Snowball 06 | Stakeout

This is an ABC podcast.

This episode contains occasional coarse language.

Here we go.

Oh man, it's like game day for a sports person that's been training for ages but only has 30 seconds on the field to kind of prove themselves.

My brother Simon and I are in our ridiculous American muscle car.

After months of investigating, today might be the day I come face to face with Leslie Minoukian.

You know how sometimes people say that they have butterflies in their stomach?

Well, I reckon mine's more like bats flying out of a cave, all heaps of them at once.

The trail has led me to this small Californian town called San Luis Obispo.

Leslie was spotted restocking shelves in a supermarket here in the last year or so.

So we're on our way to that supermarket.

Alright, microphone's in the incognito position down in the center of the car sitting in between Simon and I.

Hope you guys can hear us okay.

All the people I've been speaking to from her past, they all say Leslie won't talk.

But I've traveled across the world to be here and I've just got to get Leslie's side of the story.

We're pulling into the workplace

that Leslie's at, we're about to be at

and

she could be in the traffic around us as we drive around.

At this stage, we just want to scope the place out and confirm Leslie still works here.

then we'll figure out how I approach her before we've made a plan we really don't want to be spotted now we play the incognito waiting game

we sit for a while hoping to spot Leslie young supermarket staff walk through the car park to start their shift this guy's going in there wearing his apron

so I wonder if there's a uniform like oh there's there's definitely a uniform right

for a supermarket yeah true it's not mufty yeah

you're not in casual, just wear what you want.

It feels like everything around us is in slow motion.

We're on high alert, sitting up like meercats looking around the savannah.

Simon's pointing to a black car pulling up.

Oh, man.

Oh, wow, we could be on here.

I honestly think we could be on here.

She a female.

Black hair, sunny.

I can imagine her kind of driving a car like this

prison.

Oh, oh, oh.

That honestly looks like her, bro.

That's Minukian, mate.

She's hopping out.

No, it's not her.

No, it's not her.

As we sit here, it seems like everybody could be who we're looking for.

Is that her?

No.

No, it's not her.

She doesn't look too far off that though.

No, it's a close Leslie.

There's only one more thing to do.

I need to go into the supermarket and see if I can see her.

I'm just going to brave a full incognito mode look around in the

supermarket.

Why?

Because I want to confirm that she is there.

I reckon I can do it without being spotted.

It's risky.

I don't want to talk to Leslie actually inside where she works.

I don't want to create a scene at her workplace.

And if she sees me, she might sneak off through a back entrance or something.

Okay here we go

walking through the car park.

Maybe the New Zealand accent will give me away so I should sort of

keep it a little low.

This might be crazy risky but I'm going to go even deeper into the supermarket.

Oh man, this is...

This is some hectic stuff.

I'm in the shampoo aisle.

Okay, the heart is racing.

I'm going down the kind of main aisle now.

I'm going to peel out.

Couldn't spot her behind the cashier's desk.

Looking further down, oh my gosh, there she is.

Absolutely, that's her.

She's working in the customer service aisle

and I reckon I might be able to get a long shot.

Alright.

When I come out of the supermarket Simon is off in the car watching the other entrance.

I want to check if I'm right.

I sent you a little screenshot and have a look at it and you tell me if that's her or not.

It is 100% I just saw I didn't even have to look twice.

Now that we know that Leslie's in there we just have to be able to spot her when she leaves.

I've spent so long hearing from all these people who say that they've been conned by Leslie.

Today, I finally got a shot at asking her about all this stuff.

What really happened in Tahoe, San Diego, Hawaii, and with my family in New Zealand.

But I might only have one shot at talking to Leslie.

So I need to be prepared, cool, and calm.

We retreat away from the car park to finalise our plan.

Then it's all on.

Welcome to Unravel Season 4.

I'm Ollie Wards, and this is Snowball.

It's been 10 years now since I last saw Leslie Minoukian.

It took me most of these 10 years to get past the destruction and lies that woman left in her wake.

When my investigation led me to California, my brother gave me this letter for Cameron, the guy you heard from last episode who owned Phenomenal Restaurant.

I don't know you other than we share a terrible experience at the hands of Leslie Manoukian.

It takes a while to get through it, but you will.

Perversely, it will help you knowing there are many more victims.

It's not such a lonely place when you think it's just you.

For a long time, I wanted to believe that it was just me.

that Leslie desperately wanted to start a new life in New Zealand and she felt compelled to do anything to stay here.

This was the emotional side of the equation I believe Leslie plays on.

Even after I saw the evidence, she still played on my emotions with cute names and crap.

Given your relationship with her, you too would have heard all the stories about how she has been a victim of different people.

And there will be a multitude of these stories, but I'm sure they'll all be falling down now, exposed as lies.

I really hope that you're okay and can get yourself sorted and back on your feet.

Best regards, Greg Warts.

That's just part of the letter.

In the full thing, Greg also suggested to Cameron that Leslie could be busted for what she had done.

But it seems like the only thing that's actually going to catch up with her is me.

I think I've learnt a lot about how Leslie operates, operates, but I'm no pro at this kind of thing.

I normally stick to coming up with dumb radio talk back topics.

Before I try to talk one-on-one with Leslie, I want some expert help.

I'm Maria Konakova.

I am an author, a psychologist, and a professional poker player now.

Maria Konakova, aside from having a name combining two Russian tennis players, knows what I might be up against and more.

She's a doctor of psychology and she spent three years interviewing con artists for her book called The Confidence Game.

Maria says con artists aren't just liars.

The term actually means confidence artist and it comes from confidence not in the sense of how confident you are but in the sense of confidence as in trust.

It's not enough to just kind of commit fraud.

For instance, lots of people commit fraud and are just criminals.

They're not con artists.

And it's not enough to just kind of lie to someone.

You're just a liar then.

You're still not a con artist.

So you need to satisfy all of those things.

You need to gain someone's trust and take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting something that you want that they're not aware of.

That does seem to apply to Leslie's past.

She definitely had some plans going on in the background.

I also asked Maria for some tactics that might get Leslie talking.

Stroke her ego.

That's actually my number one piece of advice.

The reason that con artists were willing to talk to me, even knowing exactly what I was doing, knowing that I was writing about them, was because they're very egotistical.

They're narcissists.

They love being the center of attention and they're proud of what they do.

So don't be confrontational.

Instead, say, you know, I realize you're a good person.

I know.

Use their own tactics on them.

They stroke your ego.

That's how they get to you.

So do it right back to them.

So.

If Leslie is anything like the con artists Maria has spoken to, I need to look out for flattery for her and from her.

Now I have that swirling around in my brain along with trying to be friendly enough to keep Leslie talking while also being firm enough to get some answers.

No worries.

That's not the only challenge I'm facing.

On our reckey earlier we found another potential issue.

The supermarket has two entrances and Leslie could leave from either of them.

So we plan to split up.

Simon will drive to the other side of the car park.

If he sees Leslie, he'll stay in the car.

I don't want her to feel outnumbered.

We drive over to the supermarket.

We get there around the time we think Leslie's shift might end.

Hey, bro, are you in position?

Yeah, I'm just, I've got it like a semi-clear view.

So now we wait.

As we sit there, some dudes go past that give me some confidence we're blending in.

So funny, because

some guys just drove past, similar muscle car with baseball caps on, and I even thought it was me driving past.

That's amazing.

As the minutes tick by, I start getting cold feet.

I could have just stayed at home.

I didn't need to be doing this.

It's 12 years ago, everything's fine, it's gone.

And making life difficult for yourself, Wards.

But I pull myself together.

I call Simon back to check in.

Have you got a good spot on that second door?

Okay,

my spot's not too bad.

I'll just have my phone ready to press your button as soon as I see it.

Okay, we're ready.

But I'm feeling jumpy.

I feel like I just need to keep talking.

We are in the best possible park, the closest one to each of the two entrances to this strip mall.

It's a one-level kind of regional shopping center that you might expect in, I don't know, Ballarat, Geelong, Hamilton.

And now we're just playing the waiting game for her to come out.

So I can have a chat.

Hopefully staff leave through this entrance as well we did drive around the back

oh here's simon hey man

she's walking just in front of you bro where

in the middle walking just down the middle straight down the aisle halfway between me and you okay oh yeah i see her

i see her

i'm running over to her oh she's getting in a car she's getting in a car damn it Damn it

as I get up to Leslie's car, I hear the engine start.

She's about to drive away.

I try knocking on her window and she opens the door just a crack.

Hey, Leslie, it's Ollie Wards.

Hey, what's going on?

Hey, how are you doing?

Oh, my God, how are you?

I'm good.

I've got to let you know I'm recording this because I'm making a bit of a documentary about everything that happened with you and our family.

And I would love to get your side of the story.

Wow, okay.

Well, right now it's not a good time.

I'm super sorry.

Yeah.

If you can just really quickly tell me in 30 seconds, even, like,

I just really wanted to know, because I never got to see you again, like, about everything that happened in New Zealand.

Well, obviously, you know, I'm sure you've heard your parents' side and your brother's side.

And I would love to hear your side, honestly.

I would love to give you, I would love to talk to you seriously.

But right now is honestly, like, honestly, not the best time to do this.

I don't even know what to actually say.

You totally caught me off guard.

I know.

Oh, I'm sorry.

It's really weird.

That's totally you.

It's totally me.

What do you mean?

It's like that's just your personality.

That's how you always have been.

You're just a go-getter, and, you know, you like to get to the bottom of stuff and

get the story, and I appreciate that.

There's that flattery, the psych Maria told me to look out for.

Leslie's opened the door less than arm's length.

Her engine's running.

So I just try to keep her talking.

I appreciate that.

But I do have somewhere to go.

Is there a time that we can...

How long are you here?

I mean, I can catch up with you later today or anything.

How about tomorrow?

Tomorrow is great.

And you know, I really do just want to hear your side of the story.

I believe you, Ollie.

I totally believe you 100%.

And I would love to tell my side of the story because I think I was unfair in some ways, for sure.

But I think that everything could have been handled in a completely different way.

And I'll start with that.

Maybe we can elaborate a little bit more tomorrow.

That sounds like some sort of admission that Leslie knows she's made some bad decisions, but it's vague.

She seems keen to meet up tomorrow and go through things, which is surprising me.

She even gives me her number.

I don't know, grab a number or something.

Not a problem.

949.

Okay, hang on, I'll just take this down.

But I don't want to count on that happening.

So I quickly ask another question.

I know you said that you kind of felt like it was unfair from both sides or anything.

If you could elaborate a little bit.

Well, I just feel that

I just feel that we should have all been able to sit down and have

an adult conversation.

And to be really honest, Ali, I blame your brother a little bit for not kind of

stepping up and kind of pulling your parents and I together as one and letting us sit down and actually have a conversation about why I did some of the things I did to make things happen.

My intent was never to hurt anybody, of course.

But yeah, there's a lot I could say.

But go ahead.

Just like,

you never came back.

I mean, it was 12 years ago.

Did you think about it?

Your brother never once called me.

He never once called you?

Not after.

Not after the initial couple months of us kind of going back and forth and him kind of asking me questions about what happened.

I got paperwork asking for an annulment

and

never heard from him again.

What about the business stuff?

I mean, mean, I'm interested as to what happened at the Dragonfly.

Well, you know, the Dragonfly was kind of a,

yeah, it was kind of one of those situations where,

you know, I did the best I could.

I got in over my head.

Greg got in over his head.

I didn't do my due diligence like I should have either.

So, you know, I was a big, big fault at that.

But again, I didn't have the support that I needed, the back support, to see what we can do to to make this better you know my my only reaction to the whole situation is let me go home to mom and dad sit down talk to them see what we can do about it but then the second I got back to America it was

you did this this this this this this instead of we all did it we all made the decisions together and we we all

I'm not to say to blame but

I just think from an adult situation, I don't think it was handled the way it could have been.

That's all.

Like I said, it wasn't to go there and screw your parents over and screw Greg over or screw myself over.

You know, I came back with nothing too, you know, and I had to start from scratch, you know.

But your brother never once

tried to

pull us all in.

He never came here.

Nothing.

Nothing.

So what was I really supposed to do?

Okay, so she's doing a pretty good job of making things sound like it was just a failed business venture, a failed marriage.

But Leslie doesn't know how long I've been working on this.

The documents people have given me, evidence of possible fraud, fake bank statements, court documents, police reports, even a fake lawyer.

She doesn't know that I know all of that stuff, but I think it's on her mind.

I feel that maybe some of the

ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher.

Yeah, can you explain that?

I mean, what do you mean by that?

Well, what I mean by that is like I

could have revealed my finances more instead of not.

I didn't reveal them the way I should have, you know?

So that was kind of

on me.

Describing everything as not totally kosher seems like an understatement.

But

yeah, I mean, really, I don't really honestly know what else, much more to say but that, you know?

I mean,

like I said, I came back here and it was a lot of just, a lot of phone calls, a lot of blame, a lot of, well, you know, send me.

I asked so many times, Ollie, to get paperwork, to send stuff to me.

All I received was some paperwork saying that, you know, I needed to sign over the business, which I did immediately.

I signed everything over.

Everything that they needed, I did, you know, right from the start.

I didn't try to not do that.

But the fact that your brother never came here, like

to try and even sit down with me and my parents and like, let me show you my side.

Let me, you know, like, I'm not, I can't come back there because you guys already told me if I step foot in your country I was going to jail so how could I possibly come and and fight my side yeah and I appreciate this is upsetting for you obviously you know but upsetting for the last 12 years Ollie I never got closure

I never got to say goodbye to your brother and I truly loved him

so

anyways What what would be the closure that you would want?

It's too late now.

I don't, I just would have loved to have

said goodbye and sorry for any mistakes I made or bad decisions I made.

And I would have loved to have,

I would have loved

for him to have fought just a little harder.

I'm feeling a bit rattled.

I didn't expect Leslie to start crying or to even vaguely concede that she had made bad decisions.

But the biggest shock is who she thinks was at fault.

I thought maybe mum and dad would cop it.

Instead, she's saying Greg should have tried to win her back.

I would have loved to have had an adult conversation and sit down and go through all the numbers, have the bank guy there, everything.

I even offered to do that, you know, and then all of a sudden it was, don't come back here.

And that's what I was told over and over.

I have to stop myself from challenging Leslie on that.

She could hit the gas at any second.

What I really want to do is ask her about some of the things that might be hard for her to explain.

What about the trust fund?

What about it?

Like so, you know, I just, it seems like,

do you still have it or?

No, I do not.

No, I do not.

As Leslie speaks, I'm listening and frantically tapping at my phone to bring up some of that evidence that I've got.

I just want to show you just a document that I've recovered.

On my phone, I have the documents that convinced Kiwibank to hand over a $1.5 million loan.

The loan my parents guaranteed,

thinking that Leslie was putting her trust fund on the line alongside them.

Like I said, said, I've been doing a fair bit of digging around just to try and understand everything that happened.

And

so I'm just showing you this thing on my phone right now, which is a Bank of America statement.

Can you have a look at that and tell me what it is?

Okay, from my trust fund, Colonial Trust?

Yeah?

What about it?

Well, it's a bit weird because the...

the numbers kind of trail off on a little bit of an angle.

So you had about five million in there, right?

Okay, yeah that's what it says but it's just a bit weird because then the the number trails off on a little angle down on the on the side here

and

if you actually add these four numbers well these four numbers it's um starting balance money in money out closing balance it's actually wrong by about six hundred and sixteen dollars oh wow okay

that seems a bit weird for a bank statement right yeah it sure does

and because the other thing is i found that statement but i also found this Barclay Bank statement, which was a joint account between you and Greg, which looks really similar.

Like

it's got, you know, the same things, money in, money out, closing balance, the format's the same.

Dad had said something about this too,

many years ago.

Something about bank stamp bins.

Is this what he was referring to?

Yeah, I mean, even the the barcode is the same on the two statements.

I believe I remember him saying something about that.

And no, I don't have an explanation for that.

Okay.

I don't know what to tell you.

We've heard how Leslie always has a story.

But with those documents on my screen

right in front of her, she doesn't know what to say.

Those were the ones I just forwarded.

I didn't, right?

Those were forwarded to...

to the

from you to Kiwi Bank.

To Kiwi Bank.

Okay, yeah, I remember those.

but um do you think it's a bit fishy that that statement looks the same as the other one and it was forwarded from you to i haven't really looked at them looked at them but if you want to send them to me i mean i can give you an answer but right now but yeah it kind of looks fishy but i don't know like what to say okay cool okay leslie specifically says that she was just forwarding things on to kiwibank I know who sent them to her.

It was her old mate, Eric T.

Weiss Esquire.

He's the lawyer Leslie would use for her bank admin, as well as her supposed book and movie deal.

The guy we're pretty damn sure doesn't exist.

I want to ask about Eric, but I want to start gently.

Can you tell me about your lawyer, Eric T.

Weiss?

Okay.

What about him?

What's his deal?

He's just my attorney, that's all.

I mean,

I haven't talked to him in a few years, but yeah, that's about it.

Why?

I tried to look up a lawyer called Eric T.

Weiss, and I noticed that your one, he...

Los Angeles, uh-huh.

Okay, could you put me in touch with him, do you think?

Sure.

I mean, if I have his phone number still, like I said, I haven't talked to him in a couple of years, but I can give you the last known number for him.

I'd be happy to, no problem.

Leslie's sticking with her story about Eric.

So I'm thinking, I can roll with this.

So, Eric T.

Weiss,

he

was helping you.

You were writing a book, right?

Mm-hmm.

And what ended up happening with that?

Never got published, actually.

Yeah.

And what was that the story of your life?

Story of my life.

Can you tell me about what happened with it?

No, it just never got published.

We actually sent it out to a few publishers and I think about 10 or 12 just got, you know,

it's a chance you take.

I don't know what to say.

Okay, cool.

And just on the letter that was sent from Eric T.

Weiss to Kiwibank, along with these statements, in the email, it gave a phone number for Kiwibank to call if they had any questions.

And that was actually the number for your parents' place in California.

What do you make of that?

It was the same phone number?

No, I don't know.

Uh-uh.

Why?

And so, why did KiwiBank not call and verify?

They did, and they spoke to somebody, so I was wondering who they would have spoken to.

That can't be possible.

There's no way that my parents would pretend to be somebody, if that's what you're trying to say.

That number is still in the white pages listed for Leslie's parents.

I'm just asking the questions, you know?

So I'm just trying.

Can I see that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

That's awesome.

That's because that's super weird

to have my parents' address as Eric's contact information.

And what's also,

the bank advisor actually spoke with Eric on three different occasions when I was sitting in his office.

The bank guy that gave us the loan.

So he would have had the number, the direct number.

You mean he spoke with the Eric?

He had to.

T-Wise, yeah.

Yeah, he had to have.

I mean, to

get all the financing and get all the approvals and all that kind of stuff, you know?

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, it wasn't just like coming from me.

Like, he had to get, he had to verify all the information.

I mean, we went through like a 10 to 12 day period where he had to basically take all the information and verify it, make sure everything was like kosher, you know what I mean?

Just a a second ago, she was saying she could have revealed her finances more, but now she's saying everything was kosher.

I just showed you that the statement that he used to show that didn't even add up.

I understand.

Yeah, I know, I see what you're saying, but I'm also saying that the bank that gave Greg and I the loan, he verified all that information.

not just through me.

Like, he had to call all of the financial institutions in order to verify those funds, in order to give us a loan.

I want to steer things over to Leslie's parents, Betty and Andrew.

Okay, cool.

I'd love to have a chat to them about what they know about everything as well.

Would that be okay?

I don't know.

I mean, I'll have to ask them.

I'll be happy to.

I mean, you know, I mean, it's been a long time, and I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with it.

They always liked you.

They always liked Greg.

I mean, you know, and they were sad that, you know, stuff happened the way they did.

There's more I could ask about her parents, but I realize those questions can be easy to deflect.

And before Leslie bails, I want to keep hitting as many topics as I can.

You told me all about your trust fund and your bar in Hawaii and all of that stuff.

Like,

what was the deal with all that?

True.

It was true.

I mean, I had my bar in Hawaii.

I had my bar in South Lake Tahoe.

I owned a restaurant up here in Paso Robles.

I mean, none of that was lies.

Interesting, she feels the need to specify none of that was lies.

Now that she's brought up some of her past businesses, I ask about them, starting with Hawaii.

Leslie says her problems there happened because she's a mainlander.

If you do a lot of research on Hawaii Ollie, you'll know what it's like to be a Halley and go over to those islands and try and be successful there with the local Hawaiian people.

And you can pretty much ask anybody that and you'll get the same story.

So like Hawaii is a very gnarly place.

You can't go there and

kind of, I guess, look at me type of person, which I did.

you know that the story i told you completely true and it's happened to several other people

If I remember rightly, some people kind of like came, you told me that they came to like sort of break into your place.

Broke into my house.

Police reports are even over there on that.

Broke into my house, I hid under the bed.

I've had a lot of trauma.

You mentioned there was a police report.

I've actually got a police report from that you filed there about the place getting broken into and a ring being stolen and you found a knife on your pillowcase.

So are you saying that that was a different incident or?

That's one of the incidents.

I'm not really sure actually how many reports the police actually filed.

I'm actually really surprised that one was even there.

So yeah, there were several incidences where I called the police more than once, Ollie, more than once, begging for support, begging for them to actually, you know,

take care of the situation as far as that situation was concerned.

And

none of that, you know,

really matters now, I guess.

Kind of grown,

you know grown to accept that those were the things that were supposed to happen to me you know same with New Zealand

but

life is life you know and you gotta you gotta move forward from it and

and learn from your mistakes and try to be a better person and and that's what I'm trying to do in my life and

I'm really sorry that Greg and I never got the closure You know, but I really do wish that he would have

given me that, at least, and came and talked to me and asked me the story instead of you.

I mean, I'm glad to see you, but

as Leslie becomes philosophical with life is life, to be honest,

for a moment I'm kind of with her.

Her sort of shit happens attitude is pretty disarming when it's off the cuff in a car park.

But then I remember I've heard a lot of allegations from a lot of people.

I need to ask her about them.

Yeah, I mean, there's just lots of questions I have around, you know,

people have have said that you've sort of forged checks in the past and

signed other people's checks for them.

Have you ever done that?

Wow, signed other people's checks for them.

Oh, I would love to know who said that, no.

And that's when I start to get into a sort of allegation response ping-pong, starting with this stuff about checks.

Firstly, the Brazilian surfer called Georges, who told the cops Leslie had stolen his checkbook and charged up 13 grand.

No, absolutely not.

I have no idea what he's talking about on that, but for him to say I stole a checkbook, no.

He actually stole money from me on a surfboard.

She refers to Georges by his nickname, Joker.

Joker didn't even have any money, so I don't even know what he's talking about as far as checks are concerned.

Georges stands by what he told the cops and says he never took anything from Leslie.

There was also the other guy in Hawaii, Scott, who told the police Leslie had stolen his credit card and checks.

If he's who I believe he is,

older gentleman with gray hair,

He actually gave me a credit card when I was over there in Hawaii, and this is his true story.

He gave me a credit card to buy supplies for the restaurant, and I went and I bought supplies for the restaurant, would not sleep with him, so then he turned around and called the police and said I stole the credit card and bought liquor with it.

That is exactly what happened.

No checks were ever involved.

He never wrote me a check, nothing.

So what about Tahoe, where it seems like there was some disputes with the landlord of her bar over unpaid rent?

I have no clue.

That would probably be between my dad and him.

I don't know.

My name wasn't listed on that, was it?

Yes, it is, yeah.

I have no clue.

Never went to court up there ever once.

So I got in trouble for a traffic violation up there, but that's it.

I figure it might be harder for her to explain what happened when she got hit with charges related to check fraud.

What about in San Diego and Oceanside?

No.

2003?

No, I think I had some chart.

There was some bank situation, but it got dropped.

It was nothing that I did wrong.

It was nothing illegal.

You ended up pleading guilty to a misdemeanor for that.

It was a burglary charge after six felony counts.

I did not admit guilt to that charge, actually.

Actually, the charges got dropped on that situation because it was a checking account that was open in my name and it was just a miscommunication.

That was a long time ago.

I can't give you exactly the details, but no, I didn't go to jail for that.

I didn't get a felony for that either.

It was suspended because the charges got dropped.

So if if you did dig a little bit further, it would not, there's nothing on my record for that at all.

Actually, she pleaded guilty to one of those charges, but I press on.

I want to know about Cameron, the phenomenal owner from last episode.

Did Leslie forge his checks?

No, absolutely not.

And if he's saying that, then he can come and tell me that to my face.

It's hard to nail down the details on these things while I'm just lingering next to her car.

I want to make sure Leslie feels like she'll get a fair hearing when we meet tomorrow.

So if you want to meet, if you want to meet me or give me a ring and we can maybe go have coffee or something and finish this up, I will do that for sure.

That would be great.

I would really appreciate that.

And then

I'll be able to show you some of the stuff I've got and you can take me through it.

That would be fine.

I'd be happy to do that.

Really, Ollie.

All right, Leslie, I'll shake your hand.

I'm sorry to bail you up on your way out of this.

Okay, no, you know what?

I'm not shocked.

I'm not shocked at all.

Really?

I was actually thinking about you the other day.

Yeah, I was.

I don't know.

You kind of popped in my head a few days ago, maybe maybe about a week ago or so.

And I was kind of wondering how you were doing and how far you went with your life and stuff.

And, you know, I think often of New Zealand and yeah, so I'm not shocked at all and I'm not mad.

So, you know, there's a lot of things in my life, Ollie, that I've done that I'm super proud of.

And there's some stuff that I've done that I'm not either, but I think all of us have, you know.

And

one of my biggest regrets is not being able to go back to New Zealand and settle stuff the way an adult should be able to have the opportunity to do.

It occurs to me that I've asked about stuff from the past, but what does she think of what I'm doing here?

I'm making a podcast which is about everything with you and my family and then obviously I've been sort of you know looking into what's been happening with you over the last you know 20 odd years or so.

So what do you think of that?

I think that if that's something you want to do, go for it.

You know, I'm not insulted.

I'm not

intimidated by it at all.

You know, you do what you want to do, okay?

I'm honestly, I have nothing to hide, and I will be as upfront with you as I possibly can with what I can remember and with the knowledge I have, okay?

I will give you that.

A cool thing you might like is: I've approached Alyssa Milano to play the role of you.

Oh, you did, really?

Thank you.

That's pretty funny.

Thank you.

Okay, let's talk tomorrow.

Okay, thank you.

You guys have a good one, okay?

All right, take care.

Bye.

Okay, thank you.

Take care.

Wow,

man, she's good.

I even feel like I believe her.

I've been looking at these statements and you know, forgeries and everything for like quite literally months.

And in that conversation,

I'm standing here like,

okay, well, that seems legit.

And I really hope that Leslie will meet with me tomorrow to talk through some of this stuff.

Oh man, here's Simon.

Do you want to jump out of the car?

In a weird way, I was just saying I...

She's very convincing.

Oh yeah, are you flipped now?

She's very convincing.

Cool as ice.

She did cry at one point and she said that

she really loved Greg and she was really disappointed he didn't fight for her.

Yeah, I mean

I can't really comment on that because I don't know what to believe.

We've just spent the last four or five days of people just showing us fake, fake, fake stuff that she did.

So it's hard to really believe anything she says.

But I don't know, like she was with Greg for a couple of years, you know, so I'm sure she has feelings for him.

It's probably impossible not to, you know.

I'm just

amazed at how friendly she was and she was giving and she had a lot of nice things to say about me and

she was even at the end there saying oh I was thinking of you just the other day and

you know

that her big disappointment is she can't come back to New Zealand now because dad told her that she would be arrested yeah she

because she committed fraud

the thing is when I was showing her stuff and she's like you know she was doing the shaggy wasn't me

you know I'm like but I caught you in the fake bank statement wasn't me and

what do you say to that?

Yeah, at this point.

Yeah, just one second, buddy.

I'm gonna make sure no one else is on the internet.

That night, Simon and I call Greg.

It could be tough for him to hear, but we want to play him some of what Leslie said.

I never got closure.

I never got to say goodbye to your brother.

I truly loved him.

So,

anyways.

Do you think that's real?

Real feelings?

I'd like to think so, but and little, yeah, part of me says, yeah,

but

I don't know, the fact she had form before I was around.

Nah.

How do you explain

so many victims?

Like, you know,

was it just one mistake, or is she she just like a fucking serial offender?

And it's hard not to see how she's not.

It goes back to what she just said in the car there.

Never got closure, truly loved your brother.

I reckon that's all bullshit

if there's

a pattern of her doing this to many people because there's nothing unique about me.

in that respect.

Greg isn't completely without sympathy for Leslie, but for the most part, his sympathies lie elsewhere.

We've beeped out Cameron's real name here.

So I'd imagine she's having a pretty shit night.

But for me, it's just a little bit about other people too, you know?

It's not just about me.

I guess what I mean by that is,

you know, is what would say?

What would the Brazilian guy in Brazil say?

And all those other people, you know?

They'll just be like,

fuck, she said the same shit to me too.

Greg,

like I said last night, bro, you've been super brave, just even

entertaining this thing.

You've been honest and put yourself out there, wore your heart on your sleeve, bro.

And you're the one that's actually worn this arguably harder than mum and dad, even.

So,

mate, get on you, bro.

I love you.

I love you, bro.

Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know, you guys.

Yeah, just

I think it's pretty amazing what you guys have done.

I mean, you guys have done this for us, right, as well.

So,

you know, right back at you.

Today was a big day, man.

It was a big day.

Yeah, bro.

Big day.

I don't know what to make of it all.

Yet.

Leslie was as cool as a cucumber in a cup of ice cubes, but I know lots of what she said melts away when I show her evidence.

If she shows up tomorrow, maybe she'll admit more.

Next episode.

So I sent Leslie a text suggesting that we meet up at the Starbucks near the supermarket she works at, and she's just sent me a text back.

So here it is.

Hi, Ollie, and good morning.

It was really good to see you too.

In the meantime,

Simon and I start thinking about what Leslie's life must be really like.

This kind of existence must be

traumatic and fucking sad and just horrible.

I'll need some help to understand that.

They're motivated in the sense of power over other people, control over other people's lives.

In over 90% of cases, TrueCon artists are repeat offenders and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak, they don't take it.

That's next time for the final chapter of Snowball.

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