How to change your personality

Support for Unexplainable comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude.

You know those questions that keep you up at night?

The ones that make you fall down rabbit holes until 2 a.m.

Claude is an AI that can help you if you want to dive deeper.

Instead of rushing to surface-level answers, you can use Claude to help work through the complexity.

You can upload documents, you can search the web, and you can explore different angles on problems that genuinely interest you.

You can try Claude for free at claude.ai/slash unexplainable.

Support for the show comes from Charles Schwab.

At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs.

That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices.

You can invest and trade on your own.

Plus, get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs.

With award-winning service, low costs, and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab.

Visit schwab.com to learn more.

Before we start the show, I want to tell you about a new way to listen to Unexplainable by becoming a Vox member.

You'll get access to a new feed where you can listen ad-free, just a steady stream of science mysteries with no breaks.

You'll also be able to read every article on Vox.com.

You get access to a member exclusive newsletter.

and you'll get a whole bunch of other perks.

More importantly, though, you'll be supporting Unexplainable.

Making Making this show, diving into these unanswered questions, it takes a lot of time and effort and drafts.

So many drafts.

And every new Vox member gives us a stable base of support that allows us to make even more ambitious episodes and long-term series.

We truly can't make this show without you.

And right now, Vox is offering 30% off an annual membership.

All you have to do is go to Vox.com/slash members to join.

Thanks.

It's Noam Hasenfeld.

I'm Unexplainable.

I remember my first day in college when I realized I could be anyone I wanted to be.

Like no one had any idea who I was.

And I thought, what if I was suddenly this chill, easygoing, totally not neurotic guy?

So I tried.

And within a couple days, I had fully forgotten the entire plan.

I was the same person I'd always been.

But that doesn't mean changing who you are.

Changing your personality is impossible.

Today on the show, a conversation that first aired on another Vox podcast, The Gray Area.

It's an interview that made me think differently about who I am and who it's possible to be.

Here's The Gray Area with host John Illing.

Today's guest is Olga Hazan.

She's a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of the book, Me But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change.

The book is a joy to read, full of ideas, but also personal in the sense that Olga documents her year-long effort to change things she doesn't like about her own personality.

Along the way, she does a nice job of weaving in the science and marking the limits of what we know and don't know.

It's honest, curious, and reflective.

And so, it turns out, is Olga.

So I invited her on the show.

Olga Hazan, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me.

Let's start with the basics here.

Because personality is one of those words that, or one of those concepts that we all intuitively understand.

what it signifies, at least loosely.

But it is pretty tricky to define.

You've now written a book on it.

So give me your neatest, clearest definition.

Yeah, personality is the consistent thoughts and behaviors that you have every day.

And some researchers think that in addition to just having those thoughts and feelings and behaviors, they also help you achieve your goals.

So

depending on what your goals are, your personality kind of helps you get there.

An example of this would be the personality trait of agreeableness, agreeableness,

which helps you make friends and social connections.

So people who tend to be more agreeable also tend to value friendships and connections and achieve more of those.

You use the word consistent there.

To what extent is personality

just a performance?

And to what extent is it something much more concrete?

Personality is in some ways a performance.

Let's say you describe yourself as an introvert, but you have to give a big talk and it's very important to your career that this talk go well, right?

You are probably going to perform to a certain extent extroversion.

Or let's say you're going into a room full of investors and you have to raise money for your startup, but you're just a very introverted coder guy who just wants to.

code all day and not talk to anyone.

You're going to perform extroversion in that situation too, because it's very important for you to get whatever is at the end of that performance, the money or the, you know, professional accolades or whatever comes with it.

You know, it doesn't have to be financial.

It could be, you know, going on a first date is kind of a performance as well.

So we do all perform elements of these traits every single day.

But what most researchers think is that there is sort of a...

tendency that we all have toward a certain pattern of behaviors and thoughts that

are more or less consistent, especially if we don't try to change them in any meaningful way.

But like you kind of get up and you have like these like little patterns that you fall into.

And that's sort of like your quote-unquote natural personality.

So we have what people call

the big five personality traits, neuroticism, extroversion, agreeableness, which you just mentioned, openness to experience, and conscientiousness.

Are these categories generally accepted in the field of psychology?

And how useful do you find them?

They are generally accepted.

That's now like, if you read a personality study, it will be most likely based on the big five.

So things like Ania Graham and Myers-Briggs are not generally accepted.

That said, they are imperfect.

There are some cultures that have traits that are very important in those cultures that the big five doesn't really pick up as much.

Meanwhile, things like openness,

it's sort of a catch-all.

Like it doesn't really,

it doesn't really map very cleanly onto someone's personality as other people would observe it.

So, yeah, it is valid.

It has weaknesses, but

personality is so hard to measure and kind of scientifically get your head around that it's sort of the best that we have right now.

Well, part of the inspiration for this project is that

you wanted to change some things about

yourself.

So what did you want to change?

And why don't you love yourself, Olga?

Don't you know you're good enough and smart enough and people like you?

Why do you want to change?

Yeah.

So I did want to change and I also love myself.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Though I know that it can, it can feel that way, that like if you admit that you want to change,

that it can feel like you're saying that you don't love yourself.

But I think that's where like the idea of personality traits as tools to help you achieve your goals can be really helpful.

Because we all have goals we want to achieve, even if we all like our lives and ourselves.

And for me, what I realized is that things were going well.

I had a pretty nice life.

You know, nothing was seriously wrong.

But my reactions to situations were not benefiting me.

They were kind of undermining me and making me not able to enjoy my life.

So I start the book out with this like, actually great sounding now as a new parent of this great sounding day in Miami, where honestly all that happened is that I got a bad haircut, then immediately had to get professional photos taken, then got stuck in traffic, and then had this like a weird debacle with a grocery store shopping cart.

And it honestly just like, because of my high neuroticism at the time, the accumulation of all of those like small things made me have like this epic meltdown when I got back to my hotel.

And I realized that that kind of happened a lot in various ways.

Like small things would happen that would make me kind of not able to appreciate the big picture and not able to just be happy with what I have or be grateful.

And so that's really what I wanted to work on is sort of appreciating my life for what it was.

And also just, you know, outside of neuroticism, I really like, I was feeling the COVID social isolation.

And I wanted to deepen my social connections as well.

So that's why I wanted to change.

Would you say that you had or have a tendency to catastrophize?

Because I do.

And I don't know if that's a function of neuroticism or something else, but I would say that is the one thing that I'm trying most aggressively to stop.

Is that tendency part of neuroticism or is it a little more complicated?

than that.

Yeah, it's definitely part of neuroticism.

You know, neuroticism is sort of the the trait that's so to kind of simplify it, it's associated with depression and anxiety.

And basically all those are, are just like a feeling of threat.

Like you just constantly see threats everywhere.

You, the reason you're catastrophizing is not because like you're silly or because you're not realistic, but because like you kind of can see the threats coming from every direction and you're like, how do I prevent those from happening?

And that's what makes people who are high in neuroticism so so miserable.

Well, I like the,

I think it was Judd Brewer

argument that you talk about in the book that

anxiety is a habit loop where anxiety triggers the behavior of worry,

which feels like it's a temporary relief, but really it just makes us more anxious in the long run.

And this is something, this is something neurotic people do by default, right?

I mean, it's just the, it's just the first instinct.

Oh, yeah.

I always thought anxiety and worry were the same thing.

Um, but worry is actually, it's a behavior.

It's almost like a self-soothing behavior.

And people who are very anxious think that if you just worry enough, you won't be anxious anymore.

But instead, worry kind of sometimes can make you more anxious.

Like you're never going to get to the end of the worrying.

Well, it's also about the discomfort with uncertainty, right?

And you talk about like the neurotic person is the one who

gets the, you know, have a second, do you have a second slack from your boss and freaks out?

You know, I'm the type, if I get the, do you have a second out of nowhere from the boss, you know, I'm, I'm filing for food stamps

before lunch.

You know what I mean?

It's just my mind just goes there.

Okay, this is becoming too much about me already.

It's okay.

Yeah.

I'm right there with you.

But uncertainty is wrapped up with this, right?

It's just, it's, it's a, it's an uneasiness about

what the future might hold and our ability to control or not control.

And so you just, you're just anxious about

the world.

And

I mean, I'm sure there's evolutionary utility in that, but, but boy, past a certain point, it just becomes

pathological, really.

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a huge part of it is like, is, is, um, you know, neuroticism is all intertwined with a feeling of wanting control, of really fearing uncertainty.

You know, in the, in the modern world, it's all about learning how to live with uncertainty and accept that there is uncertainty in the world, you know, without letting it rule you, basically, this fear of uncertainty.

What about agreeableness?

Agreeableness sounds pretty agreeable.

I mean, who nobody wants to be called disagreeable, I don't think.

But is agreeableness more complicated than that?

I mean, how much agreeableness is too much?

When do we need to be a little disagreeable?

Yeah, agreeableness was one of the ones that I was working on.

And it's basically like warmth and empathy toward others and also trust.

And that element of agreeableness can be really good and it can deepen your relationships and give you more fulfilling friendships.

Where some people say that like they're actually too agreeable and they want to pair back is when they feel like they're being people pleasers and they feel like people kind of walk all over them or like they don't know how to say no.

So part of agreeableness is like learning how to communicate boundaries, how to like make friends, but also not just by saying yes to everything that your friends ask of you.

Um, and to still, you know, to still have your own boundaries and your own things that you're you're willing and not willing to do.

So, for your year-long personality transformation project, you did focus on all five of these traits to varying degrees.

Which did you find was the hardest to tweak in any direction?

So, neuroticism was the hardest by far for me.

Um,

It is like because

the way to improve on neuroticism is meditation or like any kind of mindfulness practice.

You know, it can be like yoga, not core power, like slow contemplative yoga.

You know, it can be different different forms of mindfulness, but it's basically mindfulness.

And I found that really challenging.

Like I am not a natural meditator.

I kind of have a loop of like ongoing concerns and worries and to-do list when I'm not, you know, thinking about anything.

You know, I don't like it when people are too relaxed.

I find that irritating.

I just like, you know, I think it was, it was like a little bit hard for me to let go of my anxiety because on some level, I think, and I still sometimes kind of think this, I think that like anxiety

is protective, at least for me.

Like it like forces me to do things and it helps me.

Like it like is like the fire under me.

And I think at times I was a little bit like, oh, sure, this is fine for like people who don't have a lot going on, but like I need my anxiety.

How long did you try meditating?

I mean, did you ultimately find it to be helpful?

Did you, did you score less neurotic at the end of that practice?

I think I like did meditation really, really seriously for about six months of this.

And

it did work in the sense that my neuroticism went down.

But when I said that neuroticism is depression and anxiety, it was actually mostly my depression score that went down.

So I became less depressed.

And my anxiety also went down, but it was still like quite high.

It was not as high as it had been, but it didn't go away completely.

But I think one reason why I became less depressed is that the class that I took, which was called MBSR, it was the meditation class that I took, had a lot of like Buddhist teachings that were part of it.

So one of the things that my meditation teacher said was

things happen that we don't like.

And for me, even though obviously things happen that we don't like,

I realized that I was someone who, when things would go wrong, I would start to blame myself very intensely.

And I would have this like very intense self-blame that would be very hard to break out of, even if it was something that was like clearly not my fault.

It was, you know, like an act of God or like really awful traffic or like, you know, just, just something that, that had nothing to do with me.

You know, I would start to be like, well, I should have left earlier.

I should have, blah, blah, blah.

I should have predicted this.

And I think just this reminder that things happen that we don't like and that everyone has things that happen in their life that they would rather not happen.

And like we all have to deal with that.

I don't know.

That was like weirdly very helpful to me.

What is the scientifically best personality?

And look, there is a part of my philosophical soul that shudders even at asking this question because I don't think science can make these kind of value judgments.

But what I'm getting at is, you know, what does the research on happiness and personality tell us about what kinds of traits tend to be most correlated with happiness and well-being and a flourishing life?

If your goal is happiness, which I am not saying that it has to be, there's more to life than happiness.

But if as far as like happiness, well-being, longevity, all those goodies, it's basically being high, but not too high on all of the five traits.

So being pretty extroverted, pretty agreeable, pretty open to experiences,

quite conscious, like very conscientious, and then very emotionally stable.

You say in the book that extroverts are happier

in part because they interpret ambiguous stimuli more positively.

How true is this?

I mean, I'm sure there are some people out there who might find this kind of claim a little crude.

So

how clear is the evidence on this?

How confident are we that extroverts in general are happier?

I mean, they certainly look like they're having more fun,

but that's anecdotal.

So the evidence that extroverts are happier is pretty consistent.

It's been replicated like, quite a few times, including by researchers who weren't connected to the original studies and were like dubious and they replicated it.

And like the one researcher who did that, who I talked to is himself an introvert.

So it is pretty clear.

The reasons why are less clear.

So as you mentioned, one interpretation is that they, you know, they walk into a room full of people and they're all strangers and they don't immediately get a smile out of anyone.

Like it's just kind of like kind of a straight face kind of people are like, what are you doing here?

I, an introvert, would be like, oh my God, I'm not supposed to be here.

Nobody likes me.

Like, I, you know, I need to leave, like, you know, kind of just like flea, flea, flee.

It's that self-talk, right?

All that, all that self-chatter.

Right, right, right.

An extrovert would be like, oh, awesome.

Like, I just need to introduce myself around.

And like,

like, pretty soon, like, people will warm up to me.

Like, they just like have a different interpretation of events that, that helps them be happier.

They are more active.

Like, they're just always out and doing things.

Like, the people who are signed up for a million clubs and things are extroverts.

And they have more social connections, not just friends.

They also have more like week ties, like more acquaintances, just people they talk to throughout the day.

And that like helps them feel happier.

Support for Unexplainable comes from Anthropic, the team behind Claude.

Claude is an AI that can help you explore different angles on all kinds of questions.

Like the other day, I was watching the Red Sox and they played this sound after a strikeout.

And I was like, huh, I don't remember when that became a thing.

But it also wasn't something that I could just search for easily.

So I asked Claude, he gave me some sources.

I tracked them down, and before I knew it, I had the definitive history of the...

I also use Claude when I'm curious about genuinely complicated things.

I'll ask it something big, we'll go back and forth to hone exactly what I'm looking for.

And yeah, it does get things wrong sometimes.

But when I double check or ask for a citation, it'll give me a better source.

Now, it's important to know how to use Claude well.

Like, ask it follow-up questions.

Actually, check out the citations it gives you.

But if you do, Claude can be a powerful tool.

It helps me find articles and primary documents that I never would have come across.

And it helps me dig wider and deeper, all while staying in control of the digging.

You can try Claude for free at claude.ai/slash unexplainable and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.

Support for the show comes from Charles Schwab.

At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs.

That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices.

You can invest and trade on your own.

Plus, get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs.

With award-winning service, low costs, and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab.

Visit Schwab.com to learn more.

With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you can earn a limited 2% cash back on every purchase.

And you get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more.

Stephen Brandon and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build their retail presence.

Now, that's serious business.

What could the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One do for your business?

Capital One, what's in your wallet?

Find out more at capital1.com/slash spark cash plus.

Terms apply.

Well, let's talk about change, the science of personality change.

As you say in the book, there is this

idea that at around 30, our personalities are, quote, set like plaster.

How true is that?

I mean, how fixed is our personality?

So

that idea is sort of not considered totally true anymore.

There's been quite a bit of research that shows that even when people don't

try to change, they actually end up changing over the course of their lives.

So example is that people get less neurotic as they get older.

They also tend to get less open to experiences.

So if you ever notice that like people get more conservative as they get older, that could be because openness to experiences goes down.

In studies where they follow people over decades and decades, most of those people in those studies change on at least one personality trait.

from like young adulthood to late adulthood, you know, their 60s.

So it's true, like you're not going to be like unrecognizable probably but uh people do change over time just kind of naturally but what kind of the the heart of my book is about is about changing your personality intentionally um which is sort of an even newer branch of research where they actually ask people if they would like to change their personalities give them activities that are meant to help change their personalities and then kind of measure their personalities after the fact.

And so then your personality would change even more.

This part of it is so interesting to me.

I mean, I've had psychologists on the show before, people like Paul Bloom, who I love.

I think he's just fantastic.

And I may be bastardizing

his argument here.

So if you're listening, Paul, you can write in and tell me.

But he always says something to the effect, not necessarily that we, look, you are your brain and that's it.

But he does suggest that, you know, kind of like

by the time you're pretty young, you know, five, six, seven, eight, you know, whatever, somewhere around there,

your personality is kind of clear and it's kind of constant.

You kind of are what you are.

You can tinker a little bit at the margins, and the environment matters.

Of course, it always matters, but that you really are sort of, you kind of are what you are, which isn't to say that you can't, you can't change anything, but

you kind of are what you are.

I mean, do you, do you think that is a little overstated?

Yeah, I mean, I think so.

There is a little bit of truth to that.

So, so part of personality is inherited, right?

It's, it is genetic.

So, like, in some ways, you start to see someone's personality emerge in childhood and like they're going to be

kind of like that, you know, probably for the rest of their lives, like, you know, barring anything major.

But when you talk about tinkering at the margins, like that is actually quite important.

Like a lot of

therapy is basically just tinkering at the margins.

Like

one of the books that I read kind of in reporting out my book is 10% happier.

And that was Dan Harris meditating every day for like an hour a day just to become 10% happier.

That's a lot though.

10% is a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, but that's so like it kind of is, it depends on how you look at it.

Like

I was a really anxious kid and I'm an anxious adult.

You know, does that mean that I am exactly the same as I was when I was seven?

I mean, you know, I'm recognizable, but I also think that I have

knowledge and tools now to like

control my anxiety a lot better, obviously, than I did when I was a kid or a teen, even a young adult.

So I don't know.

I think that's, that's true, but also the margins are really important.

Yeah, no, there's a lot of difference.

Little tweaks here and there do matter.

So, you know, thoughts and behaviors are these two elements of personality.

I mean, how much power do we really have to alter our behavior by consciously, deliberately altering our thoughts?

I mean, how clear is that relationship?

Because if it is fairly clear, that that is seems like one of the more reliable ways to go about, you know,

making some of these tweaks.

The traits where it's all behavioral are definitely the easiest to change.

So conscientiousness is a good example of this.

It's the one that's all about being organized and on time, eating healthy, you know, exercising.

What they found is basically that you don't have to like really want it in order to become more conscientious.

You just kind of have to do the stuff.

associated with conscientiousness.

So like making the to-do lists, making the calendar reminders,

leaving, you know, whatever, 10 minutes earlier,

you know, decluttering your closets.

Like if you do enough of that stuff kind of regularly and consistently,

that is conscientiousness.

Like you will become more conscientious, you will get stuff done and like achieve your goals and

have a higher level of conscientiousness.

With some of the other ones like neuroticism,

or even agreeableness, like the reason why they're harder to change is that you have to really want it.

And it is kind of more about your thought processes and like challenging your thoughts and,

you know, thinking about situations differently.

Like if I was to revisit that day in Florida now

or in Miami, I wouldn't necessarily like do anything differently.

I would just think about it differently.

And

I would be less anxious as a result of how I was thinking about it.

But like that is obviously harder than like making a to-do list.

Well, I did,

I like that quote from Jerome Bruner in the book.

You more likely act yourself into feeling than feel yourself into action, which kind of just feels like, you know, fake it till you make it.

So Nate Hudson, who's like the main researcher that does the personality change research, is, I think my quote from him was like, fake it till you make it is

a reasonable way to do personality change.

And that's because a lot of this is sort of like the actions

kind of make you think about things differently.

So one example for me was with extroversion, where I really did not want to go to all the the stuff that I signed up for.

So I signed up for like improv class and I just really dreaded it every single time.

I did not really want to go, but I kind of found that if I like made myself go, it would make me happier.

And I did have a good time and I enjoyed it.

But it just like

my thought process around improv was I'm not good at it.

I'm not going to have fun.

I don't like this.

I'm an introvert.

So that was like sort of the clearest example of how sometimes you just kind of have to do something and the thoughts will follow from there.

I want to talk more about improv.

I've always wanted to do it.

But again, I'm an introvert and I feel like I would just be paralyzed up there.

But tell me about how long you did that and how transformative it was.

Improv was probably one of the best things I did and also the scariest.

I did that for about a year, kind of like, but it was like several sessions of improv that I guess altogether was about a year of, a year's worth.

And

I was

at times so afraid that I froze up and like didn't know what to say next.

But something that's really cool about improv is that like, it's all about learning that other people can supply

part of the interaction, right?

Like like you, you're not responsible for everything going right in improv.

It's okay if things are just kind of chaotic and strange and not going perfectly.

And I don't know, it's like a good lesson to have for social interaction because a lot of times when you're just out there dealing with people, it's going to be kind of crazy and you just kind of have to roll with it.

And

I don't know.

To me, that was like a good thing to see.

To remind you that 60% of sales on Amazon come from independent sellers, here's Scott from String Joy.

Hey, y'all, we make guitar strings right here in Nashville, Tennessee.

Scott grows his business through Amazon.

They pick up, store, and deliver his products all across the country.

I love how musicians everywhere can rock out with our guitar strings.

One, two, three, four.

Rock on, Scott.

Shop small business like mine on Amazon

With the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you can earn a limited 2% cash back on every purchase and you get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more.

Stephen Brandon and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build their retail presence.

Now, that's serious business.

What could the Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One do for your business?

Capital One, what's in your wallet?

Find out more at capital1.com/slash spark cash plus.

Terms apply.

All right, remember, the machine knows if you're lying.

First statement: Carvana will give you a real offer on your car all online.

False.

True, actually.

You can sell your car in minutes.

False?

That's gotta be.

True again.

Carvana will pick up your car from your door, or you can drop it off at one of their car vending machines.

Sounds too good to be true.

So true.

Finally caught on.

Nice job.

Honesty isn't just their policy.

It's their entire model.

Sell your car today, too.

Car, Vana.

Pickup fees may apply.

Well, look, there's a...

I think a very important question you pose near the end, and I want to ask it here.

How do you know when to keep trying to change?

I mean, how do you know when you've tried enough?

I mean, isn't there some point at which you do more harm by resisting who you are and would be better off just making peace with that?

Yeah.

I mean, this is like,

you know, it's not going to be a hard and fast rule for everyone.

But what I found is that when I was doing things that were like no longer enjoyable on any level and were not getting me any closer to like what I valued or like what I actually wanted is sort of when I would give up on them.

So the big example of this is that I led a meetup group for a while

based around foreign films, which is my hobby.

And I

just like didn't really enjoy it.

I just don't like running meetings.

I do moderate professionally for work, but like, I just don't like to do it in my free time, I guess.

Um, I just, and it kind of like wasn't, you know, I didn't have that high afterward, like I did after improv, where I was like, Yes, that was so fun.

I kind of felt just like, oh, thank God, that's over.

Um, and to me, that was like a sign that it was maybe just time to wrap up and like hand it over to someone else.

Um, and I think that's okay.

Like, you don't, you know, trying something doesn't mean you're like stuck with it for life.

Yeah.

And look, I, I ask this in part because

I am sympathetic to the idea that,

you know, being a little maladapted to a world that's actually pretty shitty in lots of ways isn't the worst thing.

And our society has a way of conspiring to make good and honest people feel weird and unlikable.

And that's a society problem, not a you problem.

But also, it is generally healthy to be well adjusted.

So I don't want to gloss over that either.

Yeah.

And I mean, even things like neuroticism,

you know, in small amounts or in certain situations,

can have some benefits.

Like, I mean, I never did away with my anxiety completely.

It's now like at more manageable levels, but it's not like gone.

And, you know,

in the last chapter, I interviewed Tracy Dennis Tiwari,

who is a psychologist.

And she talks about how anxiety can have some positive elements.

And when

her son was born, he had like a heart condition.

And she talks about how anxiety really helped her prioritize like finding the right specialists, you know, getting him the right treatment, coming up with a good treatment plan, you know, all of the things that are involved in caring for a sick child.

It would be hard to do that stuff if you were completely not anxious, like if you just didn't care about anything.

Like anxiety is in some ways a way of caring.

So,

you know, I think it's fine to like find ways of

living with your anxiety,

but to not like do away with it entirely.

Well, what are the most concrete practical interventions you discovered along the way that people might find useful in their own efforts to improve or align their values and actions?

Sure.

I will just toss some out that I found worked really well for me.

I would sign up for something.

Don't just tell yourself you're going to go out to drinks with your friends more.

Like sign up for a thing that like requires you to be there.

With improv, you couldn't miss more than two classes.

So you had to go even if you didn't feel like going.

Accountability, right?

There's some accountability.

Yeah.

Like that's what I would do for extroversion is I would sign up for a thing.

For conscientiousness, I would actually start by decluttering.

Like if you feel like you're really disorganized,

before trying to like quote unquote get organized, I would just throw away as much stuff as possible.

That was like the loud and clear thing that all the professional organizers told me is that like, it's all about just like having less stuff in your life.

And that can be like, you know, commitments too and like sort of extraneous stuff that you're doing.

And

I honestly would take a meditation class for anyone who's, who's interested in, you know, reducing their neuroticism to whatever degree.

And even if not, like, it's just like an interesting

intellectual exercise

and,

you know, possibly an emotional exercise.

Yeah.

I found the ACT acronym, the ACT acronym, pretty handy, actually.

It's, you know, accept your negative feelings, commit to your values, and take action.

And you can say, you can say anything you like about that, but it certainly the acceptance part seems really fundamental.

I mean, one thing that comes across in a lot of the stories you tell in the book is that it doesn't matter who you are, what you do, where you are.

You're going to have negative feelings all the damn time.

And we add so much unnecessary suffering to our lives when we resist those feelings.

Anyway, I'll let you say anything you want about that.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I found that so helpful.

And that was really how a lot of the people who I talked to who did change their personalities kind of muddled through

because those first few attempts at, you know, being extroverted or, you know, even being conscientious can feel really uncomfortable.

Like getting up at, you know, 5 a.m.

to go for a run is uncomfortable.

And so they really were just like, I'm going to feel uncomfortable.

Like, I'm not going to like this at first, but it's important to me that I keep doing this.

And so I'm going to take action and actually do it.

And I don't know.

I think that's like a good, a good little rule to live by for things that are, that matter to you.

How important is it

to really believe in your own agency?

Is that a fundamental precondition of any kind of change?

To believe that it's possible that you have the freedom and the will to do that.

The argument that I always get into with people is like, some people think that like people never change.

Right.

And kind of the extension of that is like, I will never change because people never change.

And if that's truly what you think, you probably aren't going to try to change and you probably won't change.

There does have to be like some fundamental openness to change in order to even like embark on something like this, because it takes a lot of like energy and courage to do some of this stuff.

And

you can't follow through on it if you think that like it's not going to work.

All right.

Once again, the book is called Me.

but better the science and promise of personality change olga hazan this was fun.

Thank you.

Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

This was great.

All right, I hope you enjoyed this episode.

I know I did.

Personality change is something I thought about a lot over the years, in part because I'm constantly trying to fix things about myself.

This book and this conversation gave me some useful perspective on that, both that it's completely cool to want to improve things about yourself, but also it's important to make peace with who you are and not make yourself miserable fighting that.

But as always, I want to know what you think.

So drop us a line at thegrayarea at Vox.com or leave us a message on our new voicemail line at 1-800-214-5749.

And once you're finished with that, please go ahead, rate and review, and subscribe to the podcast.

This episode was produced by Beth Morrissey, edited by Jorge Just, engineered by Christian Ayala, fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, and Alex Overington wrote our theme music.

New episodes of the Gray Area drop on Mondays.

Listen and subscribe.

The show is part of Vox.

Support Vox's journalism by joining our membership program today.

Go to vox.com/slash members to sign up.

And if you decide to sign up because of this show, let us know.

Adobe Acrobat Studio, so brand new.

Show me all the things PDFs can do.

Do your work with ease and speed.

PDF spaces is all you need.

Do hours of research in an instant.

With key insights from an AI assistant.

Pick a template with a click.

Now your Prezo looks super slick.

Close that deal, yeah, you won.

Do that, doing that, did that, done.

Now you can do that, do that, with Acrobat.

Now you can do that, do that.

With the all-new Acrobat.

It's time to do your best work with the all-new Adobe Acrobat Studio.

Support for this show comes from Capital One.

With the VentureX Business Card from Capital One, you earn unlimited double miles on every purchase.

Plus, the VentureX Business Card has no preset spending limit.

So your purchasing power can adapt to meet your business needs.

Capital One.

What's in your wallet?