Carlson’s War: Part 2

Speaker 1 This is a Sunday story, and we continue with Quill Lawrence's reporting about combat veteran Dave Carlson. Quill first met Carlson while he was incarcerated more than 10 years ago.

Speaker 1 At the time, Carlson was serving a prison term for a variety of crimes he'd committed after two tours in Iraq.

Speaker 1 And a warning, this episode includes explicit language as well as descriptions of violence and mentions of sexual assault and suicide. Quill continues the story from here.

Speaker 3 Dave Carlson went into prison in very bad mental health. And like we said in episode one, incarcerated veterans get very few VA services.
So his PTSD isn't being treated and he does not do well.

Speaker 3 Oh man, at first it was really bad. People banging.
Like in certain areas of jails and prison, people bang a lot. And you know, wake up to banging.

Speaker 3 Well, you know, waking up to mortars is waking up to bang. And then when I wake up like that, my adrenaline is spiked.

Speaker 3 In prison, he starts to behave like he's still at war. He reverts back into combat mode.
He's coming up with tactics to keep the enemy at bay. He came up with a whole system for cell fighting.

Speaker 3 He would put a slick of baby oil at the entrance to his cell so anyone who rushes in would slip. And he would train specifically for cardio so he could outlast anyone in that small space.

Speaker 4 And he's telling me, he's like, man, it was just like I was back in Iraq.

Speaker 3 Josh Fridgen, his special forces buddy, was in touch with Carlson after he was sent to prison and said that at one point, Carlson told him he was in such a dark place that he was plotting a kind of suicide attack from his cell.

Speaker 4 He thought about making a shank, walking up to the guard's window, and just slitting his throat and bleeding out in front of them just to give them PTSD.

Speaker 3 On my calls with him from prison, Carlson told me he was having combat nightmares and his violent outbursts got him put in solitary for a long time.

Speaker 3 He was screaming 24-7, screaming, crying, feces, people do piss.

Speaker 3 Josh Frisian says Carlson told him he actually felt like he was staring down the devil there in solitary.

Speaker 4 That's where his head was at that time. So he's got to sit in there alone with his thoughts.
And I

Speaker 4 think that might have been one of the better things for him where you can't, you're kind of forced to sit there and think about your problems.

Speaker 4 it was terrible i mean it's silence it's uh besides people screaming um people splitting their cells but otherwise there's no there's no you know there's no tv there's no you know radio there's none of that stuff and uh

Speaker 4 um

Speaker 4 dealing with that was was very hard for me

Speaker 4 uh i think that's where he found god that's where he said he found god and then basically that was probably the the big turning point for Dave where he just started kind of rebuilding.

Speaker 3 To rebuild, Carlson had to find a new mission. And he comes to the idea that he should serve others.

Speaker 5 If I need to go out and selflessly pursue helping other people that are in my position, you know, I feel like I can maybe help prevent them from going down the same road that I did.

Speaker 3 So let me set the scene.

Speaker 3 Just months after he found faith in solitary, Carlson was due for that sentencing hearing in Waukesha, Wisconsin, the one you heard in episode one, where his mom and his grandma and his combat buddies all showed up for him.

Speaker 6 We're here today on the matter of state of Wisconsin versus David Carlson.

Speaker 3 And at this hearing, the judge is deciding whether to extend Carlson's sentence for the new crimes he committed in prison or set him free for time served.

Speaker 1 When we come back, the sentence.

Speaker 6 Mr. Carlson, this criminal justice system, frankly, has bent over backwards.

Speaker 6 And frankly, sir, the response to all that has not been good.

Speaker 1 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1 We're back with a Sunday story from up first. Here's NPR's Quill Lawrence.

Speaker 3 Dave Carlson's hearing on September 3rd, 2015 takes place before Judge Donald Hassen. Hassen happens to be a veteran himself.
He served in Vietnam.

Speaker 3 In his opening remarks, he doesn't sound convinced that Carlson deserves any more second chances.

Speaker 6 Mr. Carlson, This criminal justice system, frankly, has bent over backwards and gone through a lot of hoops in an effort to maintain you in the community.

Speaker 6 And frankly, sir, the response to all that has not been good.

Speaker 3 When you think about it, Dave Carlson has messed up a lot. All the crimes after he got back from Iraq, plus all the fighting in prison, it adds up.

Speaker 3 And Judge Hassan seems to have already done the math for Dave Carlson's sentence.

Speaker 6 I'm looking at a fine young man sitting here in front of me today that I'm going to end up putting in prison for a little bit.

Speaker 6 The sentence today is two years on each count, two years confinement, two years extended supervision for an aggregate of four years.

Speaker 3 And that sounds like four more years in prison. And his family and his combat buddies all gasp.

Speaker 3 But then the judge explains that it's concurrent with time served. So actually he's going to be out in a couple of months.

Speaker 6 That, by my estimation, Mr. Carlson, will better prepare you.
for your return to the community because the next time you come to the community, sir, all that we wish from you is your success.

Speaker 3 and i realized the judge had the same question i did how did dave carlson go so wrong and even for all his missteps the judge is betting that carlson can fight through this

Speaker 6 so do i trust you mr carlson i want to

Speaker 6 and that's why i didn't put you in prison today for what amounts to be six years i'm giving you the challenge sir of leaving the state prison system here in a fairly short period of time.

Speaker 6 But you you know what? You can do it. You're very capable of it, Mr.
Carlson. These guys behind you believe that you're capable of it today as well, or they wouldn't be here, right?

Speaker 6 Sir. Okay.
So to them, you owe something due, right?

Speaker 6 Yes, sir. You do.

Speaker 6 All right, that's the order of the court, Mr. Carlson.
We don't need you back, sir. Good luck, okay? Hi, sir.

Speaker 3 But the judge isn't taking it on faith that Carlson's going to make it. The sentence includes 12 years of extended supervision plus three years of probation.

Speaker 3 So 15 years, it's a huge amount of time to have a cop looking over your shoulder.

Speaker 3 Still, when Carlson called me from the jail phone right after, he was elated, mostly because of the respect that the judge had shown him.

Speaker 9 At the end, he called me a fine young man, and honestly, it wouldn't matter what sentence he gave me, that meant a lot to me.

Speaker 9 I think that throughout all of this, that's all I've been looking for: just for people to see that I've meant well and that I went down the wrong road.

Speaker 3 Dave Carlson walks out of jail, a free man, on December 30th, 2015. He moves into an apartment his grandma has rented for him.
He hunkers down. I called him up two weeks after he'd moved in.

Speaker 10 It was like shell shock at first.

Speaker 9 The first couple of days were really bad. It took about a week before I could get my bearings and stuff, just trying to act like I'm back in the world and life is life now, you know.

Speaker 3 In a way, even though he's been home from war for seven and a half years at this point, it's almost like his first real re-entry to the country coming home because he's been in prisons or institutions for a lot of that time.

Speaker 9 The biggest thing is just trying to

Speaker 9 keep a middle ground rather than trying to race too far ahead too quick, you know?

Speaker 3 And I checked in on again a couple of months later. Yeah, you sounded good.

Speaker 6 Hey.

Speaker 3 Hey, so how you been?

Speaker 10 Not bad. Just leaving the gym right now.

Speaker 8 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 10 Headed to the the other gym.

Speaker 3 He tells me he's been exercising like crazy to keep busy and working as a trainer at two gyms. And he's met someone.

Speaker 10 I'm kind of dating a female that

Speaker 5 she does CrossFit now, but she also is a personal trainer at the gym that I work at.

Speaker 10 Just basically, it's nice.

Speaker 5 It's nothing super serious.

Speaker 10 It's just we do a lot of workouts together and stuff.

Speaker 3 That girl, her name's Alicia.

Speaker 11 I was coaching a boot camp class at a boxing gym and I will never forget the day that he walked into this gym and I was actually married at the time when he when we met um

Speaker 11 and we were I was struggling in that marriage at the time but he so he walks into this boxing gym and he had this he had on high top Jordan tennis shoes a sweat like track suit almost thing, like sweatpants.

Speaker 11 And then he always wore like a tight-fitting,

Speaker 8 like

Speaker 11 they wore it in boxing to make him sweat more, but it was like a tight-fitting, wicking kind of shirt.

Speaker 11 And it would be tucked into his sweatpants and just serious, like the most serious person I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 Alicia at first doesn't like him. She thinks he's kind of an arrogant chump who acts like he owns this gym, but there is this competitive energy between them, a way they both push out this gym vibe?

Speaker 3 And one day they actually have it out?

Speaker 11 I'm not joking when I say this workout was like a deadly workout. It was just him and I in the gym.
And I think it was like we both saw a push in each other. Like,

Speaker 11 you know, I'm not backing down, you're not backing down. And I think that workout meant a lot to both of us in terms of like a partner.

Speaker 11 or like seeing someone who has that ability and that like mental toughness to push through something that was miserable. That was the first thing that we had gone through or did it together.

Speaker 3 And, you know, in the months ahead, Alicia gets divorced. They move in together.
And she starts to realize what she is getting herself into.

Speaker 11 I was like, holy shit. I looked up his record and was like, oh my gosh, my dad is going to like kill me.

Speaker 3 But she says it was like they were both starting from nothing.

Speaker 8 And they're in love.

Speaker 3 Both of them are thinking about going back to school and a job outside training at the gym. Things go really fast, maybe too fast.
Something inside Carlson isn't keeping up.

Speaker 3 He's been out of prison for about a year when Alicia says he starts to slip.

Speaker 11 I do like to get a cocktail sometimes at dinner, and I'd always ask, would you care if I'd order a drink with dinner? And he never would care. But then

Speaker 11 we were at dinner and he was like, well, I think I'm going to get a drink with you.

Speaker 3 And what comes next, according to Alicia, is a year and a half of insanity. This kind of relapse, it's pretty common.
But Carlson's on probation.

Speaker 3 He's one drunken traffic stop away from getting hauled back to prison. And amid that insanity, Carlson and Alicia, they get married and she's pregnant.
And she's committed.

Speaker 3 She doesn't want to give up on their marriage. Their son is born right in the thick of it.

Speaker 11 I had a brand new baby. David was completely out of his mind.

Speaker 3 So Dave Carlson is out of his mind. and then he outright disappears for six weeks.
Alicia tries to track him down in some pretty bad parts of town. Finally, she finds him in a hotel.

Speaker 11 They wouldn't let me have a key to the front,

Speaker 7 to his door

Speaker 11 and I don't remember the reason, but I ended up figuring out which room it was and then I

Speaker 11 like removed the screen and the window was unlocked and I ended up like scaling the side and I climbed in the window.

Speaker 8 I was sitting at a desk.

Speaker 8 I had drank alcohol and I had a pile of cocaine in front of my face, was snorting cocaine.

Speaker 3 And this is already after you've got a son.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah,

Speaker 8 that I wanted to die. I didn't want to take on my responsibility of being a dad because I knew that I was going to, I was going to suck at it and I was going to teach my kids all kinds of bad shit.

Speaker 8 So maybe, maybe my dad, it was best that he was gone, not in my life for the majority of it because like maybe i'd have just been even worse off and maybe i'm gonna do that to my kids maybe it's inevitable that that's what's gonna happen yeah i think

Speaker 8 like all of that shit was going through my head

Speaker 3 Alicia and a mutual friend lock him in their apartment and say, you're not leaving unless it's to the VA for rehab. And eventually he goes to inpatient rehab at the VA in St.
Cloud, Minnesota.

Speaker 11 It was like, I'm just going to do whatever I need to to like keep this. I want to get David like back on the rails because I feel like if I can get him help,

Speaker 11 he has so much potential. Like this is just a part of his story.
I believe that he has so much more to offer this world and he's here for a reason. Like I just have always felt that with him.

Speaker 11 Like he feels like he has a bigger purpose.

Speaker 3 You know, I was always hoping Carlson was going to make it, but I've seen lots of vets fail.

Speaker 3 The fact is, by now, we've lost four times more Iraq and Afghanistan vets to suicide than we've lost in combat. So maybe it's holding his new baby in the peace and stability of the VA hospital.

Speaker 3 Maybe it's Alicia. Maybe it's his growing sense of serving God.

Speaker 3 Most likely, it's all of that. But Dave Carlson is finally able to turn all that rage, all that power, in the right direction, a direction more suited for life outside of war.

Speaker 8 There's a quote, and I don't, I'm going to butcher it possibly, but it's about, it's a proverb, about I would rather be a

Speaker 8 warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I think that it really speaks to, for me, it speaks to being able to

Speaker 8 to defend yourself, to be able to do harm, but then having the discipline, having the empathy, having the compassion to not do it.

Speaker 3 And so that's who Dave Carlson decides he's going to be.

Speaker 3 From early in his relationship with Alicia, he talked about going to law school. Now he acts on it.
He takes the LSAT.

Speaker 11 So then it was like just little good things kept happening. Like I ended up graduating

Speaker 11 grad school, which was a huge help. We bought our first house in that time, which was

Speaker 11 really cool for both of us. And then he got into

Speaker 7 law school.

Speaker 11 And then, I mean, that was just like, whoa, like, I can't believe this is happening.

Speaker 11 That, like, you did it. You, you're doing exactly what you said you're going to do.

Speaker 3 They both felt the change. There's a new energy in the relationship.
They have another child, another boy. And for all of us, time keeps passing.
There's a pandemic.

Speaker 7 More than 4,100 people have died in New York from COVID-19 so far.

Speaker 3 And racial justice protests?

Speaker 7 There have been about 9,000 protest-related arrests in the U.S. since the death of George Floyd last week.

Speaker 3 And I was overdue for a check-in with Carlson. In March of 2021, I call him up on Zoom, which has been invented.

Speaker 5 What's up?

Speaker 6 Hey, how are you?

Speaker 12 I'm good. How about yourself?

Speaker 6 Good, good. Good to see you.

Speaker 12 You as well. A lot better set up than the jail phone.

Speaker 5 Oh, yes,

Speaker 5 yes.

Speaker 3 He's now a student at Mitchell Hamlin Law School in in St. Paul, and he's working as a paralegal on the side.
And at this point, I've been talking to Dave Carlson for years.

Speaker 6 That was a long time ago now.

Speaker 3 It feels like a long time. I don't even remember how long ago that was.

Speaker 10 Yeah, man, that was,

Speaker 4 I don't know, like six, seven years now.

Speaker 3 And he's close to graduating from law school. And at this stage, when I call to talk with him, it's not really interviews anymore.
We're just talking about life, like how we're both new fathers.

Speaker 6 I'm afraid to jaywalk, you know?

Speaker 12 Yeah, I quit chewing. I chewed.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I quit chewing. Like I was like, damn, this is a selfish ass thing to be doing.

Speaker 12 Like he turns 10 years old and I get like jaw cancer or something, you know.

Speaker 3 He and Alicia, they're making things happen. They founded a company they call We Adapt to mentor and serve the communities that Carlson escaped as a kid.
So they're working with youth.

Speaker 3 They take these young people on mountain biking trips and all sorts of physical fitness stuff, mentoring. And he knows these kids look up to him because he's strong and because he's fought at war.

Speaker 3 But he's trying to teach them a different lesson about fighting than the one he grew up with.

Speaker 8 Like, I thought then that the value was the actual violence, being able to do that violence to other people. It just needed to be deserving people that you did the violence to, which is backwards.

Speaker 8 Like,

Speaker 8 now I fully believe and know. that violence of any kind is wrong.

Speaker 8 It's the least effective way to do anything. Now, does that mean that they're just, if like you could snap your fingers and there's no violence?

Speaker 8 No, because there's still situations that I would be violent over, like my family's safety. And so you have to be able to do that, but you shouldn't want to do that.

Speaker 3 So again, he's talking about being that warrior in the garden. But it's one thing to talk about how to act.
It's different when you get put to the test. And that's what happens next.

Speaker 8 I'm yelling at her, like, stop, stop, stop. And so I go in after, like, and I'm playing in my mind.
I'm like, like, I'm literally like, like a flashback to Iraq.

Speaker 1 We'll be right back with more from the Sunday story.

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Speaker 3 So Carlson is in law school. He's a paralegal.
He's got a strong family and a growing business. And then this thing happens that could destroy it all.

Speaker 8 I'm literally just pulling in the on-ramp to Eau Claire, and I get a text.

Speaker 3 It's from a colleague. She has a client in trouble.
The client's husband is threatening to rape and kill her in front of her kids. So Carlson and his colleague rush to her house.

Speaker 8 We devise this plan of like, we tell the wife, get the kids in the vehicle.

Speaker 3 You get in the vehicle as we're driving by just pick them up out front not going into the house because carlson's got to protect himself too here he's still on probation so we pull into the driveway and then the plan goes to hell carlson's colleague jumps out of the car and heads right into the house i'm trying to yelling at her like stop stop stop

Speaker 8 and so i go in after like and i'm playing in my mind i'm like like i'm literally like My brain is now processing this as if someone has just kicked the door and I'm second man in.

Speaker 3 So imagine being Dave Carlson, who did this for two years in Iraq, amped up on adrenaline, kicking in a door and rushing in to maybe kill the people inside before they kill you. That was the mission.

Speaker 3 That was survival.

Speaker 8 So we get in.

Speaker 8 The wife is in the corner, like cowering in the corner.

Speaker 3 The husband is standing by the stairs. He's a bigger man, but Carlson is on him.

Speaker 8 He slammed into the wall. We're fighting down the fucking hallway.
And I finally get him down.

Speaker 3 Like I put my, I think I put one leg around like a hook and jiu-jitsu around his thigh but this time he's not having a ptsd flashback that he can't control he's not having a relapse in fact he's keeping it together and just using the skills he learned as a soldier i stretch out and i'm just telling him you need to relax you need to relax and he does and then it's done the guy stays down the wife and kids are safe the cops arrive carlson calls his probation officer he expects to go to jail.

Speaker 8 I go straight to the courthouse. So I went to, no, I went straight to the gas station.
I bought six hard-boiled eggs. I ate six hard-boiled eggs, went to the courthouse, and then waited.

Speaker 3 I understand everything except the eggs. Huh? Why did you eat six hard-boiled eggs?

Speaker 8 Well, because I thought I was going to be in jail.

Speaker 8 You get hungry as hell.

Speaker 8 You get hungry as hell in jail. So if I'm going to go to booking.

Speaker 3 Hard experience has told you to fill up before you go.

Speaker 8 Yeah, fill up. I thought for sure I was going to jail.

Speaker 3 Carlson knows things about jail, but this time he also knows lawyers. And when he ends up before a judge, he knows what to say.
And he doesn't go to jail. He goes home and he keeps on studying.

Speaker 3 Then the next time I call Dave Carlson, it's to plan a trip to come see him and his wife. And they're now three boys in person.
It's been almost exactly 10 years.

Speaker 3 And then I'm standing in the bleachers at Mitchell Hamlin Law School in St. Paul with his mom, Heidi and Alicia and their three boys who can't sit still.

Speaker 3 And some of his siblings and a few of his formerly incarcerated friends are sitting together.

Speaker 8 Graduates, will you please stand as you're able for the awarding of your degrees?

Speaker 3 We hear keynote speaker talk and about how far many of these graduates have traveled to get here today.

Speaker 3 And I just can't help but smile to to myself and think, I'm not sure there's anyone here who's come quite as far as Dave Carlson.

Speaker 2 David Carlson.

Speaker 3 When I started this story, I had this question. I wanted to know how Dave Carlson, how any combat vet, how anyone gets over war.

Speaker 3 Carlson went through some very dark times when he was punished for the crimes he committed with a really messed up PTSD brain. Despite this, he'll tell you he loves this country.

Speaker 3 He's proud of his service.

Speaker 3 When I went to visit him for the commencement, we sat down face to face to talk one more time.

Speaker 3 But before I could ask him my question about war, Dave Carlson did something I was not expecting. He asked me a question that's been on his mind.

Speaker 8 Why are you interested in a story like this? oh like you yeah oh

Speaker 3 i didn't really have an answer but carlson did he knew why i'd been doing this for a decade

Speaker 8 so

Speaker 8 are you familiar with the concept of an alcoholics anonymous like your recovery depends on the person like the person you work with their recovery so like your support of this person isn't just part of their recovery it's part of your recovery right just as important you're interconnected i think i think you're part of this this.

Speaker 8 You're part of this network. The same way that I'm part of your recovery, you're part of my recovery.

Speaker 3 And I saw what he meant.

Speaker 3 Dave Carlson has been part of my recovery.

Speaker 3 I want to be clear. I was a war correspondent, not a soldier.

Speaker 3 But I spent really hard years watching senseless destruction at war, and I lost people I loved.

Speaker 3 And so, for me, coming home, the best thing I could have done was to talk to Dave Carlson and other veterans. And telling their stories helped me understand what we'd all been through

Speaker 3 and make sense of it

Speaker 3 and find a new purpose back here at home.

Speaker 3 As for my question about getting past war, the answer seemed clear to me. Dave Carlson had made it.
We were sitting in his big house in Eau Claire.

Speaker 3 It's big enough for his three boys each to have their own bedrooms. There's a playground right down the street.
Carlson and Alicia seem happy. And in my mind, his 10-year odyssey is over.

Speaker 3 He's made it home.

Speaker 3 But that's not how he sees it. He says he's just keeping the wolves at bay.

Speaker 8 I mean, honestly, like, I don't think it's ever safe.

Speaker 8 But I think that if you can build the community that you have, like the network that you have for support, and then that network is stable, I think that then maybe you can relax a certain amount because somebody's got your six, right?

Speaker 8 You got the 360-degree perimeter of security.

Speaker 8 And just right now, I think that I'm trying to tighten up my portion, my sector of fire, so that, like, when I do relax, you know, I can just enjoy those relationships and that my family can, you know, thrive without there being some impending danger looming just ahead.

Speaker 3 So that's the mission for Dave Carlson. But still, I hope that sometime, maybe sometime, he can let his guard down and even relax and look back on what he's done and feel loved

Speaker 3 and feel proud.

Speaker 3 He's earned it.

Speaker 3 He called me up just the other day. He passed the bar.
Dave Carlson is now a practicing attorney.

Speaker 1 You can hear more of Quill Lawrence's reporting on veterans at mpr.org.

Speaker 1 If you or someone you know may be considering suicide or is in crisis, call or text 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. Press one if you're a veteran.

Speaker 1 This Sunday story series was produced by Andrew Mambo. It was edited by Ginny Schmidt and Andrew Sussman.
It was fact-checked by Sarah Knight. Quasi Lee mastered the episodes.

Speaker 1 Original music for this series composed by Tim Lawrence and performed by Quill and his brother Tim.

Speaker 1 A special thanks to Louise Treyas, Bruce Auster, and the many others who generously provided feedback and assistance. The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan and Liana Simstrom.

Speaker 1 Our intern is Thomas Coltrain. Irene Naguchi is our executive producer.
I'm Aisha Roscoe. Up First is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week.

Speaker 1 Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

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