Should I take a DNA ancestry test?

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My question is, will the youth save America? What is

cyber crystal? I asked actually two questions.

My question is...

So that's my question.

Hey, Vox, my name is Meredith Hodnott, and I'm calling with a question about ancestry DNA tests. So my question is really about my DNA because it's 75% mystery.

My grandma was adopted and my mom had me on her own and I have no information about the sperm donor at all.

I've never really been interested in finding out about any like potential half-siblings or a dad or something. Like that's really never interested me in the slightest.

But I've always wanted to know if I was Italian or something.

Genetic tests like 23andMe or Ancestry.com or any of these things where you send in your DNA and they give you a breakdown of your like deep family history, it seems to be exactly what they're selling.

And that would be really cool. It's a question I've had for a long time.

But I'm also kind of wary about giving my DNA to a private company. So should I take a DNA test or not?

this is explain it to me it's a show where we answer your questions about everything

i'm brian rusnick and i cover science here at fox

this week our call is actually coming from inside the house it's from unexplainable senior producer meredith hottenot who wants to know what she can learn from her dna and also what she might be giving up in return for that knowledge so today we're gonna find out how tests like 23andMe or Ancestry work.

We'll explain what Meredith might be able to actually get out of her results. And then, once we get all of that, we'll dive into whether these tests have any big trade-offs that we need to consider.

Hey, Meredith. Hello, hello.

How long have you been wondering about this?

I think this has been a question I've had for a really long time.

I was thinking back on it, and like, it was always my icebreaker as a kid. You know, meeting new kids on the playground is like, well, guess what? I don't have a dad.

Like, it was my like fun fact about myself. So I always owned that.
That was never a problem for me. But I do remember in fourth grade, an art teacher asking me what my background was.

And I made up that I was Italian. And then that led to all these questions that I was like, uh, she's like, oh, where in Italy?

And when it's like, the north part, it's a direct, that's a place, right?

I feel like there's sort of a tension there between like, no, I don't want to know specifics. I don't want to have information on a sperm donor that really has no effect on my life.

But the understanding of I don't know where my people came from, even if they're not represented by actual people, is really fascinating to me. Yeah.

Do you think of it now as like a bit of trivia? Like you would like to have that playground answer? Or is it, do you think this would yield some meaningful insight about yourself? Yeah, I mean,

I guess on one hand, sure, it totally is trivia. It's not going to affect my day-to-day life.
I won't magically become part of some culture that I have no real lived experience in. But

my wife and I are thinking about having kids, and those kids will come with genetic ancestral stories. And that's got me thinking about my own.
Yeah.

And do you, are you feeling like icky about maybe doing this? Like, are you feeling like this is a, is a good idea for like either safety or security reasons? Yeah.

I mean, like, I am worried about giving my like DNA information to a company broadly, but then also I've heard all these stories about half siblings coming out of the woodwork and like very chill if that's what you want out of something.

But I like definitely do not want that in the slightest. Yeah.
I feel like

in my head and growing up, like my, my personal narrative has always been that I've just been this clone of my mom. Like we look exactly alike.
People have described us as like walking hugs.

We just have a similar vibe.

And like my whole family too, it's it's very small. I grew up with these four badass independent women and they like decided to have another badass independent woman.

Like my personal narrative has always felt so complete that I just

have no interest whatsoever. In fact, like a very hard adversion to this idea of

changing that narrative in some way. You like the size of your family the way it is so far and you're not looking to let more people in at this right now.
Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

I've always liked my origin story. It makes me feel like a superhero.
So that's kind of interesting.

You're kind of looking for like the far history origin story, but not necessarily like the near history origin story. Totally, totally.

First off here, just to acknowledge that you're definitely not alone in having these questions. There are tons of people who seek out these tests and they all come with.
potentially different reasons.

Some people might be adopted. Some people just might not have family records or their family records could be clouded by complexities of migration or slavery.

There's a lot of ways that family stories get buried or lost over time.

But no matter why you're seeking out this information and really no matter which company you choose to use, the tests here work pretty much the same. So let's start with that.

Let's start with how these tests work and what they can actually accomplish. Okay.
Basically, these tests are sampling your DNA.

So you will, if you do take one of these tests, you're going to spit in a tube.

There's already a strike one against it. I don't do spit.
I'm told it's like a disturbing amount of spit. Like you really need to give them a lot.
Oh, my God.

But you spit in the tube and then this gets sent off for a DNA analysis. And they're not looking at every single letter of your DNA.
That would be overkill. This is like billions, right?

Billions and billions. Yeah, there's something like three billion base pairs of DNA.
And then one thing about DNA between humans is most of ours is exactly the same. Right.

We're all actually remarkably very similar. So what these tests do is they look for places in your DNA that commonly vary from one person to another.

And so they're looking for the, they're called single nucleotide polymorphisms or SNPs, which is, you know, if you think about DNA as a map, it's like points of interest.

It's the points that show our differences from one another. So these SNPs can tell you some things.
So some of these SNPs might be correlated with certain health outcomes.

So sometimes these kind of DNA tests can tell you about a risk for certain cancers like breast cancer, or they can tell you like a certain propensity for,

you know, losing your hair one day.

Or, you know, some of these things you don't need genetic tests for, but actually some of these things you might be interested to know if some of these SNPs are correlated with a higher risk for heart disease.

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense that your DNA could tell you like all sorts of medical information about yourself.

But I'm curious, like when it comes to sort of like ancestral heritage, you know, how Italian am I? Or if I am, you know, who knows? Like, how does, how does that part of these tests work? Yeah, yeah.

Just as there are SNPs that tell you about health, there are SNPs that tell you about who you're related to.

And basically, these companies will compare you to known databases of people where they have their DNA and they have like a known ancestral home.

And what these companies will do is like basically find

who you're closely related to in their databases. And then from there, they kind of make guesses of like, you know, your DNA looks like

people who are from Italy, but but you also have DNA that looks like people from Germany. It's basically connecting you to stories that people are telling about themselves.

So in these databases, people have their stories of, oh, we come from this little town.

And basically by these databases, by these companies like saying that you're somewhat related to that person, it's just, it's just like letting you in on that story.

And I know for some people whose histories have been erased or whose histories are hard to find, this can be really meaningful information.

But I do want to caution caution you here because these companies, they really give you a false sense of accuracy.

So when they say you're 4% Italian or 30% Nigerian, like they're just kind of making a guess about how closely the SNPs in your DNA resemble others in their database.

Yeah, so it's not like there's this conclusive, objective scientific idea of like you are officially Italian. Yeah, yeah.

It actually probably be a little problematic if there was like an official definition of different ethnicities. Right.

But your results that these companies give you can change over time as like these companies like change their algorithms and like get more people in their database.

So for a long while, I think 23andMe was really bad about matching people to specific countries in Africa, just because they just didn't have the databases of what those DNA profiles look like from people in Africa.

But actually what wouldn't be squishy from these things is like actually finding real relatives.

I think it's pretty much undeniable if you, if you get matched with someone who seems like a sibling or a parent or a first cousin.

And I think this is kind of an interesting maybe thing about your question here because this thing that you don't want is actually the thing that the that these tests can give you most clearly.

That is if other family members have also signed up for these things. Yeah.
I mean, like I could I could definitely see why that would be super appealing to some folks. It's just not appealing to me.

Yeah, so that would definitely be a downside for you. And there are other downsides here that maybe everyone who might use one of these services might want to think about.
What other downsides?

Wait, just

hold on a second, Meredith. I'm really sorry about this.
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We've been trying to reach you concerning concerning your car's extended.

Thanks so much for holding. Meredith, I'm sorry.
No problem.

Let's get back to your question. Excellent.
We've got another expert here on the line. Jen, can you introduce yourself to Meredith?

So I am Dr. Jen King.

I am a privacy expert.

I've been researching privacy issues with information for the better part of 15 years and I'm currently the Privacy and Data Policy Fellow at the Stanford Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence.

Thanks for coming on to help me answer my question. Sure.

So I actually wrote part of my dissertation, which was not that long ago, on genetic testing services, which is why I know kind of more about this topic than maybe just kind of the casual privacy expert.

And so first I just want to say that I'm very empathetic with where you're coming from.

When you have all these unanswered questions and there is something dangling in front of you that promises to potentially answer some of them, it's like, of course you want to do that.

It's reasonable.

And when we try to think through like whether to take these tests or not, some people can be very dismissive and just say, oh, no, no, no, why would you ever do that?

It's such, you know, it's a potential risk. But I think that the kind of human issues involved, the family issues, are really not to be ignored because they are important.

And so there's a difference from someone who's trying to answer these questions than I think to some extent how these tests are often sold, which is recreation. Like,

you can find out if you sneeze when you look at bright light.

Know that already from just looking at bright light. Jen, what is your overall take on

is this information worth it? Right. That is the million dollar question.
But I mean, I think Brian is right in that

if you look at the ethnic ancestry part of it, you're probably not going to get a big lightning bolt answer.

But if you're pretty sure you're of, you know, northern or eastern European ancestry, it's like, well, you're probably just mostly going to find like, that's what you are.

And whether you're 20% Italian versus 40% Italian, it's like, how much is that going to end up like changing your whole like perception of yourself?

I've had the most experience with 23andMe. And I know on that platform in particular, that if you wanted to look for relatives that share your DNA, you would have to opt into that.

I presume that is mostly the case on other platforms as well, but I would always be very careful if that's a concern of yours at all before agreeing to use one of those services to make sure you understand that depending on the service, you may automatically be opting in to share.

And there's been so many documented stories of, yes, people finding people they did not know they were related to, uncovering, you know, half siblings they didn't know existed.

A lot of times those have been positive stories. But, you know, if you're worried at all about kind of the emotional impact of that, then that's a reason not to dip your toe into that pool.
Right.

Yeah. But if you do end up in the deep end,

aren't there other sorts of privacy issues to deal with? That's a complicated question of what 283andMe or any of these companies are doing with your DNA.

Part of the uncertainty with doing this is that we don't have any, you know, we have very, very narrow legal protections.

And so the things that concern me are: if you do it and you contribute your data to one of these services and then they go out of business, what happens to that? It's a lot of very personal data.

It's unique. It's uniquely identifiable.

If you're not assuming you're going to have any biological children, then I think it's a little bit less of a risk kind of personally, because if you're a parent, you know, you are potentially exposing your children.

The challenge here is so much of this is forward-looking.

Like, yes, it's not happening today, but it's just really hard to think through, okay, what is, what happened to that DNA sample I gave up 15 years ago that's actually still floating around in a database somewhere.

Like, where did it end up? Are there kind of non-commercial ways to get some of this data? Like, are there certain medical practices or

something that feels a little less like we're just buying this information from a company that might do something weird with it later?

I think that if you are taking one of these tests because you are curious about a medical condition, then absolutely there are much more traditional, you know, medical-focused services that may require a doctor to

write the

request. And certainly, if your doctor makes a request, then I believe it's going to be covered by HIPAA.
It's within that kind of traditional healthcare realm.

And so, if you're really worried that you have the breast cancer gene and you want to keep that private, certainly I would recommend that.

If you were not interested in anything else, then I would go through the more traditional kind of medical system way of doing this.

And then it seems like there's just much more robust privacy protections in place around medical information. Or at least any.

You know, just a little bit. There is a law in California, for example.
And, you know, there has been efforts to kind of put together best practices.

And so, you know, I think the major providers are fairly serious about this stuff. But, you know, there's always just this element of like, you can't control everything.

And so, I mean, the biggest immediate one to me is like if some of them go out of business or get acquired by a company that you just wouldn't expect, you just might see your DNA being used in ways that you just weren't fundamentally okay with.

One of the newest changes that's occurred in the last couple years is the fact that law enforcement has taken a great interest in these databases.

And again, some people are completely fine with that because they think it's kind of helping solve the social problem of finding criminals who have been able to escape being identified.

And other people are not okay with their data being kind of indiscriminately used in law enforcement searches.

23andMe touts their kind of medical research part, but there's also kind of commercial research part too.

And so like, I I know in the past, I don't know if this is currently true, Procter and Gamble has been,

if not one of their funders, has, you know, at least a research agreement with them. And it's like, okay, what's what are they doing with Procter Gamble?

Like, is my DNA being used to make the new generation of deodorants? Like

maybe you don't care, but it's like, you'll never be compensated for that. In fact, you're paying them.

Right, exactly. Paying for the privilege to be, have my DNA experimented on.
Exactly.

Could you imagine a better future here, or do you think this is always going to be a very fraught area of commercial DNA testing?

I think

there's possibly a way, right? And I think it's who controls the data. If you could use a kind of different

approach where you stayed in control of the actual sequence data and you basically kind of licensed it to other companies rather than having it sit with them so that at the end of the day, it remained in your control.

I mean, I think that's a better way.

We do see authoritarian regimes around the world who are very interested in this data and who are using it actively right now to control certain ethnic populations. And so this is not science fiction.

Like this is actually happening today. China has been oppressing their Uyghur population.

And one of the ways that they've been doing that has been through the identification of Uyghurs through their DNA. And so

being able to use that as a tool of kind of social control is terrifying.

I mean, you can imagine all sorts of populations around the world potentially being singled out because they have that genetic marker.

How do they get their DNA and then how do they monitor them with it? Well, I don't think you're given a choice. You're forced to give it.

The collection of DNA in any kind of context where you've been arrested is a big concern because, I mean, we just had this issue here in San Francisco where primarily women were agreeing to have rape kits collected collected after a sexual assault, their DNA was being included in the database with their attacker's DNA.

And so you had this kind of taking of your personal DNA without your permission.

And the reason this became an issue was that one of the women who had given up their DNA for this rape kit was then identified at a potential crime scene several years later because she was in the database, even though she shouldn't have been in the database to begin with.

Yeah.

So those are scenarios where you don't have a choice, but Meredith here does have a choice. Absolutely has a choice.
Yeah.

And so Meredith, like hearing this, how are you? How are you feeling about these tests and your original question?

Yeah. I mean, I feel like

I was already a little wary. And if anything, now I'm more wary.
I'm sorry. Oh, no, no, no, no.
I mean, I feel like the downsides just seem so huge and unpredictable.

Whereas the upside is like, oh, do I I get to like claim part of an ancestry that I actually don't have a cultural background in? Like, if that's the only upside here,

it just really doesn't seem like on equal footing to the potential downsides. You know, those are definitely real downsides, but do you still see any upsides here that

you still would feel a little like remiss if you never learned? Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't think so.

But I could see that being really different for somebody else. Like, maybe this information could be super meaningful and would make a big difference in somebody's life.

And they would have to make a very different calculation.

But for me, like, the story of my mom and her generation and the generation above that, like,

that's enough for me.

And I feel super fortunate that that's my family. Yeah.

Maybe one last wrinkle on this is something like, so you've been talking about this in terms of not wanting to look for someone, but what if someone was looking for you?

Yeah. I mean, I feel like that honestly feels like the

Pandora's box, the thing I couldn't take back. Is like, if I am in one of these databases, even if I'm not

connecting those dots, my dot is out there to be connected. And like that, that feels like

a little worrying to me, definitely.

Would I want to be found?

No,

I

just just really don't want that. And I don't know if that would like be because

it would change that superhero clone origin story that I like to tell about myself. Like the facts wouldn't have changed.
It'd just be

very different, you know, and I feel like in some ways

less connected to the choices and

wishes my mom had to bring me into the world by herself. I find that really powerful and empowering.
And obviously, there are genetics in there that help make that story possible.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be a part of my story.

Well, I was just going to say, like a lot of technology, just because suddenly we can do these things doesn't always mean we should do these things. Totally.

Well, I think the final line is to Meredith. So, did we answer your question? And what are you going to do? Absolutely.
Thank you both for your time.

I feel much more grounded in the knowledge to make the decision that I probably won't send in a gross amount of spit

through the mail to a private company. But it has made me really think about, like, as I move forward with my own family, like

what part of genes and DNA and ancestry are going to be a part of the narrative that I pass on on to future generations.

We can still

make pasta

old world

Italian grandmothers.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Bring me into your Long Island home, Brian.

Thanks for listening to the first episode of Explain It to Me. We want to hear from you.
What did you think? Send us an email at unexplainable at vox.com or leave us a message at 202-688-5944.

This episode of Explain It To Me was produced by Jillian Weinberger.

It was edited by Catherine Wells with help from Meredith Hodenot, Brian Resnick, Bird Pinkerton, Manding Wynn, and me, Noam Hasenfeld.

Sound design and mixing from Christian Ayala, scoring from Christian and me, and fact-checking from Richard Seema.

Unexplainable is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and we'll be back next Wednesday.

Support for this show comes from S. Steve Johnson.
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