Ep.10: Back to Mobile - Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom?

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Speaker 2 We're talking spills, stains, pets, and kids.

Speaker 3 But with Anibay, you never have to stress about messes again.

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Speaker 10 Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics.

Speaker 11 That means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Speaker 12 Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime.

Speaker 4 Need flexibility?

Speaker 5 Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Speaker 13 Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes.

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Speaker 15 Upgrade your space today.

Speaker 4 Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com.

Speaker 17 Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 18 Coach, the energy out there felt different.

Speaker 19 What changed for the team today?

Speaker 20 It was the new game day scratchers from the California Lottery. Play is everything.
Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Speaker 22 Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Speaker 20 Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game. That's all for now.

Speaker 23 Coach, one more question.

Speaker 24 Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

Speaker 25 A little play can make your day.

Speaker 26 Please play responsibly, must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Speaker 27 Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

Speaker 29 I'm Hannah Berner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

Speaker 30 I like to call them my granny panties.

Speaker 28 Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John.

Speaker 32 Same, they're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

Speaker 33 And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Speaker 35 Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Speaker 36 Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

Speaker 39 That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Speaker 14 Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

Speaker 40 Put yourself on to Tommy John.

Speaker 41 Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John.

Speaker 28 Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com/slash comfort.

Speaker 43 See site for details.

Speaker 44 I think y'all are looking in the wrong place with a partner.

Speaker 45 A lady was found decapitated in your home. I always thought my father was involved.

Speaker 44 Wish you've been there with an A Sabrin.

Speaker 23 One week.

Speaker 46 And the whole life could have been different.

Speaker 23 And one week.

Speaker 47 From ID and Arc Media, I'm Sarah Kalen, and this is Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom.

Speaker 47 I feel like this is also not completely correct.

Speaker 49 And we're going to take another left up here. Okay.

Speaker 47 I mean, for all I know, that can be.

Speaker 51 I'm in the car with our researcher, Jen Leahy, and our producer.

Speaker 47 We're back in Alabama, and we're trying to find the house where Renee Bergeron lived in the final months of her life.

Speaker 54 The house where blood was found on the porch, but no formal search was ever conducted.

Speaker 55 I don't know if this search really matters.

Speaker 47 Maybe it matters only because I want everything about her to be as real as possible, to feel just a little closer to her, to stay focused on the real person at the heart of all this.

Speaker 49 The address is 5801 Theodore Dawes Road in Theodore, Alabama, which is about 15 minutes from Mobile.

Speaker 63 Unfortunately, when we tried to find the house before, the address didn't seem to exist.

Speaker 49 It smacked dab in the middle of a county water department compound.

Speaker 63 We've always figured the house was torn down to build the compound.

Speaker 63 But Jen, forensic researcher extraordinaire, has discovered that a segment of the road, a main artery through the county, was just picked up and moved.

Speaker 61 What we're on right now is my understanding is back in 93, this road was Theodore Dawes.

Speaker 50 We find what we think is the house.

Speaker 57 There's something about it too that strikes me as like that's exactly how I pictured the house.

Speaker 61 I don't know.

Speaker 23 I don't know what value that has, but

Speaker 51 like the question of the house, so many things remain black boxes in this story.

Speaker 60 These black boxes are what brought me back to Mobile in January 2024.

Speaker 47 After our attempt to find the house, I call Matt to talk about the biggest of the black boxes, the woman who sent an anonymous tip to the website and later called me to say she thinks her dad killed Renee.

Speaker 66 I will say

Speaker 66 is a struggling human being. It is very clear that this life that growing up with this man and in these circumstances has caught up with her.

Speaker 66 But I think you and I have interviewed a lot of people together and I can usually tell whose story you buy and whose story you don't. And I think you will also believe that she is incredibly credible.

Speaker 66 And so I think we should interview her. and then make a game plan for interviewing him.

Speaker 44 I know that she's saying some things that not too many people should know. Right.
But if we can credit any of her statements or her timeline of events,

Speaker 44 then that just adds more fuel to the fire to believe her. Yeah.
I know she's got some substance abuse problems and whatnot, but in this day and age, there's not too many people that don't.

Speaker 44 So that doesn't mean we just automatically discredit someone like that, right?

Speaker 44 Yeah.

Speaker 44 So we'll listen to what she's got to say and kind of proceed from there.

Speaker 51 When I first spoke with the tipster, she explained why she decided to come forward now.

Speaker 50 She told me that this was not an ordinary event, even in her chaotic childhood.

Speaker 47 Eventually, her family started telling her that the murder was solved and someone had been charged.

Speaker 65 But some part of her mind seems to have never believed that.

Speaker 53 The tipster says she thought of Renee often throughout the years.

Speaker 51 This is evident in a series of diary entries that she shared with me.

Speaker 51 In those entries, I noticed one of the most striking things about the tipster's story isn't something that necessarily points us to a definitive answer on the killer.

Speaker 48 Rather, it's something that lends tremendous weight to her credibility as a witness.

Speaker 50 That is, just how intensely Renee's death has impacted her own mental state.

Speaker 58 The tipster was only 10 or 11 years old when Renee, who she knew at the time by her alias Maria Martinez, was killed.

Speaker 64 She remembers her her well and speaks of Renee as warm and friendly.

Speaker 71 At different times in her life, for reasons even she herself can't explain, she chose to write to Renee in her journals.

Speaker 51 To protect the tipster's anonymity, we've asked a voice actor to read one of these entries.

Speaker 45 Maria, for some reason, I have many moments today.

Speaker 45 Drift of thoughts I wish I could make sense.

Speaker 45 It's also crazy, maybe finding out on the web, at least hearing the stuff I've been hearing from different people, the last few months is true.

Speaker 65 Throughout her diary, her suspicions are right there.

Speaker 15 She doesn't seem to believe that this case was ever solved.

Speaker 47 A kid today would be able to get on a smartphone or a computer and look up the case.

Speaker 51 All the tipster could do was wonder.

Speaker 45 Maybe all of this can get to a place where I can make myself finally understand why I always think of you. I don't know why you have stayed with me the way you have.

Speaker 45 Come on, help me help you, chick.

Speaker 46 Though something obviously felt off to her through the years, her suspicions began to solidify in 2021, thanks in part to our investigation.

Speaker 16 Tonight, investigators are hunting down a killer and a 27-year-old Mobile County murder mystery.

Speaker 43 A 27-year-old cold case murder.

Speaker 51 As we started investigating, one of our witnesses, Laura Morris, started writing Facebook posts about the case.

Speaker 75 The tipster saw that her own mother was liking many of the posts.

Speaker 56 Her mother and father are just recently divorced. Remember, her mother had told her a year after Renee's death that someone had been caught and the case was solved.

Speaker 52 So why would her mom be following an investigation now?

Speaker 21 There are several people of interest in this case who are still alive today.

Speaker 54 She asked her mom to explain, and her mom reiterated that the case had been solved.

Speaker 56 Her mom refused to talk about it any further, and yet the tipster says her mom had been telling other people it remains unsolved.

Speaker 53 The tipster concluded that her mom has been lying to her all these years.

Speaker 48 It's striking that during a childhood she describes as being rife with trauma and abuse, something about Renee's death still stands out from the rest.

Speaker 72 I don't expect that she has hidden memories or any such nonsense, but I do believe she knows her father well and has perhaps suspected him all along.

Speaker 46 Only now is she able to frame it in a way she can present to the authorities.

Speaker 47 Anytime someone comes forward after years of silence, it's difficult to parse out why now.

Speaker 65 In this situation, perhaps it's partly to do with the fact that her parents recently divorced.

Speaker 47 She feels her mother is safer now.

Speaker 56 Her siblings live far away.

Speaker 47 It also seems to be a part of the process of shedding a past shaped by this terrifying figure.

Speaker 44 Was the female caller or report, anonymous caller, was she abused in any way?

Speaker 44 Yes. Or do we know? Yes.

Speaker 66 So the mother actually had finally divorced only in the last couple of years. There has been throughout a significant history of domestic and sexual abuse within the home.

Speaker 66 The mother was hospitalized in a coma at one point for like a month because of a beating, apparently with a phone, an old style phone receiver.

Speaker 47 There's a lot to be said about the dangers of domestic violence, enough to fill a thousand podcasts.

Speaker 56 Obviously, there's tremendous danger for the immediate victims, but domestic violence is also frequently a harbinger of wider violence to come.

Speaker 51 As a precursor behavior seen in every category of multiple murder offenses, serial, spree, or mass, just knowing there's an extensive history of escalatory abuse within the home is enough to justify looking more closely at a possible suspect.

Speaker 50 Without serious intervention and treatment, domestic abusers will reoffend over and over, sometimes exclusively within the family structure, but often branching out to the wider public.

Speaker 66 There are three other kids in the family and she has asked her siblings to speak to us and they have all said absolutely not. They're still terrified of him to this day.

Speaker 66 She has stated that she

Speaker 66 is not.

Speaker 66 I mean, I think that she probably is, but she has stated that carrying this around, she has believed for some time that he really was responsible for this.

Speaker 44 Does she remember who the father was telling that he had killed Renee? Obviously, she was present for these conversations. Who was he telling that to?

Speaker 66 His immediate family, I guess, like his brother and then some other like cousins who are around the house.

Speaker 66 This has apparently just been a thing that the family talked about for quite a while, but everybody is kind of afraid of him.

Speaker 66 And I think there's probably an element of maybe it's bullshit, you know, maybe it's just somebody saying something.

Speaker 44 I don't know. Usually, when things are reported like that, family members will talk about those things,

Speaker 44 maybe just in-house or in

Speaker 44 their close family circle, but those things do get out, hence the reason we're calling.

Speaker 66 She did say that he has a brother who she believes would also speak to us, who has been present for these conversations since day one.

Speaker 66 So there does seem to be that there's sort of a crack in the facade now where more people are willing to talk about him.

Speaker 63 In Mobile, I try again to get her to sit down and talk formally, but she's gotten a bit skittish recently.

Speaker 61 Her statements are extremely important, and there could come a time we need to work out a way to get her on the record officially while keeping her safe.

Speaker 50 But we're not quite deep enough into this new theory for that yet.

Speaker 50 For now, we'll rely on what she's told me so far.

Speaker 51 In January 2023, the tipster told me that her father had told people that Renee was pregnant, and that's why he killed her.

Speaker 50 We know she was scrambling for money in her final days.

Speaker 47 Matt and I think it's possible she said this to Jimmy hoping he'd offer money for an abortion. But we also wonder if it's more complicated than that.

Speaker 44 I see the theory with the abortion and

Speaker 44 possibly being pregnant

Speaker 44 and it's good, but I think the aspect of the drug trafficking and sex working

Speaker 44 and that if

Speaker 44 was a participant in all of those,

Speaker 44 you know, was he pimping her out or was he helping with the drug transactions?

Speaker 44 Did she owe him money?

Speaker 44 We know from multiple witness statements that she was panicked and had recently had her arm broken coming back from Texas and was scared of people and was panicked begging for money.

Speaker 44 So that usually only means you owe someone money if you're begging too many from other people.

Speaker 44 It just adds to all of the other tips, you know?

Speaker 44 Which ones do you believe and which ones are somewhat credible?

Speaker 53 Matt and I are talking through possible theories and potential motives.

Speaker 53 Motive can be blurry in sexual homicide, but it's important to determine if there's anything tangible there, because there will always be bullshit tips and straight-up lies.

Speaker 51 In season one, a retired sheriff's deputy revealed something we'd never known about Renee.

Speaker 44 Are you serious? Yeah,

Speaker 44 she called me two days before that

Speaker 44 about

Speaker 44 setting somebody up.

Speaker 51 That's Richard Caton.

Speaker 44 She didn't get much, but I was in narcotics at the time.

Speaker 44 And

Speaker 44 she was just, I don't know, flaky. Yeah.

Speaker 44 I knew she was a prostitute.

Speaker 44 And

Speaker 44 she's more of a high-end prostitute, though.

Speaker 15 David essentially confirmed this for us as well.

Speaker 44 If you ran dope dealers, you're going to get killed.

Speaker 50 Other people told us she'd been an informant and it got her killed.

Speaker 72 Just word on the street style.

Speaker 50 Matt and I didn't really give it much credence because we've both heard that a thousand times in other cases.

Speaker 64 But now I'm wondering, could Renee have been ratting on Jimmy?

Speaker 46 We need to find someone who can help us untangle this.

Speaker 50 It's hard because so many of the people Renee knew in Mobile have died or moved away.

Speaker 72 But there is one woman we can try.

Speaker 47 We heard about her a few months ago when someone called to tell us a woman was apparently telling people in the area that she'd done escort work with Renee back in the day.

Speaker 47 And what's more, she's acting as a sort of confidant to David Young right now.

Speaker 69 I try calling her.

Speaker 69 We're sorry. You breached a number that has been disconnected or

Speaker 69 damn.

Speaker 61 Yeah, you get more of that than you don't.

Speaker 61 That's all right. I'll poke around.
We'll see if we can find some.

Speaker 55 We try another number and get a voicemail.

Speaker 15 I don't leave one because I want to pique her curiosity. So all I can do is hope this woman calls me back.

Speaker 15 In the meantime, I add this to my list of questions for Jimmy.

Speaker 68 At this point, there are several reasons we want to talk to him.

Speaker 76 There's the obvious.

Speaker 51 We consider him a suspect.

Speaker 47 The second has to do with our other suspect, David Young.

Speaker 50 We've always believed there was a world in which David knew what happened, but wasn't directly responsible.

Speaker 47 If they knew each other, Jimmy could help us confirm or eliminate David Young as a suspect.

Speaker 50 Matt and I both think it's really important to explore that possibility.

Speaker 1 Life's messy.

Speaker 2 We're talking spills, stains, pets, and kids.

Speaker 3 But with Anibay, you never have to stress about messes again.

Speaker 6 At washablesofas.com, discover Anibay sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699.

Speaker 10 Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics.

Speaker 11 That means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Speaker 12 Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime.

Speaker 4 Need flexibility?

Speaker 5 Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Speaker 13 Perfect for for cozy apartments or spacious homes.

Speaker 1 Plus, they're earth-friendly and built to last.

Speaker 10 That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch.

Speaker 15 Upgrade your space today.

Speaker 4 Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com.

Speaker 17 Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 18 Coach, the energy out there felt different.

Speaker 19 What changed for the team today?

Speaker 20 It was the new game day scratches from the California Lottery. Play is everything.
Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Speaker 22 Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Speaker 20 Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game. That's all for now.

Speaker 23 Coach, one more question.

Speaker 24 Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

Speaker 25 A little play can make your day.

Speaker 26 Please play responsibly. Must be 18 years or older to purchase play or claim.

Speaker 27 Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

Speaker 29 I'm Hannah Berner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

Speaker 30 I like to call them my granny panties.

Speaker 28 Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John.

Speaker 31 Same.

Speaker 32 They're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

Speaker 33 And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Speaker 35 Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Speaker 36 Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft, and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

Speaker 39 That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Speaker 14 Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

Speaker 40 Put yourself on to Tommy John.

Speaker 41 Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John.

Speaker 42 Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com slash comfort.

Speaker 43 See site for details.

Speaker 78 Picture yourself alone in the middle of nowhere, and there's somebody following you.

Speaker 79 He went on his way, we so thought, and then we went on ours. But in reality, he really followed us up there.

Speaker 78 On Deadly Nightmares, the true crime podcast from ID, listen to real stories of ordinary people stalked by serial killers and attackers.

Speaker 78 Listen to Deadly Nightmares on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 72 As we started looking into a connection between David and Jimmy, we realized these two men ran with the same very tightly knit groups and subgroups operating in the drug world of 1980s and 90s Mobile County.

Speaker 50 That means they were likely answering to the same people at the top. But it doesn't mean they knew each other.

Speaker 47 At least, I'm not willing to say they did until I can find a direct connection.

Speaker 46 Sometimes the connection we're looking for might be as simple as a name, the same boss, the same ex-girlfriend.

Speaker 54 Sometimes it might be a location, the same floor in an apartment building.

Speaker 47 time spent together in jail even. And we are looking for those connections.

Speaker 47 One afternoon in Mobile, I spread the case files across a large table in a conference room at the sheriff's office.

Speaker 32 I look over statements from the tipster about crimes her father got away with specifically.

Speaker 51 And suddenly, it becomes crystal clear.

Speaker 50 What connects Jimmy and David is not a name or a place.

Speaker 75 It's a very niche kind of crime.

Speaker 53 The tipster described to me how her dad and always one or two other guys would target the home of someone, often someone else in the criminal world, and hit them with a Blitz-style home invasion robbery for drugs, money, guns, whatever goods were in there.

Speaker 64 In one robbery, the tipster told me her dad shot someone in the home.

Speaker 50 The person survived, but took seriously the threats to keep his mouth shut or get a repeat visit.

Speaker 54 David Young's record reflects one similar robbery in the 80s.

Speaker 51 And there's one more person who matches up with this history.

Speaker 44 We tried to connect the dots between David and this new tip.

Speaker 77 Yeah, that's Ace Saker is the dot.

Speaker 23 Like Ace seems to be the literally like in the chain. He's the link between the two.

Speaker 23 And, you know, we know for a fact he's connected to David. David talks about him all the time.

Speaker 60 We don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt he's connected to,

Speaker 23 but there's pretty solid circumstantial evidence.

Speaker 77 They've got a lot of overlap in their circles and in their criminal history.

Speaker 47 Robin Ace Sager, Ace, the man David says introduced him to Renee.

Speaker 51 Not only was Ace involved in these home invasion robberies at the same time, he actually killed someone during one.

Speaker 77 And so he was charged with murder, but it was never prosecuted. So this, it does seem like David and

Speaker 77 there's some link there that would help make something.

Speaker 77 So we've been trying to run down Ace Sager this week.

Speaker 50 After more than a year of searching, we finally know Ace's full name, and now I know why he really matters.

Speaker 47 Now it's time to see if he's willing to come in for a nice little chat with me and Matt.

Speaker 23 Let's try this first number.

Speaker 23 Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system.

Speaker 23 It's not available.

Speaker 23 Let's try the landline.

Speaker 23 This is a fun game.

Speaker 46 The phone numbers aren't working, and we can't seem to find an address.

Speaker 47 People are squirrely with addresses, especially people who want it to be a challenge to find them.

Speaker 71 We can firmly place the Sager family in the same neighborhoods as the Williamses.

Speaker 50 And in some spots, David Young seems to live between the two.

Speaker 51 But this is just more circumstantial evidence, something we're absolutely drowning in with this case.

Speaker 49 Got his ex-wife. She's still, I think, alive.

Speaker 23 Yeah, let's see if we can find her. She might at least know what the connection is with David.

Speaker 34 I mean, hopefully, this is the right person.

Speaker 49 It's the only one whose name matches, you know.

Speaker 23 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 63 Please leave your message for seven.

Speaker 23 Hi, this message is for Sharon.

Speaker 23 My name is Sarah Kalen. I'm a special investigator.

Speaker 50 She'll either call me back right away or never.

Speaker 47 She definitely sent me straight to voicemail.

Speaker 52 I hope she calls back.

Speaker 72 If she ever knew anything about it, it's unlikely she could have forgotten.

Speaker 23 Hello. Hey, is Ace there?

Speaker 23 Who? Uh, Ace Sager?

Speaker 23 Ace Sager. Yeah, is that the wrong number?

Speaker 23 Uh,

Speaker 23 I don't know. Um, who

Speaker 23 are you?

Speaker 23 Who are are you looking for?

Speaker 23 Somebody named Ace Sager.

Speaker 44 Ace Sager?

Speaker 23 Yeah.

Speaker 23 He's Pat.

Speaker 23 Like Robin Ace the Sager, who goes by the nickname Ace?

Speaker 23 Yeah, he has Pat.

Speaker 23 I'm sorry.

Speaker 23 Could you tell me? I mean, do you mind telling me when he passed? It's been a while. I don't really remember when he passed.

Speaker 23 Okay.

Speaker 23 Are you? I'm sorry.

Speaker 23 so my name's sarah kalen i'm a special investigator with the mobile county sheriff's office um this it so it's it's definitely a surprise to me because it hadn't come up in any of our records that he was deceased can i ask your connection to him

Speaker 23 uh he's my uncle he's your uncle okay well you know i mean obviously

Speaker 23 firstly i would say i'm sorry for your loss i didn't mean to um surprise you with this information.

Speaker 23 So, okay, well, I, you know, I apologize for the intrusion, and I appreciate that. I'll see if we can, you know, figure out what went wrong in the records on our end.
Yes, ma'am.

Speaker 23 Thank you.

Speaker 57 Yep, thank you.

Speaker 23 Bye-bye.

Speaker 19 I am at a complete loss for words here.

Speaker 62 I hope they're wrong. I hope this guy's wrong.

Speaker 50 I just don't understand why. I mean.

Speaker 49 Even if he's passed, it doesn't mean I have other names for contemporary, you know, family that might be useful.

Speaker 23 It's not the same. I know.

Speaker 46 It's just weird that he doesn't come up as deceased in this report.

Speaker 23 Now, this report's a year old,

Speaker 23 but when the nephew said, it's been a while, I don't feel like he meant six months ago, because it feels like he would have said that. But, of course, you never know.
Yeah, it's possible.

Speaker 23 But he's also living a fairly, like, on-the-grid life. at least up until 2018 with all these records and stuff.
He's got a regular bank account and stuff.

Speaker 23 You can't pull off playing dead if you're going to the bank with a paycheck every couple of weeks or something.

Speaker 54 There's just something that's not right about all of this.

Speaker 23 Yeah, I really am very,

Speaker 23 very

Speaker 23 curious.

Speaker 23 I really, it did not feel like a pre-programmed don't tell people where Ace is phone call.

Speaker 71 It just was too like,

Speaker 23 huh? And most people are not good actors.

Speaker 64 The nephew certainly seemed pretty surprised by the call, but there's no death record for Robin Asa Sager anywhere.

Speaker 72 His social security number is still active.

Speaker 15 His driver's license is still active.

Speaker 61 We found one more number to try.

Speaker 23 Hi, I'm trying to reach Ace Sager.

Speaker 23 Hey,

Speaker 23 Ace Sager, is that this is a number that I was given for him? Is that not correct?

Speaker 44 I don't know who that is.

Speaker 23 Okay, all right. I must have been given a wrong number.

Speaker 50 I can't give up on the idea of finding Ace until I have some kind of proof he's dead.

Speaker 50 I feel like I'm getting closer to understanding the links between David and Jimmy, and I'm determined to solve this element.

Speaker 72 I'd like to know more before speaking with Jimmy directly.

Speaker 58 So, there's one more person I know I need to talk to.

Speaker 77 Your storage room? Yeah.

Speaker 66 Hey,

Speaker 77 come on in.

Speaker 47 Elizabeth, a woman who knew David Young well during childhood and was in touch with him enough in recent years that he called her the day we went to pick him up for our third interview.

Speaker 47 I asked her to come into the sheriff's office to speak with me again because she's my best hope of untangling the complicated web of Jimmy, Ace, and David.

Speaker 77 The problem with this case is, you know, I mean, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, is that Renee lived in kind of a wild world at that time when she died.

Speaker 77 And part of the reason I wanted to talk to you, one,

Speaker 77 are you in touch with David?

Speaker 81 All right. After I talked to y'all,

Speaker 80 I think he

Speaker 81 called me and he was at the hospital. Okay.

Speaker 81 And

Speaker 81 I think

Speaker 81 after that, I blocked him. And then I figured he died.
I just had this feeling. So then I re-found his number and I called him back.

Speaker 44 It ain't ain't been that long, I don't think.

Speaker 51 When she called him, he told her to listen to the podcast.

Speaker 81 He wanted me to listen to it. So I did.
But when I listened to it, it just kind of like, yeah.

Speaker 81 I just

Speaker 81 listening to that thing and finding out all the stuff that happened to her just devastated me.

Speaker 77 Yeah.

Speaker 77 I'm sorry you had to hear it like that, too, because obviously like when you know somebody, it's that much

Speaker 81 harder to and thinking about her little girl

Speaker 53 something has shifted significantly in elizabeth though the subject matter is painful and sad her demeanor is completely different she is more confident she seems lighter more open

Speaker 50 she is also clearly no longer afraid of him at least she's not afraid to speak her mind about him anymore I might have talked to him once or twice, but I blocked him again.

Speaker 81 I'm not ever going to talk to him again.

Speaker 77 Walk me through that.

Speaker 77 Why did you feel the need to block him last year?

Speaker 77 And I understand why you would unblock to check and see if he's alive, but what is it that you just are like, I don't want communication with this person anymore?

Speaker 81 He wanted me to come down to the hospital, and then from, I just was too scared. I wouldn't go number one.
Are you scared of him?

Speaker 81 I don't want to be around him.

Speaker 81 That's just the truth. Why?

Speaker 77 Why do you think he chose you then of everybody to start calling when we started talking to him?

Speaker 44 I don't know.

Speaker 81 Maybe because I knew Renee a little bit. Not really.

Speaker 77 The last time we talked, we were talking about this description of him as like sometimes he could be mean.

Speaker 66 Yeah. And

Speaker 77 the very first, you know, I said, well, you know, tell me what that looks like to you, right? Because everybody's got a different definition of what mean is.

Speaker 80 And you immediately started to tell this story about the fish

Speaker 81 yeah what happened to the fish he run over it with a car

Speaker 81 in front of you well yeah i was in the car oh you were in the car and i was young so it really just

Speaker 77 and he did it on purpose it wasn't a

Speaker 77 you know oh no i forgot we left that there and oh my god he did it on purpose

Speaker 47 and there it is the ending of the fish story she had shut down held back last time when she got to the part about this little fish just being too small

Speaker 47 now we're a little over a year later and her voice the way she tells it it's much stronger

Speaker 50 i had guessed it was something cruel something that would let us into that dark corner of his mind I honestly wish I had been wrong.

Speaker 51 It would have made it easier to let go and move in some new direction with this case.

Speaker 50 Instead, it makes me even more certain that he's capable of having at least been involved in Renee's murder.

Speaker 15 I tell Elizabeth where we're at with the case.

Speaker 77 The sheriff is pretty confident we could put this before a grand jury and just on circumstantial evidence, he'd probably be indicted.

Speaker 77 But we don't want to do that because contrary to popular belief, we don't want to put him in in jail if he did not do this.

Speaker 77 And so we would rather, unfortunately, a guilty man be free than an innocent man be locked up, even if he doesn't have a ton of time left, right?

Speaker 54 The information she gave us today is not enough to move forward with an arrest, but it's helpful.

Speaker 51 There's one more thing I'm hoping she knows something about.

Speaker 50 Did you ever hear the name?

Speaker 77 He would have been like a truck driver.

Speaker 65 Elizabeth is shaking her head.

Speaker 59 No.

Speaker 77 Okay, I'm just curious because there is, like I I said, there's the tip on this guy is pretty credible.

Speaker 77 And this, again, is what I mean: where it's like, maybe we did this, and David doesn't want to rat this guy out, you know what I mean? Like, and that that's all it is.

Speaker 77 And if that's the case, we would want to know that because we don't want to accuse somebody.

Speaker 50 Um, I give her a few more details, but nothing lands.

Speaker 55 She doesn't remember Jimmy Williams.

Speaker 47 Seems like no one does, even though he lived here for years and was active in both legitimate and not so legit industries.

Speaker 15 It makes sense that Jimmy's full history is difficult to nail down.

Speaker 50 When someone's job is to know as much as possible about people whose prosperity or even their freedom depends on other people not knowing anything about them, the person searching often comes up against a lot of carefully constructed brick walls.

Speaker 47 aliases, stolen identities, fake records.

Speaker 50 It's not likely to be a coincidence that David, Ace, Jimmy, even Renee herself leave very light footprints for us to follow in the world outside of structured criminal activity.

Speaker 46 I've gathered what I can about this man, and it's time to try to initiate contact with Jimmy.

Speaker 47 One of the most important moments in an interaction with a potential suspect, especially in cold case investigations, is that very first contact.

Speaker 60 How they react in the moment to an out-of-the-blue question about a crime they may not have thought about in years can tell a great deal.

Speaker 50 If nothing else, it will always be an honest reaction in that moment if they aren't expecting you. Not necessarily a truthful response, but an honest reaction.

Speaker 47 Because we really want to surprise him, we'll drive six hours to knock on Jimmy's door, hoping that he'll be there.

Speaker 66 The problem in a way is really just simple logistics.

Speaker 44 I don't think there's going to be any difficulties. I think we're going to drive up there.

Speaker 44 I think we'll get the local authorities involved and he's going to come to the office or their facility where we're going to talk to him. I mean, it's not hard.
It's not rocket science.

Speaker 44 It's just talking to people. And short of him just shutting down and saying, you know what, screw you guys.

Speaker 44 I've got nothing to say. We haven't really ran into that in this investigation.
Everybody

Speaker 44 We're pretty good at speaking with people and making people feel comfortable with us so that they will speak to us. So I don't think there's going to be any problem speaking with.

Speaker 44 Now, are we going to get a confession? I don't know, but getting him into the office and speaking with him, I don't see issues.

Speaker 53 I tend to agree with Matt.

Speaker 47 I don't think we'll have issues. Still, as a precaution, I call the local sheriff's office to ask if they'll send an officer out with us.

Speaker 50 This way, if he does start to talk, we can do everything through official channels.

Speaker 64 The sheriff's office agrees, and we set a date to go see our new suspect.

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Speaker 33 So we got an ice storm that is unfolding to kick off a Monday morning commute. Less than ideal.
So please limit your travel.

Speaker 47 A massive ice storm is moving across the U.S. and I'm driving across state lines in a region that is not even slightly prepared for snow.

Speaker 47 What should have been a five or six hour drive has turned into ten, but eventually I make it to Jimmy's small town and I meet up with detectives from the local sheriff's office in the parking lot of a donut shop, no less.

Speaker 47 Now, for the record, this was not my choice.

Speaker 54 Anyway, we've already chatted a few times on the phone in preparation, but we run down the pertinent details one more time.

Speaker 47 We even discussed two murders in the last two years within a mile or so of where we're sitting, as these detectives are now wondering if they might also want to poke around in Jimmy's life a bit.

Speaker 50 Finally, we make our way to the house.

Speaker 47 The whole neighborhood is lovely, full of gorgeous trees currently heavy with snow.

Speaker 59 Pulling up to Jimmy's address, we see a quaint ranch house on a large lot.

Speaker 74 Every house in the neighborhood looks similar, on a similar lot.

Speaker 47 Jimmy's front door doesn't look like it's ever used, but the porch is nicely decorated with some fading ceramic animals and a welcome sign.

Speaker 74 We follow the driveway around to the carport behind the house, and it's clear this is where everyone comes and goes.

Speaker 47 More knickknacks and welcome signs, some wind chimes.

Speaker 52 It's all very homey.

Speaker 50 We knock at the door.

Speaker 46 We wait a few minutes, knock again.

Speaker 38 No answer.

Speaker 61 I walk back to my car.

Speaker 52 I decide to park nearby where I can keep an eye out for his return.

Speaker 63 I promise the detectives I'll let them know as soon as he turns up.

Speaker 72 I wait for hours.

Speaker 61 Where can he be?

Speaker 50 The roads are a disaster.

Speaker 47 Nothing is open within a 50-mile radius.

Speaker 59 No one seems to be out.

Speaker 60 I can only wait so long if I'm going to make it safely anywhere before the sun goes down and the conditions get even more treacherous. It's time to call it.

Speaker 60 Unfortunately, there's nothing more we can do today, and we can't go much further until we speak to Jimmy face to face.

Speaker 64 Ultimately, I settle for knowing I'll have to come back another time.

Speaker 50 I'd hoped this trip to Mobile would solve the riddle of David Young or Jimmy Williams. Maybe Jimmy, David, and Ace.

Speaker 62 We are closer to an answer, but not quite there.

Speaker 50 And while we have not yet made an arrest, we've come a long way in our investigation.

Speaker 47 I plan to revisit Jimmy Williams until I get a chance to speak with him.

Speaker 72 There is no doubt that, at least with the original investigation, the silencing of women played a huge part in the failure to solve Renee's murder.

Speaker 50 The witness who lived just yards from where Rene's body was found, she called detectives twice to tell them about the screaming, the wailing, to be precise, she heard in the woods behind her house the night Renee was killed.

Speaker 54 No one ever called her back.

Speaker 47 The other woman who called and left messages for the detectives saying she'd been with Renee all day Friday.

Speaker 69 She never got a return call either.

Speaker 72 Both of those women are dead.

Speaker 47 What priceless, time-sensitive information was lost from failing, even refusing, to hear what all of these women had to say?

Speaker 47 Who knows, if they had talked to Joyce, they might have had a reason to speak more with David, and that could have led them straight to Laura Morris, placing Renee on that porch.

Speaker 76 The last time anyone can report seeing her alive.

Speaker 51 When we reopened the case, we did find Laura Morris, and she placed Renee at David's house within 48 hours of Renee's body being found.

Speaker 53 When we first spoke with Laura, she defended David.

Speaker 50 She did not think he'd killed Renee.

Speaker 51 She maintained this position for three years.

Speaker 47 Well, Laura no longer believes in David's innocence. Few people do, and for good reason.

Speaker 75 Matt included.

Speaker 44 As an investigator, when you walk out of an interview with way more questions than answers, you know, that person should stay a person of interest

Speaker 44 or suspect. You can't eliminate David Young.
We've tried and tried and tried to eliminate David Young, and we just don't, we can't.

Speaker 44 He's still hanging in there after three dang years.

Speaker 44 And until we can eliminate him or prove otherwise, then he will be a person of interest in the death of Bernane.

Speaker 44 This case, just because I've been on it so long and invested so much time away from my family and other friends and with you, that it's close to home now, right? It's like

Speaker 44 I know Renee just probably as good as her family does.

Speaker 44 So I want to see it solved. I want to figure out what really happened.

Speaker 50 We know through our years of investigation that David and Renee were in an on-again, off-again relationship.

Speaker 47 They lived together at times and even raised Amanda together briefly during the first year of Amanda's life.

Speaker 60 Even in the last year of Renee's life, the house she was living in when she died with the blood on the porch no one had bothered to test, she and David actually rented that house together in May of that year.

Speaker 51 Then they split up again and she got back together with an ex-boyfriend.

Speaker 46 With everything we've learned, I've started to think that we may be looking at a case of intimate partner violence.

Speaker 47 And if that's true, it changes everything.

Speaker 47 At this point, Sheriff Birch, Matt, and I agree that we could get an indictment and possibly even a conviction based on the circumstantial evidence.

Speaker 47 But we have no intention of charging him if he didn't do it.

Speaker 62 We are not sure yet and we don't want to charge the wrong person.

Speaker 46 We're still working on locating Ace. Yes, his nephew said he's dead, but I can't find any record of his death anywhere.

Speaker 72 So I'll keep looking for him, because his version of events certainly needs to be told.

Speaker 47 We are finally getting a clearer picture of how Renee got from New Orleans to Mobile at such a young age.

Speaker 50 That picture was viewed one way back in 1981 when it happened, at a time when almost every missing kid was chalked up as a runaway, and often no one but the child's parents went searching.

Speaker 58 It is one I think we would view very differently today.

Speaker 52 Remember, Renee was 14 years old.

Speaker 51 David Young was 26.

Speaker 52 She was carried across two state lines without her parents' permission and dropped off at the home of a grown man she'd never met.

Speaker 59 Imagine if that happened today, how we would view it, what we would call it.

Speaker 50 Renee, by today's definition, was abducted. With certain details, it might even be classified as trafficking.

Speaker 58 But at the time, she was just a runaway.

Speaker 47 And if Ace Sager was involved in any part of that, we need to know more about it, from him if at all possible.

Speaker 15 There are very real reasons to solve this case.

Speaker 46 None more than closure for Renee's family, if that's actually possible. I started this entire process with Amanda's blessing, and I've kept her up to date throughout the investigation.

Speaker 50 For years, Amanda carried the feeling of, why won't anyone do anything about this?

Speaker 64 Why can't we talk about my mom?

Speaker 46 She finally feels this is changing.

Speaker 67 Like, she is getting attention. She is getting what she deserves in this aspect of people caring because

Speaker 67 she was disregarded for so long. We definitely got their attention now.
And that's what we need because the more people that pay attention, the more people are going to ask questions.

Speaker 67 I want everybody to know her name.

Speaker 80 You know what I mean?

Speaker 23 Are you feeling like we are making progress, that there is something approaching closure?

Speaker 44 Bro, absolutely.

Speaker 67 I mean, you got to realize, like, it's been 30 years any attention any steps in the right direction any interview any lead any tidbit of information is a step into where we've been wanting this to go and for somebody to even look at this case after everything that my grandma went through is reassuring of course i would love it to be like an svu episode we know what happens at the end of an hour but It's the real world.

Speaker 67 I waited 30 years.

Speaker 67 Six more months isn't going to kill me. Six more months isn't going to kill me.
So do do I want answers before heaven forbid something happened to my grandma? Absolutely.

Speaker 67 I want her to die at peace with that. But I also feel that my grandma knows now that we are doing everything we can.
We are listening to her. We are talking about Renee.

Speaker 67 You know, everybody knows who she is, what's going on. And the more we talk about it, the more response we're going to get and hopefully lead to the right direction.

Speaker 44 So

Speaker 67 I'm very optimistic.

Speaker 23 I've said this before, and I'll keep saying it, that this is the most important case in my life that I've ever worked or that I ever will work, and that I'm not going anywhere either.

Speaker 67 And we're closer now than we ever been, so.

Speaker 67 Yep.

Speaker 51 It breaks my heart to even think of this investigation having to carry on past the point when Joyce can get those updates and answers.

Speaker 50 And it fills me with rage to think that had things been handled differently at the beginning, there's a real possibility she could have had those answers a very long time ago.

Speaker 47 But I do know that she knows it will keep going, and I'm glad to at least be able to give her that.

Speaker 54 To the outside world, to the true crime world, it may seem like this is coming to an end.

Speaker 50 But I was on this case years before we made a podcast, and I will remain on it until we are all satisfied with the answers.

Speaker 46 For reasons deeply personal to me, reasons only Amanda and a few other people know, Renee's case is the case that will never leave me.

Speaker 15 And I'm sure that because of that, she knows I won't ever give up on her mom.

Speaker 51 Back in 1993, Joyce wrote to the original detectives, offering her help with any information or names of friends they might want.

Speaker 51 Then she wrote to them asking for updates and status.

Speaker 50 Then she wrote to the sheriff, pleading for him to step in and get her some answers.

Speaker 72 Then she wrote to the next sheriff, telling him she was desperate for someone to even respond to her.

Speaker 46 I have one of those letters.

Speaker 58 Please write to me with some kind of report as to what has been done and what is being done.

Speaker 50 If you know of anything I can do or anyone I could write for help, just let me know.

Speaker 72 She was no angel, but we love and miss her very much.

Speaker 65 The person who killed her killed my dream.

Speaker 47 One day she would move down here to be closer to Amanda.

Speaker 72 She would be near us and she would be Renee again.

Speaker 51 Someday someone somewhere has to answer.

Speaker 46 Maybe not in my lifetime, but her daughter's.

Speaker 51 Please don't let her be an unsolved case.

Speaker 62 If you have any information on the murder of Renee Bergeron, please contact the Mobile County Sheriff's Office at 251-574-8633 or online at mobileso.com.

Speaker 72 Case 93-110576, the Renee Bergeron murder, remains our case until it is solved.

Speaker 15 My January 2024 trip to Mobile served two purposes. In addition to Renee's case, I came here to get started on another case.

Speaker 50 It's the one that brought me out of retirement.

Speaker 55 The murder of a 20-year-old woman named Jennifer Judd.

Speaker 71 When I first heard the details, I couldn't sleep.

Speaker 50 This case is one of many associated with a self-confessed serial killer named Jeremy Jones.

Speaker 15 He confessed, yet the case is considered unsolved.

Speaker 47 Paul Birch took that confession more than 15 years ago.

Speaker 50 In this new podcast, Paul Birch and I aim to answer the question, who killed Jennifer Judd?

Speaker 23 This is for Jennifer.

Speaker 31 This is for my best friend.

Speaker 44 I did that she's

Speaker 82 just such a liar.

Speaker 34 I've just felt like the guy's a creep and that he's done a lot more than what people know he's done.

Speaker 83 It just makes you question if he ever thought was real.

Speaker 83 She loves her brother, but she knows that her brother's done wrong.

Speaker 34 I just will never be convinced that Jeremy Jones is not part of many of those.

Speaker 83 I don't think that there was a true effort made to solve this.

Speaker 73 Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom is produced by Arc Media for ID.

Speaker 47 The network executive producer is Meredith Russell. This series is hosted and written by me, Sarah Kalen.

Speaker 51 Our senior audio producer is Danielle Elliott. Our producer is Eden Turner.
Our associate producer is Amani Leonard. Executive producers are Zachary Herman and me.

Speaker 15 Score is by Travis Bacon.

Speaker 50 Sound design and mixing is by Dean White.

Speaker 47 Audio engineering and editorial feedback provided by Josh Wilcox at Brooklyn Podcasting Studio.

Speaker 46 Forensic research provided by Jennifer Leahy.

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Speaker 29 I'm Hannah Berner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

Speaker 30 I like to call them my granny panties.

Speaker 28 Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John.

Speaker 31 Same, they're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

Speaker 33 And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Speaker 35 Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Speaker 36 Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

Speaker 39 That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Speaker 14 Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

Speaker 40 Put yourself on to Tommy John.

Speaker 41 Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John.

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