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So, Noam.

Hello, Mara.

Hello.

I had some friends visiting this weekend, and they brought their little three-year-old Jay, who is just

so cute.

Like, so cute.

Yay, it's done.

It's done.

And I was reading The Lorax by Dr.

Seuss.

2J?

2J.

Or just like for fun.

Well, I also do that, but 2J, and he was so into it.

It speaks for trees.

Like I was doing the voices.

It's just like when you have a kid's attention like that, it's like you're casting a spell.

He lifts himself up from the pants of his seat.

Pants.

Yeah, I mean, I honestly don't remember all that much about the Lorax.

I remember it's environmentalist.

There's some trees.

Yeah.

It starts off in this like smog-covered industrial wasteland and then you like walk up to this old ruin of a house and have to pay the onesler to hear his story of this place.

The Wuenzler.

And this this Wuntsler, you only ever see his arms in the illustrations and he slumps down a whispermophone.

So it's this like very personal story for your ears alone.

His story of like coming to this beautiful land of technicolored trees and humming fish and swans and ultimately, how the business he starts goes on to clear-cut the forest, gum up the ponds, and smog smear the sky, basically making the industrial wasteland that you like walk through in the beginning.

And I mean, this is the same, like the same physical book, Dr.

Seuss book, Six by Seuss, that my mom read to me as a kid.

Oh, I had that exact book.

Love it.

A classic.

And it's just like one of those kinds of stories that stick with you for a long time.

Last year I did this story, Did Trees Kill the World?

And it's all about imagining this fantastical time with crazy trees in the deep, deep past.

And I used the Lorax to help me structure the introduction to that story.

What do you mean it helped you structure it?

Like if I take out all the narration from the top of that episode and replace it with the Lorax, it still works.

Right.

Just just take you out and put Dr.

Seuss in?

Yeah, we'll find out.

I'm going to read you a little, Dr.

Seuss.

All right, I'll buckle in.

At the far end of town where the grickle grass grows and the wind smells sour and slow when it blows and no birds ever sing except old crows is the street of the lifted Lorax.

Into the woods we go.

And deep in the grickle grass, some people say, if you look deep enough, you can still see today where the Lorax once stood just as long as it could before somebody lifted the Lorax away.

It's definitely nothing living inside that area.

A lot of gravel.

Some birds, too.

What was the Lorax and why was it here and why was it lifted and taken somewhere?

From the far end of town where the Grickleglass grows, the old Wunstler lives here.

Ask him.

He knows.

Just thinking about time.

Like geologists think about time in millions of years, hundreds of millions of years.

That is where a tree stood 385 million years ago.

That is unbelievable.

So this was one tree.

Are we saying that this is literally two tree?

Like

the star formations are like the bases of these two trees.

Yeah, the impressions of the roots.

Now I'll tell you, he says, with his teeth sounding gray, how the Lorax got lifted and taken away.

It all started way back, such a long, long time back.

Such an awesome, awesome, awesome thing to imagine a forest from that long ago.

And that's how the story of the Lorax starts.

Did you start the trees episode with like that with that same line?

At the far end of town or something like that?

Yeah, exactly.

I wanted to imagine...

our world and the places that we're standing as completely different in different times.

Like, I don't think it would be as impactful if you didn't see where you are in the current day to understand how much has changed since the past.

It felt like that was an important part of the story to tell.

Getting to that space, understanding what it is now, and then being transported back such a long, long way back.

I mean, I guess I'm curious.

There's a lot of stories that go back in time, right?

That use the back in time.

Exactly, emphasize how something big, how big something is, or how important it was.

Like, was there something about the Lorax that made you want to use it for this story?

Yeah.

I mean, you know, the scientists that I talk to, it's their job to look at these rocks and peer back into the past and be able to recreate the image of these Sussian worlds.

There were like broccoli-topped trees and like trees that looked like fuzzy telephone poles.

Like it's just as bizarre as truffle trees.

Right, right.

I knew I wanted to be in a place place where we were hearing this as

a folktale almost.

Interesting.

And it's got me really thinking about what are the stories that we use as a framework in order to shape our ideas of the world.

I didn't reference the Lorax at all in the trees episode, but it was like thinking about it was what helped me get to the point of writing it.

I see.

What do you, was there any like stories that you draw inspiration from that you heard as a kid?

Yeah, I think I think the story that comes to mind for me is

one of my favorite stories from the Talmud.

And this is a kid's book?

It is definitely not a kid's book.

This is

a book of laws and debates.

But my dad used to tell me stories from the Talmud.

Basically, a bunch of rabbis are having this very, very esoteric argument.

And I think you can imagine them in some type of

schoolhouse building or something.

I always like to imagine this kind of like dimly lit, you know, wooden taverny place and everyone's banging on tables.

And there's this one rabbi, Rabbi Eliezer.

Rabbi Eliezer is basically against everyone.

So he's known as like the smartest rabbi around.

He's kind of like prickly, but really, really, really smart, very well respected.

And so basically the entire court of rabbis is against him.

And they're arguing, they're making their case, blah, blah, blah.

And eventually, like, it's just getting to the point where he's not making any progress, but he's so convinced of himself that he does something weird.

He

gets up and he says, if I'm right, this tree is going to prove me right.

And then a tree uproots itself and flies into the air.

But the other rabbis, they say, you don't prove things with a tree.

So then he says, if I'm right, the river is going to prove me right.

And then this river flows backwards all of a sudden.

And the rabbis say, you don't prove things with the river.

Then I think, then he says, if I'm right, the walls are going to prove me right.

Like the walls are the room.

And then the walls start caving in.

But then I think the Talmud says something like out of respect for this other rabbi.

So they just kind of don't cave in all the way.

They sort of

stayed there halfway.

And finally, Rabbi Eliezer, says, if I'm right, heaven is going to prove me right.

And the word in Hebrew for heaven is the same as sky.

It's shamaim.

And

then a divine voice comes out from the sky.

And it says, basically, like, guys, what are you doing?

You know, Rabbi Eleazar is always right.

Like, why are you arguing against him?

And at that point, one of the senior rabbis, he gets so frustrated by all this.

He gets up and he just goes, it is is not in heaven or, you know, it is not in the sky.

So basically the Talmud then says, okay, what's going on here?

And it says,

look,

God

gave us the laws.

And at this point, you know, he's not going to come down and give us any more revelation.

It's not up to a voice from the sky to just to tell us what the law is.

It's the people that come together.

Basically, the Talmud agrees with the rabbis.

You don't prove things with a voice.

You don't prove things with a tree.

Yeah.

Sounds like this guy had a lot of magic tricks up his sleeve.

Oh, you don't even know the half of it.

There are so many other stories of this guy.

Like,

I mean, later on, he gets excommunicated over this, and he starts, he's just so upset.

He starts shooting lasers out of his eyes.

Oh, yeah.

Or I don't know.

The Talmud doesn't say lasers, but it does say he was burning everything he can see.

I mean, I've been there.

He, okay, there's some, there's a point when someone cuts him in line at a bathroom.

I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure.

And a dragon comes out from the toilet and like eats the guy's insides.

Wow.

So petty, right?

Like petty.

Smart and petty.

Wait, actually, I'm looking it up and I think that was actually a different rabbi.

This is like normal gossip for Talmud.

Right.

And then there's a little epilogue where it says like years later, this other rabbi is just walking around and he runs into the prophet Elijah.

And everyone knows that Elijah is kind of hanging out with God sometimes in heaven, like he's doing his thing.

And so he's like, I got one question for you, Elijah.

I need to know what God was thinking, you know, when he heard the rabbi say it's not in heaven.

Like, was he offended with what was going on?

And Elijah tells this rabbi that God was smiling or laughing.

It's not clear about the translation.

And he says, My children have defeated me.

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Talk to my phone.

Well, take me back to when you first, when you first heard this.

Oh,

this is probably a bedtime story from my dad.

The thing with my dad is that he says the same story hundreds of times, going on long walks and having someone make a point and then him being like, oh, this reminds me of the story of the Talmud.

It is not in heaven.

You know, tell the whole story.

I also remember learning this at school.

I remember learning this when I was in seminary in Jerusalem.

Like, you, I don't know, this is a story that a lot of people learn over and over and over again.

Is there a usual moral to the story?

I don't know.

Like any old Jewish story, I feel like there's a bunch of ways to read this.

And I think there's a sense in which you can read this story that in the end, the rabbis basically saying, we are an interpretive collective.

We interpret things together.

That's how we decide on meaning.

So this story is like something that I think about probably more than any other story.

You know, you put yourself into the the position of each one of the rabbis in this story or God,

and you can see from their perspective, like, I've been the person who's been frustratingly clinging to an idea, and I've been the person who is trying to get that frustrating person to stop clinging to the idea.

And so

I come back to this story a lot because I feel like this story just has this deep streak of humility in it.

So how has this story inspired some of your work on the show?

So

a couple of weeks ago, I made this episode on dark energy about the discovery of dark energy, about this kind of potential rethinking of dark energy.

And the scientist I talked to, Adam Rees, he told me about when he first discovered dark energy back in the 90s, he thought he'd made a mistake.

You know, my first thought was disappointment.

Oh, here I was hoping to learn something about the universe and I just learned I have a bug in my code.

Adam observes the universe expanding really fast.

It doesn't fit.

He really doubted himself and the two options are either rewrite everything we know about physics or introduce this new substance we don't understand, dark energy.

There certainly were people who said, you know, this has just got to be wrong.

And then he told me how after months and months, he finally started to believe in what he was seeing.

You know, he said,

here's a quote from him.

He says, you reach a point where you have to believe that the sky wants to tell us something.

Wow.

This is not a mistake.

This is what the sky says.

And there was something about the description of just the sky

saying something

to us.

Yeah.

He literally, he said this five or six times in different ways, listening to the sky.

This guy says something.

This guy wants us to know something.

When he said that, I just couldn't stop thinking about this story with the two rabbis.

There's a sense in which science is sort of a similar thing.

Like there is a cosmos out there.

We have to understand what it does.

But at a certain point, we have to come together.

We have to tell a story that we all agree on that makes sense with everything we know.

I mean, I would say if these experiments are right, then all bets are off in terms of the future of the universe.

There's not a simple story at the moment.

And so we're wandering in the wilderness trying to understand what it means.

We think science is this relationship between us and the cosmos, which obviously, yes, it is.

But there is a sense in which science is a relationship between ourselves and deciding on the best, clearest way to tell a story about the cosmos.

You said your dad would bring up this Talmud story all the time.

Like, this reminds me of a story.

What kinds of situations would trigger that?

It's a good question.

Because this story has been told to me so many times over and over and over again, I actually don't think I have a single memory of this story.

If I think about this as thinking about this as a kid,

I think this often came up around questions of belief.

You know, like,

is God real?

Are my questions about God okay?

when I've had a lot of these questions I've always come back to this story

because it allows you to just put those questions to the side for a second because we make meaning here

and it just makes me feel it just makes me feel more okay

it just makes me feel more okay with

the bigness and absurdity of everything yeah

like

max five percent of the entire universe is everything that we can see and understand, right?

Matter, gas.

Stuff.

The stuff in the universe is only 5%.

Then you got 25% that's dark matter.

So that's stuff that reacts with gravity, but we can't see it at all and we don't really understand it.

We've never found it.

And then 70%.

So just the vast majority of everything is stuff that we understand even less.

We don't have words for it.

We call it dark energy, but it's not,

we just don't understand it.

But

I mean, we don't understand anything.

Like,

we don't even understand the 5% of the stuff that we can see.

Right.

So, I guess for me, no matter what is out there,

we can find meaning in interpretation.

We can make our lives meaningful ourselves.

That's really powerful.

This is like, I'm just giving you like my

Shabbat speech here.

I love it.

I love it.

It's Friday night.

The candles are lit.

Yeah.

It's a weird ass experience for me.

Stun.

This episode was produced by me, Meredith Hodnott.

I also run the show.

We had editing from Jorge Just, mixing and sound design from Christian Ayala, music from Noam Hasenfeld, and fact-checking from Melissa Hirsch.

Julia Longoria is our editorial director, and Bird Pinkerton waited as Aaron Bird motioned to his lackey, who slowly wheeled out a wooden carriage covered with a curtain.

In a flourish, he yanked the cover off and Bird could see inside, a large wooden cage.

And huddling in the far corner, shrunken and shriveling, was the doctopus.

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