Episode 1652 - Cristin Milioti

Lock the gate!

All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.
This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it.

If you're new here, have a seat or don't. Keep running.
Whatever you got to do. Whatever you're doing, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing with your life?

What is it? Hey, I was in New York for the last few days. I want to thank everybody who got out there in the streets and raged on behalf of the open heart.

The open heart, the tolerant, the welcoming, the embracing, the democratic, the persons that see other people as people and pushed back on this fascist shit show. What a fucking...

Not just, it's not even the sad parade of tanks, but it's the force at which the cops and the secret police are operating out there in the streets against people that just want to live,

that just want to live free lives.

It's a fucking nightmare. It's an authoritarian cluster fuck.
Secret police out there in their black cars. God damn it.
Thank you. Thank you, all decent citizens of a once

you know, at least evolving democracy pushing back on this very authoritarian new America. Thank you.
I'm thanking you. I will do my part the best I can.
Fuck fascism. Right? Am I right?

Kristen Miliatti is here. I've seen her in a lot of stuff.
The Sopranos, The Wolf of Wall Street, Palm Springs.

She's also been on the shows How I Met Your Mother and Made for Love, which you can't even find anymore.

She won the Critics' Choice Award for Best Actress in a Limited Series for her performance in The Penguin. And she's an astounding actress.
She's great.

I'd never fully noticed her before until I'm watching this fucking show, The Penguin, which is not really the kind of show I would watch, but I got locked in because I want to see what Colin Farrell was doing.

Then Kristen was like, holy fuck, force of nature, how are you?

So she's on the show today, which I find very exciting. It was great to meet her.

Also, last week, I talked a bit about an article written by Diana Moscovitz for Defector called There Will Never Be Another WTF with Mark Marin.

Now, look, I thought it was a great article, not just because it was about me, because it was well written and her personal experience with this show was moving.

And Diana was gracious enough to do a recording of that piece for us. And we played it in full for full Marin subscribers on last Friday's bonus show.
But here's a bit of it right now.

If WTF had its own philosophy of life, it would go more or less like this. You will start start out young and filled with righteous anger at how unfair the world is.

You will try many things and you will probably fail at them. But that's okay.
Everyone fails. And everyone is hiding shame they believe nobody else will understand.

Everyone gets at least a few bad breaks and some more than a few. But if you hang in there, at some point, you will cease to fail.

At some point, you will get a lucky break. At some point, you will look around and realize that while this might not be the life you envisioned, it's still a good life and one you can be proud of.

You will fuck up and you know what you should do after?

Fucking apologize.

And then at some point after that, you will get older and wiser and realize that your apprehension about Sir Ian McKellen was ridiculous.

You can hear that full recording with a full merit subscription. Just sign up for that by going to the link in the episode description.
And you can read the full piece at defector.com.

A couple other bits of business. Look, you know, as we head into the home stretch in the next few months, if you're not following me on Instagram, go ahead and do that.

I am toying with the idea and leaning towards continuing doing the weekly updates that I mail out. I believe you can get on that mailing list somewhere at wtfpod.com.
But people seem to like those.

People come up to me and go, are you still going to do the updates? Are you still going to do the dispatches?

sure why not keeps me writing keeps me engaged but uh i was in new york and uh i had a good trip i had a very nice trip and i have to be honest with you i love doing jimmy fallon show all right being a panel guest was such an important part of my life for so long when i was coming up i used to do conan all the time and i i i talked to him when i was in new york he happened to be up at sirius and he was finishing up an interview with bob odenkirk and he said come on in, let's knock one out.

So I did. But I mean, just being a guy on panel like, you know, Richard Lewis or like Jay Leno on Letterman, I just, it was, it was a very important

and very thrilling thing for me. And I, and I hardly do it anymore.
So look, and I'm not talking about being a guest on a podcast. There is a specific thing.

I'm talking about being a guest on the tonight show. And look, I know it doesn't mean what it used to, and the media landscape is a scattered shit show, but the context is still what it is.
Okay.

And you go out there, there's a way to do it. Some of it's riffing, some of it's

stuff you prepared. But I'm telling you, man, Jimmy is a good host.
I don't know what you think of him. I don't care really.
He's a great audience. He's excited.

He doesn't, he likes when you throw him curveballs. And I was out there and we were going at it.
And I was riffing a bit. And he's just a good audience of one.
And his audience is good.

He's fully engaged in the thing. And it just makes it a fucking blast.
So I enjoyed that and you can watch that somewhere.

The Fallon appearance. It's out there.
And also I was there to screen the documentary, Are We Good? And I do have to admit that it was screening on Saturday. That was the day of the protests.

And so I was getting ready to go to a theater to watch a movie about me while all you good people who went out into the streets and raged against the machine of fascism with open hearts and tolerance and decency, I was in a room full of people watching a movie about me.

And I know some of you are like, well, yeah, that adds up, Mark. But my heart was with you and it's with you now.
And I'll be out at the next one. I promise there will be a next one.

But the screening of the documentary, it went very well.

It was only the second time I'd seen it in front of an audience. And

it was great. I mean, it was really great.
It moved me because there's a lot of stuff with Lynn in there.

There's a lot of stuff that really got me squirting out a few tears and feeling the feels again.

And when something goes well, it's funny, to me, when something goes well, it means it got laughs in the funny places and it got feels in the feely places. And it just really played well.

And I want to thank everyone who came out for that.

It was a great night. And then after the...

After the screening, Tracy Letz, who is my friend, moderated a conversation with me and Steve Feinarts, the director. And that was also pretty fucking amazing.

I mean, talking to Tracy in any situation is amazing for me.

And to be honest with you, I didn't know where he was going to go with the questions, but he had kind of a totally unique point of view about

what the film was about.

So the assumption, and it wouldn't be a wrong one, is that it's about processing grief. It is that, me processing grief, which includes me trying to figure out how to do comedy about it, right?

So, Tracy,

when he saw it that night, he thought the film was about work, about the work, about the work of an artist.

Now, I rarely call myself that, and you guys know that, and I rarely, rarely see myself that way.

I guess I know I am one, but it seems to be pretentious to call myself one. I've always felt that, you know, throughout my life.
I'd rather just go with a comic.

But looking at the film as a film about work was helpful to me in reframing my life a little bit because I'm watching my life unfold in bits and pieces over the course of three years in this film.

And my work is really how I process everything.

This conversation right now being part of that, whether it's on the podcast or it's on the stage, my life, certainly up to this point, has been about processing it through my work.

And the work is kind of my life to the point where I don't really live a full life.

I mean, there are other reasons for that, but those are also what I process in the work, the other reasons, the reasons why I don't live a full life.

And I just put it all out there. And I just kind of had this weird realization.
It's like the reality of my life is

sort of like a panicky farce. And the work that I

do

gives it definition and it attempts to make it relatable as I work it out, to make it real for me and for the audience and just to put it out there. Does that make sense?

But all this sharing of it is a bit depleting. I got to be honest with you, because the sharing of it is the work and the work leaves me chronically exposed.

And then I have to incorporate that into how I live. It starts eating itself and it stagnates the life I'm living and I'm running out of time, people.

What am I trying to say? The only choice I have

after 61 years of being alive is to accept what I've called a life and try to live it differently if that will bring me some peace. Ease up on the panic, the compulsivity, the urgency, the anger.

Find some space and be who I am now. and see where that takes me creatively.
I have no idea how to create outside of myself. I am the center and project of the creation.
And I just feel like

the space that I'm going to be afforded, you know, if I don't fall into a pit of me,

is an opportunity to start putting stuff together that doesn't rely entirely on my immediate reaction to whatever is happening right now in my life.

I do not know if I have the discipline to do other things. I don't have much patience.
And I don't always think in a fictional realm.

But I think that's really some of where the next piece of me has to go creatively. Okay, let's bring it back down to Earth.

I would say, honestly, on some level, one of the high points, if not the high point of the trip was going to the Museum of Natural History in New York City with Kit.

She'd never been there, and I hadn't been there since I was a kid. So when we decided to go, I just, I couldn't, like, I was like, we're going to see the blue whale.

We're going to see the big blue whale. They have this giant life-size model of a

blue whale hanging from the ceiling, and it's spectacular. I remember when I was a kid just waiting to walk into that room.
Where's the room with the whale? It's a huge blue whale.

And we're going through all the dioramas and the, you know, Asian history, African history, you know, Indian history, you know, a little bit of Armenia in there, all the outfits.

And then we're going through the animals of Africa, all the stuffed sad, you know, taxi-dermed animals. But Kit kept saying, look, it was a different time and they were doing it for research.

It was still a little sad.

And it's just all the work. All the work that goes into categorizing and researching and studying and putting everything together, the whole world, its peoples and its life forms,

the years and years of exploration and excavation. It's just, it's all in this museum.

And then I started to feel like this is, all this work is exactly the kind of work that this fascist culture wants to shut down, that this revisionary fucking shit show wants to erase.

All this stuff that was so important to define the world we live in and where we come from and all the different kinds of people and animals is just the stuff that these entitled fucking morons want to

disappear.

Isn't that weird? I realize that there's an entitlement to stupidity.

The entitlement of stupidity requires everyone just to be as stupid as you are.

Because if everyone isn't, then it's a threat to you. And that is the most fucking malignant type of entitlement there is.
The entitlement of ignorance is a fucking human disaster.

Because it requires that everybody shut the fuck up and be just as ignorant as the entitled ignorance.

Look, entitlement is annoying on any level.

But this aggressive, entitled ignorance and stupidity, holy fuck. But, anyways,

I just had a great time at the museum. I mean, looking into that, I think they're called dioramas.
The one Noah Bombeck was affected by it as well.

The squid, the giant squid attacking the sperm whale, because it's all dark in there. And it's just one little exhibit.
But man, it's haunting. And that vibe just shatters you when you're a kid.

And I got in front of that thing, and it was just as fucking

terrifying. and it all came back to me it was it was great and then the dinosaur bones

the dinosaur bones

oh my god the big dinosaur bones

kid's a dinosaur freak and and i'm you know you can't not just be holy shit holy fucking shit the size of these things just wandering around giant fucking lizards and sharks and fish and turtles all kinds of stuff pterodactyls But there's like three huge halls of dinosaurs.

And we were walking through one. I'm like, whoa, you know, that's big.
That's cool. Holy shit.
It's amazing that could fly. And I found myself, you know, just going to myself, like, fuck,

where are the triceratops? Where are the triceratops? And we go through one big room and

it was awesome, but no triceratops. Then we get to another room, there's giant other things, skeletons.
I'm looking around. These are fucking scary and cool.
Where's a triceratops?

And then finally in the third room, boom, boom.

Several triceratops heads and bodies. I guess like, and you know, I guess honestly,

I am and always have been a triceratops guy. I don't know, you know, who you are or what your dinosaur was.
I think I might have gone through a Stegosaurus period, but very little head.

And I like those other ones, the lizards with the big fan on the back. Those are cool.
Never been a T-Rex guy. But pterodactyl a little bit, a little bit.
But really, when it comes right down to it,

it's that Triceratops. And then the one with the armor on it, the one that, you know, I guess was the great, great, great, great-granddaddy of the armadillos.
But I'm a triceratops guy.

Now you know that about me. Now you know.

All right, look, you guys, Kristen Miliotti.

is here and she's great. The full series of the penguin is streaming on Max.
And

go watch her other stuff too. I mean, she's really a terrific actor.
And this is me meeting her and talking to her.

Do you play? I don't play guitar, sadly. No? I wish I did.

I've tried. I play piano, but I don't play guitar.
Are you good at piano? I'm decent, but actually, probably not anymore because I'm so out of practice.

But there was a time in my life where I was decent. Does it come right back to you?

No,

because I don't, I can't read music. Yeah.
So it's like I really have to

sit with it for a while. But then sometimes it sometimes it comes back.
I had to like perform at a fundraiser a couple years ago. Yeah.

And I had to like play in front of a giant room of people and I was so terrified. And I practiced for like two weeks and I it it came back.
Yeah. And then I actually felt so, I was like, oh,

I could live at a piano. I just, it took me a second.
Doesn't it feel good? To play and see. Yeah.
It's the best feeling on earth. I know.
It's my number one favorite thing.

Isn't that weird that it wasn't necessarily what you pursued? I know. Well, in a way, like a little bit.
I mean, I was in this show for a long time. This is like when...

I think I was just about to go do it when we were at some damage.

I'm so mad. I didn't remember that name.
You shouldn't be mad. I was really, it was like such a whirlwind.
It was like two people. What did you play in Sweepwalk with me? His sister.

Wow. Yeah.
Two people you've never seen

look less related.

Oddly, that's not true. His sister kind of looks like you.
Oh, really? I feel like I'm so dark, and then he's like blue. Well, his sister is.
Like that. I didn't know that.
Gina. Like,

I remember her from back in the day. But yeah, she definitely looks Italian.
Wow. He does not.
Yeah, he doesn't. So, okay, you played the sister when we were in Sundance.
Yes.

And then right after that, I did this show for a year.

Was that

the one with the music guy? Yes. Was that great? It was great.
Once. Once.
Yeah. And you had to sing and do something.
Every night and play piano. Wow.
It was great.

Yeah, I mean, I play guitar and I don't, I never sought to do it professionally. Yeah.
So, like, what I usually say is that means my guitars aren't sort of vessels of broken dreams. Oh, my God.

They're just,

they're something I like doing. Yeah.
I actually,

I, I, it's, when I was practicing for that thing, I was just thinking about that fundraiser or whatever. I was reminded when I had to play every day and sing and practice this song.

I was like, oh my God, this makes me 500 times of a better, a better person. Yeah.
Oh, really? Like, why aren't I doing this every day? Because it opens you up, right? It opens you up.

There's a weird vulnerability to music. Yeah.
That, you know, I mean, it took me years to be confident to sing in front of people. Yeah.
But just to do it,

like, I can't do it without getting emotional. For the first few times that I did it,

I'd cry. Oh my God.
Because it is the most open you can be with someone. It's true, right? It is.
And I feel that way about,

like, I get really emotional with harmonizing because I think it's like the most beautiful thing

that can happen with someone else. I mean, like, there's many, you know what I mean, like in music.
And like, it's just, um, do you know that song, uh, the Hammond song by the Roaches?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe he's saying it.
It's like,

no.

It's these sisters from New Jersey, and it's this incredible song, but it's like a really difficult. I remember the roaches.
Yeah, it's a really difficult, like five-part harmony.

It's really dissonant. Yeah.
And a really good friend of mine, she did a concert at Joe's Pub a couple years ago and five of us got up and sang it.

And I thought I was going to absolutely, like, I was so emotional, and it was so beautiful. And even like when we were rehearsing it at my apartment, like, I just was,

I just, my joy level was so markedly

yeah, it's crazy because it is sort of a way of communicating and connecting without any pretense, really.

And it just happened. Like, I can't even watch musicals because I just cry for no reason.
Yeah, I'm not, I love musicals. And I think that like when they're good,

there is nothing. Yeah.

Like, are you, do you know Westside's story pretty decently? Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, there's these two songs in that, Something's Coming and Maria, like when he first falls in love with Maria.

And he's like singing those huge notes as he walks the streets at night. And I was like, oh, that's what it's like to fall in love.
Like you get cracked open. Yeah.

And it's so, and the way like the orchestra swells, I don't know. I just, yeah, to sing with someone is so intimate.
Yeah, it's

crazy. I feel like I should do it more, but I try to avoid too much joy.

Cool.

Yeah. I don't know why.
Who needs it? Well, I kind of need it, but I feel like

on stage, you know, the vulnerability and that feeling is sort of, it has a context. Yeah.
But just moving through life like that, it

feels a little too open. Too open.
Okay, gotcha.

I like it. You know, well, I do concerts from time to time in New York, and

I do sometimes like, I'm so.

What kind of concerts? I'll do

like covers of stuff. It'll just be me and a band and I'll play the piano.
Yeah, I love doing it. I don't do it enough because they're really hard to put together.

What covers do you do?

Oh, all my girls, like Fiona Apple,

Fiona Apple, Phoebe Bridgers.

I wouldn't touch Joni. I would be too afraid.
It's a lot going on with Joni. There's a lot going on with Joni, and I would just be, I actually also probably wouldn't get through it.
Yeah.

I don't think. I would start to just fall apart.
Really? I think so. I had an experience where I was playing a very long Bob Dylan song before I really had that much confidence.
Yeah.

And it's a horrible thing to be on stage without the confidence to get through. Oh, yeah.
Because part of you wants to shut down and just kind of like

detach from what's happening.

And it was like about two-thirds of the way through the song, and I was just sort of like, there's so much more of this song left. Yeah, and then you're gonna.

But then I love when I see that. You do.
You know, yeah, if I'm like watching someone perform, I really like, because I, I really,

it feels, I like the intimacy also of like, of being there. It's so of that moment.
Yeah, yeah. And I really like appreciate when someone is like, oh,

I'm going going through it up here.

Yeah, it adds to it. I did a show at Largo once, and I was so excited because I'm a huge Fiona Apple fan, and I know John.

The cornet,

the new Argo or the old one on Fairfax. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And this was like right before the pandemic. And I,

you know, really am aware of its lore. And because I'm not, I don't live in LA, like,

I love her song Largo, and I like know the sound of that piano so well. And I did one of my concerts there and like 30 people showed up.

I was like, oh my God. Oh God.
And then like in real time, I just like kind of came unraveled. Like as I tried to do this show.
So that to honor Fiona. Sure.

Well, like, I mean, yeah, I just do a whole career unraveled. Just unraveled and like was so.

And then I made the decision in the moment. I was like, I'm going to engage with this.

And I think a couple times at the piano, I was like, I'm sorry, I'm really struggling up here and then but it was like yeah echoing through that giant space it was so humiliating yeah it was I or you know what I don't want to use the word humiliating it was it was humbling yeah to be like wow no one showed up and I opened I like ripped open my chest and I thought it was gonna get them to my side and it just alienated them further seriously yes you were are you sure about that it's hard to read 30 in a big room it's hard to read 30 in a big room because they're already like wow we're the only ones here I know and everyone was like it's raining that's why and i was like that's the worst the excuses for why a show's not why a room's not filled up you know what it uh like a couple friends had come and afterward they were so sweet but they were like how you doing do you know what i mean

he's like oh no

oh don't ask me that

not good job you were great are you okay

yeah it's just that when they dropped that voice so that like no one else in the lobby can hear well not that there was anyone there but

But did people know you to be doing that kind of stuff?

Not out here. I don't.
Well, I mean, in New York,

I do shows at Joe's Pub and I've done them for years. And it has like a built-in

crowd, an audience. And I think, yeah, I really.
Oh, did you go in all excited? To the Largo? Yeah. Of course I did.
Oh my God. I was doing sound check at the piano and I was like, wow, this is

the piano.

This is the best.

And then they came back like right at like five minutes. And they were like, look,

no one's here. And I was like, oh my god, oh my God.

And they were like, so what we've done is we've sort of moved everybody to the front two rows. And I was like, that doesn't help.
Oh boy. And they were like, we can't hold the box office anymore.

Like it's 10 minutes. Was it just you? Yeah.
No band. I had a guitar player with me.
Oh.

But I mean, on some level, you can find unity with the other, you know, with the guitar player. Yes.
And he was so sweet that I did. I mean, I just, I remember just crumbling at that piano.
Yeah.

Oh my God. Yeah, it's actually, it's like one of those things that I want to think about.
It actually makes my entire

body get hot and like so embarrassing. Isn't it crazy recalling bombs? Yes.
Yeah, it's terrible. It's the fucking.
Yeah, and I have a filing cabinet full of them. What do you mean? Of bombs? Yeah.

Yeah, just like being alive. Yeah.
Oh, right. Of the times, of the moments in your life.

And just humiliating.

Yeah, just like a shame filing cabinet. Wow, in your head.
Yeah, I mean, yeah. Sure.
Yeah. I try to go there at least once a day.

I really try to not to, but it's those things that come up at like two in the morning where you're like, oh, yeah. Remember five years ago?

Yeah. But in comedy, oh my God.
Well, I don't know how you. The bombing is, you know, there's, you know, it's a weird thing about that.
Yeah.

Yeah, because at some point it never feels, it always is terrible. Yeah.

You know, it happens less as you get older. Right.
But at some point you have to factor it into part of the job.

Yes. But it's still what I've, you know, like I've done a lot of really bad theater.
Yeah. Like a lot.
Where you can hear the seats flip up because people are leaving. Cause why are we

that or like

and but at the end of the day like

it wasn't my it wasn't like I was up there talking about myself. Right.
So like with stand-up, I really am like, how do you do? It was, it was humiliating enough.

I was on a play once where I was like in a babushka with a little shovel at the end, like reading a letter and in like a spotlight, and I had to like dodge gunfire. And like it was so embarrassing.

And I would, that's when the seats would start like flapping up. But I was at least like, well,

I mean, maybe I'm doing such a terrible job, but I'm not here being like, so I'm originally from New Jersey. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, I'm not me.
I don't know how you do it. I'm not me.

But there is that moment of realization where, like, the same thing with that long Bob Dylan song. Even if you're in character, you're like, woof.

Yeah. Yeah.
Woof. Woof.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, when's this going to be over? Yeah.
As I've gotten older, what happens now when I'm bombing is that, and it doesn't, it's not, it really doesn't happen.

I can, you know, get something out of the moment. Usually that'll save me.
But there is

a point. It usually happens pretty quickly in a short set where you just know the audience isn't going to go all the way.
Yeah. So there's going to be this level.

And depending on that level, like I remember I was at the comedy cellar and I hadn't been there in a long time. And I was feeling pretty confident, but I know that room's difficult in general, really.

And what happens was, you know, you've got the tools to kind of survive it. But

when it's not going well for me, I just feel this like sweat starting to happen, like on the back of my neck. Yeah, it feels sometimes like a hot helmet that's coming over the back.

Yeah, and you're just sort of like, well, that's happening. Yep.
And

however I'm hiding it, just being here, my body is reacting. Yes.
I mean, a lot of times when you've done a play for a long time,

and actually it's kind of the part, it's one of the, I love doing theater. I really am like kind of jonesing to get back.
It's been a while, right?

It's been a while, and I really, I love it so, so much. But when you do a show like over and over, you can sometimes, you really learn like who's when it's with you.

And there were so many times where, especially like once was like a two and a half hour

play. But that's all, that's a lot of music.
It's a lot of music, but like you could feel within the first 20 minutes, you'd be like, ooh,

they're not on this ride. And then it's like, well, we're here for the next two hours.
Yeah. I mean, rarely, that show was so sort of like universally beloved, but there were definitely performances.

But, you know, sometimes it's not because they're not on the ride that she's. That's true, too.
They're just, they're just, they're in it. Yeah.
But they're not giving you what you need. Yeah.

And that's a fundamental misunderstanding on their part.

Yeah. Didn't you know?

To meet the performers' needs. Exactly.
What do you think this is? Yeah. These people have been trying their whole life to be loved.
Yeah. So get together.

Do your part as a fucking audience. Yeah.

But I also kind of like,

I feel like that's the fun challenge of those like long runs. I mean, that was like, I did that for a year, which I don't, I don't know if I could do that again.

That was over 500 performances and it was like. But to be locked into the same thing, I mean, even as a comic, I mean, you got the same bits, but you're always, it's fluid.

Yeah. You know, you can just add, I can add stuff in.

i can change it up i can make decisions i don't make anything just start riffing just start ripping and vamping yeah no but like i i do remember that like toward the end because you do it so many times like there were times where i experienced this like incredible feeling of like I knew the words so well and I knew the music so well that I could like let go.

And it felt like

actually, I was like, whoa, this is so, like, it's just kind of like moving through me. Hyper-present.
Cool. Yeah.
Oh, that's good. And then other days I'd be like, I don't know what my next line is.

And I hate this. This is not very professional, but like the times that I've been on stage and someone has forgotten a line.
Yeah. There's nothing funnier.
Yeah. Oh, and it's got to be the best.

So you're just like. They're looking at you terrified.
Yeah. And you're just like, oh, like the veil has been lifted.
And now I just want to giggle. This is crazy.
Do you laugh? Yes. Yeah.

And have you laughed in like really heavy plays?

Yeah. I laughed once.
One time, actually, not just keep talking about once. I just like, I did so many performances at that.

It's a whole life. It's a whole life.
It's a year and a half or something. But there was like a scene where one of the guys on the show, he like rips these like

warm-up pants off. Yeah.
And he's in these like little shorts. And it was like St.
Patrick's Day or something. And he wore this like weird green underwear.

And just because you're so not used to something like that happening. Yeah.
And he did it. And I laughed so hard we had to stop.

The show. Really? Yeah.
And every, and then it was like that thing where like everyone was like, ha ha ha, that's funny. And then it it became like

stop it. Yeah.
Beardrop. I couldn't stop it.
I couldn't stop it. But it didn't bring the audience back around.
Yeah. I mean, but I think they were,

they were already in it, I think. I don't remember.
But yeah, I mean, it's, I'm like always this close. Yeah, it's weird.
You know, I think that

that.

connects you the the audience likes the vulnerability of the the the immediacy of it but then like they you know you kind of fuck their head up they're like why can't we have more of that like there's so much crowd work going on with comedy now like people talking to the audience.

It's like, you're ruining it.

We have to have some separation. Yes.
You can't, they can't be part of everything. I know.
Because then you're just beholden to their silly. It would make that would make me very nervous.
What?

That crowd work? Yeah. Well, I can do it, but then it's like once you do that, then they're like, it's about us.
Me, sure. And you're like, no, it's me.
That's right. Exactly.
I prepared stuff. Yeah.

So, yeah.

So, like, when did you start? Wait, Cherry Hill, New Jersey? That's where you're from? Yeah. That's, but that's like Philly.
Philly. Almost.
Yeah. Yeah, because

my people are from northern Jersey. Oh, really? Where? Like

near, I guess what's the big city around there? Wayne. Wayne.
Pompton Lakes. I don't know where.
Bergen County. Berger County.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
But that's a whole different New Jersey.

It seems like there's different Jerseys. There's a lot of

Philly Jersey. Beach Jersey.
Yep. And then up there in the like rural Jersey.
Yes. I grew up in Philly, Jersey, but then my whole family is from Atlantic City.

So it's, I grew up like Beach, Jersey, and then Philly. Yeah, a lot of my people were from Asbury.
Yeah. Yeah.
Of Asbury. Yeah.
So

you were going to Atlantic City when you were a kid?

I was going to like Ocean City, Margate, around there, which is also like so different now. Everything got like raised and made into mansions, and I haven't been back.
Isn't that weird? It's so weird.

Because I remember Asbury Park and Atlantic City just being garbage.

Just

before

it was just a beat up kind of like boardwalk. It was really beat up.
Yeah, and there wasn't like there was no real activity there. It was just these old ghosts of buildings.
Which I loved.

Like Ocean City had this like little amusement park that was so dangerous. So did Hasbury had one.

And we would go all the time. Yeah.
And it was so like, you know, it was truly like being inside of a Springsteen song or something. And I loved it.
Yeah, yeah.

And those rides, it's like I went out to Coney Island to ride the Cyclone with.

And it's just like, it's the worst roller coaster in the world. I went there last summer with someone.
and you did? Yeah, a friend of mine. We were like, let's have a night at Coney Island.

And I, the cyclone was closed because there had just been a thunderstorm. We got on this ride called the Tickler.
It was like already upsetting. Yeah.
And I got so scared, I screamed myself hoarse.

Really? Because I just was like, I. But you're afraid the ride's going to break.
I thought the ride was going to break. And the tickler really tries to like almost slam you into a pole.

And I just kept screaming, I don't trust this. And I really, truly terrified myself out of a voice.
Isn't that wild? Yeah. And I was like, I don't know if I I can.

It's not controlled terror like some of these newer rides where you're like, yeah, it's pretty well built.

Those, you know, I like a ride in theory because I'm like, wow, this is the closest I'll get to flying. Yeah.
But like, I don't, can it all? What if a screw? Yeah.

I don't want to go like that. I get, no.

It's such a rarefied way to go.

It's such a, you just win the stupid lottery. How the fuck can you die on a ride? I know.
I get that on planes now because like I just assume that all the controllers have been fired. Yeah, I know.

I'm a terrible flyer anyway, but yes, as of late, it's been very difficult to just picture one guy in the tower going, I can't do this myself.

Exactly. Yeah.
The ride sings, I just went on a ride recently because I decided that

Like I had

a wife once who was into roller coasters. So I'd go on them.
And somehow I'd forgotten that I never liked them.

And I went on a ride. We were doing some bad guys press and Rockwell wanted to go on

one of the rides at Universal. And it was the little roller coaster one.
It was, what the hell was it? I've never been there. It was a very short ride, and it was, now it's a mummy ride.

It's the mummy thing. It's like the movie? Yeah, and it happens in the dark.
Niche.

Well, yeah, well, that's what Universal is. And it's, it's, but, like, I got so nauseous.
Yeah. I'm like, what the fuck is the thrill of this? I was fucked up for the whole day.
Yeah, I know. Squeezy.

I, um, a million years ago, when I was 18, I, I worked at Hershey Park for a summer. You did? And I was a singer/slash dancer, dancer in real light quotes.
Yeah.

And one of the things that they, like, it was, it was a horrible summer.

But one of the things they offered as like a perk was that you would have one day where you could come and ride all the rides for free.

And I think I came on my one day off and was like, got to get these rides in. Yeah, yeah.
And got so sick. Yeah.

Cause I, I, like, and I was 18, like, I should have been able to, but it, I got, like, my neck got hurt. I was so nauseous.
I was exhausted. I got, like, slammed around all day.
Yeah. Yeah.

And like the heat while chocolate is getting pumped through the vents. Like it's disgusting.
Oh my God. Yeah.
So that was your first show business gig? Yeah.

That was my first, one of my first show business gigs.

It was right after, after my freshman year of college, we all, like a bunch of us, like went and it was like a big open audition for like cruise ships and amusement parks.

And all my friends got, got it, and I didn't. On the ships? On the ships and in Hershey Park.
So you didn't get this. I didn't get it.
And I went home devastated. I was like, wow.
Yeah.

And then someone broke their ankle and they caught

at Hershey. It's better than the cruise ships.
Can you be on a boat? You can. No, but like, don't you get nauseous? Oh, yeah.
Oh, me? Yeah. Well, I would never get on a cruise.

Cruises freak me out because like it's all

in the water. It's just a giant bathroom.
Yeah. Isn't it? Sure.
Don't we know that now? Well, yeah, it's not, it doesn't feel safe

on the bacterial level. And also kind of since Titanic, I'm like, we shouldn't be doing this.
Have you seen some of those boats where you're like, how does that even, like, They're literally hotels.

Yeah. Yeah.
No, I went on. I was way too anxious.
I went on one with my for my grandmother's birthday at some point in my life. And I was a grown-up.
And it was just, you just walk around and eat.

Yeah, I don't. Yeah.
But, but I get nauseous on boats too. Yeah.
Immediately. Yeah.
Oh, you're lucky. But you felt like you needed to go get nauseous on rides at least once.

It was better than every day on a boat. Oh my God, I wouldn't have done it.
Yeah. So how, did you come from like a big Italian clan? No.
Oh. No.
We're just like Americans in New Jersey. Oh.
No.

No feast of them whatever fishing. Like, no, it would just be,

no. I mean, you know, my dad's side is my grandfather was Italian.
Yeah.

And then. Oh, so you're not all Italian? No.
What's the other part? Belgian. Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah. And then my mom is like Irish and Czech.
But I, you know, yeah. So it's like a real.

Yeah, but you've got enough Italian in you to do the Italian thing. Well, sure.

That's a pretty strong thing to think. You can be cast as Italian.
Yeah, I can. Although, you know, I've never been to

Greece before. And recently, I've like had a couple of interactions with people who are like, I know a lot of Miliadis in Greece.
You're Greek. Really? Yeah.
You never did the 23 and me thing?

I don't. I feel like, is it, I don't know why.

It's like when people are like, are you going to get your dog's DNA tested? I'm like, no, he's a dog. Yeah.
Well, yeah, but you're not a dog. I know, but I'm like, I know.
I'm just curious.

A dog's not walking around going like, who am I? What is my?

Yeah. I don't know.
There's something about it where I'm like,

leave it a mystery. Yeah.
Yeah. I was hoping for some Viking, but I didn't, I just got juice.

Zero Viking. Zero.
Just 99.9% possibility.

Maybe I'll do it. Yeah.
Well, I think they went bankrupt. You're going to have to try to get yourself on that finding your root show.
I would love to be on that show. That show's so emotional.

Yeah, I did it. You did? Yeah, it's crazy.
Did you cry?

No, I didn't cry that much

because

like most of my stuff,

there a some lunatic great-great-grandfather yeah who uh made the news a lot where he where he lived down in the Carolinas you know for being I was able to track my dad's bipolar to that guy

and then they and then on the other side they they just went he said he went back as many generations as they could or or more than they'd ever been able to into like Russia yeah to track my uh patriarch or I think it was the my dad's father's line yeah and it yeah I mean mean, how emotional is it?

Like, he was a tailor. Yes.

I know. I think about this, you know,

there are, I have so many moments in my life that I'm just

overwhelmed by that I like, I'm able to do this. Yeah.

Or just like those crazy career moments where you're working with someone who you have grown up admiring or something and you're just like, whoa, this life is like, what, what a,

what a miracle. Yeah.
And yeah, sometimes I'll be like, and my grandparents

escaped war. And like, we're in the depression.
And like, it's

how were we, it's incredible. Well, that's a nice way to frame it.
That like somehow or another, like, how did I get here from there? Yeah. Yeah.
I, I, yeah. I mean, the struggles were different.

Totally. But, like, I have an apartment that I got with being

playing make-believe. Yeah.
It's incredible. So that's gratitude there.
Yeah. And like, you know, it's just, yeah.
Well, that's good.

Like, it's good that if you, do you live in in that or is that something you have to kind of make yourself do?

Depends.

I wouldn't say. I'd say that it,

sometimes I do have to really be like,

like, hey, but that's not because of, I think that's just because of being alive. And it's like, especially right now, you look around the world and you're like.
It's the fucking worst.

It's the worst. And why does someone get this life and why does someone get this life? Sure.
There's no rhyme or reason. And it's devastating.

Yeah, totally. But then you have to lean into the sort of like, but I'm telling stories.

But I'm telling stories for a giant conglomerate. Yeah.
But it makes people happy.

Yes. And I do think that like, you know, I don't know.

It's like.

Always think about that.

I get incredible joy from like when I go see concerts and when I go see, you know, certain plays and certainly when I watch movies as well. And so I do think that there is like,

and especially like growing up,

like songs and movies were like what helped me figure out how I was like feeling about certain things.

Well, yeah, I've never leaned on it more in my life than right now in this sort of political and cultural moment. Yeah.
The need for,

especially if it's great,

you know, to be engaged with a story that. to, you know, reveals humanity or moves.
Yeah, and all that stuff.

It does feed you a certain

human thing that you're not going to get from the world right now.

Well, I think it reminds me of, and this is actually like what you're talking about with music and singing with someone, like not to put too, I don't know, like when I hear a certain song or if I see something and it reminds me that like humanity is good.

Like just in the same things when like my interactions with my loved ones, I'm like, oh, right, human beings can be like really, really good.

Because I think when I look at what's happening, I'm like, what are we, we're just always evil?

Well, they can go bad. Yeah, but why, but so many go bad.
Yeah, because

their brains have been fucked by their phones and this never-ending

pummeling of propaganda that's exploiting their misery and empowering them to be horrible. Yeah.
Yeah. There you go.
We figured it out. We figured it out finally.

But that's the thing about theater. Like, because I always wrestle with that, you know, this idea that theater is vital to the community and all that kind of stuff because it's so insulated now.

Right. I mean, you got got these Broadway shows that become kind of a ride at the amusement park.

No, for sure.

But challenging plays and plays that really explore humanity and character, I mean, it's not like they get necessarily huge audiences all over, but there is that thing that we're talking about, that the vulnerability and the connection with a group of people that is essentially human and happening in front of them,

it really is powerful. It is.
And I think it does change people to a degree, or at least re-engage them with what's important in life. And it plucks you out of your isolation.
Yeah.

It just like asks you to be together. That's how you engage with something.
And it's like, it's incredible. Yeah.
And I think it's pretty noble work.

When I was touring this last stand-up show before I shot the special, you know, because I'm pretty lefty and like my audience knows who I am. And there was this real feeling that it was

community service. It was important to get all these isolated, frightened people

and feeling powerless into one room so that they could at least feel seen and part of something. Yeah.
And have some like relief too. And like having that and then being able to laugh.

Yeah, it's such a drag that all we can do now is like give people relief. Yeah, I know.
Do you know what I mean? It used to be proactive, like some part of like

an evolved progression towards something better. Now it's just sort of like, oh, this still exists.
Thank God. Yeah, I know.
God damn it. What are we going to do? Let's fix it.
Can we fix it here?

We can fix it by the end of this. So you have siblings? I have a younger brother.
Just two of you? Just two of us.

What business was your family in?

My mom is a banker, and my dad does I.T. stuff like programming for

a law firm who makes sure that all their programs are talking to each other and up and running. And my brother's a musician.
He's a brilliant bassist. Oh, bass.
Bass. Those guys are important.
Yeah.

Yeah, they are. They really hold it down.
Yeah, the quiet bass guy. The rhythm section is very important.
Yeah. Why the lunatics jump around.
But he's not quiet.

He's like one of the funniest people I've ever met. But on bass, though, you've got to kind of like

be, you've got, you're the backbone of the whole thing. Oh, right.
You're not like shredding. Yeah.

There's some shredders. He does.
I mean, he does. He can do it.
He does like a like a. Is he in a combo or a band? He's in a band, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Are they doing all right?

They're doing really good. Yeah.
Yeah.

Crickets and cicadas. Um, sort of around like Philly and New Jersey.
And yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's all original stuff.
Um, some of its covers, um, and then some of it's original.

They got records out? Yeah. Yeah.
I think, yeah. I'm good.
Yeah. And so when do you start doing this ridiculous job that we do?

When did I start? I started like,

I mean, I knew I wanted to be... Like, when was my first professional? No, I mean, like, when did you get the bug? Oh, I got the bug early.
Yeah. Just because

I love movies and I love...

like singing and I love so I was like one of those kids

and I watched a lot of movies with my dad that like like weren't for kids. Yeah.

Good parenting. Good parenting.
Yeah. Like a lot of Cone Brothers films like a lot of

Tarantino. Well, that's a little bit.
Yeah. Like but like you know when I'm like eight.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
Yeah.

And like we kind of watched what he wanted to watch and we also watched, he like showed me the third man and Key Largo and like I had like this like really vast

third man is so good. When they were up on that Ferris film.
Oh my god.

I just saw it again recently. It was like they played it at the Metrograph in New York.
Have you been there? I haven't. Well, I think I have.
On the Lori side. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I had never seen it on the big screen, obviously. And I was so

good. It was, it's a perfect film.
Yeah. And so, like, I just

so we would watch all these movies together. And then I was also, you know, like, I loved Kids in the Hall.
And I loved, like, I just kind of watched what my dad watched.

And

I knew that, like, I wanted to be in that, like, inside of it. It was really like a song or a movie.
Like, I just was like, what do I have to do to be near that? Yeah.

And, but, like, when I was nine, I went for Halloween as a stressed-out director. Like, I thought I was going to direct.

That's pretty high-minded for a nine-year-old. None of the other kids knew.
So,

they were like, you look like our dads.

What were the props for the stressed out director?

I was like in jeans and a baseball hat, and I wore glasses as a kid, and so I had glasses and then a tied or like a flannel shirt tied around my waist and a script.

And I just like walked around being like, oh, God, what are we going to do?

That's pretty creative. Yeah.
Yeah. Maybe directing the the other animals in costumes.

Not that day, but I did also try to direct other kids in like sketches and stuff. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And I, but I didn't know.

That I necessarily like wanted to be an actor, I think, till, you know, like I did it in high school. And I think around then I started to really be like, oh, I want to see if I can do this.
Yeah.

Because I love this so much. Yeah.

And so you started to, now I can't, I keep thinking about the third man in that moment where, you know, where Harry's obviously toast he's caught yeah and you and all of a sudden he becomes this frightened feral human yeah just running through those sewers or whatever and there's like all that incredible like shadow work and it's just like it was so great to see that character scramble yeah it's incredible yeah I mean we need more of that now I know we want to send all those people scrambling those grift it's like it's a pretty relevant movie too oh yeah the personalities we I also I remember watching it and thinking um this is such such a weirder movie than I remember Yeah.

Like, it's actually,

because, you know,

I mean, I love all those old movies, but they, but they've been like, they've been.

homage has been paid to them so many times and you sort of like get swept up in them and i was like ooh this is such a spiky strange wow movie and like the story itself and all that weird zither music

yeah it's so beautiful yeah so yeah so i i you know i'm just i'm very grateful that he was showing me stuff like that yeah and so in high school you're doing what musicals Yeah, you play musicals.

Yeah. Yeah.
And you're belting it out? You're belting it out. Yeah.
But were you running around doing auditions for commercials and stuff? Did you anything?

No, I was in a commercial when I was little. It was like a local access commercial.
That's a pretty exciting day, wasn't it? I hated it. Hated it.

I was like seven, maybe. It was for toilet seat protectors.

Wow. Yeah.

High end. My high end.
Thank you. And I just remember, I remember little bits and pieces of it.
And then I think at the end of the day, I said to my parents, I was like, this was torture.

I don't ever want to do this again. Well, well, that, I mean, it's weird because that's a lot of what makes

film and TV acting horrible. Yeah.
It's just that you don't have any control. Yeah.
And it was

waiting around. Oh, my God.
I think I said like one line. And it was truly like, you know,

I mean, like a... Yeah, like a local access, like really like

low budget. And then I played sports for a long time and really loved that.
And then

got into theater again it sort of in middle school because I was really bullied and made fun of a lot and the kids that were really what was what was uh what were they bullying I um look I had like a shaved head and I looked I just got endlessly roughed up so was but you were you were a rebel you were no I was like a little goof but you shaved your head for I shaved my head because I there was a girl at camp who shaved her head and it was but she was like older and like could rock it and then I was like I'm gonna do this but I I had like a mustache and a buzz cut and was a goof and like showed up to the first day of middle school wearing a t-shirt that said don't mess with Texas that I'd like seen yeah at a Goodwill or something and I just was like what's up everybody and they just immediately threw me into a locker for the whole time the whole time it was awful I didn't speak to anyone I was like I was this really like animated kid and I just didn't shut down

completely they crushed your spirit crushed it and the kids that were and it was like a, you know, a long time of that, many, many months of just sort of. Didn't you find any other weirdos?

The theater kids eventually. Like, it truly, like one of them approached me in the hall and was like, hey, do you want to like come to this like activity? And I, like, no one had spoken to me.

I remember it felt like it was like, yeah, it was like water in a desert. Like, I'd gotten so used to it.

The only person who, like, for that period of time who would engage with me was like one of these teachers who was so kind to me because she just saw, like, she'd ask me to stay after class and she'd be like what do you what do you like to do and like it was so clear that I was just like but you knew you wanted to be different I mean there was a certain intentionality to it well because I'd I'd done it because I'd gone to this summer camp that was like a bunch of misfits and I'd felt

so alive this is where the girl shaved her head yeah was this like what was that the angle of the camp was in an art camp or something it was like arts but you could still play soccer it was it kind of just really hippie right and so I like came I was just like it was the best summer of my life so you knew knew that there were weirdos out there that could be their own people.

Yeah. And I felt like popular for the first time.
I was only ever popular at camp. And then I think I came home with that confidence.
Back to Jerry Hill.

And then just got, because I was like, yeah, I just had these like, and by the way, because when you're little, like time is, I think I'd been at camp for three weeks and I was like, I'm a new person.

Like, I am, I am the king. I am like, and then I shaved my head.
I came, I showed up with like a magnetic nose ring. Like I was so, I was rocking my mustache.
Yeah, you put yourself out there.

Yeah, just brutalized.

What's the mustache thing? Just genetic, I guess.

Just being like. But you really made it stand out.
I think I didn't know about it. And I remember that year, a boy looking at it.

And I suddenly was like, what's he looking at? And then I walked into the bathroom and I was like,

oh my God. Like, I didn't know I had that.
And I didn't know. I remember that with,

I mean, God, that age is so terrible. I was wearing.
What, like 13 or 14? Yeah, I was like 12 or 13. And I remember like I wore shorts and I saw someone like staring at my legs.

And I was like, what's going on? What's my leg? And then I like saw that I had like hair on my legs. And I was like, oh,

I don't know.

Like, it was like a short. Oh, it's awful.
And then, yeah, then sort of the beatdown begins. The beatdown begins.
From the inside, too. From the inside, too.
That's the worst.

So really, like, these kids who were so sweet to me. Yeah.
kind of and then I started doing these plays in middle school and I was like oh I love this

this is like

yeah it gets me out and also I was somewhere where I could like, you know, I mean, not to look, I could escape. Yeah.
I could like be someone else. Yeah.
And I think that at that time was a relief.

And also that just the community of theater kids. Oh my God.
That, you know, that they, because they all are bound by this, you know, we're kind of weirdos and unique. And we have big feelings.
Yeah.

Yeah. We're just trying different

school theater. Saved me, you know, because I was really like, it was terrible.
I feel so much for anyone who goes through that, but like, you know,

to be that lonely and to be like that bullied, it was horrible. And like, your parents don't know how to help you.

Yeah, it's so heartbreaking because there's just going to be more and more of it now as they ditch these programs and make

so much about that. Like that.
LGBTQ kids feel that it's going to be like if I'm not going to be able to do that. And that program saved my life.
Yeah.

Because people are unique. Yeah.

And then individual spirit is special. Yeah.
And now it's just, they're just kind of crushing everybody to kind of abide by,

which was always there. Totally.
At least you had a refuge. You had a refuge.
Yeah.

And like, you know, how incredible that, yeah, I went to this like giant public middle school in New Jersey, but that they like set aside money for us to put on like some dinky little play.

And then they let me write a play too. And then I got to like act in that and cast people.
And I really was like, whoa, like, I never want to leave. This is the safest place on earth.

What was the play about?

The play

was about

an actress in her 80s who has come back to the theater where she made her debut. And she's like, all her ghosts are haunting her.
And she's like, I've lived a terrible life. I didn't.

Yeah. Yeah.
And then we took it to a

eighth grader. And then we took it to this like little theater competition.
And I remember the judges afterward were like,

honey, have you ever seen Sunset Boulevard? And I was like, I don't know what that is. Because I hadn't.
I was like, no. And they were like, it feels like you copied it.

And then I went out in the parking lot and cried. No, I bought, I mean, it's even worse than crying.
I bought a pack of candy cigarettes. Yeah.
And just ate them. Just ate them.

But like pretended to smoke them. Oh, okay.
All right. But then like would chew on them.
Yeah. So I was just like, oh, fuck, they don't get it.
Yeah. Yeah.

They're just coming down on you from all sides.

Here are the grown-ups

who are supposed to just appreciate your creativity and they call you a, you rift it off the hack. Did you watch Sunset Boulevard? I've still never seen the movie, but I just saw the show.

How was that? Loved it. You never saw the movie? I've still never seen it.
Oh, you got to see that movie. Yeah.
That's right up there with the third man. Yeah.

I know it somehow didn't make it into our

it's a crazy movie. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay.
You got to watch it. Watch it.
Yeah.

You know, it opens up with a voiceover of a guy dead in a pool. Oh.
Sign off. I'm in.
Yeah. So after that in high school, you felt confident? Yeah.

And then high school, I was like really, you know, I was in bands a lot. i was like yeah i was the singer for the jazz band and we did battle the bands like i was like in

and i so i found like musician kids too and then um and then theater kids and i did a lot of plays and um yeah i just felt god so you really had chops by the time you got out of high school i don't know if i'd say they were well no but you did a lot of stuff i did i mean at least you had uh you know confidence in yeah self-expression or or in that world yeah and i and i knew that i you don't seem that troubled

Cool.

You're really good at this, huh?

Because, like, you know, I watched a lot of your stuff, and I'm like, no,

she's going to be a lunatic.

You really thought that? Not a lunatic. I have to be careful about how I throw around the word crazy.
Yeah. But I did sense

after seeing a couple roles that there's probably a lot going on in there. Yeah.

I mean there's a lot going on inside anyways. Yeah, sure.
Yeah, you can rationalize it however you want. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
You're not special at all.

Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. But so what do you do after high school? You're just like, I'm doing it? I went to NYU

and was miserable. Why were you miserable there? I think, yeah, I've wanted to live in New York my whole life.
I've like been obsessed with New York.

All growing up, I was like, I just have to get to New York. Yeah.

And

I think I just wasn't ready to be in college. Like, and especially in away from home, you mean? I think I just wasn't too much.
It was like too much. And then I was in this program.

I was taking out student loans, so I knew I was going into debt. Yeah.
And I was only getting to act like five minutes a week. And so,

and I was like living in New York City. And like, you know, I think I just kind of, I was really unhappy there.

And so then I dropped out like halfway through my sophomore year, right after the Hershey Park summer. Oh.
Boy, two hits.

The hits keep coming.

Show business not going well. But I do remember like we did,

you know, whenever we would do like scene classes in college, I do remember being like, oh, I just want to be doing this like all the time. Yeah.
And also, you're all full of the juice.

You know, you're all worked up. Yeah.
And you're probably delivering some pretty intense scene study business. I don't, I don't remember.

I know that we did Chekhov, and I'd never read Chekhov before, and I loved it. I was like, oh my God, a bunch of Russian people sitting around being like, what's the point?

I was like, sign me up.

I loved it.

Yeah. And I loved too, you know, like, I love singing so much, but I don't, I also think that, like, when I was there, and it was like a different time too, and I think they were trying to help.

They were trying to help you be on, be employed. Right.
And so when I would sing, they would be like, you know, your voice isn't for musicals.

It's like low and it's, you know, it's like singer-songwriting. It's fuck is with these grown-ups? I know.

But this, I, you know, I look back on this and like, I don't know if I would drop out of school now. It took being like a ballsy 18-year-old or 19-year-old to be like, what? Yeah, fuck you guys.

Fuck you. And then, so what do you do? You're just in New York? I was just in New York.
And right before I dropped out, an agent came to this like,

I was in this like black box theater production of

a show based on the sorrows of young Werte. Do you know that? No.
Goethe. Goethe.
It sounds all sounds good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It feels lame to be like, it's pronounced Goethe. Like the guy who

plays Faust. Yeah.
But I played like this drug adult pop star and who has like a complete nervous breakdown and is like, but like was a Disney kid.

And so this woman saw me in it and she was like, I'm going to send you on two auditions and see how you do. Really? And I got one of them.
Oh, that's cool. So the Black Box Theater.

So you know what it's like to perform for 10 people. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

So the Largo thing was just, she thought you were beyond that. Except we sold out those, that black box theater in college, yeah.

And it was still 30 people. And it was still, yeah.
But it was sold out. But it was sold out.
Yeah. Yeah.
So she, she saw something.

And she just was, yeah, she was like, we're going to just see how this. And what'd you, what'd you get? I got The Sopranos.

Oh, yeah. I watched you in that.
Yeah. I'm a baby.
Yeah. And then I just.
Kind of emaciated. Yes, emaciated.

Was that required?

Or was that a choice? It was not a choice. I was just very emaciated during that time.
Uh-huh. Yeah.
What a great thing to be on that set. Yeah.

It was really overwhelming. And

Steve Bascemi directed it. And I was, because I'd, you know, I watched so many movies of his growing up.
Like we'd seen Living in Oblivion, Trees Lounge, like my dad, those had all been on the list.

Every Pone Brothers film, obviously. So I knew I was so overwhelmed.

He's such a sweet guy. The sweetest.
The sweetest guy. Yeah, dude.
So kind. Really categorically sweet guy.

And then like after that, I didn't, I couldn't get work for like a year and a half or something. And I, what were you doing? I was a dog walker and I worked in a cafe.

And Steve Bascemi would come into the cafe every now and then and be like, how's it going? Yeah. And I'd be like, not good.
Like,

I can't. I don't know.
Yeah. And he was always so sweet and was just like, all right, well, keep going.
And like, I just kind of did odd jobs for a while.

So, yeah. And then what happens? Do you get like what starts the run?

I started to get off-Broadway plays

and they all kind of like came in a big sort of like run of them.

And so I was doing like, you know,

and that is where I feel like I really like learned a lot. And so I was doing stuff at New York Theater Workshop and Lincoln Center and Playwrights Horizon.

It's so rare now to like actually have a foundation in theater. Yeah.
It was,

I'm so blessed.

It makes sense because like I don't know that I necessarily would have noticed you.

And for some reason,

I'm not even a comic book person. Yeah.
And I'm watching the penguin. Yeah.
Because you're kind of like, you know, let's see what Colin Farrell did with his

get up. Yeah.

And

I kind of got locked in. Yeah.
And then when you come on, I'm like, who the fuck is this person?

But that is such a like theatrical role. Yeah, it is.
That whole world

is like a theater. It is.

And I also have been

such a massive Batman fan my whole life, in particular. No, I like it.
Because it's so theatrical. Oh, yeah.
Because no one has a superpower. It's truly gothic.
It's gothic.

Colin and I would talk about all the time that it felt like an opera.

Everything is so heightened. And it's like an opera about hurt people.
Well,

that's why,

what's his name? Why Am I Space in His Name?

The Tim Burton Batman's the best. Oh my God.
It's so bad.

And it does that line of like high camp. Yeah.
But also like, you know, you're devastated for them. Sure.

They're devastating. Yeah.
And Batman, that character in and of itself is like, you know, totally a tragic. So tragic.
And there's such a fine line between him and his villain.

And it's very hard to beat Danny DeVito's Penguin.

It's a great performance. It's

crazy. But I'm partial to my guy.
Well, that's a whole different thing. It's a whole different thing.
Because, you know, you guys are playing it in sort of a reality frame. Yeah.

Whereas that was not, that was all heightened. Very heightened.
Yeah. You know, the decision to make these people people

was kind of great. Yeah.
Because it gets you in. Yeah.
And then it kind of like

I think our showrunner, Lauren LaFranck, she's so, so brilliant. I can't say enough about her.
She really is. Like, it's like some of the best writing I've ever gotten to work with.

And she, yeah, I think the way in which she like humanizes them, then they're allowed to sort of go nuts. Yeah.
Because you're like, I'll get it. But it happens within a frame of,

you know, there's a point of reference for all of it in sort of crime, you know, movies and dramas. And so with all the backstories and stuff, you know,

it subverts the bigness of it. Yeah.
You know, because, and you're allowed to do that and it makes sense. Yeah.
But it does feel like it's still rooted in something familiar. Yes.

Well, because like there are so many moments, like, you you know, I don't know, did you watch the whole thing? Yeah.

There's like a, when I, not to like spoil anything, but when I'm in that gown with the gas mask and like that's, no one would do that in life. And yet it was like,

you do believe it in this real thing, even though it's so operatic. Yeah.
I mean, it was, yeah. But it's like,

but any sort of, even a procedural gets ridiculous. Yes.
But, you know, you've just been trained to kind of like, all right, well, I guess I couldn't have seen this coming. Yeah, right.
And

yeah, it's okay. Yeah.
Yeah.

I loved it so much. I love.
No, it's good. It seems like a role where you could sort of like engage, you know, all the possibilities of

what you do outside of singing. Yeah,

it felt like I. You could have sounded that.

Maybe that's.

I don't think Joker 2 did that well. I wouldn't make the whole thing a musical.
Yeah,

I don't know how Sophia would ever. Not unless you changed the whole thing.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I did really feel like I got to use

a bunch of different parts. Yeah.
And that was

incredible. To be all fucked up and crazy and institutionalized.
Yeah. And then also just like turn into a creature.

I mean, I just well, yeah, and be able to sort of see that kind of brewing, that moment where, you know, it's an interesting moment in these kinds of, even when I'm re-watching succession, that whatever drives Kendall to make the decision

to take over. Yeah.
But you, you know, you're fundamentally kind of evil.

Well, maybe not. Depends on what this is what I like about it.
Depends. Yeah.
I mean, not totally evil, but ruthless. Ruthless.
Yes. But yeah,

I thought it was kind of

great.

I really liked the whole thing. Then I watched

Palm Springs. Oh, yeah, I loved that.
It's a weird movie, right? Yeah, I loved it.

It's a good device. It's a good device.
I also like, I got to watch that movie at Sundance right before the world shut down.

And I got to be in this audience of 400 people, and no one knew the twist that it's like a time-loop movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it was, I will, like, never forget that.

Because the whole audience gasped when they figured out what it was.

And then they're like at about a third of the way through, you know, the other part of you waking up is revealed. Yeah.
And then it becomes kind of

the challenge of engaging in life and aiming yourself and all that stuff. I know.
I always thought it was like a real, I mean, I know

it's like a time loop rom-com, but I also was like, it's also like an existential comedy. Totally.
And then I watched the 30 rock. Yeah.
Which was hilarious because I'm a son of a favorites.

One of my favorites. You want to hear something funny? Yeah.
I got it, you know, because I just did this show with Silverman, Sarah. Yeah.

And I'm like, you know, I told her I was interviewing you and she's like, oh, I love her. And I'm like,

oh, my God. Yeah.
And then, and then, uh, I love her too. It was like, did you, did you see that 30 rock? And she's like, no, but I heard about it

Yes, I have heard about this. Yes, okay.
And I'm like, what? And I didn't even put it together. I'm such an idiot that people thought you were being some version of her.
I didn't see that though.

I didn't either. You know,

I thought it was so, first of all, that was like one of my favorite things I've ever gotten. It's so funny because

you can do comedy and that's rare in and of itself. So you really got to kind of do that.
And I got to like go for it.

And, you know, I always thought that that episode was such a skewering of what is so commonplace now of like this sexy baby yeah i mean that voice is everywhere well it's everything right but it's weird because i i told sarah i said it's more like felicia michaels who was this she was a comic that literally did that well she kind of talks like that anyways yeah but it was she was a comic that um

yeah i'm friends with her but she it was she was one of the few comics that appeared in playboy and she used to do that thing and it was really kind of always sexy and a little dirty like i didn't even see Sarah at all in it.

No, and I always thought, too, that it just was more about-I mean, that's also what I love about that show:

the butt of the joke always ends up being Liz Lemon. That, like, here she is trying to be like the feminist extraordinaire.

And because someone comes in in a little crop top talking like a sexy baby, like she actually also begins to be like, Well, you're not funny. Yeah, and you know, yeah.
Well, no,

I didn't know what the twist was going to be because I didn't watch the show. It's a great twist.
Yeah, it's it's funny. Yeah, I loved that job so much.

I also was like a really massive 30 30 rock fan. I watched it every week, and I remember like pretending to not know.

Like when I got there, I like had a bunch of like wig tests or something, and then they

took me around being like, and then this is Jack Donge's office, which I like knew

intimately from watching so many episodes. And I was like, oh, wow, whose office? Like, I really wanted to downplay that I was like

obsessed with it. Well, you get to do, like, it's interesting to be an actress who

has the opportunity to play all these different parts and not be pigeonholed in a thing. Yeah, thank you.

Does that frustrate you? No. Okay, cool.

That's why

I try as best as I can.

And I don't,

I mean, you know, you don't really have as much control. You have no control, actually.
As an actor. As an actor.
But I really do try to do that.

Trust you really don't give a fuck and you're willing to. Yeah, right, exactly.

Unless you're Daniel Day-Lewis and you're out there cobbling shoes being like, eh, I'll do it when I want to.

Yeah. Right.
But like,

I've really tried to the best of my ability to do as many different types of things as

I can and not get,

yeah, pigeonholed. And you work all the time.
I do.

Like, that's good, right?

Yeah, I do. And but so when you're on a set with

like even in that's in that part you had in Wolf of Wall Street. Yeah.
Like that's got to be like, so exciting. So exciting.
I mean, it's so exciting.

You know, I wish a lot of times, like, because I am,

I'm so excited. And like, the, like we were talking about earlier, like the miracle of being able to do this is never lost on me.
Yeah.

But a lot of times the way I begin on a job is like racked with anxiety. Yeah, of course.

Like cannot, like, I, there's, like, that's actually a really good example of, like, I look back on that experience and I'm like, wow, I wish you'd just taken it in a little bit more. Right.

I was so scared. You get so focused on what you're going to do.
Yes. And like, so,

yeah, if I'm going to be the weak link, if I'm going to disappoint, if I'm going to like duff this opportunity, I'm sitting there, you know, working with artists who I grew up admiring, you know, is an understatement.

And like,

I just remember, I remember so much fear around that job, which is such a bummer. It makes sense, too, because I was like, you know, in my 20s and was like,

it's scary. And it was a good role.
It wasn't nothing. No.
You know?

I get in there. Yeah, yeah.

I think I love that movie. I don't think it's one of those weird movies that doesn't get enough,

like, I think people misunderstood it. Yeah, right.
You know, I think they thought it was a celebration. No, it's not.
It's a satire. It's a satire.
And it's a comedy. Yeah.

Totally. There's just such, there's such funny shit in that movie.
Yeah. Like, not just when he's on lewds and

do that health thing. But every time, like, as the movie went on, they would cut to the room full of brokers.
Yeah. It got more crazy.

And at some point, they're literally, there's a guy doing a backflip. It just gets so crazy.
Like a bacchanal.

I thought it was such a

statement on like the illness of that world. Yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was.
But you know what?

It's similar to like, or you know, I've heard, or maybe I just like read something about how American psycho is like really hitting with like a younger generation of men and you're the wrong reasons.

Yeah, and you're like, what? Yeah. How do you watch that and think like, yeah.

Well, now we live in a culture of sort of shameless kind of

lawlessness and that

it's not about being a good person. It's about getting away with whatever you can.
I know. That's such a bummer.
Yeah.

So, what happens now? Are you picked up? Are you doing another penguin? We don't know. You really don't know yet.
We really don't know. I know.
That's crazy. I know.
I know.

We don't know. Yeah, and but are you doing other stuff? Yeah, I'm doing,

I just shot a pilot that we're waiting to hear about. For who? FX.
Oh, yeah?

What's that?

It's like a, it's by Will Arbrey, who's this brilliant playwright. And it's, I don't know how to describe it.
It's like sort of a, it's about

these seven sisters. And it's like a.
That's a lot.

I tried to watch Made for Love, but you can't even find it anymore. Isn't that? It's so fucked up.
It's so fucked up. It's so fucked up.

How does that happen? That happened because we were a tax write-off. So you did it for Max?

Yes, did it for Max. And then it was on Amazon for a minute?

I don't even know if it was.

Maybe it was. I don't know.
I just know that they've ripped it off the platform because

it's like, yeah, part of that massive tax write-off that was when they ripped off. The Warren Brothers? Yes, when they ripped Westworld off.

And it's such a bummer because that was three years of our lives. So many people worked so hard on that.

I also think there are so many parts of that show that have become like eerily prescient because

it was a lot about the tech world.

I was married to this very Elon Musk type character, and it was all about

this sort of, I don't know, people

in

this world of like advanced technology being utterly unable to communicate with each other and like just wanting intimacy so bad and making it worse and worse and worse and worse.

And then I was, you know, Ray Romano and I played father and daughter, and I thought it was this like really special, and they were estranged on the show, and they really don't get along. Yeah.

And it was like such an interesting, I just loved that relationship, and I love Ray.

Yeah, Ray's become a pretty good actor. He's so good.
Yeah, I mean, I've known Ray before he was,

you know, he was a comic. Yeah.
Yeah.

I adored him and adored working with him. Yeah.
And like, we do a lot of really like,

you know,

like intimate and sad stuff about like a father and daughter who like can't.

That's so crazy.

You can't even buy it. You can't even buy it.
It's just sitting in a vault somewhere. And I'm also like,

it's like on a USB stick somewhere, probably. Like just put it up.

It's just, it's, and it's such a bummer to think that, you know, I mean, it's also like a lot of what came up during the strikes and everything that like people's hard work,

years of hard work can just be

and it's crazy that with with with everything being out there, you can generally find it somewhere. I mean, I did a show for four seasons.
I don't even know where it is. Yeah.
You know, it showed up

because different corporate entities get involved with studios, and then you don't know who's got it and who is selling it. Totally.

But I think it ended up on, you can get it on iTunes. You can at least buy it.
Yeah, you can't even buy this. That's crazy.
And there's no recourse for that?

You know, I've really, every time I've like, I've talked to a couple people,

just like through at Warner Brothers, but then also like Paramount is who made it. And so I've also, I know a couple people at Paramount.

And every now and then I'll be like, hey guys, what's going on with this? Like, where is it?

And I think there's just, like, no one really knows, it feels like. It's fucking nice.
Which is also really nuts. And it was such a like, it was such a weird show.
And it was, you know, I don't know.

It's too bad. I know.
I hope that in some way it gets released on Twitch.

Yeah, like I hope that like, I don't know, it ends up on Netflix or it ends up somewhere where it can just be seen for a little while because we worked really hard on it and i think it has like a lot of interesting stuff to say is there any any sort of momentum to try to get it out there i mean like

talk to your lawyer i don't have a lawyer oh okay

you just have an agent yeah okay yeah just an agent it's a weird thing about what they get away with you know like it also never really found its fault like it you know it didn't have a following in the way that like a succession does or something.

Yeah, but that seems like a thing that Netflix would at least take a try on. Totally.
And that they could find another life for it. Yeah.

Just like slap it up there, see what happens.

Because it's one thing if you do something and it doesn't, you know, it doesn't do well at the theaters or whatever, eventually someone will pick it up somewhere. Somewhere.

And it's also, it's like eight episodes. They're 25 minutes.
Like it's not. It's only eight episodes? I think so per season.
Oh, how many seasons? We did two. Okay.
Maybe it's 10.

I've read they're short. But it did have some following.
Oh, for sure. People really liked it, but it never, I mean, like, it never became

like a

that hardly happens with anything. I know, it hardly happens with anything.
But I mean, I guess I mean that in terms of like, you know, of

any type of

movement to like. Yeah, yeah.
Well, that happened with me and Betty and Glow. I mean, they didn't do that last season.

They didn't do that last season. I remember.
And people are still kind of like, it's a handful of people, but they're kind of like,

how can we not know what happened? I know. Yeah.
And it's like left on such an open-ended. I know.
And there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah.
I know.

What are you going to do? Yeah, I loved that show. It was a good show.
It's a great show. It's a lot of fun.
She was so wonderful on it. My God.
Oh, that's nice.

I mean, you know, she's one of my favorites.

Yeah. Yeah.
She's great. Incredible.
Yeah. It was so interesting

to

kind of work with her and Allison. Yeah.

Allison was so good. Oh, she's great.
Yeah. But they're such different actresses

and how they approach things. Oh, okay.
Yeah. Because like Betty, you know,

Allison came up in movie and television, right? So she came up in L.A. So there's really a difference.
I never saw it so clearly between like New York theater,

you know, kind of trained people and then L.A., you know, kind of acting business people

or how they approach it with film and TV being the thing always. Right.
As opposed to, you know, coming up through black box theater and all that other stuff.

Which is how Betty and I met, too, was doing a play. Really? Yeah.
And Betty's like, you don't know what she's going to do. Yeah, I know.

Like, you know,

scene you're like, you do a take and you're like, well, I don't know, it's coming. Yeah.
This one. Yeah.
Yeah. We played British schoolgirls together in a play.
Oh, yeah.

So if you can imagine the two of us being like, oh, right.

What are you doing later? Like, it was like a lot of

just a, yeah, she's great. She's the best.
Do you guys, you hang out?

Oh, that's nice. Yeah.
She's one of my

dearest. I'll tell her I talk to you.
So how are you going to get back on stage?

I guess I'm just going to, I don't know, I was going to make a stupid joke about hoisting myself up. Yeah.

I don't know. I'm really.
Do you get pitched that stuff? Yeah, for sure. I def definitely.
And

there's stuff that I'm,

you know,

it's a long commitment for something that I guess part of the you have to factor into it is that if it's a new play,

and then you got to go through the previews and then you got to run.

And you have to, I think, really love it. Like I think

or, you know, I don't know.

But I'm really I really am looking to get back because I just miss it. And whenever I go see a play, I have that feeling of like, oh, I want to get out there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like a little kid or something. Yeah.
And it's, you know, every night it happens in real time. It's not waiting around.
And it's been a minute since I've done one. And I'm...

Like, you do get really rusty. I mean, you know what it's like to perform live.
And you don't have that muscle for being in front of an audience. I'm also like, oh, God, it's getting up there.

I haven't done one in like, I think like seven years. Well, that comes back.
It probably comes back easier than piano. I don't know about that.
I've spent more time on a piano bench. Yeah.
Yeah.

No, but I mean like being, it's really just about being in front of an audience. I mean, I don't know about memorizing it.
You're not talking about like 10,000 hours of something. Yeah.

You're not talking about it. No, no, I just mean that like once you've done

once you have you've already put in that 10,000 hours for theater, that even if you get away from it, even with stand-up, you, you, what goes aw what gets

not even laxed, it's just that to have that constant thing open to a live audience.

Like if you don't do that for a while, you kind of get it. But when you get up there, it kind of, you know, because

you kind of need it. I know.
And you feel it. I know.
Yeah. It was good talking to you.
It's so nice to talk to you.

She's great, man. Awesome.

Again, you can watch the penguin on Max. Hang out for a minute, folks.

Hey, as I mentioned before, you can hear Diana Moscovitz read her piece, There Will Never Be Another WTF with Mark Marin, with a full Marin subscription.

You can listen to it on Last Friday's bonus show with Brendan and Chris. It almost made me feel like being caught by a detective.
I bet. That's exactly what I was thinking.

I was thinking of the end of

the usual suspects. Yes.

Like she figured it all out.

She picked up every clue.

Oh, I was totally the snowman.

I was like, i gave you all the clues and yes she got them all how do you feel like how do you feel being seen like great that's that that was the that was the uh that was the most uh humbling and emotional takeaway from it for me was i was like man it wasn't hidden like i i i was okay with it being hidden right as an inside joke something only for you but it was

validating to me that if someone was astute enough and was paying attention in the way and and as she was as devoted to the show as a part of her life as she was yeah she was able to pick all that stuff up and look

you know the guests are important and the show is about humanity and people and i loved her way of putting it it's like this is the story of a guy trying to get his shit together and that's exactly how i've always seen it but like i always had in the back thought of my head i was like well this thing works because, you know, whatever growth you want to talk about with Mark, one of the things he never really had to grow about was his relationship with me.

He has been an above-board, excellent partner from the day we started working together. And it never fucking changed.

He is, it is the most consistent thing in the 16 years of this show is the way we have worked together. And that's not a fucking lie.
That is not exaggeration.

That is not like in any way, me trying to look at something in hindsight. That has been the way it's been since the start.
And it's just like,

I can't believe somebody else got that. To sign up for the full Marin, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST. All right.

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