Episode 1631 - Lynne Margulies

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Lock the gates!

All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, Nicks?

What's happening?

How are you?

I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast.

This is it.

This is what I do.

This and a few other things.

How are you guys adjusting to authoritarianism?

How's that going for you?

At some point, the despair and hopelessness and anger gives way to

something,

some sort of adaptation.

You can fight the fight as long as you want.

Boycott the Tesla, boycott the Amazon.

Make a sign, get out there and protest with a sign that says, please just stop.

This is is fucking crazy.

You know, bold wet or crazy.

Bold wetter, stop.

So much coming at us at all times.

Hard to be specific.

All of it bad.

Please just stop.

This is fucking crazy.

And vote and get behind people that you think can maybe surface in the future.

But how are you adapting to authoritarianism?

It's interesting with tragedy, isn't it?

COVID,

climate change.

Because eventually, you know, people are, yeah, a few days go by, a few months go by, and they're like, well, I guess I'm relatively okay.

And then you think about friends or family or people that aren't, and then you kind of feel bad and you want to help them out or try to change something.

Please just stop.

This is fucking crazy.

That ought to do it.

That ought to fucking do it.

God damn it.

It's just going to be awful for the rest of time.

You got to find out, find some sanity.

Find some fucking sanity.

Try to do the right thing by you and yours and get behind the right things.

And, you know, make those signs.

Please.

Just fucking stop.

This is fucking crazy.

I had a fucking, there's two fuckings in there now.

It's a bigger sign.

So look, today on the show, I'm talking to Lynn Margulies.

She's an artist and the co-director of the 1989 documentary, I'm From Hollywood.

And that film was about her late boyfriend, Andy Kaufman, and his foray into wrestling.

Now, there's this new doc about Andy out,

and

she's part of it.

The documentary is called Thank You Very Much, directed by Alex Braverman.

It's been in the works a while.

And I don't care if you're an Andy fan or not.

You got to know about Kaufman.

You got to know about him.

I mean, you know, he was a challenging, one-of-a-kind, comedic supernova of a certain ilk.

He's the only one.

There's only one Andy Kaufman.

And he has influenced a lot of people.

I mean, really, in terms of real punk rock, comedy, real comedy that bends reality into something that you don't really know what is happening or understand why it's happening, and you're forced into this time zone of

laughing, discomfort, sometimes repulsion, sometimes anger.

Any zone of reaction

was fine with Andy as long as it was focused on him and what he was doing.

I mean, some of it is relentlessly uncomfortable.

And for me,

I don't know that I was a fan early on.

I am a more kind of

real guy.

You know,

I'm not a huge fan of absurdism or bending reality

or challenging in the way that he did.

I just like, you know, people to put their...

their heart on the line.

And I don't know that maybe he thought he did that.

I don't know that it doesn't seem like he did.

It was more of a provocateur kind of thing, but it wasn't my bag.

But I did cultivate an appreciation for Andy as years went by.

And there's some things that he did as I get older that I appreciate even more.

And I missed a lot of it.

I feel like I did.

But his Carnegie Hall concert was spectacular.

There's a bit in there that is one of the best things I've ever seen in my life.

I talked to Lynn a bit about that.

But there is

something about this doc.

And we've talked to a lot of people

on this show about Andy, people who worked with Andy.

And we've got a a pretty good catalog of just people talking about Andy on this show, which is pretty comprehensive.

But this documentary did something that I think has never really been done.

It humanizes Andy in a way that hasn't been explored, you know, making connections in his childhood and in his life through events pre-his performing years that could somehow put him more into perspective, explain some elements of his personality, which was hard to really kind kind of nail down because he was moving through so many.

And whoever the real Andy Kaufman was, who knows who their real self is, really?

But he kind of played a lot with that.

But this doc really tries to get at that.

And I didn't know where the conversation with Lynn would go.

But, you know, we got some places about him and about the arc of what he was going through and how he seemingly sabotaged his career and his relationships in the name of

expression.

I don't think he ever considered himself a performance artist or an artist necessarily, but he was someone who had to do what he was doing.

Thank God he did, because God knows what he would have been had he not done that.

But the documentary is totally worth watching.

It's called Thank You Very Much.

And I believe it's available.

It's now playing in theaters, and it's available to watch on digital on-demand platforms.

You can go to thank youverymuch.drafthousefilms.com for more details, but it's a pretty great

portrait and biography of one of the great American artists of comedy, certainly.

And in the doc, they even got Bob Zamuda to talk like a person and really just reflect on his friendship with Andy, as opposed to continue mythologizing him and

insinuating that he's still alive or what have you.

And they talked to a lot of people who worked with him and people who had thoughts about him.

It's a pretty solid dock, and I was happy I saw it.

I'll be in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

I'm coming to GLC Live at 20 Monroe on Friday, April 11th.

And then Traverse City, Michigan.

I'll be at the City Opera House on Saturday, April 12th.

In Los Angeles, I'm at Dynasty Typewriter Monday, April 14th, Saturday, April 26th, and Tuesday, April 29th.

Those are all at 7:30 p.m.

Largo in L.A., I've got an 8 p.m.

show on Tuesday, April 22nd.

Then I'm coming to Toronto, Vermont, New Hampshire, and then Brooklyn for my HBO special taping at the Bam Harvey Theater on May 10th.

Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all my dates and links to tickets.

If you want to get in on that HBO taping, I would get in on it.

I think that the

tickets are moving pretty quickly and there's not a ton left.

In other news, let's get mundane.

Let's get to the minutiae.

Let's get to what's happening in my immediate world.

I'm finally back for a few days.

And as I've talked about before,

the problem with Charlie,

the problem with Charlie.

Charlie is my youngest cat.

Charlie is an asshole.

He's a spoiled brat.

And he's a troublemaker.

But on another level, when I leave town,

he goes through profound stress that causes him to lash out at the other cats, causes him to vomit, causes him to shit all over the house, diarrhea,

with stress-induced colitis.

And it's a problem.

It's not a fun thing to come home to.

And once he was diagnosed with this stress-induced separation anxiety thing that manifests in all these different ways, the vet, and I've talked about this before, but we've moved forward a bit here.

The vet prescribed fluxatine.

Is that what it is?

Fluxatine?

Prozac

for the cat.

And as I mentioned before, I projected my own issues with me taking Prozac onto the cat.

And

it's an ongoing conversation.

And I'm on medicine now too,

for the first time in many years.

with some confidence in it.

But I just I really was concerned about Charlie's personality.

I didn't want to mess with his assholeness.

Now, look, when you have a cat, it's an odd relationship because they're all kind of crazy and they all go through periods of

insanity that destroys your house one way or the other, whether it's, oh, he's peeing too.

outside of the box when he gets stressed, you know, whether it's pee or vomit or destruction of furniture or, you know, when they get old, you know, whether or not how long to extend their lives with

fluids.

And

there's all kinds of different phases and their personalities change over time.

I've had a lot of cats.

I know this.

But there's something about the assholes that the longer they stay an asshole, the more if you're like me, who's kind of a stubborn, assholeish person at times,

I like that.

I like it to a point you still get mad, but that's part of the dynamic is being able to go, oh, fuck, Charlie, why'd you do this

why is that a good thing i don't know

but i decided since i do have a little travel coming up and you know maybe i didn't want to deal with all that nonsense that i'd go ahead and do the prozac and that means you have to administer medicine to a fucking cat and for some reason no matter how far pet medicine comes there's no easy way or or a delivery system to give cats fucking medicine.

You know, you can't give cats pills.

Maybe some people can, but I've never had a cat that I could give a pill to effectively, you know, unless I mash it up and mash it into chicken

when I was treating monkey for the hypertension.

But there's just no fucking way, and they hate you.

You know, you're squirting stuff in their mouth and they hate you for a little while.

And I take it personally.

I'm too,

I anthropomorphize too much.

But like, I've gotten, you know, I can get the Prozac into Charlie.

So I got him on it for two days.

Now it's been three days.

And And I'm pretty sure that, like, you know, I've, I've just, I've, you know, I've, I feel like because of the nature of the dynamic I have with the few cats that I have, there's a community there.

And some part of me feels like I just lobotomized McMurphy.

It's just, it's just ridiculous.

You know, and I have this conversation with Kit.

I'm like, well, you know, I'm just don't, I don't want to lose him or change him, even though cats change.

And even though this is an issue that I don't want to deal with anymore.

But I wasn't really thinking of the cat.

You know, Kit was like, look,

you know,

he's not happy when he's shitting everywhere and peeing out of the box or throwing up or beating up on the other cats.

It's not, you know, you're providing a happier life for him.

And I just, you know, I still couldn't wrap my brain around it.

It's ridiculous.

It's ridiculous that some part of me is sort of like, hey, you know, I mean, diarrhea literally everywhere in the house.

In some surprising places, I just found some diarrhea, dried diarrhea on top top of the bookshelf

where Charlie sometimes kind of goes if he's scared or Kip brings the

bull terrier over.

So I, look,

I've come around to it.

But today I went through, like, I was like, is he fucked up already?

Is he like, he seems lethargic?

He seems like he's not happy.

I don't know what to do.

And I call the vet, and I want to know exactly what happens to cats on Prozac.

It's a lot of energy.

And I think it's probably the best thing for him at least to try it since I'm going to be away a bit.

And maybe he'll be more comfortable when I'm away.

Maybe he won't.

I mean, Buster is hissing at Charlie for days now.

I don't even know what the fuck happened in this house when I left this last time, but there was a major battle.

I'm thinking, am I doing Buster's bidding?

Is Charlie the rightful alpha of this small crew?

And now, like, you know,

I've diminished his ability to focus on being that.

And Buster, I'm just keeping Buster king, which isn't bad, I guess, but it does, you know, it's like, what am I taking away from?

See, I'm still spiraling about it.

It's stupid.

Also,

I mentioned, well, it must be a week or so that I'm taking this

medicine now,

busporine, something like that.

But it's a, you know, I decided I was done with the anxiety of panic and my brain choosing to spiral sometimes for days about things that aren't real.

They're possible, but they're not real.

And it's a manifestation of intrusive thought, obsessional anxiety, whatever.

But I decided to try the medicine.

And it's been a week or so, and I think something's happening.

And it's surprising what's happening because it gives me more confidence in the decision to take it.

Like, it's one one thing when you have, you know, cognitive problems like I do.

Like, I know what's happening in my brain and I know when it's happening.

And I can make a choice to try to stop it

in a cognitive way, you know, whatever it is, meditation or exercise or trying to stop the noise in the head or get present, whatever, you know, the cognitive tools are for stopping these patterns of thought that I am conscious of happening.

But something seems to be happening on a deeper level, which I I find interesting.

And I got to talk to the shrink about it when I go back there to check in.

But I've noticed, and I don't know if it's possible, I've noticed that I'm breathing better.

Now, I don't know where you hold your anxiety or stress or panic, but my chest tightens up, always has.

And all of a sudden, I've noticed that I'm breathing better.

And also, I'm sleeping better and deeper.

And also, according to my whoop watch, my recovery has been better than usual, which means less stress.

So I think that this medicine is operating at a deep level on that part of my brain that is constantly in a certain amount of fight or flight, a certain amount of panic.

And I hope that's true.

I don't know what other people's experience are with this medicine,

busporin.

But it seems to be that what I'm noticing before anything else is something at a level that is, you know, I cannot change cognitively, deeper.

And it's having real effects on

my body in the way of breathing easier and in the way of better recovery because apparently I'm not sleeping as stressfully or I'm not

as stressed in general doing just life stuff.

So that is positive.

Also,

and this is where you can chime in because somebody hit me to

I was talking about walnut oil.

And it's pretty common that people who listen to this show, will chime in.

And some guy

was going at it with on the email about pecan oil.

He's got this place, Oliver Farms, or something.

I'm not sure.

I should know better, but it's, I think the word Oliver is in it.

But, but they do all the oils.

They do all these cold press oils.

They got pecan oil, they got pumpkin oil, they got ochre seed oil, they got

linseed, I think.

But the pecan oil, because he said pecans are are better even than walnuts in terms of the omegas and the health benefits.

So I'm like, I'm turning into this oil weirdo.

And it's not snake oil.

It's nut oil.

I'm not even, you know, saying it's anything other than what it is.

And, you know, I'm hoping for the best, but I've become like kind of a

proponent, a nut oil proponent.

I got no grift.

I'm not making any money on the back end of this.

And I'm not trying to sell you any sort of health hockey, but I did buy some pecan oil and some pumpkin seed oil and some okra seed oil.

And the only reason I got the okra seed oil was because this guy that sometimes drives me to the airport, Tom, he's the old Armenian guy.

He had heard that okra seeds bring your cholesterol down.

I don't even know it's true.

I can't even find any research on it.

But I'm like, well, fuck it.

I'll get some okra oil.

But now when I make a smoothie, it's a teaspoon of the pecan oil, teaspoon of the walnut oil, and a teaspoon of the pumpkin seed oil.

Because those are the ones, man.

So now, I don't know.

Again, all I know is that since I've been vegan and I'd like to credit the oils with the lack of inflammation in my arthritic toes, and again, I'm not trying to pitch anything to you, but I would like some feedback.

Huh?

Anyone got any

word, any info, any word on the street about okra seeds?

Huh?

What do you know?

Tell me the pros and cons of the pumpkin oil.

Pumpkin seed oil.

What do you got?

Pecan oil, what do you know?

I mean, I started with walnut oil, but now I'm going oil fucking nuts on nut oil.

Yeah, it's happening.

Okay, so Lynn Margulies,

the documentary she appears in, Thank You Very Much, about Andy Kaufman, her late boyfriend.

She was with him the last couple of years of his life, is now playing in theaters and is available to watch on digital on-demand platforms.

You can go to thank youverymuch.draftousefilms.com for more details.

And this is me talking to Lynn Margulies.

So you live in New Yorkville?

No, I live up on the Oregon coast.

Oh, really?

I'm from here.

Yeah.

When did you run away to Oregon?

That was my

most recent running away.

I grew up in San Fernando.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So you had to get away pretty.

I got away early and then came back, then went away, then came back.

I lived in San Francisco for 15 years.

Really?

Yeah.

Where at?

First, I started in Noe Valley.

Yeah.

You know Noe Valley?

Yeah, I lived there for a couple years.

I lived on 24th Street above the Wells Fargo.

Okay, yeah.

What years were that?

That was, well, that was when Andy was alive.

It was.

So that was 80.

I went up in 81, 82, 83.

Yeah.

But so what's it, because like, how do you, when you watch this documentary, you think it does the job?

It does.

Because you know what?

Including me, because I'm a filmmaker,

everyone who made something about Andy, just, it was his performances.

Yeah.

Like one performance after another.

And, but what Alex wanted to do, when I met him, I could just tell, he wanted to figure out what was underneath it all.

Yeah, I think this is the first time that's happened.

It's the first time.

And I think because, you know, I've talked to Bob.

I know, I re-listened to that.

It's crazy.

Oh, what a storyteller, eh?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, but the problem is, is like, I think one of the issues with Andy, especially with Zamuda as the guy in charge of the myth and the legacy.

And me.

Yes.

But he immortalized.

No, but I mean, but he, like, was public-facing all the time.

I mean, he was doing that on purpose.

I mean, there were points where it was,

you know, your

place in this doc, and in terms of the legacy, was the human thing.

Right.

And Zamuda, you know, for I think most of his life, you know, after Andy died, was...

concerned with continuing the myth.

And at the end, there's a little suggestion of that.

But, you know, when you talk to Zamuda, it's tall tales

with cryptic endings, you know, that suggests something.

And I know, though he won't cop to it that you know he was doing Clifton after long after Andy died and everyone knew that but Bob was like no no and you know whatever you know well yeah there's Clifton and there's Clifton yeah and and Clifton's you know he's a he's he can be he can be

inhabited by whoever wants to inhabit Clifton and I was gonna say when someone does Clifton they change like

Jim Carrey yeah oh yeah that was great

I was on the film the whole time yeah And yeah, I mean, you just, you become Clifton and you do stuff you would never do.

Right.

Well, yeah, because you have freedom.

You have total freedom.

Yeah.

Oh, boy.

But I thought this doc, in terms of answering certain questions and making and suggesting certain things that were kind of investigative, you know, on behalf of Alex, the director, in terms of making those connections,

you know, around

the death of Andy's grandfather and then the impact of the Maharishi.

I mean, that's the whole core of the thing on some level.

But I mean, whatever Andy did with it, he did with it.

But I guess in terms of you, there seems to be a responsibility on behalf of the people that love the guy to

sort of make sure the legacy stays alive.

Well, he actually made us promise, me and Bob both.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

I mean, he actually did.

Bob says

that Andy made him promise to keep Clifton alive, and that's true.

And what Andy made me promise, because we were working on I'm From Hollywood at the time, which is that documentary.

Yeah.

He made me promise to finish it, and then he said I had to promise him that I would get his work out into the world.

But this is before he was sick.

This is when he was sick.

Okay.

Yeah.

So the I'm From Hollywood, that's the Fred Blassey one?

No, that time, that's my breakfast with Blassey.

I'm From Hollywood is about his wrestling in Memphis.

Oh, oh, right, right.

Or you should see it.

It's funny.

I think I have seen it.

It's funny.

Yeah, I mean, I found him funnier.

As I get older, I find him more funny.

Yeah.

You know, I don't know because I'm kind of a straight stand-up.

When you're in the midst of it, you're like, well, there's the Kaufman school, and then there's the other school.

And he's singular.

So anybody who is playing around in that area,

you're always going to get like, oh, he's doing an Andy Kaufman thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And there are guys who do the Andy Kaufman thing.

Now, yeah.

Well, there were.

I mean, I knew guys that were so influenced by him, like Dave Cross early on, and there were other cats that were doing the kind of, is this real?

Is this

not real?

real but when you uh and I'm glad that Lori Anderson was in there because I talked to her and she told me that about her relationship with Andy and I didn't think it was a known thing but I guess she wasn't really but that song they played is that an existing song which song is that she behind Andy that she does it one of her uh Lori Anderson it's it's an oh yeah and she mentions Andy yeah that's an existing song yeah I heard that back in the 90s oh so that was so it was always kind of there it was such an odd connection yeah Him connected to, you know, and it makes perfect sense.

It's before either of them were famous.

Well, yeah, but it would have been,

he knew that he was doing something that transcended stand-up early on.

That it was more of a,

I don't know how he would have framed it.

He didn't think that way.

Right.

But he was in comedy clubs.

He was, because that's the only place he could do that stuff.

Yeah.

Where else would he do it out on the streets, which he did.

Right.

Or in performance art spaces.

Right.

Down the Lower East Side.

Right.

So how old were you when you met him?

Oh, God, I was a baby.

I was 27 when he died.

And we were just together for two years.

Right.

I met him in 82, right after he got the neck brace.

Breakfast with Blassey was...

Breakfast with Blassey was shot just after the David Letterman show where he got slapped.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

And I was in Breakfast with Blassey.

I'm the one that talked to you.

Right, you talked to him, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And you were working on that set or what was it?

My brother is Johnny Legend who directed it.

Okay.

And I was living up in the mountains of Northern California.

I didn't know who Andy was.

I didn't have a TV.

Really?

Nothing.

Well, what was that about?

Living up there?

Yeah.

I'm just not an L.A.

girl, you know?

I'm not an L.A.

girl.

But the decision to not have a TV and to, you know.

I just didn't care.

I just didn't care.

How about now?

I watch TV now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We like to binge-watch shows.

But

left to my own devices, I wouldn't watch TV TV that much.

Yeah, yeah, no, I get it.

And so you're on this set and you're just taking with this guy?

Well, no, what happened is they put us, they put us in an empty room.

Yeah.

And so we, myself, Linda LaTreque, who was the co-producer, her sister, and Andy's assistant, Linda, they just put us behind them at the table behind them.

And they said, just eat.

Just eat.

Right, right, background.

And then I got sucked in.

They sucked me in, you know, to the scene.

And I didn't know who Andy was.

I knew Fred.

I've known Fred since I was six.

How come?

Because my brother used to take me to the Olympic auditorium with him when I was six years old.

To watch the wrestling?

Yeah.

So Fred, Freddie, I'd known almost all my life.

But who's that?

I don't know who Andy Kaufman is.

What is it about?

You know, it's interesting because

the wrestling thing

that I think the documentary is very good because

it allows you to assess the full arc

what he was up to

in all its forms.

But then ultimately, the wrestling,

especially since

what the country's become, was really

a fairly astute and intuitive

reaction or trying to understand

the culture we live in.

You know, everyone wants to assign stuff like that to Andy.

He just loved wrestling.

I mean, period.

He just loved wrestling.

He loved the bad guy, good guy stuff.

Sure.

Right.

But for him

to kind of land there as

almost his last major work,

right?

It has, you know,

you can't remove him from the culture, right?

No, you can't, but he wasn't thinking of that.

I know.

He just.

When at the end of his career, when no one would hire him anymore because of all of his shenanigans, he said, well, maybe I'll just be a wrestling manager now.

I mean,

he just loved wrestling.

Yeah.

He loved.

He loved.

I mean, and if you think about it, everything he did was wrestling his entire career.

It was like, you're one thing, then you're another.

You're a good guy, then you're a bad guy.

Yeah.

You know?

Throw everyone for a loop.

And everything, if you look at all of his stuff he did, it's all wrestling.

Yeah, and I also like the idea of any reaction.

Any reaction was good.

Good reaction.

Oh, he loved it.

The madder people got at him, the happier he was.

Well, that's a very unique person.

I know.

To not care.

To not care, but on another level, to

embrace any kind of attention.

Yeah.

I mean, there's a not caring to it, but when people are mad at you,

it's almost a more focused and more intense attention than if they like you.

Yeah, it's true.

They are really focused on you.

Totally.

Yeah.

And he just soaked it up.

He loved it.

Yeah, we have a president like that now.

Oh, God.

I don't know what you do with people like that when they're evil intended, when they want any kind of attention.

i know have you seen back the first time trump was in office someone put out a picture of him unzipping himself and andy was stepping out oh god that's uh that's pretty smart yeah i wish that was that was the first time

isn't that so what does andy represent that's interesting you know what what what andy represents to people but your experience with him you know like after you you met him i mean do you get it do you feel like there's this idea of in the doc that's kind of kicked around a bit, the real Andy?

Yeah.

Do you feel like you saw that?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Andy, when he wasn't doing stuff, which he was a lot, you know, like just at home.

He was doing stuff at home, at the restaurant?

No, not at the restaurant, but out in public, on the streets, he would suddenly start doing stuff.

He'd start strangling me, you know,

stuff like that.

But at home, he was just a quiet, just normal, intelligent, quiet person.

Funny?

Not really.

No.

I mean he never told jokes or anything.

Yeah.

He was not funny.

He wasn't

quick-witted or anything.

No, he was just really intelligent.

Highly intelligent.

Yeah.

But yeah.

And so that's kind of interesting.

So

the entire thing had to be a,

it always had to be a show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And when you guys started doing, so I guess as a 27-year-old, you're just excited to be 25.

25.

And he was how old?

He was, I think, eight years older than me.

Yeah.

Seven years older than me.

So it was probably just kind of weird fun?

Yeah, and see, that's the thing is I was very like him.

I didn't, I could give a shit about famous people.

Yeah.

I didn't care.

Yeah.

It's just he and I were really alike.

And I was just floating through life.

I had no ambitions.

I didn't want to be an actress.

I didn't want to be this.

I didn't want to be that.

Did you grow up in show business?

No, but my brother was Johnny Legend.

My dad was a doctor.

My mom was a nurse.

Out in the valley?

Out in the valley in San Fernando.

Yeah.

Orange Grove Avenue.

Yeah.

And so I was just floating along.

I wasn't, and so it was perfect.

But what was like, so when were you born?

57.

So you were here, like, I mean, Hollywood in the 70s was crazy.

I guess so.

But I mean,

like when you were like

going out, did it, what was the vibe?

So you met Andy in the 80s, right?

I met him in 82, yeah.

Yeah.

In the 70s, yeah, we used to go to Hollywood Boulevard and hang out and stuff.

Pretty crazy.

Yeah.

Dirty and weird.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And crowded.

Yeah.

I mean, Hollywood Boulevard was nuts on the weekends.

Yeah.

So when you guys, what was Andy doing when you met him, performance-wise?

He was still doing taxi.

Oh, he was?

Yep.

He was still on taxi.

But it was tense.

Or wasn't it?

That was always tense.

Yeah, I remember one time we were sitting in his, he was, we were meditating in his dressing room and they were out there rehearsing.

And

what's his name?

DeVito?

No, no, no, no, no, don't.

The guy who's in my film, you have to, I'm getting old and I lose things.

Oh, yeah.

I have a lacuna brain now.

The boxer.

Oh, Danza.

Yeah, he was pounding on the door.

Yeah.

Andy, get your ass out here.

Get it.

And I open my eyes, and Andy's just sitting there with his little smile on his face.

What a difficult thing for everybody.

Oh, I know.

They all hate.

I mean,

Jenny didn't hate him, but

Harry Lou.

When I watched

the doc, I realized, like, Judd's got to hate this guy.

Judd hated him.

This guy still hated him.

Yeah.

And he's like 90-something.

Yeah.

I worked with him.

Judd hated him.

I know.

I watched your show.

Yeah.

I saw it.

Oh, good.

Yeah.

And,

but, yeah, it's a lot to deal with.

And Andy just didn't.

He didn't care.

But do you think that on some level, was he,

did he lack empathy?

Yes.

Yeah.

He did.

Except for certain things, like I know there was like

people he would visit in the hospital.

Oh, yeah.

He would go visit

people in the hospital every now and again.

Random people.

Someone he knew.

No.

People he knew.

Yeah.

Like some woman was in the hospital and he'd go visit her when he was in town.

Yeah.

But

no, he really didn't.

He was in his own.

It was Andy's world.

It was his world.

Well, it's fortunate he was talented.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, who knows what would have happened to him if he wasn't.

Well, when you were with him, did you guys, because there's a lot of stuff

he talks about that I didn't know, you know, tracking his life,

you know, this idea that hadn't he found TM,

he would have been a drug addict.

Yeah, do you think that's true?

He said it was.

Yeah.

I mean, he said it over and over again that he was living in a park and he was doing drugs and he was drinking.

And

TM, he said TM saved him.

That footage of him asking the Maharishi that question, who the hell had that?

That was how do you think that was the TM, the TM archives.

Oh, they did.

They actually went to, you know, Lauren.

Lauren got it all done.

That is crazy.

Lauren Belfer.

I know.

I know.

It's a crazy moment where, you know, his question is so specific.

And at that time,

he knew that somehow or another, comedy was the answer for him.

Yeah.

And, you know, the question about the nature of comedy and that Maharishi answered it with this idea of, I can't remember exactly what he said, something about silence, right?

Something about silence, yeah.

It all comes down to silence.

And then you have this realization.

It's the same with David Lynch in a way, that they create a zone.

of experience that is not really easily or or or able to be processed

by

an audience.

By normal humans.

Yeah.

And you're suspended in it.

Yeah, yeah.

I love that.

Well, like that, that kind of blew my mind.

They create, it's not a meditative state, but it is an altered perception.

Yes.

And it's happening in the moment.

Yes.

And that's kind of crazy.

I know.

Andy, at the end of his life, they had cards printed up.

He was going to do a tour called On Creating Reality.

Huh.

Do you know what that was about?

I think he was going to to fill it with a lot of mumbo-jumbo.

Oh, yeah.

You know, but still,

because all of us, everyone out in the world, are all trying to put a name to what he did and put a reason to what he did and like figure out what he did.

And he just laughed at that because he just did what he did because it was fun.

Right.

So he was going to do this tour called On Creating Reality.

Well, it's the interesting thing about a person who

I've only met a few that they get this idea in their head and

no matter whether whether it makes sense or not you know there's something about the

you know conjuring it that the the will to commit to it is is crazy yeah because you know why and then the will to see it through yeah

like why why and then they but but and everyone wants to figure out why well that's like but i guess that's the nature of a real artist right is that you don't answer the question no but a lot of them do yeah that's the thing a lot of them do especially if they do stuff like Andy did.

They can't stand the backlash.

They have to let on.

Doesn't everyone

finally explain what they're doing or why they're not going to be able to do it?

I guess so.

But

how are you even going to explain from the beginning how you're going to explain

the Mighty Mouse thing?

How are you going to explain that?

You can't.

No, you can't.

You're just doing it.

Right.

You can explain foreign guys.

And why is it funny?

Well, yeah.

Well, that's, well, I think that's the real genius part is that it is still a commitment to comedy.

Right.

And you still get to a point where you're like, holy shit, you're laughing because it's crazy.

He thought of himself more as vaudeville.

Yeah, I could see that.

Yeah.

Not comedy.

He never thought of himself having to do with comedy.

It was vaudeville.

So you're with him when he gets fired or when taxi ends?

Yeah, yeah.

Did he...

He must have seen it coming or no, I guess not.

It had nothing to do with him that the show was stopped.

Yeah, he was relieved.

He really hated doing taxi.

Because he was stuck.

He felt like he was sold out, sold out foreign man and, you know, made it commercial.

But on the other hand, it made him money and it made him able to do all the other things he did because he was famous.

Right.

So he could do all these things and be on shows and, you know, do stuff in the streets and stuff because he was famous because of taxi.

And this is before the Jerry's deli, or after, it's after he worked at Jerry's, right?

Jerry's was during taxi.

Yeah, you weren't with him, though.

No.

No, he wasn't doing that then.

I kind of remember that being a thing.

Like, you know, coming out here, I was in New York, and

there's this guy working at Coffin's working at Jerry's, and I'm like, that's crazy.

I know.

Yeah.

I know.

Oh.

And so what happens after taxi ends with you guys?

That's when it started being, well, he was still on Letterman.

But he.

Letterman, I think, liked him.

Letterman loved him.

Letterman loved Andy.

At the time, I think Andy had been the guest more times than anyone else.

Was that the period where he brought the adopted

son?

Yes, and I was with them.

Yeah, yeah.

In fact, we met them at Times Square.

We went to Times Square.

They were just guys on the street?

They were at an arcade playing games.

And Andy just started talking to them.

I mean, yeah, and said, hey, you want to be on Lettermov with me?

And they didn't really know him, or one of them did.

They might have known who he was.

So he literally found those guys in Times Square and then walked up to the studio with them.

Not that day.

Not that day.

No, he got, you know, he got their phone numbers and stuff and then got them together to go on Letterman and say they were his adopted sons.

It's a crazy moment where Letterman's just stuck with them out in the studio.

I know.

And trying to have a guest conversation.

I know, I know.

And you were backstage for that?

Yeah, yeah.

And then like

the now, the Elvis bit must have been planned, right?

Was that that show?

Yeah, where one of the kids says, like, you did Elvis or something.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, because, and then he chose to come out with the bad wig and the jacket that's not Elvis.

Do it badly.

And just do Elvis in that jacket.

Right.

Do it badly.

Yeah, that was like, he told one of the kids to say that.

Yeah.

And at what point, I mean,

I just, I'm trying to figure out what public perception was of him at that time.

It was pretty bad.

Because he'd been thrown out of SNL.

And he'd done all the wrestling.

That was already done, the wrestling.

It was all done.

Yeah.

He'd done all the wrestling women.

He was still wrestling in Memphis.

No one knew he was doing the wrestling in Memphis because if you think about it, cable wasn't big at that time.

And wrestling's all over the place.

Now, but not back then.

No one knew.

No one knew he was going to Memphis and doing all the wrestling.

Guys?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he's just being a wrestler.

Yeah.

And that's where he pissed off.

What's his name?

Lawler?

Lawler.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That wasn't about the woman.

That was about him calling out, being a heel and calling Lawler out.

Right, but after the neck brace thing, after the

he kept going back because he wanted to get revenge.

And that's what no one knew about.

That's what's in I'm from Hollywood is him going back to get revenge on Lauer.

And he went over and over and over and over again back to Memphis.

That was the

when he hurt his neck, that's when Lauer dropped him.

Yeah, that was in April 5th of 1982.

Did he really hurt his neck?

Sort of.

Not as bad.

You know, he didn't need to keep wearing that neck brace until it was like filthy and falling apart.

But he was committed to the heat.

He was committed to it.

Yeah.

And this was his career.

Was he making money?

No.

No.

He never cashed it.

They did pay him, but he never cashed a single check.

From the wrestling.

Yeah.

He just went.

So that's what was going on all through 83, basically,

was him going to Memphis and wrestling.

Uh-huh.

So what do you make of it?

What do I make of it?

Well, I mean, because like, you know, I know that,

you know, you can say that he was just having a good time, but I don't think he was.

He was.

Oh, he absolutely was.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

He wouldn't have done it.

It was fun.

He was just having fun.

So he had no.

I guess

what's interesting, hard for me to wrap my brain around was that there.

The element that most people

call like self-sabotage.

Yes.

Right.

Is when you fuck your career up.

Right, like he did.

Right.

But you know, and that's usually attributed to people that aren't quite aware of it or have no control over that.

Right.

But it seems to me that out of his, you know, boredom and and anger

You're putting that on him.

Well, no, to taxi.

Oh, taxi.

Yeah, that that the idea would be to blow it up.

And he couldn't seem to do it while he was there, even though he tried in so many ways.

Almost, it seems like he was trying to get fired.

He was defying them.

Well, there was that one time Tony got fired.

Right.

But the character was so popular, they couldn't go.

They couldn't let it go, yeah.

And they just couldn't.

Yeah, they couldn't get rid of him.

He was holding them hostage.

He was, actually.

Yeah, they couldn't get rid of him.

He was the most popular person on the show, I think.

Oh, my God.

The whole thing is like an art piece, but you know,

he's not going to cop to that.

But he wasn't doing it anymore.

No, I know, I know.

But like when you look at it, when you look at it, when we look at it, when we look at it, the implications of it in terms of show business, in terms of all that stuff.

Exactly.

He turns it on its head by creating his own reality.

And then on all the other shows, like on Fridays when he got in the fight with Michael Richards.

Oh, when he goes and gets the coup cards.

Yeah, and he throws the water on him and Letterman where he gets slapped.

Sorry.

And

what's the other one?

He screwed up.

There was another one.

I can't remember.

But anyway, yeah, he was just, and you would think he was doing it on purpose to sabotage his career, but he was just doing wrestling.

Yeah.

Well, I think, like, for me, like, that Carnegie Hall concert is the best thing ever.

Oh, it's amazing, isn't it?

It's the best thing ever.

And even in the dock, they don't let on that that woman may or may not have died.

That was perfect.

They did it so well.

But that in the dock, that is the one thing that they don't reveal.

Right.

Because Zamuda says, yeah, she died.

Yeah.

She really did die.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like,

out of all the things in the dock that they're going to keep a mystery, it's that poor lady on that little riding horse.

Well, you want to stay true to Andy's a bit, right?

Yeah.

But then he let her come back up with, you know, he put on the Indian feathers and came out, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

whoa, whoa, that's right, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, so I guess did the woman really die?

No.

Not on stage.

No.

No, yeah.

It was all good.

Yeah.

So, so, okay, so now he's just doing the wrestling, and you're going, you're not going to Memphis with him?

Oh, yeah, I always went.

You did?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And what was the vibe?

They just hated him?

They hated him.

In fact,

he would stay in his dressing room until everyone was gone, and I would have to go out and make sure Lawler had left, for one thing.

I'd have to see Lawler get in his car and drive away before Andy would come out of his dressing room.

Because he was afraid of him?

Yeah.

Did you get the sense that Lawler would really

beat him up?

No.

No.

No.

He was a pro, right?

Andy was just, you know, know,

doing his thing.

Being dramatic.

Being dramatic.

So what's the arc of it?

How long does that go on for?

It goes on until Andy got cancer at the end of 83.

You know, he kept going back, going back.

In fact,

there's some video when he's coughing, you know, and I'm like, oh my God, you can see him coughing.

Yeah.

And

does he see the doctor down there or he comes to the corner?

No, L.A.

in December.

He comes to 83.

Because the cough had gotten too much?

Yeah, he went in for his cough to see why he was coughing all the time.

So sad.

I know.

And then he got cancer.

And then what he wanted to do is go on Letterman and say he got cancer for Christmas.

Yeah.

And that didn't happen.

I don't know why that didn't happen.

He even got a phone line put in his apartment and had his name on it in the phone book so people could call him.

Really?

Because he was going to go on Letterman and announce his phone number and say he got cancer for Christmas.

And then see what the calls came in?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wonder what that was.

What do you make of that?

You wanted some love?

No, it was just fun.

Oh, come on.

I swear to God, it was just, I mean,

he didn't think these through like everyone else does.

He just thought it would be cool.

I know, but we can read them now.

I know.

Some of them.

I know.

And that seems like...

Seems like it, doesn't it?

That he wanted some sort of caring.

He just thought it would be funny to announce his phone number on David Letterman and then have it actually be a real phone that you could call

with it and then yeah well he had a machine hooked up to it i don't know if he was ever actually going to answer it yeah he got one call that someone actually found his number and called just out of curiosity just out of curiosity yeah but what do you like in in the relationship i i know that in the in the dock it says you know he has a couple of women saying that he was not it's what's also interesting is you know some of the women that have known him his whole life's reaction to the wrestling yeah there was a line that he crossed with a lot of people, including his family.

They hated it.

They did.

Oh, yeah.

They hated it.

They wanted the nice, they wanted nice Andy.

You know, they wanted foreign man.

They were not happy with all the wrestling and all the stuff he was doing.

I like that they found the real foreign man.

Isn't that amazing?

Is that from old footage?

No, that's brand new.

Because some of it is kind of old, obviously, but some of it's new.

Like Steve Martin was new.

Martin's new.

Danny DeVito.

Yep.

Me, of course, and

his friends.

But,

you know, like

is Rolf Williams a news?

Yeah, that's all from Comic Relief Archives.

Oh, it is.

Yeah.

Well, you know, you do have this desire somehow to

interpret and pathologize.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

People do.

I don't.

That's why Andy and I got along so well, because I didn't.

It doesn't matter in the big picture, but in order to critically

sort of assess his legacy, it's fun to

love that people are doing that.

Sure, like

I'm sure there have been books written or essays written or the implications of the wrestling period.

You would hope.

You would hope.

But in terms of his

personal relationships,

there was a couple women saying that he just was not capable of any sort of intimacy.

No, not really.

Even with me.

Yeah.

You know, he wasn't, he would do it like I would go over and make him put his arm around me and I'd lean on him.

He'd go, oh, there, there.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

You know,

yeah.

Like he was, he was pretending.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, because like, you know, as somebody who has my own issues with intimacy, I just, like, trying to track

where that comes from is kind of interesting.

That is interesting.

And I have to assume it's still that injury from the grandfather.

How could he trust anybody?

That, and yeah, and his dad, I think, you know, Bob and I have talked about this.

His dad was, I think he probably had PTSD from World War II and he yelled a lot.

Oh, really?

And I think that's what drove Andy into his room.

And also, I imagine what drove him to, you know, seek the love of the grandfather as much as possible.

Yeah.

Because to have that relationship with your grandfather is a big deal.

Exactly.

And if your dad's running around yelling all the time, so it's chaos.

And I think.

And it's frightening.

And I think that's maybe why he liked wrestling, too, so much, is because the bad guys were an act.

It wasn't real.

Whereas in mid-life, it was real, but in wrestling, it wasn't real.

You could disarm it and live in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the relationship wasn't particularly

intimate in that way where he's able to trust or open his heart that much.

I would think so.

Probably.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what happens after the diagnosis?

How does the life change?

Well, God, it happened so fast.

You know, he was diagnosed in December and he died in May.

And so it was just going to the doctors.

They talked him into doing radiation, which he didn't want to do.

And then

some friend of his told him about the faith healers in the Philippines.

And Andy just went, okay, that sounds good.

And off we went to the Philippines for six weeks to see the faith healers there.

Did you get a sense that

he wanted it to, he believed it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

He believed he was kind of magical thinking, you know?

It's like he never thought cancer would kill him.

He just said, oh, I've got cancer now.

I'll have to get rid of it, basically was his.

So he couldn't really wrap his brain around.

Well, I guess you have to have some magical thinking at the beginning, at least.

Yeah.

I guess you go through those five stages alive, you know.

Really fast.

Yeah.

I don't know what the five stages are, but he never got angry.

Yeah, I think it's denial.

Yeah, well, denial was definitely.

I think it's denial,

depression or anger, and then acceptance at some point.

Yeah, he did accept it towards the end.

He did?

Yeah, although he never would say, I'm dying, but I think he knew he was dying.

And because I saw that footage in the dock where he went to the improv with the Mohawk and stuff.

And it was interesting because even, like, you know, Bud Bud Friedman, who's a pretty tough guy, was pretty choked up.

Oh, Bud loved him.

And he threw a party after that,

after that screening.

And that was the last time I ever saw Andy was at that free because that was like the day or two before we went to the Philippines.

Oh, where the party at the improv?

Yeah, he threw a party for him at the improv imp an impromptu.

He just said, everyone come to the improv.

He really loved him, huh?

Oh, he loved Andy like a son.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He was really broken up.

Yeah, I like that story because

Bud was the first guy that saw him at the original improv.

Yep, yep, yep.

And knew something was totally unique about the guy.

Yeah, I don't know how Bud figured out because Andy wouldn't have told him

what he was going to do.

No, at the very beginning, he wouldn't have told him that he was going to do the whole Foreign Man and all of a sudden stuff.

And Bud let him on stage.

Yeah, I think it must have just been like, you know, he believed it.

And then when it turned into something else, he said, oh, this is something beyond anything

that is out happening now.

And I don't think that Bub was like, this is going to be a huge success or anything, but he knew the guy was touched.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And like that's what that's what Taxi did for him is he got real big.

You know, he was on shows before that, but he wasn't well known.

Yeah.

You know, but then he got on taxi and he was huge.

Yeah, and he's doing, I love that the guy who

who was the inspiration for Farham then, who was apparently, because he was...

Budgie.

Yeah, but because he was, you know, from another country and couldn't integrate socially, of course, that's Andy's only friend

in college.

Oh, yeah, because that's what Andy was like.

Yeah.

So, but you know, what's interesting is when the director, whoever was on the camera, and it's a very modern proposition,

when the director says, are you mad because he stole that from you?

Because that's such a thing with people, like, oh, he took my ass.

He took me.

Right.

And the guy's like, no, no, it's my gift.

Aw, isn't that sweet?

It was my gift.

Yeah.

It was beautiful because it goes against everything that in capitalist culture that, you know, bitter people accuse people of.

Right.

Anyone else would have been suing Andy for stealing his persona.

Sure.

Yeah.

And that guy was like, you know, he's my friend.

Yeah.

So he had a few friends.

Not many.

Yeah.

Craig Sutton from childhood.

Uh-huh.

I mean, Andy was like me.

We're both the same.

We're not comfortable with humans, really.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know?

Who were the guys that hung out towards the end?

Bob?

Just Amuda?

Yeah.

I mean...

The management had had enough of him.

No, George loved him.

Yeah.

George always loved Andy, no matter what.

Yeah, I mean, Andy knew a lot of people, but he didn't hang out with people.

Right.

I mean, he had me.

And I always say the reason...

The only reason that he and I managed to get together, I think, is because Bob was off doing DC Cab.

He wrote DC Cab and he was in it.

And so Bob was gone, and Andy Andy was like left without a friend.

And then he met me.

And I took Bob's place for a while because, you know.

And over the arc of the sickness, which was quick,

did you sense a change in the way he saw his life?

No.

Not really?

No, not at all.

He just took it.

He just accepted.

I mean, yeah, he just accepted it.

I mean, things happen, and that's how it goes, you know?

Yeah.

The only thing he was very disappointed, he was very disappointed in

what's his name from Saturday Night Live, not Lauren Michaels, the other guy, the original guy.

Oh, Eversall.

Eversol, because he felt that he betrayed him.

When they kicked him off, they did the vote.

Yeah.

And Andy and Eversol figured he'd be kicked off as a joke.

But then Andy was supposed to come back.

He was supposed to come back in disguise.

Right.

Ha ha ha.

I snuck back in.

But Eversall didn't let him back on.

So.

So

he was really.

So there was an agreement

in the sense that they were still buddies and then he didn't he kept him off.

It was all supposed to be an act.

He'd get kicked off and then he'd sneak back on and then Eversol betrayed him and he really felt betrayed.

I mean that was the one he was hurt.

And he was also hurt by the meditation movement because they wanted to kick him out because of the wrestling.

Right.

They wouldn't let him come on the courses.

He used to love to go on the courses they have and they wouldn't let him.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, because I know they mentioned that and it just it didn't you know they didn't go too deep into it but he was very active within the TM community

not as much in later years but he would go to the courses and then he signed up for one and they wouldn't let him do it really yeah and he was really hurt by that because TM was his life twice a day twice a day oh god no matter what no matter what and he had a long he had a long meditation and he'd fall asleep and if he fell asleep he'd start over.

So he'd be like meditating for like three, four hours.

Really?

Yes.

So he really got out there.

Yeah, and no matter what, if we were in New York Times Square, we'd go to a movie theater so he could meditate or he'd get a hotel room so he could meditate.

Yeah, I never missed it.

My late girlfriend was like that.

She was locked into that.

And no matter what,

if she were on set, she was like, go do this.

I didn't know she was a meditator.

Lynn?

Yeah, oh, yeah.

It was like very important, you know, and she had her special chair.

And if she was directing, you know, she'd go and

do it.

And I think

it really worked for her.

Yeah.

Like there was something, like, you know, when I'm watching that, because I just got on medicine for anxiety after decades.

I've been on it since 2006.

What are you on?

Paxil.

Oh, this one's like a different one.

Yeah.

But when I'm watching that, like, there's always that part of your brain that wants to make excuses.

I'm like, you know what, dude?

Just lock in, just go to the TM thing.

Let's fucking resolve this thing.

Yeah, but then minutes later, I'm like, I don't know if I'm gonna do that.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, when you have anxiety, it's it's it's a medical condition.

It's like

I don't think all the meditation in the world can get rid of.

It's like meditating to get rid of your heart disease.

Yeah, I guess so.

Okay, well, I like that framing.

I'll take it because I always tend to think like it's a reasonable reaction.

Yeah, no, it's horrible.

It is horrible.

I hate anxiety.

I live it.

I did too, all my life.

And it's gone?

Completely gone as long as I stay on my, and I've, I've, I've tapered off many times thinking, okay, I'm fine now.

Right.

Boom, comes right back.

Really?

Yep.

So I've just accepted it.

You know, I take a pill.

Yeah.

You take a pill and I'm not miserable anymore.

So Andy didn't make you anxious?

Not at all.

I was having fun.

Oh, so

he was like medicine.

He was having fun.

He was like medicine.

Yeah, but I couldn't, I couldn't.

He wanted me to perform with him, but because of my anxiety disorder, I couldn't do anything in public at the time.

Oh, really?

What did he want you to do?

Just, well, first of all, he wanted me, I would say things.

He'd go, you're funny.

You should get up there.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'd, I can't, I can't.

You know,

stand up?

Yeah, he wanted me to just stand up.

And it's like, no, I can't.

Or he'd want me like he originally wanted me to help him write his Chicago show.

And even that, I was too like, me, me, right?

You know, yeah.

So he got Elaine Boozler to come in and do it.

But I was just too too anxiety-ridden.

So were you there when he died?

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

In the hospital?

Yep.

I was holding his foot because his family were up holding his hands.

And so Linda Mitchell and I were at the base of the bed and each holding a foot.

Yeah.

Wow.

And was it peaceful?

It was.

It was.

Were there, you know, last requests?

No.

No, he was just tired at the end.

He was just tired.

You know, he was just sleeping most of the time.

So the discussions about his legacy, those happened after he was diagnosed?

Yes.

Yes.

And what was it exactly?

The promises?

Yeah.

Well, one, like I said, we had started I'm from Hollywood.

Yeah.

And that's about his wrestling in Memphis.

And he won that finish.

He, I mean, because that was his.

That was the height of his career as far as he was concerned.

I mean, that was it, his wrestling.

This is what he was working towards.

Absolutely.

So he made me promise to finish it.

And boy, was that hard.

Why?

Because I had to work on it right after he died.

Oh, my God.

It was so hard.

But I finished it.

And the other thing he made me promise, in front of George Shapiro, he said, George, I want Lynn to get everything I ever did out into the world, you know?

And he said, promise to help her.

And then George kind of conveniently forgot that later when I tried to do it.

How would you try to do it?

Well, after I'm from Hollywood, I came to George and I said, okay, now I'm ready to do the rest of this stuff.

In your mind,

how would you do it?

Oh, just like find everything he ever did and either put it out as a compilation, maybe do a movie of all of his work.

Right.

You know?

Yeah.

And George just kind of said, well, I helped you do I'm from Hollywood.

That's enough.

Oh, really?

That was it.

That was it.

Well, thank God for YouTube.

Well, then what I did was I took every, I used to sell the stuff on DVDs that I just made, that I just

made.

Yeah, I sold them on eBay because Andy asked me to do it.

And so I was putting the stuff out there.

I did two DVDs that I called the Kaufman Archives.

Yeah.

And I just put clips from all his different shows on them.

And personal interview pieces?

Nope, just shows.

And did they sell?

Yeah, I mean, you know, 20 bucks a piece.

Yeah.

You still got some?

I found a couple.

Yeah.

They're so cute because I also, I typed up a thing about all of them and I signed it and I put that inside the DVD case, you know?

Yeah.

It's really sweet.

Oh.

Yeah.

Well, it's

it's interesting that it's taken this long for someone to do a real assessment.

I know.

Because

there hasn't been a documentary, has there really?

No, there have been, like Bob and I did an A ⁇ E biography on him.

Right.

And a couple people have just done

little

private things that they've put out.

But no.

This is the first one, the first documentary that actually delves into who he was and why he did it.

Rather than just present like his performances.

Yeah.

It actually delves into.

Yeah, I was amazed at the connections that the filmmaker made.

It was pretty smart.

It was.

Smart guy.

That's why he spent so much time with me.

Yeah.

He needed to know what you knew because you were there at the height of his life.

And garb.

But if you believe, and Andy believed, that the wrestling was really

the

epitome, the height.

Yeah.

The apex of his career.

So on some level, according to him, that was the most important time.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

You were there.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

But what about the estate?

I mean, how do people just churn out this material?

I mean, like, you know, because usually it's protected, right?

Oh, well, yeah, now it is.

His father wasn't as...

Yeah, see, I went through all these years thinking, well, I promised Andy I would do this, and that's why I was putting stuff out, putting stuff out.

And then his dad died, and his brother took over, and his brother has put the kibosh on everyone doing stuff.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So the family did have the estate, but the father didn't give a shit.

Yeah, his father didn't

see any point.

So now...

And back then it wasn't, no one was really putting stuff out, you know.

Or maybe not necessarily protecting it

or didn't see why anyone would care necessarily.

Exactly.

That's his kind of.

Back when Andy had all of his stuff, after taxi ended, he moved out of his house in the Hollywood Hills.

Yeah.

And he put all his stuff in storage.

And after he died, his dad just called Linda Mitchell, his assistant, and said, get rid of everything.

so Linda called me and I said send it to my mom's garage you know yeah oh really I had her send it all to me yeah because his dad was just like get rid of it you know that's crazy well that's what people do after people die you know like one you know usually there's a sensitivity to it somebody goes through it right and takes what they hold dear, but a lot of it is just sort of like, I don't know.

Well, his dad still had all the stuff in Andy's childhood room at the house.

That was all still there.

That's interesting.

I know.

They just left his room.

We used to go stay in it when we were there.

Really?

Little twin bed.

Really?

Yeah.

They kept it just intact.

Well, it was his room, and he would come back and stay there.

With all the childhood stuff in it?

Yeah, just all his stuff.

Yeah.

That's so wild.

I thought that that was an interesting part of, like, I didn't love the movie, you know, the Jim Carrey movie.

Yeah.

Because, you know, I like Milos's work.

I love Milos.

Yeah, he's great.

And I think Jim Kerry did the best he could.

But

how are you going to do that?

Yeah.

He didn't know Andy.

Yeah, and

even if you study him, how are you going to find

that vulnerability that he has?

I said that to the writers who I'm going to see tomorrow.

We've stayed friends.

That there's nothing cinematic about Andy's life apart from his work.

Right.

Like, I said, I don't know what you're going to write about because he was not cinematic.

Yeah, he went out of his way not to be cinematic.

Yeah.

He kind of became a vacuum.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah, I would call him, I always called him a vessel.

You know, things went in him and came out of him.

Yeah, because there are times, I think, when you see him where he turns it all off.

Yeah.

And there's,

it's a type of vulnerability, but it's almost like a.

An act.

Yeah.

It's an act, but I think he got,

I think that there was a real thrill for him in those moments.

And I'm speculating that

when he was on stage not getting laughs on purpose, it's different than him

actually being himself, you know, like with Letterman for a minute.

And like, I think...

Because it's still part of the act.

It's part of the act, but I think the experience of

whoever's watching him or talking to him, having anticipation, and him having moments of like, I'm actually being me and this is what they're waiting for.

And see, that's the beauty of it.

You never know, even if he's being me,

if it's real.

Like, you know, people will ask me, is he dead?

Is he alive?

Yeah.

And it doesn't matter what I say because you never know what's real.

Right.

Still, even now.

Yeah.

There's a few people that still want to hold on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The one thing in the movie that I thought was kind of smart and well-shot was there's a moment in the movie.

Which movie?

The Man on the Moon.

Man on the Moon.

Where the way Milos shot the Philippines stuff,

where

you sense watching the film that Andy knew this was a performance.

He didn't.

But it's in the movie.

It's in the movie.

There's a lot in the movie that's not correct.

Yeah.

So he didn't.

No, he never.

He never.

He thought he was healed.

I mean, he thought, you know, June LeBeau said, okay, you're healed now.

And Landy said, okay.

I mean, Andy, he was really savvy and smart, but he had this very naive side too, his childlike naivety.

And the magical thinking.

And the magical thinking.

So he just believed it was all working.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, because, I mean, I think Foreman went out of his way to suggest that.

Right.

And even if it wasn't that Andy knew.

The audience.

Rob and I knew.

Right, but it was like it was something Andy would have done.

Exactly.

Exactly.

In fact, I almost think he never said it, but going to the Philippines, I was thinking, I always thought that he thought, well, this is the weirdest thing I can do, get cancer and go to the Philippines.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

But the performative element of it's not unlike wrestling, any sort of crackpot thing.

Yeah.

Wrestling is just the most honest.

Right.

And that must have been why.

That was his major work, is that you're not going to get more honest than wrestling.

You don't get more.

Yeah, even exactly, which is fun.

Funny, isn't it?

It's a funny dichotomy.

Like you're totally honest in wrestling.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because everyone knows the game.

They do now.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think that within that world, you know, the

characters, you know, they're, they're, you know, you, you, they, it's a, it's a hard thing to, to really explain, but it is the most honest entertainment.

Because it's like, that's the bad guy.

Right.

That's the good guy.

But the bad guy might become a good guy.

But, you know, back in the 60s, it was very different.

People believed it.

I mean, 60s wrestling was very different.

But even now, like, people don't care.

They don't care.

It's fake.

They're there for the show.

It's great entertainment.

Yeah, it's the spectacle of it.

Yeah.

So when you think about Andy,

what do you miss the most?

What do I miss the most about Andy?

You know, really just hanging out and having fun?

Yeah.

Because I'm still that way.

Yeah.

I still just want to hang out and have fun.

Yeah.

Go to Disneyland.

Yeah.

I mean, I love just.

Did he go to Disneyland?

We never went to Disneyland together, but he loved going to amusement parks.

He did?

Oh, God.

There was an amusement park.

We went.

Which part of it?

He would love to get on a ride, and then as the ride was coming to a halt, he'd be crying.

Like, that was so scary,

you know?

In front of everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He loved being a kid.

He loved being a little kid.

He just wanted to be a little kid.

And he loved fucking with people.

And yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Well, I love the movie and it was great to talk to you.

Oh, I'm so glad you loved it.

I love it too.

Oh, good.

I'm glad to talk to you too.

Yeah, I'm glad you're happy with the film.

Me too.

There you go.

Thank you very much is now in theaters and available on digital platforms.

Go to thank youverymuch.draftousefilms.com for more info.

Hang Hang out for a minute.

Hey, folks, for more about Andy Kaufman, we put together a WTF collection for Fulmer and listeners that's full of Andy stories from the people who knew him.

Bob Zamuda, Mary Lou Henner, Carol Kane, Bud Friedman, Danny DeVito, and more.

Andy would be like sitting in his dressing room eating sushi during the day.

Yeah.

And you could go in and talk to him and hang out with him without

having to worry about becoming part of his art project.

Right.

Which most of the time you were.

There were a couple of times that I was when we first met and when I'd be in the hallway hanging out and he's there and he'd come out of his dressing room and all of a sudden some woman would come in with a package like delivering.

You know, like UPS person or

postal worker.

Right.

Yeah.

And he would start on her.

And you go, what are you doing?

Taking a job away from a man.

You know, you should be in the kitchen.

You should be.

And then she gets pissed off at him.

And then we would all come out.

I'd be out in the dressing in the hallway.

I could be going out.

What's going on out here?

And they would be rolling up their sleeves and wrestling.

And they would get on the ground and they would wrestle.

Now, here's the thing about that.

Yeah.

I didn't think about it until many years later.

I bought it.

And everybody else bought it.

But I suspect that that woman was on the payroll.

Okay?

Yeah.

That's how fucking crazy Andy was.

Yeah, of course.

She came in dressed in a uniform

to put on a show.

Right.

Okay, well,

maybe I'm a little slow.

He did the thing really well, and we all bought it.

Like, what are you doing?

A little slow took years.

Took years.

Yeah, a little slow.

That's the latest bonus episode available to Fulmarin subscribers.

To sign up for the Fulmarin and get bonus episodes twice a week, week, go to the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus.

And a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Boomer lifts, monkey and lafonte, cat angels everywhere, screwed up at the end.