Episode 1672 - Jeremy Allen White

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Lock the gates!

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck buddies?

What the fucksters?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Meron.

This is my podcast.

Welcome to it.

It's called WTF.

What is happening?

How's everything going with you?

Not getting any easier, really, is it?

But I'm trying to level off.

I'm trying to get out of my head or maybe spend at least half the day outside my head.

Is that possible?

I'm talking about real time,

not head time.

I'm starting to realize headtime is much different than real time.

And I think head time is eating up a lot of

my real time.

Does that make sense?

Maybe I'll try to explain that.

Before I get

thinking out loud, I'd like to say that Jeremy Allen White is here.

He's here today.

It's going to happen.

You know him from The Bear, Shameless, The Iron Claw, and he's playing Bruce Springsteen in the new movie Deliver Me From Nowhere.

Look, I met him on set.

He was very into his work.

And as I learned

during the interview, he wasn't feeling that well the day I met him.

He was exhausted and maybe a little under the weather, but we talked a little bit.

I had no real sense of how we would be on here, but we had a great conversation.

And

we talked about a lot of stuff.

And he's a very engaged and thoughtful guy.

So that's going to happen.

Now,

still kind of coming down from all the press and

the couple of weeks that the special was up there, kind of leveling off into the work again.

And I'm not even sure I want to do that.

I do not know how to stop.

I do not know.

And given that, my show at Largo this Thursday is sold out, but I'll be back there with the band on Wednesday, September 10th.

I'm also doing this little show that probably could use some love.

It's a small show.

Tuesday night, I'm doing it with Allie Makofsky, and it's her show.

And they do sort of, I don't know if it's every Tuesday or it's once a month, but I will be there tomorrow night.

It's called Last Tuesday Ever.

It's a Bad Ladder.

It's me and Adam Ray and a couple other people.

Very small, very small show, though.

So if you want to see me in that kind of environment, I will throw the link up there at wtfpod.com slash tour so you can get tickets for tomorrow night.

Also, we'll be doing our final Ask Mark Anything bonus episodes next month.

So send in your questions.

Just go to the link in the episode description of today's show and send me whatever you want to ask.

The Ask Mark Anything bonus episodes will roll out for full Marin subscribers in a few weeks.

And that's what's up, you know.

I mean, I believe that they posted my Pod Save America episode.

It's weird.

I had not been in that environment in a long time where the sort of drive of the show is specifically to talk about politics and try to infuse that with a little hope, which I'm not great at in that world at this point in time, the political world.

But I think we had a great conversation about a lot of stuff.

So you can check that out.

And I can't say enough

that if you want to go look at the work of a guy calling himself Elephant Graveyard on YouTube, it's definitely worth looking at.

He's the Adam Curtis of

Doc Making about comedy.

And the last two have been amazing.

I got to be honest with you.

Yeah, if you go to YouTube, He's got a channel there called the Elephant Graveyard.

And the last three, the newest one is called Comedy Jonestown.

The one before that is called Comedy Czar.

The one before that is Career Ending.

He does good work in general.

He's very thoughtful, and he really sets his eyes on the current comedy world's connection to

a fascist culture, an authoritarian government.

And this new one really kind of

focuses on the techno-bro element of fascism within comedy.

And I think it's important work.

And I've reached out to that guy, but I don't know who he is.

He's anonymous.

I know he's Canadian.

I would have liked to have had him on the show, but it doesn't seem that that's in the cards.

But the work is there.

That's The Elephant Graveyard on YouTube.

I would check that out if I were you.

It's sort of, he speaks in the same world that I speak in about this stuff, but he's much more thorough and a true free thinker.

So I would do that if I were you.

As for me, I'm starting to have some realizations about

the monster we carry with us at all times, that being the phone.

And I don't think there's anything trivial or trite

or not necessary to talk about the impact of

the constant pummeling that we put our brains through with information.

And I've talked about this many, many times before, but I'm starting,

I've sort of been hung up on this idea

that our sense of time, or at least mine,

kind of has changed since COVID.

And outside of PTSD,

being that that was a three-year period where there was true terror in the minds of most of us about

a disease and how to handle it.

But there's something else that I started to realize about the nature of time in relation to it feels like it's moving fast or it's not kind of connected to days anymore, that everything just becomes one long sort of

experience that happens at different paces.

But as I've been saying lately, that I don't generally feel time flies by, but I do all of a sudden realize I'm 61 years old and I'm going to be 62.

And I started to think more about

the impact of COVID, but I realize realized that it's the impact of Zoom and it's the impact of our phones and the impact of jamming our brain with information technology of one kind or another, either for distraction or a need for connection or a need for information.

And the way time works on your phone is much different than the way time works in life or when you're disconnected from all your devices.

It's a completely different time zone.

I think it's many different time zones, but I think our brain processes that in a different way.

People talking in videos on TikTok or on Instagram or on YouTube.

Having done radio in my life and knowing the type of mania one has to kind of

get themselves into to drive a show of any kind, to broadcast on microphones, even this one,

to sort of move through it without pausing too much, unless you're doing it for dramatic effect, takes a slightly heightened way of engagement.

And I would say that's definitely in the mania spectrum, that there is an intensity of tone, of

the way you kind of talk, the speed you talk, the intensity of the talk.

I do feel it's a heightened type of engagement, and it's not necessarily that spontaneous.

It's usually driving at something.

I know I am right now, and I know that my tone right now is different than how I might be when I talk talk to somebody else or, or I think.

So if you're kind of engaging with the phone all the time with any number of hundreds of reels or bits and pieces of

what they call content coming at you, it's going to be at this heightened tone.

And

your brain's going to receive it like that.

So I think that in itself is sort of an exhausting thing and it doesn't happen in real time.

But just on a practical level, in terms of time getting away from me or maybe you, I don't know if they still have that thing on the phone, which how much screen time you spend there, but you might not know that it's hours a day.

And that's hours a day that is not moving at the pace of life.

It's moving at the pace that your brain is taking in all this heightened pounding that you're putting it through, you know, shifting time zones, you know, every minute, every 30 seconds.

You know, your brain just kind of locks into whatever the tone of whatever is happening.

And it's completely inhuman.

And I do think on some level, it's eating our time.

Is that possible?

Does that seem like a logical interpretation?

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Yeah, I have to make some conscious decisions.

I'm going to have time.

I'm excited to have the time, but I'm really, I think

I've said this before, but years ago, Dennis Miller at the beginning of the internet said something that

I never forget.

There are certain things that stick in your head.

He said that the internet is going to make crack look like Sanka.

And that didn't really make sense until now, until the idea of detaching from the phone in a very real way becomes something that I'm going to have to figure out how to do that.

Because you do look to it for news, for distraction, for emotional engagement, for validation, whatever it is.

And it's a powerful fucking drug, probably the most powerful one existing today.

I will stand by that 100% because everyone is on it.

Some people don't know that their life has become unmanageable because of it.

Certainly, the people that are feeding it every day because that's their job.

But the detachment from it, I don't know.

It's going to be something I'm thinking about because I think I need to engage in real time again.

And my real time is not without excitement.

As you know, I have an ongoing cat issue with Charlie Beans Roscoe.

And

where we're at with that right now, I can tell you, is that after engaging with the vet, he was on the Prozac for two and a half weeks, and it fucked him up.

It made him different.

And I was waiting to wait it out, but it did not deal like it totally had an effect on him, but it did not affect his aggression towards the other cat, Buster.

So I kept talking to the vet and telling her this.

And,

you know, I was willing to wait, but it really just wasn't, it was definitely doing something.

He was a different cat, and I didn't love it, but it was not doing anything about the aggression.

And I kept telling her about that.

And I decided, we decided to take him off it.

And

also,

you know, alongside of that, we put Buster on the same drug I'm on.

So me and Buster are both on Buspirone.

And we'll see how that goes for both of us.

And Charlie is now just readjusting to his insanity.

But on top of that,

I'm trying to do something.

I do not want to have to give this cat away because I do love this cat.

And Jackson Galaxy, who I talked to here, has been in touch with me, and

he thinks he can solve it.

So the approach now is with the vet and with Jackson, and I've engaged another cat behavioralist, is to

to separate them at different times during the day, to switch them out so that they each have time in the bigger part of the house where they can both feel like kings.

So that's the project now, is getting Charlie off the Prozac, putting Buster on the Buspirone, and switching them out during the day so they can both feel like they've got ownership of the house and me, I guess.

And the hilarious thing is Sam, stupid Sam, who is probably turning out to be the best cat I have, is in the middle of all this and he still minds his own fucking business.

He operates at his own pace and he's become more connected to me in the midst of all this separating the two alpha idiots, you know, at different intervals.

He's kind of locked into me a little more.

So that's a benefit.

So this is the life of real time.

And

I can project and engage and be just as distracted and worked up as I am if I'm on my phone flipping through garbage.

And also just sitting on the porch.

There's something about real life time

that I think we got to get used to again.

It's not that compelling sometimes when you're just alone.

It doesn't fill the hole per se, but maybe it's okay to live in the hole for a little while, don't you think?

I think so.

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I want to thank all the people who came out last night to the American Cinematech screening of McCabe and Mrs.

Miller at the Arrow Theater, which I hosted and did a short intro.

As many of you know, I've been obsessed with that movie since I was a teenager because it was really the first movie that made me realize, holy shit, there's a lot going on in these movies.

And the naturalism and the lighting and the Leonard Cohen music and the Vilmos Zygmund cinematography, and Albman's direction, and all the great acting.

It's a naturalism that you don't see in films anymore, and it's a period piece, and there's a lot of themes going on there.

I think at the core, it's probably about a guy just going through the difficulties of starting

a small business, and he's up against corporate interests, but it is a revisionist Western, and there's such an intimacy to it, and there's such an interesting take on gender roles and and on the the myth of the west and and individualism and it's it's i i would say that mccabe is is most definitely a a tragic comic figure and i'm i'm obsessed with his jacket and his hat for different reasons i think they imply something the hat is a bowler hat which to me in film signifies charlie chaplin and

The coat is his massive bearskin coat.

So he's sort of a clown in bears' clothing,

a tragic clown.

But I can watch that movie anytime, and the print was just spectacular.

Thank you, American Cinematech, for having me.

So look, Jeremy Allen White

is an actor.

He's very popular right now.

He's kind of hard to read, I think, and you can kind of project on to who he is with the different roles he plays.

He's nominated at the Emmys this year for Outstanding Lead Actor in a comedy series for The Bear.

The Bruce Springsteen film, Deliver Me From Nowhere, which I am in as well, opens in October, but it makes its world premiere this weekend at Telluride Film Festival.

And this is me talking to Jeremy Allen White.

How much longer?

Like another

month and change?

Wow.

That's something, man.

End of an era.

Heavy, super heavy.

Yeah, it's sort of a big deal to end things of any kind.

Yeah, of course.

And I don't.

It's been a long time.

I know.

I don't think I've quite, like, I we've given it enough time to, I'm prepared.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's like, it's like any other relationship.

Sure.

That, you know,

there's a loss to it, but not unlike other relationships.

You know, I've...

I've had my time.

Sure, sure, sure.

On some level, I've had enough.

Yeah, yeah.

Not in a bad way, but it's like it's it's a lot.

And so much of my time and life goes into doing it.

Yeah.

And I think talking to people like this

is probably the, it's a primary, my primary social life.

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

It's kind of nice to have a work built-in social life, though.

Sometimes I wish I had something like that, you know?

Well, yeah, it's kind of odd because like I have conversations with people, you know, and they're usually pretty, pretty thorough and connected, and then they just go away.

Sure.

But I was wondering, I mean, if you walk into a party or something like that, is it just so easy for you to get around?

Because you kind of have had a really great conversation with most people in those kind of rooms, you know?

It is.

Like, I never, I still, I don't think I have a full awareness of my impact in the world or whether or not people necessarily remember me as I remember it.

You know, because a lot of times people are on junkets or they're just doing these things.

I mean, most people know who I am.

Yeah.

But I don't know.

Am I any different than any

other

interview they've done?

Sometimes I think that.

Maybe for some people, but I don't know, man.

I mean, I think most people.

know the deal.

Yeah, there's some people that I definitely feel connected with.

And it always surprises me.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's kind of great.

Like, you know, I went to a party and I saw Jeff Goldblum there and I interviewed him years ago.

Yeah, yeah.

And he was like, oh, my God.

You know,

yeah, there's some guys like, you know, I'm pretty good friends with Tracy Letz.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a couple people that I've had on that, you know, I have kind of friendships with.

Johnny Knoxville's another guy that's always pretty happy to see me.

Where it's like the friendship is born from being in a room like this?

Well, kind of, or at least a familiarity of connection.

Sure.

You know, there's some people that I've done this show with, and I'm not even sure they remember doing it, but that's just me.

You know, but to answer the question, yes, I do feel like I'm part of this thing as whatever I am.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and but there haven't been a lot of people that I, outside of guys I know, outside that I've really kind of, you know, remained buds with.

Gotcha.

But I'm old.

It's hard to make friends.

Sure, sure.

It's hard to maintain those things.

Yeah.

What are you going to do?

Like, they're like, you know, have you worked with Josh Brolin?

No, no, never.

Do you know him?

I don't, but I just did a thing with Austin Butler, and I know him and Austin have a really special thing.

Oh, yeah.

I had Austin on, but I don't get the sense that, you know, we're pals.

Yeah.

I bet he'd be happy to see you, though.

Sure, he's a nice guy, but he's one of those guys where,

you know, sometimes there's so much happening for a guy.

Yeah.

And they're so in the zone of like, you know, showing up for these things

where you don't exactly know if

it's just a tricky thing, you know, how I perceive people, you know, connect with me.

I'm sure he'd be happy to see me.

But I'd be like, do you remember?

I did that to Jack White once, and it was almost like I interviewed Jack White years ago.

Yeah, yeah.

in Nashville.

And then years later, I saw him

at the airport.

And I didn't even know if I could know go up to him sure sure and I was like hey man you know Mark remember he's like fuck of course you know I don't know what the fuck I'm thinking I came over to his goddamn house of course but people remember these things sometimes they do but but the point with Josh was though like I rarely you know like

I rarely kind of follow up.

I don't feel it's my place in terms of boundaries in the job to, you know, I'll give you a call sometime or something like that.

Some people, like,

but like Josh and I had a long conversation about Zins.

You know, I got fucking two Zins in my mouth right now.

And he's like a Zin junkie.

Yeah, yeah.

And I got this place where I can get the flavored ones here, which are illegal.

So I was like, I'll tell you what it is.

And he gave me a phone number and I'll text you the place.

And I don't even know if it was a real phone.

Right, right, right, right, right, right.

Like, I never heard back from him.

And I'm realizing, like, this has got to probably be his third phone, maybe his assistant's phone.

Sure, sure, sure.

But he's such a charming fucker.

Yeah.

He's charismatic, man.

Yeah, because, you know, he walks in and you feel like your best friends are ready, and I buy it.

Of course.

Yeah, but not nothing.

No, like, I got the shit, nothing.

I bet he'd be happy to see you, too.

Yeah.

Well, I think he's got a zone or a vibe that he works with where you always feel, he's got that charisma that's very honed.

So he's one of those guys where he's going to make you feel special, even if it's for a minute or two.

Yeah, yeah.

And you walk away like, yeah, this is kind of my bud.

Those guys are special, man.

Those guys that can make you feel like the sun's kind of shining on you.

Cooney's the same way.

Yeah, yeah.

Cooney was surprising.

He actually

is a very decent fella.

Yeah, yeah.

You know that guy?

Oh, no, never met him.

No.

Yeah, because I went to, I interviewed him.

It was over Zoom during COVID.

And

he knew me and what I'd gone through with losing my partner and stuff.

That's right.

But

he was very generous during the interview.

But then I saw him like, I don't know how long ago, how much later it was, but it was like a press screening of that movie he directed.

Yeah.

That Tender Bar movie.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Now, I was just there with the press.

You know, I was going to interview maybe Ben.

I don't remember who it was supposed to, but I was there.

You know, it was just a daytime screening for press guys.

And,

but he walked in, you know, and I was heading to the bathroom.

He just made a beeline to me.

Like, you know, like out of everybody, he's like, you're all right.

You know,

sweet guy.

Makes you feel good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm a pretty sensitive fella.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Me too.

Me too.

I know.

It seems like it.

Yeah.

I I mean, we did that one scene in the movie.

Oh, my God.

I was in rough shape, I feel like

at the time, yeah.

I kind of sensed all that.

It's a very weird thing to have such a, like, I had a small supporting role, but I knew you guys were locked in.

And at that point, I don't even know where you were at.

It was like we were about to break for kind of a holiday break.

Isn't that right?

It was like December, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That sounds right, yeah.

So, yeah, I feel like we had been going for two months

pretty steady.

Yeah.

And I feel like I had gotten some kind of like prong,

something

was going on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we were just in it too, exactly.

That thing of just like, once you, you're into it a couple weeks, a month, two months, you just, you know, I know.

It's taken me a while, you know, because of being on sets to just realize like, and that's the other thing, too, about being on sets.

When you asked me about friendships and from work, you know, for years I always thought like guys who do movies together, they got to stay in touch.

And it's like, yeah, no, they don't.

No, not always.

It's really rare.

It's really rare.

And and it's disappointing like I remember the first kind of the the job I did I did this movie when I was 16 called after school and so I was still in high school at the time Yeah, and we shot it during the summer.

Yeah, and it was a really young crew young director these guys at NYU They were all like 23 and I was 16 and I thought I found all my best friends.

Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean?

Like I was like, this is it.

We're going to do this forever.

Yeah.

And that was my first experience with that thing of like, it's sort of like just summer camp.

You know what I mean?

And then everybody goes off and they continue on, but you think in that moment, oh, this is it.

I figured it out, you know?

And I think that's part of the

joy of doing it if there is any.

Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely.

But like, that was your first movie?

That was...

Yeah, no, not my first movie, but that was the one where I went, oh, like, you know, this is.

But it's a funny thing because when you have that feeling and then when you're done, it's even you.

You're sort of like, I don't need to call that guy.

I don't think I can.

totally, totally, totally, totally.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you're waiting for the phone to ring.

And then when the phone doesn't ring, then you're like, yeah, whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, was it like, you know, because you guys, you know, Strong works a certain way.

Yeah.

And, you know, I interviewed him.

And like, I, like, I don't know if it's because of just who I am and a sort of zero fuck attitude.

Like, I kind of like busting his balls a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember a little bit of that.

I remember a little bit of that.

Yeah.

About his process.

It's just so funny because he's willing to talk to you as Jeremy, but he's going to do it as Landau.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, that man is, he cares so much.

That's what it is.

Yeah, that's what it is.

Because it's not, he kind of gets this method thing, but I don't think it's method.

I just think he's just immersive in order for him to do what he does.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think a lot of these guys, you know,

I don't think it's method either.

Yeah.

And I know some of these guys like Jeremy, they just have to, they have to go all the way.

And in my opinion, these are all great actors,

regardless.

You know what I mean?

I think Jeremy showing up

and reading off a piece of paper he's seen for the first time is going to be compelling.

I think he's got the gravity and he's got the thing.

But I think with some of these guys, they just feel like for themselves, maybe it's an insecurity, maybe it's this, maybe they don't feel like they deserve to be there, whatever it is, they need to go ahead and push it all the way and do all the stuff to make it feel like

they're deserving of that spot.

But in my opinion, all these guys are brilliant regardless.

And also,

yeah, totally.

And on some level, just as someone who's doing it a little more than he used to, like, how do you make it interesting?

Yeah.

I mean, you know, and

if you're compelled to do that, because it's a lot of waiting around.

Yeah.

And, you know, and to make that time on camera feel like it's worth it.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess you're going to do what you got to do.

Yeah.

It's a big, like, you got to start to figure out how you conserve that

energy.

Yeah, but be satisfied creatively.

Yeah.

Now, how long before you shot was he, you know, talking to you as John Lando?

I think, let's see, Jeremy and I, we hadn't met.

We'd emailed a little bit.

I think we share an agent, Max.

And so we've been in touch, and I was a fan of his, and he reciprocated.

But I think the first time we spent time together, yeah, he was already in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But was he like, he, was he texting you as John Landau?

A little bit, I think, a little bit, you know.

But it was, but it was great because, you know, I mean, look, I love Jeremy.

I've continued to talk to him a lot after we finished this.

We talked a lot during it.

Yeah.

And at first, you know, he was messaging me.

And, you know, Landau and Bruce's relationship, Landau is such a supporter.

You know what I mean?

Oh, yeah.

And I was like getting these texts from Jeremy.

And I was like, man, this guy's like so supportive and like loving and, you know, caring.

And at the moment, I was like, oh, maybe he's just, you know, maybe he's just doing like a thing where he's in character.

But then I discovered that's he's, he's that guy too.

You know what I mean?

He's just like a really supportive.

Are we doing the scene now?

Right.

There was something where I was like, maybe this is the thing.

But as we got to know each other better and spend more time together, I just realized, you know, he loves actors.

And that's not always the case, man.

There are some actors that are like,

there's a real competition in there.

Yeah.

And

Strong just, he loves actors and I love those actors.

How's that manifesto like a competitive actor like he's gonna try to steal the scene kind of thing?

I mean maybe maybe something like that or like I don't know like I I started acting at such a young age.

How old were you?

I was like 14 15.

There was always like a couple guys in front of me or the couple guys that always got everything.

Yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean?

And as a kid, I was I was angry, you know, I was like, you know,

I could do this.

I could do that.

I could do this better than that.

I could do, you know, all this stuff.

And that eats you up.

And I think with some people, that can

carry on.

You know what I mean?

Well, that sounds like it becomes a bitterness thing.

Totally.

So where'd you grow up?

I grew up in Brooklyn, New York.

Really?

You were just a New York kid?

Yeah, yeah.

I grew up

around Park Slope until I was eight.

We lived in Baltimore for a couple of years, essentially, like three years.

We had some family there, my dad's brother, and I think my parents

and my little sister at at that point, my younger sister,

my parents wanted us to have like a bit of a yard and

maybe like a suburban kind of thing because my dad had a brother there.

Yeah.

He was like, maybe this is the spot.

But nobody liked it.

My parents didn't like it.

I didn't really like it.

I think my sister liked it because she was so young when,

you know, but

we came back when I was like 11.

And what was the family business?

So my dad had a business for a long time

filming depositions, pretty much.

He started his own business.

He had a couple guys working for him.

He did that for a while.

And my mom was a

special education teacher in kindergarten.

And so they were always pretty supportive?

Were they?

Well, yeah, they actually met.

They were actors.

So my mom grew up in North Carolina.

Yeah.

My mom grew up in North Carolina, went to North Carolina School of the Arts, which is a great

arts college and studied acting there.

But she moved to New York in the big dreams.

late 70s early 80s with the big dreams and my pops too.

He grew up outside of Philly and And he moved there to pursue acting as well.

And

so they're both living in the city kind of stuff?

They were living in the city, yeah.

I think they moved there late 70s, early 80s.

And we're doing theater.

We're doing their thing, you know.

And as the story goes, sometimes I'm like, I got to talk to my dad about this story because I've taken it for myself and it might be a little different, but I like this story, which is my dad saw my mom in a play, fell in love with her, ran out at intermission, got her flowers, asked her out afterwards, and that's how they started seeing each other.

And that's how you were delivered the story?

That's, I believe, how the story went.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or now I've taken it, and that's, that's, that's the story.

And you think there might be a little space in there?

Maybe, but, you know, that's very concise and clear for me.

And, um, and that's how they met.

And then, you know, they did it for a long time apparently off Broadway off Broadway yeah off-Broadway stuff

and apparently my mom was very very

very good yeah

and my dad will say it himself he he wasn't you know he wasn't as great he kind of like over intellectualized things a little bit yeah

familiar with that yeah but my mom my mom I think had the real the real thing the real instinct for it

but you know it didn't take off for him because it's a hard thing it's a hard and stupid life.

Yeah, it is.

And they wanted to have a family.

Yeah.

And they were living on the Upper West Side at the time.

Yeah.

And then my dad kind of figured out this business.

They moved to Brooklyn and they

had me.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

So he probably thinks on some level, it's still creative.

I'm shooting stuff.

Yeah, for sure.

For sure.

And, you know, they were support, you know, I grew up in a household that was very...

supportive of the the arts.

There's a passion there.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Did any of them did your mom do like community stuff after or nothing just like stopped acting and that was it but she's retired now from from teaching yeah and uh i think she did a she did a short film actually that was like somehow connected with my middle school drama teacher like he got her something in a short of an old student of his yeah um i think you know i wonder if she'd like to mess around yeah and do some stuff now so when when you wanted to do it you're how old were you

um i guess seventh grade was the first time I

remember doing that kind of thing, performing.

What was that?

Was it like a musical or something?

That was this teacher, this teacher, John McInenney, and he taught at a, he taught at a school in Brooklyn, MS-51.

And

I joined the class.

And yeah, it was just a

improv sort of exercise.

and uh in a black box you know

and i just remember the feeling of you know being able to focus, which was very hard for me as a young person and still is.

Um,

feeling present really for kind of the first time, especially with improv, because you're you gotta be in it, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, and I, of course, remember the attention, you know, there was like I felt the eyes on me, yeah, and I felt that people were waiting and like connected and wanted to see what was going to happen next.

Yeah, and I was like, oh, this is pretty cool.

That's a rush, yeah, exactly.

I still like like that, that space always is kind of fucking insane.

Yeah, it horrifies me now.

I couldn't, I, you know, yeah.

I mean, I was on stage just the other night and

Martin Lawrence had come in and he did a set.

Wow, yeah.

And he brought me up.

And it was just this moment where, you know, I was kind of feeling, I'm just trying to feel stuff out now because I just did a special.

So I'm at square one.

Sure.

So I'm fucking off a bit.

Yeah, yeah.

And I said a few things, and then there was just that silence.

And I had that, and I've done this before.

I have that moment where I just say out loud, I'm like, you're all just waiting for for me to, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then I just said, Let's just, let's just sit in this for a minute.

There you go.

But it was terrible.

Why?

What are they?

How do they react when you do that?

Well, how are they going to react?

They're the comedy audience, and they're like, What is happening?

Is it funny though?

Do they is it uncomfortable?

Is there something in that space that feels interesting?

You know, well, it's interesting because it is uncomfortable.

Yeah, like I know I'll get out of it, sure, most likely, but just to stop everything, just have that weird moment.

Like when you're on stage and you're, you're kind of uh, you acknowledge it, but you know, you're moving towards something like I literally stopped it without a plan

just to see how that felt for a minute.

And there was some uncomfortable laughter, but you know, eventually I picked it up, but I just wanted to check in with that space because it is a it's kind of a terrifying space.

Yeah.

And you kind of just have to

do it.

Like getting in the cold plunge or whatever.

Remind yourself that

it's that being present thing.

Yes.

Yeah.

There's nothing more present than failing in front of people.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Terrible.

Yeah.

So you do the improv thing.

So this guy, the teacher, is he the guy that planted the seed?

I mean, do you...

For sure.

He was a very serious, serious guy.

Yeah.

But he was teaching, you know, 11, 12, 13-year-olds.

But he made us feel

like it was important.

Like it was important.

Yeah.

You know, and I think for a lot of kids, they haven't found what's important to them yet, nor should they at that age necessarily.

What are you doing?

You know what I mean?

Yeah, 13, 14.

But it was so important to him, and I thought that was cool.

And

I remember he had us do, in seventh grade,

we did Macbeth and 12th Night back to back.

So we each played two parts.

And it was insane to have 12, 13-year-olds do two Shakespeare plays back to back.

But that was the kind of guy that he was.

And he took it so seriously.

I mean, he lived very close to the middle school.

And

it was just,

that was his life and you know he could tell it he wasn't sleeping and he was making edits on Shakespeare and you know all this

all this stuff he just he took it very seriously and he sent me out on

like

whatever backstage you know to find open open casting calls so you were the guy were you the golden boy at that time I mean you know he sent out a couple of us yeah I remember there was this kid Phil who played Macbeth I played Macduff but I also played Malvolio So I had like a lot going on between the two.

But I remember he played Macbeth and I was like, shit, I'm not, you know, I'm not the guy.

Maybe I'm not the guy.

But Mr.

McInenney,

yeah, I think he was like

this is something.

I'm not Macbeth.

Exactly.

What's the point?

Exactly.

Exactly.

But I think he saw something going on and he sent me out on like, you know, off, off, off Broadway kind of audition.

Yeah.

And I ended up getting it and

doing that in the city.

And then what was that part?

It was it was like original.

It was called the present.

It wasn't, yeah, it wasn't excellent, but it was, you know, it was like a black box.

Like, where was it?

Do you remember where the theater was?

Yeah, it was on the Upper West Side.

I don't remember exactly, but it was small, small theater, like, I don't know, 80 cap.

Yeah, was there people coming?

Yeah, there were people coming.

But it was that same thing.

It was enough to get me...

It was that thing, again.

It was like, oh, wow.

These people are paying attention.

But also going into the city.

For sure.

Did you go in the city pretty regular anyways?

Maybe not at that age so much.

We'd go in on occasion, like special occasions.

And then when I was getting into, yeah, like...

Did you see Shakespeare?

I went to high school in the city.

Oh, you did?

Let me ask you, though, before we space it out, did he

make you understand Shakespeare?

Do you know like because like that language, and I'm hung up on Shakespeare in general because I'm one of those guys who are like, I can't get my head around it.

Like, like, no, right.

Because

you're always going to be trying to piece that stuff together, you know?

I don't know if there's ever

fully understanding.

That's all, that's like a life's work, you know?

But yeah, there would be certain things, like we'd work a monologue over and over again, and he'd break that down.

But then the rest was all instinct.

But what he did give us, I think, was like...

trust in our own instinct.

Nothing was wrong necessarily.

And I think that's a nice way to approach Shakespeare.

Yeah.

And it also gave us,

you know, or gave me an idea of real like value and self-worth.

And like, I was like, oh, my opinion on this stands for something.

Oh, that's good.

You know?

Yeah.

It's amazing when you have one teacher that kind of does it.

Totally.

Yeah, because they save lives.

Yeah, absolutely.

They make lives.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I just wasn't good at it.

I mean, you know, and I was young, but I was just like, oh, this is, you know,

maybe, maybe I'm good at this.

Maybe I could, maybe I could pursue it.

And he made me feel like that was possible.

What's your relationship with Shakespeare now?

Oh, man.

I'd be scared to do it now,

but I'd love to.

Yeah.

I'd love to.

Yeah, yeah.

So you succeed enough to want to go to school for it?

Yeah, I went to a performing arts high school.

To the one?

No, no.

It was crazy.

So another hit I took.

I didn't play Macbeth.

Yeah.

And then

this kind of middle school program was so good that about half of the class from 51 would get into LaGuardia, which is like the game school.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I did my monologues, and I knew they were very good.

I just did.

And

about half the class got in, and a couple of the kids that got in are still very good friends of mine.

Yeah.

And I didn't get in.

And I got into all the other ones that got into the school called Frank Sinatra, Professional Performing Arts School.

There might have been one other.

And

I went to two in one year.

Frank Sinatra, I dropped out middle of of the year.

I went to PPAS.

I just didn't like it.

But then I realized that was just a problem with school.

I just didn't like school.

But I went to PPAS, and then I auditioned for LaGuardia again.

And then I got in, and I could have went there sophomore year, but I felt like I was sticking it to them by staying at PPIS.

Good, yeah, sure.

That's a good attitude.

So I stayed there, and that was a school on

48th, between 8th and 9th, in Hell's Kitchen.

And it was a lot of kids that were already working.

It was a lot of like theater kids and stuff like that.

And so what are you just doing?

All of it?

Song and dance, man?

Yeah, all of it.

I mean, there was like a musical theater department.

This was like the straight drama program I was in.

But yeah, we would have movement, we'd have vocal, we'd have sort of like script breakdown, we'd have acting techniques.

You didn't do any musicals?

I didn't do any musicals.

No.

No, no.

That was scary to me.

Why?

Singing or dancing?

Singing.

a dancing I had no problem with I like dancing yeah

but the singing was scary did you get an opportunity to do any dance I started in dance yeah yeah yeah yeah I did ballet tap and jazz for a long time before I ever found acting with John McEnany so when you were a kid yeah yeah yeah you were tapping it out totally yeah yeah yeah yeah well that's interesting because you're kind of like kind of a tough guy now I portray a tough guy maybe sometimes yeah

you were like the dancing kid yeah I mean I don't think that was how I was how I was known but but yeah i liked it you know i i had a lot of energy as a kid and like i said i i it was very hard for me to focus yeah and uh my parents put me in all i did sports too my parents put me i was like wrestling and i was playing soccer i was playing baseball yeah doing all this stuff But it just was, they were just like, we got to run this kid out, I think.

Oh, right, right.

And so they added dance to the mix.

Yeah.

And

I think dance, again, it was that.

But was it fun?

It was fun.

And it was that, again, it was eyes on you.

Yeah.

And it was also like, you know, I was the only boy, you know, and I was kind of great as a young

man with a bunch of, you know, with a bunch of girls.

And yeah, I liked it.

I liked it a lot.

Does he still dance?

For a while, yeah, sure.

I mean, I go out and dance for a while.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because Rockwell's.

It's been a long time now.

Rockwell can't stop dancing.

Great dancer.

Great actor.

I love that guy so much, man.

I love him.

He's a good guy.

I think he's my friend.

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah.

I'm cool jealous we'll text occasionally well we just we did an animated movie we're in the bad guy of course my daughters love that movie they do okay yeah yeah so uh so sam is uh he's a good guy yeah yeah yeah but he loves the dance yeah man he's a good dancer i mean i remember seeing him in uh in the fossey movie yeah yeah yeah well fossey but even way back like uh what was it It was like Charlie's Angels or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He does, there's this like montage kind of like, it's like violence and then him dancing around.

And it's, I thought it was so, so cool.

Yeah, yeah.

So So when

the first roles start coming,

I guess because you started so young, you're able to kind of develop a comfort on set and stuff

to where, you know, by the time you get the bigger opportunities, you're kind of seasoned already.

Yeah, I mean, I think some of the best performances I ever see are kids.

They just

they don't have that self-conscious.

I just watched Close Encounters of Third Kind the other night

because they got a new 70mm meter print.

Yeah.

And that kid, it's like, well, how the fuck did they get that out of that kid?

They just don't, it's, they don't have any other choice, but to be honest.

You know what I mean?

It's like they haven't, they haven't gotten all messy in their head yet.

Yeah.

And then I think, you know, some of them are able to protect that for a long time.

Do you ever see this movie Close?

I don't know.

I don't think so.

It's,

I'm going to mess it up.

It's like French or Danish or,

but it's just about these, these young boys.

They're 12 or 13.

They have a really

close relationship, very like loving, they're best friends, but they get older and there's some like homophobia going on at school, and then they're like, oh, maybe we shouldn't be this close.

They start questioning

how much they love each other, you know.

And these kids, this movie came out like two or three years ago, some of the best, it's the best.

It's really the best.

And I see those performances and I go, just protect that.

yeah you know or the film with um two years ago it won a bunch of awards uh the father falls oh the anatomy of the fall the anatomy of the fall yeah yeah yeah that kid was like brilliant and i was just like protect that thing so anyway i yeah i think i was lucky in the start because i was like whatever this is fun yeah yeah and that's the way to approach this thing but the older you get it becomes oh maybe i'm doing this now or this is how i make a living or this is how like people are paying attention yeah and it's hard to maintain that thing of just you know well that's interesting for

so you're saying like a kid can't help but be honest and if he knows the task at hand because a lot of kids you know they they get self-conscious still and they they act like they think they should act sure so the ones that it's not the case all sure right so the ones that can get past that are really kind of gifted people i mean brolin was a kid actor there's a lot of kid actors yeah you have kids right yeah yeah two yeah daughters two daughters six and four now are they uh are they actors

i mean i don't know um but no no we're not like putting into a class or trying to get them in front of a camera or anything like that.

But you can still see that honesty, I guess.

For sure.

I mean, kids have that

all the time.

I mean, you know,

they'll look right through you, sometimes surprise you just in the way they carry themselves.

And then they bring that

to

set.

I don't have that.

That's where they are.

I have no kids, so I don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

I find it very touching, though, for some reason.

Well, have you ever been kind of like torn down by a kid?

You know what I mean?

Like, they can kind of see that thing

that you don't like about you a little bit or something.

Sure, and that's where I'm like, sort of like, I think we're done.

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

Yeah.

You're my friend's kid.

I don't have to put up with this.

Yeah, totally.

You walk my way.

Keep that to yourself, kid.

But yeah, so I was, yes, I was young.

It was fun.

Yeah.

And it felt, yeah, it felt like easy in a nice way.

Yeah.

And it felt fun.

How old were you when you had kids?

I mean, you're a kid.

You're a kid.

You seem young.

Yeah, pretty young, I think, in this day and age, or at least in like cities like LA and New York.

Did you meet your wife through your ex-wife through acting?

Yeah, yeah.

I met her at this school.

I met her when I was 14 at PPA.

That's crazy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you got locked in at 14?

We weren't together when we met, but we were, I mean, I was infatuated, yeah, when I met her when I was 14.

She never went away.

Not really.

No, no.

Yeah.

It carried.

And like we, you know.

We had a couple false starts and we kind of followed each other around.

She transferred to a different school.

I was heartbroken.

We ended up doing a movie together by chance a year after that, after school, which was the first time

I did it.

Everyone was going to be buddies.

Exactly.

And then we happened to move to LA kind of at the same time.

So we were kind of just like following each other around.

And the infatuation was mutual?

I think most of the time it was coming from me.

But yeah, yeah, of course.

Because when I think back at the girls I was infatuated in high school, I just never had a shot.

And I think there were periods where I didn't have a shot, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah,

we gave it a real go around when we were like 24.

Oh, yeah.

25.

And then, yeah, we had Ezzy when we were 27.

In New York?

In L.A.

In LA?

Yeah.

So you've lived here the whole time?

Yeah,

I got a job out of high school.

I got this show Shaman.

Oh, yeah, that was big.

For a very long time.

For a long time.

Yeah.

With Macy and that crew.

Exactly.

And that was great, right?

It was great, man.

I mean, mean,

that was my schooling.

Yes.

You know, because we did that for, I was 18 when we did the pilot, and I was 30 when we finished.

That's crazy.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Never, and it was always exciting?

No, I mean, I think that's a long time to do a show.

Yeah, it becomes a job, right?

Yeah, for sure.

And there was hard years in there, just for me, where I was like, I was like, you know, very grateful, obviously.

I mean, it carried me for so long.

It made me feel very secure i always had some place to be yeah i loved all the people involved but yeah there were certain years certainly where it was difficult for me to find the the stuff yeah yeah you know or the inspiration yeah yeah yeah and macy's kind of a hardcore actor yeah absolutely did you like did you pick up stuff from him yeah i mean he's he's a serious guy too um

And I think that's what it was.

I mean, I think that that cast was very young.

Right.

And

but we all cared a lot and we wanted to show up yeah but i think at times you know we could spin out of control you're talking about sure

ages 10 to 24 kind of when we started and you were 18 through i was 18 and cameron was 16 and emma and ethan were 10 11.

so you're living in la

living in layers on a show you know on a show you hit 20s yeah you can you know party yep yep yep and i think it was that thing too i was having a little bit of frustration with uh

you know it's the dream dream now to have a job in LA.

Now that I have two daughters and, you know, I have a job that's consistent.

But at the time, my peers and stuff, they were shooting in South Africa, they were shooting in the UK, and they were shooting in Canada and South America.

And I was like, well, I want to, I want to travel the world.

Like, what's going on?

I'm shooting at Warner Brothers.

Oh, yeah.

But now it's like, it's a fucking gift.

Yeah, totally.

At that time, I was so frustrated by it.

And now, yeah, if I could just see my girls all the time and not have to bounce around everywhere.

Where do you shoot the bear?

Chicago.

So that's something.

But Chicago's cool.

Chicago's great.

I mean, I love the city of Chicago, you know,

but it's far, you know,

I get on a plane every weekend.

It's just Chicago.

Yeah, yeah.

It's just, you just get tired.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's fucking nuts.

Yeah, yeah.

But that, so that show came directly right on the heels of Shameless?

Yeah, yeah.

I got a,

I did this movie called The Rental that Dave Franco

directed.

Oh, I think I saw that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was made, or it came out during 2020.

Right.

And it was kind of one of the only movies that was like being released during that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, right.

Because you, of course,

you and

Allison were.

Yes, yes, yes.

I did that movie, and Chris Storr,

who created The Bear, was a producer on it.

And I didn't talk to Chris very much.

He was kind of in and out while we were shooting it.

We were shooting in Oregon.

Yeah.

And Chris Storr,

you know, he comes up to me.

He goes, hey, buddy.

And I'm like, oh, hey, man.

And he says, what do you think you're going to be doing in like three years?

And I was like,

I don't know.

Like, you know, I think I got a couple more years of shameless probably.

And then we'll see.

And he goes, all right.

I'm going to call you in three years.

And I was like, okay, guy.

You know, it's like so Hollywood.

I was like, I'm never going to hear from that guy again.

And we're wrapping up season 11 of the show.

Yeah.

And I get a text, you know, Chris Storr, I'd like to talk to you about this thing.

Three years later?

Yeah, yeah, just about.

And I talked to him about it.

And it was, you know, Shameless took place in Chicago.

Bear takes place in Chicago.

There's a certain amount of dysfunction going on in both.

Yeah.

And I think I was kind of like, I've been doing Shameless for 12 years.

And I was like, I got to get out of Chicago or I got to do this or do that.

And I was hesitant, even though I love Chris and the script was so good.

I was hesitant.

But then I had this moment, I think, of just going like, this script is so good.

Like, who am I to regardless of the environment of it, regardless of, I was like, get out of your own way.

Right.

And just, if it's good, it's good.

And follow this.

And so, well, yeah.

And I guess the parts as far as dysfunction goes and carrying the weight of

that particular disposition.

Yeah.

You know, as a guy who, you know, I'm a cranky fuck.

Sure.

And, you know, I'm a sober fuck.

But, you know,

the weight of it, I mean, did your life get out of control?

I guess it did a little.

Yeah, at times, for sure.

Absolutely.

Several times.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How, like, what was the strain on the dynamic in your family heading into like the bear?

I think

I was such an anxious, I mean, I'm still an anxious person.

Yeah.

You know, and I think when shameless ended, I was like a very difficult person to be around.

Yeah.

Because Because I was scared.

I'd had 11 years of stability.

I had a family outside of my now new family.

And I was walking into the unknown for

the first time

in a very long time.

I remember doing my last ADR session at Warner Brothers for Shameless.

And I live not far from the studio.

And I was driving, leaving Warner Brothers, driving on Mulholland.

And I started having a panic attack and I had to pull over on the side of the road because my arms, yeah, my arms went all kind of numb

and

tingly.

Yeah.

And my neck started feeling very tight and chest.

Yeah, yeah.

That's every morning for me.

Yeah, right, yeah.

So you're familiar.

And

I really am, dude.

And I had to pull over.

And look, I'm not saying, like, you know, my wife has a lot of, ex-wife has a lot of space for that kind of thing, but I'm just saying I was a very,

I think I was very difficult to be around.

Because you get into your own loop and, you know, everything's fucked.

Totally.

And catastrophic thinking.

I have that too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you fix it?

I mean, every day I have my tools and I've got the things that I try to do to help it.

But no, I don't know if it's ever going to be.

What the fuck is that, dude?

Like, I'm like,

I just like, I started, like, I'm fucking 61.

Yeah.

And, you know, it just became too much with the world in general.

But just the idea of having that,

that fundamental dread.

Yeah.

Like

someone recently, because I talk about it a lot and I finally started taking a medicine, but I won't take like an SSRI.

I take this other stuff.

Sure.

This Busporin.

Yeah.

Which is specifically for this type of anxiety.

I'm going to look into it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And but the doc said to me, it's so funny because I do a bit on the new special.

He's like, it usually doesn't work.

And I'm like, that sounds perfect.

but like I just upped the dose and now I'm clammy but uh it's exhausting man yeah but I know that I must have had it my whole life yeah and I know that like I just had

what is it uh 26 years sober congratulations but but like I can't even imagine like that had to have been why I was fucking doing that right you know what I mean like cause like I'm not like a party guy yeah yeah yeah I was just doing it to get level yeah yeah I can relate yeah yeah absolutely Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And but it still happens, and it's just this immediate thing.

And I noticed it last night.

Like, I do it in an instant.

Like, me and my buddy are walking across the street, walking across Fairfax to go to a restaurant that I made reservations at, and there's people out front.

And my thoughts, my first thought is like, oh, fuck.

They're going to give our table or something.

It's going to be a problem.

And I'm two minutes away.

But I got to put myself through the whole.

Yeah.

Oh, we're fucked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm a nightmare to like travel with, you know, like getting on a plane, especially with my girls or, or, you know, it's just like

days ahead.

Totally.

I'm panicked about we're going to be late.

Someone's going to mess something up.

Something's going to go wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's terrible.

Yeah, but then, but once you're on the plane, you're like, all right.

No, it's okay.

Yeah, and meanwhile, everyone's crying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And you're like, what's the matter?

Everything's good.

It's like, you know, put us through.

No, it's all, I'm still here.

We're still here.

It all has been okay.

And there's no reason to believe that it shouldn't continue to be.

I know, but if we, if, if we we didn't do that, then who would we be?

For sure.

Yeah.

So when does the drinking fuck you?

I mean, let's see.

I mean, I think always it was to a degree.

Do you find in retrospect that it was more self-medicating than, oh, let's have a good time?

Yeah, I wasn't like a, I mean, not to say I didn't have good times

while I was drinking and stuff.

Yeah.

But in the end, no, it was very, you know, I was self-medicating.

It was lonely.

Yeah, it was, you know.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Were you like, you know, after you'd shoot, you just go fucking sit?

Yeah, sometimes.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And isolate, you know.

So worse, because when you do that, which is my nature as well, and I guess you're the same.

Like, you know, I've got a couple of friends.

Yeah.

Yeah, though.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, like, ultimately, you're just sort of like, and I do it sober where I'm just sort of like, I don't want to talk to it.

I don't, you know, I'm just going to hang out here.

For sure.

And that just makes it where, and there's also shame involved.

Like, I think the last couple like runs i had where like i knew i shouldn't have been doing it i knew i was lying i knew there was like there was shame and so it was already like it was just trouble man but isn't the up thing is like and i don't know i'm i'm just talking now to you as a guy because like i'm having these type of realizations where like if you look at the arc of my mind

There's something about the shame and the self-judgment that I think is the goal.

You got to look at it.

Yeah.

Right.

Like, you know, like, fine, drinking, that's the problem.

Sure.

But the consistent thing with all the behavior is like, I'm a fucking idiot.

Yeah.

And I feel guilty or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's an interesting thing, too.

I think, like, you got to be careful with that, though, too, because then you get into narcissism.

You're a victim of it.

Yeah, you're like, well, I'm guilty of everything.

You're not guilty of everything.

You're guilty for what you're guilty of.

But like, you know, there's a self-defense.

I think there's periods of shame and guilt that I've been in where I'm like, how could I have done this to the world?

Right.

It's like, oh, what an egomaniac you have to be to think, you know, you've done this to

everybody?

Well, that's that old program saying it's like, you're the piece of shit at the center of the universe.

Right, exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

There's another one I like from the rooms where some guy said once, God doesn't wake up and think he's you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love that one.

You heard that one?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like a great one.

Yeah.

So what did it take for you to finally get over it, get past it?

I think, you know,

I'm hesitant talking about this because a lot of it is to do with my ex and it's not my like place to tell that if she can't story of it.

But it was just watching

I was just really close to losing

everything.

I was not going to see my kids as much as I wanted to.

Who knows if I would be able to show up for work with my parents or my friends.

I was risking it.

Did somebody reach out out to you and make it appealing?

Or was it sort of like, you got to do this or you're out?

I think I did that.

I mean,

I think I knew.

I think I knew.

I mean, what it came down to was

at the core of it, you know,

it was

my kids and showing up for them.

Sure, you know, I think like, or that's what got me in the door.

Yeah.

You know, and then, of course,

became a bunch of other things.

But I think that that fear was enough to

get me to show up.

And you're using the tools and it's fucking working.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's fucking good, right?

Two years in May, maybe.

It's great.

Yeah.

It's fucking great.

Yeah.

Like

the one thing I like about the recovery racket, and I talk openly, you don't have to, but it's just sort of like this idea that they say the obsession will be lifted.

Yeah, yeah.

And it is.

Yeah.

It's fucking crazy.

Yeah, it's amazing.

It's like

you can be around the shit.

It's just like, not even like, I'm not, you know, I'm not even thinking that that's a solution.

Yeah.

What a fucking gift.

Yeah, and I also did it, you know, I did about a year without the rooms.

Right.

When my ex was pregnant with her first, because I was just like, let me fuck.

This is no good.

Yeah, you're just going to white knuckle it.

Yeah, but the obsession remains that way.

You know what I mean?

I wasn't drinking, but I was sure as hell thinking about drinking all the time

or wondering about it.

Yeah, yeah.

Or wondering if I could get away with it at this point.

Or what if I'm on a plane?

Or what if I'm away?

and I wouldn't do it, but it was time-consuming for sure.

The obsession was there.

Yeah, but it's better than just the regular dread.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

It's something specific to dread.

Yeah, I'm not a well back before I fully got sober there and you know, when I was married,

the first time it was like, you know, I'd have to go on the road.

Yeah.

And that would be where it would happen.

So like, it just,

yeah, you have a month, you know, that's how you know you have a problem.

It's like if you have a trip a month away and all you think, oh man.

Totally.

Totally.

Yeah.

That's going to be great.

And then that was scary, too, because I think that was a similar way I was looking at work sometimes.

Sure.

Where I was like, I'll be away.

Yeah, secret land.

And it's my secret time.

And I'll still be able to show up.

I'll be able to do my job.

Sure.

But I'll also have my nights and I can do what I need to do.

Yeah, yeah.

And

that was, you know, and that's just the secrets, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, good for you.

Thank you.

That's fucking a miracle.

Thanks, man.

It's the fucking best.

Sorry, let's talk about wrestling.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

That movie's great.

Oh, thanks, man.

And you're great in it.

Thank you.

Like, that's like a watch it couple of times if you can take it movie.

Sean Durkin, man, yeah.

Holy fuck.

Yeah, yeah.

Now, like, I have to assume, and that was, what, you were already a season or two into the bear?

I think that was between our first and second seasons, yeah.

Now, when you see, like, a role like that, you know, I, I, because, you know, that story, it's even worse.

It's even worse than the one portrayed, exactly.

And it's fucking nuts.

Yeah.

Now, when you, when you take something like that on, because

outside of the work you've done with fucked up guys in the past,

there was such a,

and I think you see it in the bear a bit, and I don't know shameless,

but you have a full backstory of

the reasons why that character

is who he is and why that family is who he is.

So I imagine when you read a script like that, you're like, holy fuck, you know, half this work is done for me in terms of who this guy is.

Like, you know, you don't have to like put a backstory into place because you're living in it.

Sure, sure.

And what was, when you read it, what was your first kind of thought?

I think the tragedy of it was overwhelming.

You know, it was almost unbelievable.

Yeah.

But I had known Sean for a long time.

The director?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Sean produced that same movie after school that I did when I was 16.

So I knew Sean since I was 16.

That's fucking crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I wanted to, you know, I was just excited because I love Sean.

And then it was like a bit of like, oh boy, because I knew that, you know,

not just the, whatever, the physical stuff or, yeah, but, but I just knew everybody was going to be living in a kind of

uncomfortable, yeah, like place and energy for a long time.

And that's always like you take a big breath and

you go.

and that's before and that's before sober time too that is yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so I mean I was in bad shape I was ready you know I was ready to go there

and

but I was I was excited you know I was excited because it was Sean

I was excited to get ripped were you excited to get ripped I was excited to because everybody I don't care you know I think every actor wants to have an opportunity to do a reason physical whatever it is it doesn't have to be getting no it has to be sort of like you're gonna get me in shape yeah exactly okay great And the studio is going to pay for it?

Yeah, yeah.

I'll take it.

Yeah.

But yeah, man, I was excited.

It was a great cast.

Like I said, I loved Sean.

I mean, those were the guys.

And Zach fucking showed up.

Zach showed up big time.

Holy fuck.

And he is a sweetheart.

I don't know if you've ever spoken to him.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

But he's a very, very

sweet, loving guy.

He was great in the movie.

Harris, Dickinson's, like, great.

It was great.

Like, Moira, Holt.

And you work with Chavo.

I work with Chavo.

Yeah, exactly.

I knew that.

Yeah,

I didn't wrestle, but I mean, I knew Chavo.

He was there all the time.

Yeah, yeah.

He's like the guy.

Now, was there anything, because, you know, look, I went into Glow as

not a wrestling fan.

Yeah.

And now my producer, who's like, you know, just a brilliant guy and like a very sophisticated guy, you know, has been a lifelong wrestling fan.

Yeah.

And like, you know, for some reason, I always used to be like, dude, you're such a smart guy.

Why would you?

But he loves it.

Yeah.

And over over time, from doing Glow and from, you know, being in a relationship with my producer, Brendan, you know, I got a way of appreciation of the sort of KFAB experience.

Yeah.

And what it really, how it reflects life and

I imagine acting.

It's like, and right now we live in a wrestling culture politically.

I mean, it's all fight.

Did you?

grow an appreciation for it?

Yeah, because I didn't, I, similarly, you know, I didn't grow up.

That wasn't my thing.

I had friends who really enjoyed it.

Yeah.

But were you one of the, were you the guy who was sort of like, you know, it's fake.

What do you guys, yeah?

A little bit.

I think too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was just like, I don't, you know, I don't, yeah, I didn't get it.

Yeah, yeah.

And then you spend some time with Chavo, and then you hear the way he talks about it.

Yeah.

And the storytelling of it.

Yeah.

And you're like, oh, okay.

Okay.

I'm kind of putting this together a little bit.

And then you think of the physicality of it.

You know, these are athletes, you know, and the way they're they're training.

Of course.

And then I think during that time, there was also something very like punk about it, where they were really putting their bodies on the line in a way that was like violent and interesting.

And punk because it's, it's fucking regional.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, you know, there are these guys with whole wrestling communities

doing these veterans halls.

Yes.

It's so fucking punk rock.

It was like grassroots in this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then I think the big change was for me, yeah, when I was

when I was performing it, which is like, I thought I'm going to get all the moves, you know, or I'm going to get strong enough, or I'm going to be able to jump off this and flip over that.

And that was my focus.

And I was pretty proud of myself for how I was showing up.

And Chavo was like,

you're not paying attention to the story.

You're not performing.

You're not performing.

You're just going through the thing.

And he was like, you look.

Good, like you're doing all the things and it looks right.

Yeah, but it's the moments in between where you're capturing the audience, you're capturing the attention you're telling the story of the you know the baby face and the people and all that stuff and And you're building the suspense in the moments in between if you're just running around and you're whacking each other and you're flipping around and you're just going from move to move It's almost like it's too fast.

You know, they tell you that when you're doing like stunt work in a movie Yeah, I remember in the rental I had to do this thing where I'm like wailing on this guy and I just tried to like hit him as fast as I could and hard as I could and they were like we're not it's not really showing on camera.

It's just weird.

Can you slow it down?

Yeah, yeah.

And I was like, I don't want to because I'm feeling the thing.

I want to do the thing.

And they were just like, slow it down.

Yeah, act.

And I think, yeah, exactly.

And I think that it's a similar thing.

You got to slow it down so people can get connected.

But I have to assume like that, that had some

informative impact on just acting in general.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, to like, because the job is, like, because you're in a movie, it's almost like

a movie within a movie or a play within a movie.

Yeah.

That the context of the theater of wrestling, to have those tricks where you're kind of able to physically and through focus, build suspense around these movements, that's like a fucking whole different level of acting.

Yeah, it's what I imagine like, I don't know, like

going to like clown school or mime or whatever that is.

You're learning to tell a story.

Physically.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

It's great.

And of course, there's value in that for any actor.

It's funny, you're going to have to list Chavo as one of your great acting players.

There you go.

He's on the list.

McAninny, Chavo, Pereira.

Yeah.

So how did you handle it?

Like, how are you handling it in general?

You got pretty big pretty quick.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I think I was really lucky because it didn't feel like that for a long time.

You know, I mean, I was doing Shameless for a long time.

I did my first movie when I was 15.

So you're kind of ready for it.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,

I feel lucky and glad that it was age 30 where I kind of hit it rather than whatever, 19 or 20.

Yeah, yeah.

And

yeah, I think I just have a lot of I had a lot of time and a lot of trying.

And,

you know.

How's the attention, though?

Does it fuck with you?

I mean, you're kind of in that zone of it's a little tricky to walk down the street.

I think there was a couple periods.

I think when the divorce stuff was going on and I was dating somebody who was far more famous than me at that

kind of time after we were getting divorced.

And

yeah, I got a little bit of the,

you know, they were kind of at my house and people were following me around.

How'd you handle that?

You know, I got angry a couple times.

Yeah.

And

that doesn't really do much for you.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think...

That's just giving them meat.

Yeah, and I think,

you know, my publicist who I've been with for a long time was just kind of like,

just be boring.

And I am pretty boring, you know, really.

Yeah.

And she was just like, you just got to wait.

And,

and yeah, like when I'm in LA, my life is pretty simple.

You know, I like to go out to dinner every once in a while.

Well, it's weird here because like there.

It's so common here.

Yeah.

And that, you know, the business has always been here.

So most people are relatively respectful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if not resentful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, but I don't know.

To be honest,

I'm pretty unbothered.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, that's good.

Yeah.

So what happens now?

So you just did, what, the third season of the bear?

The fourth season just came out.

Right.

Are you going back?

We're going to go back.

We're going to do another one in January.

Yeah.

And

yeah, I just did a thing, this thing with Austin I'd mentioned.

What is that?

It's this thing called enemies.

It's very like sort of like.

Is it out?

No, no, no.

We just filmed it a couple months ago.

And it's fun.

It's very like Michael Mann.

Oh, good, yeah.

He did it?

No, no, no.

But he was like a big, you know.

Influence.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And yeah, now

I'm hanging around.

I went on a big, you know, vacation right after I finished that, which was lovely.

And took my, my kids rented a house on the east coast

for the month of

the high and all.

Yeah, this little town called Bellport Village on Long Island.

Oh, on Long Island.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And you just hung out?

Yeah, just hung out.

I had friends out there.

My folks are still in Brooklyn.

They saw my sister, her boyfriend.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah, it was great.

Oh, it's great.

And now we're, you know,

getting ready to

get the Bruce movie out and go back to work.

Yeah.

So the Bruce movie,

how'd you feel about it?

It was very hard.

Well, yeah, especially because he's sitting there the whole time.

But in terms of playing Bruce and doing your own singing,

from what I remember on set, that there were times where Bruce couldn't tell the difference.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, I had not had a lot of experience or any experience singing, playing guitar, any of it.

And so that was

daunting to say the least in the beginning.

And I didn't have, I mean, I had a lot of time, but I didn't have as much time as I would have liked.

You never do, you know.

But I had about six months to kind of.

What's fortunate with those songs, the guitar playing is not like exactly.

It's not a lot of, yeah, the chords are pretty simple.

There's not many of them, and a lot of the songs are in the same.

But the singing was a, you know, a gamble.

So what'd you do?

Just kind of like figure out at first just to mimic it?

Like, do you listen to it?

Yeah.

And then kind of record yourself?

Yeah.

I mean, I worked with this guy, Eric Vitro, who's kind of like the guy.

You know, he helped Austin with the Elvis movie.

He helped Timothy Chalamet with the the Dylan movie.

He's kind of the go-to, you know, and he works with a lot of amazing vocalists and

real singers and performers.

But I got together with him just to

see what I can do or see where we could get at least.

And that's what you start with.

You're just like, can I...

Can I sing?

Can I sing in Key?

Do I have a good ear?

Is all this stuff working?

And then, you know, you try to find a little bit of that rasp and then you kind of try to get the, you start messing around with nasal and

the phrasing.

Yeah, the phrase.

And that phrasing, I mean, the phrasing on that record's tough.

Like, there's some run-on.

Like, it's like, you know.

And,

yeah, so I started with kind of all that.

And then I really have to give Eric credit because he was there to kind of, or I thought he was there to be like, you know, this is how you sing a song.

This is how you make it sound good.

But he would catch me not feeling connected to it and doing what as an actor, I should have just been doing naturally, which is like, what are you talking about?

Yeah, right.

What's going on?

Right.

Right.

Have you written this down a whole bunch?

Yeah.

Just think about, is this

who's Bruce playing?

Or, or, you know, which moment in Bruce's life is this?

You know, all this stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

It should have been simple, but I was so worked up with how does this sound?

Being self-conscious.

And sounding like Bruce.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

um so that was like a break a breakthrough and then you know we pre-recorded and and so that gave me the ability to like a lot of vocalists you know you sing the song for an afternoon yeah and they go ahead and they put together your your greatest right you know what I mean right but it's it's interesting because it's like the same advice Chavo gave you yeah totally how do you tell a story in this format that you are not familiar with totally and I think I'm all worked up in well I'm not familiar with this.

Let me get this move right.

Am I singing in key?

But at the end of the day, I think, yeah,

if it's honest,

whether it sounds just like or looks just like the guy, people will believe it and they'll follow you.

And I remember Bruce was great the first time he

heard one of my pre-records because he was like, you know,

you sound like me,

but you're saying the song, yeah, you know, and you're, you're making the song your own, and you've got your connection with the song.

Yeah.

And I think once he kind of gave me that permission, not just with the music, but in a sense, with the entirety of the film, I feel like that released me from a little bit of the anxiety.

And he did that early on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, okay, so between the bear and shameless and the wrestling movie and this thing, are you ready to come out of the tunnel of, you know, kind of of like existential darkness?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's lonely men is really what it is.

Yeah, yeah.

You know,

and making a movie, making a TV show is already kind of a lonely existence.

Yeah.

So you can use that.

So, yeah, it's right there for you.

But yeah, I'm ready to take it easy on myself for a while.

Well, what do you want to do?

Is the enemies?

Is that a comedy?

No.

No, is that more lonely men?

That's two very lonely men.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what do you want to do?

I don't know.

You know, I mean,

my rule has always been just try to work with people that you admire and you feel like you could learn something from.

That's my real only like, you know, thing.

Yeah.

But yeah, now I'm in a very privileged position where, you know, I'm looking at a couple scripts and there's someone I admire to do with any one of those things.

And so,

so yeah,

I think, you know, there's certainly a searching for something where

I mean, I think you've got

what it takes, and you could just sort of like Bradley Cooper seems to bounce around from format to format.

For sure.

You know, like

it's got to be,

do you feel like there's a risk of being typecast or no?

I don't subscribe to that.

I mean, I think maybe it might have been more of a thing

in generations

before.

but I think a lot of actors you know

they can make sort of careers and interesting careers not doing the same thing yeah but living in a kind of a space yeah you know what I mean yeah and I don't discredit those performers sure at all sure

most of them do take the risks though they'll take a look at a point for sure of course

yeah yeah yeah yeah um anything funny in the new scripts anything funny in the new scripts?

Yeah, I mean,

I'm looking at something I might do at the end of this year, even.

And yeah, it's quick.

It's funny.

There's a lot of wit.

Oh, good.

I wouldn't call it, you know, a comedy.

It's not a comedy.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's certainly not, you know,

it's not a man on the verge.

You know what I mean?

Well, good, because I think you need a break.

Yeah, yeah, creatively.

I appreciate that.

Yeah.

Great talking to you, man.

So good talking to you.

I appreciate it, man.

Yeah, me too.

There you go.

That was great.

He's a good guy.

Again, Deliver Me From Nowhere premieres at the Telluride Film Festival this weekend.

It opens in theaters on October 24th.

Jeremy is nominated for an Emmy for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Comedy for his role in the Bear.

And that's a great show as well.

Hang out for a minute, folks.

Hey, people, on Thursday, I talked to Oscar winner Regina King, who's in the new Darren Aronofsky movie, Caught Stealing.

It's rare that you see a movie where violence isn't necessarily gratuitous, it's just detached from character, just something you expect.

Because all the violence in it is pretty violent.

Yeah, that's what I keep hearing from people.

It's pretty violent.

But I think the reason people respond to that is because it's all very character-driven.

And the frame of the movie is fairly real.

He went out of his way because I lived in that area where he shot for years.

Oh, wow.

I lived right on 2nd Street between A and B.

Okay.

So like walking by Benny's burritos and Kim's video, I'm like, because I knew he had rebuilt it.

But I literally lived on that block for like a couple of years.

Yeah.

And he kind of made it pretty gritty and it seemed like the right time.

And

there was something.

I tell you, once, you know, Liev and

Vincent as the Hasidic Jews,

it's so hard not to see guys doing those characters and wait for laughs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's the opposite.

Yeah.

But there's that one scene with Carol Kane.

I guess you haven't seen it yet.

I haven't seen it yet.

I know.

I can't wait because the feedback

has been really great.

And honestly, when the script came my way,

First,

I said, absolutely, I want to read it when I learned it was Darren.

I mean, there's like

every actor,

you have your list of directors, filmmakers you want to work with.

And I would say everybody,

Darren is in their 10.

Oh, yeah.

You know, I feel like it.

You know, you just respect

just his storytelling abilities so much.

And so then I read the script and I'm like,

Okay, so Darren Aronofsky's doing this story.

Oh, all right.

Yeah.

Because I'm all about

don't be put in a box.

Yeah.

You know, and it's very clear that, you know, you may not call this a comedy, but if Darren Aronofsky is going to do a comedy, this is what the comedy is going to be like.

That's this Thursday's WTF episode with Regina King.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Here's a bit of guitar

that I got through Peter Green, and he got it through a guy I think named

Duster Bennett, is it?

Yes, yes, I believe so.

I'll be playing this on the 10th at Largo with singing and more guitars.

Boomer lives, monkey and lafonda, cat angels everywhere.