Simple and Affordable Skin Care

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Speaker 13 One of my favorite sort of guilty pleasures, I go on the skincare subreddit.

Speaker 14 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 13 Just to see what people are talking about. And it's funny because I'm actually kind of like nodding proudly at people when they like use scientifically sound advice there.

Speaker 14 I'm Christine Zeer-Clissette. I'm Kyra Blackwell.

Speaker 15 I'm Rosie Guerin. And you're listening to The Wirecutter Show.

Speaker 14 This episode is called Simple and Affordable Skincare.

Speaker 4 Hi guys.

Speaker 14 Hey there. Hi.
I'm so excited about our topic today because it's all about skincare, which is kind of a new subject area for Wirecutter, right?

Speaker 14 Yeah, we have never had much on the site around this, and now we have a complete new section. So cool.
It's great.

Speaker 15 I mean, personally, I've been a skincare minimalist, but if you go on social media, there's always something.

Speaker 15 there's always something you're constantly marketed this is the best face cream this is the best vitamin c this is the thing that's going to change your life and give you a chemical facelift or whatever it's not even just instagram it's like magazines you never really know who to trust it feels like Everyone is getting paid under the table to promote different products.

Speaker 14 And I never feel like I can quite trust what I'm reading.

Speaker 14 Yeah, somebody who is like a minimalist in skincare like you, Rosie, I think that our coverage is exactly what you need because we really cut through all the noise and we try to figure out like what are the basic things that you actually need that won't break your bank and it will actually work.

Speaker 14 You know, we have like a variety of guides that we just came out with. We came out with a guide to facial moisturizers, vitamin C serums, retinols, chemical exfoliants, and body lotions.

Speaker 14 I think like the overall theme of all of these guides is that we have a lot of really affordable picks in these pieces.

Speaker 14 There are some like splurge worthy things, but a lot of things that you can buy at a drugstore, at maybe a Sephora if you're getting fancy.

Speaker 14 But by and large, it's stuff that is really, really accessible to most people. Yeah, I'm so happy that we're finally doing this.
Skincare has kind of been a latent interest of mine.

Speaker 14 I've also done a lot of reporting on sunscreen. So this intersects with some of the things that I have been reporting on and that we get to talk about today.

Speaker 14 Our first guest is Dr. Nikhil Dingra, who is a board-certified dermatologist and one of my OG sources back in the day for our facial sunscreen guide.

Speaker 14 So he's going to tell us how to determine what kind of skin you have and the most important things to keep in mind before you go out and try anything new.

Speaker 14 And then we're going to speak with Rory Evans, a senior staff writer on our beauty team here at Wirecutter.

Speaker 14 And Rory is going to talk about her testing methods and how to build an inexpensive drugstore skincare routine your skin will love and your wallet too. After the break, Dr.

Speaker 14 Dingra's expert advice for taking care of your skin. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 14 Welcome back. With us now is Dr.
Nikhil Dingra, who's a board-certified dermatologist at Spring Street Dermatology. So one quick disclosure, Dr.

Speaker 14 Dingra is actually Rosie's really good friend, but before I even met Rosie, I've used him as a source for my research on facial sunscreens multiple times. Dr.

Speaker 14 Dingra also used to read all the ingredients on skincare products as, you know, a little kid. So he's got a real love for dermatology and helping people figure out what's going on with their skin.

Speaker 14 Welcome.

Speaker 13 Thank you. Very excited to be here.

Speaker 14 I'm really excited to talk to you today because I feel like I'm going to get to get into all the nitty-gritty details that I'm always curious about.

Speaker 14 But, you know, skincare is a really hard topic to cover. It's very individual.
Everybody's skin is different.

Speaker 14 So I'd like to know, you know, from your perspective as a dermatologist, what is the single best thing that people can do for their skin?

Speaker 13 I think avoiding doing too much to it. I think the concept of like more is better, both in terms of like the number of ingredients and how much they're spending.

Speaker 13 I think those are both counterproductive.

Speaker 13 I think a very stripped down routine where you're just doing some very basic things is actually going to yield you better results than doing too much all at the same time, especially.

Speaker 14 So less is more, basically. Less is more.
And would you say that's true for all age groups? Like, you know, I'm in my 40s. I feel like that's different than Cairo, who's in her 20s.
I'm baby.

Speaker 13 Yes, I think that is generally true for all age groups. You know, I think the panic of aging definitely kicks in as you get older, but your skin also can be more sensitive as you get older.

Speaker 13 It tends to start drying out. You start making less oil.
So as a result, if you do too much to it, it's going to still work out counterproductively.

Speaker 13 I typically will tell people when you're picking picking things, be intentional.

Speaker 14 That's really good to know, but I think also like when it just comes to knowing your own skin, I feel like it's hard for people to really figure out what kind of skin they have. Is it dry?

Speaker 14 Is it combo? Is it oily?

Speaker 14 How can people figure out what kind of skin they have?

Speaker 13 It's funny. People come to the office all the time, you know, for medical appointments and they'll ask me, like, can you tell me what skin type I have? But a lot of it is subjective observation.

Speaker 13 It's kind of getting a sense, especially from a young age, of what your skin looks like, what it feels like, and also how it reacts to things in the environment and also to things that you're applying to the skin.

Speaker 13 I think getting a good sense of what your skin looks like and how it feels before you do a lot to it is kind of critical because once you start introducing one product after another, it kind of changes the dynamic also.

Speaker 14 Right. So when we last spoke, you actually told me something really surprising, which is that dry skin is more prone to being sensitive versus oily skin.

Speaker 14 Like oily skin is pretty hardy and generally you can try out more on it, right?

Speaker 13 Yeah, there is overlap. I think the skin type I actually struggle with the most in the office are like oily skin types with sensitive skin because it's a very hard combo to deal with sometimes.

Speaker 13 A lot of times dry skin tends to be prone to aggravation, especially in the age of too many active ingredients, a lot of which actually disrupt skin barriers.

Speaker 13 Having a baseline sort of oily layer of skin tends to protect the skin a little bit. It's creating a little bit of a buffer.

Speaker 13 Whereas like people who are prone to dryness, they add other things that make them drier. It starts to irritate their skin and it causes them to flare up with things like eczema, for example.

Speaker 14 Is there any difference when we talk about melanated skin or olive-toned skin in terms of the sensitivity or how you assess the skin?

Speaker 13 Yes and no.

Speaker 13 I think it changes how we approach things in terms of what ingredients to introduce, because I think obviously issues of hyperpigmentation are a little more common with more melanin in the skin.

Speaker 13 So bigger emphasis on sunscreen, for example, especially if there are other medical issues at play, things like rashes, for example, or acne.

Speaker 14 Which is really interesting because I know a lot of black people in my life are like, I don't need sunscreen. Right, right.

Speaker 13 But I think the thing is,

Speaker 13 I have melanin in my skin too. I have a bit of an olive complexion.
You get a single pimple and it can leave a dark mark for six months or longer.

Speaker 13 You get a little bit of sunlight, you know, that's going to prolong that. Preaching to the choir.

Speaker 14 Right.

Speaker 13 Our melanocytes are ready to kind of shoot out extra layers of melanin and protection, but that also is a typical response to sun exposure, no matter what.

Speaker 13 Beyond that, I don't think there's a change in sensitivity. I think things like rosacea, for example, are really underdiagnosed in skin of color.

Speaker 13 People with rosacea have very sensitive skin, they tend to be very reactive, prone to redness. And I think if you have some melanin, it's harder to assess that redness.

Speaker 13 And so, I see people all the time, they go and they buy a couple of products, and then all of a sudden they're just like not, it's not suiting them, their skin's getting redder, and it just doesn't totally work out.

Speaker 13 So, there are some things to sort of take into account, and there's some exceptions to the rule.

Speaker 14 So once you've taken this step of assessing your skin, right, kind of understanding what your skin needs, what's the next step?

Speaker 14 Are there kind of like foundational types of products you should be focused on?

Speaker 13 I think the key thing when you're trying to build a fundamental skincare routine is you have to start with the basics, a cleanser, a moisturizer, and a sunscreen that you'll like the feel of.

Speaker 13 Cleansers, first of all, I emphasize, it's very different than soap. I have people who still come to the office and they're using like a bar soap on their face.

Speaker 13 Conceptually, they're the same. They contain things called surfactants that sort of lift dirt and debris off the skin.
But soaps have a lot more. They're harsher.
They tend to be rougher on the skin.

Speaker 13 And our body can handle it in some cases, but our face is not so much. So getting a good cleanser, usually starting with something really gentle and boring and basic is kind of a good starting point.

Speaker 13 You can always tweak things in the future. After you cleanse, you want to make sure that you're repairing that skin barrier, using a moisturizer that's also suitable for your skin type.

Speaker 13 A couple of things that always drive me crazy there, things like the use of oils and fragrances and skin moisturizers. I think those are both counterproductive.
Oils are not great hydrators.

Speaker 13 You know, they're there to trap water into the skin, but a lot of good skincare products already have ingredients that do that.

Speaker 13 You know, so finding something that's not greasy, that's not going to break you out, that's not going to irritate your skin, really helpful because it encourages you to stick to that product.

Speaker 13 I think the same thing goes for sunscreen, too.

Speaker 13 You know, I'm not saying go and buy like copper tone for the beach to walk around New York City and on a day-to-day basis, you know, a good moisturizer again with the same principles that just has some SPF in it is a good start.

Speaker 14 So our skincare team at Wirecarter hasn't tested cleansers yet. That is in the works, though.
What are some good, affordable ones that you'd recommend?

Speaker 13 I think I tend to stick with the basics, you know, Cetaphil and Ceravi. And then my favorite personally, I like La Roche Pose.

Speaker 13 Oh. You know, I say like, if you want to go to the drugstore and feel a little bougie, that's kind of a good thing.

Speaker 14 I do.

Speaker 14 I like to get La Roche Pose for that reasons.

Speaker 13 Specifically, they have a product line called the Tellarian. I tend to start a lot of my patients on.
I like that line one because the ingredient list is really short. I'll switch patients off.

Speaker 13 They'll come in using like an organic cleanser or like something very clean beauty. Those clean beauty products have really long ingredient lists still.
You know, a lot of room for irritation.

Speaker 13 Whereas the Tellarian line is really short. They have a hydrating option.
They have a purifying one that's gel-based. And then they have a nice in-between creamy mousse too.

Speaker 13 So it kind of covers everyone's needs.

Speaker 14 All right, you've addressed like the holy trinity of skincare, right? It's the face wash, it's the moisturizer, it's the sunscreen. But we are all inundated constantly with so many products.

Speaker 14 Are there product categories that you think are actually worth it, things that really work?

Speaker 14 When you have somebody coming to you and asking, like, I want anti-aging or I want my skin to look better, what are the products that you recommend?

Speaker 13 I think there are a couple of non-negotiables if you're trying to start with anti-aging. And I think the first is just a retinol.
You have your moisturizer, your sunscreen, and your cleanser on board.

Speaker 13 And when I say on board, I I mean do it for a few months. Make sure you don't react to them.
A retinol just has so much evidence behind it. In medicine, we tend to think about

Speaker 13 the evidence, right? You know, where is the data strong? And I tend to look for things that are tested in humans, in actual patients. And retinol just has a lot of science behind it.

Speaker 13 Originally, it was derived for acne, but retinols are easily available over the counter. Every company has them now.
You don't need to break the bank anymore if you're trying to start here.

Speaker 13 We know that it has lots of perks. It helps with acne, especially in prescription prescription form.
It helps with fine lines and wrinkles because it stimulates collagen production.

Speaker 13 It sort of inhibits the breakdown of your skin supportive structure, something called the extracellular matrix. It helps with hyperpigmentation issues and melasma.
It helps with sun damage.

Speaker 13 Also, there's some data to suggest that retinoids in particular, which are prescription strength, seem to combat some of the sort of damage done by sun, so potentially cancer protective effects too.

Speaker 13 So really, there's such a body of evidence to suggest that that's helpful.

Speaker 13 I think it sort of drives me up the wall sometimes when someone tries to start other things that are not driven as much by data, and they end up irritating themselves, and then they don't give themselves a chance with something like a retinol.

Speaker 13 So that's always step number one, especially when you're starting to think about anti-aging, maybe in like your 20s.

Speaker 14 Can you explain the difference between a retinol and a retinoid?

Speaker 13 Most retinoids tend to require a prescription, an exception being something like adapiline or different over-the-counter.

Speaker 13 People will interchange the two terms all the time, but a retinol is much milder in terms of intensity.

Speaker 13 It's a great target for someone looking for fine lines and wrinkles, something that maybe won't aggravate their skin too much, but it's not going to do a lot when you're dealing with things like acne.

Speaker 13 On average, I'd say a retinoid is at least 20 times stronger than a retinol.

Speaker 13 If someone hasn't started with anything, start with a retinol first, unless you're dealing with specific medical issues like acne, in which case you'd want to see a professional.

Speaker 14 So beyond a retinoid or a retinol, what are the other products that you'd recommend?

Speaker 13 Vitamin C, probably second in line. I don't think it's a must-have.
First of all, there's a lot of variation in quality. I think there's a lot of hype behind it.

Speaker 13 There's not a lot of data to support it in general.

Speaker 14 Interesting.

Speaker 13 We do know that there is some benefit to collagen production. We know that it has antioxidant benefits.
And antioxidant benefits typically help people, especially when they have a lot of sun damage.

Speaker 13 We know that vitamin C can help clear up things like melasma or marks from acne.

Speaker 13 But at the same time, vitamin C is an acid, and acids and things like retinols don't always play well together.

Speaker 13 So I think prioritizing a vitamin C over a retinol is still not necessarily the order I would go.

Speaker 13 It's a nice to have once you're doing a retinoid consistently. One of my favorite sort of guilty pleasures, I go on the skincare subreddit

Speaker 13 just to see what people are talking about. And it's funny because I'm actually kind of like nodding proudly at people when they like use scientifically sound advice there.

Speaker 13 You see people reacting all the time in like very specific patterns. Some people get eczema-like reactions.
Some people get rosacea flare-ups because of the potential irritation factor there.

Speaker 13 And then the other thing is a lot of vitamin Cs are often oil-based. And

Speaker 13 I said earlier, I don't like oil-based ingredients in general because it's hard to predict what it'll do to people's skin.

Speaker 14 What do you think about exfoliance?

Speaker 13 I think exfoliance can be done in moderation. A retinol is an exfoliant, for example, right? Beyond that, I tend to prefer chemical exfoliants over physical exfoliants.

Speaker 13 You know, physical exfoliants are things like the sainives. Yes.
I think we all had a phase of using at some point.

Speaker 14 Middle school, me love

Speaker 14 saint eyes.

Speaker 13 Yeah, but turns out you're just making micro-injuries to the skin. You're creating a lot of trauma.

Speaker 13 It really induces sort of a reactivity if your skin is very sensitive, but certainly very abrasive, very harsh. And that abrasiveness then decreases your ability to tolerate anything else.

Speaker 13 The classic case is someone says, oh, I've been using this and now I put everything on, like a moisturizer burns. Like I've had people say aquaphore burns.

Speaker 13 It's pretty hard for something like aquifer to cause a skin irritation. Yeah.
You know, so once you get to that point, your barrier is very disrupted.

Speaker 13 And physically scrubbing the skin is a great shortcut to doing that.

Speaker 14 I mean, I have to fight myself whenever I have a minor breakout to not just try a bunch of different things. I just want something to fix it.

Speaker 14 But what would you recommend people do if they're trying a new product? Like, how long should they realistically wait to see it actually working?

Speaker 13 Officially, they'll tell you a month by I say three months at least. One, you can react to things at any time.
You know, a lot of it is actually irritation. It's not an allergic reaction.

Speaker 13 I get people all the time who say, oh, I tried that. I was allergic to it.
That's only about one in five reactions. Four out of five times, you're just irritated.

Speaker 13 Something just set a switch off, whether it's maybe you're using a product and it was fine until it got really cold outside, or maybe you went and added a second ingredient and it caused an issue.

Speaker 13 So start with a product every three months. See how you do first.
There's no rush to any of this. And once you're starting to see the benefits, then you can start to introduce other things.

Speaker 13 And that's true, whether it's over-the-counter product or if it's something prescription-grade that your dermatologist prescribed.

Speaker 14 I find that there's a lot of ads for hyaluronic acid. What do you think about hyaluronic acid?

Speaker 13 Yeah, so hyaluronic acid inherently is what we call a humectant. It's designed to draw water to the skin, but it's a little bit overhyped in terms of the science.

Speaker 13 There's not a lot of good data to suggest that they work the way that they claim they do.

Speaker 13 And I think beyond that, a good basic basic moisturizer, a lot of the drugstore companies, they already include hyaluronic acid in their ingredient list.

Speaker 13 So it almost just feels like an extraneous like sort of part of your routine, like a self-care routine to do that. But if you're doing a moisturizer with it, it's already unnecessary.

Speaker 13 The ingredient you're often looking for is something like sodium hyaluronate, which is on the ingredient lists in a lot of these products.

Speaker 13 And if that already has it in there, and if you have like a ceramide, which is an inclusive, you already have multiple things in one. You don't need multiple products then.

Speaker 14 Which you mentioned earlier, Ceravay. They're just regular moisturizer has all those things in it.
It does. It does.
And I think that's one of our wire cutter picks.

Speaker 14 And it's like you can get like a ginormous jug of it for $10 or something. So cheap.

Speaker 13 I like cost efficacy.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 13 I think the other thing is these drugstore brands actually do a lot of R ⁇ D. They do a lot of testing.

Speaker 13 And they don't. necessarily have the need to add things like fragrances and other additives that I think we historically and psychologically associate with being luxurious, right?

Speaker 13 But those things cost money for a company to include, number one.

Speaker 13 Two, you're then also paying for the marketing behind these companies that maybe they're not selling in as much volume, but they're selling it in designer stores or it's Sephora.

Speaker 13 But again, these things then work against us in terms of our skin quality.

Speaker 14 I can say from my child who watches YouTube skincare videos all the time that very complicated skincare routines seem to be very popular, right?

Speaker 14 Like the 10-step, 12-step, 20-step, the fancy new trend. But you said earlier, keeping it simple is the important thing, right?

Speaker 13 Be intentional with what you're doing to your skin. Every ingredient you introduce, you introduce a layer of potential irritation.
And it also takes away from your ability to tolerate things.

Speaker 13 So if you want to go and enjoy skincare, it's often counterproductive to do that much to your skin because you're actually working away from being able to handle it as you get older, too. Right.

Speaker 13 Right.

Speaker 13 Like if you start at 10 years old and you're doing a 20-step skincare routine, what's going to happen at 20 when you're sensitive to a lot of ingredients, or maybe you developed an allergy to something?

Speaker 14 Oh, so it's like you've become sensitized to these ingredients and then you can't handle them anymore. Right.

Speaker 13 Actually, I say this all the time to patients. A lot of times patients will come and they'll say, I have sensitive skin.
I actually don't think a lot of people have sensitive skin.

Speaker 13 I think a lot of people sensitize their skin.

Speaker 13 I think they get into the sort of the fallacy of doing too much.

Speaker 13 And then what happens is they end up reacting to things. You know, I think there are definitely a pool of people who have sensitive skin and you can kind of identify them.

Speaker 13 they turn red, they get breakouts, they get scaly rashes, but that's not a large percent of people. Most of of us tend to have fairly neutral skin.

Speaker 13 It's just when we start to do too much to it that we start to run into issues. And kids in particular, their barriers are not fully formed yet.

Speaker 13 So those irritants and allergens are more likely to penetrate deeper into the skin. And not to knock like kids doing a routine, getting them into the habit of washing their faces.

Speaker 13 Again, a cleanser, a moisturizer, and sunscreen, I can't knock them doing that at the age of even nine, right?

Speaker 13 Getting a teenage boy to wash their face even once a day is wonderful, right?

Speaker 13 be it would be a major win right there if we got them to start cleaning uh you know the greasiness and the dirt because it'll help them down the line not to genderize skincare but i've just i've dated many a man who you still use like dials dial dial or irish spring i don't get that bottle of ceramé you know dial hand soap for their face

Speaker 14 Above all else, keep it simple. You want a good cleanser, a good moisturizer, and a great sunscreen that you will use every single day.

Speaker 14 But if you want to spice things up a little bit, then you can add on a retinol, which you can get over the counter for fairly cheap.

Speaker 14 And that can do wonders for your skin, but you have to give it time. Same goes with vitamin C, pretty good, but you're going to want to set your expectations a little bit lower.

Speaker 14 We're going to take a quick break, and when we're back, we're going to talk about Wirecutter skincare coverage with senior staff writer Rory Evans. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 14 Welcome back. Before the break, we dove really deep with Dr.
Nikhil Dingra about how to build a simple skincare routine and the products that actually work.

Speaker 14 Now we're going to get into the products Wirecutter has actually tested.

Speaker 14 We've finally taken the plunge into testing skincare and it shouldn't be surprising that we found some really great picks and many are really, really affordable, which is so great to hear.

Speaker 14 Here to talk with us now is Rory Evans. She's WireCutter's skincare writer who's been covering this area for over 20 years.
She's also previously worked at Allure, Real Simple, and Martha Stewart.

Speaker 14 Rory, welcome to the show. Thank you.
It's really nice to have you here. You just came out with guides to facial moisturizers, exfoliants, retinols, and vitamin C.
Right.

Speaker 14 So as you approached the testing and kind of determining what would be the recommended products in our guides, how did you make sure that the things that we're recommending will be useful and applicable to as wide a group of people as possible?

Speaker 14 I start any guide by going to Sephora, Target, CVS, Walgreens, a local family-owned pharmacy.

Speaker 14 And I'm just like writing down names, snapping pictures and paying attention to like, oh, that's like a low shelf and looks kind of dusty, but like, what's that brand?

Speaker 14 Or also like, what's sold out at Target? Because clearly that's kind of a good clue. And then

Speaker 14 I also ask wirecutter staffers, what do you use? What have you loved? What have you used and hated? What have you used and sort of outgrown?

Speaker 14 Or what have you brought into your skincare as you've gotten older? And then also talk to a couple cosmetic chemists, three, sometimes four dermatologists get there,

Speaker 14 what to look for. And then you go online and you read so many reviews.
Again, approaching it like a shopper, but almost like a full-time shopper, like someone who

Speaker 14 really just digs into and goes to the 10th page of the reviews and all those things that I think all of us at Wirecutter kind of look at.

Speaker 14 I know when I'm testing sunscreens, like I will do the same process. I will go through and I'll try out all these sunscreens myself.

Speaker 14 And then when I finally eliminate enough to maybe a group of four, five, six sunscreens, then I will send it out to other Wirecutter staffers to test and what we call panel testing.

Speaker 14 So what number do you usually look to narrow it down to before you start group testing your picks? I test more than five.

Speaker 14 But I panel test more than five because we usually send to

Speaker 14 different skin types. I will maybe have a couple different panels, like dry skin, sensitive skin, oily skin.
And then each of those panels gets four or five to test.

Speaker 14 And what do you usually ask them to look for when they're testing? Perceived benefits. Like, how do you feel this is working? How do you enjoy using it? Is it easy to use?

Speaker 14 What are the overall vibes?

Speaker 14 Do you hate the fragrance? Sometimes fragrance-free products still have an aroma to them because they don't have masking agents. I also just ask them, like, what am I forgetting to ask you?

Speaker 14 You know, when you have wet hands, Is this cap too small to actually deal with?

Speaker 14 And one thing that I can only imagine that some listeners might be wondering, because I think in the sort of cosmetic world,

Speaker 14 there's a lot of freebies that happen. Like I think even with dermatologists, they're sent things for free.
How does that play in to how we test?

Speaker 14 Are you ever taking a product that a company is pushing towards you? Or is it truly just going out as a shopper and saying, these are the things that we think shoppers will be most interested in?

Speaker 14 Yeah, it's that. And sometimes like a publicist will say,

Speaker 14 oh, like you're, I'm going to send you such and such moisturizer, but I have three other brands and they have great moisturizers. I'm going to send those to you too.
And I'm like, no, please don't.

Speaker 14 Like I just can't accept it.

Speaker 15 I imagine, Rory, and correct me if I'm wrong, but we hear from a lot of wire cutter experts that the testing they do is brand concealed.

Speaker 15 Was that the case with you where you're doing this panel testing and you're removing the labels?

Speaker 14 I don't like my first interaction is with the labels. The products that I send to the panels are usually brand concealed.
I tape over anything that says the brand name.

Speaker 14 But I love how you also split up your panel testers based off of their skin type.

Speaker 14 I wanted to ask too about people, specifically with melanated skin, because I feel like the skincare industry has historically just kind of overlooked that category of people.

Speaker 14 Do you take that into account when you are testing for different skincare products? And have you found that melanated skin does react differently to some products?

Speaker 14 We definitely take into account when I'm sending stuff stuff to panel, I want panels to be age inclusive, like skin type inclusive, and also like black women, white women, men, someone who has a beard, stuff, you know, the various things.

Speaker 14 So we do take that into account a lot. Like we loved, there was a face cream that we tried and we loved it, or two of us loved it.
And then a third tester who has melanade skin, she loved the feel.

Speaker 14 She loved the vibe. And she was like, it made my skin look gray all day.
And we were like, oh, like, that can't be a pick.

Speaker 14 Earlier in the show, we talked with Dr. Dingra, our expert dermatologist, about how there's basically like a holy trinity of face care products.

Speaker 14 And those include face wash, moisturizer, and sunscreen. So let's talk a little bit about what you did with moisturizer.

Speaker 14 What was your team looking for when you were testing moisturizers and what should people know about them?

Speaker 14 Oh, we were looking for very specific ingredients because the other thing is that there's hundreds of them out there. And they're all like

Speaker 14 very close in experience, or they all kind of look the same, or they all feel the same. So we dug into the ingredients and looked at ingredient panels on that.

Speaker 14 And we talked to a dermatologist, and they said, look for glycerin, squalene, niacinamide, ceramides.

Speaker 14 These are all sort of like very moisturizing ingredients that will keep water in your skin, attract moisture to your skin. Those are the ingredients we really looked for.

Speaker 14 And we kind of made sure that, like, everything that we recommend has at least a good number of these ingredients. How much did packaging play into it?

Speaker 14 One of my biggest pet peeves is: like, I can feel there is more in the bottle, but I can't get to it. Like, if I have a pump bottle, how did you assess packaging?

Speaker 15 I've done like projects where I'm like slicing open

Speaker 15 pump bottles with a bread knife, and I'm like, there's got to be a better way.

Speaker 14 We definitely considered packaging. I want to say for the moisturizers, a number of them are in tubes.
Some of them are in tubs that have a pump.

Speaker 14 Obviously, you just take the lid off and do the thing where you're kind of like scraping. And that's nice.
Yeah.

Speaker 14 In this episode, Rory, we're really making an argument that you don't need to overspend on skincare. And in the guides you've written, there are products with a wide range of prices.

Speaker 14 And I don't know about you, but I always love doing kind of like a high-low and understanding what you get at different price points.

Speaker 14 So I'm hoping that you can tell us a little bit specifically for moisturizers, what is the least expensive and what is the most expensive and kind of what are the differences between those?

Speaker 14 The most expensive is the Augustinis Bader, which is recommended by all beautiful celebrities everywhere. It's in a beautiful blue bottle and it's like $300.
Yeah, it's incredibly expensive.

Speaker 14 More than a few.

Speaker 14 Wire cutter staffers recommended it, sort of said it's a holy grail. What was the low end that you recommend in that guide? We have a

Speaker 14 Vanna cream in that guide.

Speaker 14 And it's funny because I, the one that I have and I've been using it this winter is it still has the price tag on it from my local like mom and pop pharmacy and it's $7.99.

Speaker 14 Yeah. So you could go anywhere from $7.99

Speaker 14 to around $300

Speaker 14 within our picks. But in the delta between those prices, what are you getting for that $300 versus the $7.99? Are you getting an actual like improvement in what it's going to do to your skin?

Speaker 14 Or is it more about the experience of using it? I would say it's the experience. The other thing is that like some people, it's their self-care, it's their splurge, it's like,

Speaker 14 you know, it's like how they feel special. Like moisturizer always fits.
It doesn't matter if you've gained weight, lost weight, whatever. You can spend money on it, use it, feel great about it.

Speaker 14 There's value to the way something is going to make you feel.

Speaker 14 Now, if you're kind of like me and just like to spreadsheet everything and you can separate your emotions from it, you could go with the $7.99 Vanicreme. For sure.
Okay.

Speaker 14 And with the Vanicreme, one of the panel testers said that she wanted to put her VannaCreme in an empty high-end bottle

Speaker 14 so that she could like... She could feel more special.
Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 15 Okay, Rory, let's talk about retinols. Okay.

Speaker 14 Talk about your picks.

Speaker 15 I also want to know. How did your skin survive all of this testing?

Speaker 14 My skin survived all this testing because I was using so much moisturizer. I've used more moisturizer since starting this job than I have probably in the six years prior to this.

Speaker 14 I just use so much moisturizer. I can't.

Speaker 15 Can I picture a bucket where you're like bobbing for apples into moisturizer?

Speaker 14 A little bit.

Speaker 15 All right, so retinols.

Speaker 15 Talk to me about your picks.

Speaker 14 For retinols, we have varying strengths. We chose Skin Medica.
We love that for the stronger, the 1.0 strength of it. And how much does that cost?

Speaker 14 The price creeps up as the strength of the retinol creeps up. That's for the stronger one, it's 90 in the 90s somewhere, maybe in the 80s.
What's on the low end? The low end is Trader Joe's, $9.99.

Speaker 14 Wow. Wow.
That is 0.3. To clarify, for this guide, you tested retinols, not retinoids.
So you tested retinols, the over-the-counter type of retinol that's like a precursor to a retinoid, right? Yes.

Speaker 14 Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. We wouldn't test a prescription.
The prescription strength. All right.
So let's talk about the last category that you tested, which was vitamin C.

Speaker 14 We just talked to Dr. Dingra about this, about how he does recommend it, but that he thinks it's kind of overrated in general.
And I think you found something similar in your research. Absolutely.

Speaker 14 Yeah. I want to say every

Speaker 14 dermatologist, every cosmetic chemist that I spoke to for that guide was like, asterisk, caveat, it's sort of overrated, or promises are huge. The delivery is not quite that.

Speaker 14 And it's really better for prevention than the cure. Yeah.
So what is your high end? What is your low end? Oh, our high end is scheme cuticals. And that one.
What? It's like $180.

Speaker 14 Oh my God.

Speaker 14 It's just like a little tiny bottle. Really? We wouldn't be talking about vitamin C and the dermatologists would not be talking about vitamin C except for skinceuticals.

Speaker 14 I really feel like it created this category. Is the $180, like, what are you getting for that $180? Why did people like it so much?

Speaker 14 They liked it because it was, and again, it was sort of like hidden, taped, and people had no idea, but they liked how it felt. They liked how it absorbed.

Speaker 14 They liked how it made their skin look as they used it.

Speaker 14 When you're really paying that much more for the product, if you don't know what you're testing, like your panel testers didn't know, would you say that they would rate the skin ceuticals as the obvious winner of the test?

Speaker 14 Or are there cheaper options that are like pretty much just as good? There were definitely more affordable options that people really liked. And people like things for different reasons.

Speaker 14 And the other thing that's worth noting is that skinceuticals smells a little bit funky. It doesn't smell great.
So

Speaker 14 there were other, like, I want to say the La Roche Pose kind of looks similar to that. And some people thought it smelled better.
And how much does that one cost? I want to say that one's like $38.

Speaker 14 And the Naturium was like, I want to say it's less than $20. People really like it.
It's a squeeze. It's a kind of a dewy drop.
It's not as runny. It's not, you don't use like a dropper.

Speaker 14 It's not like you're feeding a baby bird with it. And

Speaker 14 also the timeless. The timeless is really close, formula-wise, to the skin cuticals.
And how much is that one? $26.

Speaker 14 You don't have to spend a lot of money to get something that works for you.

Speaker 14 Before we wrap, we usually ask all of our guests one one final question. What's the last thing you bought that you've really loved?

Speaker 14 I bought some East Fork pottery, some bowls, and it's this great like Asheville company. And I make this salad that looks so beautiful in this blue bowl that it actually makes me want to eat salad.

Speaker 14 It's serving so many purposes for me, but it's just really beautiful and I'm really happy with it.

Speaker 15 To recap, pick the skincare that you'll actually use and pick pottery you'll actually eat salad from.

Speaker 14 It's the secret to life. Exactly.
I don't think there's ever going to be a bowl that pretty for me.

Speaker 15 Rory, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate you.

Speaker 14 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 15 Y'all, that was a jam-packed episode. Skincare from all directions.

Speaker 14 The great thing, though, is that both of our experts really agreed on a lot of things just around the kind of value of the drugstore stuff yeah i learned so much what are your takeaways for this one my takeaway is that you really need to go slow and steady and i will be the first person to admit that i'm impatient when it comes to all things but definitely with skincare you want something like you want to buy a product and then it works the next day like your skin is just glowy beautiful and everything has changed in your life and you're beautiful but this is really one of those things that you have to give it time at least three months so you just have to be patient i think mine is similar the sort of behavioral side of things, where

Speaker 15 whatever you do, know yourself, reach for things that you actually are going to use. So maybe that might mean spending a little bit more, and maybe that might be spending a little bit less.

Speaker 15 Maybe that might mean reaching for something that's a texture that you actually like and are going to incorporate rather than something sort of aspirational.

Speaker 15 Because at the end of the day, using the product is what is going to help you see results, whatever the product is.

Speaker 14 Yeah, I agree with that. And I also think that in the world of active ingredients, there are only kind of like a few that you really should focus on.
It's like those retinoids, maybe the vitamin C.

Speaker 14 Personally, I'm going to keep using my Cerave face wash and moisturizer, which I've used for years.

Speaker 14 But I also, I think I'm going to reach a little fancier, a little higher at the drugstore for the French products, the La Roche Posé, that seem to be

Speaker 14 quite a bit yes.

Speaker 14 So fancy.

Speaker 14 So I think I'll be trying it. I've tried some of their, I like their sunscreen.
I like their hyaluronic acid. So I think I'm going to try their face moisturizer next time.
Love that.

Speaker 15 If you want to find out more about WireCutter's skincare coverage, if you want to check out any of the products that Rory,

Speaker 15 Dr. Dingra mentioned today, go to nytimes.com/slash wirecutter or you can find a link in the show notes.

Speaker 14 That's it for us.

Speaker 15 That's it for skincare.

Speaker 14 We'll be back next week talking about plants.

Speaker 15 Thanks for listening.

Speaker 14 The Wirecutter Show is executive produced by Rosie Guerin and produced by Abigail Keel. Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman.
Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson.

Speaker 14 Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia Boat YouTube, and Diane Wong.

Speaker 14 Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager is Cliff Levy. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's Editor-in-Chief.
I'm Kyra Blackwell. I'm Christine Searclissette.

Speaker 15 And I'm Rosie Guerin.

Speaker 14 Thanks for listening.

Speaker 14 We say that you really shouldn't be doing it on the same night. Well, I'm not doing it.

Speaker 14 I'm definitely doing it on the same night.

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