The Future of Ukraine ... and a US Consumer Agency. More on Black Hawk Crash

Speaker 1 World leaders meet in Munich to discuss the fate of Ukraine.

Speaker 2 Now that President Trump has abruptly changed U.S. foreign policy toward that country's war with Russia.

Speaker 1 I'm Aisha Roska.

Speaker 2 And I'm Scott Simon, and this is up first from NPR News.

Speaker 2 Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky calls for security guarantees in any peace agreement. Right now, Ukraine's army, supported by global aid, thank you so much, is holding back Russia.

Speaker 2 But if not us, then who will stop them? We'll have more on that.

Speaker 1 Plus a tumultuous week at a federal consumer protection agency.

Speaker 2 And more on last month's fatal plane crash outside of Washington, D.C.

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Speaker 2 President Trump has called for a speedy end to Russia's war in Ukraine.

Speaker 1 And is pressing Zelensky for concessions.

Speaker 2 NPR's Ukraine correspondent Joanna Kakisis joins us from Kyiv. Joanna, thanks for being with us.

Speaker 7 Thanks for having me, Scott.

Speaker 2 And this has been a very important few days, the security conference in Munich, hasn't it, for Ukraine?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Scott, it's given Zelensky an opportunity to publicly advocate for his country, surrounded by European allies who want to see Ukraine in the strongest possible position going into any negotiations to end the war.

Speaker 7 And Scott, this is important because the U.S., Ukraine's strongest single ally, is now speaking directly to Russia, the country that invaded Ukraine and continues to attack it.

Speaker 7 President Trump says he plans to visit Russia.

Speaker 7 His Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, has poured cold water on two of Ukraine's most important goals, joining NATO and getting back all of its territory occupied by Russia.

Speaker 7 And these developments have really unsettled Ukrainians. I've spoken to many who say they feel like the U.S., the country they most admire for its democratic values, is betraying them.

Speaker 2 And what's President Zelensky's response been?

Speaker 7 Well, Zelensky admitted that he has a lot of work to do to convince President Trump and his team that Russia is dangerous.

Speaker 7 Speaking in Munich today, Zelensky said he will not give up pushing for Ukraine to join NATO.

Speaker 7 He sees this Western alliance as Ukraine's strongest security guarantee against Russia, though he did question why NATO is so cautious around Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Speaker 2 Right now, the most influential member of NATO seems to be Putin

Speaker 2 because his whims have the power to block NATO decisions.

Speaker 2 And that's despite the fact that it was Ukraine's army that stopped Russia, not a NATO country.

Speaker 7 Now, the U.S. and other NATO member states are cautious about Moscow because they don't want this war to escalate.
Russia is indeed a nuclear power.

Speaker 7 So Zelensky has tried to use the moment as a call for unity in Europe.

Speaker 2 And why is unity in Europe such an important theme for Mr. Zelensky?

Speaker 7 Well, you know, Ukraine is in talks to be a European Union member state.

Speaker 7 Zelensky wants to tie the EU's fate with Ukraine's, reminding Europeans that it's Ukraine's army that's holding back Russian troops from further aggression into Europe.

Speaker 7 And he told them, look, Russia takes advantage of perceived weakness, and Europeans must be strong and united.

Speaker 7 Zelensky echoed President Trump's Trump's call for Europe to take the lead in its own security.

Speaker 2 Europe must decide its own future.

Speaker 2 We need confidence in our own strengths so that others have no choice but to respect Europe's power. And without the European army, that is impossible.

Speaker 7 Now, European army is not something that can be pulled together very quickly, of course.

Speaker 7 And, you know, negotiations are moving very quickly. Talks about how to end this war, this three-year war, are set to continue next week when the U.S.

Speaker 7 Special Envoy to Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, is expected in Ukraine.

Speaker 2 And here's Joanna Kakissas in Kyiv. Joanna, thanks so much for being with us.

Speaker 7 You're welcome, Scott.

Speaker 1 The Trump administration continues its efforts to shrink the federal workforce.

Speaker 2 This past week, it has taken aim at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

Speaker 1 That's an agency set up after the 2008 financial crisis to make sure banks stick to rules about credit cards, home loans, and other forms of debt.

Speaker 2 And Pierre's Laurel Walmsley has been following all the twists and turns at the Bureau. Laurel, thanks for being with us.

Speaker 6 Hey there, Scott.

Speaker 2 Catch us up. What's been happening with this agency?

Speaker 6 Well, there's been a lot of layoffs this week. That's part of Trump's plan to massively reduce the federal workforce.
At CFPB, some 150 employees lost their jobs. That's about 9% of the staff.

Speaker 6 Those cuts were largely folks who'd been at the Bureau for less than four years.

Speaker 6 One of the employees who lost her job this week was Johanna Hickman, who was an attorney in the Bureau's enforcement division. She received her termination notice at 9 p.m.
on Tuesday.

Speaker 6 And because her work email had already been turned off, it came to her personal email.

Speaker 9 You know, it's heartbreaking.

Speaker 10 I think we do exceptional work. at the Bureau, and I have been honored to serve in this role for the last, you know, over a year and a half.

Speaker 10 I expected to be here for another 15 years, and it's shocking, It's unlawful, for one thing, and extraordinarily disappointing.

Speaker 6 And right now, essentially, all of CFPB's work has been halted. Employees have been locked out of the building and told they can't do any work.

Speaker 6 And Elon Musk's team, meanwhile, has been given access to the building and to its systems.

Speaker 2 And where does that leave events now this weekend?

Speaker 6 Well, staff are bracing for even further cuts. According to a legal complaint by CFPB's union, they're expecting that perhaps 95% of all employees could be fired.

Speaker 6 A reporter asked President Trump on Monday whether his goal was to have CFPB totally eliminated, and Trump said yes.

Speaker 6 But for now, a federal judge ruled yesterday that they can't conduct layoffs at CFPB at least through March 3rd when a hearing is scheduled, and they can't delete any agency data either.

Speaker 2 Laura remind us, the Bureau was created in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis. But what does it do?

Speaker 6 That's right. That's when millions of Americans lost their homes due to lax lending standards, and it brought the global economy tumbling with it.

Speaker 6 The Dodd-Frank Act established the Bureau to prevent such a disaster from happening again.

Speaker 6 At a high level, what the Bureau is supposed to do is that it's been tasked by Congress to regulate consumer financial products and services, like credit cards, mortgages, et cetera.

Speaker 6 So consumer protection responsibilities are now unified under one agency that's tacked with being on the side of the consumer against big banks and financial services companies.

Speaker 6 And it's really done a lot. I mean, just in recent months, it's made rules capping credit card late fees and overdraft fees.

Speaker 6 It sued the payment app Zell and the banks that operate it, saying they didn't protect consumers from fraud.

Speaker 6 And it sued Capital One for advertising a high-yield checking account that paid close to zero in interest.

Speaker 2 Why has the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau become such a target for some now?

Speaker 6 Well, all those actions I just mentioned have made it unpopular with some Republicans, as well as big banks and Silicon Valley.

Speaker 6 They say the Bureau is too heavy-handed in its regulation, and they argue it's overstepped its authority. And you know, if it wasn't so politicized, CFPB would be an unlikely target for cost cutting.

Speaker 6 Since its launch in 2011, it's returned more than $21 billion to Americans by means such as returning fees, canceling debt, reducing loans.

Speaker 6 And it's done that on a pretty small budget for a federal agency.

Speaker 2 What kind of opposition against this is going on now?

Speaker 6 Yeah, there's a lot of legal action happening against these moves, as there is with other actions that Trump has taken.

Speaker 6 A union representing CFPB employees says the stop work order is unlawful, and it filed a second suit, arguing that Musk's team's access to CFPB systems violates the Privacy Act.

Speaker 6 A key idea, they're arguing, is the executive branch can't just get rid of an agency created by Congress with all the work it's required to do.

Speaker 6 So a lot of this is going to play out in court, but for now, there's just no real financial cop looking out for consumers in this country.

Speaker 2 And Paris Royal Walmsley, thank you so much for being with us. Take care.

Speaker 6 You're welcome, Scott.

Speaker 1 Members of the National Transportation Safety Board have been sorting through black box data for the past two weeks.

Speaker 2 They're trying to figure out why a Black Hawk military military helicopter crashed into a commercial jet above the Potomac River two weeks ago. 67 people were killed.

Speaker 1 Now investigators say the helicopter's pilots may not have heard a critical instruction from air traffic control.

Speaker 2 Aviation reporter David Schaper joins us now. David, thanks for being with us.

Speaker 8 My pleasure, Scott.

Speaker 2 I gather this latest information offers some detail on what

Speaker 2 the Black Hawk helicopter pilots may not have heard.

Speaker 8 Right. The National Transportation Safety Board investigators outlined the exact paths both aircraft were flying that Wednesday night.

Speaker 8 One important thing to note about aviation, which is the safest mode of transportation, is that even experienced, skilled pilots often undergo training and retraining and they are tested on their skills.

Speaker 8 So the Black Hawk helicopter was on what they call a check ride, in which the crew is being tested on their use of night vision goggles and flying by instruments.

Speaker 8 And they were flying along this familiar corridor along the Potomac while the American Airlines CRJ regional jet was approaching for a landing at Reagan National Airport.

Speaker 8 Investigators say cockpit voice recordings indicate that an air traffic controller seemed concerned that the helicopter was flying toward the path of the incoming plane and asked the Blackhawk pilots to fly behind it.

Speaker 8 Here's NTSB chair Jennifer Homindy.

Speaker 9 So the instructions from ATC were to pass behind the CRJ.

Speaker 9 That transmission

Speaker 9 was interrupted, It was stepped on.

Speaker 8 Homity says the mic in the helicopter cockpit was keyed open for just a second or two, but the pilots may have missed the key words passed behind the.

Speaker 8 That's critical instruction that had the pilots actually heard and followed, this disaster might have been averted.

Speaker 2 We've also heard that the helicopter may have been flying too high at an altitude that put it near the path of the plane. Any new information on that?

Speaker 8 Yes, you know, Hamidi says the helicopter pilots might not have been receiving correct information about their exact altitude.

Speaker 8 Hamity says a radio altimeter, which uses radio waves bounced off the ground to measure the aircraft's altitude and information gleaned from a flight data recorder were in conflict and showing different altitudes.

Speaker 9 We are looking at the possibility of there may be bad data.

Speaker 9 We're looking at were they seeing something different in the cockpit that differs from the FDR data, which was radio altimeter?

Speaker 8 Amandy says it's still not clear why there was erroneous or conflicting data, and the investigation is still in its early stages, but she says this is definitely something the NTSB is focusing on.

Speaker 2 We've also heard about the speculation that the two pilots just may not have seen each other's aircraft.

Speaker 2 The crew of the helicopter in particular may have mistaken another plane for the one into which they crashed. What do investigators say about that now?

Speaker 8 Well, investigators did say that the crew of the American jet did pull up aggressively just before the impact, indicating that they likely saw the helicopter at the very last moment.

Speaker 8 In addition, they did confirm the Black Hawk crew was likely wearing night vision goggles, and they acknowledged there is some concern in an area with a lot of aircraft lights and city lights that it could have been difficult to see the airplane.

Speaker 8 Chair Hamindy says the NDSB will conduct a visibility study to try to determine what the pilots could and could not see.

Speaker 2 Aviation reporter David Shaper, thanks so much.

Speaker 8 You're welcome, Scott.

Speaker 1 And that's up first for Saturday, February 15th. I'm Aisha Roscoe.

Speaker 2 And I'm Scott Simon.

Speaker 1 This podcast was produced by Martin Patience with help from Fernando Naro, Samantha Balaban, Elena Twark, and Gabe O'Connor.

Speaker 2 Our director, director, director is Danny Hensel.

Speaker 1 He keeps us on track. Our editors were Miguel Macias, Dee Parvaz, Nick Spicer, Raphael Nah, Russell Lewis, and Matthew Sherman.

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