Ep.8: Traces of Truth - Who Killed Jennifer Judd?

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Previously, on Who Killed Jennifer Judd.

Like I said, I left anything like it.

I never thought Chuck had much to do with it.

The only person I ever saw Jeremy Jones express any sorrow for was himself.

And I think that speaks a lot about the kind of man that Jeremy Jones is.

From ID and ARC Media, I'm Sarah Kalen, and this is Who Killed Jennifer Judd.

Judd.

When I first contacted the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office, I only knew the basics of the Jennifer Judd case.

I'd listened to the Jeremy Jones confession tapes.

I knew that a friend of Jennifer's was long suspected of the murder, and I knew how Jennifer died.

That's really it.

Four Four months later, I have the complete cooperation and partnership of the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office.

I am in frequent contact with two of Jennifer's close friends and most importantly, her beloved husband, Justin Judd.

Justin, Chris, and Michelle have shared so many details about Jennifer.

She appears in my dreams frequently now, as if she's trying to help me find answers.

I see the love in Justin's face as he describes the night he met her, And I see the love Jennifer felt for Justin in the letters she wrote to him.

In a birthday card from 1989,

Hey, precious baby, you will always be that special person in my life, no matter what happens.

I love you very much and always will.

Believe me, one of these days, I will be Mrs.

Justin Judd.

I promise.

Love you much as, Jiffer D.

In a letter from May 20th, 1990, Dear Dear Justin, boy, you got it.

Another letter.

How can you get so lucky?

I mean, a girlfriend who loves to write you letters?

You probably know why I'm typing this letter.

Because I love you so much.

If I had my way, we would win the lottery and be married tomorrow.

But you know how it is.

I am ready to start setting a date and getting things ready.

Like start looking for a house, wedding date.

kids when and where, just things like that.

Hey, babe, I am ready.

I am ready to start out on our own.

It is so incredibly clear that Jennifer loved people with her whole heart, and the people around Jennifer loved her very much.

Everyone I speak with tells me that Jennifer's parents, sisters, and grandparents absolutely adored her.

I reached out to them, and they chose not to participate in the podcast.

I completely respect and understand their decision.

The sheriff called the family on my behalf to assure them that I am here with good intentions and with credentials.

I'm hoping to solve this for them, for Justin, for Jennifer, and for everyone who loved her.

In May 2024, we sent evidence to a DNA testing lab in California.

As we waited on results, I worked through the known suspects.

I was able to finally rule out Alan Redden after speaking to him.

I've been able to eliminate Chuck Chance by reviewing information that's been in the file for at least 10 years.

It's mind-blowing to me that police did not officially rule out Chuck Chance years ago.

It's pretty clear, to me, that Chuck Chance's life went downhill after police accused him of killing Jennifer.

As the case remained unsolved, people in this tight-knit community continued to suspect him.

When I call Michelle with case updates, she still brings up Chuck.

She says he was recently released from prison following a conviction unrelated to Jennifer's case.

He was immediately picked up on a different outstanding charge, so he's back in.

I gotta tell you, I feel bad for this guy.

I really do.

He did not kill Jennifer.

I'm pretty confident.

You gotta wonder if his life might have been different if the whole community didn't ostracize him for this.

Yeah, but I used to party with this guy.

I know what he's like.

He's crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

And, but the other thing with Chuck is like, even all the evidence aside, this is not a criminal mastermind, like somebody who's been able to get away with murder for 30 years.

Like, really, Chuck Chance, but we're still plugging away,

still plugging away.

Thank you for giving me an update.

Of course, I was so nervous.

I couldn't sleep, but I was so nervous.

I was like, oh gosh, you said, tell me something that I'm telling me, I want to hear.

No, no, no, no, no.

I wouldn't do that to you.

I'm not going to ambush you with with good news or bad news.

I mean, that's not true.

I might ambush with you with good news.

I might just call up one day and be like, oh my God, we got it.

But I'm not going to ambush you with bad news, I promise.

Okay.

Well, thank you for calling it.

I need to share this information with everyone.

I feel compelled to let them know that despite the KBI saying so, it was not Chuck Chance.

I know it's going to be even harder to tell Justin.

I already told Justin that the fingerprints on the knife do not match Chuck.

This didn't sway his thinking very much.

Now, I have to call him with this even more definitive information.

In the last week of June, I finally make this call.

I explain the screenshots that someone sent to Cherokee County Sheriff's Detective Joel Tabor and how they confirm that there is a full DNA profile.

I'm going to say something to you that is going to be very surprising, and it's in a way it's hard hard for me to say it to you.

They did compare it to Chuck's DNA, and it's not a match.

Really?

They've got a full profile, and these screenshots that this person sent are very blurry.

And we're trying to get the actual files.

KBI swears up and down they have sent everything.

And Joel is saying to them, no, you didn't, because we know there's a profile and we don't have the profile.

So we're still working on that.

But in the meantime, because we have now located those same pieces of of evidence, it is my hope that we can get stuff off of those same samples.

The bad news is that means KBI has had a profile for 10 years and not done anything with it.

Yeah.

I could turn out to be wrong.

It could be that they ran it in CODIS,

but, you know,

they haven't really moved beyond that.

And they've continued to allow people.

to believe that Chuck did this with 99% certainty, as they phrased it.

And they they have known since 2000 that it wasn't his fingerprints on the knife.

And now they've known since 2014 that it's not his DNA at the scene.

I've told you what I thought and why I think and stuff.

And it's still

everything he did that day makes no sense.

I know.

And there is a part of me that feels like you may never fully believe it because it's just, it's, you've spent 32 years being told by people who should know

you know some version of this is what happened

and it's very hard to unlearn that you have not done anything wrong in believing he did it you have been told that over and over and over and over and over again and of course you have your own memories from that day and stuff and you know his behavior may have been really weird but one There's no way there was more than one person at that scene.

That is not the scene of a multiple offender, even in, you know.

Like I said, it took the KBO a lot of convincing to get me to even, because

he was a friend of ours.

Well, he was a friend of hers before he was a friend of mine.

Yeah.

And all that.

And

the little things, like the phone call, him calling me and telling me that he didn't go to his sister's house, but I know he told me he went to his sister's house.

Yeah,

that one's weird.

And he knew what they just checked everything

and he knew there's a babysitter there, and he did a babysitter to verify that he was not, he did not go there to change clothes.

A little thing like that.

You know, at the house, and if he knew I was at work, why didn't he just go to my work?

He's still stopping at the house.

And if he didn't talk to anybody in the house, how did he know I was at work?

One vehicle's there, one vehicle's gone.

Newlyweds, they're probably going to that vehicle somewhere.

Him going to my work makes no sense at all.

Yeah, I don't know.

I do know that we're able to verify everything

before 10 a.m., where he says he was, like through witnesses, right?

And this is all the way back then, and I've also, you know, done.

Justin and I are on the phone for more than an hour.

We discuss case details that have not been made public and I cannot share here.

I'm torn about sharing any of this, honestly.

Because this is dredging up demons long ago buried.

How are you feeling?

I mean, this is a lot.

Oh,

I need a drink.

Yeah, me too.

Are you going to be around people tonight?

Probably not.

I don't know.

Probably

make me a margarita and go lay by the pool for a few hours and come back, crash.

I gotta get up early and work at one.

Okay.

Are you gonna be okay?

Yeah, yeah, I'm fine.

You say that, but you know I have never believed you once when you say that, right?

I've dealt with this for so dang long, and to be honest, the

worst of it was finding her.

You know, not knowing all these years, you know, it's been hard and stuff like that, but none of it's as hard as that moment.

I will never ever forget that feeling ever.

And still, I still like it.

I look back, and when the paramedics got the MQ people got there, I thought like everything's gonna be okay.

I truly cannot imagine.

I appreciate you being so open.

All right, well, I might check on you later.

Okay.

I appreciate that.

I say goodbye for now.

I promise him I'll be in touch as soon as I hear anything about the DNA or if anything else comes up.

Until then, I'm turning my focus back to the one suspect still on my list: Jeremy Jones.

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Thumbtack presents project paralysis.

I was cornered.

Sweat gathered above my furrowed brow and my mind was racing.

I wondered who would be left standing when the droplets fell.

Me or the clawed sink.

Drain cleaner and pipe snake clenched in my weary fist.

I stepped toward the sink and then...

Wait, why am I stressing?

I have thumbtack.

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Thumbtack knows homes.

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Picture yourself alone in the middle of nowhere, and there's somebody following you.

He went on his way, always so thought, and then we went on ours.

But in reality, he really followed us up there.

On Deadly Nightmares, the true crime podcast from ID, listen to real stories of ordinary people stalked by serial killers and attackers.

Listen to Deadly Nightmares on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For years, the only way to tie Jones to this case was his own confession.

The same is true for the murder of Paula Barnett's sister, Doris Harris, and Doris' boyfriend, Danny Oakley.

Same too for the murder of Danny and Kathy Freeman and the disappearance of their daughter, Ashley, and her friend, Laura Bible.

Another man was ultimately convicted in the Bible-Freeman case, but Laura's cousin, Lisa Bible-Broderick, isn't certain they got the right guy, or at least not the only right guy.

There's been times that I'm like, I really think we need to look at Jeremy.

Well, they tell us not to.

They tell us that there's no way it was possible.

And I'm just like, something inside me says otherwise.

I do think that he's been dismissed from a lot of things that he probably shouldn't have been.

And I just will never be convinced that Jeremy Jones is not part of many of those.

I've never understood why the Kansas Bureau of Investigation and Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation agents were so quick to deny his claims.

Neither does Lisa.

She's been in touch with me throughout my investigation into the murder of Jennifer Judd and has offered to help in any way she can.

She, as much as anyone, understands the value in vetting Jones's many claims.

There's so much closure there that could help so many people, and people deserve it.

You know, our families deserve closure.

I want to find answers for Lisa, for Paula Barnett, for Justin Judd, for Chris Hausch, Michelle McCorkle, Jennifer's family, and the family and friends of the victims of the long list of cold cases for which Jones has claimed responsibility.

It's tough to prove any link between Jones and the Bible Freeman case, the Harris Oakley case, or any others without complete access to the case files or physical evidence.

I have a lot, but I don't have anywhere near all of it for those cases.

I have a lot more to go on in Jennifer's case.

When we get DNA results, we'll definitely be comparing them to Jones.

In my opinion, it would be irresponsible to not do so.

As I wait for those results, I start comparing Jennifer's case to others that we know for certain Jones committed.

There's one in Georgia that contains an important detail.

It's the murder of 16-year-old Amanda Greenwell.

There are several similarities between the Jennifer Judd murder and the Amanda Greenwell murder.

And to be clear, there are some differences too.

But one that matches up has always been compelling to me.

Before I got the Jennifer Judd case files, I heard a lot of rumors about this case.

They're all fairly similar, give or take, a few details.

There's one detail, however, that's persistent.

In the days before her murder, Jennifer allegedly told someone about something that had happened at her new apartment, the one she moved into when she married Justin.

She said that she was home alone around midday when someone came to the door.

The person started banging and then rattling and shaking the door, apparently trying to get in.

According to the stories, it was so sudden and frightening that Jennifer hid behind the couch until the person went away.

This detail always stood out to me because in the days before her murder, Amanda Greenwell described a nearly identical incident.

In Amanda Greenwell's case, she lived with her dad.

Her dad was at work and she was home alone.

When I started investigating the Jennifer Judd case, I always asked about this, but no one could verify it.

Justin doesn't remember Jennifer saying anything like this, nor do Chris Hausch or Michelle McCorkle.

I was starting to think it was just a rumor, but then I saw it.

One witness statement, about half a page long, taken in the first 48 hours after the murder.

A witness we won't name here stated,

Jennifer told me that a man had knocked on the door of her apartment that afternoon in Baxter.

Jennifer said it scared her because he kept rattling the doorknob and she was afraid the door would come unlocked.

She told me she was so scared she just crouched down to the floor under the window and cried.

There it is in black and white in a statement taken in 1992.

Someone tried to get into Jennifer and Justin's apartment five days before she was killed.

Learning about this door rattling incident at Jennifer and Justin's apartment with its similarity to what we know Jones did in the days before killing Amanda Greenwell, I really cannot understand why KBI and OSBI didn't take Jones more seriously.

I've been going through Jones's confession tapes every few days, looking and listening for anything I might have missed or any indication as to why the KBI and OSBI agents so easily dismissed his claims.

In the tapes, I can tell that he is often full of shit.

But then there's the stories Chris Hausch verified, like the times they were out riding bikes as kids or her grandmother chasing him off her property because it was time to go home for supper.

There are also certain organic moments or comments, like this one, when Thomas's partner, KBI agent Ray London, mentions Jennifer Judd.

I think you had genuine feelings for Jennifer.

You said when you saw her picture, her wedding picture in the paper, there were feelings there.

And surely nobody knew that her death would come so soon after.

That wasn't what was supposed to happen.

And that had to tear you up inside.

That wasn't what was supposed to happen today.

Jones says, it wasn't supposed to happen that way.

He says it twice.

He speaks it naturally, from a place of memory, not imagination.

His eyes don't show any signs of processing and thinking of something to say.

He just says it.

It's full of truth as far as I can see.

Maybe not all of it, but this line.

This line is organic, and it is definitely true.

It wasn't supposed to happen like that.

It brings together seamlessly what we know academically about sexually motivated killers who stalked their victims and Jones' version of events.

It's in moments like this where I go back to like, damn, I think he did do it.

I keep searching for the moment that convinced KBI agent Larry Thomas to dismiss Jones.

But honestly, it seems like Thomas didn't need to be convinced.

He never believed Jones.

Thomas even says this to Jones as soon as he meets him.

Here's Thomas.

We're just trying to put the story together, and it's probably uncommon for two cops to come in here and try to talk you out of something.

Yeah, it's definitely uncommon for two cops to try to talk a man out of a murder confession.

Even more uncommon for them to flat out tell a man that they already have their suspect.

They just need more evidence to convict him.

Remember what Thomas said about Chuck Chance.

Our case is based on witnesses.

And there's no doubt I could probably charge Chuck Chance based on the witness information, but I don't think I can convict him.

I never find a moment when Thomas seems to believe Jones.

I asked Paul Birch if he remembers any specific moments.

Anything that Jones would say, it almost, he would try to contradict him or cut him off.

I said, you've seen the video.

And there came a point in time where he did tell basically the same story.

And there came a point in time during an interview where Thomas kind of did like a gotcha moment.

Thomas asks Jones to draw a map of Jennifer's apartment.

And Thomas like, no, you know, I know you're lying because that's not what it looks like.

He had this brochure of the layout of the various two, three bedroom apartments.

Jones didn't bend.

He's like, I'm telling you, this is what the apartments look like.

This is where our body was.

He was very specific about it.

The other KBI agent steps out of the room.

I don't know the other person's name.

He went outside for, you know, several minutes, you know, made some phone calls, I'm assuming, and come back and said that, look, at the time the murder happened, That's exactly what the apartments look like.

You know, they've been renovated since then.

Thomas is right.

The map didn't match the current layout of the apartment.

Thomas uses this as a reason to immediately dismiss Jones.

But Jones is also right.

The map he drew matched more closely to the layout of the apartment on the day Jennifer was killed.

The owners renovated the apartment in the years between the murder, which was in 1992, and this conversation, which took place in 2005.

This moment passes quickly on the tape, but it's important.

The other agent confirms that Jones' drawing matches the 1992 layout.

Still, Thomas doesn't change his stance.

He maintains that Jones is lying.

Why?

The map might have changed Thomas's assumptions.

Instead, Thomas doubled down, and it's confusing to me because when Jones drew the map, He included an obscure little utility closet in the kitchen.

He actually mentioned it specifically, like it stood out in his memory of being inside that apartment.

Justin Judd told me he doesn't know of Jones being in the apartment ever.

He also confirmed that Jones never lived in the other half of the duplex, another falsehood that has rumored its way into accepted fact in the narrative of this case.

The map that convinced Thomas that Jones was lying, it's what helped confirm for Paul Birch that Jones was telling the truth.

I don't know what more you need, especially when you have nothing else.

When they dismissed his claims, KBI agents blamed Birch and fellow Mobile County investigators.

KBI said Birch and others in Alabama fed Jones information.

I searched for this in the tapes, but I can't find any moments where Birch or his colleagues feed Jones any information.

Not one single example.

So why was Thomas so set on catching Jones in a lie?

Why not keep a more open mind?

I reached out to Larry Thomas.

We chatted for a bit.

He had some interesting stuff to say, but did not agree to speak on the record.

I'm left to speculate.

And while I don't love to do so, I have thoughts here.

Let me first explain the rest of the tapes.

Some of these many hours of confession tapes include interactions with agents from the OSBI who who were there to discuss the Bible Freeman case and the murder of Paula's sister, Doris Harris, and her boyfriend, Danny Oakley.

There's one OSBI agent who walks in and introduces himself to Jones as if they've never met.

The interaction seems faked, as though the two men have actually met before.

It's certainly possible because Jones has long claimed he had a relationship with multiple police agencies in Miami, Oklahoma.

He says someone there helped him craft his plan to flee in 2000.

He fled while out on bond on felony rape charges.

That's when he assumed the identity of John Paul Chapman.

He assumed a new identity and potentially murdered at least four more people.

Two women in Georgia, a woman in Louisiana, and at least one in Alabama.

That number could be closer to a dozen.

There is no exact count because he claims he can't remember the names of several victims in Alabama or where he disposed of their bodies.

I keep coming back to this potential relationship.

If someone in law enforcement helped Jones flee, that person could now be criminally liable in all of these subsequent murders.

This is huge.

I want to reiterate it.

If someone in law enforcement helped Jones flee, that person could be criminally liable in all of the subsequent murders Jones committed.

It's a lot of ifs, but it's important because it could explain why the police were so quick to dismiss Jones' claims.

If they accepted his claims, they, or at least one of their colleagues, could become criminally liable for the acts Jones committed while working as a criminal informant or even afterwards.

If they dismiss his claims, everyone moves on.

Everyone, except, of course, anyone who knew and loved the victims.

They are left without answers.

So, was Jones working for someone in the OSBI or even the KBI?

Did anyone in either of these agencies or any others in the region have any reason to help Jones flee?

I've reached out to Steve Nutter numerous times to discuss whether he ever did confidential informant work with Jones.

He spoke with me once many years ago, but wouldn't answer any question that might be helpful here.

He did not agree to an interview for this series.

In May 2024, one of his former colleagues did.

Hi, Chris, it's Sarah Kalen.

Hey, how are you?

I am well.

How are you doing?

This is former Ottawa County Sheriff's Office Detective Chris Morris.

Chris worked with an interagency drug task force in the early 1990s, then moved on to the district attorney's office.

We've been playing phone tag for weeks and finally connect in mid-May 2024.

I tell him why I'm investigating Jennifer's murder and why I want to speak with him.

The side note is that with Jeremy Jones, I think still being a viable suspect, he has spoken about you in some of his interview videos with the folks down in Mobile.

And so I was kind of wanting to get your take on that.

Because I actually use Jeremy as an informant.

jackpot it takes all of my energy to hide my excitement be professional sarah be professional i ask him to tell me more about jones's work as an informant

uh i think for one that i can remember that we i used him to buy a gun off of a guy by the name of harmon fenton okay subsequently was murdered a short time after that

jones bought the gun off a man named harmon fenton Chris doesn't remember what year this happened, but knows it wasn't too long afterwards that Fenton and his girlfriend, Sarah Palmer, were killed.

They were tortured and executed at gunpoint.

Jones claims responsibility for this case, saying that he did it on behalf of a drug outfit they owed money to.

One of the rumors that circulates, of course, a lot is that he was informing on multiple meth groups.

Do you think there's any validity to that?

Yeah, okay.

Chris didn't work with Jones for long.

At some point, Jones was accused of domestic violence, and by then, Chris had had enough of him.

It's a vivid and apt description.

It's great to get a first-hand account from someone who worked with Jones as an informant, but so far, Chris hasn't said anything to definitively prove my theory as it relates to these homicides.

Chris was an investigator at the DA's office when he worked with Jones.

I ask if he knows of Jones informing for anyone else, particularly anyone at the OSBI or KBI.

Jones certainly claims there was a lot more, but as I said earlier, he spouts a lot of bullshit.

As far as I know, he just does some things for me.

Chris says he really only remembers Jones buying the gun off of Harmon Fenton.

I don't remember if he did anything else.

There's another potential aspect of Jones's work as a criminal informant that I'm hoping Chris can help me sort out.

When I examine Jones's criminal record, there are a handful of times where he is charged with felony one rape, with particularly brutal rapes, and he serves no time.

So I've wondered if this was a function of his informant work.

No, I would not have used him

for something like that.

Okay.

I wouldn't have

anything that would be serious,

you know, like domestic or especially a child abuse case or rape case, right?

I wouldn't have touched him with a 10-foot pole.

I ask if he's ever heard anything about an officer helping Jones go on the run or about officers letting him off easy at times.

He says he hasn't heard rumors to this effect.

I'm not entirely sure what to think after this call.

I appreciate the confirmation that Jones worked as an informant.

That's something that almost always comes up as a theory in cases like this, but rarely ever bears fruit.

And even though I still don't have anything to prove my theory that Thomas and Nutter may have had ulterior motives in dismissing Jones, perhaps nefarious or perhaps just confirmation bias, I am still suspicious of KBI and OSBI decisions and tactics.

I might be off base.

It's not like the cops consistently let Jones off scot-free.

He got arrested over and over and over.

But then again, he never seemed to have to pay a price.

Burglary, grand theft, possession of narcotics, domestic violence, rape, rape, rape.

Repeatedly charged with first-degree felony rape, Jeremy Jones never received any sentence harsher than probation.

In 2000, he violated one of these probations when he committed another rape.

The police planned to issue a warrant for his arrest.

Before they got the chance, he fled and wasn't heard from again, at least not as Jeremy Jones, until four years later when Paul Birch caught up with him in Mobile.

I wish someone could tell me this is just a lucky coincidence, but as an investigator, I'm keenly aware that it's okay to chalk one thing up to coincidence.

When things start to pile up, we simply stop believing in random acts of the universe.

I really don't think that's what we're dealing with here.

Because there's one more thing that makes me think someone was at least somehow tipping off Jones.

It's the discovery of a fingerprint on the knife used to kill Jennifer Judd.

I think he got word somehow, either deliberately or just by chance from being around the right people, that they'd found a print and he knew it might match him.

So he fled.

I'm holding these two distinct possibilities in my head.

One, that Jones' other work as an informant led police to dismiss his claims in order to protect themselves because they realized they'd gotten way out of their depth with him.

The other, that a friend in the department tipped Jones off to the print and Jones fled.

Neither scenario looks good for local or state cops in Oklahoma.

I'll keep trying to get a KBI agent on the record to talk about Jones.

An interview could help me parse Jones' statements, but maybe I don't even need an interview.

Maybe the DNA results results will be enough to determine who killed Jennifer Judd.

Or maybe we'll get clarity from Jones himself.

In June 2024, he started calling Chris Hausch, and he has quite a lot to say.

Larry J.

Thomas is the head of the KBI.

Okay, he's come down and talk to me.

Hey, said Jeremy,

I know you did good.

I know you did good.

Pre-call from Jeremy Brian Jones.

An incarcerated individual at

Are you there, Jeremy?

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Hi.

Okay, you there?

Yeah, yeah, I'm here.

I'm here.

In June 2024, jeremy jones called chris housch he's called a handful of times since in the initial calls they talked about childhood memories on a call in early june jones dove straight into a story about how much the prison guards like him

i have so many officers here that says jeremy i wish i could get you a furlough and take you home for a weekend you know yeah i got at least 20 officers to take stand for my first character business ride you know because they're like dude i was home last night i was watching tv i told my wife my wife is saying

you want this she said he said yeah that's him but that ain't him that story is not the guy i know the guy i know is not that guy you're talking about on tv

well see that's the way i am i still think about us being little kids or in high school i am not a serial killer chris I'm not, I'm just one of them good old country boys that was out of town, got the wrong place wrong time, and I thought I could get back home to Oklahoma by saying I did something in Oklahoma.

I didn't want to be in the South.

His conviction in the Lisa Nichols murder is airtight.

He did that.

And in spite of his claims to the contrary, Jones is actually extremely smart and quite well versed in the American criminal justice system after so many years in and out of it.

He was never going to be sent back to Oklahoma, even if he claimed responsibility for crimes there when he was facing capital murder charges in another state.

And he knew that damn well.

And not to quibble over semantics, but is Oklahoma not the South?

Maybe that one is just me.

I'm literally going to go to court in June, like June 11th.

I go to court in a World 32 hearing.

90% chance I'll get a due trial.

And you're the chance I can just get lost for your girl.

I got two of the best false confessions experts.

Do you understand I get 400 hours of interrogation?

400 hours interrogation.

Every case I've ever said I did, they have completely cleared me.

Except they don't pull it on the internet.

The news media won't post that.

No, because because they just keep adding cases to you i mean it's just crazy when you go in and google your name

chris followed my advice she played dumb she pretended to believe him

my dad listen before my dad died he called miami news records okay he got miami news records to come to his house and he talked to a reporter and said mr beard I completely agree with you.

You know, your son is being cleared as a Bible family.

He's not completely completely wrong here nutter was quick to say publicly that Jones wasn't involved in that case though his repeated choice of the word cleared strikes me as very interesting well you know chuck chance just got out of prison this week he's been in mays county oh for two or three years now and they just released him he had some me and you both know he did it we all know that

You know, I mean, it was so bad there was an article about saying I lived next door to Justin Judd.

I never lived next door to Justin Judd until five years after the murder.

It's interesting to hear him speak some truth.

He didn't live next door to Justin until the mid to late 90s.

But his statements to Thomas in 2005 were pretty clear, almost to the point of being annoyed at having to explain it.

He said more than once, Chuck did not do this.

I didn't even know Justin.

I mean, I know Justin, Justin and me never really got along.

It's almost as if Jones knows what I want to ask.

Chris doesn't have to say much.

Jones just goes there.

Larry J.

Thomas is the head of the KBI.

Okay, he came down and talked to me.

He said, Jeremy, I know you didn't do it.

I know you didn't do it.

He's a very nice guy.

Literally, he has all my payments, 400 hours of payments.

I have an uncle back in the day, Bob Barrett, he was a Kansas Highway Patrol, but retired.

So he told me, he said, listen, man, Jeremy, he said, I'm going this weekend to your uncle Bob.

He said, we're going to sit down at his base and we're going to watch all these interrogation stations.

You know what I mean?

He said, man, he said, he said, he said, it was so hilarious.

He said, if you were in Kansas right now, you would need to be in jail for this case.

He says, there's no judge who has allowed any statement in there that you gave and it took 200 hours.

I thought it was 400 hours, Jeremy.

Regardless, could this uncle be the connection who helped him get away?

Jones doesn't say any more about this uncle.

Instead, he launches into a story that he claims inspired him to make all these false confessions.

I didn't see my mom six months.

There's a somebody around in the neighborhood on the roof of the 30-hour face who's going to shoot her.

All the game, this is all the trick.

They knew it and upset me.

I started crying.

They yaked my mom out, which to me,

the safest place is to keep her in a jail, right?

Right.

Maybe she's in a business.

I let her have the business, put her full care test on her, let her have my business with me in the legacy.

But no, no, it doesn't have something to do.

They knew that I would be freaked out, and I was like, I'll confess anything.

I'll confess anything.

Just let me see my mama.

Right.

You know, I was so naive, I really thought that there was really,

you know, somebody going to do something to my mom.

Man, it was just, it was a good talk, talk, banged out, just talk, bagged out.

He says that they didn't let him see his mom for six months.

Then, when he finally got to see her, three officers barged in and surrounded her.

They said there was a hit on her, and they had to take her away in order to protect her.

It's an outlandish story

because, guess what?

His visits with his mom, and brother, and girlfriend, they're all on tape too.

Paul Birch keeps his receipts.

Well, seeing like this, the stuff on, again, on TV or on Google, it looks like you and Paul are buddies.

We are not buddies.

I didn't get no mail for four months, and then one day he shows up on my door and I had 120 letters.

I had like 20 books of spans for my mom, $400 worth of money orders for

my family.

He was holding all my mail as a manipulation tactic.

It was $27.50 for a phone call to Oklahoma back then for Mobile Metro.

Okay.

He allowed me to go to his office if I would sit makeup bullshit and feed his ego.

He would sit and let me sit in his office for four or five hours at a time and do that.

Okay.

Chris asks if Jones got the stamp and the Bible she sent him years ago.

He says no.

Then he suddenly has to go.

I'll call you right back, right?

You know what I mean?

I got money on my cat angle push and then I'll take the phone call right now to do.

So,

you know,

my mom, when my mom passed away, you know, we're gonna go into that old situation next time I call you back, okay?

Okay,

your mom, I know you, I know you and your mom don't get along, you know.

And I'm gonna go ahead and get a message.

Thank you for using Securis.

Goodbye.

The caller has hung up.

Thank you for using Securis.

Goodbye.

Jones calls right back.

He talks for an hour, Chris interjecting with a question every now and then when she can squeeze a word in edgewise.

Jones says it's good to talk to her.

He talks about friends in high school and says he's surprised he doesn't hear from more of them.

That's cool.

I always thought all these people that I was friends with in high school just reach out with like love and say, man, why are you going to do it?

You know, we know you didn't do it.

Why are you making up all these lies?

We know you didn't do this.

What's going on?

Did you have a mental breakdown?

People don't understand unless you're being taken with a false confession, you don't understand what to do under extreme circumstances.

Because in your mind, you think, if I didn't do it, and I say I did it, and the technology and the way we live in this world today at the course will prove you didn't do it.

You know what I mean?

He sounds delusional.

I don't know, it's almost sad

until you remember even just the stuff we know for a fact he did.

One minute left.

Jeremy, I'm gonna have to leave to go home.

Good talking to you, Chris.

You too.

Chris is getting tired of the calls.

They're taking an emotional toll, but she's determined to keep going.

Even if he didn't kill Jennifer, there are undoubtedly open cases he could help close if he ever decides to speak honestly again.

And if he is going to do that, it will be with Chris Hausch.

Jones is still backtracking on every claim.

He's always been desperate to prevent Chris from knowing the truth about him.

He's saying he made these statements because he thought his mom was in danger.

I don't believe him, and I have the proof.

Short of another confession, however, we're currently left with one way to solve this case.

DNA.

In the last week of June, the lab technician Susanna reaches out with an update.

In an email, she cuts right to the chase.

Hi, Sarah.

As of right now, we don't have any useful results.

Damn it.

She continues.

I did blood presumptive testing on most of the items.

The ones that were negative, I did not move forward for DNA analysis.

The kitchen hand towel and bathroom towel were negative for blood, no further testing done.

The kitchen floor mat had one very weak positive stained area, so I did take that one forward for analysis, but no human DNA was detected during quantitation, so I stopped at that point in analysis to save you some money.

I did soak the keychain in MVAC buffer and filtered it and extracted the filter.

A low amount of DNA was detected at quant, so I took this sample all the way through analysis, but no DNA profile was obtained.

So while we have no usable results, I did not use anywhere near the approved amount of money.

So if additional samples are to be submitted, we would still have some funding to work with.

This isn't the news I wanted.

I make my round of calls.

I try to reassure Justin, Michelle, and Chris.

It's not the news they're wanting either.

Okay.

I know.

I know.

It is by no means

like anywhere near the end.

You know that, right?

I know.

I just was really hoping you would have good news.

I know, me too.

It's disappointing, but there's a silver lining.

Susanna quickly realized the samples were too degraded and stopped working on them.

That means much of the budget is preserved, and that's really important when we're talking numbers with a small police agency.

If we send more, we can get it tested at no additional expense to the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office.

And as of early June,

We have more to send.

We've tracked down the missing evidence.

I can now finally send the the knife that was left lodged in Jennifer's back and the clothes she was wearing.

I hope these samples were better preserved.

We know that KBI pulled a profile off them in 2014, and that gives me hope.

I'm also holding out hope that KBI will share the details of that profile.

For now, they have only sent that one CD-ROM with more than 500 files on it.

Joel has not been able to find any DNA profiles on that CD-ROM, but he's still digging and still pestering the KBI as he sees fit.

In five months on the case, we were able to rule out a suspect who has remained under suspicion since the day Jennifer Judd was murdered.

We've sorted through the case files, ruled out Chuck Chance and Alan Reddin.

We know we have a full DNA profile of the killer.

Well, KBI has one.

But we think we can now get one of our our own.

We know there are full prints and profiles on the murder weapon and her clothing.

We will get those results in the coming months.

When we do, we'll either confirm Jeremy Jones' original confessions or we'll confirm his more recent denials.

Either way, we'll be able to move forward.

We will at long last know who killed Jennifer Judd.

And when we do, we will be back to solve this case once and for all.

Who Killed Jennifer Judd is produced by Arc Media for ID.

Our network executive producer is Meredith Russell.

This series is hosted and written by me, Sarah Kalin.

Our senior audio producer is Danielle Elliott.

Our associate producer is Imani Leonard.

Executive producers are Zachary Herman and me.

Score is by Travis Bacon.

Sound editing and mixing is by Dean White.

Audio engineering and editorial feedback provided by Josh Wilcox at Brooklyn Podcasting Studio.

Forensic research provided by Jennifer Leahy.

Archival clips provided by 2023 Griffin Media.

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