Episode 1633 - Gavin Matts

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Lock the gates!

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, nicks?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Merrin.

This is my podcast.

WTF, welcome to it.

I imagine you chose it.

You didn't just walk in, wonder what's going on here.

What's happening here?

Who's this guy?

Who's he talking to?

I don't think I've ever heard of that guy.

That's the interesting thing about

when people see me post the guests on a social media platform.

You know, people are like, who?

Like, that's my fucking problem.

Look it up, fuck.

Who?

Today

we got a Canadian fella, Canadian fella on the show,

Gavin Matz.

He's a writer and a comedian.

He's also in the cast of season four of Hacks, which premieres today on Max.

He's got a special out called Progression available on YouTube, and he was brought to my attention by the woman who opens for me on the road, Ali Makofsky.

So I figured, okay, well, if these youngsters

are,

you know, telling me what's up, let's have a conversation with this Canadian fella who enjoys it here in America.

I wonder if that's changed since I've talked to him.

But that aside,

what's going on with you?

How are you holding up?

How are you adapting to authoritarianism?

It's all happening so quickly, isn't it?

I don't mean to trivialize anything, but sometimes you got to take a glib tone just to find yourself a bit of relief in a moment.

Am I right?

But it is kind of fascinating in terms of the way global politics and American culture is going.

It's an amazing thing, the achievements one can accomplish with a complete lack of empathy.

I don't know

if that's part of any motivational speakers'

system

other than straight-up fascists.

But yeah, the things you can accomplish with absolutely no sense of empathy.

And for most people, empathy has to be honed.

It has to be engaged.

It has to be worked on, especially in a world where we're self-consumed, self-absorbed, self-centered, and entertaining ourselves endlessly with algorithms that have been chosen for ourself and our desire system.

Where is there room for empathy?

Where is there room for considering the struggles of others when you're completely engaged in your own emotional spectrum being triggered by garbage that you let into your face?

Huh?

And I'm not speaking down, I'm speaking over.

I'm not different than any of you.

I am speaking to myself.

I mean, look, I've got got a dad

who

has dementia.

And

before he had dementia, my dad was always a fairly, I would say, you know, I'm no psychiatrist, but I would say he was pretty close to pathological narcissism and the full spectrum of emotions that

comes with that and defends

what's at the core of that, which is a profound, I think, infantile emptiness and probably rage.

Again, not a psychiatrist.

But as he gets more demented,

as

that illness progresses, what doesn't go away, what's interesting is that

I don't know, look, again, I'm not a clinician and I'm not a caregiver,

but it seems that what's left once all the systems start to break down and their ability to socialize and

think or remember their breakfast goes away, you know, I think what's left over

that still comes to the forefront is something that's probably the deepest.

beyond memories.

It's a character trait of some kind.

And with my dad, the one thing that seems to be holding on

is a very deep,

fuck you.

There's

a very deep kind of

rage at the edge of the void.

The void of death, the void of

the injury,

the trauma.

Fuck you.

And my dad was always one of those guys.

He knew his particular craft, which was surgery.

He knew his skill set.

He knew the world of medicine, but everything else he didn't.

And I think in some ways that was always, you know, kind of

an insecurity of his.

But I think the fact that I kind of sought to be a thinker and try to engage with stuff, that he needed to sort of,

you know, kind of meet me there there somehow

or compete with me somehow.

And the way that kind of manifested was just

provoking me, trying to get a rise out of me, instigating arguments without a counter argument, just acting out of kind of ego and insecurity and figuring out a way to push buttons.

And that gave him a great deal of satisfaction.

Now, I think that, look, you know, he did have a full range of emotional behavior, but usually it was a vacuum of need

or an aggressive expression of pushing you away, pushing me away, whoever.

But, you know, his disposition got him into a lot of trouble over his life.

And what's interesting about what just happened over the last few days around,

you know, this tariff chaos is that this is a guy not unlike my father

who uh is is his sort of strength is is not real strength it's it's based on a profound weakness of of of sense of self of ego and also at the core of it is is just a void

And

at the edge of that void is

whatever's

left of that guy just saying, go fuck yourself and getting whatever he wants and then just watching it go into the void and then just getting more, trying to fill it.

So what you see in the actions, and this is, again, not a clinician, not a psychologist,

is just an angry, dumb old man

who is obviously politically adept.

in terms of manipulating people and frightening people.

But I think at the core, you have a guy whose mind is slipping, who has literally all the power in the world,

who at any given moment, if he's not getting all of the attention, you know, feels like he's disappearing.

So every day he has to figure out how to get a rise out of the world.

How do I get a rise out of the world?

And not unlike my father, when all of a sudden

people that he wants desperately to like him,

I think for the most part, he truly doesn't give a fuck about

people that don't like him, and he'll just beat on them.

But the people that he wants acceptance from or wants to appear smart to, if they turn on him,

or if his reflection in the

the movement that he started

starts to get ugly, then, you know,

he just retreats.

You know, hey, hey, come on, I was just, you know, fucking around.

You know, I was just, you know, ah, see, look, I got to rise out of you.

But the problem is, is that, you know, he is the most powerful man in the world.

Kinda.

I think on some level, despite what he thinks, he's still sort of a puppet of people who have actually intelligently and

dubiously and probably demonically, you know, achieved massive wealth.

And that's really the club he

has always created an illusion that he belongs to.

But in terms of intelligence,

he's really just an angry,

you know, armchair bigot.

The armchair might be gilded and gold

and

the floors might be marble, but he's still just a guy yelling at the TV.

But now he's got all the power in the world, and he just wants to get a rise out of the world.

A guy who is thrilled at terrifying and

through negligence, probably killing

his detractors

because because of his power.

It's a horrendous charade, and it's a fucking threat to the

existence itself for everyone.

Yeah, how are you?

Nice to see you.

Sorry.

Hey, I forgot to do this.

Tomorrow, I'm in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

GLC Live at 20 Monroe.

Saturday, I'm in Traverse City, Michigan at the City Opera House.

In Los Angeles, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter Monday, April 14th, Saturday, April 26th, and Tuesday, April 29th.

Those are all at 7.30.

Then Largo in LA for an 8 p.m.

show on Tuesday, April 22nd.

In May, I'm coming to Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and then Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th.

Go to WTFPod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets.

Yes.

Getting a rise out of the world by creating chaos.

Certain types of people just like pushing buttons until someone spins out and then they just watch the show.

Push those buttons until things just get

chaotic and untethered beyond anything you could ever expect.

And just watch the show.

Watch it unfold.

So outside of that, I guess

things are not great here at the house with Charlie.

He's kind of half a zombie.

I'll deal with that when I get back from my dates.

I don't think I'm going to keep him on the Prozac.

As for me, I went to begin the process of getting a crown in my mouth.

I've become very fascinated with dentistry.

It's almost like being a jeweler.

You know, the tools they work with, you know, some power tools, but some very fine, you know, fine picks and files.

But, you know, I'm fascinated with root canals.

I'm fascinated with the

process of putting a crown on.

And, you know, as you get older, you know, I have gum recession and I'm always worried about my gums, but it turns out my gums are very healthy because I'm obsessive about them.

Take good care of them.

The recession, it turns out, is because I have a crossbite.

My bite is fucked up, has been my whole life.

But with teeth, it's interesting when you look at x-rays, and now I'm going to have like one of each type of

fake tooth.

I've got one implant.

I've got one root canal.

And now I'm going to have a crown.

I think I might have two crowns now.

And it's funny, as you get older, you know, I was talking to the dentist about my bite, and the dental assistant was like, you know, they can still fix that.

And I'm like, yeah, if they break my jaw, there was a reason I didn't want to do that in high school.

That I didn't want to be the kid who has to eat through a straw with his fucking mouth wired shut.

I was too vain for six months.

Braces didn't work.

But they're like, you can always fix it.

And I'm like, you know what?

I can't.

I've lived this long.

If we can just make the teeth last until the end

or put ones in there that will,

I'm good.

But the idea was, like, it's just fascinating to me because, like, this one tooth that I had to get a crown for had a filling in it from when I was a kid, and there was a crack along it because of my bite, which only lands on this tooth and the one on the other side.

I can only chew with like four teeth.

three or four teeth and the pressure on it was you know a lot for a lifetime and there was a crack in it so there was the outside chance that you know when they started when they pulled that filling out to create the basically the post for the crown out of the tooth I have it might have been cracked all the way through and they would have pulled it all out I would have needed another implant so you're right on the edge of it man how's it gonna go

and then the jewelry work starts happening you get four or five novocaine shots your old fucking face is numb and they're just going at it the smell of burning tooth from the drills a lot of this sounds terrifying but i'm like you know what's going to happen look at this jeweler at work and they got to craft me this little gem of a new tooth

so they drilled out that fucking filling and it turns out didn't go all the way through then they fill it up with some hardening goop to create the little post for the new piece of jewelry that is going to be in the back of my mouth I don't know.

I guess if you enter a dental situation with fascination, also just a root canal, it's like, what the fuck?

Who figured that out?

You want to create a post out of what's left of your tooth, but we got to file out those nerves and make them inert.

It's like, it's like,

on some level, dentistry can be a racket, but on that, you know, tooth-by-tooth basis,

it's just kind of fascinating.

It's very,

it's very kind of delicate and

nuanced, you know, work that has to be done, you know, in a very kind of small space.

I think it's kind of fascinating.

And I'm also, you know, now I've got a temporary crown on.

I just got to hope I don't fucking swallow it.

Chew on the other side of your mouth.

Yeah, I'll try to remember that.

Okay, so Gavin Matz is here.

He is in season four of Hacks, which is now streaming on Max.

He's Canadian.

This is me talking to Gavin Matz.

I think it's only we're days away from a

sort of undeniable constitutional crisis.

Yeah.

And if that happens, then at least we'll all know.

Oh, I know.

It sucks because, like, I've been kind of mourning, having dreams, you know.

Interesting.

Morning having dreams.

Yeah.

Do you think

well, it just seems also silly to be like, what?

I would love to be in tv and movies yeah

it is kind of weird right because you start to like i i wonder about that

i mean i like i'm on the other side of it like i could leave

i could be done theoretically sure i'm not i'm kind of just only starting

and that's what the morning is yeah

i know that i know that feeling the morning of possibilities yeah exactly i'm like i just started to think things were possible and now and now you just gone i've kind of been at the tail end of everything, though.

Yeah.

Like, I'm like the last generation of like

weed being cool.

You know what I mean?

Is weed not cool?

No, you know what I mean?

Like, everything has kind of become corporate as I've gotten older.

Corporate weed?

Corporate weed, you know?

Yeah.

It's just an example I was thinking because Mac Miller came on while I was driving and I was like, oh, I remember when that came out.

Yeah.

And it was like, that's when like you'd still be like smoking weed, like buying it from a guy who like.

There was a whole

lifestyle to it.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, like, yeah, you'd have to go wait for the guy to stop talking.

Yeah.

Go get the weed.

Then you have to smoke with him.

Yeah.

Hear the new record or whatever.

Totally.

CD.

Totally.

Maybe listen to him sing a little, rap a bit.

Yeah, mixtapes.

I'm in a mixtape era in a garage.

Well, how old are you?

I'm 30.

Wow.

You know, I didn't know who you were.

You know, you got to thank Makofsky for this.

Yeah,

100%.

I mean, Allie texted me and I was like, yeah, I would definitely

go on.

I was like, I guess he had cancellations.

He was probably supposed to talk to somebody who was on an Oscar run or something.

Yeah, and the fires fucked me up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then a lot of people bailed.

I'm like, I better load it up.

Yeah.

No, but I mean, I do like this, you know, when I started the podcast, it was like mostly

comics.

And like, there is a whole generation of comics.

I don't fucking know.

I didn't know know who you were and then I watched your special and she she talked you up and I thought well this guy seems intelligent yeah so let's talk about this morning yeah that's it because I don't know I don't know how to contextualize it either like what happens to show business in the in light of this and I there's part of me that thinks well

Netflix will do whatever it needs to do to accommodate whoever needs to accommodate to make their stockholders happy.

So that'll be just

another oligarchy of some kind.

I mean, these are all businesses now, too.

It's just like the thing of being like, punk is dead.

Well, yeah, punk is dead, but now the Republicans have somehow co-opted punk as, you know, now it's just cool to say the N-word a lot

and wear a hat and, you know, and be.

Oh, damn, I'm in a hat, but

not that kind of hat.

Okay, it's hard to tell with the hats.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's hard to, you know, when you see the hat and beard guys, you don't always know what team they're on.

Yeah.

I feel like dad hat is fine.

Like, if you got your hat low to your head, sure, okay, yeah, sure, that's good.

Yeah.

But a lot of times I see dudes, you know, wearing the flannels with the beards i'm like he's you know that guy oh no and then they're just sort of like hi and i'm like wow yeah i had no anticipation of that coming out yeah you can be beta in a flannel that's fine well it's like i did a bit about the uh being an alpha pussy yeah yeah

i don't like beta yeah it's called alpha pussy alpha pussy using words weaponizing words in the right way to manipulate people well what do you think about it like what is your what is your thoughts in terms of why do you feel like you're not gonna be able to go forward or or or is it that

you're gonna be up against something

i mean i just think you know talking about things becoming corporate i feel like you know comedy which drama

is primarily just a stand-up and yeah and that's kind of corporate i mean even this podcasting whatever is like you gotta have a podcast but it's just but this isn't i'm not this is well no no no no we're not filming this no we're this is analog baby We're old school.

We're on the way out.

Yeah.

I'd do it the original way.

Yeah.

Before people could afford small TV cameras in their garages.

I know.

You got to have an 8K camera set up.

Well, that's the whole thing.

It's like there's no, it seems to me that.

That mainstream or old school show business is just sort of over and they have no way of really, you know, knowing how to get audiences other than glomming on to people with a lot of followers.

And then those people are like, well, we don't fucking need you at all.

We've built our own show business.

Yeah, I feel like it's also just like, you know, know, more rich kids more than ever.

Yeah.

Like coming into the comedy space.

It's supposed to be an escape for people with nothing and just ugly people and people with nothing.

Yeah.

And then that's kind of where like the crowd work and easy kind of jokes come in, I found, because it's like these people with camera setups that.

Well, all they're going for is a crowd work, but you know, well, where'd you come up?

Where are you from?

I came up in Vancouver.

That's where I started.

I actually, who was Sophie Buttle, who was on the show last week.

We lived together for like two years.

As a couple?

No,

friends in a one-bedroom apartment, and I had the bedroom, and she had the living room.

Yeah.

And just doing stand-up.

Back when there was a club there?

Yeah, there was the comedy mix and the yuck-yucks.

And I was working like excavation in the mornings.

Excavation.

Yeah.

Helping build a Walmart.

Oh, okay.

Just flattening the ground.

Yeah.

Real ditch-digging work.

How was that for you?

I mean, I mean, I mean, terrible.

I worked for my cousin who, you know.

So you're a Vancouver guy?

Yeah.

Like born and raised?

Born and raised.

Yeah.

Because I spent three months up there, and, you know, I'll have this conversation over and over again because I'm waiting for my PR to come through now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And,

you know, now it's kind of urgent.

I'm bothering you.

I'm waiting for my PR to come through here.

I can't leave the country right now.

You can't leave here?

Yeah, because I'm waiting on my green card.

For, oh, you mean if you leave, you won't be able to come back?

Yeah, my

no, if I leave,

I forfeit my petition.

If you leave America.

Yeah.

So you're waiting for your green card from America.

Yeah.

And if you go back to Canada, even for a vacation.

Yeah, I can't right now.

I'm still

waiting on my travel papers and like, you know, the, which they didn't cut the,

what is it, the USCIS.

That's not one of the

government.

The government, whatever, immigration,

that hasn't like lost funding, which is nice.

And I've been reading about it on Reddit.

Yeah.

So people are still getting their petitions coming in.

As Trump's being inaugurated, they're like, thank God, I got my green card.

I'm not so worried because I'm white and

look like this.

I don't think ICE is coming for us.

Gonna knock down.

Well, no, not ICE, but what if the, I mean, there is a fear of like, he'll just lock us all in, but you kind of want to be here.

From my fear, it's like, what if they lock us all in and I can't get in?

Yeah, I gotta get on a sitcom, Mark.

Lock me into NBC for sitcom.

Are you going?

Do you have a time machine?

Yeah, I'm joking.

I'm joking.

They do make them, though, dude.

Yeah.

There are these sitcoms where I'm like, who the fuck is watching it?

And it's the people that still watch television like that.

Hey, man, I sent in a tape to be Tim Allen's son.

I'd get on Tim Allen's new show.

He's a mechanic now.

Is he really?

Yeah, he's salt of the earth.

You're kidding, right?

I'm not.

I'm completely serious.

Tim Allen's back.

He never left.

He was just

well now, like, that.

They're the dominant voice in culture, I guess he can proudly be that.

He shouldn't have any problem now, right?

Yeah, this is also my problem: this is what's popular, but I'm like, especially comedy, I'm like, that's supposed to be counterculture.

So I just like, why is that popular?

Why are you doing that?

Who?

Just everybody.

Yeah.

Everybody.

It's not even like a who or a what.

It's just like everyone is like aligned that way.

No one evolves anymore.

Well, it sounds like you have some standards.

Where'd you get them?

I mean, when you were coming up, like, how you're 30 how long you been doing it 11 years yeah so you're you're punk yeah

yeah you know it's funny because you're like i'm i feel like just again just beginning but it's as everything crumbles but um yeah but it always kind of feels like that though now it's the world though before when i started it was comedy in general that like at that time you know it was after the boom in the 80s so there was this like yeah the 80s comedy boom and every club you'd go to the guy be be like, I don't know what's going on.

Last week was packed, you know, and you don't know what week they're talking about.

Oh, yeah.

It was just, it had died, you know, and it was dead for a long time.

And there was not a big club thing.

And the sort of, you know, road headliner thing had kind of stopped.

So, so comedy was dead, but that is the opposite

now.

I don't think so.

I think it is dead on it.

Like, clubs are dead.

Unless you're in like a city where people go to them, like in New York or something.

Right.

You know, like,

But I think if you go anywhere, club's kind of dead.

Because the people, the big acts, they don't do clubs anymore.

Whereas we used to just go to do clubs and you'd be like in the club.

You'd be like, who's that?

You know what I mean?

They do four or five shows in a week.

And now if they've got the juice, they can just do one night at a theater or two shows at a theater.

Or an arena.

Yeah, I don't know what that is.

They want to go see someone at an arena.

I don't know what that is.

I've never wanted to see someone talk there.

Have you ever been to an arena show?

Have you ever been on one?

I've never been on one.

I've never been on one, but I've been to one for fun.

Oh, really?

A comic?

I've been to a couple for fun.

I'm going to one even in March for fun.

I'm going to go see Sebastian.

At the arena?

Yeah.

Do you like arena shows?

No.

Isn't it just a bunch of people watching the monitor?

I've seen Kevin Hart in an arena.

Why?

I just want, I just think it's funny.

To know what it is?

Just to go there and be like, I mean, that's what most people going to a show and they're like, I'm going to see him in arena.

They just think that's like the biggest stage they can see that person on.

So I think the environment itself is funny.

I never understood the appeal, though.

There is none.

But like, why do they all go?

I don't know.

I'd rather see somebody pop into like a 60-seat place.

Or yeah, or do like, you know, an hour in a, like a reasonable size venue where there's a sort of intimacy to it.

Of course, where I'm like feeling like I know the person.

Yeah, or that you can at least connect with a crowd that size.

Of course.

And when anyone that's like, they can even connect in an arena, I'm like, well, they're lying to you and

you're easily lied to.

I guess, but you have to, your whole pace changes.

Everything, you know, has to have this,

you know, everything has to be pretty big.

And I just don't know what the experience is.

And, you know, and I like some of those guys.

I don't mind Sebastian.

No, I'm not shitting on him.

I know.

I know.

I think he's funny.

You know, he does a, you know, he puts a lot into

throwing those jokes out there, a lot of physicalities like an athlete.

Yeah, not a lot of people.

I can't do that.

I could.

He has to wind up.

I barely am moving.

Yeah, you're

barely moving.

But Nate doesn't move much.

He does arenas.

That's, yeah, that one, that I kind of, yeah.

I think, I guess,

I guess people like to be part of a big thing and, you know, and just listen to a guy talk.

I mean, when you go to see Kevin, is it like a rock show?

I mean,

I'd only see, I saw him like when I was still in Vancouver.

I went.

Are they like hooting and hollering?

Are they listening?

No, it was a bad show until he went on.

Oh, yeah.

And he had a lot of openers.

They seem to bring a ton of openers.

It's like one guy and nine guys doing two minutes.

Even like

I was, I live in New York now, but last week I went to a show at Madison Square Garden that my friend gave me tickets to see people play Dungeons and Dragons live.

Sold out Madison Square Garden.

But it was called D20, and it's actually like.

Are you a D ⁇ D guy?

No, no, I'm not.

But I went and the vibe was good.

I did not know what was going on, but like it was really positive and like well dnd nerds are not they're the bad they're not the enemy yeah no no no i was like it's probably the opposite of when kill tony was in msg exactly yeah so wait so like what do they're wearing the costumes or what do they do some people are in costumes they're the people on it in d20 they're a part of this thing called dropout which is just like improv it's like they're from college humor so they're all like people that have been doing improv and and sketch comedy for a long time so the dnd becomes a framework for the improv yeah okay yeah it's it's fun but they're just like all seated down there's nothing really to it but i like going to shows like they're not moving they're just sitting like this they're just playing dungeons and dragons yeah dude it sold out madison square garden yeah

i don't know what's happening i don't either do it well i might get a cyber truck you know what i mean i'm crazy what do you what do you think is happening is it

like i mean it's queer that people are craving some kind of communal event, of course, right?

And that this is something they do with their friends.

Maybe they listen to a podcast, but I guess they're just going to be part of this community.

Yeah, people were preemptively cheering for things that I didn't know were coming.

How would you know?

I know, but before they roll the dice, yeah, like they, they like, or they would say something, and I guess that would remind them of something that happened in a previous episode and their storyline.

And I'm just like, that's nice.

I'm glad people have that.

Yeah.

You know?

I know, but you would think, isn't there a way to get people moving and more, like, I guess it's socially proactive, but when you think about politics and stuff, it's like, how come that?

We're the good folks who can draw big with the politics.

Yeah.

We're the people facilitating possible change in the world that can make a compelling Madison Square Garden appearance.

I don't know.

God damn it.

I don't know.

But

there was an improv riff on hedge fund managers and crypto and everyone in the audience boot.

Oh, good.

Well, there you go.

So I think they kind of align politically.

We're moving forward.

We're getting people to believe in us through Dungeons and Dragons.

So the anti-corporate, there's an anti-corporate nerd contingency within the D ⁇ D community that might actually help us out.

100%.

That is

what I'm here to tell you about today.

In this lost episode.

This lost episode?

This is not a lost episode.

No, no, no.

But you're in Vancouver, and I i guess when you live there there is a a limit to it remaining exciting or or you wanting to stay there there was just no future comedically there i i mean i i don't know i was never like thinking about that but i just like kept doing stand-up and then and i was doing it all the time and i was eventually and i was coming down and trying to visit la with like what money i had once i turned 21 and then

i um And then in 2017, I won Canada's top comic, and that gave me like 25 grand, and that's how I got a visa.

And then I was just like, okay, I'm going to go like rough it, you know?

2017, Canada's Top Comic.

Yeah.

How does that work?

It was like a competition with Just for Laughs where it was like to get to the finals, you like.

There was a first round and that got you voted into a voting round.

And then the voting round got you into a top eight.

And then the top eight performed at Just for Laughs in Toronto at the Queen Elizabeth Theater.

And then, and then you did like a seven-minute set.

And you were, who were you up against?

Kathleen McGee, who is in a great comic who just passed away.

She passed away.

Yeah, she had cancer for a while, but she's very funny.

Yeah.

And

Kelly Taylor, Kyle Bottom, just Canadian comics that, you know,

no, I think they would try to, and I think they were quite mad, honestly, at me because I was the youngest one there, and I was kind of being like...

as a being a little jerk.

Were you?

Yeah.

What style?

Just cocky?

You know, just like, this doesn't matter.

Oh, diminishing.

Diminishing.

The event.

Diminishing.

For the people

who thought it was the biggest night of their life.

Yeah, yeah.

That guy.

Yeah, real regret on that kind of behavior.

The buzzkill guy.

No, the buzzkill.

I mean, yeah, I mean, fun for me.

You guys don't realize, like, even though I won, it's not a big deal.

No, no, before that.

Oh,

but I was doing it.

I was, I think I was trying to do some kind of

yeah, exactly.

You're trying to keep your own shit together and then, you know, not consciously undermine the other people.

Yeah.

Oh, good for you.

Yeah, but I mean, I was 23, so hey.

But why'd you get into comedy?

Who were the people that, like, you know, what drove you there

when you were a kid?

Like, what did you grow up with?

You got a lot of

young family?

Yeah,

I have two younger sisters, an older sister, and then my mom.

I had a lot of cousins because my mom is like the youngest of like 12.

Oh, my God.

So I was like...

All Canadian.

They're all Canadian.

Deep Canadian.

Like generations of Canadians.

No, my mom's dad was

British.

And then my mom's mom was like French-Canadian.

I don't know a lot about my dad's side of the family.

What happened to that guy?

He's around.

He's a good guy.

Are they together?

Yeah, they're together.

Oh, you're talking about him like he's out of the picture.

No, no, no.

I just don't know a lot about his family because, I mean,

they had a falling out when I was really young.

The whole family?

One of his brothers sided with his parents, and then

his other two brothers,

they're still close.

Oh, okay.

But they're all over the place.

Yeah.

What'd he do?

He worked, they're all kind of fishermen.

He worked for Fisheries and Oceans Canada, my dad.

And then my uncles are like fishermen and contractors.

Like out in the boat?

Yeah, out in the boat.

Like my uncle Murray Moose, I call him.

Yeah.

He lives in

Alert Bay, which is like deep Vancouver Island.

Really?

Far, far east.

And he's got a boat?

Yeah, I got a little yellow boat if it's still the same one.

Yeah.

My uncle's got the same boat he's had for a while.

My uncle John.

They're both fishermen.

Yeah.

And they go out and they fish and then they bring their fish to market.

Yeah, and they like smoke fish.

They make my uncle John used to have a deli.

Yeah.

I remember that was like my favorite thing as a kid, going to his deli.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just have even, he makes such good like

sausage.

Really?

Yeah, they're real like salt of the earth, like good guys.

He smokes his own fish and makes his own sausage.

He had a deli.

Yeah.

We could buy it by the pound or eat it in-house.

Yeah.

And he's eat sandwiches.

And you'd go in and hide the Nepo hookup.

I would get free pepsi you know what i mean it's a good time could go behind the counter oh yeah yeah yeah my mom worked as like his like bookkeeper for a while in like the attic of the deli my god this seemed like the future that why not that future the fuck is wrong with you you can still go back dude he sold the deli you know like um what this was on vancouver island no this was in like uh langley like oh yeah yeah and he lives kind of out in fort langley kind of alder grove area now and he would like he was like building houses.

So he got out of the fishing racket?

Yeah, but they still fish and they go up every year to this place, Winter Harbor, and they have like a trailer there.

But the fish that he smokes, does he catch them?

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

That's the fucking life.

It is the life.

Like, that's why I'm going to Canada now.

Because I've just been recently.

Hope I can go.

I don't know.

I hope I don't.

Well.

I just want to have options, dude.

Of course, of course.

But that sounds pretty good.

I always say, I'm like, I should have been a fisherman.

I always say that.

Yeah.

Like, I don't know if I'm too old to get into the racket.

No.

No.

I don't know if I'm too old to get a boat and learn the things, but maybe I could do it in a leisurely way.

Yeah.

Maybe I could go out, catch some fish, smoke them, hang out, have a friend over.

Yeah, try this fish.

I mean, I remember

I used to go out on like long trips with them.

On the boat?

Yeah, we'd go.

Well, we'd go on a a fishing trip for like a week and we'd spend every day like on the water.

And

they'd play like Kid Rock before it was problematic.

And we'd, I remember catching big fish to Kid Rock play.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just out there in the ocean.

Out there in the ocean.

Did you see like whales?

Porpoises, whales,

orcas, all that.

Fuck, dude.

Yeah.

What are we doing?

I don't,

I don't know.

I need to get on Tim Allen's show.

I don't know.

Is that why you're out here?

No, no, I'm out here doing a little, I just finished yesterday a little part on the new season of hacks.

Oh, that's good.

So I've been coming out here doing that.

What's that part?

I'm a writer in Deborah's writing.

In the show.

On Deborah's Room.

In the writing room?

Yeah.

So it's a pretty relaxed part.

It's the longest I've ever been on a thing.

How long were you on it?

Since the beginning of October.

Yeah.

On and off.

Yeah.

And then.

So you're in the writer's room of the new show that she's that what's her name's hosting?

Yeah, which I think I could have said.

Yeah, that's fine.

Yeah.

Everyone knows that that's what's happening.

You don't have to tell.

I'm not going to ask you what the dynamics were or what makes it an exciting season.

Yeah.

Or what Hannah's character is doing.

Yeah, I dive some stuff with Hannah.

And

she's great.

Yeah.

Hannah's the best.

So it's interesting.

You're really kind of doing it the old way.

Like, you know, you're doing the comedy.

You seem serious about it.

You have a point of view.

You're like, fuck the man, but you're like, but the man needs me.

Yeah, yeah, you can't, I can't, you know, in capitalism, I can't completely separate in this, you know what I mean?

I am a cog in the machine.

I never was able, like, I never had a handle on auditioning or acting.

I was all yelling.

There was no way I was going to fit on a sitcom.

So, like, despite wanting to do it, I was just not, it was not going to happen.

Yeah, it's never like come my way.

Like, I mean, I've done a couple things.

I mean, this is the longest, but I'm just like, you know, and for that reason, you just focus on stand-up, but I don't want to like post, really.

Post your stand-up?

I don't want to do it how everyone's doing it.

I mean, what is it?

You mean like crowd work?

Yeah, sure.

Just like, you know, just the constant social media of it all.

So

I feel like I bite myself in the foot sometimes by doing that, but I kind of just like doing stand-up and working on it on my own.

And then maybe, I mean, you know, work hard and people will see it.

Yeah, yeah.

Even with the special, which like, I couldn't have done that without all things comedy or like Burr helping.

Where did he see you?

I'd done

his, the show that he did, The Ringers on comedy.

Oh,

yeah, yeah.

And I did a set on that.

And

then I just had a relationship with them.

And I pretty much just like sent what I was working on at the time.

And then they gave me money to shoot an hour.

And where'd you do that?

In Vancouver at this place called the Biltmore.

The Biltmore.

Yeah.

It's a little rock club.

Yeah, it's kind of interesting because

there was no

kind of

sort of effort to be like, yeah, it's a show.

You just kind of come out.

It seemed like there was a few people there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a few people there.

It's all the second show because the first show was awful.

What happened?

Just getting heckled by this lady who used to cut my hair.

The whole show.

Yeah.

Couldn't shut her down.

I tried, but eventually it's just like no one was kicking her out.

It was during like just for laughs, and there was no, it wasn't, it wasn't like a comedy club or anything.

Oh, so you did it during the festival?

Yeah.

So you got the festival poll.

Yeah.

But the fact, but you knew the woman.

Yeah, I knew the woman, yeah.

And she fucked up your whole first show.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you got that all on tape, and you had to, you had to, you know, in between shows, you had to be like, I mean,

totally like marriage story, punch the walls,

losing it.

Yeah.

But yeah, but then the second show works, and I like it a lot.

I'm glad I have it.

And I'm like, it did what I wanted it to do.

And I works with the title, and I'm just happy with it.

And

what was it?

Progression?

Progression.

Yeah, so what was the idea?

You had an idea?

You had a theme?

Yeah, I have an idea for like, you know, the future, if that ever happens, to do a little like, you know, Kanye West 4 tied together kind of things.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So there's going to be several progression and then and then the one that I want to do now, which I feel like, because I taped that like two years ago,

and I finally have like, I think what I've improved on, I'm trying to do another one that like matches that kind of,

you know, progression of style or whatever called present and just more in the moment.

And okay.

So it's sort of like a James Acaster idea, dude.

Yeah, I like him a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like he might be, and, like,

there's only like a couple people who really think about what they're doing on like the grand scale of like doing

their body of work, you know.

Yeah, I did a series of

albums.

One was called Not Sold Out.

Okay.

The other one was called Ticket Still Available.

Okay.

And then the third one was Final Engagement.

Okay.

Now, I don't.

Because I was done.

You quit.

Well, no, I.

You were done with that.

No, it felt like the last.

It always feels like the last one to me.

And

not sold out was literally

like 60 people.

And it was right after 9-11

at Stand Up New York.

And I just had a guy who had a DAT recorder do it.

And we put that out.

That was the first CD.

And it was like, it was reissued later.

But it was,

you know, it was a very loose, fucked up show.

And then Ticket Still Available, I did in Seattle at,

what was that place called?

The Underground.

Yes, yeah, was it the Underground?

There's the Underground is the one place that I knew that I did it a couple of times right before it closed.

Terry?

Yeah, I think so.

In the basement, kind of like no, that was that was better.

That was why am I forgetting?

Oh, laughs, then maybe?

Not laughs, it was the other one, and now I'm spacing it out.

Like

Terry used to own the club.

He'd sell the tickets, he'd serve the drinks, he'd open the show, and then he'd try to rip you off.

I can't remember what the fucking name of of the club was why is that why is this happening but it was it was it's a horrible little club but you know had low ceilings it was all right and and i just called him i said you know i need to you know i need to you know make a record and we did that there and it wasn't sold out and uh and then the last one final engagement same thing i was just out of my wife had just left me and uh i was like

All this shit was very loose.

I was very angry.

And I was, you know, heartbroken and just full of fucking hate not really hate just

anger emotion right so I laid that down over four shows none of them were sold out and and they're out there and Louis Katz said that final engagement you know really saved his life it helped him out wow yeah so that so I delivered you know for one guy yeah that's kind of all you want right you want one person I mean, like, I had like one, I had like,

yeah, just like one person I'm cool with.

I don't need an arena, no, no, yeah, because when I got familiar with you, obviously I'm a bit younger than Louie, so yeah, I missed those and like, um, but thinky pain.

Oh, yeah, that was one, that was of that ilk

where like it was before Netflix was a thing, it was just an hour and a half of kind of half thought out stuff.

Yeah, I remember watching that, I was like, man, this it was like right when I was like getting into comedy, you're like, anyone can do this.

No, no, I was like, man, he's just gonna sit sit down right away.

I was like,

I was like, this is fucking blowing my mind.

He sat down right away.

When's he going to get up?

I got up a couple times.

Yeah, you did.

That was a decision, dude.

The sitting down.

Like, you know, I was like, you know, I did my share of running around.

Look, I tried it for a while.

I think

you couldn't hold it?

No.

I mean, I mean, off of that's your influence.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, what I noticed was that there were a couple, it happened later in my career because, you know, you find that like when you're walking around, especially if you're doing,

you're trying to hold, grab them, like, and you feel this compulsion to kind of, you know, move back and forth.

I'll do some pacing, you know, still at the comedy store.

But I just, I, I found that sitting down, you know, if you don't freak out, you know, it draws the attention differently.

Totally.

And, you know, if you can hold that, you know, it's, it's your own space and you don't feel like you're running around trying, it seems desperate.

I know it does, I do things that are grounding on stage, like grab the mic stand behind me, kind of like lean back on it sometimes, but that has gone not my way a couple of times where the mic stand snapped at the bottom.

Yeah.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's happened to me at the stand in New York a couple of times and I think I owe them a couple mic stands, but I'm trying to.

It's sad when the, you know, when the one thing you need up there fucks you.

Yeah.

And then you, you're embarrassed.

You're just trying to be cool.

Oh, you're You're trying to be cool.

And then if you listen to,

and then they're like, this guy doesn't even know who he is or what he's doing.

We saw

the mic stand breaking opened the portal

into his vulnerability.

Yeah, sixth.

He's scrambling.

He's drowning up there.

Literally, he's holding the mic stand.

No bottom.

Just a true, a real metaphor for his life and decisions.

You make the joke, but you've still been upstaged by things out of your control.

I know.

nothing will ever be better than that.

No.

For the audience.

Back when you could smoke,

my hair caught on fire on stage.

That was a big moment.

Oh, that's a huge moment.

Because I had really long hair, and I used to flip it back, and I did it with a cigarette in my mouth, and I'm just doing my joke, and the front row was like, dude, and my hair was on fire.

Oh, man.

And it's hard to come back from that.

I mean, it's a vulnerability.

I mean, they felt good that I got it out.

Yeah.

But it was a bad moment.

You kind of just got to close and leave after after that.

No, you kind of, you kind of got to just sit in it, sit in the fucking embarrassment.

That's all we're trying to fight, isn't it?

Yeah, you kind of got to own it.

It's so hard.

The whole reason we get in this, it's a war against being embarrassed.

Yeah.

And so when it happens, you got to be like, take the hit.

Let's see if we can crawl out of this.

Don't run away, man.

Yeah, I try to truly, I try not to isolate myself from the audience, but I tend to, you know, yeah, like when you're up there, real sometimes us me against you thing that I've slowly gotten rid of.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I do that.

Yeah.

Like, like people talk about how like people do stand up because they want to be loved.

I'm like, that might be true, but not for that long.

Yeah.

You know, maybe a minute or two.

Yeah.

And then kind of throw something in.

Yeah, you do kind of do that.

And like, don't clap at that.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, can I actually change completely from smiling to don't.

Yeah, yeah.

What is that?

I don't know what that is.

Or else you do a joke that everybody likes and then you're like, all right, well, how about this one?

Yeah.

You don't like me so much anymore, do you?

oh i hate when i'm like now i have to close i'm always like why do we have to build to that you don't a lot of guys don't do it anymore it's it's old school yeah i i think you should probably have a closer i mean the seller you i mean the seller you have to like close

you have to close every joke yeah you have to you can't there's no you have you have to i mean you can't have any weak moments at the seller no

i mean so you have you have to i which is i sometimes i mean i've been working there for like a year, but I sometimes can feel like I don't fit in there at all.

And I'm like, me too.

But I want to work there because I do need the cash.

Yeah.

Oh, you do?

Yeah.

And the stage time doesn't work.

And the stage time I love.

And I love the rooms.

I guess I do.

I mean, I'm 61 and I still feel that.

When I go there, I feel like, oh, fuck.

Is Estee here?

Yeah.

What am I?

And I'm like, I'm me.

Yeah.

I mean, I talked to Todd.

Barry, sure.

Yeah.

And he'll be like, she can give me any spots.

She can give me any spots.

She gave me all the bad spots.

And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I can't,

how long am I going to do this?

I'm too proud to deal with that shit.

I can't, I can't.

And he's, and Todd is like, he's so funny.

He's like, he's like

my favorite.

You love Todd?

I love Todd, dude.

Medium energy was like my shit.

And I told him that and he was like, really?

And I'm like, yeah, man.

I was like, you remember there's a part of that album where you're like riffing with the crowd and you just say,

wet candy.

And he's like, and I just said, I said that like, like as a teenager, wet candy.

I used to always say that.

And I brought it up to him.

He's like,

he acted like he didn't know me.

You know, he's like, I don't remember that at all.

Really?

Yeah.

I'm like, what?

This was like formative.

We started together.

We used to wander around.

Him and I used to wander around the village, just be like, why can't we get spots?

Yeah.

But I can't, I don't have,

you know, like, there used to be a club called Catch Rising Star, and the guy who ran it was this guy, Lewis Ferrand, and he would just sort of randomly pick who would go on.

Oh, I know Lewis is around.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he works for the festival now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he used to be the bartender, and then he became the booker of like this big club.

And guys would just sit up there and wait for hours to see if he would throw them on, you know, usually after the audience had left.

And I just couldn't fucking do it.

I just couldn't let that guy have power over my life.

Yeah, fuck that.

You got to get out of there.

Yeah.

And it was the same with the seller.

You just like, after a certain point, you're like, don't tell me I have the juice.

Yeah.

Don't talk to me this way.

No?

You know, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Someone's like, you got, you got,

you're good.

You got, fuck off.

Why?

Yeah.

So what are you going to do with all this fight?

You're just going to keep plugging along?

I guess until I explode.

What is the present?

What's the idea for the next special?

You know, just about that time,

present.

Yeah.

Moment.

Yeah.

Memory.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what are your fears right now for like, you know, in terms of what's going on politically?

Why do you think, how do you think it's going to affect show business or is it just going to affect you?

I think it affects me because I care about people.

Yeah.

Which is, I think, a crazy thought.

I don't think a lot of comedians think like that anymore.

Well, I think a lot of guys are a lot more adept at the business and they get into it to make money, which was never my thought.

Yeah, because I'm.

I'm still like, what?

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

I was just on a show for like five months and I'm like, I'm fucked.

Yeah.

I'm like, what?

Yeah.

I thought I was going to get on TV and I'd be rich.

Yeah.

No?

Didn't work out.

You know, you always think things are going to be different.

And then you got to get the next one.

And then you're like, now, and then it's just this.

And I'm like,

you got to keep going and going and going.

I know.

You got to join SAG.

That's

so now you're in.

You probably made enough money to get a little insurance coverage.

Yeah.

And I got it.

And then you're like, you know, with stand-up, you're like, oh, you got to tour.

Yeah.

And you're like, I did that that when I did the last one.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

I can't again until it's better.

Well, do you draw?

In like Chicago and like in five places.

Yeah.

You know, which is fine.

I'm happy with that.

I love going to those places where I draw.

Right.

But I'm like, I mean, with when I was touring this, which I wasn't really touring, I went like kind of old school and was doing like one-nighters in like Danville, Kentucky for like 20%.

For progression?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was out there staying with divorce guys all over the country crashing on couches

recently divorced yeah got a couch to spare yeah yeah yeah just bombing everywhere really and I'm just like I you know what I mean yeah driving five hours a bomb for an hour yeah

but it got you tough you still believed in it yeah I was like this is good and when I would do it and it had like a crowd I'd be like okay great I'm like I like this well that's like a tough tough road to hoe when you do it a specific way and you're not going to waver.

Is that like, you know, you don't got a second gear that you're going to kick into to sort of get everybody on board?

Yeah, I'm not, I, and I don't think it's anything like,

I don't think my what I'm doing is like revolutionary where people are going to be like, holy shit, you got to see this guy, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I'm just

another

guy.

You know, it's not like some new sound.

Well, it can be, but you're, you know, your pace is sort of like, well, now that I know you like Todd, who were some of the other slow pokes that you liked?

You know, Hannibal.

Yeah.

Hannibal.

Early Hannibal?

Yeah, like, you know, the John Dore had this show that was on, uh, that was like all filmed at Just for Laughs, and that's kind of how I like saw everybody that I liked.

Like, Chelsea Peretti was the first stand-up I ever saw live.

Yeah.

Saw her open for

Aziz.

My mom got me a ticket as my graduation present from high school.

It was the first show I went to.

It was just one ticket

to Azee's.

And I went and I watched and Chelsea opened and I was like, whoa.

Yeah.

They have openers.

That was it.

You know what I mean?

And I was like, wow.

I was like, she's so funny and like dry and like slow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you knew it could be done.

I was like, I think, I was like, yeah, it was just like mind opening.

That was before you did open mics?

Yeah, that was before I did open mics i didn't do one until like a year later yeah when i like figured out you could do that yeah in the bottom of goldie's pizza yeah goldie's pizza marlo franzen yeah who's that um you know he had stuff like uh you know i'm an actor you might have seen me in uh

the titanic i played the boat

yeah you know you might have seen me in apollo 13 yeah i played the moon yeah he's a big fat guy oh right so his bit was oh it was huge.

Yeah, it was very hard.

And he hosted that show.

Yeah.

And you go on, there was nobody there, or was it pretty pay?

You know, there's some comics, and that was it.

Yeah.

And there was like three mics there a week.

And you got the bug and that was it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I got the bug and that was it.

There's no like grand story when people ask you.

I'm just like, yeah, I just started doing it and then I was doing it.

Were you like a Hedberg guy?

Yeah, well, I liked Hannibal first.

Yeah.

And then you go back to Hannibal.

And then you go back and and you're like trailing through and you find people and like,

yeah, all that stuff.

But yeah, it's very Hannibal.

And I was like, people would like, obviously say Hedberg to me, but I was like, I didn't know who that was.

And then I went back to it.

And you found it.

And you're like, no, that's what invented Hannibal?

Yeah, of course.

But then Hannibal became sort of like a musical act and a freak and a weirdo.

Sure.

He changed his pace.

Sure.

Changed everything.

I mean, that is kind of what progression is about is like, I'm like recognizing these things, and like, I mean, like, finding like you're getting to your own style through that.

Well, it's interesting because he got so much attention, you know, early on, and he definitely had a different style.

Yeah, and then all of a sudden, you know, he's wearing a shiny suit and he's doing music, yeah, and he's like, his pace has changed.

It's like almost like he came out of his shell.

Like, you know, what made him famous was his nervous kind of defense mechanism or his sort of just trying to socialize.

Yeah.

And then, like, all of a sudden, now he's like this big act.

Yeah.

And now he, like, he's reopening like the knitting factory and stuff.

Is he?

Yeah.

He's a cool guy.

I've never met him, but like.

Oh, yeah.

When I talked to him, it was a crazy story.

Just him sleeping on the subway and

driving around on the subway for hours.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, he really paid his dues, but it's interesting when someone's style changes that much.

I mean, I feel like on this tour, because of the world and because of my audience, you know, I've had to figure out some other approach in some way.

In what?

what?

In how I present the act.

Okay, so you're not like doomsday.

Well, I am sort of doomsday, but there's a

now that it's happened,

you know, and it feels like everybody's sort of in shock.

Boiling frog.

Yeah,

kinda.

But just sort of like they're like traumatized and it doesn't feel like it feels like it's over.

So like I have to approach it like, you know, there's one thing to sort of like call something out with anger in resistance when you feel like there's fight left.

But like right now, maybe it'll change in a few months.

I don't know.

It doesn't feel like there's fight.

It feels like there's just this PTSD

and this sort of weird kind of

shock.

So like going into it, like I've, I've started to be more like, look, you know, we're all in the same boat.

You know, it's bad.

I don't know if I have solutions.

I can reflect on my feelings about it, but I can also then from there just try to be entertaining in the moment that we're in.

And I'm not a guy that generally thinks about entertaining.

But then all of a sudden I started to realize, like, well, maybe,

you know, you can set up where we're at.

and then just entertain within that

as opposed to be like, you know, I know the answers or fuck these people or whatever.

Like the people I have, my audience, you know, they're a fragile bunch and they're grown-ups and they're sensitive and they're most of them are progressive.

So, you know, I can kind of weave in the

doom, of course, but then kind of like try to lift up a little.

Yeah, I mean, I do think now probably it's

it's an important time to push back

on,

you know, what's happening.

And I think that's that's important.

I think people will find comfort in that.

You push back in the way that, you know, you can do, you can live your life, and that's going to be on some level, if you think a certain way, an actual

act of resistance is that you can't buckle to this wave of fucking, you know,

pseudo-macho fucking fascist garbage.

Yeah.

I mean, you have to show up in your life in the way that you feel is right.

But I think a lot of people even think that's afraid.

That's frightening.

So that's the tricky part.

It's they live in these towns.

They have neighbors.

They don't fucking know.

And all these people are emboldened.

So, you know, sensitive people just go in, they

go in themselves and they just mind their own business.

So I kind of like talk about how, well, you have to continue to stand up in your life.

You know, so someone's got to hold the line and you can't just, you know, wither away.

No.

But it's hard, dude.

Yeah.

It's really, we're getting this, you know, front row seat to see how this propaganda brain fuck works on people.

Yeah, it's, it's so, uh,

I mean, the, the, I actually, like, with misinformation, I always thought it would be pretty obvious what is and isn't.

Yeah.

And it's not.

No, because the phones have like, and the, the sort of algorithms have locked people in to a belief system that is reaffirmed constantly.

And I felt like TikTok was really pushing people, like, at least from what I've seen on there and what everyone's talked about, it felt like so informative.

Yeah.

You know, for like two years.

Yeah.

And it felt like it was like kind of mobilizing like people my age and even like, you know, younger than me in like a way that like I'd never seen before, you know?

Yeah.

And, um,

and then for that to be like,

I've seen seen a switch in it since it's like shut down

to where it's quite obvious that that's been used as a brain fuck machine.

Yeah.

Well, that it's going to be.

Yeah.

Whereas like I felt like before it was more open.

Yeah, but openness, depending on who's flooding the

field.

Yeah, Zuckerberg.

Yeah, I don't know, man.

So so you're just gonna what?

Fuck the man?

Yeah, man, fuck the man.

Fuck this shit.

I just want to do a stand-up.

But I do,

but I actually, I mean, I'm joking when I'm repeating you say that, but yeah, I don't know.

I care.

I'm like, I have things I want to do.

Yeah.

Like what?

Just what I'm doing, you know, and I don't want that to stop.

So in terms of like,

you know, what one has to do to get out there, you just, you don't have the wherewithal to

feed the beast, the content beast?

Not the content beast, but you know, there's other things.

I want to act.

I like your career a lot.

I like the things you've done.

Yeah.

You're good in the order.

Oh, thanks, man.

Yeah.

You know?

I studied that guy.

I knew who that guy was.

That movie was good.

And my fear was being that guy.

So I thought if I acted as that guy, maybe it would get me out of the way

of being that guy.

It was great.

I thought it was great.

Oh, thanks.

Yeah.

I love that movie.

Saw that at like late 11 p.m.

showing at Angelica, you know, the one in New York with the train underneath it.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Down on Houston.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I, well, the acting thing, it was something I always wanted to do, but it didn't look like it was going to happen.

And it didn't happen until I was in my 40s where I, you know.

Yeah.

It was crazy.

And now I'm trying to figure it out.

Did you study acting?

No.

You're just doing it?

No, I always wanted to do it.

And I always wanted to, I just didn't know.

I mean, stand-up, I guess, is my way in, but

I never knew you could do any of this stuff.

I didn't grow up in like a, like i did drama in grade eight yeah

yeah not after that yeah yeah you know my sister she had a friend that was acting and uh i remember picking her up from uh her friend up my mom picked her up from uh

stanley park she was in a nest quick commercial yeah you know the nest quick bunny yeah and there was like cameras and stuff and i was pretty young and i was like i want to do that and my mom's like okay yeah and then that and then that was kind of like it i was like can you do do that?

Did you do any?

No.

No?

Now it's happening.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you write shows?

Are you developing shit?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you sell them?

I had a movie that was in development at Columbia for like a couple of years ago, and it kind of fell apart.

And then I just had one fall apart because somebody dropped out.

And I'm trying to take a show out, make a show.

Yeah.

Try to reach young men.

Oh.

What's your angle on that?

Just show normal.

I feel like a lot of television hasn't ever shown like normal dudes.

Guys, even though it's like under the guise of like, I'm a businessman.

I'm like, you know what I mean?

There's never anything that's like true or real to like me and my friends.

So I'm like, you know, pretty much like, what is our girls?

You know what I mean?

Right.

And what does that look like?

You think you've got a handle on it?

I think I do.

I think I'm pretty like, I think I have like my finger on like...

It's kind of a weird generation.

I wouldn't know how to characterize it.

I mean, yeah, the in-betweens of like millennial and Gen Z is like

a weird like lost years.

Yeah.

You were on Rami's show, too?

Yeah, I did a little, yeah, he gave me that, he threw me a little bow.

And you know that guy?

Yeah, I know that guy.

Those guys are doing, like, him and Mo are doing good shows.

Mo is great.

Great.

Mo is awesome.

Yeah, I just watched the second season of his show.

You finished it?

I only got through that.

I've only watched that.

I thought I had to talk to him.

okay great yeah sweet guy yeah but you know that i saw him talking um we drove down to dc

um

i think it must have been like november i mean when he was at that protest in dc we me and some friends because they're close with mo but he just ended up talking there yeah and um

was that the one with chappelle no that was him just for like he he he we were just like on the white house like outside yeah congress protesting ceasefire for Palestine.

And he talked and it was beautiful.

And then he did a show that night at the comedy loft

and

he talked for like an hour and a half and it was like beautiful.

Yeah.

He's a deep hearted dude.

Yeah.

But like, I think that when you're dealing with people that come from communities, ethnic communities, or a different heritage or immigrant story, you know, there's something important about those shows in terms of, you know, what America looks like and what being an American is, right?

Yeah.

In the sense that like when I watch like Reservation Dogs or Rami show or even Mo's show, like, you know, I'm a pretty open-minded guy, but I don't know anything about that life.

And it's a life that's built on, you know, a community that's existed for thousands of years and now they're here and how they kind of, how they hold their families together.

But there's a sense of history.

Whereas like basic white people, what do you got?

Nothing.

So that's what your show is going to be about?

Yeah.

You know, I always joke, I say, I almost had community.

You know, if Genghis Khan had made it to Europe,

we would all have community right now.

Sure.

Yeah.

But

it's a weird thing, though, to be untethered from a sense of history or community.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that's why you find like certain things to like be involved with.

And it's like, you know, similar to like people finding that like like Dungeons and Dragons and like people that like that.

Like I think those things exist and are important and they're like, you know,

they're like watering holes of like culture that like people do need and like we are losing as we get more and more isolated from the internet and like them driving us apart.

Right.

And like even like comedy and like people being fans of you and going to your shows, like I think they find like peace in that.

Yeah.

And like your voice brings them ease.

And I think that's important.

Yeah.

And like, that's like under fascism.

I'm like, you have to have those voices and people to go to and to like, you know, speak when you are scared or you're worried and you need to be comforted.

Like that is so important.

And it's like all those voices.

And that's why it's like terrible that like, you know, to end DEI and like make that a villainous thing.

It's because there's all these kinds of people and they like need somebody.

And that's what like representation is all about.

Right.

And to not understand that or push back on that and, you know, to have a platform and platform people that are against it

when you're you should be somebody who's bringing everybody in, and it's like you create this, like, you know, like Tony Hinchcliffe, like this evil, like making fun of people, bullying, and like your community is built around like being mean to people.

It just drives me crazy, man.

And I'm like, this isn't what I got into this for.

It's to be associated with those people.

Yeah.

And like, association is always my issue, especially in comedy now.

And I'm just like, I, I want to like, um,

you know, support those who like, like care about people.

And like, that's what we should be doing.

And that's like what someone like yourself is to me.

So

sorry for the rant.

It's okay.

No, and the same with Mo too is that like, you know, you diminish when you, when you silence people or marginalize them, you diminish the possibility of progress and also just, you know, different points of view.

Like these people are so uncomfortable with people that are different than them that they resent them and then eventually they hate them and then they want them to shut up or be gone.

And then, like, you know, then we're at this fucking juncture, and it's weird because a lot of the people who are, you know, 75 million people didn't vote for that guy, they voted for the other person.

Yeah, and so they're out there, but

you know, there's such a constant

like

assault of propaganda that like they're like to silence somebody,

it happens within them.

I just don't know why you can't like more than one thing.

Dude, they're just

threatened.

It really comes down to

white people feeling like they're not going to be in charge anymore or they're going to be a minority.

Yeah.

It's so fucked up.

But I appreciate what you're saying, that there is something about

entertaining the people that are like-minded.

You know, like I'm not fundamentally a leader of any kind.

I'm not going to go out there and try to start a march necessarily.

No.

But I think I can.

But you would be at one if you were invited and you believed in it.

Sure.

Yeah.

But there is this idea that like even in hopelessness that, you know, I think I guess I do this instinctively, but I'm trying to be more aware of it, that there is a need for a release or to have that sense of.

like-minded people around you.

Like it's really weird because in the first Trump administration, I felt like, you know, I'd do these shows and I'd be like, well, this is a safe space.

We We can talk here, you know?

Yeah.

I remember this.

I remember I, I, it was just like, it was like

funny.

It's not really anymore.

It's not.

No.

It was funny.

I always think that, though, it's like, you know, going back to when, like, you know, when it was like, I was maybe like

the worst person in the room.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, sure.

You know, like, and that's so, I'm so far removed from like

being a dick to anyone.

yeah you know what i mean but what a pleasant time that was yeah yeah

yeah

well it's good talking to you buddy yeah thanks for having me yeah man

there you go Gavin Matz.

He's in season four of Hacks, which is now streaming on Max.

And also his comedy special, Progression, is available on YouTube.

Hang out for a minute.

Hey, people, if you liked Monday's Monday's episode with Peter Weller, there's an extra 20 minutes of me and Peter available exclusively for Fulmarin subscribers.

You know, as long as governments tilt, this is his quote, tilt quixotically to the top of the pyramid to solve a narcotics problem,

they're lost.

Because the bottom of the pyramid, the junkie on the street,

is the thing that must be handled.

Yeah.

Interesting.

How many people are you going to bust?

How many people are you going to bust?

How many people are you going to bust?

Fine.

You're You're just taking

chips off the top of the pyramid.

Who cares?

Yeah, and using that as a cudgel to take more power.

I mean, even now with fentanyl, like the idea we're going to close these, that the big problem with Canada is that there's fentanyl coming in.

There's like 10 guys ever bringing fentanyl over, but it's a port, you know, it's a port of, it's a place of entry for Trump to have a conversation about taking over Canada.

Yeah, it is.

But it's leverage.

Leverage, that's the word.

To get that Peter Weller bonus episode, along with all the bonus episodes we do twice a week, sign up for the full Marin.

Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFPod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And remember, before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Guitar Time.

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cat angels everywhere.