Inside the Investigation with Payne Lindsey, Dennis Cooper, and Kyle Tekiela

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Speaker 3 Hey, it's Payne Lindsay here.

Speaker 4 A few months ago, live from the Tenderfoot stage at CrimeCon, I got a chance to sit down and talk to Kyle Tequila, host of Crook County, and Dennis Cooper, the host of Culpable.

Speaker 4 We discussed both of their true crime podcasts, but also dove a lot deeper into how these shows are actually made.

Speaker 3 I hope you enjoy my conversation with these two amazing podcasters.

Speaker 7 These guys are true crime podcasters like me.

Speaker 8 They have their own investigations and stories that they've told.

Speaker 7 I'm huge fans of theirs, and I've known them for a long time.

Speaker 10 I think we all have kind of our own unique experience in this space, and also like a lot of similarities.

Speaker 13 And I just kind of want to just rip it open with, I'll start with you, Kyle.

Speaker 14 For those who don't know,

Speaker 5 what is this, just the log line of your story, your podcast, and

Speaker 14 you came to us years ago and I was like, okay, holy shit, we're making a podcast about this.

Speaker 7 But for those who don't know, tell them what the premise is.

Speaker 16 Yeah, Crook County is a story of my dad who lived a secret double life as a Chicago mafia hitman. And the whole family, including myself and my mother, didn't know about it.

Speaker 16 He kept it secret from all of us for 30-something something years and I found out when I was like 29.

Speaker 16 I was already married, I was already planning on having a kid and now I have this bombshell dropped in my lap. So what am I supposed to do with this information?

Speaker 16 And so it took me years to kind of digest all of that and then I started recording just for posterity, just for family archives.

Speaker 16 And then as time went on and the more footage I got of him, it just started to come together. Like it just needed to be something bigger than just a family thing.
It needed to be a show so

Speaker 16 i've watched the sopranos and stuff like that i mean i like goodfellas i like mafia style movies i don't know what it's like for it to be a true story because a part of me is like that's badass but that's definitely not what you thought correct well what's weird is i still don't know what it's like okay because i grew up with like he was just a firefighter paramedic in my eyes like we had no idea so we lived like normal boring suburban lives right it wasn't like we knew that he was this big mafia hitman growing up and he had a reputation around town and everyone knew we were like mafia

Speaker 16 kids. Like that's not how it was at all.
We just thought we were a regular family.

Speaker 16 So it's weird knowing now that that whole part of my life was kind of like a lie and that there was always danger around every corner.

Speaker 16 Like if he did something, he fucked up, like that could have come back on us, but we had no idea. So that's crazy to think about.

Speaker 8 What was your first reaction and where have you settled?

Speaker 16 Yeah, my first reaction was you're full of shit. Like, are you insane? Have you lost your mind? Now, mind you, he was also like, I put him through rehab and I got him clean, so he was a heroin addict.

Speaker 16 So I'm like, is this some like heroin fever dream? Like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 5 What happened in that rehab I put you in?

Speaker 19 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 16 So,

Speaker 16 yeah, it wasn't an ayahuasca trip, was it?

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 16 So, but, but over time, as he started telling me more and more of the story, and it became this huge, like, you know, full of details and full of life, and you know, I'm starting to verify things with people that he grew up with and other family members who didn't know but kind of knew that he had like a dark side.

Speaker 16 And it all started to make sense, like, oh, this actually is real. I don't know how much is real, but it's real.
Like, there's enough there that's real. So I just started diving in and doing the work.

Speaker 16 And eventually we got Crook County out of the deal.

Speaker 9 So to sum it up, at this point in time, how do you feel about it, actually?

Speaker 17 Are you mad? Are you...

Speaker 16 You know, if he wasn't such a fuck-up, pardon my French,

Speaker 16 and it didn't like...

Speaker 16 The mafia thing didn't destroy the family. His heroin addiction destroyed the family.

Speaker 12 Okay.

Speaker 16 So I'm pissed that he's a degenerate heroin addict and that the dynamic of our family is like gone because it's.

Speaker 9 Is that associated with the double life he was living?

Speaker 16 Well, I mean, he was always like, I mean, he's around narcotics and cocaine and booze all the time.

Speaker 16 And he's, you know, it's just, I can't imagine the stress and guilt you could feel feel being someone who's killed people, multiple people. Like, that had to weigh on him.

Speaker 16 And so, you self-medicate, right? But it got really bad because, as a firefighter, he was in a really bad accident, and then they gave him all these painkillers to deal with the surgeries.

Speaker 16 And that's when everything escalated as far as his addiction is concerned. And that's like when you get to the point.

Speaker 11 You feel like the legal form first, and then it just became an absolute exactly.

Speaker 16 Then you had to hit the streets after they cut him off.

Speaker 16 So it's like, I'm more mad that that happened.

Speaker 16 And

Speaker 16 But now it's like, I guess I'm grateful that we didn't get the mafia blowback as a kid. Like, I'm grateful that whatever he did didn't come back on us.
So it's a weird, full of very contracting

Speaker 16 emotions.

Speaker 5 You know, I've covered dozens of stories, but they've never been about

Speaker 5 my family, right?

Speaker 11 Yeah, I'm sure.

Speaker 14 And so like, that's got to be a completely different beast.

Speaker 5 And so I think that, one, kudos to you for,

Speaker 14 I mean, I'm sure maybe it's even therapeutic in some weird way to sort of like put it down and like, I don't know, is it a processing part of that?

Speaker 16 I mean it took me years to make it for a reason. Yeah.
Because I needed that time to process it.

Speaker 16 And because the whole time I'm also investigating, I'm learning new information, I'm getting new stories out of him.

Speaker 16 I'm interviewing people. I'm

Speaker 16 getting more raw emotions from people.

Speaker 16 And so it took a long time to, you know, I'm like editing and putting a story together and also processing things at the same time.

Speaker 16 Then I take a break, then I edit a little bit and then I process and I take a break. Yeah.
And so, but yeah, it's extra. Now that it's all done, it's extremely cathartic.

Speaker 16 Like, I feel like that monkey is off my back now, and it's no longer my burden like it was.

Speaker 16 Like, now it's like out into the world, and now it's like a gift, like my gift to other people to maybe listen and maybe learn from or maybe gain some inspiration or hope or whatever.

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Now back to the show.

Speaker 7 Let's start with just Culpable Season 1, like you getting into True Crime Podcasting, just

Speaker 12 that journey.

Speaker 26 Yeah, so not a personal story so much, you know, working with strangers on the contrary, but

Speaker 26 as you know, I mean, you were a big inspiration for me. I just pretty much heard what you did and thought I could probably steal that formula.

Speaker 27 Oh, yeah, that guy, I can do better than that guy. Yeah, you know, so

Speaker 1 he did. he did.

Speaker 1 And he's so much better. He did.

Speaker 26 That's what I've been saying.

Speaker 13 I've been trying to tell you guys.

Speaker 26 But, yeah, no, I just,

Speaker 26 funny enough, I never intended on doing this. It was just something that, you know, I thought was really cool, and I was inspired by what you did, and thought maybe I could.

Speaker 26 And, you know, to shorten a long story, I learned about Christian Andraakio's case at CrimeCon of all places, which is why. I always love coming to this.

Speaker 26 I always love seeing so many people out here and seeing these people, you know, pass out their loved ones flyers, just trying to get attention on it because

Speaker 26 ultimately at the end of the day, you want to solve these cases that you follow, but a big part of it too is just getting them the attention that they need and deserve.

Speaker 26 And so it was 2018 CrimeCon Nashville and got a flyer from one of his family members about his case and contacted Ray Andriacchio and the rest of history from there.

Speaker 8 Telling the story of an unsolved case and you're basically trying to pick up where investigators left off and move the needle.

Speaker 16 Tell me, from your perspective, what that's actually like.

Speaker 26 Well, it's tough. I mean, there's so many layers to it.
You know, just to go back to the start of your question about picking up the pieces where they've been left off, you know,

Speaker 26 oftentimes that's the problem with these cases. That's why they remain unsolved is because that attention dies off.

Speaker 26 The

Speaker 26 police department or sheriff's office moves on to new cases and this one is just getting colder and colder by the day and so

Speaker 26 you know also these are more often than not open cases so it's not something that you can just walk in there and see the whole book on it and all the investigative work that went into it right you're really

Speaker 26 like you alluded to more than anything starting from scratch now fortunately in season one of culpable

Speaker 26 Christian's mother, Ray, was just a warrior,

Speaker 26 a bulldog of sorts is like I referred to her and she,

Speaker 26 you know, for years was like, I'm not going to give up on this. I'm going to get to the bottom of this.
And so,

Speaker 26 you know, I had a leg up in a sense of that I knew some information going into it.

Speaker 26 But for different reasons, the

Speaker 26 authorities there did not have any interest

Speaker 26 opening up the doors anymore on that or working with us in any capacity. And that's still something I think all of us struggle with to this day.

Speaker 26 I know you just had some of that in your most recent season.

Speaker 26 It's just, I think a lot of them are still warming up to the idea of people like us coming in and trying to help them essentially at the end of the day.

Speaker 26 But then on the personal side, it's a different kind of struggle because

Speaker 26 I do want to have a personal connection. I do want to connect with the family and meet them on an emotional level.
I've always been a natural, you know, just empathizer.

Speaker 26 And so I have no problem making those connections. Where I struggle is,

Speaker 26 you know, it's sensitive material and

Speaker 26 they can't write these stories. These are our stories about their loved one.
And so that balance is always a struggle.

Speaker 26 It's always a struggle of knowing what to say and how to best say it in a way that's,

Speaker 26 you know, caring and concerning of their emotions, but also getting the truth out there.

Speaker 11 What's actually the hardest part about it, genuinely?

Speaker 8 Or maybe even not even when you're doing it, but like afterwards and sort of like, you know, I was told by Mark Smerling, who did the Jinx

Speaker 5 six, seven years ago, and at the time I didn't even fully get what he meant.

Speaker 14 He said, these stories never leave you.

Speaker 27 And I was like,

Speaker 18 right.

Speaker 27 I was like, what do you mean?

Speaker 5 He's like, they never leave you.

Speaker 11 He starts talking about cases he did 25 years ago.

Speaker 9 I was like, see, I still talk to this people.

Speaker 10 And I'm like,

Speaker 18 you're right.

Speaker 8 And like, I'd only been eight eight months into investigating Terry Grince's disappearance.

Speaker 9 And I was like, I guess it's going to be part of my life forever.

Speaker 14 What does that even mean, right? But it's true.

Speaker 26 Yeah, it's very true. I can't really put it a better way than you just did.
I mean, I think in.

Speaker 26 Well, you should. I'm going to do my best.
I mean, it's like,

Speaker 26 I didn't know this going into it either.

Speaker 26 When I decided to do season one of Culpable,

Speaker 26 I just thought it was like, talk to who needs to be talked to, figure out what you can figure out, write a story, record it.

Speaker 16 Fortunately, I don't know. You're like, that guy didn't do...

Speaker 14 I could do that shit.

Speaker 26 I underestimated it.

Speaker 27 You fucked around and found out.

Speaker 26 I fucked around and found out. Yeah, you're like, damn.
And then I'm like,

Speaker 26 it is a

Speaker 26 long journey, an emotional journey.

Speaker 26 I mean.

Speaker 26 I'm pretty sure I've shaved years off my own life, but again, it's not a pity party. You're right.
I'm fortunate to be able to do this, and I love doing this.

Speaker 26 But man, it's a lot.

Speaker 26 And I didn't realize when I signed a contract to do that show that in a way I was signing a contract with the family of like,

Speaker 26 we're in this together forever, essentially.

Speaker 26 And that's really what it was. I mean, I just...
I just

Speaker 26 contacted Ray Andriacchio just about a month or so ago,

Speaker 26 and we kind of did a follow-up and put an episode out about it, and we're talking, like, what's new, and, you know, do we need to do some other follow-up, and this and that?

Speaker 26 And it's just, you know, and we're talking about our families and stuff. It's not just about the victim.
I mean, we're meeting on a more personal level.

Speaker 10 You look around and see other true crime podcasts, and they're mostly not about their own personal story, about their dad living some double life.

Speaker 8 So, what was your approach and

Speaker 13 the closeness that you had with that, and how you delicately, I mean, because there's a level of vulnerability there I can only imagine was kind of just weird and like maybe uncomfortable.

Speaker 16 100%.

Speaker 16 You know, like at first it's a story about my dad.

Speaker 16 And then as I'm recording and I'm asking myself questions and I'm contemplating and I'm mulling all this stuff over, I'm going, well, no, it's much more than that.

Speaker 16 It's a story about like what happened to my mom too. And it's also a story about what happened to my brother, which means it's a story about what happened to me.

Speaker 16 So it's like, I'm going through all these mental exercises and trying to figure this out. And at a certain point I said, I have to put myself into the story.

Speaker 16 You kind of just have to be completely shameless and like get rid of the ego.

Speaker 16 And like if you, if like, you know, there are times when I felt like I was really weak and I made weak decisions because I was young and immature.

Speaker 16 You know, you almost have to like take a step back and like I become a character in my own story, but I'm not that character. I am that character, but I have to treat it like

Speaker 26 how you got here. Right.

Speaker 16 So it's a weird exercise, but like, and it was hard at first or awkward at first, but over time it becomes second nature. And then by the end of it, it's just, like, I don't care at all.

Speaker 16 Like, I completely wear my heart in my sleep. Like, I will say exactly what I'm thinking.
I don't care if you don't like me.

Speaker 16 But, like, you know, in contrast to what you guys do, I'm not treating it like a procedural crime

Speaker 16 that I have to solve. I'm treating it like...
I am telling a very deep, intense story with a million different layers, and I have to do it.

Speaker 16 And I have to do it authentically, and I have to do it in a way that is going to make the family proud. That family just happens to be my family.

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Speaker 9 The human curiosity is at the core, like a relatable thing.

Speaker 19 Oh, for sure.

Speaker 8 And absolutely.

Speaker 7 That manifests in different ways.

Speaker 14 So, for you, Dennis, like

Speaker 15 how do you creatively keep going when it already is a lot of pressure from

Speaker 14 a cold case standpoint?

Speaker 5 And there's people saying, you suck, you got it wrong.

Speaker 10 And the family's like, I don't know if you're right.

Speaker 5 And the law enforcement's like, don't come over here.

Speaker 13 Yeah. Right?

Speaker 26 Well, I think ultimately it's just enjoying what you do and being passionate about it.

Speaker 26 I mean, like you said, none of us really have the qualifications, you could say, to be in here, whatever those qualifications are.

Speaker 1 None of us don't.

Speaker 18 You know, I don't. Kyle.

Speaker 16 I definitely don't.

Speaker 1 No, for sure.

Speaker 11 If hair were to be a qualification, you do.

Speaker 18 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 16 I have a PhD.

Speaker 1 You do.

Speaker 14 It looks so real.

Speaker 19 It's a great rug. It looks very real.
It's a great rug.

Speaker 16 I got a great rug guy.

Speaker 26 But yeah, just, you know,

Speaker 26 being passionate about it. That's why I love making connections with families is I think that kind of helps.
keep you going,

Speaker 26 making a very deep connection with the victim

Speaker 26 and knowing, like, I'm in this for the long haul, no matter how hard it gets.

Speaker 26 But, you know, I'm kind kind of like, I think if you peeled back all of our layers, I'm sure there's something there that points to why we're here.

Speaker 26 I mean, as a college dropout, I probably shouldn't be here, but at the same time, like, I was, as a kid,

Speaker 26 I did watch Survivor, I was not filming anybody,

Speaker 26 but I did like to write short stories for fun, you know, and so I always had

Speaker 26 kind of a creative itch, I guess you could say, as a writer. For whatever reason,

Speaker 26 I did not pursue that as a career in any sort of way,

Speaker 26 but it worked out nonetheless, I guess you could say.

Speaker 26 So yeah, but I think ultimately it's like you said, making something that you would want to listen to because as you know, having made it yourself, and I listened to it as a fan, what, seven years ago or whatever it was, like

Speaker 26 you clearly didn't sound like you knew what the hell you were doing.

Speaker 1 Clearly. Clearly.

Speaker 12 Clearly.

Speaker 13 How clearly was that to you?

Speaker 26 It sounded like you were walking around with a Zoom record.

Speaker 14 I'm going to do exactly what that guy did.

Speaker 26 It sounded like you were walking around with a Zoom recorder, walking up to people, saying, hey, do you know anything about this?

Speaker 9 That was like 25% of it.

Speaker 26 But at the same time, it made it seem attainable and also made me realize, damn,

Speaker 26 you can convey a lot and you can tell a really compelling story by just having your heart in it and

Speaker 26 through audio only.

Speaker 26 And that amazed me as somebody who was always fascinated with watching true crime and growing up watching shows like Dateline 2020 and watching every documentary that was out there to learn that there was this medium where it had no visual representation but yet you could feel like you were in a movie was like, well damn, I want to do that.

Speaker 26 That sounds really cool and easier, honestly. Like I don't know how to work a camera.
That'd be a whole nother thing to try to learn. So

Speaker 26 you know, I just try to master that and

Speaker 26 keep my heart in it until the end with the stories I tell.

Speaker 14 In the future going forward, in any other projects you do, how are you approaching it differently or what have you learned and what do you want to bring forward for

Speaker 8 your own work in this space?

Speaker 26 Doing different seasons of Culpable means you can pick a different case each time and with that opens the door to all different possibilities. This newest season of Culpable is very different in that

Speaker 26 right when I started to produce it,

Speaker 26 some events happened and I obtained the case file to this case and beyond that there was all these different recordings and stuff from way back in 1998, which has been really cool to utilize and work with and with something very different than I did in past seasons.

Speaker 26 So, I mean, I think in some ways, each story just being different, each victim being different, each family being different, each expert you talk to, it opens possibilities, like different creative avenues.

Speaker 26 Because I'm like you as a creative, like you definitely don't ever want to get stuck in a lane. or feel like you're just doing the same thing over and over and over.
It drives me nuts.

Speaker 8 It's also like you're doing like your best still, right?

Speaker 18 Yeah.

Speaker 26 Yeah, just coming up with.

Speaker 16 Not getting lazy. Yeah, like complacent with like yeah

Speaker 26 more of these for sure like that's not what this is right and that's why also deep down i mean i i also would like to break out at some point and try something different you know i messaged you when high strengths came out and was like man you're like take me on a ufo ride please like

Speaker 12 yeah all right it didn't

Speaker 26 it didn't sound quite it didn't sound quite as emotionally exhausting you know what i mean like it's just like it's different that is very true and it just just you know so i think at some point too i'd like to try to to branch out and do some some different types of to projects like that.

Speaker 13 And you should.

Speaker 14 I think that, like, your storytelling, like, skill set

Speaker 8 could live in so many different lanes.

Speaker 1 And I think that's what it takes sometimes to even, like, get this sort of energy back where, like, I've gone through, like, whoa, man, I have to, like, heal

Speaker 1 after.

Speaker 8 Like, being in the trenches with something.

Speaker 26 I was going to say, do you have to like take a vacation after you finish this thing?

Speaker 14 It's not, it's like, it kind of just builds up where

Speaker 5 I don't even realize it's gotten so bad.

Speaker 13 Who am I?

Speaker 1 I usually know the bags for eyes.

Speaker 26 The bags under the eyes is always the dead giveaway. When you start seeing those when you look in the mirror,

Speaker 14 you're like, but I did sleep.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 9 it's just a,

Speaker 9 you learn that through time, and you've got to like take care of yourself to be able to do something,

Speaker 11 especially about anyone else.

Speaker 16 And

Speaker 16 keeping that. 100%.
You've got to be on your game, otherwise you're going to do a disservice to whatever the story is.

Speaker 18 Right, or you shouldn't be doing that.

Speaker 13 So there's like a pressure there. Yeah.

Speaker 16 For sure. I mean, that's another thing, too, but like some of the stuff that I don't know if you've done this in years, but like you were doing stuff that was like live.
Like you were editing and then

Speaker 16 the next episode's not done until it's releasing next week. That's got to be insane.

Speaker 5 It's important to sort of like check yourself, balance yourself.

Speaker 5 to make sure you're doing it the right way. You know what I mean?

Speaker 16 Yeah, I mean there's a rule I learned in Hollywood a long time ago is nobody knows what they're doing, and nobody knows what they're talking about, no matter how successful.

Speaker 16 And I think to some degree that's extremely true. Right.
You know, and so you just, you can't beat yourself up if you're trying to do your own thing.

Speaker 16 You just got to go and do it and believe in yourself and just persistence is key and just keep cranking away and like it'll just start to make sense and it will just start to get good.

Speaker 16 If it's not good yet, it will if you just keep working at it. And I think that's what makes us a little crazy.
You kind of have to be a little crazy to do what we do.

Speaker 10 Yeah, a little bit, because like not everyone's going to be like, yes, correct.

Speaker 27 Right?

Speaker 13 Like, there's a period of time where everyone's like, I don't really get what he's doing, to be honest.

Speaker 14 And you gotta push through that part.

Speaker 27 And you're like, damn, maybe they're right.

Speaker 13 I shouldn't be doing any of this shit.

Speaker 15 Right? And, like, that, and that applies with anything.

Speaker 16 But also,

Speaker 16 but no, fuck those people, because you believe in yourself. So just do what you want to do.

Speaker 18 That's true. So don't be in the middle of it.

Speaker 9 I'm like, wow, this guy just doesn't care about anybody. Just fuck, fuck us.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Really?

Speaker 16 He's so self-defense. I just realized I'm swearing a lot in this panel.
I apologize, dude.

Speaker 27 Dude, it's fucking fine. Sorry.

Speaker 16 I'm from Chicago. Don't even fucking worry about it, bro.

Speaker 11 This is fucking GrimeCon, dude.

Speaker 8 Thank you guys for sitting here and listening to us talk shit for a little while.

Speaker 3 This has been really enjoyable.

Speaker 5 Hopefully, you guys were at least mildly entertained, or you learned something, or at least you're like, okay, I'm never fucking with those guys again.

Speaker 7 You know, I don't know.

Speaker 27 Yeah.

Speaker 21 Thanks for joining us. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Cheers, y'all.

Speaker 4 Thanks for listening.

Speaker 3 This conversation was live from CrimeCon with Kyle Tequila and Dennis Cooper. If you haven't already, be sure to check out Crook County and the new season of Culpable.

Speaker 8 And stay tuned for some exciting new shows coming very soon from Tenderfoot.

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Speaker 30 Every story has layers, and sometimes the truth hides in plain sight. I'm Josh Dean, host of Chameleon, the podcast about about people who transform, deceive, and survive.

Speaker 30 From con artists to unbelievable yet true occurrences, we dive into stories where nothing is ever quite as it seems. Because to understand the world, you sometimes have to change the way you see it.

Speaker 21 Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.