Edward Said and the Question of Palestine

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Speaker 2 Imagine it's the year 1982. You've just turned on the TV, you're flipping through channels, and then this generic Arabian melody catches your ear.

Speaker 2 So you linger.

Speaker 2 A grainy black and white video shows a man flying across the screen on a floating carpet.

Speaker 2 Suddenly, it cuts to a belly dancer bedazzled in red and yellow sequins, spinning around as a sheer orange scarf envelops her. Cut again.

Speaker 2 A forlorn face hunched over in a dark black shroud, only one eye peering out. Cut.
A man in a white turban with furrowed brows stares intensely, angrily, back at you.

Speaker 2 And then, as this visual collage continues, you hear a voice.

Speaker 3 The Orient.

Speaker 4 The mysterious East.

Speaker 6 A place of fantasy, imagination, desire.

Speaker 2 The voice belongs to a man named Edward Said, and he's narrating this documentary on PBS called The Shadow of the West.

Speaker 2 Said was himself from the so-called Orient, the Middle East.

Speaker 5 I was born in Jerusalem when it was part of a country called Palestine. By 1948, when Palestine became Israel, all my family had left.
My birthplace is now inaccessible to me.

Speaker 5 For many hundreds of thousands of my fellow Palestinians, their native towns, villages, farms are inaccessible to them.

Speaker 2 For a lot of people tuning in, This might have been the first time they're hearing someone called a Palestinian talk about a place called Palestine in English on their TV.

Speaker 2 It wasn't a common thing to see in the 80s, and Edward Said might not have been what they expected.

Speaker 9 He had like a pocket watch that he would use to check the time, wrote with a fountain pen, very well dressed.

Speaker 2 Think tweed jacket, no turban or keffiyah in sight.

Speaker 9 He exuded a kind of old European charm.

Speaker 2 He had two pianos and loved playing from the time he was a kid. Classical music was the soundtrack of his life.
Beethoven, Mozart, Bach.

Speaker 11 Music has curative powers. You're taken outside of yourself.
I mean, there's a state of almost ecstasy.

Speaker 2 And it was this person who, in the second half of the 20th century, took it on as his mission to explain Palestine to the West.

Speaker 2 For nearly 30 years, you could find him narrating documentaries on TV, lecturing on college campuses, writing for the New York Times, engaging politicians.

Speaker 12 And in the U.S., he became the most distinguished and certainly the best known representative of the Palestine struggle for national independence, for liberation.

Speaker 2 Today,

Speaker 13 I would encourage the other side to not so lightly throw around the idea of innocent Palestinian civilians.

Speaker 2 The conversation around Palestinians remains fraught.

Speaker 13 I don't think we would so lightly throw around the term innocent Nazi civilians.

Speaker 2 The situation on the ground is worse than ever.

Speaker 2 Hunger, hunger, hunger. There is hunger in Gaza.

Speaker 1 There is humiliation. You bring me aid to kill me.

Speaker 2 And Columbia University, where Edward Said taught from 1963 until his death in 2003, has been the epicenter of the student protest movement.

Speaker 2 Intense and dramatic standoff here at Columbia University and its crackdown.

Speaker 15 The school gave permission to the NYPD to remove pro-Palestine demonstrators.

Speaker 2 Columbia University's caving to the Trump administration grad student, Mahmoud Khalil, was in a federal immigration court.

Speaker 2 Among the scattered belongings that were left behind on the lawn were a few rumbled Palestinian flags, some sleeping bags, and a copy of Culture and and Imperialism by Edward Said.

Speaker 2 Though he passed more than 20 years ago, Said is still present in that conversation.

Speaker 2 Student protesters invoked his name with signs like this: Columbia, why require me to read Professor Edward Said if you don't want me to use it?

Speaker 2 His books are still taught in university classrooms across the world.

Speaker 18 When it comes to understanding the Middle East as a Westerner, there is perhaps no no concept more important than Edward Saeed's Orientalism.

Speaker 18 I mean, it was literally the first thing I was taught in a university lecture.

Speaker 2 His interviews have been circulating on social media, sparking conversations there.

Speaker 2 Think about Edward Saeed today because we're living in an era where politicians are being asked to step down for speaking up against genocide and being considered.

Speaker 19 The period we're living in is not the clash of civilization, but the clash of definitions.

Speaker 9 He was very adamant about understanding the human in all of the complexity.

Speaker 2 On this episode of Through Line from NPR, the life of Edward Said, the man who brought the question of Palestine into the mainstream, the pushback he got for doing that, and the dangers he foresaw that laid a path towards the current moment.

Speaker 2 Hello, this is Lisa Malloy from Charlestown, New Hampshire. You're listening to ThruLine from NPR.

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Speaker 1 Part 1

Speaker 2 The Professor

Speaker 23 The first time I met him was in 1967.

Speaker 2 This is Maryam Said.

Speaker 23 I am the widow of the late Edward Said.

Speaker 23 I knew one of his sisters sisters from the American University of Beirut. She was a classmate.

Speaker 2 She'd had a horseback riding accident.

Speaker 23 So I went to visit her in the hospital and he was there

Speaker 23 drinking coke and eating popcorn or chips, I don't recall.

Speaker 23 And I walked in and he said, oh, good, here's your friend. Now I can leave.
And he walked out.

Speaker 23 Two years later, I happened to meet him in Beirut.

Speaker 2 What was different about that time that made you connect with him?

Speaker 23 I don't know, but I noticed that he was looking at me.

Speaker 2 They started to talk.

Speaker 2 She knew Edward Said was a tweed-jacketed professor of literature at Columbia University, but she learned that he'd been born in Jerusalem, while Mediem had been born and raised not so far away in Beirut, Lebanon.

Speaker 2 Both of their childhoods were shaped by the founding of Israel in 1948. Both of them had been star students in school.
And the more they talked, the more connected they felt.

Speaker 23 We talked mostly about politics.

Speaker 24 On June 5th, 1967, the Israelis decided to strike first.

Speaker 23 The 1967 war.

Speaker 2 Also known as the Six-Day War. After Egypt mobilized mobilized its military, Israel launched a surprise attack against all of Egypt's air force bases.

Speaker 2 Egypt, Jordan, and Syria responded with force.

Speaker 25 They've been here all day and they began this war this morning at around 6 o'clock.

Speaker 2 But with the shock of the surprise attack and help from American weapons, Israel had the upper hand.

Speaker 23 And six days later, the whole war was lost.

Speaker 2 The Arab states accepted a ceasefire. Israel seized control of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, and the Golan Heights.

Speaker 12 Although, by international recognition, there are Palestinian territories that are supposedly sovereign, Israeli troops arrogate to themselves the right to militarily occupy it with no intention of leaving.

Speaker 22 The world I knew was shattered.

Speaker 27 There was a need need for an Arab voice. I mean, all we heard was the triumphalism of Israel, the triumph of the West.

Speaker 6 The chorus was deafening.

Speaker 24 Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkar must be the proudest man in the world, especially when he has.

Speaker 24 Sixty fantastic hours in which the Israeli forces have routed the armed might of their Arab neighbors.

Speaker 12 I think that the general consensus is that he was an apolitical man who was politicized by the setback of 1967.

Speaker 2 This is Timothy Brennan.

Speaker 12 The book that I wrote is called Places of Mind, A Life of Edward Said.

Speaker 2 The first comprehensive biography of Edward Said.

Speaker 12 Most of his students back before 1967 say that we all knew he was Palestinian.

Speaker 12 We all knew that he had his commitments to the Palestinian independence movement, but he just hadn't really kind of expressed it. Suddenly, he's moved to activism.

Speaker 12 But he doesn't know how.

Speaker 22 Your history is a result of a huge jumble of traces left inside you.

Speaker 22 Then I think what you have to do is to convert these traces into a narrative.

Speaker 2 Said spent his early years in the late 1930s and 40s going back and forth between what was then called Palestine and Cairo.

Speaker 2 And then, suddenly,

Speaker 2 he was cut off from his family home in Jerusalem.

Speaker 2 He watched as hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, including some of his family members, were forced to flee their homes after the State of Israel was created in 1948.

Speaker 12 His aunt played a very active role in receiving and caring for the huge number of Palestinians who were forced out.

Speaker 2 But on the other hand, he was living a life of privilege in Cairo.

Speaker 12 Opera, lush parks and tropical gardens and horse riding and polo and tennis courts and so on.

Speaker 12 He lived with this

Speaker 12 deep contradiction at the core of his experience.

Speaker 2 There were actually several contradictions at play in his life. The Sa'ids were a Christian family, part of a small religious minority in a majority Muslim country.

Speaker 2 Said was baptized in the Church of England, but lived in Egypt, a country that the British had colonized. Said spoke English at home, not Arabic.

Speaker 12 He literally dreamt in more than one language.

Speaker 2 And those contradictions all came with him when he moved to the U.S. for school school as a teenager.

Speaker 12 This is the world that he grew up in.

Speaker 29 We can break out of the confinement, to use a phrase from Foucault, and enter a community where we are as the others are.

Speaker 22 The important thing is to overcome separation.

Speaker 6 Philosophically, I think separation is an instrument of power designed to keep the inferior inferior.

Speaker 27 And so I want to overcome that.

Speaker 30 Through music, through literature, through thought.

Speaker 24 The legacy of the Six-Day War is a bitter occupation.

Speaker 22 Two people with the same claim on the same homeland.

Speaker 2 In the wake of the 1967 war, Said traveled to the Middle East, trying to understand what it meant.

Speaker 23 How it is seen from a Jordanian perspective, how it is seen from a Lebanese perspective.

Speaker 23 He had read a lot of stuff the Israelis had put up.

Speaker 2 And when he came back to his apartment in New York, he found the American perspective was shifting too.

Speaker 9 The post-67 cultural moment in the United States is also the moment when the United States becomes much more pro-Israel.

Speaker 9 And in that regard, it became much more dismissive of anything Palestinian.

Speaker 2 This is Mustafa Beyoumi, a professor at Brooklyn College who's also a former student of Said and co-editor of the Edward Said Reader.

Speaker 15 Every so often, the Middle East rushes out into attention with a clutch of headlines. Whenever some Arab potentate puts the squeeze on America for higher oil prices.

Speaker 2 The U.S. was becoming more dependent on Middle Eastern oil at the same same time that it was ramping up its military and financial support to Israel.

Speaker 9 The stereotype of the Arabs loomed larger and larger by the hour in the United States. Word spreads quickly.

Speaker 31 An Arab has attacked a Jew with a knife. Armed Jewish vigilantes rush up offering unwanted help.

Speaker 9 And there's no space in between for who the people really were, and especially what the situation was for Palestinians.

Speaker 2 Palestinians in the occupied territories were living under Israeli military rule.

Speaker 2 Some Israelis began to build settlements there, which the UN would eventually deem illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Speaker 2 And throughout the Middle East, Palestinian refugees felt the Arab nations had failed them, treating them as second-class citizens.

Speaker 9 It was an existential question, really, to claim one's Palestinian-ness

Speaker 9 in the post-67 momentum.

Speaker 2 A Palestinian national movement began to gain momentum.

Speaker 34 Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country.

Speaker 3 This was the scene at the Zaka airstrip in Jordan recently when the massive pall of smoke from three blazing airliners told a world which needed no reminding that the Palestinian guerrillas meant business.

Speaker 23 And then, beginning in 1968, the idea of kidnapping planes happened.

Speaker 3 The planes had all been hijacked by the guerrillas a week earlier.

Speaker 2 When he heard about the hijackings, Zaid told Mediem, It is a mistake.

Speaker 23 In the long run, it's a mistake.

Speaker 2 The hijacking of the planes, sort of armed resistance wing of the movement, arguably gave a lot of fodder to people in the U.S.

Speaker 2 government who could cast the entire movement in that light as being a terrorist movement, right? So he saw that even in that moment.

Speaker 23 Yeah, he always saw things others did not see.

Speaker 12 He tries to make the argument that the way forward is political, not military.

Speaker 2 The chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, a man named Yasser Arafat, was emerging as the movement's leader, but he mostly spoke Arabic, and in public appearances, he wore kefiya and army fatigues.

Speaker 2 He wasn't exactly relatable to the average American, and Said, who was living in the US and wasn't part of the PLO, thought he could help the movement by trying to humanize Arafat for the American public.

Speaker 2 In 1974, Arafat was scheduled to give a talk at the UN on behalf of the Palestinian Liberation Movement. This was a huge deal.

Speaker 2 It was the first time Arafat would be before the world advocating for Palestinians.

Speaker 23 It was mostly written, apparently,

Speaker 23 by Mahmoud Darwish in Arabic.

Speaker 2 Mahmoud Darwish, known as Palestine's national poet. But they needed an English version of the speech to give to the people in the room and to broadcast on TV and radio.

Speaker 2 There was already a rough translation, but they needed someone to really bring it to life.

Speaker 23 And they had 48 hours before he was supposed to deliver it.

Speaker 2 Said's travels around the Middle East had connected him with people on the front lines of the movement, and his reputation as a man who had a way with words had spread.

Speaker 23 So they called him and said, you have to translate it for us.

Speaker 2 Said holed up in a room with an editor and got to work.

Speaker 23 I had the privilege of typing because nobody knew how to type except me.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 finally,

Speaker 23 it was finished around three in the morning.

Speaker 2 They sent a car to deliver the translation just in time for Adifat to take the podium in front of the UN.

Speaker 2 Zaid's translation let the world understand Adifat's message.

Speaker 36 Mr.

Speaker 37 President, those who call us terrorists wish to prevent world public opinion from discovering the truth about us and from seeing the justice on our faces.

Speaker 2 At the end of the speech, Arafat says, Today I have come bearing an olive branch and a freedom fighter's gun.

Speaker 2 Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand.

Speaker 2 I repeat,

Speaker 2 do not let the olive branch fall from my hand.

Speaker 23 The Alev branch. People say that

Speaker 23 it was Edward's idea.

Speaker 22 And I was, I think, one of the first to realize that a good part of our war against Israeli occupation would have to be in the West, in the Western mind.

Speaker 2 Coming up.

Speaker 29 My troubles began then in the early 70s.

Speaker 39 Hi, this is Maria Montalvo from Chicago, Illinois. You are listening to Through Line at Antera.

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Speaker 20 Part 2.

Speaker 1 The spokesman.

Speaker 23 He never ever thought

Speaker 23 that it will shake the world.

Speaker 2 In 1978, Edward Said published a new book called Orientalism. And at the time, a lot was happening in the Middle East.

Speaker 2 The West Bank and Gaza remained under Israeli occupation. Civil war was raging in Lebanon, where the PLO was based.

Speaker 2 Egypt would soon sign a treaty with Israel, normalizing relations between the two countries. Iran was on the brink of an Islamic revolution.
And in the U.S., the shadow of Vietnam loomed large.

Speaker 9 Everybody who has been dominated by a colonial system in some way, shape, or form sees themselves in that book.

Speaker 2 This is Said's former graduate student, Mustafa Beyoumi.

Speaker 9 In Europe, the Orient, the so-called East, Muslim Middle East.

Speaker 12 What's important about that Orient, among other things, of course, is it's right there. It's right next to Europe.

Speaker 2 And this is Said's biographer, Timothy Brennan.

Speaker 12 Its proximity is precisely why there's an attempt, Edward is complaining, to

Speaker 12 try to create a wall, a cultural wall.

Speaker 2 Said writes, for Europe, Islam was a lasting trauma.

Speaker 2 Until the end of the 17th century, the Ottoman peril lurked alongside Europe to represent for the whole of Christian civilization a constant danger.

Speaker 12 The Orientalists that he's referring to in the title of the book are these French and English 19th century scholars who studied the Orient.

Speaker 33 This writing was an organized form of writing, like an organized science, you know, what I've called Orientalism.

Speaker 22 And it seemed to me that there was a kind of repertory of images that kept coming up.

Speaker 33 You know, the sensual woman who's there to be sort of used by the man.

Speaker 8 The East is a kind of mysterious place full of secrets and monsters.

Speaker 12 What Edward is trying to say, I think, is that there's a lot of mischief that happens in the act of representation. That you can create a reality that has no correspondence to another reality.

Speaker 9 What interested Said is the way those ideas just keep on replicating themselves.

Speaker 2 And then you end up with Aladdin.

Speaker 16 And then you end up with a central alien. Exactly.

Speaker 41 I come from a land, from a faraway place, where the caravan camels roam.

Speaker 41 Where it's flat and immense, and the heat is intense. It's barbaric, but hey, hey, it's home.

Speaker 2 When the winds are so bad, Said continues, always there lurks the assumption that although the Western consumer belongs to a numerical minority, he is entitled either to own or to expend, or both, the majority of the world resources.

Speaker 2 Why? Because he, unlike the Oriental, is a true human being.

Speaker 12 Palestine was imagined as an empty desert waiting to burst into bloom.

Speaker 2 Then the book turns to Said's birthplace.

Speaker 12 Its inhabitants, inconsequential nomads, possessing no stable claim to the land and therefore no cultural permanence.

Speaker 9 Who are the Palestinians? Where are the Palestinians? They don't exist.

Speaker 12 You know, so many of the people who call themselves Israelis come from Russia and the United States and from Europe.

Speaker 5 This war between peoples is, I believe, inextricably entangled with the fantasies, dreams, and ambitions of the West to rule rule and possess the East.

Speaker 5 To some extent, the state of Israel itself has been created and sustained by those fantasies, dreams, and ambitions.

Speaker 2 The book made waves and had plenty of critics. Some prominent British historians, like Bernard Lewis, thought his views were reductive, flattening the West while flattering the East.

Speaker 9 The answer to a stereotype is not, of course, a negative stereotype.

Speaker 2 Some academics from the East thought his focus on culture and identity overlooked the role of capitalism in all of this.

Speaker 2 Some said he minimized the complex identities and historical experiences of people within the Islamic Middle East, especially minorities like Christians, Kurds, and Jews.

Speaker 2 But Said also had defenders, including within the American Jewish community.

Speaker 12 He was a great lover of the book The Non-Jewish Jew by Isaac Deutscher, who made the case that one of the reasons why there's this universalist defense of justice

Speaker 12 and a kind of an attack on tribalist modes of thinking among so many great Jews in history, Spinoza or Trotsky or Rosa Luxemburg or Noam Chomsky in our own day, has to do with their marginal status and the fact that they had known oppression.

Speaker 2 Not long after Orientalism came out, Sa'id was preparing his next manuscript, this time a book all about Palestine.

Speaker 2 He said he hoped to make clear, quote, the Palestinian interpretation of Palestinian experience.

Speaker 2 But when Said came back to the publisher with a draft building on his ideas in Orientalism, about Europe and its relationship to the Jews and to Zionism with anti-Semitism, the anti-Semitism of Europeans.

Speaker 16 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And and describing the collision between Zionism and the Palestinians from the Palestinian perspective.

Speaker 23 The publisher was like, This is not what we wanted you to write.

Speaker 2 It's a dead end. And Said would be rejected again before he finally found a publisher willing to print it.

Speaker 2 In 1979, the question of Palestine hit bookshelves. And not only did it feature the Palestinian story, it proposed a vision for a future Palestinian state.

Speaker 19 We realize that we are being asked to pay the price for what happened to the Jews in Europe under the Holocaust.

Speaker 38 It was an entirely Christian and European catastrophe.

Speaker 11 And we are being dispossessed.

Speaker 22 We've become the victims of the victims. But not all of us say, well, they should be thrown out.

Speaker 22 So we have another vision, which is a vision of coexistence in which Jew and Arab can live together, which I think requires the kind of creativity and invention

Speaker 33 that is possible.

Speaker 2 Throughout the 1980s, Edward Said did everything in his power to convert his vision of a two-state solution into reality,

Speaker 2 even as violence intensified in the region. Israel launches a major assault assault into southern Lebanon.

Speaker 2 I think we are seeing in Lebanon now the development of some fringe groups that have some Iranian influence. Meanwhile, civil unrest is continuing in the Israeli-occupied Gaza Strip.

Speaker 2 Three more Palestinians were shot by Israeli troops.

Speaker 2 Saeed acted as a liaison between American officials and the PLO, a role he'd reluctantly played ever since the late 1970s, when Egypt's president named him the Palestinian representative to peace talks between Egypt and Israel.

Speaker 22 I opened the door one day and I found 300 journalists outside my door, and my whole life was transformed.

Speaker 2 But for the Palestinian struggle, he didn't believe high-level talks between officials was going to be enough.

Speaker 12 He writes constantly to friends back here in the United States, complaining about the disorganization of the PLO leadership and how to advance the struggle.

Speaker 2 He believed the narrative about Palestinians needed to change in the minds of the American public and politicians.

Speaker 2 And it would be an uphill climb.

Speaker 26 I think it's about time we stop those of us who support, as most of us do, Israel and this body for apologizing for our support for Israel. There's no apology to be made.
None.

Speaker 2 That's then-Senator Joe Biden expressing a view it was normal to hear on the floor of Congress and see in the pages of the New York Times.

Speaker 9 I think that the one group that probably

Speaker 9 captured his ire more than any other group in the United States was liberals.

Speaker 9 It was the liberal establishment that vaunted the state of Israel.

Speaker 26 It is the best $3 billion investment we make.

Speaker 2 So how would he change the narrative? With a pen and his voice.

Speaker 23 I remember the first talk I went with him. There was a lawyer from Haifa,

Speaker 23 and he was going to debate him.

Speaker 23 Edward fell apart. When we left, he threw up.

Speaker 2 But he kept going. He wrote for newspapers and magazines, went on talk shows, hosted documentaries, and agreed to debates.
In the mid-80s.

Speaker 22 I was to supposedly debate the Israeli ambassador.

Speaker 2 The ambassador to the United Nations named Benjamin Netanyahu.

Speaker 6 And then I found the most extraordinary thing that not only would he not sit in the same room with me, he wanted to be in a different building so as not to be sort of contaminated.

Speaker 2 There is no recording of the debate, but according to Edward Said, this is how it went down. They eventually ended up on a stage together, sitting in silence.

Speaker 2 And when the presenter said to the audience, Professor Said and Ambassador Netanyahu refuse to speak to each other, Said interjected, No, no, I'm perfectly willing to speak to him.

Speaker 2 The presenter then asked Netanyahu, Mr. Ambassador, why don't you speak to Professor Said? Netanyahu responded, because he wants to kill me.

Speaker 6 The whole thing was totally absurd.

Speaker 2 Said is basically acting as the kind of, you know, unofficial spokesperson for

Speaker 2 the movement.

Speaker 12 Very much so. Yeah, very much so.

Speaker 2 This is a professor at Columbia University, you know, one of the most elite universities in the U.S.

Speaker 2 And he faced a lot of heat for this, right? I mean, he was investigated by the FBI. How did he

Speaker 2 navigate the political sort of firestorm of being so vocal on the question of Palestine and Palestinian identity at a time when it wasn't very common to do that?

Speaker 12 His whole life was spent poring over how one

Speaker 12 needs to speak and how one needs to write in order to cross that unbridgeable chasm between the world of art and aesthetics and the world of political confrontation.

Speaker 24 The worst aspect of it is, of course, the occasional threat of violence.

Speaker 5 I mean, my office has been raided and vandalized.

Speaker 19 I've received death threats.

Speaker 5 I suppose in general I do feel, given the atmosphere surrounding Palestine and Palestinians in New York in particular, I do feel as if I'm a delinquent.

Speaker 5 Sort of before anything gets going, I am somehow guilty as charged.

Speaker 23 It was very scary sometimes,

Speaker 23 but we lived with it. I don't know how, but we lived with it.

Speaker 2 Sa'id and Mediam had two children by this point, and the threat of violence hung over all of them.

Speaker 23 You remember Kahani?

Speaker 23 He was threatened by the Kahani people.

Speaker 2 Meir Kahane was a far-right American rabbi who founded the militant Jewish Defense League in the U.S.

Speaker 2 and then moved to Israel and founded a political party that pushed for the expulsion of Palestinians. There is no Palestines, no Palestinians.
There never was, there never will be.

Speaker 2 Their house and let them go live in Jordan. During the 80s, you could find him lecturing on college campuses or talking on CNN.

Speaker 6 There is no coexistence possible with them. They have to leave.

Speaker 2 And while he was condemned by many American Jews and Israelis, he was also amassing a loyal following. Edward Said was near the top of their hit list.

Speaker 23 Kids broke into his office, Edward's office, at the university and burned the top of the desk.

Speaker 23 Colombia put bulletproof windows

Speaker 23 all around

Speaker 23 house.

Speaker 23 My son was always afraid that he was going to be killed as a little kid.

Speaker 9 I remember once walking into Said's office

Speaker 9 and he was just, you know, in the middle of a conversation with himself about these things.

Speaker 9 I remember him bellowing, saying, What they want is my silence.

Speaker 9 And they will never get it.

Speaker 9 I saw an army truck stop.

Speaker 2 Soldiers drag a young man towards the burning tires, kicking him and beating him with the butt of a rifle. In 1987, the first intifada, or uprising, broke out in the occupied West Bank and Gaza.

Speaker 25 These children are the ugly face of 20 years of frustration over Israeli occupation here.

Speaker 2 The militant Islamic group Hamas emerged in Gaza as a political opponent to the PLO. Things have gone to such an extent here that the people

Speaker 2 want a solution no matter through whom this will come.

Speaker 2 Meanwhile, the PLO decided to capitalize on the momentum of the first Intifada to begin to lay the groundwork for a future Palestinian state.

Speaker 2 They wanted the world to see them not only as a liberation movement, but a legitimate, peaceful state in waiting.

Speaker 2 So they called in Mahmoud Darawish and Edward Said to write a Palestinian Declaration of Independence.

Speaker 2 Darawish drafted the version in Arabic, Said translated it into English, and Yasid Adafat read it aloud in Algiers, a city with its own anti-colonial legacy.

Speaker 2 It outlined a vision for a Palestinian state that was secular, democratic, and committed to, quote, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Speaker 2 A contrast to the region's Arab countries, which were ruled by dictators with shoddy human rights records. And Adifat assumed the title as the President of Palestine.

Speaker 4 Either the Israelis will ultimately respond positively to this, and essentially the entire conflict will be resolved, or the Israelis will annex and ultimately move in the direction of some form of expulsion.

Speaker 2 Coming up, Edward Said clings to a dream of coexistence as reality looks more and more like a nightmare.

Speaker 43 This is is Kaluan Jocko calling in from Bowling Green, Kentucky, and you are listening to Through Line on NPR.

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Speaker 34 Part 3.

Speaker 2 The Humanist.

Speaker 2 In 1993, Chairman of the PLO, Yassed Adafat, and Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Rabin stood alongside U.S. President Bill Clinton on the White House lawn as they signed the first Oslo Peace Accord.

Speaker 2 We who have fought against you, the Palestinians, we say to you today,

Speaker 2 in a loud and a clear voice, enough of blood and tears.

Speaker 2 Enough.

Speaker 25 Now, as we stand on the threshold of this new historic era,

Speaker 25 let me address the people of Israel.

Speaker 2 Do you remember remember when Edward found out about Azlo? Did he find out with the rest of the world?

Speaker 23 Yeah, rest of the world.

Speaker 2 Adifat recognized Israel's right to exist, and the Israeli government recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinians, whom it gave limited governing authority in the occupied Palestinian territories.

Speaker 2 Much of the world celebrated, but Edward Said was furious at Adifat.

Speaker 6 He committed the Palestinians without without ever informing them of what he was committing them to. Even he didn't know it.

Speaker 6 One of his closest assistant, who in fact is the architect of Oslo, said that it took Arafat a year to understand that he didn't get a state.

Speaker 23 He was very upset, extremely upset, because you talk about democracy and you don't tell your people you are doing this.

Speaker 19 He was at a low ebb in terms of popularity and money, and so I think the agreement was a way of saving himself rather than thinking of his people.

Speaker 2 And while many in the American media touted it as the first step towards peace, Said was sounding an alarm.

Speaker 19 Nothing in the agreements that Arafat has signed says anything about the end of occupation. The Israelis are still there, the armies are still there, the settlements are increasing in size and number.

Speaker 19 So it's a terrible deal. In my opinion, the future really looks very, very bleak.

Speaker 23 He never talked to Arafat after that.

Speaker 12 And he came out looking like a prophet.

Speaker 19 The fact is that more Palestinians have been killed since the thing was signed.

Speaker 17 The Gaza Strip is a forsaken spot, a mixture of graffiti-filled deprivation and Israeli occupation.

Speaker 2 The militant Islamic group Hamas says the Israeli incursions have simply created more militants prepared to die for the Palestinian cause.

Speaker 2 The Hamas faction says one of its members blew himself up yesterday in a seaside hotel north of Tel Aviv just as a crowd was beginning a traditional Passover meal.

Speaker 43 Israeli police say 20 people died and some 130.

Speaker 35 This idea that somewhere we should protect ourselves against the infiltrations, the infections of the other,

Speaker 33 is, I think, the most dangerous idea at the end of the 20th century. The challenge now is coexistence.
How do we accept difference without violence and hostility?

Speaker 2 I'm thinking about this 90s and early 2000 period, the last decade of his life when he's watching the intensification of the occupation and he's watching violence between Israelis and Palestinians amplify.

Speaker 2 What maintained his belief in coexistence even in the face of those realities towards the end of his life?

Speaker 12 Because it's the only way to go. It's the only option left.

Speaker 12 The two-state solution, which is still formally maintained as the objective of the Palestinian leadership, is absolutely negated by what's already happened on the ground.

Speaker 12 Israel's been far too successful at separating all the little pockets of occupied territories from one another, creating a passcard system as the white South Africans did under apartheid.

Speaker 12 The only option left is a one-state solution. That's, I think, his vision for coexistence.

Speaker 33 Unless we find ways to do this, you know, there's going to be wholesale violence of the sort

Speaker 33 represented by the Gulf War, by the killings in Bosnia, the Rwandan massacre.

Speaker 2 But Said continued to face attacks, questioning the sincerity of that vision. One headline in Commentary magazine read, Professor of Terror.

Speaker 2 Shortly before Said's memoir, Out of Place, was released in 1999, an Israeli-American lawyer who had once worked for Israel's Ministry of Justice published a piece called My Beautiful Old House and Other Fabrications by Edward Said, questioning Said's claims of growing up in Palestine.

Speaker 27 He never talked to me, he never asked me any questions. I think he said it wasn't necessary.

Speaker 7 He did it all from the records.

Speaker 27 Be that as it may, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Washington Post, all the major newspapers carried either articles by him or about this.

Speaker 22 I submitted a rebuttal.

Speaker 28 None of them would publish it.

Speaker 22 Acting on a whim, I said, let me send it to Ha'aretz in Israel. They published it the next day in Hebrew.
So I could publish more easily in Israel than I can in the United States. Quite extraordinary.

Speaker 2 And then there was the rock heard round the world.

Speaker 2 In 2000, Said traveled to the Lebanese-Israeli border soon after the 22-year Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon ended.

Speaker 9 There's a lot of fencing at the border, and then there's like a no-man's land in between, washed towers that had been abandoned. And so people were picking up rocks and throwing it over the border.

Speaker 2 Said picks up a rock and throws it. A photographer snaps a photo.

Speaker 2 And then...

Speaker 9 Then that picture was widely interpreted as, oh,

Speaker 9 he's an apostle of violence. And the pro-Israel crowd latched onto it.

Speaker 12 And there were calls for his removal.

Speaker 2 His removal from Columbia University, where he'd been a professor for nearly four decades by this point, Said issued a statement where he described it as: quote, a symbolic gesture of joy that the occupation had ended.

Speaker 9 The administration stood by him and told him, Don't worry about it. We know who you are, we know what you stand for, and we are willing to withstand the pressure.

Speaker 22 Time is in only one one direction.

Speaker 11 And in a certain sense, the actual performance of a piece of music and the flow of music, there's something so inevitable about it, right?

Speaker 11 At the same time, that it's not recoverable because once you've played it, it's gone.

Speaker 44 It is this feeling of having lived through

Speaker 44 a life.

Speaker 2 Edward Said was diagnosed with cancer in 1991. He decided to use the time he had left to begin a new project based in his lifelong love of classical music.

Speaker 2 And he would do it alongside his close friend, Daniel Barenboim.

Speaker 2 Mr.

Speaker 11 Barenboim, can you remember that first meeting? What struck you about Mr. Said?

Speaker 44 I knew, of course, who he was and

Speaker 44 what he had written. And I found him extremely charming and very pleasant company.

Speaker 9 Daniel Barenboim is an Israeli Jewish conductor.

Speaker 23 His family emigrated from Argentina to Israel in 1952 or 53.

Speaker 2 And when Edward bumped into him in a hotel lobby in London in the early 90s, Daniel was the conductor of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. They hit it off immediately.

Speaker 11 I think the main thing is the fact that we're both passionate about music.

Speaker 2 In 1999, they decided to organize a workshop together, which would bring Palestinian, Arab, and Israeli musicians together in one orchestra to play a concert.

Speaker 2 And they would do it in a city in Germany called Weimar.

Speaker 22 Weimar is a very special city in German history.

Speaker 7 It was in East Germany, of course, but it also was a city of Goethe and Schiller, plus the fact that a few kilometers away was Buffenwald, one of the worst of the death camps.

Speaker 2 They were worried no musicians would want to be a part of the workshop given everything happening on the ground.

Speaker 2 But they got hundreds of applications from Palestinian, Israeli, Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian, and Egyptian musicians.

Speaker 23 When the orchestra performed in Weimar at the end of the workshop, there were Germans playing with Israelis and with Arabs.

Speaker 22 At the moment that they were playing,

Speaker 11 in a strange sort of way, their personal identities and histories sort of dropped away. They become sort of irrelevant.
And what's relevant is what they're doing towards you.

Speaker 2 After the workshop, Edward and Daniel decided to create a foundation together. to make the orchestra more permanent.
They called it the West Eastern Divan Orchestra. It faced some pushback.

Speaker 2 People who said that this is normalization, normalization of dangerous realities on the ground through one small example of harmony.

Speaker 23 But for Edward, Edward said this was the most important thing I did in my life.

Speaker 2 When Edward Said died in 2003, Mediam and Daniel teamed up to make sure the orchestra lived on.

Speaker 2 They've made space for Iranian musicians in the orchestra as well, and created a music conservatory in Berlin, Germany.

Speaker 2 In 2016, the West Eastern Devon Orchestra was named a UN Global Advocate for Cultural Understanding.

Speaker 2 I came across this poem that Mahmoud Darwish, the famous Palestinian poet, his friend for many years, wrote to honor him. It's called Tibak, which means counterpoint or contradiction.

Speaker 2 And there's this moment in the poem where Darwish is imagining a conversation with Edward Said.

Speaker 2 I say, life only known by its opposite is death. It is not life.
Says he, we shall live even if life leaves us alone. We must be the masters of words that will immortalize readers.

Speaker 2 If I die before you, I urge you to cling to the impossible. I asked, is the impossible distant? He replied, a generation away.

Speaker 2 What was that impossible thing that he clung to?

Speaker 9 Liberation, I think.

Speaker 9 Maybe it's two generations away now.

Speaker 14 A Palestinian village in the occupied West Bank.

Speaker 32 There is no such thing as a West Bank in Judea and Samaria.

Speaker 14 Dozens of Israeli settlers steal in, wearing balaclavas and carrying sticks.

Speaker 32 There's no such thing as an occupation of Judah.

Speaker 2 The weekend attack on Israel by hundreds of Hamas fighters has touched off a war.

Speaker 31 Videos show militants rounding up men, women, and children.

Speaker 2 More than 50,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza.

Speaker 32 An incredible piece of important real estate.

Speaker 5 Relentless bombardments of people have been pushed to the very brink.

Speaker 2 Children are starving.

Speaker 45 Every hospital is the sound of children screaming.

Speaker 38 I'm very puzzled by the constant concern which the world is showing for these horrible, inhuman animals.

Speaker 23 Everybody asks the question, what would he have said? Nobody knows what he would have said.

Speaker 23 He always had a vision that nobody else,

Speaker 23 in my opinion, nobody else had it.

Speaker 23 And he always said, you have to keep giving the people hope.

Speaker 9 The words of Edward Said provide some measure of

Speaker 9 continuity, of

Speaker 9 struggle, some measure of maybe even desire to look for life in a time of extreme death.

Speaker 9 He was a man who really represented

Speaker 4 the

Speaker 9 possibilities of life. And he represented it not just for himself, but for the Palestinian people.

Speaker 5 Is it too soon to expect that these histories of blind prejudice and powerful fantasy can be balanced and perhaps resolved by a more enduring history of ordinary lives, of reconciliation and recognition?

Speaker 38 That's it for this week's show.

Speaker 40 I'm Ramatina Adabzoui.

Speaker 2 I'm Randabdi Fatach, and you've been listening to Through Line from NPR.

Speaker 20 This episode was produced by me and me and Lawrence Wu, Julie Kay, Anya Steinberg, Casey Minor, Christina Kim, Devin Katayama, Irene Naguchi.

Speaker 40 Fact-checking for this episode was done by Kevin Vochl.

Speaker 2 This episode was mixed and mastered by Jimmy Keely.

Speaker 2 Thank you to VPRO and Levin and Werkin. Thanks also to Ambert C, Tony Cavan, James Hyder, Nadia Lancey, Johannes Durgee, Jessica Payne, Nicolette Kahn, Katie Doggart, Edith Chapin, and Colin Campbell.

Speaker 40 And finally, if you have an idea or like something you heard on the show, please write us at throughline at mpr.org. And make sure you follow us on Apple, Spotify, or the MPR app.

Speaker 40 That way, you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 Thanks for listening.

Speaker 20 This message comes from Vital Farms, who works with small American farms to bring you pastor-raised eggs.

Speaker 20 Farmer Tanner Pace shares why he believes it's important to care for his land and how he hopes to pass the opportunity to farm onto his sons.

Speaker 34 We are paving the way for a future. We only have one earth and we have to make it count.

Speaker 34 Like my boys, I want to see them taking care of the land for them to be able to farm and then generations to come.

Speaker 34 I really enjoy seeing, especially my whole family up there working with me and to be able to instill the things that my father, mother, and then grandparents instilled in me that I can instill in the boys.

Speaker 34 That's just the most rewarding thing that there could ever be.

Speaker 34 Vital Farms, they're motivated for the well-being of the animals, for the well-being of the land, the whole grand scope of things, they care about it all. You know, and that means a lot to me.

Speaker 20 To learn more about how Vital Farms farmers care for their hens, visit vitalfarms.com.