Alternate Realities

Speaker 1 I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. Since the COVID pandemic, lots of conspiracy theories have been floating around the internet.

Speaker 1 For some, these ideas and the conspiracy thinking that fuels them may not have had much of an impact, but for others, they can feel urgent and personal.

Speaker 1 This is the case for journalist Zach Mack. Mack's father holds a number of conspiratorial views.

Speaker 1 He believes, among other things, that a shadowy cabal secretly runs the world, a group he calls the Globalists.

Speaker 1 Last year, as Zach tried to make sense of his dad's beliefs, he began recording their conversations with his dad's permission, of course.

Speaker 1 Here's a moment from one conversation in which Zach's dad urges Zach to start stockpiling emergency supplies.

Speaker 2 So you really want to store up two months worth of food and water because they probably won't be able to pump water throughout the city because that's all controlled by computers and electronics.

Speaker 2 And the EMP is going to shut down everything electronic. I know, I know it sounds like conspiracy theory, but they're going to do this.
This is what they're planning.

Speaker 2 I just want to have you be prepared, okay?

Speaker 1 Today on the Sunday story, a look at what happens to one family in this age of misinformation and conspiracy theories. A conversation with reporter Zach Mack when we return.

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Speaker 1 We're back with a Sunday story and reporter Zach Mack, who spent the last year documenting his father's conspiratorial thinking and its effect on his family.

Speaker 1 Mac says his goal was to bring his father, quote, back to reality. He turned his reporting into a new series called Alternate Realities for NPR's embedded podcast.
Zach Mack joins us now.

Speaker 1 Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 5 Hello, Aisha. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 So to start, you know, can you tell me a little bit about your family? Like, what was it like growing up for you?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so I grew up in the East Bay, like San Francisco Bay Area, right next to Berkeley, Oakland. Very middle class, me, mom, sister, public schools.

Speaker 5 I guess one of the wrinkles in my upbringing is that my mom is a liberal Jewish woman and my dad is a increasingly conservative Christian.

Speaker 5 So growing up, I went to both temple and church, and my parents always sort of had very differing ideologies about the world.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So when did you feel like your dad was starting to become maybe a different person than the person that you knew? Like, what did that look like?

Speaker 5 So growing up, he never really talked about politics. He never really expressed much interest in them.

Speaker 5 But I did know that he was always sort of skeptical about vaccines. I did know that he hated the Clintons and that he generally voted Republican.
And then I think around 2019, he got an iPad.

Speaker 5 And I specifically remember in 2019, him trying to tell me that Mark Zuckerberg wasn't really the creator of Facebook, that the government was really behind Facebook.

Speaker 5 And then once the pandemic hit, it was like really starting up with the Bill Gates conspiracies and vaccines and all that stuff. I think is when things really started to change.

Speaker 1 And then it came to like a turning point, right?

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah. So a year ago, we sort of had a big family blowout over Christmas.
Things were not going very well within the family. And shortly after that, I confronted him about some of his beliefs.

Speaker 5 And I said, hey, I think you're being radicalized online.

Speaker 5 And his response to that was to send me a list of 10 predictions that he said would all take place sometime in 2024 and challenge me to a bet for $10,000 that all 10 of these predictions would happen within the year.

Speaker 5 And when they do, I will see once and for all that he's right.

Speaker 6 When all these things happen,

Speaker 6 then you will realize that I'm not as big a crackpot as you think I am. And that these are not conspiracy theories.
These are reality.

Speaker 5 He had outlined all of these predictions, and it was all sort of pointing to some massive government upheaval that he thought was going to take place sometime in 2024.

Speaker 5 You know, it was like Trump was going to be reinstated without an election.

Speaker 5 People like Joe Biden, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi would all be convicted of treason,

Speaker 5 that our country would come under martial law. It was all these like very politically apocalyptic type events that he thought would be taking place within the year.

Speaker 1 But was this in line with what you had been hearing from your dad? Like, did you have a sense of like where he was getting these ideas from?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so he got into during the pandemic, he got into these like self-proclaimed prophets online and he had he had really

Speaker 5 glommed onto this woman named Julie Green.

Speaker 5 And she was saying all this stuff about, you know, government upheaval and all these, you know, people will be going down for treason and martial law and that there'd be, you know,

Speaker 5 EMP blackouts throughout the country, just

Speaker 5 all this stuff.

Speaker 7 I am the great revealer.

Speaker 5 Meet Julie Green. my father's preferred prophet.

Speaker 7 This is a prophetic word. I'm very excited to give this one.
It's It's just the authoritative power of God coming through me.

Speaker 5 She's a blonde, middle-aged pastor.

Speaker 7 A great fall is coming. A fall of a global cabal.

Speaker 5 A great. She sits in an office chair in a drab-looking room and rattles off a lot of prophecies.

Speaker 7 My children, 2024 will be a year like no other.

Speaker 5 She's part of a growing movement within Christianity that emphasizes spiritual warfare and politics.

Speaker 7 And God's saying this. Don't put up with this anymore.
Global globalism, the elites, global control.

Speaker 5 Dad told me he found her a couple years ago and watches her three to four times a week.

Speaker 7 Watch you, enemies of Almighty God. Overthrow of a rogue government.
Obama, the Clinton. Every stolen election will be overturned.
I am stopping their ultimate terrorist attack.

Speaker 7 that would bring in martial law and complete shutdown of society as a whole.

Speaker 1 So, you know, well, I know about prophets, and I've definitely seen people prophesize in my life. And I mean, in general, with prophets, you always got to check the record.

Speaker 1 Like, do they, are their prophecies correct?

Speaker 1 It sounds like your dad might have been hearing things that aligned with his view of the world,

Speaker 1 maybe

Speaker 1 in a way that's just kind of stretched beyond reality.

Speaker 1 What has your dad said that resonates with him about these sorts of prophecies?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so this all sort of comes through his faith and his understanding of faith.

Speaker 5 And he believes deeply now and in prophets and just the understanding that God is continuing to speak through people through prophets the way he did in the Old Testament, right?

Speaker 5 And his belief through prophets comes through that. He explained it to me once.

Speaker 6 It's kind of like the old saying is

Speaker 6 seeing is believing.

Speaker 6 But in the spiritual world, it's just the opposite.

Speaker 6 And by that, I mean, you have to believe it first in order to see it manifest.

Speaker 1 This all seems so personal and really, you know, just possibly destructive to your family. So Why did they agree to be a part of this project?

Speaker 5 Things with the family had already become so strained that we we were we were in a tough spot when when all of this started

Speaker 5 and i think for my dad when i when i first posed the the idea when right when he sent me the the bet of and his predictions i said you know i would like to interview you over the course of the year and and maybe maybe i could turn this into a podcast

Speaker 5 about how the year went. And he was excited.
First of all, he thought he was going to be right about everything.

Speaker 5 So I think he was sort of excited to share that news and prove me wrong in a public way. So my dad was excited and has been supportive throughout the process.

Speaker 5 And my mom and sister, they were also supportive

Speaker 5 because I think they just felt like things had gotten so bad,

Speaker 5 this couldn't really make things worse. And maybe it could help, right? Maybe it could help him.
see himself differently and also sort of be held accountable with these beliefs, right?

Speaker 5 Now he was on the hook. This stuff had to come true by the end of 2024, or he was going to be wrong.
He was going to lose the bet.

Speaker 5 So it sort of was like a Hail Mary play at the end of the game to one last chance to try to salvage the family and see if we could change his mind about some of this stuff.

Speaker 1 And there had been difficulties between your mom and your dad and your sister and your dad, like on their own, right?

Speaker 5 Yeah, there's been quite a bit of difficulties within the family. Obviously, just

Speaker 5 the differing beliefs between my mom and father, different ideologies has always been a point of tension within the family.

Speaker 5 But as he has gotten increasingly into conspiracy theories, that's really been hard for my mom. She just does not buy into any of this stuff.

Speaker 5 So that's been really difficult to sort of see her husband really not share the same reality as her. And then my sister is dealing with a little bit of a different conflict, which is

Speaker 5 she is queer and she came out to him a couple of years ago and that just did not go well. He's not been particularly supportive of her sexuality.

Speaker 5 And so that has just been a great point of tension in the family as well.

Speaker 1 I can understand how having a partner who does not share your reality would be very straining for a marriage. But your parents have been together a long time, right? So what is your mom saying?

Speaker 5 Yeah, they've been together for 40 years, and it has just, it has gotten really hard for her.

Speaker 5 I think she's put up with a lot over the years and now it's sort of starting to reach a breaking point for her.

Speaker 8 It's my wishful thinking that he will realize, if he steps back and looks at the whole picture, that he's not grounded in any reality,

Speaker 8 and that he'll have an awakening,

Speaker 8 and I will have a marriage and a family.

Speaker 1 That sounds

Speaker 1 so difficult and so hard, um,

Speaker 1 and so personal.

Speaker 1 Was there a point

Speaker 3 where

Speaker 1 given how fragile your family was,

Speaker 1 you considered dropping this project or talking through

Speaker 1 maybe some other measures for reconciliation?

Speaker 5 I've wrestled with it from day one, whether or not this is a good idea.

Speaker 5 I wish I could tell you that I'm absolutely positive that it still is,

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 I thought that it was a story that would really resonate with people.

Speaker 5 I thought that my situation in a lot of ways was not unique, and that families all across the country are sort of experiencing something similar.

Speaker 5 That conspiracy theories have just become so rampant and pervasive in society, misinformation, all that stuff.

Speaker 5 So, I thought a lot of people would connect to it. And, you know, throughout the process, I've just had the full support of my family.
All of them participated. At no point did anyone

Speaker 5 back out or say you shouldn't do this. Everyone has been supportive, and so that's helped quite a bit.

Speaker 5 But yeah, it's tough. I'm not used to making personal stories, I'm not used to reporting on my own family.

Speaker 5 It has been a challenging experience.

Speaker 1 When we come back, 2024 comes to an end, and with it, Zach and his dad check the list after their year-long bet.

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Speaker 1 We're back with the Sunday story, and we're talking to reporter Zach Mack about the impact conspiracy theories have had on his father and what that has meant for his whole family.

Speaker 1 So, Zach, at the end of the year, obviously, none of the things on your dad's list came to pass.

Speaker 1 It was a moment you had been waiting for and, you know, hoping it would bring a moment of realization for your dad.

Speaker 1 So, So what happened?

Speaker 5 Well, when we first made the bet, my dad made me promise that at the end, I would say,

Speaker 5 once he had won and all these things happened, that I would say,

Speaker 5 wow, dad, you were right and I was wrong. And I said, okay.

Speaker 5 But you have to say that to me if I'm right. And he agreed to that.
So at the end of the year, when I was 10 and oh and he was over 10 on his predictions,

Speaker 5 obviously I made him say that back to me.

Speaker 3 Okay. All right.

Speaker 6 So I'm going to say to you sincerely and honestly and heartfelt that, wow, Zach, I was wrong. And you were correct.

Speaker 6 Thank you.

Speaker 5 I wish I could tell you that dad changed his mind and that the family was able to heal. However, you're really prefacing that.

Speaker 6 Yes. Because, however, just because this has not happened in 2024 doesn't make any of these less valid

Speaker 6 or less real.

Speaker 6 I guarantee you, you will see by the end of 2025 that all 10 of these have legs.

Speaker 6 And I still am 100% positive that all these are true.

Speaker 5 So your explanation for why these things did not yet come to pass is that

Speaker 5 you just got the timeline wrong.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 5 Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, dad turned to the failed prophecy playbook. He blamed it on the timeline.

Speaker 5 We were right back where we started. You still believe what you believe,

Speaker 5 and I still believe that that's false.

Speaker 3 Correct.

Speaker 5 Dad's not changing. It's not the outcome I was hoping for, but here we are.
So now what?

Speaker 5 What happens to Kira? What happens to mom? And where does that leave me?

Speaker 5 The bet was over, but we still needed to assess assess the damage and see if dad was willing to take any steps towards repair.

Speaker 5 So, as you can see,

Speaker 5 even though he lost and acknowledged that he lost, he still is not coming away from these beliefs. He still thinks that he's correct and that these things will just happen later on.

Speaker 5 This is the thing that happens.

Speaker 5 I read a lot of research and books about these types of doomsday cults or prophets or big predictions. And when they inevitably don't happen,

Speaker 5 the excuse is often, oh, we just got the timeline wrong and it's just going to happen next year or in two years or however long.

Speaker 5 But yeah, you can see that he's not backing away from any of this stuff, which, you know, was disappointing.

Speaker 5 It's really unfortunate. And it's going to cause continued problems for the family.

Speaker 1 Well, I guess

Speaker 1 you and your dad were able to have these conversations and kind of figure out at least some sort of coexisting. But how about, you know, your sister and your mother?

Speaker 1 How have they been grappling with, because there wasn't some aha moment and he said, oh, I was totally wrong, which generally doesn't happen, right?

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 how are your mother and sister grappling with this?

Speaker 5 They have both made the decision to

Speaker 5 back further and further away from him, which feels like a natural consequence of his actions and his beliefs.

Speaker 5 You know, my sister and dad are not really speaking at the moment. And my mom

Speaker 5 moved into a different bedroom. You know, she's been sleeping in a different bedroom and now they are in the process of getting separated.

Speaker 5 40 years of marriage and she's backing away and my sister is backing away. And yeah, that's the state of things at the moment.

Speaker 1 And what is your dad

Speaker 1 saying about this?

Speaker 5 He's struggling to understand how we got here himself. And he feels like we are being very judgmental of him and his beliefs.

Speaker 6 All three of you are judging me very harshly.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 that's what's causing the rift.

Speaker 6 I can accept you and love you and have

Speaker 6 my beliefs and accept your beliefs.

Speaker 6 You can't accept my beliefs without judging me.

Speaker 1 So your dad is saying that you are not able to accept his beliefs without judging him.

Speaker 1 How do you respond to that?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think it's... It's not just as simple as we're judging him for his beliefs.
We're also judging him for his actions.

Speaker 5 And some of the actions that come along with these beliefs are things like, you know, he's been hoarding survivalist supplies. He's been, you know, there's several generators in my parents' home now.

Speaker 5 And he's moved some of their money without consulting my mom into things like precious metals because he thinks the banks are going to collapse.

Speaker 5 So some of this stuff comes along with real actions, and she feels like she can't trust this person.

Speaker 5 And there's also just

Speaker 5 the real fundamental differing of reality and

Speaker 5 sort of their inability to exist in the same reality. And I understand

Speaker 5 why you would want to back away from a person who you have nothing in common with about the way you see the world.

Speaker 5 It doesn't mean we don't love him. It doesn't mean we don't care about him.

Speaker 5 But I do think there just got to be a breaking point.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 you set out to win a bet, and in the process,

Speaker 1 you hope that your dad would see the light.

Speaker 1 But this story

Speaker 1 really ends where it began,

Speaker 1 which is with a family that's been torn apart by a father's beliefs. What are you hoping that the audience walks away feeling?

Speaker 5 I think for people hearing this, I would hope that if they're going through something similar, if they know someone in this situation, that this show helps their ability to

Speaker 5 understand

Speaker 5 what's happening in the world, what's happening with people who have gotten caught up in some of these ideas, learn how to talk to them a little differently or understand them a little bit better, to be curious, to ask questions, that it doesn't always have to be an argument.

Speaker 5 But also, that

Speaker 5 there does need to be accountability for beliefs and actions as well. But this show was made with as much love as I could put into it.

Speaker 1 And I think that's definitely felt in this conversation and in the podcast, the love that you have for your father and that he has for you.

Speaker 1 Zach, thank you so much for bringing this really tough story, but a real story that a lot of people are going through. And thank you for sharing that.
And thank you to your family for sharing that.

Speaker 5 Yeah, thank you so much. I hope people check out the show.

Speaker 1 That's reporter Zach Mack. His new series, Alternate Realities, is out now in the embedded podcast feed.
You can hear this series wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 1 This episode of the Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo and was edited by Jenny Schmidt and Liana Simstrom. The mix engineer for this episode was Jimmy Keeley.

Speaker 1 The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yan. Our executive producer is Irene Naguchi.

Speaker 1 We always love hearing from you, so feel free to reach out to us at the SundayStory at npr.org. I'm Aisha Roscoe.
Up First is back in your feet tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week.

Speaker 1 Until then, enjoy the rest of your weekend.

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