Sleepaway camp's nostalgia economy

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Speaker 10 I'm John Glenn Hill.

Speaker 11 This is Explain It to Me. And today on the show, we're going to camp.
Summer's sleepaway camp, to be specific.

Speaker 13 Nerves are normal, whether it is your first summer with us or if you've been to overnight camps before.

Speaker 14 I'm so fortunate to go to Sleepaway Summer Camp for two weeks.

Speaker 14 Bye, guys.

Speaker 11 I always imagined that Sleepaway Camp would be adventurous and life-changing.

Speaker 16 Kind of like in the parent trap, these long-lost twins meet each other for the first time at camp and decide they've got one shot to reunite their broken family.

Speaker 3 I wish I may. I wish I might.
Have my wish come true tonight.

Speaker 19 Despite the fact that I never went to sleep away camp, I'm very familiar with the concept.

Speaker 11 So how did camp get to be such a big deal anyway? I called up Leslie Paris to tell us.

Speaker 11 She teaches at the University of British Columbia and wrote a book called Children's Nature, The Rise of the American Summer Camp.

Speaker 24 It's never been the case that the majority of American children went to summer camps, but summer camps came to assume a really important

Speaker 27 place in American popular culture.

Speaker 22 They started in the late 19th century. The industry grew phenomenally in the early 20th century.
And it continues today in many respects quite similarly to the way it was 130 years ago.

Speaker 33 Okay, were there particular groups that developed this American summer camp as we know it or lots of different types of camps?

Speaker 14 Like how did we get camp?

Speaker 35 The first camps were founded by urban middle-class men who were concerned about boys.

Speaker 31 They were concerned about white boys who they saw as not

Speaker 37 getting enough outdoor adventure and the kind of manly experiences they would need to be, in the minds of these adults, the nation's leaders for the next generation.

Speaker 27 They were worried about the effects of urbanization and they were nostalgic for an earlier day when more boys had grown up in rural places.

Speaker 24 So this really began in the late 19th century, mostly in the 1880s onward.

Speaker 39 Very small groups of boys, but quickly the YMCA movement became involved in it.

Speaker 35 And by the turn of the century, the movement started really ramping up and ramping up not only because more YMCA camps were founded,

Speaker 28 but because more different organizations got involved and more groups of American adults thought this camp idea would be great for my kids too.

Speaker 24 You've got small numbers of women leading groups of girls out into the wilderness and saying this would be great for girls as well.

Speaker 36 They also need outdoor adventures.

Speaker 3 In the early 20th century, you've got a whole bunch of new movements, the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the Campfire Girls, and they all quickly start sending children out into the wilderness as well.

Speaker 43 Okay, so you write in your book that, quote, this triple nostalgia for the American past, for camp community, and for individual childhood experience is critical to understanding why camps have figured so influentially in American culture and in former campers' lives.

Speaker 33 I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit more.

Speaker 32 How so?

Speaker 9 Camps were a place where children learned nostalgia.

Speaker 22 And when they had a chance, many of those former children sent their own kids to camp.

Speaker 31 So this became a kind of a

Speaker 12 nostalgic cultural practice that for many adults reminded them of

Speaker 22 often the first time that they had an adventure away from their parents, away from their families.

Speaker 10 It's interesting. We asked asked our listeners to call in with their camp stories and so many people met their partners at summer camp.

Speaker 3 Hi, my name is Nina Velato.

Speaker 46 Summer camp was the best thing that ever happened to me. I met

Speaker 46 my husband and some lifelong friends and

Speaker 46 I'm not the only one that that happened to. My sister-in-law and brother-in-law also met at camp.

Speaker 46 Hi, my name is Tiffany Andrew. I grew up going to summer camp ever since I was seven and then all throughout college.

Speaker 46 Every summer I then worked at that summer camp and that is where I met my husband and

Speaker 46 we then got married at that same summer camp.

Speaker 10 Are these listeners, you know, special?

Speaker 15 Are they the lucky ones or historically have people made connections that last you know a lifetime at camp?

Speaker 39 Well, I'd say they're lucky, but they're not exceptional.

Speaker 24 Since the late 40s, early 50s, a lot more camps have been co-ed.

Speaker 26 Prior to that, there were camps that had a boys' camp and a girls' camp at the same lake, sometimes owned by the same people with some degree of socializing.

Speaker 10 Camp is so specific.

Speaker 33 How did you choose this as an academic subject?

Speaker 17 I knew that I wanted to work on American childhood.

Speaker 31 So one of the things that I look at in my book is

Speaker 9 how camps illuminate the ways in which childhood was transformed.

Speaker 10 I imagine that changes at summer camp also reflect changes in American childhood overall. I'd love to hear in broad strokes about some of those changes.

Speaker 18 How have we seen camp and therefore childhood change over time?

Speaker 40 One of the main changes

Speaker 37 that I look at is the rise of the idea of protected childhood, that childhood should be a time apart, that children should be protected from the adult world.

Speaker 22 Some of the working class kids at the turn of the 20th century who attended summer camps had never been on a vacation outside of the city.

Speaker 24 They went on vacations before their parents went on vacations.

Speaker 17 I feel like nowadays we keep hearing about how important it is for kids to get away from their screens.

Speaker 33 Camp is probably one of the ways to do that, right?

Speaker 27 Yes, but some of the same kinds of concerns that adults at summer camps have had were

Speaker 35 expressed in different ways a century ago, but there were concerns even then that modern culture was hard on kids and that they needed some kind of break.

Speaker 38 They were very concerned about kids reading comic books in their bunk or showing up with silk stockings.

Speaker 33 Oh, the scandal of it all.

Speaker 43 Many camps have become quite exclusive and expensive and tough to pull off for parents and kids' cluttered schedules.

Speaker 33 Have camps always been been big business?

Speaker 26 Originally, camps were not big business.

Speaker 30 There were a limited number of elite private camps, and

Speaker 26 increasingly, there were organizational camps, charitable camps.

Speaker 36 Those camps were not hoping to pull in a large profit.

Speaker 16 Leslie, I'm curious if you have any favorite depictions of sleep away camp in pop culture.

Speaker 12 Like, what's your go-to moment?

Speaker 26 I always think of the Simpsons episode, Camp Krusty.

Speaker 38 Bart and Lisa are sent to a camp that ostensibly is run by the local clown, Krusty the clown, but actually really isn't.

Speaker 31 It's been franchised, and the kids have a horrible time.

Speaker 30 The counselors are cruel, and finally, Krusty appears and makes amends when he realizes what's going on.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm going to make it all up to you. I'm going to show you kids the time of your life.

Speaker 33 But

Speaker 17 camps appear

Speaker 24 in a lot of modern American popular culture because I think this really gets back to this place of camps as spaces of adventure and opportunity for children.

Speaker 31 and for young adults because some of these movies are really focused on the counselors and the staff, that these are spaces where young adults and kids can have adventures that they wouldn't have had at home.

Speaker 10 All right, Leslie Paris, thank you so much.

Speaker 21 Thank you.

Speaker 11 Coming up on Explain It To Me, sleep away camp is a big deal on the big screen. Stay with us.

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Speaker 20 We're back with Explain It to Me, and we're talking about sleep away summer camp.

Speaker 33 Okay, so you're nervous, but you're excited.

Speaker 45 You've packed your bags, you're ready to write your mom and dad.

Speaker 33 But let's say you also packed some popcorn.

Speaker 20 That's because we're talking about the classic genre of summer camp movies, and we're joined by our producer, Devin Schwartz.

Speaker 32 Hey, Devin.

Speaker 42 Hey, JQ.

Speaker 42 So we already heard from Leslie Paris, who literally wrote the book on summer camp about The Simpsons Camp Krusty.

Speaker 42 But as we were working on this episode, our colleagues at Vox decided to share their summer camp movie classics with me.

Speaker 42 So I wanted to share a few of those with you and with our listeners.

Speaker 43 Okay, let's go to camp.

Speaker 20 Time to fire up that VHS.

Speaker 42 So first up is another one about a camp that's a bit of a mess. Wet Hot American Summer.
This 2001 cult classic is a favorite of our Chung, who works with Vox's podcasts.

Speaker 49 What's so great about that movie was that it was both a parody of and a loving homage to both summer camp and the summer camp movie genre.

Speaker 49 It's also gotten an incredible cast of Janine Garofilo, Paul Rudd, Amy Poehler, Elizabeth Banks, and it was Bradley Cooper's first movie.

Speaker 50 Andy, have you seen my swimming buddy? I was busy. It's your job to make sure kids don't drown.

Speaker 42 Wet, hot American summer.

Speaker 32 Okay, that is a throwback.

Speaker 51 So Devin, did you go away to sleep away camp when you you were a kid?

Speaker 42 Well, JQ, like lots of the cast in Wet Hot American Summer, I am Jewish. Probably not a surprise for my last name, Schwartz.
And so many of the camps felt a little too Christian-y for me.

Speaker 8 Okay, well, I used to go to this week-long thing for church called Sunday School Convention, and it was held at a 4-H facility, but my parents were the chaperones, so I was not getting too wild there.

Speaker 42 But unlike David Wayne, who directed the movie, I didn't go to Jewish camp either. But after college, I did work at a camp in rural Vermont, teaching playwriting and coaching soccer.

Speaker 42 It was the exact type of camp I probably would have loved as a kid. And on our last night together, the whole staff partied in a bit of a buccanol, and we watched Wet Hot American Summer.

Speaker 32 Okay, that is very cool.

Speaker 33 Wasn't there...

Speaker 43 a movie about theater camp not too long ago?

Speaker 42 Yeah, that's right. So this is a 2023 mockumentary that Maeve Dunnegan from the Dodo, a Vox sister site, absolutely loves.

Speaker 37 As someone who went to theater camp every summer as a kid and treated our production of Susicle as if it were Shakespeare, I could really relate to the cartoonish levels of sincerity with which the characters in this movie approach children's theater.

Speaker 52 I'm not going to sugarcoat it emotionally, physically, and spiritually. This is our most complicated piece we've ever tried to do.

Speaker 53 You guys are so talented, so unbelievable. This will break you.

Speaker 53 This will fully destroy you.

Speaker 52 Congratulations on being the most talented kids at camp.

Speaker 37 You practically feel like you're there, highlighting your lines and twitching your jazz hands right alongside them.

Speaker 33 Oh my God, jazz hands.

Speaker 32 That takes me back to show choir and a good box step.

Speaker 42 Absolutely. And what's so fun is the stars of theater camp actually went to theater camp together back in the day.

Speaker 43 I imagine a lot of filmmakers went to some kind of theater or performing arts camp, so it kind of falls in line with the stories they'd want to tell.

Speaker 42 Exactly. Write what you know and all of that.
And I'm not sure if that's the case with the 2003 film Camp, but it's also set at a performing arts camp.

Speaker 42 Fox's culture writer Constance Grady brought this one up not because it's great cinema per se, but because of a shy, awkward camper played by a very young Anna Kendrick who finally breaks out of her shell at the end of the movie.

Speaker 42 That's when she sings.

Speaker 23 Ladies Who Lunch from Sondheim's Company, and she absolutely blows the rest of the movie out of the water. Let's hear it for the Ladies to lunch.

Speaker 11 Everybody run.

Speaker 23 The story goes that Santime saw her do it and he went,

Speaker 23 she has great teeth.

Speaker 45 Okay, there, listen, there are weirder compliments that you could get, but I can really picture that moment of, you know, blossoming, of growing up and showing out.

Speaker 33 And that seems like a hallmark of these camp movies. So Leslie Paris told us earlier about how nostalgia and sleepaway camp, they're such big things.

Speaker 51 Did anyone bring that up with you?

Speaker 42 Big time. A lot of people brought up the nostalgia piece.
So Carrie Keeter works with Vox's brand partnerships team and she recommends the 1993 film Indian Summer.

Speaker 2 Indian Summer.

Speaker 54 It has feelings of nostalgia. It's heartfelt.
It brings together friends that have known each other from childhood through adulthood, and that is truly the meaning of camp.

Speaker 51 Oh, I think we got a future camp director in our midst.

Speaker 42 Yes, very much could be. But of course, not everything is seen with rose-colored lenses because,

Speaker 42 you know, JQ, camp isn't always safe.

Speaker 16 Not safe?

Speaker 18 What do you mean by that?

Speaker 42 Well, you see, nostalgia for sleepaway camp, it has a scarier side to it. Horror films set at camp.

Speaker 32 Ooh, spooky, okay.

Speaker 42 Yes, see, it's a whole cottage industry at this point. You're out there in the woods, isolated.
You don't know if those sounds at night are animals or something far more dangerous.

Speaker 42 Peter Ballinon Rosen is my fellow producer on Today Explained and explained it to me. Well, he shouted out the Friday the 13th movies, which center around Camp Crystal Lake.

Speaker 55 We've got horny teenagers getting killed. We've got the story of the length family will go for each other.
And across this summer camp setting, we've got great jump scares.

Speaker 55 This is a movie that could only happen at summer camp.

Speaker 15 Ooh, no, thank you.

Speaker 16 I do not want to get slashed at camp.

Speaker 42 I know. I'm not big on slasher films myself, but this one seems to have staying power in the culture.

Speaker 42 The first one came out in 1980, and the 12 or so films are all based based on the mythology of a camper-turned villain named Jason Voorhees.

Speaker 42 He drowned in the lake after his fellow campers threw him in. They were kind of bullying him.
The counselors, they weren't paying attention because they were off having sex.

Speaker 18 Oh, and we all know that sex is the number one no-no in horror films, right?

Speaker 42 Yeah, that's a common trope. If you find love or at least lust, you're next on the list.

Speaker 33 Okay, the summer camp watch list is getting pretty long, and I admit that I am almost out of popcorn.

Speaker 15 Let's do one more.

Speaker 42 Okay, sure thing. Let's hear about goosebumps from Anna North.
She writes the Kids Today newsletter for Vox.

Speaker 6 Growing up, my brother and I loved the Goosebumps books by R.L.

Speaker 6 Stein and the TV show and a big favorite of ours was called Welcome to Camp Nightmare, in which a whole bunch of really scary stuff happens at a sleepaway camp.

Speaker 56 Why is it just us? Why doesn't anybody else think anything happened?

Speaker 2 I gotta find a phone.

Speaker 55 Call my parents.

Speaker 2 Tell them to come pick me up and get me out of this hole.

Speaker 33 I don't know that I would sign up for that camp. What kind of scary stuff happens in that one?

Speaker 42 Sorry, JQ, no spoilers on this one. You're gonna have to get some more popcorn and add it to your camp watch list.

Speaker 17 Okay, fine.

Speaker 42 But as it turns out, Anna herself isn't the biggest fan of sleepaway camp.

Speaker 6 You definitely do not need to send your kids to sleepaway camp. If you don't go to sleepaway camp, you will be fine as a person.

Speaker 20 Okay, I definitely want to hear more about that. And luckily for us, after the break, more from Anna on summer alternatives to sleep away camp.

Speaker 19 Stay with us.

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Speaker 19 Before the break, we heard from my colleague Anna North. She's a senior correspondent at Vox and she covers family life.

Speaker 19 She has children of her own, so she needs to think about how kids spend their summer. And I wanted her theory about why camp looms so large in our collective imagination.

Speaker 6 It's this

Speaker 6 place where there are no parents, which is really fun and exciting for kids to think about and also scary scary for kids to think about.

Speaker 6 And those are just really important ingredients of a good story.

Speaker 19 Oh, that's so interesting.

Speaker 47 So, how old are your little ones?

Speaker 6 Yeah, my kids are seven and two and a half. So, they're definitely too young for sleep away camp.

Speaker 17 What do their summers usually look like?

Speaker 6 So, my little one still goes to daycare, and daycare is actually open most of the summer, so he will continue doing what he does.

Speaker 6 And my big kid is in school, so he is doing a combo of Lego camp and then also craft camp. And we'll travel a little bit in there too.

Speaker 15 Okay, is sleepaway camp worth it?

Speaker 6 You know, not every kid does sleep away camp. It can be expensive.
It's really not for younger kids. You know, a kid has to be a certain level of maturity to be able to handle it.

Speaker 6 When you talk about camp generally for the summer though, Just practically speaking, a lot of families need camp because school is out and parents are still working.

Speaker 6 This is like this huge conundrum that families face because like kids are not in school 365 days a year, but American parents, like what? We get, you know, two weeks vacation. It's not very much.

Speaker 6 So it's a real mismatch.

Speaker 19 I think one of the issues we've heard about is this intense planning that goes into kids' summers these days.

Speaker 44 Like it's complicated, it's competitive, it's expensive.

Speaker 47 Can you talk about that pressure a little bit? That seems like a lot.

Speaker 6 Yeah, absolutely. So

Speaker 6 it's a huge source of pressure for families. Kids typically are off for a couple months every summer.

Speaker 6 People start signing up for summer camps in January, and that sounds like it's, you know, these type A parents, you know, being really extra, but actually, you know, a lot of camps will fill up really early, and that includes camps that might be more affordable.

Speaker 6 So, you know, you might actually have to scramble to get your kid into a camp that,

Speaker 6 you know, one might be a good fit and two is not going to like break your budget.

Speaker 6 And, you know, it's obviously about making sure that kids have a fun summer, but it's also just making sure that they're taken care of and that they're having an okay time while the parents are doing what they need to do.

Speaker 19 Okay, so summer sleep away camp is not an option for everyone.

Speaker 41 Some people don't want to do it.

Speaker 19 What are other ways for kids to spend their summer that you would recommend?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, I would say probably most kids do a day camp at some point.

Speaker 6 Certainly, like, you know, here in New York, especially among kids, like my kids' age, that's the most common option. A lot of them are expensive, but there are more affordable options.

Speaker 6 The YMCA camps tend to be more affordable than some of the others. Some camps have sliding scales, so, you know, depending on income, you might be able to pay less.

Speaker 6 It's also worth checking out, a lot of school districts have summer schools and/or summer schools that are like a little bit more fun and a little bit more camp-like.

Speaker 6 I know New York City has a program called Summer Rising that a lot of kids are doing. So these are all options too.
Like there's definitely stuff out there at a variety of price points.

Speaker 6 It's just a matter of the parents having to kind of do like work, unfortunately, of looking it all up.

Speaker 19 What do you make of like letting the summer be kind of chill? Like I think of it and, you know, my parents, they would do like, okay, here's a nature day camp or like, you know,

Speaker 19 we'll bounce you around some different vacation Bible schools like in the evening. But a lot of my summer was spent kind of like

Speaker 19 lounging, eating ice cream, watching VH1 and reading like chapter books. I wonder, like, do kids, like, is it okay for kids to get that unstructured time?

Speaker 47 Because I know kids thrive on routine.

Speaker 6 Yeah, so I have a lot of feelings about this.

Speaker 6 So, every summer, I feel like there will be an op-ed or a big viral essay about how you should let your kids be bored during the summer.

Speaker 6 Recently, the New York Times actually had a story about families that are choosing like not to send their kids to camp and just kind of letting them hang around the house.

Speaker 6 I think there's a couple things to think about there. One is like the parents' work schedule.

Speaker 6 If you have a lot of flexibility and you can say, okay, I'm going to work from home for the whole summer, or we're going to take off a bunch of time and I'm going to travel with my kids, that's great.

Speaker 6 And that really changes the flexibility of your summer. If all the adults in your family are working full-time jobs in the summer, it just becomes a lot harder, especially at younger ages.

Speaker 19 Is there anything going on policy-wise to help like kids with summer?

Speaker 6 I mean, unfortunately, things are a little bit going in the opposite direction.

Speaker 6 I guess I will say that, you know, individual cities, I think, have been moving to try to offer more both after-school and like school break camp options.

Speaker 6 So I think Los Angeles has been looking at this.

Speaker 6 But at the federal level, President Trump has actually proposed to zero out federal funding for after-school and summer learning.

Speaker 6 That's something that a lot of folks that are involved in after-school and school break learning are really concerned about because there is federal money that goes to support some of these programs.

Speaker 6 And some after-school programs run their own camps. So, obviously, anything that harms after-school programs is a problem for camps, too.

Speaker 19 Yeah, I'm curious about your thoughts on year-round school. You know, this is something that's been piloted in Philadelphia, for example.

Speaker 44 Could that help parents with sort of that summer stress for families and kids?

Speaker 6 You know, there have been longer school days and school years piloted. It's not necessarily a slam dunk in terms of being better for instruction.

Speaker 6 It's not necessarily true that kids would learn better if they went to school all the time. They certainly don't want to do that.
Kids do need time to play, they need time to relax.

Speaker 44 When I look back on childhood, there's this certain feeling that summer has, and I even have it now as an adult. There's still this pressure of like, this has to be the best summer ever.

Speaker 19 And I can only imagine having a family and feeling the pressure to give your kid the best summer ever.

Speaker 50 How do parents navigate that?

Speaker 19 Like, why is there so much pressure?

Speaker 44 Why can't we just relax and enjoy the warmer weather?

Speaker 6 I do think something to remember is that, like, your kids are making their own memories, and you don't have to curate everything.

Speaker 6 And even in a camp that might not be their most favorite, they're still probably doing some fun stuff.

Speaker 6 But I guess as a parent, I just like try to accept that sometimes the summer is just going to be stressful. And that's how it's going to be.

Speaker 6 Like traveling with kids, especially young kids, like is stressful. It's not really a vacation.
Like it's important to see your family.

Speaker 6 It's positive. They will have good memories.
Do I enjoy being on the plane with a toddler? I don't. I don't enjoy it.
I don't think he enjoys it either.

Speaker 3 It's okay.

Speaker 32 I know their little ears.

Speaker 41 I'm like, oh, you don't know to yawn yet.

Speaker 47 It helps.

Speaker 10 All right, Anna North, thank you so much for explaining this to us.

Speaker 6 Thank you so much. Great to be here.

Speaker 16 Okay, before we let you go, we want to ask you something.

Speaker 11 We have a series coming up on wellness.

Speaker 15 Why we spend so much money on it these days?

Speaker 11 What wellness even means?

Speaker 10 And we want your thoughts.

Speaker 17 How are you thinking of caring for your mind and your body these days?

Speaker 8 Give us a call at 1-800-618-8545.

Speaker 19 This episode was produced by Devren Schwartz.

Speaker 15 It was edited by Miranda Kennedy, fact-checking by Sarah Schweppy, and engineering by Matthew Billy.

Speaker 18 I'm your host, John Glynn Hill.

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