Episode 1639 - David Harbour

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Lock the gate!

All right, let's do this.

How are you?

What the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, Nicks?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast.

Welcome to it.

It's called WTF.

I imagine some of you have been here before.

Nice to have you back.

Today, I have David Harber back, which is always exciting.

I love that guy.

I love him.

We talked years ago, and

it was like a ride.

I'm like,

I can get on this roller coaster.

I grew up with a similar roller coaster in a slightly different theme park.

Let's do it.

Let's get in it.

I was just fucking thrilled to have him back.

And,

you know, you know him.

He's, you know, he's the

guy, the sheriff on Stranger Things.

And,

you know,

he did the show a while back.

It was episode 921 in the archives.

He's been part of the Marvel universe since the Black Widow movie, and now he's in the

new Marvel movie, Thunderbolts.

I like him.

Get a kick out of him.

So, look, you guys, you know, we live in an age,

this will be known as the when is everyone going to shut the fuck up era?

Just people blathering everywhere.

You know, I get overwhelmed.

And I don't know if I've talked about this specifically

because, look, we do almost an analog thing here.

Here at WTF

Central.

Me and Brendan do this thing.

This is what we do.

We do an audio podcast, have from the beginning.

We're audio guys, but in the world we live in now, it's almost like analog.

And I always felt that,

as did Brendan, that this was the most intimate and most engaging format and remains so.

That's why we still do it this way, because audio is

kind of magic.

There's an intimacy to it, that you live with it in your head.

And

the way you engage with audio, especially talking, is very different than video.

But it's also, we are not on the big battlefield of, you know, memes and clips and everything else.

And there's a certain insulation in that, but it's sort of a freedom.

It's a freedom that, you know, we don't care about being clipped, you know, and having reels and bits and pieces of content, as they call it, to go up online so people can flip through it or engage with the 30 seconds, a minute or or two.

We're not even on that playing field at all.

And it's a fucking gift.

It's a fucking gift because I believe that long-form interaction, long-form conversation and long-form comedy, which is what I do, is still the most human

sort of pastime.

It's something that the brain has to settle into.

It's something that you have to take in.

It's something you have to follow and engage with in a full way, you know, all the way through.

You know, and there's this idea that I push back against.

You know, I talk to a lot of young comics who come in here and they do specials, but they're doing specials that are a half hour long, 40 minutes long, 33 minutes long, 38 minutes long.

And when I got into the game, you know, you did an hour.

That was your job.

You know, you were a headliner.

You do an hour, 50 minutes to an hour to close the show.

When you do a special, it's an hour.

And as time goes on, because of this idea

that

we don't have the attention span anymore

to watch long form anything, that the attention span of people

because of data

accumulated through algorithms, then made into a generalization about human beings' ability to pay attention, to engage with something for more than a certain number of minutes, is sort of of like the precedent set

and I think it's bullshit and I have a really hard time knowing that this is the adjustment artists are making comics whoever musicians

people who talk for a living that it's been drilled into our head that you know people just can't do it anymore They can't do it.

They're distracted.

Their attention span

has been truncated shortened and the truth is is that it is those delivery systems those platforms the way that that that business is structured that has caused that

and and i don't think it's an ability for people to pay attention to things it's a it's it's a matter of them wanting to or being engaged with it but because everyone's accommodating this idea that you got to keep going shorter and shorter

uh you know that's become the requirement.

And I had this realization, I may have talked about it in conversation with somebody, but I don't think I explored it on the show.

And it came up in my thinking when I was talking to an NPR host in, I don't know, Illinois or somewhere.

That, look, you know, when we talk about crowdwork comics or when you flip through your phone and you see all these bits and pieces of comics intentionally doing crowdwork for the reason to be recorded at a club so they can post their clips to show people what they do, which is, you know, basically be in the moment and make fun of audience members.

And again, I've said this before.

Look, it's a skill set that you should have.

If that's you,

like if that is what you do, is like this is my mode of expression.

This is me expressing myself.

So what do you guys do?

How long have you been together?

What is that hat?

You know,

are you guys

married?

Where do you come from?

Like, if that is, and reacting to those questions to strangers,

if that's, you know, that's your, that's your expressive thing, that's your talent, that's what you want to say to the world, then fine.

I don't have a problem with it.

I get it.

It's comedy.

And one of the great things about being a solo artist or an artist at all is that, you know, you create the space for yourself to do what you do, to get

how you express yourself out there and whatever it may be.

you know that is part of the freedom of it i mean that's why i did it like you know i can it doesn't matter what i do up there it's my stage and as long as i get laughs occasionally then i'm doing the right thing but anything outside of that i can do whatever the fuck i want to do you know in terms of that stage it's a rare stage you can sing you can dance you can act out you can do whatever you want the only basic requirement is that you get laughs but if that's what you choose to do to express yourself it should be yourself that you're expressing

and the idea that comics are, you know, I would think get into it for that, but now are beholden,

like the idea that they, you know, have a freedom to express themselves,

but yet they have to figure out how to do it, you know, quickly and in a way that, you know, will pop on a reel,

in a way that honors the speed and pace and delivery system of TikTok or Instagram or any of these platforms.

There's a context there that is a huge corporate endeavor that primarily is to keep people on that thing, on that platform.

And you're just serving those masters to do that so they can do that.

Yet you're bending your entire will and creative sense of self to that format, which is short and has to grab people.

And the more people you grab for your short little thing or you shitting on that guy who's got a weird haircut is what determines whether or not

you are successful or that you may possibly make a living.

But there's no freedom of mind in that.

There's no real expression in that other than maybe being quick-witted and having a spontaneous moment that is who cares.

But the idea that you can do whatever you want, and that some of these folks of any type of art form thinks they're doing that, but yet you're bending yourself to this context to fit

the expectations of the platform delivering it.

And

with these platforms, it's quick and it just goes by and all you're looking for is people to go, ha ha ha, and quick and get a follower.

So you are just an appendage in a way.

You are just part of this the advertising effort,

the sort of

onslaught of these bits and pieces to keep people engaged with this larger corporate interest.

And so whatever you think is the freedom of being expressive and all this freedom you have to do whatever you want and put it out into the world becomes very relative to the world of those platforms.

And it is innately not a long-form world, not a storytelling world, not a world, you know, in terms of comedy at this point in time that really kind of

shows people who you are, what your ideas are, you know, where you're coming from.

I mean, there's other people that do that kind of stuff, but arguably they're doing it in a very limited format, too.

And everybody is now a broadcaster, and everybody is sort of operating in this

zone of mania that is required to focus on broadcasting, whether it's sort of a hypothetical vulnerability or aggressive cultural criticism.

There is a zone that people have to get in to be on a mic.

You know, I'm in it now in my own way.

But I just think that the cultural conversation is just this kind of sort of, you know, never-ending, infinite, manic babbling that comes through you in little bits and pieces in order to grab your attention for corporate interests and i think i kind of discussed this a bit with chris hayes when i talked to him about his book is that people are perfectly capable of maintaining an attention span for as long as the thing that they are interested in continues to engage me.

So any generalization based on millions of people, you know, watching one thing that gives data through an algorithm about how many people tuned out or didn't watch all the way through.

It's not relative

to what people can really pay attention to or how they can engage.

But if we keep just operating at the behest of that,

we will just become these kind of reactive monkeys in a cage looking for dopamine hits off of short bursts of bullshit.

And I just think that it is the enemy, and it is a very specific corporate enemy in the form of platforms designed to maintain your attention

to personal creativity.

Diminishes your depth, diminishes your ability to express yourself honestly or the way you want to.

Anyway, I don't know.

It was on my mind.

So look, it's the final leg of my tour leading up to my HBO special taping.

I'm in Toronto at the Winter Garden this Saturday, May 3rd for two shows.

Burlington, Vermont, I'm at the Vermont Comedy Club for two shows on Monday, May 5th, and one show on Tuesday, May 6th.

Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

I'll be at the music hall on Wednesday, May 7th.

Then it's my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater in Brooklyn on May 10th for two shows.

Two shows there.

Go to wtfpod.com/slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets.

Most of those shows are pretty close to sold out.

I think they're still in Portsmouth some tickets in Portsmouth, maybe a couple tickets for the taping, but uh, but I don't know, but go check it out if you're interested in coming.

Okay, look, David Harbor and I have done this sort of uh deep, uh, deep word jam before,

deep thought jam, deep talk jam,

and it was a thrill to have him back.

Thunderbolts opens in theaters, including IMAX.

Tomorrow, May 2nd, this is me reconnecting with David Harbour.

All right, so it's been a long time since our last appointment.

Seven years or something, right?

I know.

I can't believe it.

How is your progress?

I mean...

Aren't you going to ask me to cough and you put the rubber glove on?

No, no, no.

That's a different kind of diagnosis.

Sorry, sorry.

I'm doing the.

I got to make some sense of some shit, man.

Oh, man.

Good luck to us.

But here's what I was going to tell you about the week.

We can hire a professional.

Oh, yeah.

The professionals, do they really know?

I don't know anymore.

Like, I can't.

Yeah, that's a great question.

How long have you been in therapy for?

Well, I wasn't in therapy.

You know, I've been in and out because as I get older, I realize, like, if I'm going to go, I got to know exactly why I'm going.

I'm not going to fuck around.

I'm the opposite.

Really?

Yeah, I'm just keep me in and out.

Just keep me in the whole time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I just found that after a while, if you're a smart person, you know, what are you really using them for?

You know, they're just like.

Well, I guess it's some kind of self-exploration, right?

It's an hour of your day where you're going into these recesses of your psyche where you don't really want to go alone.

But don't you do that anyways?

Oh, don't want to go alone.

Yeah,

yeah.

And you want to have at least someone intelligent who's navigated those waters.

Sure, okay.

But okay, let's say you do that, right?

And then, you know, you find something out.

And the idea is that that's proactive.

It's going to help you.

How is it not just like when I make discoveries that imply something about my behavior?

The next step should be like, well, I'm going to try to change that.

And then it just becomes like, oh, yeah, I had that memory.

That was good.

I mean, theoretically, there are different types.

There's like the CBT version, which is the cognitive behavioral thing, which is where you're actually going in to fix a problem.

And then there's what I like,

which is like deep Freudian psychoanalysis, where you're just going into weird eddies and whirlpools of the psyche.

What is there one guy left doing that in New York?

Are you with the one guy?

What is he, 90?

Yes.

And he has me lie on the couch and he's vibing.

The whole thing, man, it's like I'm back in 1920s Vienna.

Like it's just like, that's just nostalgic, Dave.

Hard disagree.

I mean, if we're going to do something, which we both agree might be worthless, you might as well do it in the most worthless way possible.

Classic.

Yes.

Like let's go to the heart.

Yeah.

All right.

So you're doing that and you're doing like, you know, he doesn't talk much.

Yes, exactly.

But I mean, it's really the mystery, right?

Like, that's what you're getting into is

the unconscious or the subconscious, which isn't conscious.

Do you feel like you get there?

Do you feel like you really get there?

I mean, like, I know that's the idea.

My life improved

in the eight years I've been with this new guy.

My life has improved, Yes,

face with the old man.

When we are out of town, we do phone calls.

Oh, yeah.

You don't want him on the FaceTime.

I've barely seen his face.

Yes.

You walk in the room

and try not to look at him.

We do have a momentary interaction of,

how are you doing?

Good, how are you?

Which is completely meaningless and insane.

Because I'm going to get into the fact that I'm not okay.

And then you lie on the couch with him behind you and you just go into it.

And hopefully the idea is that you are unpacking or uncovering things that you don't understand in ways that you don't understand.

So it's not the literal of what you're saying, it's how you're saying it or what you're focused on.

Or, you know what I mean?

This is the mystery

where hopefully it becomes more

impressive than just some guy on the street that you're telling your problems to, and he says,

go do this.

Yeah, but ultimately, that's a 50-50 proposition.

I mean, it is true.

And the training is archaic and and it is from Vienna in the 30s.

We don't exactly know what the training is.

There's a lot of disagreement.

But don't you already know what's wrong with you?

I mean, how old are you?

That's the sad thing.

That is the sad thing.

I'm turning 50, and yes, at this point, I should, but I still look to someone slightly older to tell me what's wrong with you.

Oh, okay.

Well, here's what I was, because I, you know, I've avoided medication for years.

Okay.

So you're

like, I can't wait.

Here's the story.

Does it relate to the cat at all?

Yes.

Oh, my God.

I can't wait for this.

And

this was profound.

Because, like, okay, for me, I know I'm not depressive.

And I'm not really, I have anxiety problems that are debilitating on some level

to the point of obsessiveness, right?

So that's the trip for me.

And I've lived with it because I've always been like, well, you know, I mean, there's a lot of reasons to feel this way.

And if no one else is, then they're the dummies.

Of course.

You're just alive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's just sort of like, so what if I, if what the bit I'm doing about it is like, you know, I don't know what resting mind is.

Because if my brain rests even for a second, it goes like, so you want some things to worry about?

I guess let's pop open the folder.

None of them could, you know, they could all happen, but they probably won't, but we could work them out.

You know, so it's catastrophic thing.

Okay.

Fine.

Yes.

But I've always been against the SSRIs only because,

you know, I feel them and I feel what they do.

Yeah.

And what I've I've been saying lately is that, like, I'm not sure that all of my creativity might come from this, from like mining for gold in a river of panic.

Yeah.

So, but here's aware of getting rid of your demons.

You may be getting rid of the best things about you.

Yeah, but the big he used to do is like, you don't get rid of them.

They're just inside you.

And

they've been taken hostage.

So, you know, people are going, like, how you feeling?

You're like, great.

And there's some guy inside you go, get me out of here.

Anyway, so this, here's what happens with the cat.

Okay.

And this, it spoke to me.

All right, so I go away and my cat has anxiety.

He freaks out, apparently.

Like he, like to the point where, like, it was just first it was just, you know, vomiting, and now then he gets colitis and he has diarrhea all over the house when I'm gone.

And now it's escalated to him beating the shit out of the other cats.

Like I came home

from being away for like three days and all the cats were hissing at each other.

This little fucker had fucked everything up.

He's shitting everywhere.

You know, it's a disaster.

You know, there's piss everywhere.

And he's just fucking lost his mind.

And my vet says, well, we should put him on the Prozac because that'll help his behavior.

Yes.

Right?

So I project all of my feelings about Prozac onto the cat.

But I think the moment of profundity is that my struggle is like, okay, so

this cat shits all over everything and fucks with all the other cats to the point where there's total chaos.

But don't I want him to to be his authentic self?

And

how is that not relatable?

I mean, because it's the same thing with me, right?

It's like, you know, like, why would I want to taper or temperature?

Well, I mean, okay.

I mean, this is where I actually do have a really interesting rabbit hole, wormhole, bone to pick with you.

You talk a lot about the search for the self, right?

Yeah.

I mean, that's so interesting to me because

I'm on, I've been on this kick too for like 50 years, right?

50.

Sorry, not, I guess not when I was like two.

But the...

Well, that's where it got lost.

What about the idea?

Exactly.

What about the idea of, I mean, what about the idea of no self?

I mean, how about the, have you ever traveled down that path of the Buddhist path of no Atman?

Like,

sure.

I'm dealing with her right now.

I'm going to abandon it.

Well, I put my cat on Prozac and I now see that he has no self.

He's lost.

He's untethered in a way.

But he's not happy.

He's not blissfully sort of wandering around.

That's not what I'm projecting.

No, no.

What I'm projecting is like, who am I?

Why did you do this to me?

Before I had purpose, I could beat up on that guy.

I could shit on your bed.

Who am I without shitting on the bed and beating up on the older guy?

Yeah.

Okay, well, okay, fine.

So let's say there's no self.

Okay.

Fine.

I'll indulge this.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

This ancient philosophy for like tens of thousands of years you'll indulge.

Yes.

Yeah, but what makes them right?

They're just trying to deal with problems too.

I mean, like, the approach is like, well, there's no self.

Well, that makes this suffering easier.

Correct.

And isn't that the point?

Is it?

I don't know.

I mean.

Is that what you want on your, you know, your gravestone?

Like, well, you know, he didn't believe he was anybody.

And that helped him.

God bless.

I mean,

I guess it's less,

I guess it's more about the attachment to this idea of self

that starts to become punishing and neurotic, and you're shitting and beating up all the other cats.

Like, isn't there some way to

realize that the other cats are you as well?

Yes.

Okay.

When I go down the rabbit hole of no self, what I usually come up with is like, I have one.

He just happens to be seven.

But you really want to keep him around.

You don't want him to grow up and be.

Well, no, I'm protecting him, and it's gone too far.

Right, right.

Okay.

Then I think we're in the same boat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So like.

My therapy may work in a sense.

to do that as well.

Yeah.

No, no, I'm sure it does.

But

what then and what it requires of you,

like I used to, I had this line where I said, you know, the monster I created to protect the kid inside is sometimes hard to manage.

Right?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

But so the challenge is, and I'm there too.

It's ego, right?

I guess it's ego.

I mean, you know,

the definition kind of works.

But for me, if you're aware of that, so the challenge becomes, well, how do I, you know, live in that kid, you know, long enough for him not to be afraid?

You know, at this age.

Yes.

Right.

So, because I feel it.

You know, I, you know, I can be vulnerable in certain situations, usually with strangers for an hour, people I respect, and then they go away.

You know, I don't check in with you tomorrow.

I'm not going to be like, absolutely.

I mean, I might have tried the first time.

Yeah.

It's like, hey, what are you doing?

Like, what do you mean, what am I doing?

I think there was a text or something seven years ago.

Maybe.

Hey, I'm in New York.

Yeah, and that was it.

What's up?

Yeah, nothing.

Nothing.

How many people are going to respond back to that?

I'm not going to respond to that.

My God.

Terrifying.

What do you mean?

It's terrifying.

Two heterosexual older men trying to get a cup of coffee together.

Oh, God.

It's

plays on every.

This is what would happen.

Yeah, but this is for the public.

Oh,

privately.

For posterity.

Privately.

I don't know.

What do you want from me?

It's a nightmare.

Yeah, Jesus.

What are we going to talk about?

I'm glad we nipped that friendship in the butt.

Thank God.

I was carrying that for fucking seven years.

That fucker doesn't like me, can't you?

Now you know.

Yeah, finally.

So the challenge is, like, how do you live in that vulnerability?

And I think that, you know, when you're an actor, actor, you know, you at least are afforded the exploration of

utilizing it or

sort of

viewing creative ways to sort of stay away from it.

But you can, when you're in a situation where the risk is only,

you know, failure in front of people.

Right.

That you can you can risk that vulnerability in a way.

What do you mean?

Well, I mean, like, if you're in an intimate relationship.

and you get to that place where you're like, I'm finally comfortable and I'm vulnerable,

you know what?

How are you going to trust that person anymore?

Sure.

Okay.

I mean, I'll have to go over that next Thursday with

your therapist.

Exactly.

With the old

Freudian.

That's perfect.

I'm going to start with that one.

How are you, David?

I'm okay.

How are you?

Okay, sit on the couch.

I got one from Marin.

If you finally get vulnerable to somebody, how can you trust them?

How can you possibly trust them?

I mean, it's an interesting conundrum for sure.

Yeah, but

the self thing, like if we even just take it to like seven years old, it's like that is the real situation is whatever reason you stopped letting that thing develop is because you were afraid of being hurt, right?

Or you didn't want to get hurt, right?

They were too sensitive.

We're too sensitive, no?

I guess so.

Wait, what do you mean?

You're saying that you stopped developing the self because of that?

Well, I'm saying that the emotional vulnerability or whatever, it's my belief that at some point your sensitivity or your lack of proper parenting left you too terrified to sort of like

exist in the world.

So you build this other thing that gets you through other periods of your life or whatever.

Whatever the fuck it is.

Yes, for sure.

Yeah.

So what I'm saying is that like, you know, how do you make that kid not afraid?

And the only way is to sort of like, well, come on out.

You know, let's, let's just hang out for a little while.

And then one thing happens, like, if my cat looks at me wrong, I'm like, well, that fucking thing doesn't like me.

You know, like, there's a sensitivity to it.

So I don't know about the whole no-self

thing because I'm still stuck in this zone of like a very immature self.

To go back to no self, Jesus Christ.

I mean, that's.

I mean, you say it's going back.

It should be going forward, right?

Like you're letting go.

You're letting go of this idea that you have to protect this kid or that this kid is anything at all.

Well, it's just an idea, but like

when I feel the struggles that I have as an adult, you have to define them somewhere, right?

I have to like, well, this is because of this.

I have to do that before I go like, well, all this is bullshit.

Okay, yes.

I understand what you're saying.

Yeah.

I understand what you're saying.

I mean,

what happened?

You started the rabbit hole.

I know.

Now I'm like so swimming in it.

I mean,

it's such a wormhole of now we get into like consciousness itself, right?

Right.

And like sort of meaning and what we're doing in time.

Yeah.

Like what we're doing with our time.

Yeah.

And that's really the only thing.

So I guess the idea of no self allows you theoretically, this is what I've

occasionally had glimpses of, to be alive in the present moment without

and to exist in a full way without the definition of these things where, oh, I have to be a certain thing.

I can just be

truly an authentic non-self in the present moment.

And so if somebody sees you on the screen and goes, hey, David Harbor, you're like, but not today.

I'm shitting on the other cats, if you'll excuse me.

Oh, man.

Not today.

Not today.

Well, I mean, but that is like why it's perfect to act because then, you know, you can just do that.

You can like, you know, what...

but

that is what I love.

Yeah.

But that, because it's present.

Yes.

And it allows you the mask of, um,

you know, you can be your authentic vulnerability, all that stuff without having to own this is me.

Right.

Or to either be judged or think you're being judged.

Correct.

You can be as embarrassing as you want to be.

Sure.

And people are like, that was cringy.

I know that guy that I'm playing.

He's.

Exactly.

not a comfortable fella, that guy.

I mean, I think that's the thing about personality, though, where I see that people feel pretty rigid in terms of defining personality, personality of others.

And I feel like we have all kinds of creatures within us.

Absolutely.

And all kinds of selves or all kinds of,

you know, we're.

Look, when you're needy, you'll do anything to accommodate just about anybody.

Amen.

Amen.

So, so all of a sudden you're in something, you're like, who is this guy?

Yeah, exactly.

It's working for them.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Or any sort of, you know,

oh, I never thought I would do that or I never thought I would be that.

Yeah, just put yourself in the right situation.

And of course you can.

Yeah, yeah.

You can do anything.

It's like Sidney Pollack and Michael Clayton.

People are fucking incomprehensible.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

And it's totally true.

Yeah.

And it's why they can't treat anything effectively or anything, because no one knows.

Yeah.

I think it's also an effective way that we distance ourselves from each other.

It feels very like, you know, we call each other monsters or you're this or you're that.

It's just because of the fears of our own potentialities.

Well, I think, right.

And then I think there's a thing with me because I do like, you know, my main performance is

being me.

Correct.

That must be extremely difficult.

Well, it's pretty, there's, it's pretty broad, you know, because like I'm doing stand-up, right?

So, you know, that, that's a context.

Right.

And, you know, the only requirement is theoretically to do the job, you should get laughs here and there.

Right.

Right.

But like, I got, you know, my thinking and feelings go much beyond it.

Right.

So for me to kind of wrestle it into that and then kind of put it into that mode, it's pretty specific because I'm broad.

You know, most guys, you're like, that guy does the thing with the thing, right?

I don't do the thing with the thing.

Yeah, maybe in a.

You have the like neurotic.

Kind of, but I'm more cranky.

I think, like I have a problem with the word neurotic because, you know, I overthink, but, but, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not,

I am self-aware.

So what I'm exploring.

And you say neurosis doesn't have self-awareness?

Well, I'm saying that as a character, neurosis is a guy that's sort of like, oh, yeah, but I'm going to do this.

I'm not that guy.

You know, I'm like, you know, all right, so this is what's happening and I think it's this.

Right, okay.

So I'm going to go all the way through.

I think people would rather just have the neurotic thing because then they can put me in a box.

Right, okay.

I think as I get older, I'm just in the cranky box.

Yeah, it's true.

It's true.

I put you in that box.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's not, it's not neurotic.

I, I, I think about things, but, you know, I'm angry.

I think, I feel like neurotic is, is a sort of like

illuminated, annoying vulnerability.

Illuminated, annoying vulnerability is neurotic.

Yeah, okay, I get you.

You prefer crank?

Yeah, a little bit.

It's easier for people to palat.

It's more palatable.

Cranky just comes off as like, wow, this guy does have problems.

Right.

It's less pretentious.

It's more grounded.

It's more real.

Yeah, I got you.

I got you.

Yeah.

I like cranky.

Yeah, but

so

the success of, well, this is a Buddhist problem, right?

Is that what we're talking about?

I guess so, yeah.

I mean, this is my, this is where it's taken me.

Really?

Kind of, yeah.

I i mean

like what do you go into things

i mean a little bit yeah which one going to things i got a i got guys you know there's like various monasteries and oh yeah people yeah oh god yeah oh so you're doing that

from college who became a monk with tick nahan down in escondido and oh yeah go down there and hang out with the monks do some

escondido that's really i don't know if that's a a a globally acknowledged place of spiritual retreat, Escondido.

Is it?

Where is that?

Just above.

Is it north?

Yeah,

south of here.

So it's like south of here.

Just above San Diego.

Sure, very popular with spiritualists.

Mecca.

Do they all wear sandals and

bare shirts?

They walk up the mountain barefoot.

No, it's crazy, though.

I mean, they do have a, you know,

it's Zen.

You know, they got rattlesnakes and black widow spiders.

On purpose?

Yeah.

They ship them in from South Texas.

It's part of just to murder people.

These are the obstacles you have to do.

Here's your no-self.

Yeah, here you go.

But like when you get there, all the monks must be like, oh, this is going to be a lot.

Absolutely.

Just roll their eyes.

Part of the compassion response is just like, oh, didn't have time for this.

I do tend to show up on, it's funny, like, because I have an inn with the monks,

they have the days where everyone can come for the early exams.

I know the name drop all day.

And I'll show up on something called Lazy Days, which the monks have like lazy days where they sit around and they just jerk off and eat,

drink,

I guess.

I didn't see much of it.

I saw the eating portion.

But it is, you know, I do show, and I'm like, you guys don't have to do the spiel for me.

I've read the book, so good.

We can just like hang out and

look at the black widows and stuff.

Yeah, and the sky.

But yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, it is sort of a journey because I've been on, I mean,

I've been on the ancient Indian sort of philosophical tip.

I started with the whole Vedanta,

which is all about

realization of self.

Oh, yeah.

And then, you know,

meditation on the Upanishads and the ancient Vedas and these things about Brahman and about the fundamental reality.

And it's almost like, I imagine like the Lynch transcendental meditation.

You're tapping into this field and this world that is self, that they define as self.

Well, yeah, I mean, some people, yeah, like Lynn, my late girlfriend, she did it twice a day.

The TV.

No matter what.

Yeah.

Really?

No matter what.

No matter what.

Yeah.

Like if she's on set, I got to go.

What?

20 minutes.

No way.

Yep.

Amazing.

And did it, and it was just a practice that she loved.

That's it.

But I think she.

You think it helped her more than the therapy?

Oh, totally.

I think it was, because she wasn't really that kind of person, but these people who really do that thing, I think it is foundational.

And

enabled, you know, it enabled, well, I mean, she was very charismatic and open and

caring, but she had a thing.

I think it grounds you in something that is, it's hard to even define.

But if it works, you know,

you're grounded, dude.

Yes.

Was hers visualization?

I don't know exactly what her process was, but she could go right in.

Like, you know, I'd wake up and she'd already be in it.

And I'm part of me sort of like, but we just slept.

I mean, what do you need to wake up and do this?

Different kind of concentration.

That's right.

But she was so good at it, it was like she was really in.

Like, I'd look at her and be like, that's a little creepy.

You know, because, you know, she'd lock right in.

I mean, yeah, well, I mean, I started doing some of that stuff.

And then, you know what I got into is you ever go back and listen to Ram Das?

I haven't really.

Oh, man.

I don't know if I'm a searcher enough.

Really?

Really?

See, I thought that I think you are.

I mean, that would be.

Yeah, but I'm more of like, you know, there's part of me that is, but there's part of me that wants to work it out in my own way.

I see.

Not listen to gurus.

Yeah, right.

And sometimes I get there and it's surprising, you know, for me, you know, and then somebody like you would go, like, yeah, but they've been talking about that for 10,000 years.

I'm like, but I just discovered it

on my own

without medicine.

It's part of the fun.

Yeah.

But

so I'm more,

in, in terms of spiritual searching, I'm dismissive of process.

You know, because I...

Dismissive of process.

Yes.

Like, if you're going to give me a dogma of any kind.

Oh, I see.

You know, even if it's just sitting for 15 minutes,

you know, I'm going to be like, there's got to be another way.

But I don't know that there is.

Well, I mean, I mean, the interesting concept of like what you get to, I think, and again, this is all my, you know, armchair book.

Yeah, just in case you're taking David.

I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But theoretically, I mean, the idea of Zen at its nth form is that it's all individual, right?

Is that it's all just sort of like your own meditative path through this world.

It doesn't have form.

Right.

Well, like, I, like, my biggest, my newest revelation was like, you know, I'm a, well, you know, I'm a recovering addict.

Yeah, yeah.

And I have that thing on all levels.

And, you know, right now I'm like, you know, I'm doing these nicotine pouches.

Is this

in?

The sponsor?

No, no.

Okay.

No.

But like, they're so good.

Well, you look like you're just chewing that.

No, I just put them in the thing and you get a little nicotine.

So, but, but this is a manageable park it.

Yeah.

Addiction.

Boy, you kind of want one, I mean, I do.

I can't believe I've come to my dealer in a garage out here.

What's I I heard you go, like, you park it, right?

You've investigated this.

Yeah, that's right.

You park it.

I know all about this.

I used to do, I did the Nicorette for like two weeks.

I did that for years.

I can't get out.

But what I said on stage was one night, it's like, you know, it's like, this is manageable.

I'm a fucking addict.

And if this is what it's going to take, if this is all it takes for me on a daily basis to hold back the big empty,

yes, but if I was spiritual, I'd embrace the big empty.

There you go.

And see, that's the thing is like we're all running away from our suffering in all these various ways, and we just need to sit.

Or maybe

not just suffering,

but existential terror.

Yes.

So I guess that's suffering.

I mean, you sound like you're suffering even when you say it.

The awareness of mortality.

Well,

and then the mundane, you know, issues of shame.

I mean,

of course.

I mean, but you know, the interesting thing about the Zen stuff is that's like basic level entry level.

Like you're talking about figuring it out.

That's entry-level stuff.

They sit around and meditate on their bodies dying.

Like they sit around and meditate on the rotting of their bodies and how this body will die.

For, you know, it's like the first meditation that you do.

And do they do that until they die?

No, you sort of figure it out, I guess.

And at a certain point, you're like, yeah, that's cool.

Oh, how you can let it go.

You let go of that.

Yeah.

I mean, there's a.

How are you doing with that one?

I mean, terrible.

Absolutely awful.

I don't know.

I mean, it's the only really thing to talk about is death, right?

There is a there's an incredible,

you know, I do love the Vietnamese Buddhist sort of thing.

It's a little different than the Tibetan thing.

There's a, there's a video of Thich Nghan with a child, and the child is like, is asking about death.

He's like, does death really exist?

And

this, you know, the old monk is just like, absolutely.

Like, there is no life without death.

Right.

And the kid is just

thanking for the reincarnation answer or whatever.

But it's, I mean, I guess it's a little more complicated.

Where exactly?

He's got those backs, those nicotine packs, just covered.

He's soaking in a tub of them,

trying to push away the suffering of that moment.

I guess the,

you know.

Oh, that's interesting.

So that is the existential terror is the suffering of every moment.

So unless you really deal with that at the beginning or at a core level, you're kind of locked in.

You have to transcend that feeling.

Well, you have to understand that the body dies and something called impermanence and emptiness.

So the fact of the matter is like nothing's permanent.

I've been fucking with you.

I'm coming with that grasping of the permanence.

And then even the idea of emptiness.

There is no real, there's no real Mark Marin.

There's no real David Harbor.

It's like there's a voice box, there's a this, there's a that, there's a body that's going to die.

It's all going to move.

But it's making its mark.

Especially when it's shitting on all the other cats.

Exactly.

Sorry, it was beating up the other cats and shitting on the floor.

But yeah, so that's like, you know, where you begin with this stuff is that, you know, it's funny.

There is a paradox.

There's a paradox too, though, in this, where they believe that the body dies for sure, but they say that there's no birth and no death.

Okay.

And so there's just something called, like, even when it's your birthday in Buddhism, it's just your continuance.

Yeah, but something continues.

Yeah, it's just a live day.

Now, I, in my egotistical,

you know, nature, my desire for self-transcendence or whatever, like you go into reincarnation.

I went into a big kick

a couple months ago with

past lives.

See,

that's why it can't be a fair job.

No, but it's not real.

I mean, it's my bullshit.

The real people will laugh at you for it.

But no, but I went down the road to make sure that my quote-unquote soul was preserved.

And I met the

little kid from Egypt that I was and the spider.

Yeah, a spider.

And how'd that work for you?

It was a hypnotist, hypnotherapist.

Oh.

And you go under.

Another clinician.

PhD.

Yeah.

MD.

DDS.

Nurse practitioner.

Yeah, he had the Duel.

Certified.

It looked green.

He was bomb on the board with the gold legging.

Sure.

And yeah, we're going to do it for you.

We're going to have to get away down from, you know, you're walking down a staircase.

And now you're in a corridor.

What's the door in front of you?

What color is it?

It's red.

Yeah.

Because there's a door to your right.

What color is that?

It's green.

Okay, we're going to open that door.

Five.

Do you have a choice of doors?

Like, let's make a deal?

I don't know.

I mean, I guess she determined the door.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, she hypnotist.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know if it was based on my color or not.

Because, you know, I thought it was at first.

I was like, oh, yeah, you don't want to go in the red door.

Sure.

You want to go in the green door?

That's bad.

Yeah, sure.

It's clearly traffic lights.

Your psyche works in traffic light terminology.

But I, yeah, but she, you know, go in this door.

And then

every time I did it with her, I did it several times.

And every time I did it with her, she'd always make me turn to the right and go in that door, no matter what color the door was.

Yeah.

So I think it was sort of a shtick.

Ideally.

But yeah, you go into the room.

It's a room of your subconscious, room of your understanding, and you, and, you know,

what's the room?

Yeah.

It's like, oh, it's a cathedral.

There's windows.

There's ivy on the wall.

Oh, okay.

Let's go check out the ivy.

Oh, yeah, it doesn't look so good.

It's a little like murky blue.

Oh, let's get a garbage can.

Let's take all the ivy.

Let's put it in.

Let's ask the ivy who it is.

Yeah.

And, you know, then you're

the spider walks in the room.

And you're like, that's me.

Yeah.

And we go back to the spider's life.

We go back through the spider's life.

Okay.

He bit somebody.

Oh, that fucking fell.

You can't get through life.

It was terrible.

Oh, he did.

The spider felt bad.

I mean.

This is again where it sort of breaks down because it becomes like

forced out of the forest and

died.

I think

you're right at the precipice of writing a children's book.

I think you just pitched me a children.

I really achieved.

I've really got somewhere with all this therapy and all this searching.

Amazing.

It's like, well,

that's why, you know, who was it?

Bruno Betelheim, you know, wrote an entire book of psychoanalysis of fairy tales.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's sort of like, I think these kind of archetypes or whatever they are,

they are historical

and mythological.

And I will say, like, therapeutically, there's no, it doesn't matter if the past lives thing is real or not.

It's happening imaginatively in your psyche for some reason, for some narrative.

Yeah, I guess

I don't know if I go there.

If you learn something from that narrative, who cares?

Well, that's, and I think that's how you're approaching the Freudian therapy too, is that you're, you know, you're...

That's exactly right.

Right.

You're filling yourself up with possibilities and different ways to interpret things, right?

Yeah.

And sort of carving out your own narrative reality.

Well, that's it.

And I did find that, like, for me personally, because

we talked on the previous podcast about, you know, the problem with

I've been through like medications and I've been through the rigmarole on that side of the equation.

No more?

No, I still am.

I still do go through it, but I go through it a lot less.

Partially it's age, but partially it's because you can carve out and craft

a narrative

reality that works for you.

Yeah, yeah.

And where you have some self-understanding and some compassion.

Trevor Burrus: So I think the better word then is for all the exercises of exploration is it's informing your narrative.

Yes, that's correct.

Yes.

Right.

I get that.

And I mean, the interest in acting comes from

an interest in the same thing of carving narratives, but it's a little more chaotic because you're doing it for in service of something else that you may not have chosen.

Yeah, but

the more you inform your own narrative, the more possibilities you have in creating narratives, I would think.

Why not?

Yes.

Right?

I mean, but you don't fuck with Jung?

Sure, I fuck with Jung.

I fucking, you know what?

I'll tell you

how much I fucked with Jung.

I ordered on Amazon, not like four months ago, the Red Book.

Have you ever seen this book of Jung?

I don't know.

Okay, it's about like this big.

It's the size of a Bible.

It's like 300 bucks or something.

And you put it out on the table.

It's the illuminated red book manuscripts.

It's basically just a rant.

Like it's just him on a rant.

I started reading it

and it's insane.

And I'm just bored to to tears and put it down.

But

I do like some of his

things.

It's good that you can acknowledge boredom.

I mean, and you don't force yourself to like,

I gotta get this.

I couldn't do it.

I can't do it anymore.

I could when I was younger, I mean, with Thomas Pynch and all that.

Sure.

But I think with Young, it's like if you're going to look at the cockfight, I think, between Jung and Freud, you know, as Freud was, you know, attaching everything to either

mythology or

transference and mother issues.

And Young was like, I'm going to take it all on in a vague way.

You pussy.

We're talking mandalas, baby.

I like them as gunfighters.

That'd be a good movie.

Alchemy.

Yeah, yeah.

Fuck with that.

Do a little more blow, CD.

That'll help you out.

Yeah, I mean, I suppose it is.

You take it on in a more imaginative way and you sort of open it up.

Yeah.

I wish I was more, like, I think my struggle for the self that lives in the world has been so

hard

that that's been my primary focus is how do I accept me as opposed to like, you know, why not get rid of it all?

You know, like, it's been such.

It's like I'm 61 and I'm finally comfortable in my skin most of the time.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Congrats.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, you know,

but if I gain five pounds, it's all.

I'm glad it's still that tenuous.

Oh, of course.

Every day's fucking tenuous.

It's like, you know, like, yeah.

I don't like to hear you say that from 61.

Yeah, but isn't this the thing?

Yes, I guess it is.

And I get, well, I guess that's the search is to get present, to get, to get real comfortable living in that present moment.

Yeah, well, I mean, to be like, this is what we have.

Well, that's the interesting thing about the type of stage work I do because I can make it present.

Like, you know,

crowd work is

a big thing now.

And that's not really, you know, that requires immediacy.

But when you're on stage, and I'm sure you've had the experience too, even in a character, where you're sort of like, what's that thing on the floor?

Oh, for sure.

So, and that is, those are the best moments.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

I think I told you, I'd tell you about that time I saw Buried Child.

I feel like I told you.

No.

It's like it was one of the greatest pieces of theater I ever saw because

it was Terry Kenney

played the brother.

Okay.

Right.

Was he the vet?

I think so.

The guy comes in at the end with all the corn.

Yeah.

So it's like it's Gary Sinise's production.

And, you know, and there's that scene.

It's towards the end.

I think it might be the last bit where he walks in with all the shit fucked up corn.

Yeah.

And one of the corn cobs falls in that moment and it just starts rolling down the snow.

And I'm like, this is the best thing that ever happened in theater because the corn rowing upstaged the entire moment.

And they all had a sit in it.

Yeah, it's fantastic.

It's the best.

I love that stuff too.

I love that stuff.

But yeah, the present, you know,

fuck, man.

I had that with Chris Walking.

And I saw.

I saw a fellow in the park when he was like 14 years old.

Chris Walking as Iago.

And like, he's on stage in Central Park doing this monologue about Iago and hating the more.

And a little squirrel just came right on stage at him and he just stopped and looked at him went bah

it was the greatest moment and

really yeah that's the best moment it was incredible that's the best moment in the history of shakespeare yeah probably incredible yeah

but that's those are those moments that like and i just was watching um a documentary on andy kaufman who kaufman andy kaufman it's a new documentary okay it's called thank you very much now like you know i i appreciate him and i i have him in the proper uh amount of respect and awe but I can't say as myself that I necessarily got laughs or enjoyed it that much.

It was more of a sort of like, I get it.

An intellectual thing.

Yeah, but after watching this documentary, I'm like, all right, well, this is deeper than I anticipated.

Because, you know, the director really went after his, you know, youth.

Like,

what made this guy?

And he was a big TM guy.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, and he, there's a piece of film on there.

I'd rather watch it again because I want to write it down.

Where he asks the Maharishi a question at one of those big conferences where he says, well, what's the point of entertainment?

Wow.

And I can't remember what the Maharishi said, but he was talking about there's a space in between the jokes that

that's what it's all about.

So he just extended that space.

That's right.

Yeah, he kept pushing it.

And the space that he would create through discomfort or challenge or things that had no definition, that he could create a space where an audience would be like, what is happening?

You know, and

is this,

what do we, how are we supposed to,

and that is bringing somebody into a present because you transcend all their expectations and you subvert them, whether it's intentional or not.

So they don't, like, the present is like, this is completely out of the context of anything we expected, and I don't know what to do with this.

Yes.

And that that that is the present.

Yes.

So yes.

That was that's kind of brilliant.

I like that.

I like that.

You know what story of yours I quote all the fucking time.

Jesus, here we go.

All the time.

It's like one of the best stories about acting I ever heard.

And I talk, I told the story a million times.

It's just about, it was you talking about how

you're in a play.

Like it's on Broadway and you're about to go on.

That moment where you're like, you're saying, you're hearing

you're hearing the guy saying the line that's going to get you on stage, and you go, somebody get me a script.

Yeah.

That is the best thing ever.

It was like six months into the run, too.

It's the best fucking thing ever.

Yeah.

How much more present do you need to be?

And then you just go on and your body just remembers it.

Oh, my God.

But that moment.

Absolutely terrible.

Like, but the fact that there's nothing's going to help you.

Yeah.

I'm just completely

rifling

trying to land the plane.

There's nothing.

Yeah.

But do you, so do you, now at this point, do you have a daily practice then?

Of the meditation and stuff?

I mean, I'm kind of going through trying to find something, to be honest.

And I guess when I'm in it, I do feel, when I'm able to do it,

I do feel better.

I did it a bit during COVID with

the Headspace app.

Oh, okay.

You know, like just 15 minutes sitting and breathing.

Yeah, I just do this thing.

I mean, you know, some of the most effective ones from this Tignahangai are like, breathe in, present moment, breathe out, wonderful moment.

And it's just like, or breathe in, I am home, or I have arrived.

It's that simple.

I am home.

And you just got to surrender to it.

It's that simple.

I think it's deceptively, yeah, unintellectual.

I mean, it's deceptively simple.

Because I can see the thoughts coming and going.

I can do that part.

But that's what you're not supposed to, like, the whole idea of

training.

Yes.

yeah i can i can do that part it's training to be alive in the present moment yeah i can do that oh well that yeah but i want to get to the big kids indido but where's the big sort of like well that's a great question the bliss of everything

i want the everything bliss i don't know that that's where

it it goes.

I think I don't know that it's a drug.

Oh, well, that's disappointing.

Exactly.

How does that feel?

It's a problem.

I have the same problem with it.

Like, how was the day you realized that?

I mean, I guess what it does is it does allow you non-suffering.

It's theoretically, you explore the origin of suffering and then you have non-suffering.

All the sort of like ego-driven, compulsive attempts to alleviate suffering, they just wear out.

They just wear out.

And it's disappointing.

You know, like, you know,

when, you know, one day you're just sort of like, I don't even want to jerk off.

And it's like, it's a kind of a terrible moment.

I know.

I know.

And food stops working.

You're just sitting there like a bunch of people.

Well, so that's the question.

Like, where do you go from there?

That's right.

That's where I am.

I mean, because, well, okay.

I'm kind of with you.

Yeah.

Because like the pleasure-driven life or like the escape from suffering just into pleasurable experiences doesn't really at a certain point.

It's like how much you only eat lunch once a day.

It's like, who cares?

You're just going to shit it out.

And you're just like, you know, kind of like trying to get

existential relief out of a pint of ice cream.

So where do you go?

What's your practice been?

Well, the idea that

a lot of lip service to

the idea of vulnerability, right?

Okay.

So

if what you're trying to escape is rooted in discomfort or the fear of exposure or vulnerability or whatnot, and then from there you go, like, well, am I capable of intimacy?

And then from there, I go is like, why is that even important?

What's the answer?

Because I, yeah.

Yeah, well, well, the next thing is like, I'm all right by myself.

You know, I can, you know, I got records and, you know, I'm going to talk to the cats.

But there is supposedly this

way of attaining some sense of humanity and

wholeness, maybe, through through intimacy, intimate relationships.

And

I just don't know how it's satisfying.

And I don't know how it's not just sort of like, you know, redundant.

You know, like, great, we're both sitting here, you know, you're knitting a thing and I'm over here with the book.

What?

Well,

I don't know that it necessarily just has to relate to that one intimate relationship, right?

No, yeah, I'm capable of it.

It's like everybody from the barista at the thing to the whatever.

It's just

a constant sense of vulnerability.

And as they talk about in this stuff, like interbeing, right?

Yeah.

The fact that like

I make you as much a piece of me as I am to myself.

And I think that.

Do you say that to the barista?

It's the opener.

And then it's like, I would like a latte.

Or it's you would like a latte.

And then eventually, you know,

the word is spread throughout the coffee shop.

It's like, here he comes again.

And eventually

freak out of here.

They start locking the doors.

You eventually wake up to what you've been doing and you're like, I can't go to that coffee shop.

I love that the goal is intimacy and all you do is push people away with your over-sharing hippie bullshit.

Yeah, yeah, my brother's like that.

It's like, I get it.

I get it.

I get it.

What's going on with the pickleball?

It's so true.

Oh, God.

But

how's work?

I mean, great.

What?

Yeah.

Great.

I mean, and that really is the, that's the only thing that I really do understand, right?

Yeah.

Like, you do something.

I just intrinsically have loved doing it since I was five years old.

I've never stopped loving doing it.

Yeah.

And you know that it brings joy to other people.

Yeah.

Like, there's nothing,

it's purely like if I could do it just 24-7,

I think I'd be great.

I'm not sure that my work always brings joy.

Oh, come on.

There's a few people out there.

I think they feel seen and relieved.

Yeah, that's joy.

Yeah, yeah.

That's a feeling of.

Like last night.

How about this?

It's useful.

Your work is useful?

No, that's right.

It brings community.

There's a point of view I share

that is not

the standard one, but it's not alien.

And to the people that feel the way I feel, and there are a lot of them,

they feel seen.

And in this political climate,

my shows have become like

support spaces, like safe spaces where they know how I think.

And these are people that are terrified and nervous and rightfully so, but they know I'll speak to it and speak to

the sources of my own

kind of struggle.

And it really does have this feeling of

community service in the sense that everyone's pretty isolated.

Everyone's locked into their phones.

They're just destroying their brains every day with this kind of like

hopeless nonsense.

And, you know, just to get them in a room with other people.

And I think that's the power of theater and film.

If people go to the movie theater, that, you know, so, but like I'm on stage last night in a comedy set and I had this idea yesterday

about, you know, the nature of, well, the thing I was meditating on, you know, I don't know if you, you, uh, you, you kind of get little phrases or mantras or whatever, but, but what I, what the last two days, it's been a quote from Hannah Arendt.

Oh, yeah, that says, the death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism.

Wow.

Yeah.

So that's what, you know, then I breathe.

That's incredible.

Jesus.

And so like, so like last night I'm doing a credit set.

That was a wonderful moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

yeah.

So I'm doing a comedy set and I said, you know, I was just kind of playing with this idea, you know, with

with us informed a bit by later Carlin, where I'm like, you know, where the idea was like, hey,

the leap from fuck them to kill them is a pretty pretty short leap.

All it requires is permission.

Yes.

And incentive.

And a presidential pardon.

It's pretty big incentive.

Right.

So I wanted that laugh.

But

what I got was, what's happening?

People were not wanting to go down that road?

Well, I don't think people think like that.

Oh, really?

Not most people.

Most people are just sort of like,

what?

What?

I guess.

That seems really clear to me.

I know.

But I don't think just on their side.

I think on our side.

I mean, I don't think there are sides anymore.

No, no, no.

I just think we're, we, all of us with this device and with the, are just continually beating at this thing of like, we're, and this is what I say about interbeing.

We're different.

This person is different.

This person is separate.

This person is other.

And I'm going to either dominate this person or feel worse about myself in relation to this person or whatever.

And as you say, like building community, building empathy is the antithesis of what that phone is.

Yeah, it's an empathy killer.

And it happens.

And in that way, a civilization killer.

Exactly.

And it happens so subtly because we adapted so immediately to it.

Like I'm doing a bit now about how I think my phone is my primary emotional partner.

And it is.

Of course, you get everything you need.

You learn

the way people hold it and the way they look at it.

And the way they cradle it, the way they put cases on it.

I mean, myself included.

It's just there is a fetish to it as like, you know, not even a dog or a cat, like as a primary partner.

Yeah.

Like a girlfriend.

It's a panic when you lose it.

Yeah, you're always holding on to it and making sure you have a lot of people.

I do this thing where I'm like, you're on it, you know, and you're getting everything you need emotionally.

And then you're sitting across from your human partner who's on her phone.

Yeah.

And occasionally she'll laugh and you'll go, well, what is it?

What is it?

And she'll go, I'll text it to you.

And that's the nature.

Right?

But there's also no way a human, I mean, this is maybe an AI discussion too, but there's no way a human can compete with the attention

smorgasbord, that phone.

So the idea of like human relationships, I'm just going to fundamentally be more boring than that phone.

So you're going to have to accept that and want that to accept it.

We have to get back to it.

Well, we got to figure out, I guess we got to figure out why we need to get back to that on some kind of visceral level.

I feel like I do know, but I feel like it goes into this very meditative, simplistic thing that I'm talking about with the no-self thing, as opposed to, because if we just want stimulation, titillation, entertainment, the AI and the phone, that's the way to go because there's no way a human being is going to be able to compete with that.

I even think about it in terms of the movie business, like

we're training audiences to like

from when they're young, to like really quick snippet things and even to like things that are somewhat false.

Yeah, like I don't know if we're training audiences to like the ickiness of being a human.

Yeah.

And so, what place does film have anymore?

What place does television have anymore?

What place does theater have anymore?

Especially if they're just accommodating a content marketplace that is attention-driven.

Like this idea that, like, you know, you can't do anything longer than a half hour because people just can't pay attention.

I'm like, yes, they can.

Right.

They can.

I mean, you're just supporting that

equation

because of a content-driven marketplace.

But people are perfectly capable.

I mean, you know, I sat through the brutalist, you know, and

like, it was great.

Right.

So, like, that's a false premise.

Well, I think it, you know, it's funny to me, what I'm noticing, and again, this is like, I think

what I like about films, because I really, I sit down every time I watch a movie now.

Yeah.

I think, why do we need this?

Yeah.

As opposed to

give me an AI, give me a, no, like give me something that's colorful, that's going to have like some jokes that the computer can come up with.

Why do I need something that's going to be

rich and weird like this?

And I think it has something to do with the slower dreamlike quality of being a human that consciousness provides.

That there is something that isn't quite real, and there's something very technically specific about the silicon-based life form that really wants data, information,

quantifiable specificity that I think is

as human beings, we don't want so much of it.

And I think that's going to be the divide

in a like blurriness.

Well, there's also just the basic

drug

model whereas like, you know, these quick beats are endorphin jackers I mean when you scroll yeah you're getting a hit one way or the other whether it's down or up and it's quick you know like years ago the one of the only things Dennis Miller ever said that and I don't know who wrote the joke but it never left me it was like in the early days of the internet Dennis Miller said the internet is going to make crack look like Sanka

it's true but I think for me because I find a tremendous amount of solace at this particular point in history from watching good films And it's not, it's only because, you know, there's a humanity to it.

And if the story is told well and authentically,

there is something nourishing about it.

Do you think that a 20-year-old audience member understands

that concept?

But is it my job to make them understand?

I mean, I don't know if it's your job, but it's

somebody's talking.

Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, where are we going?

Well, yeah, well, I mean, I'm almost done.

Okay.

So how is that my?

We really are no self.

I know.

Okay, we figured out that.

Yeah, I don't know.

I mean, I think it's kind of our, I think it's kind of humanity's problem, though.

Maybe not.

But I've, you know, why are we, I think certainly it's an industry problem for Hollywood movies.

Well, but if you, if you create a generation

that is really, you know, for most practical purposes, just an extension of the technology

because they've surrendered to it or have been given the opportunity to engage with it at such a young age.

You know, where does an elder even begin to talk?

Well, where's the fight?

Like, how do you, where's the fight?

I don't know that they see it as something to fight.

It just is.

You know, you're saying the fight.

So you think 50 years from now, films won't be made?

Well, I don't know.

I imagine that you could probably go to bed at night and tell your phone to make a movie for you the next day

and

tell it what length you want it and what you want it to be about, and it'll come up with something.

I know.

I know.

I know.

But I think even when you talk about Shakespeare, which is not my bag,

I mean, the reason why it

remains and persists and is engaged with is somehow or another that fucking genius was able to encompass, you know, all the sort of foibles and manifestations of the human spirit, you know, in these dramas and comedies.

That there was something about...

And you think the more we get invested in the technology and the phone and the more we get attached to it, we still

remain with those human foibles and qualities?

I don't know.

Right.

See, the thing is, like, I really, it turns out that the brain is much softer and easy to manipulate than we ever assumed.

I mean, the way that people adapt, even to tragedies, is baffling to me.

That, you know, you kind of move past it very quickly and you adapt.

So the thing was, is that, you know, this was some great convenience and it made our life easier, but the adaptation to it was so quick and the relationship with it is so immediately deep that I think it rewires.

all of it.

I don't know what humanity looks like.

I mean, I had an interesting experience where I was very curious about this perspective on what it is to be human, where I did a Twitch stream

with some streamers and we were, you know, and they asked me a question about

roles I choose, like whether or not I wanted to be romantic in my roles, basically.

And I said, like, I didn't need to, I can play various roles, and it doesn't necessarily attach to me like it would with someone like Tom Cruise, where it's like, you have a brand that you put.

But I said something along the lines of like, you know,

you guys are performing when you're on this Twitch stream, like you're presenting a version of

yourself.

And they all were like, no, we're not.

This is us.

And I was like, that's a really interesting perspective.

Yeah.

Because it's to me,

are we training younger audiences and younger people to not even acknowledge the fact that they might have darker or weirder or things that they don't want to reveal?

And those because of the panopticon, are we just actually eliminating?

that part of our personality or pushing it so far down in the subconscious that we actually believe that the panopticon, what people see, is what we are.

Yeah.

And that was

scary for the future of film for me because I was like, okay, then you don't need us to reveal ourselves on film anymore.

You do just need.

I don't know.

I still think that no matter how repressed it becomes or suppressed or it still exists.

Well, I think that, you know, those moments, there are moments that you can have in well-written

theater or film or anything

that will find it.

Pierce, yeah, pierce the veil.

Yeah.

Yes.

And then all of a sudden, you got to deal with, like, what's happening to me?

Yes.

Exactly.

And you just, instead of crying, you're just shaking your leg and you don't know why your body is.

Yeah, I love that.

I love that.

That is like the function of great art.

And I would say that it just works on you in a certain way.

That's like me and my therapist.

Yeah.

Just coming to, you know, on Thursdays.

Where all of a sudden a connection is made.

Yes.

Like that scene I think of for some reason.

The one that keeps coming up because I watch Black Mass a lot.

Really?

Yeah.

God, you watch Black Mass a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's become one of those.

It's hold up.

It gets better every time I watch it.

Really?

Yeah.

I've only seen it once, I think.

Because like, you know, I think initially I was like, well, you know,

the depp makeup was an obstacle for me.

Yeah, overpowering.

But then once I got past that and I looked at the other performances and the script, actually, in terms of, you know, this is a gangster movie, you know, based on a real story, and it's fucking great.

And it's just great.

Like, you're great in it.

Joel's great.

Those performances, specifically, you know.

That's depressing when he's in that place and he's got to kill the

dude.

But even in the, in the, all the guys,

when they're being, you know, when they cut to the interrogation interviews, you know, there's those moments where, you know, Plem, they're interrogating Plemens and then the big guy who was also great, where, you know, having lived in Boston and met real mobsters, guys who have killed people, there's something they're missing that

is

tangible, but you couldn't, you know, it only comes from that.

And for some reason, Rory,

you know, got it.

Yeah.

And so did the other guy, the big guy.

You know, I forget his name.

Such an interesting dude, that guy, too.

I remember one.

Who Rory?

I really liked him.

You know, I interviewed him.

It's not easygoing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's in a deep place.

Yeah, but he was so, I remember like loving him.

Do you remember the movie Empire Records?

Uh-uh.

It's like a weird little comedy movie.

I remember him in Dazed and Confused, where he was just.

Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

Same kind of character.

But the moment that I was talking about with you is when you know you're fucked.

And Joel's like, no, no, we got this.

We can get, you know, you remember?

You're like, no, we're fucked.

We're killing kids or something.

Yeah, yeah.

Where, you know, where they're on to you and to this, the, to the, the scam with, with Whitey, where Kevin Bacon is.

Yeah.

And you know that the jig is up.

And this is before you do the TV interview or the newspaper interview where you decide to

talk.

But, you know, but Joel's sort of like, ah, we get out of this.

And you're like, dude.

What are you talking about?

Yeah.

That moment, like,

it'd be impossible for someone to watch that and be like, I don't get it.

You know, like, it's like

that.

And everyone has experienced that moment at some point in their life where it's like, no, it's, it's over.

Yeah,

it's like, what are you even thinking?

And I think that ultimately is the moment you want from humanity in relationship

in relationship to the technology.

And Tor, you know, it's just that moment where you're like, holy shit,

this is done.

We, you know, we, you know, we've been found out.

Yeah, I don't know.

Does that ever come?

I don't know.

I mean, how does that come?

My demented dad said something very interesting to me, and I, and I can't get it out of my head because when they have dementia, there's a poetry to it.

You know?

Yes.

And

it was not really, it wasn't in context with anything.

I mean, I talked to him, and he's still, you know, a good part of him is there.

But it's also a Zen thing, too.

And I don't really know what to do with it.

But

it wasn't really connected to anything.

But he said, you know, you got to take the consequences or create your own.

Create your own consequences.

Right?

What does that mean?

Exactly.

Because it's like, that's all we do.

That's what like the weird sort of shame-driven, compulsive person who, like, you know, who, who can't stop himself.

All you're doing is generating possible consequences or you're acknowledging that.

You know, it's just, to me, it was such a weird, I don't know what to do with the poetry of it, but I like it.

Wow.

He's got dementia.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And he comes out with bangers like that.

Sometimes.

Wow.

Sometimes he'll come out with a banger.

And it does explain a lot about him, you know, where, you know, if you've got a guy who's, you know, living a secret life and getting away with it, but knows that it's not right,

you know,

the challenge is to create your own consequences enough to where you stop, you know, to where, you know, you are the guy saying it's over.

Right.

We're done.

So you think humanity is going to be able to do this one day?

I didn't say that.

Oh, sorry.

I'm sorry.

I thought that's how we were going to wake up from the phoning.

It is, but I don't know if it's going to happen.

Okay.

I'd like to think that.

It depends if the technocrats win and we're all just given numbers instead of names.

Yeah.

yeah

but what but you and i you know you

you know coming out of

like i grew up primarily in the 70s so what we're what we were dealing with was the the sort of wave crashing of the 60s but everything that the 60s had to offer was there for us and it was fairly close by

and and so the arc of you know, once

computers happen and, you know, there was a time where, you know, you didn't know if anyone anyone called you until you got home and checked your fucking yeah god I love it so I right but but there was a time of organic analog existence yes and and locality yeah and we have that foundationally yes and and that that's all gone so in some ways we are the keeper of a weird flame you know in that

you know we we were there for that but it's very easy for the phone and for technology to erase even that part of our history because everything is available without context anytime.

Right.

And, you know, I don't know.

I tried to hold on to a bit of that in terms of, you know, what

inspired me and what creative freedom looked like at a different time.

Yeah, I talked to Pacino, you know.

Really?

Yeah.

How recently?

Right before the book.

For the book.

And it was one of the.

What was he doing?

It was great because

it changed.

It was really kind of life-changing life-changing for me in approaching acting, you know, because I was about to do a lead in a movie and, you know, and I don't have an actor's confidence really.

And it's not my, it's not, it's not ingrained in me how to do it.

Okay.

You know, but the thing that was most interesting about him is that I didn't know him and I know his work.

And a lot of that work is very intense and very controlled and has a certain amount of swagger and confidence to it.

And I thought that's what I was going to be dealing with.

No.

No.

No.

He's a sweetie.

He's a sweetie.

He's a mess.

Yeah.

And he's like still chasing it.

You know what I mean?

He loves acting.

Yeah.

And he's very aware.

But the thing that blew my mind away, that blew me away was that, you know, he never looked at it.

you know, until he had to make compromises because he's not great with money, but he never looked at it as anything other than a pursuit of truth.

Yes.

Yes.

And I think that in light of what we're talking about, like whether film is going to be important or what we do is important or all this stuff, that the artist's mind and that he was so clear on it from an early age when he was hanging around with the living theater,

cleaning up with Martin Q,

that what he saw was that

this is, you know, it's a finding truth.

in the craft and in the arts and and that he still has that.

It's not a job.

Right.

And I think that I mean, that's what I was raised on, too.

Right.

That's what I'm saying about what we came up with.

Right.

And how that, you know, it's very easy to, you know, to sort of generalize about like, I don't know if kids are watching movies.

But the truth is, is that.

Yeah, what are kids drawn to?

But our job is, well, they're drawn to truth.

And whether they can identify it for real or not, I don't know.

That's what's becoming a problem, both in terms of

just basic news, but I think also on the level of one's individual humanity.

When When you have a kid that says, yeah, well, I mean, truth also, truth is, is truth empathy or is it survival of the fittest?

Like,

you know, when you're saying being drawn to something.

I mean, I think Al is a very sort of big, big-hearted, empathetic person.

That's why he's acting in the things he does.

And even when he's playing gangsters and killers, he's searching for that humanity within them.

That's right.

He's searching for this level.

That's right.

Right.

Yeah.

But you could look at the world and say, like, oh, it's a shit show of capitalist swagger on who's going to be on top.

I get that.

And as a kid, you're like, that's what I want to be.

I want to be the dominant.

I want to win.

And I think that,

you know, the fight is not only technological, but the fight is for truth itself, right?

Truth itself, right?

And also what is foundational to civilization.

I mean, I get that.

That's correct.

And like, do we want to be civilized anymore?

That's the question.

Yeah.

Do we want to be civilized?

Well, that's the henna-arent.

That's why I'm festering on that.

That, you know, once a culture loses empathy,

it's at the precipice of barbarism.

For sure.

You're saying that people don't have that knowing laugh.

No.

See, and that to me, I mean, now we bring it back.

That's scary.

Because if you're not even aware that

there's this battle going on,

that they really have one.

Well, fundamentally, authoritarianism is not

civilized.

The idea of civilization and certainly democracy is that it's about

diversity and equality

and tolerance and respect for marginalized or vulnerable people, that we all kind of rise together.

And that's fueled by empathy, right?

And that seems to be

historically challenging, but nonetheless, idealistically,

the best way.

And so once that goes, you know, once that starts to tip towards people being able to other, you know, like it's not just, you know, blacks or gays or Jews, but this sort of catch-all phrase of woke.

Well, that's, that's, you know, that's,

those are all the good people.

So once you.

Well, you got to be careful because you

don't want to other the other side as well.

Yes, I do.

Well,

you're playing a zero-sum game then because you're not.

Am I?

What am I fighting for are we fighting for truth no we're fighting for community okay and so i think that like

you

you have to i don't know i mean i i think that

look when i talk to them one-on-one i'm fine and we're fine and that's the thing like

people are people and i think that the thing the fight we're fighting is the technology i mean the fight we're fighting and the brain fuckness yeah but it's it's the it's the the thing itself it's the form itself it's not the people no i get it but the people are being manipulated to a point where they lose their humanity.

So how do you, like, you know, I don't know how you get that back.

And certainly some of them, you know, I'm sure a lot of the Nazis were like, you know, what do you need, a donut?

You know, so

I mean, it's a tough one to bring up because it's impossible to like challenge that

once you bring a Nazi into it.

It's impossible to like, it's impossible to argue.

It's impossible to argue.

No, no, no.

All I'm saying is I knew some Nazis, great guys.

You know, we used to go.

You can't, I mean, you're right.

You sort of lay down your Trump card with that one.

And you're like, you know.

The Trump card.

The double encontrage.

Sorry, I didn't mean to.

But

I guess what I'm landing on here in terms of our question about, you know, what is the significance or relevance of what we do is that that pursuit of humanity, community, through

truth

in art or performance

is all we can do on some level.

Is all we can do.

Yes.

Agreed.

And all we at this point, I'm thinking all we should do.

Yeah.

Like I

is it going to work?

I don't know.

I mean, right, but it's the only place where I have a gun in the fight.

Right.

It's the only place where I can be effective.

Right.

I've realized it's really the only place, you know, if I can show something beautiful, if I can embarrass myself in a certain way to make you realize that it's okay to live another day with

more of an open heart and to see someone as human as opposed to a monster.

Then, yeah, that's the, to me, that is the battlefront.

And it's the skill set that I have too.

Great.

Yeah.

Well, I think we did it.

Did we do it?

Did we even start?

Is this thing on?

Oh, fuck.

I didn't turn it on.

Jesus Christ.

Wow.

We did it.

We picked up right where we left off.

Elves in the corners.

Yeah, elves in the corners.

And here we are.

Yeah, well, we got rid of the elves.

We moved past the elves.

Yeah, we we moved past the elves.

Thank God.

We're into Zen now.

I'm still back in the self, though.

I don't know where I'm going to go from here.

Well,

I mean, you know, it's a long day.

It's a long day.

I got plenty of time.

It's early.

I got plenty of time.

Give me a cup of coffee.

We'll see where I head.

Good to talk to you again.

Yeah, you as well.

There you go.

Thunderbolts opens in theaters everywhere tomorrow.

Hang out for a minute, folks.

Okay, people, there's a new bonus episode full of outtakes and edits from recent shows available now for Full Marin subscribers.

You can hear what it was like the day Nick Thune came over and my audio mixer crapped out.

How did you feel about that?

I was kind of spiraling out, and

I saw somebody spiral worse than that this week, so I um well, this was minor, yeah, this was nothing.

I mean,

what was the worst one?

A similar situation, a sound situation, no, it was a boss to an employee, and it was

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Yeah.

So the boss was mistreating.

Yeah, and for you, you're just mistreating your equipment.

And myself.

Yeah,

you are taking it out on yourself.

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And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Here's some simple

standard Mark Maron guitar playing.

Boomer lives, monkey and the fonda, cat angels everywhere.