Gifts for the Hard-to-Please

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From the New York Times, you're listening to The Wirecutter Show.

Hey, everyone, it's The Wirecutter Show.

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

I'm Christine Sear-Clissette.

And I'm Rosie Guerin, and we work at Wirecutter, the product recommendation site from the New York Times.

Each week, we bring you expert advice from our newsroom of 140 journalists who review everyday products that will make your life better.

This episode of The Wirecutter Cutter Show is called Gifts for the Hard to Please.

Christine, do you think you're a hard person to shop for?

Oh, I am totally a hard person to shop for.

I'm a terrible person to shop for.

I have so many strong opinions.

I honestly get enraged when I get a gift that I don't like.

That's funny.

That's really funny.

I actually have a reputation at work for throwing away things that I don't like.

Well, then this episode is for anyone who's who's ever had to buy Christine's Search Closet.

Absolutely.

I feel sorry for my kids when they're adults and I'm going to be like that person.

They tell stories.

They're going to call into this podcast.

They're going to be like people calling into this podcast.

Well, I ask this because if you've been into a CBS lately, you know we're coming up on the holiday season and it's time to think about ideally good gifts.

So last week we talked with Hannah Morrill, our gift editor here at Wirecutter, about some general rules to follow for gifting, particularly for affordable gifts.

This week, we're going more advanced.

We're tackling gifts for the impossible to buy for people in your life.

People like, gosh, I don't know, Christine, who have everything they want.

The bar is really high.

You got to knock it out of the park.

Yeah.

I mean, for me, it's like, if I have all the stuff I want, I need to be delighted by the, by the things that people are going to give me.

I know that's like a very privileged place to sit.

The bar could never get any higher than that, though.

That's the, that's the hard part.

There's so much pressure and you don't know what the rules are.

And like, I don't know.

I don't know about you, Christine, but I feel like if you get one good gift one year, you have to continue topping it for the rest of your life.

Up and up and up and up.

So today we'll build on the rules we talked about last week, the rules of thumb.

And we'll talk about finding good gifts for these impossible to buy for people in our lives.

The classic lineup, grandparents, dads, Christine, picky siblings, spouses, Christine, friends who have everything, Christine, et cetera.

Did you mention me?

Sorry, it's in my script here.

Christine.

And because we didn't want to just sit in the studio and toss them around to each other, we're not the experts on this subject.

We did decide to open up the discussion to our listeners.

That's right.

I mean, we aren't the experts, but we do have strong opinions.

Oh, I do.

I have strong opinions.

Always.

We asked listeners of the Wire Cutter Show to send us stories about the trickiest people in their lives, the people who are hardest to shop for.

To field those questions, we've brought in a special guest, Samantha Shea.

She's not only a writer on Wirecutter's gift team, she's a fiction writer, a parent, and an incredibly thoughtful gift giver.

And a lovely human and likes to receive really lovely and delightful gifts.

So is also thinking about giving lovely and delightful gifts.

That's right.

And I would trust anything that Samantha recommends.

Honestly, she's got great taste.

After the break, Sam will tackle your toughest gift questions.

We're going to see if we can stump her.

I would love to stump her, honestly.

Not that that's her job, but...

But it's like a good goal.

Yeah.

We're working towards a goal in this episode.

Yeah.

This is the Wirecutter Show, and we will be right back.

The Wirecutter Show is supported by Rocket Mortgage.

Your home is an active investment, not a passive one.

And with Rocket Mortgage, you can put your home equity to work right away.

When you unlock your home equity, you unlock new doors for your family.

Renovations, extensions, even buying your next property.

Get started today with smarter tools and guidance from real mortgage experts.

Find out how at rocketmortgage.com.

RocketMortgage LLC, licensed in 50 states, nmlsconsumeraccess.org, 3030.

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Welcome back to the Wire Cutter Show.

Our guest today is Samantha Shea.

Samantha is a staff writer on our gift team, and she's written about some esoteric gift topics, like gifts for travelers, coffee lovers, pickleball players, co-workers, engagement gifts, and gifts for people who love to clean.

Who is that?

I want to know.

I don't know.

My mom?

Yeah, Sam also spends almost every day of the year researching and on the hunt for gifts.

So, this is her whole bread and butter.

Welcome, Sam.

Thank you so much.

I'm excited.

Sam, first of all, it is so cool that your whole job is just gifting.

Over the last few weeks, we've put out a call to our listeners of the Wirecutter Show, basically just asking for stories about the people in their lives who are impossible to buy gifts for.

And we knew that we were already going to redirect these questions to you because this is not our wheelhouse.

It's yours.

So you're really good at gifts.

We want to get into it.

Great.

I'm ready.

All right.

Well, perhaps unsurprisingly, we got a huge number of calls.

People need your help, Sam.

So I think we should jump right in.

Here is our first call.

You ready?

Hello, Wirecutter.

So my spouse is a very good gift giver.

She always gets me thoughtful and surprising presents, and she has really good taste.

And I really struggle to reach a bar set that high.

I'm pretty forgetful.

So I've tried keeping lists for when she mentions stuff throughout the year, but it's all just so utilitarian.

I know she loves big gestures like a surprise trip or something handmade, but this year, money and time are both very tight.

So I'm wondering if you have any ideas to help think about this better or just suggestions for good gifts.

Thank you.

Oh man, I think this is a really good place to start.

So clearly this, this person, he has a spouse who is great at gifting and he's trying to raise the bar on his own gifting.

Sam, how would you guide him thinking through what to get his wife?

So first of all, a lot of people are in this situation where they feel like their partner is really good and they struggle.

And a lot of people really, truly struggle with gift giving.

It causes them anxiety.

It makes them feel all sorts of ways about themselves that they don't want to feel.

It brings up money.

It's like, you know, it can be an emotional thing.

But for this listener, he mentions that she brings up utilitarian stuff.

I think that's a good place to start, actually, because it lets us know that she likes stuff that has some sort of use.

So I would think about for her like really nice upgrades to stuff that you already use or know she needs, like aesthetic or luxury upgrades to a coffee pot.

We have these regular old French presses on the site.

And then we have like these beautiful aesthetic brushed stainless steel French presses, if that's our thing.

Or we have a new guide on robes that's about to come out.

And I happen to be testing the linen robe on that list and it's so nice.

I love it so much.

What's the brand?

Rough linen.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

I love them.

Which is, we, I love them too.

And they're, they're a new pick for us.

So So like, you know, those are utilitarian, but they can also be luxury.

A beautiful new kitchen knife, like, but a really nice one.

Anything like that that's, that has a use, but also has an aesthetic value or sort of a luxury feel.

So that's a place to start.

And then also when he talks about personalized, like we have an entire gift guide of personalized gifts.

So if he's thinking about that literally, personalized stuff is both a gift and a gesture that says like, I thought ahead and I thought of you and and I had this made for you.

So there's all sorts of great stuff.

There's like a handwriting cuff bracelet where you can write something and then it's engraved on the bracelet in your handwriting.

And you can also do it with somebody like say who's past.

Like you could do a parent or a grandparent.

There's also this great retro viewfinder.

You hold it to your eyes and you click through like the viewmaster for those of you who are old enough to remember that.

But you can get personalized ones.

So you create a reel of photos and they click through and it's like an old-fashioned viewfinder slideshow, but it's photos that you've put together.

And it is sweet.

I actually have one because I tested it and it's sitting like on a stack of books in my living room.

Every single person who comes over to my house picks that thing up and looks at it.

Oh, that's so fun.

Yeah.

If you're really going personalized, I love that category of gift and I think we have a lot of good ideas on the site.

When I hear personalized, I automatically assume it's going to cost more because it's a very specific thing.

But can you find personalized gifts that are still well within budget?

Absolutely.

50,

under 100, maybe.

Absolutely.

Oh, yeah.

Everything I just named is under 100 and in some cases, under 50.

Lovely.

If we, I mean, we have a straw, like a drinking straw that you can get someone's name spelled out in that's under 20.

So, yeah.

Sam, for your suggestion on utilitarian gifts, I'm wondering if there's anything to keep in mind giving a spouse who might be the one who is doing the cooking, the one who is doing the cleaning, giving them the utilitarian gift.

Is there anything worth avoiding there or sort of swinging in the other direction so that you're not sending the message of like, Go make me breakfast?

Yeah, I bought you a knife.

Right.

You can chop the garlic for my meal tonight.

Okay, 100%.

I mean, we all know the cliche of like the 1950s husband giving his wife a vacuum cleaner for Christmas, right?

Like, don't do that.

Do not give anyone a vacuum cleaner.

I forgot to mention that rule.

You don't want to give someone anything that's chore-related.

You want to give something that's joy-related.

So, when I say utilitarian, like I mentioned, a coffee, like if they're into coffee, give them that.

If they're not, don't.

You know, if they really like to cook and appreciate really nice utensils and tools, then give them an excellent knife.

If cooking is a chore, don't do that.

So, you have to definitely be aware of that.

You just, you have to know your, your recipient.

I think about this with little kids' gifts because I'm right in that pocket right now.

And I genuinely think very rigorously about whether I'm giving the parents work where I'm like, okay, you know, do I get them this kinetic sand kit?

Their kid is going to have a lot of fun with it.

It's going to press and keep together, right?

It couldn't possibly be actual sand that goes everywhere around their house and then they're going to have to vacuum it.

And then never.

the answer is always no for me.

All right, let's roll into another listener question.

I'm Wirecutter.

My name is Kelly and I'm calling from Philadelphia.

The person who I'm struggling to get a gift for is my best friend.

She lives in a tiny studio apartment and doesn't have a ton of room for more stuff.

You might say buy her an experience, but the ones that I can find are too expensive.

Or you might say get her a gift card, card, which is not a bad idea, but I'm looking for something more creative.

So she likes coffee, vintage flashwork, and the outdoors, and dislikes bright and pastel colors, Taylor Swift, and cluttered Newport's face.

Can you help me out with this one?

Thank you.

I really like that she put in that detail about how her friend does not like Taylor Swift.

But this is a great question.

And I think it's probably one that's relevant for a lot of people.

The desire to get somebody something that, you know, you care about, you want it to be a great gift, but not wanting to to spend a lot of money and not wanting to get them something that will clutter their space

Sam what is your advice for Kelly so experiential gifts are a little bit hard for us to land on at Wirecutter because we're a national publication so we can't send someone to a specific spa or restaurant or hiking trail or anything like that but there are ideas of how to create your own that would work anywhere and I just got this great idea from a Wirecutter reader.

Money is the main concern when it comes for her, this woman that I was talking to when it comes to gift buying.

For a lot of people.

Yeah, exactly.

For most people.

It's a huge part of the equation.

But like Kelly, she wanted to do something really meaningful for her friends.

So

she got a tea subscription service for both of them.

And then when the teas would arrive, they would do like a Zoom call or a Google meet and taste the tea together.

But it was really an excuse to get together once a month and connect because they didn't live in the same place.

And I was like, oh, that's kind of genius.

I love that idea.

So you could do that around anything that you have in common.

It could be tea, it could be books, it could be chocolate.

So I like the idea of a subscription for that that you can share.

And that can get expensive, but you could also put it together yourself if a subscription service was too expensive.

And some subscription services, they will allow you to buy a one-off box, right?

Absolutely.

So you could just do it one time if you don't want to have an ongoing cost every month, right?

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, they sell in brick and mortar and online tea sampler sets.

So you could just do it that way if tea is the thing.

But I think the idea of combining something that is an experience, not a material good, and an excuse to connect with someone who lives far away is a really great idea.

I love that.

I might be scaling that.

Yeah, me too.

One of my favorite wire cutter recommendations for a food basket is the Baksu Japanese snacks.

I love that.

Me too.

And I send those to my nieces and nephews.

So maybe I'll do that with my kids too, and they can all

have snacks.

Okay.

No, no.

That's such a good idea.

What are some other ideas that you have for Kelly?

So another thing that comes to mind right off the bat is consumables, not only like a one-off edible of food, but something like a book that, you know, that you have picked out that has some personal relevance.

And you could be like my aunt Cynthia, who will not give a book without inscribing it.

It's kind of old-fashioned, but I love it so much.

And I have books throughout my life inscribed from my aunt.

So, or even like nice skincare, you know, something that is nice, but she will use it up and it's not going to clutter her house.

I like that.

Sam, dads?

Can we talk about dads?

Let's talk about dads.

Dads can be difficult to shop for.

Either they have everything, they want nothing.

I'm, I guess, speaking about my dad.

And mine.

Oh, and your dad, yeah.

What is a good, safe gift for a dad?

Okay.

First of all, I know we want to, but we can't actually talk about dads as a single category.

Because, for example, my dad is a nearly 82-year-old guy who lives in rural Vermont.

But my kid's dad is a 52-year-old guy who lives in the city.

So, you know, dads

are not a monolith.

You know, we joke all the time about like barbecue stuff and whiskey stones.

Like, that is such the easy way out.

Or a toolbox.

Yeah.

My dad would not want.

any of those things.

Neither would mine.

My dad wouldn't know a whiskey stone.

Like, and my dad likes whiskey, but no.

My go-to for my dad is books and booze.

So he likes to read, he likes to drink.

That's what I get him.

But I think the sweet spot is to kind of straddle something that he already loves, but needs an upgrade on.

I was just visiting my dad last weekend in Vermont and his tattered old ratty slippers are truly pathetic.

So I could get him an upgrade of something he already has.

Same with like flannel shirts.

He's a Vermonter.

He wears a lot of flannel shirts.

They're tattered and faded.

And I could get him an upgrade.

So it's not like reinventing the the wheel.

It's kind of just paying attention to stuff that you know they use, you know they like, and they're just really bad at buying themselves new versions or upgrading their tattered old stuff.

That rings very true to me.

I know some men and dads who are happy to buy themselves things that they want, but I know a lot of them that just like that.

They'll wear like the shirt until there's holes in it or the slippers until there's a hole in the toe or whatever.

So I think I might steal that idea.

But I feel like, not to make this all about me and put you in the hot seat, but my dad is the kind of person who likes nice things and will constantly be upgrading this stuff when it's like out of use.

So I find that it's really hard to get him anything tangible.

We have to go for experiences and I've run out of ideas.

I think people who like nice things are actually the easiest people to buy for because you can get them beautiful things.

And that's my way.

I like.

beautiful thing.

I don't like clutter.

I don't like junk, but I really like beautiful designy things.

I think that's my gift to my family is that I'm just give me something beautiful and expensive.

You know, I'm so easy.

Right.

Well, what does your dad like?

Oh, man.

Yeah, he just likes fancy stuff.

Get him a really nice Yeti cooler.

Okay.

I could do that.

Yeah.

They're super nice.

They're useful.

They're expensive.

It's got the branding on the side and tells everyone it's nice and fancy.

And it truly is.

And he doesn't have that, actually.

Okay.

Get him a Yeti cooler.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you.

Sure.

I am a wizard.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break.

And then when we're back, we're going to talk about the etiquette around returning bad gifts, strategies for regifting, plus ideas for older relatives and more listener questions.

Be right back.

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Your home is an active investment, not a passive one.

And with Rocket Mortgage, you can put your home equity to work right away.

When you unlock your home equity, you unlock new doors for your family.

Renovations, extensions, even buying your next property.

Get started today with smarter tools and guidance from real mortgage experts.

Find out how at rocketmortgage.com.

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Welcome back to the Wire Cutter Show.

This episode is all about gifting and finding gifts for those hard-to-please people in our lives.

Our guest today is one of our wirecutter gift writers, Samantha Shea.

Sam, before we jump back into listener questions, I have a few questions that are going to zoom out a little bit about the general rules of gifting.

And I want to see if you actually subscribe to these or not.

Okay.

Lightning round.

It's kind of a lightning round.

Yeah.

Definitely don't overthink it.

Just give me your first gut reaction.

Is cold hard cash the king of gifts?

For anyone under 20?

Yes.

Under 20?

Sorry.

You've aged out.

But like, will a one-year-old won't appreciate a box of money?

No, no, a one-year-old won't.

Well, for anyone

over

11 and under 20, if they're older than 20, you have to be really thrown down.

And then we're in a whole lot of minutes of a lot of money.

All right.

Next question.

When is it appropriate to re-gift?

Always.

Always.

What?

Yeah.

Okay.

I mean, you have to be careful.

Don't regift it in your circle.

You know, here.

Actually, take this back.

Yeah, no.

That's inappropriate.

But hey, reuse, recycle.

Like, it's better than something going to waste.

Yeah.

Okay.

I like that.

Okay.

Yay or nay on returning gifts that you hate.

Oh, I'm a yay on that.

Okay.

But I know there's an emotional component.

And if it pains you, like if you feel like it's an affront to the person who gave it to you, you know, you do you.

I'm not, I don't want anyone to feel terrible.

And I know some people really do, even if they don't like it or it doesn't fit.

They don't want to return it.

But generally, yes.

Are you pro including a gift receipt?

Yes.

Okay.

I don't want to give anyone anything they don't want or is useless to them.

So yeah, I'm pro gift receipt.

I want someone to return something if they don't like it.

Great.

All right.

So if someone gives you a gift, do you have to give them a gift in return?

No.

You don't.

I mean, sometimes you're caught by surprise and you can't and it's awkward.

I mean, this is.

Rosie loves to hear it.

She's cheering right now.

Rosie doesn't like to give gifts.

I don't like to give gifts if I don't want to give a gift.

Like the whole idea is thought.

And if I haven't prepared with, you know, love and thoughtfulness in my heart, then why am I getting you a gift?

So basically, I'm getting you.

I don't Christmas candles.

Well, I mean, happy holidays.

I mean, okay, that is the best of how we hope to operate.

But there's a lot of obligatory gift giving in our lives.

It just is, you know, so office parties, white elephant, that kind of thing, like you don't have to put your heart and soul into that.

But in terms of giving a gift because you've been given one, only if you know it's coming.

But we're sometimes we're blindsided by gifts.

And then you just be your most gracious self and thank the person.

That's really all you can do.

You can't like rummage around in your bag like, oh, here's the olive oil I always have on hand.

All right, Sam, we have another listener question.

Are you ready?

I am.

Hello, my name is Alex and I'm calling from San Diego, California.

And I myself am an impossible to shop for gift recipient.

As a professional in the environmental space, more is not necessarily better.

And then what I do want are usually things that are pretty big and significant that require a lot of personal research, like a new bicycle.

So not quite sure what can be done for me, but big sorry to all of my loved ones who try very hard and are met with me.

Okay, so I'm wondering if you have people in your life like this and what you recommend.

Yes, I do have people in my life like this.

I mean, this is a place where you steer away from stuff unless it's a consumable.

And

this is another great place for experiential gifts.

I have a really good childhood friend who's an organic farmer and

she saves her own seeds.

Like there's nothing I can get her that's organic farmy

because she knows so much more than I do.

But I can get her a book.

Like a book is never clutter.

Olive oil is never clutter.

This is also a really good place for digital gifts.

So masterclass is, you know, you can get them, buy them a class on something.

We have painting classes online.

You can buy them a subscription to like Libro FM, or if they're into audiobooks, you can buy them Met Opera subscriptions so they can watch opera on their television.

Or there's all sorts of cool streaming subscriptions like for, you know, British TV or for indie movies.

It's a good place to think about that, like something that is either entertaining or life-enhancing in some way.

You're learning something new, but isn't a thing thing.

I like that.

Yeah.

Let's play another listener question.

This one is from Alyssa, who's trying to find something thoughtful for her brother.

Hi, Wirecutter.

This is Alyssa from Minneapolis, and I need your help.

I cannot figure out what to buy my brother ever.

He's a computer programming nerd, but also snarky and sarcastic.

So he's not a total introvert.

He loves new tech, but he always can either build it or buy it himself.

He loves smart home tech, but he already has everything set up the way he likes it.

He also has a really fancy bidet in his bathroom.

He enjoys running, but he has all of the tools already to track his speed, distance, and heart rate.

He dresses very simply.

So a lot of black, no patterns, always buys the same pair of black sneakers because he likes them and he knows what he likes.

He lives in a studio condo.

So he's very simple, does not have room for a bunch of stuff.

He loves to grill and drink beer.

I was very proud of myself.

I bought him a cooler one year, and it was a good cooler, and that was a good one.

But I just don't know what to buy him.

he's not a materialistic person and i also want it to be

meaningful in the sense that it's well thought out for what he likes to do and what's important to him thank you i really hope you can help me i love your show it's awesome i've really enjoyed listening to it and have told a lot of people about it so Thanks so much.

First of all, thanks, Alyssa.

Yeah.

Thanks for the love, Alyssa.

Thank you.

So sweet.

And now that we know Alyssa's brother doesn't need a bidet, which that narrows it down.

No, I've got you, Alyssa.

I do.

So I would think again about upgrades of the stuff that you know he likes.

Does he listen to anything while he runs?

You could get him an audiobook subscription.

If he does, he probably already has the earbuds or headphones that he likes.

So you want to stay away from the techie stuff, but you can think about...

offering him more stuff to listen to, for example.

Okay, so he likes to grill.

We have what I think is very funny and very hilarious, which is a personalized steak brand for grilling in our personalized gifts.

It's like, it's an actual, it's like forged in Texas by the people who make brands for cattle, but it's mini, so you can stamp your burgers.

It's funny and it's, it's a good quality thing.

And, you know, it's, I know it's kind of a novelty and I know he doesn't want a lot of stuff, but this is something that would like hang with the grill tools that he's already has and is using.

Or like for beer, we have this great growler.

I don't know if he goes to like a brew pub and buys beer, but if he is that kind of beer drinker, this insulated growler that we have, Wirecutter is recommended for a really long time because it's super tough.

You could take it camping and drop it down a path and it would be fine.

You know, we also have home brewing kits.

It could verge on the chore gift, but if you know it's something that he's interested in, that could be a great gift for a beer lover.

I also am getting this vibe from the description of your brother that he might like a happy-tuned print, which is like a caricature of him or him and a pet or whatever, done in his favorite adult cartoon.

So, like, Bob's Burgers are done in the style of Simpsons.

I don't know.

Just the nerdy tech person, it's somehow, but that's really popular gift.

Okay, so this is a question that we got from Kuwadi in Chapel Hill asking specifically about finding gifts for their elderly relatives.

Dear wirecutter, my gift-giving challenge is buying gifts for elderly relatives.

These are people that I don't know very well, and I see them only once a year.

These people have houses full of stuff.

The last thing that I want to do is to add to the clutter.

I have tried to find things that they can use or consume.

However, with food items, many of them have dietary restrictions.

I am running out of ideas.

Please suggest some good alternatives.

Thank you.

Wow.

Okay, Congratulations.

You have the hardest gift giving.

It can't exist, can't be consuming.

Right.

There's a lot of barriers here.

I, okay.

Don't take this the wrong way, but why are you getting these people gifts is one of the, is my first question.

This, to me, if she sees them once a year, she doesn't know them very well.

To me, this is not, this is somebody you.

Maybe you bring them flowers

and a really nice card.

But if gift giving is a tradition and you have to give them a gift, the first thing that comes to mind for me is we recommend these live citrus trees from a company called Fast Growing Trees.

Super popular because you can grow lemons or limes or more exotic citrus fruits inside.

And it's a beautiful gift and

the person might love it and keep it alive and they might not and it's not really your problem.

But they're not not difficult to keep alive.

I think fresh cut flowers or a potted plant, maybe they're not huge plant enthusiasts, but it's not, it's not insulting.

It doesn't really meet the definition of clutter.

And it's more of a gesture than a gift, which is what I think this situation calls for.

Okay, Sam.

So before we wrap, we usually ask our guests one final question.

What's the last thing you bought that you really loved?

I bought myself a pair of gorgeous chunky loafers in Milan.

And I'm in love with them.

Loafers are shoes, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm like, this is me so uncultured.

What are they made out of?

Leather with like a chunky loafers are a classic slip-on shoe, like a penny loafer.

Okay, okay, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nice.

Nice.

So that's the last thing I bought for myself that I loved.

I love that.

Sam, thanks for joining us.

Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

It's fun.

Super fun.

All right.

That's it for us this week.

And hey, if you aren't following the show already, please do.

We would love it.

Wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, we are on YouTube.

And that way you'll never miss an episode.

If you want to find out more about Wirecutter's coverage, or if you want to check out the products Sam recommended today, go to nytimes.com/slash wirecutter or find a link in the show notes.

And here's what's coming up next week on the wire cutter show.

They light an identical fire in each room and after four minutes the house with natural furnishings I mean it's it's a fire for sure but it's something that's still kind of manageable and the other room with modern sort of synthetic is just completely engulfed in flames.

The wire cutter show is executive produced by me, Rosie Guerin, and produced by Abigail Keel.

Editing by Abigail Keel.

Engineering support from Maddie Mazziello and Nick Pittman.

Today's episode was mixed by Catherine Anderson.

Original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Alicia BaeTube, and Diane Wong.

Wire Cutter's deputy publisher and interim general manager is Cliff Levy.

Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's Editor-in-Chief.

I'm Kyra Blackwell.

I'm Christine Sear-Clissette.

And I'm Rosie Guerin.

Thank you for listening.

In the show notes,

sinks, sinks,

thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

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