The Yogurt Shop Murders /// Part 2 /// 867

So, um, I was just parking my car and then I saw you, the Gecko, huge fan.

I'm always honored to meet fans out in the wild.

The honor's mine.

I just love being able to file a claim in under two minutes with the Geico app.

Well, the Geico app is top-notch.

I know you get asked this all the time, but could you sign it?

Sign what?

The app?

Yeah, sure.

Oh, that means so much.

Oh, it rubbed off the screen when I touched it.

Could you sign it again?

Anything to help, I suppose.

You're the best.

Get more than just savings.

Get more with Geico.

To get real business results today, you need professional-looking content.

Meet Adobe Express.

It's the easy way to make social posts, flyers, presentations, and more.

Start fast with Adobe quality templates and assets.

Make edits in one click.

Stay consistent with brand kits and collaborate easily with colleagues.

Your teams can finally create with AI that's safe for business.

Try Adobe Express, the quick and easy app to create on-brand content.

Visit adobe.com/slash express.

welcome to off the record.

It's good to be seen, and it's good to see you

off the record.

Thanks for listening, thanks for telling the friends.

True Crime Podcast:

Be good, be kind, and don't live.

True crime,

gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer, let's talk some

The second episode in the series was titled The Fifth Victim.

Rotten Tomatoes' description of this episode is trauma continues to haunt the community as family members search for healing, resolution, and ways to hold on to the memories of the girls.

The initial suspicions around the four teenage boys lead nowhere.

After several false leads and wrongful arrest, homicide supervisor Hector Polanco is found to have coerced a suspect into a false confession and is reassigned.

Lead investigator John Jones is diagnosed with PTSD and is taken off of the case.

That's something you were talking about earlier in our conversation here, seeing Jones, Detective Jones, in his struggle and what this case has done to him.

on a physical, emotional, probably even a spiritual level.

And when we catch up with Jones later, so I don't know, they didn't go into this.

If they did, I missed it.

So we see Beverly Lowry a couple times

during the docu series.

And she is just such a brilliant author, brilliant true crime author.

If you're, for the folks in listener land, if you watched the documentary and you loved it, read her book.

If you watched the documentary and you hated it, read her book.

If you thought it was okay, read her book.

The book is, if you are into the case and want to know a lot more about the case, the actual case information, read her book.

And why I say she's so brilliant is the way this is a very complicated and a very lengthy story.

And what makes her brilliant is the way that she constructed the story.

The order that she chose to take the reader on this journey with her was absolutely brilliant.

But in her book, again, I don't know if the docuseries covered this with Detective Jones, who I seem to, I like.

I don't know why.

I just feel like I like this guy.

Yeah.

I feel like he's the kind of guy that, like, hey, let's have a couple beers and shoot the shit.

Like, I think, I think he, he just seems like that kind of guy.

But he, from my understanding, if I'm remembering from her book correctly, I think this case and his job cost him more more than just what we see on the screen.

He ends up getting a divorce.

You see at one point, you know, you see his daughters there.

And I think he said something in Beverly.

So he would meet with Beverly Lowry and they would have breakfast like many, many mornings in a row.

And they would go over the case together so she could write the book.

She said that when they were meeting and going through the case file and talking about the case, some of it was hell for this guy because he was having to like relive stuff in front of her and experience things almost again.

You know, you have a case here where four victims are all female victims, young female victims.

Detective Jones is the only male in his home.

You know, it's his wife and it's his daughters.

And he said something to Beverly Lowry to the effect of, I was the only guy in the house.

Well, there was the dog, but he ran away.

And you know why I think you would dig Jones?

I believe he was a music major in college, and he was going to school for, I don't remember what instrument he played, but he was a music major at a college

in the area there.

And

he

needed money.

And he, they, the Austin PD were hiring right when he got, I believe he graduated college and he's like, you know what, I'll just, this is a job that will pay well and have good benefits.

I don't know that he intended to be there for and make a career out of it.

Yeah, he he was a music major.

Well, and a lot of that probably has to do with what he saw.

It's one thing to examine these cases from afar, but for the individuals, the first responders that showed up at that scene that night, that forever changed their lives and probably

their futures.

And

it's the terrible burden of feeling like you let the victims down and you let the families down.

Hell, he says, and he said, look, maybe I did get too close to it.

But again, how could you not, right?

You can't fault a guy for getting too close to a case, especially one like this one.

He said at some point that one of the victims' parents told him, like, we think you need to take a vacation and kind of get away from this for a while.

Like, can you imagine the grief-stricken parents have to tell the detective to take a break because they can see what it's doing to him?

Well, I was thinking about this.

There's a handful of cases that we have covered.

Maybe we've covered them multiple times, but and I won't say which cases those are for me, but there's two or three cases that if somebody brings up in conversation, I really just don't want to talk about it anymore.

I didn't get the

maybe I get it now that we're having our conversation, but the title, the fifth victim, maybe Jones is the fifth victim.

No, I think it's everybody.

Everybody.

The town.

It's the family members.

It's the four boys that get accused.

Yeah.

I mean, look, I think there's people that are out there that can still look at these guys as viable suspects.

And I think that's okay.

One of the things about this documentary that irked me a little bit, and I don't know how you feel about this, but whether it's the prosecutors or it was the defense team, it didn't seem like a lot of people wanted the truth as much as they just wanted to be right.

I agree with that.

I don't know.

I don't know if I agree with it across the board, but I definitely

not across the board, but like you see that over and over.

And look, it could just be at that time and maybe that person changed their stance on some of this stuff later.

I think there's many moments where people are making statements where you're like, are you just, do you just want these four guys to be guilty?

Or are you trying to find the truth of what happened?

Well, and that is why I think I like Jones so much, because with every

theory that's out there, every possible suspect, he always goes back to, well,

where's the evidence?

And we got to be able to prove it.

It doesn't matter what we think, we got to be able to prove it.

Where Johnson, who's received a whole lot of praise, and look, he does have a great career.

He's taken on a lot of big cases.

But with Johnson,

I'm not going to say that I dislike the guy, but it's, but you can easily see that when something doesn't, when parts of the confession does not fit the evidence, he will then rework it to fit, to make things fit.

Even with the fire.

Remember, he's the one that goes back and says, well, we talked to the fire guy and the fire guy said, you know what?

It could have started over here or it probably did start this way.

And when the gun doesn't match multiple times, then it's like, well, those 22 bullets get all messed up and they're easily damaged and it would be too tough.

No, that's like, I get what you're saying, Johnson, and I get what maybe the conversations are behind closed doors about the bullets aren't going to, you're going to have a tough time testing these bullets or getting a match on them.

But I've also heard other people talking about this case, people that are qualified, people in law enforcement, in the two books that were written about this case, that very flat out say the bullets didn't match, the ballistics didn't match, and they were tested multiple times.

And they don't sit there and try to rhyme or reason why they didn't match.

It just didn't match.

Like it, that's not your gun.

That's not your gun.

And even when presented with that, Johnson later says something or somebody presents the idea of, well, we know Maurice Pierce had access to other guns.

Yeah, I think you have to have a level head about you.

And I think he says in episode four, I wish I would have wrote it down, but he basically said, I had a thought of what happened, and then the confessions prove that.

Okay, so you had a theory, and then you got people to confess to the theory that you thought was plausible.

That's not how it works.

You should interview these guys, and then if they do confess, that points your investigation into a certain direction.

Now, this is not proof of anything, but it's very interesting.

So, or at least I find it to be interesting.

I think everybody will here.

Before we started talking today, I gave you a picture.

In our

fury here,

in frenzy,

you may have lost it.

Is it the one where you're hung just above the knees?

Right.

If you sink my trousers down.

My knees are down.

If you shake my trousers down, I'm just hung below the knees.

Call me low knees, Nick.

Long ball, Larry.

When they are talking, when they're talking with Springsteen, one of the accused, and he's the one that ends up going on death row.

And when they first sit him down years later and they said, you know, what were you doing that night?

And he goes, well,

I was doing what I did almost every Friday and Saturday night.

I went to the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

And they go, well, you couldn't have.

He goes, Why not?

He says, Well, it wasn't showing that night.

Well, I gave you a picture, and we'll put this on our

social as well.

That's a lie.

I mean,

I have the newspaper advertisement of the showtimes.

You know, when we were kids, you didn't have to get online.

You would either call the movie theater to hear the showtimes or you would look in your newspaper.

And it's right here, North Cross 6 at the North Cross Mall.

Right.

And it says, Rocky Horror Picture Show rated R midnight.

Showing at midnight.

So it doesn't mean that I'm not saying that this picture here means that they didn't kill the girls.

I'm not saying that this picture here proves that he couldn't have been at the yogurt shop because he was at the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Because what we do know is when the flames were reported, so when the call goes in that there is a fire at the yogurt shop, before they even know that anybody's dead, that call, we have the bus, we got the fire truck on the way at 11:47 p.m.

So what do we know about that?

We know the killers were gone from the yogurt shop and it was on fire at 11.47 p.m.

We know that the no sale button was recorded as being pressed to open up the register, giving access to the money at 11.03 p.m.

And this is something we went through extensively in our previous episodes.

Here's the thing.

If you didn't, you got to go back and listen to those episodes.

And we'll give you some information on those on how easy it will be to find them here in a minute.

But one of the things we went through was everything, all these horrible things that happened inside of that tiny little yogurt shop happened between 11.03 p.m.

and 11.47 p.m.

That's not up for debate.

There's so much shit that's up for debate in this case.

That's not up for debate.

Those are facts.

So everything that happened, every horrible thing that happened in that yogurt shop happened in the course of 44 minutes.

Conceivably, could somebody have done that, set the place on fire, and then went the, what, two miles from the yogurt shop to the North Cross Mall and gone and seen the Rocky Horror Picture Show at midnight?

Absolutely.

Right.

But what we can say is that statement from police to Springsteen that got him jammed up real quick because you saw how quickly that frazzled his brain.

That

statement is not accurate.

When they say, well, it wasn't even showing that night.

So you couldn't have been there.

Well, it actually was.

And I have the newspaper here to prove it.

Friday, December 6th, 1991, North Cross Mall, North Cross 6, Rocky Horror Picture Show, midnight.

And we have to go a little deeper here.

You have four individuals when they're talked to by law enforcement.

Almost all four of them say, Well, what were we most likely doing?

We're probably hanging around the mall.

What would be connected to the mall?

The cinema.

So it's not a definitive alibi by any means.

My argument against these four boys is if you went to the show, where's your receipt?

It's not uncommon, especially during this time.

You went to the movies that you kept.

This doesn't come up until like seven years later, though.

If they have a movie stub from seven years ago, I, you know what I mean?

So that's when Springsteen gets jammed up on this.

No, I understand that, but I'm saying when they're initially questioned,

if you have four individuals that you think were somewhere and they can prove that they're somewhere else and normally when you get a sticket when you get a ticket stub not only does it say hey rocky horror at midnight the midnight showing it normally also says when they printed out that ticket so if that ticket was printed out at 1130 that would almost be an alibi So all I'm saying is I get your point.

It jams them up seven, eight years later.

But when they're initially questioned, questioned, I think there's but see, I would have to go back because I'm, I'm not convinced that Michael Scott and Springsteen were even spoke to originally.

Remember,

the whole idea of what happened days later when Maurice Pierce is arrested with a gun in the mall, when he spoke to their whole, the police, if they thought these guys were involved in any way, shape, or form, their theory then was completely different than what it was seven or eight years later.

I'm not,

I would have, we would have to ask the officers, but I would want to dig through it.

Maybe I'm misremembering, or maybe there's a part of the docuseries that I'm not remembering correctly.

But I believe from everything I've reviewed that only Maurice Pierce and Forrest were talked to

back in 1991.

Right, but if we just take their two statements, both of them were, we're probably at the mall, two of them.

So if you do investigative work, if you do your freaking job and you call these four guys in, then we're going to get some kind of answer of where they're at.

And it's, it's not crazy to think that seven, eight years later that these kids don't remember what they were doing that night.

Yeah, so that's where they get janned up is when they're talking to him seven years later.

And this is where you got to give Johnson some credit because he's like, all four of the guys say that

they were together that night, but each one of the four says they were in a different place or doing a different activity.

So he's like, their alibi is no good because it would appear that all four of them, yes, they were together, but three of them are either misremembering or incorrect, or all four of them are misremembering or incorrect, or all four of them are lying and they didn't know what lie the other one was going to tell us.

Right.

And so that's where you got to give Johnson credit,

where you really got to question the investigation investigation early on.

And keep in mind, they had so much stuff going on.

The closer you go back, the more you go back and the closer to the actual murders, the more of a frenzied investigation it is because you have everybody, all these investigators getting torn and pulled into 9,000 different

directions.

Well, and

I think it's a good move to pull Polanco off the case because this individual was not interested in the truth.

This individual was good

at interrogation and getting people to just say whatever they thought he wanted to hear.

And again, it's pretty simple.

We got these four individuals.

If they were properly questioned and properly vetted within a month of the crime, we wouldn't be sitting here with all these unanswered questions today.

Well, we wouldn't have

the,

I think one thing that has made this case way more complicated than it is or should be is: are these four actually guilty?

And for a lot of people in law enforcement and people close to this case, there's still people out there to this day that believe that the four, these four guys did it, right?

And I think there's some family members, which would be part of the fifth victims that still think that these guys are guilty.

Again, we look at these cases through our lens.

In my mind, I can't understand without physical torture, somebody confessing to a crime, a heinous crime.

Now, if you said, well,

this kid

stole some bubblegum from the local corner shop.

And we brought him in for questioning, and

there's really no penalty, no severe penalty.

So you got them to confess, okay, I see that.

My brain will always have a hard time wrapping its head around confessing to a heinous crime.

Oh, yeah, especially when we're talking about rape and murder and multiple murders.

And it look, but here's the part where the docu series failed, I thought, because they really went into exploring false confessions.

And I'm glad that they did because that's the most difficult part for me to wrap my head around too.

When I watch portions of Michael Scott confessing or getting, you know, them dragging the confession out of him, when I watch portions of Springsteen going through the same thing, I say, I'm like,

there's no way, there's no way that they would say this.

But where the docuseries failed is they need to have those guys, because what we what we don't understand what gets

they're sitting down with the cops and both scott and sprenstein believed that if i just tell them what they're trying to get me to say that at some point i'll get out of this room and then we can sort it out later like they'll hook me up to a lie detector they'll they'll further investigate the things i said and they'll find out that that that I'm not correct.

Because, I mean, you saw the part and they, I wish they would have expanded on this part here because I've seen longer versions of these

interrogation.

And that's what I call it.

This is an interrogation.

This isn't questioning.

Michael Scott is telling them over and over again.

He's like, I'm either lying or I don't know.

Or I can't remember.

And it's like, he's, he's trying to tell everybody, like,

I'm saying the shit you guys want me to say because I'm lying to you.

I'm lying to you because I, that's the only way I think that I'm getting out of this room.

The docuseries does talk and throw a lot of shade on,

well, you know, the cops, the cops are allowed to lie to you.

The detectives are allowed to lie to you.

And if you don't know that, well, then you're going to make a false confession.

I don't give it.

I don't care.

I'm totally fine with detectives lying to suspects.

I'm totally fine with that.

I have no problem with that at all.

Right.

And I actually like that

they can lie to the suspect or the innocent person or witness or whoever.

I like that.

Why?

Because most of the people they talk to in interview are lying to them.

So

let's keep it an even playing field here.

What I don't, well, where I will not get on board with is when that cop takes the gun and pokes Scott in the back of the head with it.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I cannot believe anything that comes, Any word that that poor man says after you stick a gun to his head, I can't believe any of it.

I can't believe any of it.

You can't do that.

That's, I mean, I question that individual's character and their integrity.

And again, you can lie, sure.

There's also ways about doing this job where you don't have to lie.

You can give little bits of information that would imply something, but you don't have to flat out lie.

But real quick, one of my problems with any of these confessions or any confession in general is if we have two killers.

Well, have you ever gone to a party and then you come back from the party and your friend says, oh man, you, you almost got into a fight with this guy.

And you go, oh, well, I don't remember it that way.

I mean, it got a little heated for a second, but their story becomes different than your story, right?

So that's first of all.

Also, this notion that people commit crimes,

especially a crime like this one, let's just say hypothetically, this was done by individuals that are more peers of the victim.

These are not psychotic killers that are going around killing people for some demonic entity or some fantasy world that they've made up in their mind.

We know of cases where serial killers remember the victims' names and their height and what they smelled like and where they, and they remember all these details.

This, to me, if it, if it is a killer of their peers,

these people, because it's a traumatic situation, even though it's a traumatic situation that they're causing, they're not going to remember all the details anyways.

So you got the whole, oh, your story is going to be different than mine.

And then I didn't remember everything that happened.

And then you have,

well, after interrogation, if you get these individuals so worked up and then afterwards, you go, hey, let's take a lie detector test.

They're going to do shitty on the lie detector test.

I mean, this is one of the reasons why we don't interview certain individuals right after a crime because they're not in a good emotional state.

So you're not going to get a good reading.

And then you have another

problem

is that in confessions, people will lie to minimize their involvement?

So you have all these things working against you, but on top of that, you have these law enforcement agents that don't have a level head.

They lack character.

And I say lack character because I don't think these guys were interested in getting the truth for these victims.

They were interested in getting a result that they already determined in their mind.

Well, when...

When Jones says maybe I was too close to it, I actually think that the other guys,

some of the other detectives were too close to it because I think that at some point, I do think

that Johnson, and this is why I try not to fault him so much.

I do think that Johnson really thinks that these four guys did it.

And I think that that is

that he's too close to it, that he's got,

he locked into this idea and he's got blinders on.

And remember, the original, when they originally speak with Pierce in Wellbourne in 1991, When they originally speak with Pierce, the best they could get Pierce to agree to is that they drove up near the yogurt shop up by the plaza, and Forrest said he wanted to do something with the gun, and he let Forrest out, and Forrest took the gun, and then he went down to the creek with the skinheads.

That's what Pierce told them.

And then Pierce left.

That vehicle left with Scott and Springsteen in it.

And so that's what they were working originally.

And we talked, and I know I'm kind of going circling back to something we've already discussed, but you know, they wired up Pierce and tried to get him to get forced to say that same stuff on a recording, and that didn't happen.

Forced, it was like, no, I was joking around, man.

You know that.

So with Johnson, though, it's like the fire information's wrong.

Well, okay, well, here's an investigator that says, well, maybe the fire did start on the girls.

It didn't.

Okay.

Well, the gun doesn't match multiple times.

Well,

the bullets are probably too damaged.

No, that's not what other people are saying.

The DNA doesn't match.

Oh, well, it's contaminated.

That's where I have a problem with Johnson.

It's like, dude,

you've had time and time again, science telling you that these aren't the guys, and you refuse to believe it.

You have an answer for that.

And I can understand that's one thing the DocuSeries did great with with the with the DNA.

They should have gone a little more into why it's not contaminated because I think there's still people walking around that believe that it could be contaminated.

Here's the deal.

And I,

you know, we recorded our other episodes years ago, you know, one in 2021 when we did 30 years later.

We went into some of this information here.

And I tell you, I tell you what, if you want to know more about the DNA and the investigation and those parts, we did a great job with that

in our 2021 coverage.

That's goddamn right.

We're giving ourselves a pat on the back.

We did really good with in our first two episodes in 2017,

where we received, and thank you for the emails.

I remember 2017,

we got all these emails and they're like, your guys's theory on on who did it is the best I've ever heard.

We kept pointing to the fact that there were two individuals that were still in the yogurt shop when it was closing time.

Those two people have never been identified.

Those two people have never been talked to by police as far as we know.

So, what happened was in their investigation, they went back and they were able to identify and give names to every person that entered, that walked in and out of the yogurt shop that night, with the exception of these two men.

One thing the the docuseries doesn't talk about is, and here's the other problem.

So

when these, when the DNA doesn't match any of these four guys, well, then you have Johnson go, well, there must have been a fifth guy with them.

You know, he's got two answers for the DNA.

It's either contaminated or there was a fifth guy.

No, no, no, no.

We are looking for two guys.

There was two different types of, there was two different male donors, if you want to, I hate that they call it.

I hate that term.

There were two different rapists let's call them that there were two different rapists there that night in the yogurt shop fuck bags you're looking for two guys so you so you're not looking for your fifth accomplice you would be actually looking for number five and six and i'm here to tell you four people didn't kill these girls two guys did Two guys killed the, that's what the DNA tells us.

And why can I tell you that it's not contaminated?

Because there was other DNA that was found at that same scene that was, they were able to trace who it belonged to and confirm where it came from.

So if that, if that DNA wasn't contaminated, then it stands to reason that the other two wasn't as well.

It was two guys that killed these four girls.

And I'm sorry to say this too, but they didn't kill them for money.

They didn't kill them for money.

I'm sorry.

I wish, I wish it would have been, I wish these people would have been less evil.

I wish what was done to these girls was less cruel.

But I'm convinced that these two guys saw two young girls working behind the counter and thought, you know what?

We're going to stay in here tonight.

We're going to do some terrible shit.

And then, oh, when they started to put things into motion, we didn't realize there were two other girls in the back here.

I think, going off of my old notes here, Captain, I think it was $540 that was in the register.

They didn't do all this evil shit in 44 minutes for $540.

They didn't.

This was absolutely sexually motivated homicide.

100%.

Looking for an intern or an entry-level hire?

The talent you're looking for is on Handshake.

Connect with over 20 million students and recent grads in seconds.

Post your job for free today at joinhandshake.com/slash hire.

The first few weeks of school are in the books.

Now it's time to keep that momentum going.

IXL helps kids stay confident and ahead of the curve.

IXL is an award-winning online learning platform that helps kids truly understand what they're learning, whether they're brushing up on math or diving into social studies.

It covers math, language arts, science, and social studies from pre-K all the way through 12th grade with content that's engaging, personalized, and yes, actually fun.

And in case you didn't know, IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S.

It's the start of school.

This is when you learn if your kid is struggling with a specific topic.

And if so, IXL is the way to catch up.

It's the way to give them a leg up and to keep up.

Or if you want to get ahead, it's great too.

Studying for test, they have features on there that families are finding especially helpful.

I think you're going to like and enjoy, and your kid is going to like and enjoy and learn with IXL.

Make an impact on your child's learning.

Get IXL Now and True Crime Garage listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com slash garage.

Visit ixl.com slash garage to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

When you need eye-catching content fast, use Adobe Express, the quick and easy app to create on-brand content.

Make visually consistent social posts, presentations, videos, and more with brand kits and lockable templates.

Edit, resize, and even translate, all in just a click.

And use Firefly-powered generative AI features to create commercially safe content with confidence.

Start creating with Adobe Express at adobe.com/slash go/slash express.

While you're buying new school supplies and trying to plan a new schedule this season, the last thing you want to factor in is a giant wireless bill.

But with Mint Mobile, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to for way less money.

For a limited time, Mint Mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month.

That's right, $15 a month for really great premium wireless service.

I love Mint Mobile.

Why?

Because it's the same great service that I get with other providers that shall not be named at a fraction of the price.

So great service, save money.

That's Mint Mobile.

Get this new customer offer and your three-month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com/slash TCG.

That's mintmobile.com/slash TCG.

Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month.

Limited time new customer offer for the first three months only.

Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan.

Taxes and fees extra.

See Mint Mobile for details.

All right, we are back.

Cheers, mates.

Thanks for telling your mother.

Thanks for telling your brother.

Tall can't in the air.

Onward and upward.

Heated kernel.

Spicy kernel.

I'm just praying that I can get out of the garage today without before I have a heart attack.

A couple things on this investigation.

I agree with you somewhat.

You go, well, we got this fire.

This expert says it started here, but this expert says it could have started this other place okay go ahead and call one of them not an expert because i already explained why the fire didn't didn't start on the on the victims but go ahead right but you you're also the one that said well i don't think it's a science so if it's not a science then maybe it could have happened differently and we're only getting this other information again from these confessions so it's an investigator trying to make it fit but let's just give him the benefit of the doubt let's say he's not trying to fit the narrative.

You're just investigating it.

I got these confessions.

Some of what they said is true, and some of what they said is not true.

But this fire thing, okay, it kind of there's there's two points of thought, so I just can rule that out.

Moving on to the next one, all this gun, hmm, this gun evidence.

Well, one expert says this, this, the other, this other expert says this other thing.

Okay, just cross it off the list.

But there's more and more investigative work that you have to do.

Once you find that this expert says this evidence is right, a different expert says it's wrong, it's just in the nothing pile.

And if you keep doing that, you get less and less stuff pointing towards these four individuals.

And again, it goes back to the initial interview that you brought up that I think is really important.

You go, well, the initial confession was, well, I gave this guy my gun and he left the car and and we went somewhere else.

I think they just messed so many things up.

And I also think

it's a mistake sometimes to go, hey, we got $100,000.

Come give us your tips because the amount of nonsense tips that you have, unless you have all hands on deck and multiple agencies working this case.

you're not going to have the time or the effort to track down all these quote-unquote leads i i can't get on board with that i mean i know i said that in the amy bradley case but that's that's a whole different scenario you're you're introducing a hundred thousand two hundred thousand dollar reward to a piss poor country sorry uh but that's the situation filled with with the population of that country 95 90 of the people they're poor like that's different than no i understand that but i'm just saying if i was an investigator i would stay away from it i i think we've seen in the yogurt shop murders, I don't know if that helped.

And I don't think some of what they did in the Delphi murders case helped as well because they were getting so many leads coming in from all over the place.

I mean, one of the leads that they show you in the documentary is just some lady sitting there in their office going, Well, my theory is that they set the fires to cover up the crime.

Like, no shit, Sherlock.

And all I'm saying is you run the risk.

Yes, you could have a big payoff.

Somebody could come forward with some more information.

And maybe it would make more sense.

And maybe I could get on board with it in the fact that you think it's more than one individual.

And we have evidence that's more than one individual.

So the probability of them telling somebody else

is more likely, obviously.

But I do think there's just so many freaking mistakes made.

The DNA evidence says it was two people,

that at least two people were there that night.

Yeah, I mean, I think the DNA evidence points to that, and I think the gun evidence points to that.

And then there's other people, you know, there's a theory that has somehow managed to stick around over all of these years and kind of float out there.

And I don't know why it's not been squashed and quashed, but because a 380 was involved, that it was police.

There are people that think that there's some kind of

police involved, that police committed this crime.

That didn't happen anyway.

I mean,

if there were some sexual deviant cops, then maybe that's what happened.

But I really think it was still the two guys that were in there when they closed.

Yeah, but that could be a cop that is not on duty.

No, I get that.

I wouldn't expect it to be a police officer in uniform.

Yeah, but we have cases where law enforcement has picked up.

Oh, no, I'm not.

Again, I'm not saying that it's not a possibility.

I said that I said, if you have a sexual deviant cop, then yeah, absolutely.

But yeah, I mean,

that again,

this is what

aggravates me about the yogurt shop case is that it gets it's easy for it to get very, very complicated.

And that's where everybody gets so far away from what actually happened.

And it's where

this case has been made to be way more complicated than it absolutely needs to be.

And that is why, that in large part is why this case hasn't been solved.

And I firmly believe that.

And I think that, and I don't, it's so difficult.

I get it.

It's so difficult.

But you got to just be able to push this crap aside because that's, at the end of the day, a lot of it is crap.

And you just got to get to the bare bones of what we know happened.

Yeah.

And to that point, I think one of the things the documentary doesn't do well

is

all they're presenting is that there is.

there is a DNA sample from an unknown male and they're they're not saying two men.

Right.

That's why if you want to know a lot more about the actual case, the investigation, what happened at the yogurt shop that night,

a lot of this stuff is not a mystery.

A lot of this stuff is known.

It's been documented and

it is well known to the people that have gone looking for it.

I've gone looking for it.

We covered a lot of it in 2017, covered more in 2021, and we're dipping our toe again here today.

Well, I said online,

and I was telling you this before we started today, was I watched the documentary, then I rewatched part three and part four.

I was telling a bunch of people, if you haven't seen this documentary, it's well worth watching.

I do think it's well worth watching.

But at the time, I was thinking, oh, it's probably a four and a half bottle caps out of five.

But after re-watching the third and fourth and just thinking about they have this platform for hours they could have left un no stone unturned as far as getting out the information to the public and i think the more information you get out to the public the more you're able to possibly get this case solved but they didn't do that and i think they took more of an emotional stance Again, it's not a bad documentary.

I like the way it was produced.

I like that it was a little more raw than what has been coming out like the Amy Bradley case.

But again, goes back to the Amy Bradley

docuseries.

They just leave a bunch of shit out.

You make a whole documentary and you don't explain that there's been a ton of other sightings of Amy not in distress and Amy by herself and Amy not by her captors.

Like, why didn't you want to tell that part of the story?

Why aren't you telling us in this documentary?

Not only do we have one sample of one man, we have another sample of a different man.

Well, and that's the thing.

We've talked about this on off the record plenty of times with when we've had behind the scenes looks at these documentaries or these true crime shows and how they do things.

They are

look.

We may look at it as it's their job and their duty to tell us everything and do a really great investigative piece.

They're like the cops.

They can lie to us.

But the way they look at it is they're creating something that's entertaining and not that they're doing an actual investigative piece.

And that's why, that's why, and I'm not trying to be some nerd or some snob or something when it comes to

these cases, but that's why I've, I often say, like, I don't watch much true crime on TV.

I don't because I've never, very few times have I found it to take me to the next level on a case.

I liked this docuseries because this case is one that I always kind of return to.

The reason why I liked the docuseries was it fired me up and it got me looking at the case again.

Oftentimes, I'll watch a docuseries or if I happen to catch a show on something that a case that we've covered, 95% of the time, man,

it never inspires me to go back and look at the case.

Yeah, but I think you you would agree with this sentiment i think these documentaries are really important if you are if you're unfamiliar with the location i think any armchair detective out there

if you're fascinated with a case if you're trying to solve a case and i know to some people listening out there that's silly oh these armchair detectives think they're going to solve stuff Well, they help out a lot more than I think they're ever going to get credit for.

But I do think it's really important to see, to visually see the crime scenes, to visually see

these different locations.

I mean, you learn a lot about the layout of this location.

Not so much about the inside of the location, because that's been covered a lot, but you learn a lot about the parking lot and behind and the the creek and how it's not that far from the mall.

I mean, you, you do learn a lot about the location.

I think that's why it's important.

But again, it's very frustrating when you, and I'll make this statement.

It's very frustrating to me because when I watch a documentary and you think you've learned so much and then you start diving in, you realize how much they left out.

But most of the time when I read a true crime book, I'm not walking away doing a deep dive and finding a ton of new information unless it's a very old book.

Correct.

Yeah, you usually don't put down the book and go, I wonder what they chose to leave out.

But yeah, so again, thanks for the emails when we covered it in 2017.

But truth be told, that theory, as great as it sounds

and as convincing as it may have been in 2017, it's the one that I still stick to, but that wasn't ours.

We didn't come up with that on our own.

That was actually.

Well, no, it came.

It was one of the defense teams actually came up with that.

And

it was a group of people that worked on that.

And it wasn't just to defend one of the accused.

It was also

an involved, I believe, a magazine or some periodical.

I can't remember which.

I'm sure we probably said it in 2017.

I think that's still the best theory that's out there.

Then, regarding the fifth suspect, right?

Well, it has to be a fifth guy.

Episode True Crime Garage episode 529, The Beatrice Six,

The Beatrice Six.

Listen to that episode because, and I think that was part of mind over murder or something like that.

And you know what?

Here's what I wondered.

I wasn't going to go watch that because, again, read the book on it.

That's another HBO docuseries, and I think they did six episodes.

So here's what I wondered about, Captain.

The yogurt shop is four episodes, four victims, four accused.

Did they just do four episodes because four, four, four?

It kind of fits.

Like the Beatrice Six, six people accused.

They did six episodes.

I think to tell the in HBO's defense, to tell the full story and really examine the yogurt shop murders the way that I think it should be examined would be about eight to ten episodes.

And maybe they just didn't have, just weren't able to dedicate that much to it.

I hope that they didn't pick the four episodes because there's four victims and four accused.

I hope that they didn't pick six episodes for the Beatrice Six because there were six that were just because the number

is already there for them.

Um, because here's the thing: we told the Beatrice Six story in about an hour's time.

We've we're we're probably

what six hours on yogurt shop easily, yeah.

So

here the but back to the beatrice six so in beatrice nebraska 68 year old helen wilson was murdered

and they had dna in her case so what happened was they arrest the wrong person get this person to give a false confession and then years then as time goes by they figure out that the dna doesn't match this person well then the investigator is like Cool, that means they had an accomplice.

So there has to be a second person involved that matches the DNA.

So they arrest another person, get a confession out of them.

That DNA doesn't match them either.

This happens till they get six people.

The DNA matches none of them.

Like, when are you going to stop just pulling in people and tying them and saying, well, what, a whole half a dozen, more than a half a dozen people broke into this home in the middle of the night and did this?

That's what the investigator.

came up with.

That's the best that they could come up with when the DNA didn't match, didn't match, didn't match.

It doesn't match here either.

It doesn't mean there was a fifth guy.

It doesn't mean there was a sixth guy.

It was two people that murdered all four of these victims.

Maybe there was a third one there, but

I would wager Franklin

that it was two people.

Now, I wanted to make sure we included a couple of things before.

Well, I think you could make some argument that

we have two individuals that were in the yogurt shop around the time the yogurt shop was closing.

This is definitive by eyewitnesses yes but then also what is a possibility is that these individuals left through the back

so one could argue

unless they climbed through the ceiling they left through the back door right and so i think somebody could argue well maybe there was a individual in a car that you know once everything started going down that they moved the car around to the back and then they picked him up someone could make that argument What is fascinating though is the fire

should have and could have destroyed all evidence.

The water could have and should have destroyed all evidence, but it's a miracle that it didn't.

And we have two samples.

So that's the minimum, right?

Yeah.

And I, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if the kid, so I think the killers walked in through the front door.

I think they were there when it closed.

And when you have two guys that are there at closing time that have not been identified, have never come forward, the no sale button is pressed at 11.03, like those two things happening in that quick succession and them not being the killers, that's a difficult hurdle to clear.

I agree.

That's a very difficult.

And then 44 minutes later, the place is burning and everybody's dead.

Total chaos.

Total, what did Jones call it?

Wholesale carnage.

44 minutes later, I wouldn't be,

they went in through the front door during the time that the store was open.

They stayed there when it was closed.

They set things into motion, pulled the gun on one of the girls and left the Coca-Cola in the cup on the counter.

That's what set that into motion.

When she turned, I think they ordered a Coke.

One of them said, hey, I'll take a Coke before we leave.

And when she turned around, boom, gun in the face.

And that started everything.

They left out the back door after they set the place on fire.

I wouldn't be shocked if they lived in those apartments that were over there.

I wouldn't be shocked if they arrived on foot,

if there was no car, no driver.

And

if there was a third guy, great.

I mean, maybe you could sell me on that, but I have a hard time believing that the air quotes getaway driver waited outside in a car

for an hour.

No, I'm not saying you.

I just, there's other people that presented this.

I have a hard time thinking that the getaway driver just sat out there patiently for an hour waiting on these guys.

Yeah.

And my gut feeling because of on the movements of these individuals, because we don't have eyewitnesses talking about,

we have eyewitnesses talking about these two individuals that were seen in the yogurt shop.

We don't have these eyewitnesses of

some car

driving away from the scene, you know, erratically.

And because of the age of the victims, it's just my hunch, but I'm saying that this individual is closer to their age as opposed to being in their 30s or 40s.

This is just my hunch.

And the FBI profile will agree with you on that.

The FBI profile.

I did not know that.

And so

here's the thing, real quick before with the books, if you want to know a lot more about what happened that night, what they do know absolutely happened that night at the yogurt shop, you have to read.

Beverly Lowry's book, Who Killed These Girls.

If you want to know more about,

and I apologize to Corey Mitchell for saying this, he's he's a great true crime author, but some of his information in the early part of his book, Murdered Innocents, is just factually wrong.

Like a couple of the, but in his, his book came out about a, more than a decade before Yogurt Shot, before Who Killed These Girls did.

So Beverly Lowry had access to better information.

Yeah, she had the advantage.

Yeah, he reports early in the book that one of the witnesses who spoke at length with law enforcement stated that he overheard one of the girls.

There was a boy that went to the back of the store, and police have always been interested in that young man.

I call him a boy, but he's not a young man.

He goes to the back of the store.

Yes, you should be concerned about him because their theory on how the four guys that they accused of doing it, two that they actually took to trial, was that That boy who went to the back was one of these four guys.

And that what they did was they unlocked the back door so they could go in through the back door as soon as the store closed that makes sense it's it's a could be

but he reports something as the witness overheard one of the the worker girls telling this young man that he tried to order Coke and she says we only have sprite well we know that that's not correct because we know that there was a a coke that was on the counter after the fire was put out so we do know that they had coca-cola so there's there's some details in there that are questionable about what he reports of that night but again he limited information what you want to read murdered innocent by corey mitchell for is he goes way into

very deep into the the mech the two mexican men that were that were arrested and were that that said they were tortured by mexican authorities he goes way nobody else goes that deep into that portion of the story, which was a huge deal at the time because everybody thought that they had solved yogurt shop.

I know that the docuseries doesn't talk much about it, but that was a huge deal in this story.

And that was shortly after the murders.

And again, we talked about this already in our conversation here today: that it wasn't those Mexican guys because their details, even when it was beat out of them, were incorrect.

Yeah, but that's the problem.

If you do things that aren't ethical, putting a gun to the back of a

suspect's head,

beating and trying to beat information out of these individuals, then this person always has a defense.

And so I would love to say, well, these three individuals, they're not responsible.

These

the guys that were

deported back to Mexico, that they're not involved at all.

I can't say that 100%,

but what I can say is I don't have that answer because the situation wasn't handled correctly.

Yeah.

And see, that's, again, this, it's over-complicating this case.

The DNA tells us that the four that were accused didn't do it.

And I know that that's, it's, it's very difficult for people to, and even myself, I circle back on times and go, well, maybe that, then I have to remind myself, no, the DNA says they didn't do it.

And again, so if these four were involved, now you have to have two more people.

You have to have six people that did this.

And six people didn't do this.

Four people didn't do this.

The Mexicans that were arrested and confessed to it didn't do it.

Certain that this DNA information tells us more.

I mean,

sometimes the DNA will tell you, well,

it's a man.

We know the sample is from a male.

And we know that the sample is from a white man.

Do we have information

that we know that comes from the DNA sample other than it's a man?

No, other than it's two men.

Right.

Sorry, I misspoke.

No, that's as far as what's been released to the public.

Now, I can't say that they don't have more than this, but

everything I've examined,

we only know that

it was two men.

We don't know ethnicity.

We don't know their background.

You know, they can do the

snapshot DNA as the lay term for it.

But wanted to to real quick read two things here.

The holdback information, which you can see very quickly that the investigators created a list of 13 pieces of evidence that they were going to hold back.

You can see even in the docu series how quickly a lot of this information leaked out.

But what's interesting about this holdback information, the reason why we know it today is because two of them went to trial.

And so ultimately, some of these smaller details came out eventually.

So all 13 pieces of holdback information are now public.

If you want to review them, it's in Beverly Lowry's book.

And so straight from her book, one, how and where the fire was started was holdback.

So they know, or at least they firmly believe how and where it was started.

Right.

So you don't need to go back to a different expert and get them to say something differently.

This was part of your holdback information from the very beginning, how and where it was started.

Now,

what's interesting to me is

I would hold my hand to God and swear that I know where the fire was started.

How it was is interesting.

Was there some type of accelerant?

If there was, do they know what that accelerant was?

Number two, the key in the front door.

That's how we know that they had already started their closing duties.

They stuck the key in the front door.

How much money was taken?

That was never made public.

I believe that I've dug it up, and I think it was $540.

Number four, how the girls' bodies were arranged.

We now know that that's been public, obviously.

And

that started to leak out very quickly.

What was used to bind the girls, their own clothing?

We know that.

That the office was not entered.

The office was not entered.

That's why I'm telling you, this is a sexually motivated homicide, not robbery-motivated homicide.

If money was their number one concern and they got distracted by rape and torture, murder,

then maybe they just lost their minds and didn't go into the

office.

If robbery was the number one motive, they would have figured, they would have entered that office looking for more money and valuables.

They didn't.

The office was never entered.

That the office key was still underneath the cash register.

So the girls had access to this key to get into the office.

The caliber of weapons, which of course we know is a 22 and a 380.

That two pairs of the victim's underpants were missing.

They never recovered two pairs of underwear from the scene.

They're gone.

That Amy's leather bomber jacket is missing.

Her leather coat, her leather jacket, gone.

One of the killers took it.

Trophy,

Amy was bruised under her chin from a blow of some kind.

So that's where they got Springsteen to say that he hit her.

Right.

12, that Amy was strangled and what she was strangled with.

13, that Amy was shot twice with two different caliber of guns.

That was the original holdback information.

Now, to your credit, my friend, my dear captain, the FBI profile.

Oh, I do want to give a, we got to say something here.

I found this to be incredibly awesome.

So, the FBI agent that was brought in to lead the FBI agents, the mind hunters, if you will, that were brought in to put together this profile, the leader was Judson Ray.

Okay, that, or Judd Ray, some people just call him Judd Ray.

Judson Ray, that name may sound familiar to you because when we covered the forces of evil killer, he was part of that investigation.

And in fact, when we've talked Mind Hunter the series before, the character Jim Barney from series from the second series is based off of Judson Judd Ray, the African-American FBI agent at the Atlanta field office.

So I thought that that was cool that

they didn't just bring in somebody we've never heard of.

They brought in Judson Ray

part of this outfit that put together this profile.

And it reads, more than one person was involved, one of them with a dominant personality.

Keep in mind, they had no DNA when this was put together.

This was put together in 1992.

The assailants are probably white in their late teens to mid-20s.

See?

Were you working for Judson Ray?

Judson was working for me, but I'm learning stuff throughout the years.

The one with the dominant personality, in all probability, did not finish high school.

In school, would have been considered an underachiever with less than average grades, resents discipline, would have been a discipline problem for school officials and parents, has an explosive personality, angers easily, especially when drinking alcohol or using drugs, an impulsive person who acts without considering the consequences, will engage in physical confrontation only when he has the advantage, will not engage in any confrontation with an adult male without friends present,

probably unemployed or working in a menial job, will have a history of changing jobs, is not dependable as an employee with a high degree of absenteeism,

lives in

a dependent relationship with an older person, possibly a parent, frequents the area of the ICBY shop, familiar with the streets and stores in the area, probably a resident of neighborhood.

Wow, I haven't read this in a long time.

And I referenced those apartments earlier.

I think that there's a good chance that that person is in that area, was in that area in late 91, probably has a criminal record, may be abusive to women, may seek out women who are younger and less adequate than himself, has no remorse about killing the victims, but is under tremendous stress from fear of apprehension because crime may not have gone as planned.

Also, very concerned about the loyalty of his accomplices because they may be feeling regret.

Disharmony may be developing between the offenders as stress level rises as well as increased paranoia because of which they may maintain close contact with each other in order to keep a close watch.

In time, this may change into a falling out leading to violence.

Number four, immediately after leaving the crime scene, offenders would have gone to a secure location to clean up or change clothes, although the crime scene does not indicate they would have had a lot of blood on them.

Five, offenders may have returned to the area that night to watch police and fire departments, or they may have left town, may have missed some work days, end of profile.

And of course, that describes thousands and thousands of people.

But, you know, if they were local to the level of being in the neighborhood, they could have easily watched the fire department and the police trying to make heads or tails of that horrible, horrible crimes.

I want to thank everybody so much for joining us here in the garage each and every week.

If you listen on Spotify or Apple Podcast app, please leave a five-star review.

It really helps out the show.

And until next week, be good, be kind, and don't litter.

Welcome back to Listen to Your Heart.

I'm Jerry.

And I'm Jerry's Heart.

Today's topic, Repatha Evaloki Map.

Heart, why'd you pick this one?

Well, Jerry, for people who have had a heart attack, like us, diet and exercise might not be enough to lower the risk of another one.

Okay.

To help know if we're at risk, we should be getting our LDLC, our bad cholesterol, checked and talking to our doctor.

I'm listening.

And if it's still too high, Rapatha can be added to a statin to lower our LDLC and our heart attack risk.

Hmm.

Guess it's time to ask about Repatha.

Do not take Repatha if you're allergic to it.

Serious allergic reactions can occur.

Get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing or swallowing.

Swelling of the face, lips, tongue, throat, or arms.

Common side effects include runny nose, sore throat, common cold symptoms, flu or flu-like symptoms, back pain, high blood sugar, and redness, pain, or bruising at the injection site.

Listen to your heart.

Ask your doctor about Repatha.

Learn more at Rapatha.com or call 1-844-RAPATHA.