Justice | Chapter 10

Speaker 1 Hi, I'm Kylie Lowe, host of Dark Down East, a true crime podcast unlike any other. Why? Because every case I cover comes from the heart of my home, New England.

Speaker 1 From the rocky main coast to the historic streets of Boston to the quiet corners of Vermont and beyond, I investigate stories filled with untold twists, enduring questions, and voices that deserve to be heard.

Speaker 1 So if you're ready to explore the darker side of New England, join me every week for Dark Down East. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 2 Judge Kubota's decision to have Hawaii PD release the information they have about Albert Laurel Jr. is a polarizing one.
This is great news for the Hawaii Innocence Project and for Ian and Sean.

Speaker 2 Hawaii PD, however, aren't exactly thrilled that Judge Kubota has made this decision.

Speaker 2 They want to take this issue all the way up to Hawaii's Supreme Court with the goal of blocking the judge from sharing anything about their investigation into the murder of Dana Ireland.

Speaker 2 According to an article reported by Lynn Kawano for Hawaii News Now, The reason that the prosecutor's office is requesting this information remain private is because, quote, any premature disclosure of these records would absolutely jeopardize and or completely upend this investigation.

Speaker 2 They say that they aren't necessarily against the Hawaii Innocence Project having the information, but they want to make it so they aren't able to share any of the information publicly, which is why they're appealing to the Hawaii Supreme Court.

Speaker 2 Because not only does Judge Kubota decide that Hawaii PD needs to turn over the evidence, but he also doesn't believe the Hawaii Innocence Project needs to keep whatever information they get private.

Speaker 2 The public deserves the visibility.

Speaker 2 During his hearing, Judge Kubota questioned Elizabeth Britt Bailey, who is the Deputy Corporation Counsel of Hawaii County, wanting to better understand exactly what is going on behind the scenes with the Hawaii PD.

Speaker 2 What is their goal? Albert Laurel Jr. is dead.
What possible ongoing investigation is there?

Speaker 2 It seems like Hawaii County's goal is to delay Ian and Sean's civil case, which would finally accomplish what they have now spent years trying to prove: factual innocence.

Speaker 2 And with that, they would receive compensation from the state that they rightfully deserve.

Speaker 2 Judge Kubota says during the hearing, quote, These guys were convicted 23 years ago, and they're seeking a determination of actual innocence.

Speaker 2 And in my view, justice delayed at your behest is is justice denied.

Speaker 2 I'm Amanda Knox, and this is 3.

Speaker 2 Chapter 10 Justice

Speaker 2 When Shannon Kagawa stands in front of the Hawaii Supreme Court, she makes it clear that Ian and Sean Schweitzer are still considered suspects.

Speaker 2 While she believes the new DNA evidence is enough to justify overturning Ian and Sean's convictions, it doesn't necessarily mean they are innocent for all the reasons she has stated previously.

Speaker 2 And this is terrifying for Ian and Sean because even though their convictions have been overturned, until they are proven factually innocent, at any time, they can be charged again.

Speaker 2 The prosecution claims that is not part of their current game plan, but they haven't exactly earned a reputation for forthrightness and honesty here.

Speaker 2 And during this hearing with the Hawaii Supreme Court, the higher judges are a little skeptical.

Speaker 5 A murder has no statute of limitations. Are the Shweiches going to be suspects, you know, for the next 30 years?

Speaker 8 I definitely hope not, but I think we do have to allow the police department the opportunity to do an investigation.

Speaker 5 I don't think anyone's saying that the police department shouldn't do the investigation.

Speaker 5 You know, I'd be the first to admit that we want a thorough and complete investigation, but the question is: what is being investigated at this point? We're 30-plus years out.

Speaker 5 And I think they serve 25 years of their life, prime of their life, been taken from them.

Speaker 9 And here we are.

Speaker 2 At the end of the day, the Hawaii Innocence Project is committed to one thing here, proving once and for all, beyond a reasonable doubt, that their clients Ian and Sean Schweitzer are innocent and that they are compensated accordingly.

Speaker 2 As for the Hawaii Police Department, well, in our conversation with Chief Moskowitz, He says the one thing they're committed to is justice, of course.

Speaker 2 And any argument that there is some witch hunt and cover-up happening is absolutely, categorically false.

Speaker 10 One of the most preposterous things that I've heard in my entire life, that the allegation that we wanted Laurel to kill himself in order to perpetuate this mistake that the Schweitzers and Pauline acted alone.

Speaker 10 That is perhaps one of the most appalling things I've ever heard. That is one of the most baseless allegations.
And it's really, I hate to use words like this because people,

Speaker 10 it's scurrilous, right? It really is.

Speaker 10 It's abjectly false, it's without evidence, and it's basically just inflammatory to attempt to prove a point that is not true.

Speaker 2 Now, I want to clarify that it does make sense for law enforcement to keep the details of an ongoing investigation private when there is the possibility that disclosing that information could either spook a suspect into fleeing or hamper their ability to gather further evidence or create a media spectacle that could impact a jury pool.

Speaker 2 But Albert Laurel Jr. is now dead, despite every effort the Hawaii PD says they took to prevent that outcome.
He can't flee the country or hide underground to avoid an arrest or conviction.

Speaker 2 So, what exactly are they investigating?

Speaker 2 And if they can't provide a convincing answer to that question, it's hard not to wonder if they're just throwing out that line, ongoing investigation, to avoid sharing information that may simply make them look bad.

Speaker 2 For Ian and Sean and their family, it's hard not to become a bit jaded. The same thing happened with my family.
Can you blame them?

Speaker 2 After the police abused me, they witnessed the prosecution present baseless theories, trout out incentivized informants and junk science. All while the sole and actual killer was already in custody.

Speaker 2 And while the incompetence of law enforcement can make you frustrated at the system, the signs of corruption and misconduct make you scream in your head.

Speaker 2 My own prosecutor was actually on trial for abuse of office in a separate case while he was prosecuting me.

Speaker 2 And it later emerged that the real killer had been mysteriously released from police custody just five days before he murdered my roommate, leading many to speculate that he was actually a criminal informant.

Speaker 2 As crazy as that all sounds, it's unfortunately not rare, as Ian and Sean and Sean's wife Treaty can tell you.

Speaker 12 The

Speaker 12 intentional with the Volkswagen, the malicious, like so dirty,

Speaker 12 like they knew it wasn't the car, the detectives. They knew it, like based on the length, width, tire tread of the vehicle.

Speaker 12 But they were willing to go along with Charlene Iboshi and Lincoln Ashida's fake big lie story to get John Lunz off the deal the immunity I don't know why why it was so important to give this guy immunity you know I mean instead of just not coming after us after the DNA didn't match and go find whose DNA it is before you come after anybody you know

Speaker 13 The justice system, besides ruining our, you know, our name, they didn't do any justice for Dana like the cops failed her detectives failed her ambulance failed her the freaking prosecution failed her like where like nothing you know nothing for like try to figure out who did this to her they had no concern all of their concern was just putting somebody away before the statutes of limitation that's it That's all they cared about.

Speaker 13 They didn't care about finding the true guy and he's probably still in her community. The justice system just was like, they just failed at their job.

Speaker 13 The cops didn't do their job well because they didn't do the good detective work. So they failed her even getting a good case.
So they have to make up a case.

Speaker 13 And then the prosecution and whatever, they failed because they knew what they were looking at. They did a messy job.

Speaker 13 She didn't take care of all, you know, what they needed to find the person legitimately.

Speaker 6 And there were other leads.

Speaker 12 There had many other leads.

Speaker 6 There were other leads that they did not follow at the time.

Speaker 12 They did not follow.

Speaker 2 During our team's last trip to Hawaii, Ian and Sean welcome us back to their home in Volcano a few days after the hearing.

Speaker 2 Sean's wife Treaty greets us with a warm smile, grandkids running between rooms.

Speaker 2 The day feels different.

Speaker 2 The delays and the lack of resounding good news that will put this all to bed finally has taken their toll on the brothers. Their mood is more somber than usual.

Speaker 2 Sean, normally the more reserved of the two brothers, is worried about finances.

Speaker 2 He carries a heavy burden, supporting his growing family, including newer grandkids, and he must balance these constant court appearances with the need to have take-home money each week.

Speaker 2 Ian is still steadfast. He's ready to fight.
But he can't go back to work. He's not ready for that.
He was a nurse on the islands before all this happened, with dreams of early retirement.

Speaker 2 He's worked since he was a little boy, always hustling.

Speaker 2 But today is about trying to get back to normal. Each new day is a blessing to Ian, a new chance at life.

Speaker 2 Ian often recalls what Judge Peter Kubota shared with him that day, that he has more of his life to live. Ian must decide if he will live with bitterness or with hope.

Speaker 2 I think about that too whenever I'm looking into a wrongful conviction case. Hope is complicated.
It can be a source of suffering, the thing that prevents you from accepting your reality as it is.

Speaker 2 But it can also sustain you through the darkness.

Speaker 2 And it's not just the personal hope of finding peace or growing through your trauma, but hope for the truth to finally come out, for justice to be served, and truth and justice there for everyone.

Speaker 2 Not just the Schweitzer family. Dana Ireland's family deserves the truth.
So does the Pauline family. So does the whole Big Island community.

Speaker 2 Justice also means that those who've caused harm or delayed the truth from coming out should be held accountable, especially when they've been empowered to protect and serve the community.

Speaker 2 And that's something that even the Hawaii Supreme Court recognizes when they come back with their decision in October 2024.

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Speaker 2 When the Supreme Court delivers their decision, they acknowledge, quote, significant procedural missteps, end quote.

Speaker 2 But in the same breath, they also share that the Hawaii Police Department does not need to release the records regarding Albert Laurel Jr.

Speaker 2 to the Hawaii Innocence Project, which can sound a little like a loss here.

Speaker 2 But thankfully, it's actually not.

Speaker 2 The High Court says that Ian and Sean no longer need to prove actual innocence in order to move forward with their compensation claims.

Speaker 2 They rule that a change needs to be made regarding the Schweitzer's petition. Their petition needs to be changed to a civil lawsuit, and the Hawaii Supreme Court will handle the proceedings.

Speaker 17 A little disappointed as to the fact that we can't get the evidence we believe we're entitled to. However, you know, I found the decision to be quite helpful to us.

Speaker 18 They're telling not just the Swissists, but everybody else henceforth, if you come out of prison and the judges overturned your conviction, you can demonstrate actual innocence.

Speaker 18 Here's the process you follow.

Speaker 18 And so they really did clarify for all of us in this state: how do you go about getting compensated for serving time in prison when you're actually innocent.

Speaker 2 As of the time of this hearing, police say they are waiting for the results of Albert Laurel Jr.'s autopsy and are still in the process of trying to interview his loved ones, including his wife, who they say hasn't spoken to them yet, almost four months after his death.

Speaker 2 And as of today,

Speaker 2 this is where things sit, with the Hawaii Innocence Project in the midst of filing their civil lawsuit against Hawaii County.

Speaker 2 This series has been about a lot of things.

Speaker 2 Justice for Dana Ireland and her family. Justice for Sean and Ian Schweitzer and their family.
And as complicated as it may be, justice for Frank Pauline and his family.

Speaker 2 Whatever you may think about Frank, it became a lot harder to carry around the name Pauline in Hawaii after Ian, Sean, and Frank were wrongly convicted for the murder of Dana Ireland.

Speaker 2 And that's not just due to Frank's lies, but to the incompetence and perhaps willful blindness of law enforcement. Here's his attorney, Miles Breiner.

Speaker 11 The fact that Frank implicated the Schweitzers and still was convicted,

Speaker 11 he's still a victim of this whole process. The fact that he did these things and implicated the Schweitzers, I suspect, you know,

Speaker 11 when you're under investigation as a possible rapist and murderer,

Speaker 11 you say a lot of things. And people make promises or imply that if you help them, they'll help you and so forth.
I have no doubt that Frank was trying to play all the angles possible.

Speaker 11 The sons have paid the price for the father's sins.

Speaker 11 You know, what was his sin? His sin was that he was a liar. Okay, does that mean that

Speaker 11 he deserved to be murdered in prison? He deserved to be incarcerated for a crime he didn't commit?

Speaker 11 It's terrible for the Ireland family and for the whole community. And I'm thinking about my clients, the surviving sons of Frank Pauline.

Speaker 11 Frank, for all intents and purposes, was murdered in New Mexico out in the wreckyard because of this case. That's what our belief is.

Speaker 11 I'm not going to go into the details of it, but our belief is that there was information that was disclosed, it became public knowledge, it shouldn't have been, and there was a possibility that Frank was going to get released.

Speaker 11 And what happens very often in the prison system when someone's a lifer or has a long sentence and

Speaker 11 they're about to be released, say by the sudden discovery of exculpatory evidence, there's retaliation by other inmates.

Speaker 2 The question that rings throughout every case where there is a potential wrongful conviction at the center of it is how can something like this happen?

Speaker 2 How can authorities get it so wrong?

Speaker 2 In Ian and Sean's case, there was fortunately DNA. But in many cases, there isn't.

Speaker 2 I know innocent people who are still rotting away in prison because there's no DNA to prove their innocence, and their convictions rest on something like a false confession.

Speaker 2 I truly believe that most wrongful convictions occur because police and prosecutors are human. They are subject to the same cognitive biases that afflict us all.

Speaker 2 They fall into the trap of confirmation bias, seeking out evidence that confirms their hunch and ignoring evidence that doesn't. They get tunnel vision.

Speaker 2 They fool themselves into thinking they're delivering justice when they're creating yet more injustice.

Speaker 2 Even when police and prosecutors commit willful misconduct, which is far too common, withholding exculpatory evidence, contaminating witness testimony, even planting evidence.

Speaker 2 I don't imagine they are cackling like cartoon villains.

Speaker 2 Rather, I believe they commit these acts of misconduct because they've convinced themselves that they've got the right suspect and they just need to put them away, even if that means breaking a few rules.

Speaker 2 But those rules are there for a reason, because when they are broken, the chances of a wrongful conviction go up immensely, and the costs are widespread and devastating.

Speaker 2 It's not up to me or any of our team here to determine how these three families have suffered and how that injustice should be rectified.

Speaker 2 You have Ken Lawson and the Hawaii Innocence Project Legal Avengers committed to that. Our job here as storytellers and advocates is to make noise.

Speaker 2 Educate, raise awareness, and give back. None of us should walk away from this series the same way we walked in.

Speaker 2 While you've got your earbuds in, while you fold laundry or cook dinner or drive to work as this podcast plays, know that there are tens of thousands of innocent people, perhaps more than 100,000, trapped in prison, wishing they had the opportunity to perform those daily chores.

Speaker 2 to work for an annoying boss, or to see that ex-lover at a party across the room. That's what I found myself missing most in prison.

Speaker 2 The birthdays, the adventures, the joy of family time during the holidays. I missed those too, obviously.

Speaker 2 But the longer I was inside, the more it was the daily stuff of a regular life, those unremarkable and even awkward moments that I began to yearn for.

Speaker 2 And it's not just those innocents locked inside, but their families on the outside whose lives get consumed fighting to save them.

Speaker 2 As you've seen throughout the last 10 chapters, Dana Ireland's death impacted so many people.

Speaker 2 Dana's parents, Louise and John, spent the last years of their lives with the pain of the death of their daughter.

Speaker 21 Hopefully we're, you know, this will be solved someday.

Speaker 21 If it's not, it's going to happen again.

Speaker 21 These things aren't just

Speaker 21 an isolated incident.

Speaker 22 And they took everything.

Speaker 22 It's nothing going away. Never.
I mean,

Speaker 22 you've got it for the rest of your life.

Speaker 22 I mean,

Speaker 22 everything.

Speaker 2 And her sister, Sandy.

Speaker 23 The community, there are some bad people here, but there's a lot of good people. And they've showed a lot of aloha to my family.
And

Speaker 23 we really, it helped us get through this, all the really good people and the good aloha we experienced from everybody here.

Speaker 2 And three men.

Speaker 2 There's Frank Pauline Jr.

Speaker 2 and his family, who is still trying to pick up the pieces, like his aunt, Lori.

Speaker 9 I always said, I pray real hard. I say, God, you ain't blind, ain't deaf, and dumb.
I pray to God, I'm still alive to see your boys, all these boys, their names all clear because they're all innocent.

Speaker 9 Innocent lives taken. For what?

Speaker 9 The system here really screwed up. Until today, we still have police force are corrupt.
We still do.

Speaker 9 Innocent lives were taken.

Speaker 9 They cannot replace the lives that they've taken, the livelihoods from these boys and their families. They cannot replace that.
It's taken away from them.

Speaker 2 And his sons.

Speaker 11 Well, we're still proceeding. We have a hearing

Speaker 11 on our portion of the case coming up, and we're going to dovetail whatever has been filed by the Schweitzer brothers. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel.
Judge Kubota is facing a problem.

Speaker 11 There has to be some type of acknowledgement to all the parties that a mistake was made of tragic proportions, almost Shakespearean or Greek tragedy of sorts.

Speaker 11 And as you said, money is one thing, but everyone wants the exoneration. And from the perspective of the surviving sons of Frank Pauline, their lives were destroyed.

Speaker 11 Both of them have been having great difficulty. They had to leave their own island and live elsewhere because they were being attacked, you know, in school and throughout the community.

Speaker 11 And the difficulty is they grew up, you know, the belief their father had participated in one of the most horrendous murders possible. And it turns out

Speaker 11 Frank wasn't guilty. Now, I know there's all types of problems with Frank.
I represented him many years ago. And Frank

Speaker 11 was an habitual liar. That's the reality of it.

Speaker 11 Why he made up these comments, why he implicated the Schweitzers, I'll never know.

Speaker 11 It's frankly outrageous and incomprehensible that he did it, but that was Frank.

Speaker 2 Then you have Sean Schweitzer.

Speaker 24 You don't really believe it's going to happen because it's like so

Speaker 24 fucking ridiculous that it, you know it's it's that's how i felt i felt it was ridiculous i i didn't feel good about it for a long time i can tell you that i mean you know from what 94 to

Speaker 19 probably up until like

Speaker 24 last year yeah

Speaker 24 took me a long time to not be an angry person

Speaker 24 being angry and trying to control yourself is uh

Speaker 24 hard Especially in kids, I mean, people mess with your kids and, you know, do stupid shit.

Speaker 24 Or they wave at you

Speaker 24 like they're your friend. You know what I mean?

Speaker 12 What the fuck you?

Speaker 19 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And finally, there's Albert Ian Schweitzer.

Speaker 12 I think what they charged me with is what they did to me.

Speaker 12 You know,

Speaker 12 what they made me out to be, a monster. All that newspaper articles.
That's the conviction right there. Run that for about eight years.

Speaker 12 You know, seven years.

Speaker 12 Because I messed up. You know, I got to talk to a therapist next week.
You know, and I don't care who you are.

Speaker 12 You do 20 plus years.

Speaker 12 You're not maybe as best off as I am.

Speaker 12 Oh, they know.

Speaker 12 They know. I mean, they can't be that dumb.
You know,

Speaker 12 they can't be that dumb.

Speaker 12 This was just... 100% malicious, intentional.

Speaker 12 Intentional.

Speaker 12 They intentionally made sure I ended up with the worst attorney in the state of Hawaii.

Speaker 2 Ian's village has rallied around him for the last 30 years.

Speaker 12 But you know what the county of Hawaii did to my parents and

Speaker 12 parents' perspective? You know, it fucking killed them. Mentally, physically.

Speaker 12 financially, emotionally,

Speaker 12 and then just times it by 100.

Speaker 12 You know, he just drained them.

Speaker 13 Sony only started like even looking at life in a different way because knowing his brother's in prison, he just didn't want to move forward or do anything different or whatever because all he can think about is brought us sitting in a cell.

Speaker 13 So it kind of stopped him a lot from just doing anything. He just go work, come on, go work, come home.
That's all he did.

Speaker 13 He never like tried to reach out, you know, do something that he loves, passionate, anything that made him happy, he wouldn't do because he knew his brother was sitting in a cell.

Speaker 13 But now we have him with us every day and stuff. I can just see him just, you know, just releasing and being okay with life.
He can't be happy now because his brother is not in a cell, you know.

Speaker 2 But by the end of this series, there came a fourth family that at this stage may be a little harder to empathize with. And that's Albert Laurel Jr.'s family.

Speaker 2 His wife and kids and family members, perhaps they had no clue that their their husband, their dad, their uncle or cousin or son was responsible for something so unimaginable.

Speaker 2 And what must it be like to grapple with that revelation now?

Speaker 2 Or, equally as terrifying, perhaps some of them knew or suspected.

Speaker 2 We may never know or fully understand until they decide, if they decide, to speak for themselves.

Speaker 2 Regardless, Albert Laurel Jr.'s crime will have an effect on them, and they will bear his infamy in part simply by sharing his name. I know my family did.

Speaker 2 But we should also be mindful of the presumption of innocence, that there are many legitimate reasons they may not want to talk.

Speaker 2 And even Albert Laurel Jr., if he were alive today, would deserve to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Speaker 2 Though it still remains troubling that the Hawaii PD has taken such pains to grant that presumption of innocence for him, even in his death, when they were so cavalier about going after Ian and Sean with nothing but a wild tale from an unreliable narrator.

Speaker 2 Steve Kramer and Steve Bush agree.

Speaker 25 I don't know any detective, homicide detectives that we've worked with that thought that was a good idea. In fact, everybody thinks it's a bonehead idea.

Speaker 25 I don't know why, like I said, I cannot cannot think, and I'd like that answer, like what was the investigative reason for taking his DNA again, and then certainly letting him go.

Speaker 25 So if you're asking me, is there any question or is there any rub about there being probable causes that he murdered her? I think that's ludicrous. And I can tell you.

Speaker 25 As you can imagine, Steve and I have a lot of law enforcement friends, both in the FBI and many, many agencies across the country.

Speaker 25 And I've been inundated with my friends, prosecutors, investigators, going, what the hell happened in Hawaii? And they're like, what was going on with the police there?

Speaker 25 That saying that there's no probable cause. And all I can say is like, didn't have control of it.

Speaker 25 And I can tell you that that is not the way the FBI, the FBI would never go out and take overt DNA from an individual after they've already confirmed him through surreptitious DNA.

Speaker 25 That's the probable cause. Like every warrant we've done, including federal warrants that Steve and I have worked on in federal court, same thing.

Speaker 21 Like,

Speaker 25 Serf just as DNA is all you need. So

Speaker 25 I think this case was a tragedy from December 24th, 1991 through July 19th, 2024.

Speaker 2 We came into this case asking ourselves, who killed Dana Ireland?

Speaker 2 Because from everything we've seen and studied and analyzed, we can say without a shadow of a doubt that there's no reliable evidence tying Frank Pauline Jr., Sean Schweitzer, and Albert Ian Schweitzer to the crime.

Speaker 2 And we now have very solid evidence implicating a man who just took his own life when he learned he was a suspect.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 what happens next?

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Speaker 20 two Two things.

Speaker 20 One, that you'll probably still see a civil rights action for violation of civil rights by the brothers against the defendants, the Hilo Police Department, and possibly the prosecutors that were involved back then.

Speaker 20 Secondly, you'll see us demand that the Justice Department investigate the circumstances surrounding the death of Albert Laurel.

Speaker 20 I mean, my understanding, I don't know how much the chief told you about that, my understanding is that the beat officers came there Tuesday in response to to his suicide. His wife was there and

Speaker 20 indicated that she was worried about him ever since he had the encounter with the police on Friday and that she had intentionally taken off work because she was worried something might happen to him, you know, or he may do something.

Speaker 19 And she

Speaker 20 could no longer take off work days. So when Tuesday came, he assured her he would be okay.

Speaker 20 And she left and then he killed himself. Now,

Speaker 20 I hate to sound like a conspirator, right? But I mean, you know, if there's surveillance in his house and they see her leave, I want to know how he died.

Speaker 20 I'm saying, why would you go to this extent to cover all this stuff up?

Speaker 19 Who are you protecting?

Speaker 12 And why?

Speaker 12 Why?

Speaker 19 I mean, why would you not use the best practices when everybody and their mama's telling you to use them?

Speaker 12 Why would you let him go?

Speaker 11 I like to see accountability with the police department, the prosecutor's office. They need to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate from the U.S.

Speaker 11 Attorney's Office or from DOJ to find out what happened. I mean, they're so hot to try to go out and

Speaker 11 appoint special prosecutors, at least as far as the city and county of Honolulu.

Speaker 11 I think it's time that the Big Island Police and the prosecutor's office be subject to a full-blown investigation on how they handled this.

Speaker 24 We embrace the DNA, Leaky and Cheetah. We embrace the DNA.
We use it, but it doesn't mean that they're not guilty.

Speaker 24 That's exactly what he said.

Speaker 12 He's a criminal.

Speaker 6 He should go back on the prosecuting team and bring it out.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I dare him. You're with my team now.

Speaker 22 Like, I dare him.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 24 Like, we got more evidence.

Speaker 12 I loved him.

Speaker 19 I love him. We got some good lawyers.

Speaker 24 I like to see him stuttering in front of that judge trying to figure out how you're going to put this together now. There's no way he would

Speaker 19 did what he did to us now. There's no way.

Speaker 19 happening.

Speaker 26 I think people need to know

Speaker 12 how

Speaker 26 difficult this system is to undo. You know, we talk about the nine months that we've waited between Ian and Sean.
It's the same evidence. It's the same people.
It's the same testimony.

Speaker 26 Nothing has changed, but it's taken this long. You know, I look at Sean's children and I think how hard it must have been for them.
And they're great kids.

Speaker 26 And that's credit to everybody else in the family. And that's credit to Sean being here.
Even Ian's kid, you know,

Speaker 12 it's a great kid.

Speaker 26 And he grew up with this over his head. He grew up with kids making fun of them, you know.
All these children grew up with their parents. It's not a well-known name.

Speaker 26 Schweitzer is not a popular name in the islands, but it is a well-known name in this island because of what happened. So to undo the damage that was done, it's kind of too late.

Speaker 26 But we can try and make it right later, right? And we don't want to ever see the wrong person be convicted of a crime.

Speaker 26 You said 100 guilty men free, but do you want to put that one innocent one in prison for life, which is what Ian could have been?

Speaker 26 It's just, it's a very sad case. There's just no winners here.
There's no winners.

Speaker 26 While it's celebratory for the Schweitzers, I'm so happy for them to have to wait all this time and to finally get this day to see Mama Schweitzer, who's undergoing chemotherapy, to see that her boys are finally both home for Christmas and free and clear of these criminal charges.

Speaker 26 This is going to be the best Christmas for them. But she has now breast cancer.
She's fighting that and she's going through a lot. And so it's hard.
It's, you know, you can't get that time back.

Speaker 26 But also for Dana Island's family, for her sister, it's heartbreaking.

Speaker 2 No one forced the police or prosecutors to take on those roles.

Speaker 2 But when they did, they became responsible for protecting their community, for acting ethically, for delivering justice and not impeding it, for serving the truth. Those are heavy responsibilities.

Speaker 2 People's lives are at stake, and we should rightly honor the people who uphold them with integrity. But with big responsibility comes big accountability.

Speaker 2 And when our public servants fail us all, as they failed the Ireland family, the Paulines, and the Schweitzers.

Speaker 2 Something needs to be done to balance the scales.

Speaker 2 Until that day, Sean and Ian are taking each day as it comes, not exactly sure what's next.

Speaker 12 I don't even know. You know, it's like, you know,

Speaker 12 they definitely need to pass.

Speaker 12 Well, I've only been out for five months. So I think we're right on track.
I think you guys being here right now at this moment, I think the timing is perfect.

Speaker 12 You know, and just, you know, keep this story alive for us.

Speaker 24 Yeah.

Speaker 2 One of the things I really hope to convey to you in this series is that the story never ends at what I call the hamburger moment.

Speaker 2 They finally test the DNA, they find the real killer, the innocent man walks out of prison and takes his first bite of a burger. Then, curtains.

Speaker 2 That's how the local news so often plays it, as if the struggle for justice is finally over.

Speaker 2 But actual wrongful convictions are messy, both procedurally and psychology. Too often, prosecutors are an obstacle not just to release, but to declarations of factual innocence and compensation.

Speaker 2 And even if those things happen, Having your reputation smeared as a monstrous killer can never be totally undone. I'm living with these consequences today.

Speaker 2 By the time you hear this podcast, my own legal nightmare will hopefully finally be over after 18 years of trials. Yes, the trials have not stopped.
It's more complicated than you know.

Speaker 2 But even if I'm finally, fully vindicated, I'm unlikely to ever see compensation for my wrongful imprisonment. and the stigma of accusation hangs over me.

Speaker 2 Whether the Italian justice system considers me a criminal or a victim, I know there are millions of people out there who will never be convinced of my innocence.

Speaker 2 If you're curious how I continue to process all that, you can follow my podcast Labyrinths, check out my new book Free, which comes out on March 25th, and find me at amandanox.com.

Speaker 2 All of that is linked in the show notes.

Speaker 2 For Ian and Sean, the same stigma remains as their legal battle battle for compensation continues. And it's so much harder to rebuild your life when over two decades were stolen from you.

Speaker 2 So I urge you to support Ian. He and his family have set up a GoFundMe that we're going to link to in the show notes for anyone who is interested in donating.

Speaker 2 Additionally, You can support the incredible work the Hawaii Innocence Project does each day, which aside from working on Ian and Sean's case, has exonerated four other innocent people and has many more active cases.

Speaker 2 This work is expensive. For an average client, access to police reports and court records can cost upwards of $1,200.

Speaker 2 Visiting their clients in Arizona, where most are incarcerated, costs over $1,000 in travel expenses.

Speaker 2 Expert consulting often runs around $2,400 per expert per evidentiary hearing, and that testimony is crucial to debunk things like tire treadmarks, bite marks, and other junk science.

Speaker 2 DNA testing is more expensive still, costing upwards of $2,500 per item to be tested in a lab. And it's not uncommon for there to be dozens of items worth testing.

Speaker 2 And that's not to mention any of the time for the attorneys working tirelessly on these cases. And it often takes years and years to overturn a wrongful conviction while the costs keep piling up.

Speaker 2 You can visit www.hawaiinnocenceproject.org and click the donate button to support them, their work, and their clients.

Speaker 2 And lastly, if you have any information about the abduction and murder of Dana Ireland, we encourage you to contact the Hawaii Innocence Project at contacthip at

Speaker 2 Project.org.

Speaker 2 You can also contact Crime Stoppers at 808-961-8300

Speaker 2 and the Hawaii Police Department at 808-961-2380 or visit their website hawaiipolice.gov to submit a tip.

Speaker 2 So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

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