Episode 1675 - Spike Lee

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All right, let's do this.

How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies?

What the fuck, sticks?

What's happening?

I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast.

Welcome to it.

How's it going out there?

It's so fucking hot here.

So fucking hot.

I'm not complaining.

I'm just telling you, I'm stating a fact.

It's fucking hot.

I'm one of these people, though.

I don't really mind the heat.

I don't mind it.

I prefer it dry.

I'll take it dry as opposed to mushy and wet and sticky.

I'll take it dry.

It's about 100, 101, something like that.

But I don't know, man.

There's something about this type of heat that it's so intense that it relaxes me i think that's another word for dehydrated uh i feel woozy i feel like like uh kind of like i'm just sludging along but i guess what it is is that it makes me feel kind of buzzed it's it's nice sometimes to when you're sober like i am to kind of feel like you're almost going to pass out for a few minutes.

That's what you're looking for.

That nice little sweet spot of not quite passed out.

And you spend a little time on the porch or taking a walk or

even just

going down the street in heat like this.

It's like, whoa,

man, I'm about to go down.

That ain't bad.

It's too hot.

Maybe that's what I'm trying to say.

So today on the show, I talked to Spike Lee.

Look, he's done a lot of big, amazing movies, Do the Right Thing,

Bamboozled,

Malcolm X, Jungle Fever,

She's Gotta Have It.

I'm just naming them off the top of my head right now.

Spike has made a lot of movies.

And his latest movie with Denzel Washington is highest to lowest, and it's going to be on Apple TV Plus starting tomorrow.

25th Hour was another one.

That was a good one.

There's a lot of movies.

Crooklyn is actually one of my favorite spikely movies, but Spike will be here.

He's on this show today.

Couple of things, big things to announce today.

I told you about the new book we're working on with writer and illustrator Box Brown.

It's called WTF is a Podcast, a graphic novel history of the show published by Z2.

Starting today, you can pre-order for the book on Kickstarter.

The book is already funded, but we're using Kickstarter so you can get more than just the book.

You can order just the book or limited edition versions of the book, but there are also tiers for you to get signed merchandise from me and Box Brown or get yourself drawn into the book or get a signed wing guard from my microphone, huh?

And one person can get their own episode of WTF.

We'll record a private episode with you and edit it like...

every other WTF episode and you'll have something that no one else has.

Go to z2comics.com slash WTF.

That's Z and the number 2comics.com slash WTF.

Also, the documentary about me, Are We Good, will be in theaters Friday, October 3rd in New York and Los Angeles with nationwide screening Sunday, October 5th and Wednesday, October 8th.

Get tickets now at arewegoodmarin.com.

And you can watch the trailer on Rolling Stone's website.

What do you think of that, huh?

And also,

also,

I'll be at Largo with the band next Wednesday, September 10th.

You can go to wtfpod.com/slash tour

for tickets.

Sorry, that was a lot of business.

A lot of business.

I think my Who Wants to Be a Millionaire is going to be on.

I don't know when.

Maybe, I don't know.

Maybe tonight.

I should know, but I don't.

I just remembered that.

But

it's me and Sarah Silverman.

And I guess I can't tell you anything else.

I can't tell you anything else.

But

no, I can't say anything.

Look, you guys uh

i'm becoming an older fella

and well this is kind of uh

twofold i guess what i've gone through what i've put myself through over the last few weeks it seems to me that when i have a lot of good things going on and that my life from all appearances is pretty good

i will find something to focus on that will make it bad for me.

That I can acknowledge all the good things.

And, you know, I would say 45% of me is like,

you know, feeling pretty grounded in that.

But then there's about 55% that's sort of like, I don't know, man,

something's fucked up.

And the last few weeks, it's been,

I decided I had cancer.

And it wasn't based on much.

I don't want to go into specifics because I don't want to open the floodgates to people emailing me about

what I should have done, what it might be.

Like, I don't want them to disregard the story

and get specific with me and share their stories about something like mine, and yet they still had cancer.

So I want to enforce some denial here that I can maintain by holding back a little bit of information.

But I thought I had cancer.

I was pretty focused on this one thing and

I kind of rolled it around in my mind for a bit and hyper-focused on it and then decided I'll go to the doc.

And I go to the doctor.

I go to the doctor I usually go to the same practice, but I saw a different doctor.

And this guy, look, seemed a little young to me.

That's already an old guy thing, but I was like, I don't know this guy.

Where's my guy?

Okay, I got to get in there.

I got to get in there today because I'm spiraling.

I'm sure I'm dying.

He checks me out pretty thoroughly for the thing.

And he says, I'm not concerned about this.

I'm like, okay, does that mean I'm good?

He goes, well, I'm not concerned.

Well, what does that mean?

Well, come back in three months.

We'll check it out then.

I'm like, so, but it looks all right, right?

I'm not concerned about it.

Like, I think this might be kind of an issue with modern medicine.

Well, I don't know, with medicine in general, maybe it's not.

Maybe there are specific types of doctors that can only say, I'm 90%,

I'm pretty damn sure, I'm very confident, I'm not concerned, as opposed to no.

Because I guess there's a barrage of tests that one needs to go through if you want to make doubly sure.

So they're basically saying, like, I don't think you need the tests.

And God knows I would make money if you got the tests.

So maybe you should believe me.

Fine.

So I get that done, but I'm still obsessing about it.

And I wait about a week or so.

And I can't, I'm looking at it.

I think it's growing.

I think it's, you know, changing this, changing colors, changing shape, whatever.

So I call another guy.

who I know, another doc, the correct kind of doc for this kind of thing, who I've seen before.

And I I go into him and he gets it under the microscope.

He thoroughly checks it out.

I ask him questions.

He goes, I think you're fine.

I think you're fine.

I'm like, fine.

Okay.

Well, that's two.

And then I go home for another two weeks and I'm like, oh, fuck.

It's like totally cancer.

And then I go back to the original place to see my original doctor.

And this is after I texted the second doctor a few times.

Like, I'm not sure, dude.

I'm looking at this thing.

It still doesn't look right.

He's like, I've been doing this 20 years and I am beyond extremely confident, which is better than I'm not concerned.

Beyond extremely confident that it's not a problem, that's pretty good.

That's about as good as you're going to get from a doctor without testing.

But that didn't stop me.

I went back to the first place.

I saw the other, the doc that I usually see.

He looked at it.

He said, look,

I think it's fine.

90% sure.

And, you know, you can get further tests, but that's going to be intrusive and I believe unnecessary, but I'll do them.

But I think you should just come back in two months and we'll see what happens.

I'm like, two months.

He's like, but it doesn't look like cancer.

He's like, he goes, two months.

Two months is not long for this type of thing.

And we'll just do that.

And I was waiting to see that doctor.

And this is the old guy part, where

I said, what was the name of that guy I came to, you saw here before?

And he told me the guy's name.

I'm like, how old is that guy?

Like, how old do you think he is?

And the guy says, probably his mid-30s.

I'm like, so you've been doing it a while.

He goes, I don't know.

But it's such an old guy thing to be like, wait, I don't want to see the young doctor.

Where's the guy?

Where's the guy I usually see?

He's not old, but he's older than you.

I don't want the kid.

I don't want to see the kid send in the grown-up doctor.

I was not proud of that.

I was not proud.

that

I thought that way, but I don't think it's that unusual.

Now the big question is, can I sit with it for two months and not go see a fourth doctor?

I don't know.

Only time will tell.

I guess, as Kit pointed out, there is something about me going into these spirals, whatever they're about, whether they're about cats or something that needs to be done in the house and there's an urgency to it.

Like when I freak out, I'm like, we got to get this done now.

Whatever it is, even if it's not medical, even if it's just, you know, I panic about trees in my yard, it doesn't matter.

But whatever it is, there's an urgency attached to it that is bad.

And it makes me think that maybe the medicine I'm on is working, maybe it's not, and maybe I just have these neural pathways in my head that

just drive me this way.

And the thing was, even after the third doctor, you know, kind of confirming what the other two said, that they didn't believe it was something to be concerned about,

there was a bit of disappointment.

Like they're like, it's almost like, you know, just let's do a fucking biopsy or whatever needs to be done.

And then when that's confirmed, then I can just sit there and wonder why I've got this hole in my body.

And what did I do?

That was stupid.

Like there's, my brain is just wired to be panicky, to look for the worst.

And then when the worst doesn't happen, to question that, and then maybe to take more steps that make it worse in a different way.

So I never get out of that.

And I don't know why I'm sharing this with you.

Maybe it's helpful.

I don't know, but I just can't give myself a break, and I better learn to because I'm going to have a bit of time here.

And I like to enjoy that time.

Is that possible?

I got a buddy who's going through his own health issues.

This is just a stage of life I'm entering.

But isn't there a way?

Should I just go out and buy some stuff?

Give some more money to charity?

That's about the best thing I could do to make me feel

like I'm doing something.

But yeah,

I'm okay right now.

All right.

I think I should tell you that after talking to Jackson Galaxy, again, this is another example because I'm having this trouble with Charlie beating up Buster.

I've had them separated for like two and a half weeks because Jackson told me to do that.

But I'm pestering Jackson.

I'm like, I'm not optimistic about this.

What do we do next?

And Jackson Galaxy came to my house and hung out with me and the cats for like two hours and told me, like, look, I have not seen a cat like Charlie.

I have not seen a cat Charlie's age that is this fucking nuts.

And I'm like, okay, of course I get that cat.

Or of course I made that cat.

I don't know what.

And I'm like, what do we do?

And then he's like lays out this whole regimen where I've got to play with him like three times a day in intervals so I can peter him out.

I've got to reward him after the play.

Maybe I add a feeding before bed.

So that kind of lights up.

I've got to figure out a pattern of doing this.

So he's distracted enough with the pattern I've created that maybe he'll lay off Buster.

Meanwhile, Buster's on Busporin, which is the same thing I'm on.

And

I don't know.

I hope it works for both of us.

I think it's working for me.

Sometimes I don't know if it's working for Buster.

Apparently, it's going to give him confidence and make him super cat.

But the diagnosis is that if Buster's going to act like prey,

then Charlie's going to treat him that way.

So that's now that I'm off the cancer, and I can fully focus back on, you know, the tension in my house.

I don't know, man.

I got to make some choices here because I'm going to have some time.

Some time.

I'm going to try to focus on making a movie, but whatever.

So look, Spike Lee is here, and his new movie, Highest to Lowest, premieres on Apple TV Plus.

tomorrow, September 5th.

It's based on an Akira Kurasaw movie, which I watched, which is also great.

He's obviously done all the movies.

He's one of America's great film directors.

I was happy he came by.

This is me talking to Spike Lee.

Yeah, this is exciting for me.

How do you feel about Los Angeles when you come here generally?

Weather's nice.

That's it.

That's the end of it.

I don't know.

I have a lot of friends here.

I was just missing you.

Yeah.

You do all right out here?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Get a lot of love, a lot of love in L.A.

Yeah, I went to the screening last night

at the Academy.

Yeah, yeah, very moving speech you gave at the beginning.

I said, let's go.

Why talk?

We're getting ready to see the movie.

Just let's go.

That's right.

Have you talked about it?

Oh, I've been doing a lot.

A lot of press?

A lot of press.

Do you set it up generally?

Do you go up there?

I mean, interviews, not just like

speaking before screenings.

Yeah, because I went, you know, I kind of jumped back in.

I don't think I'd watch a Curaçao movie in a long time.

No, you've been missing out.

Well, I've seen them, you know, when I was younger, studying them.

You have not revisited them, huh?

Well, I haven't seen this one.

And it's a later one, right?

1963.

Yeah.

And when you're doing a movie like this, what's the kernel of it?

Why out of everything you know and have seen, do you decide to do that?

Well,

thank you.

You know, I don't think we've met before.

Thank you for having me on your show.

Sure.

Denzel, this script has gone around for a lot of years, many different writers, many producers, stuff like that, and

it ended up in Denzel's hands.

Oh, really?

And he called me up and said, I'm sending you the script.

Yeah.

And let me know if you want to do it.

So

when I hung up the phone, I knew I was doing it already.

Yeah, because of Denzel.

Because of Denzel.

Yeah.

You know, his magnificence.

Yeah.

And also, the relationship we've had with the four films.

Yeah.

Mo Beta Blues.

Yeah.

He got game.

No, no, excuse me.

Moina Blues.

Malcolm X.

He got game.

And I even know

that Inside Man, the last we did together, was 18, 19 years ago.

Isn't that crazy?

Time waits for no one.

That's for sure.

I usually notice,

I don't feel like time flies by, but I do know all of a sudden you're old.

For me,

it's flying by.

Is it?

Flying by, flying by.

But

did you have a love for Cura Sawa to begin with?

Oh, yes.

I went to NYU graduate film school, and Ang Lee was my classmate, the great city top, Ernest Dickinson.

Yeah.

Jim John was ahead of us two years.

So it was at NYU Graduate Film School, I can introduce the World Cinema.

And

the basis of my first one, She's a Have It comes from Ross Sharmone.

Right.

So I got to meet the great Kurosawa, Akira Kurosawa.

So

he's

one of the greatest directors ever.

So

it did not take me

a millisecond

to say this, that this is something Danzana should do.

But here's our approach.

We took the approach of great jazz musicians who take an American standard.

Sure.

You know, we were cold-trained.

Yeah.

you know, Julian.

No, disrespect to Miss Julian.

Sure.

Or Roger Edmanstein.

But, you know, we,

you know, what Miles did with my funny Valentine, we'd go on and on.

Great jazz musicians who

flipped standards.

And

that was our approach.

We were jazz musicians in front of behind the camera.

So that was the thought that, you know, here's a story.

But that way it's not going to be a remake.

It's going to be a reinterpretation.

Right.

But there's the

story's solid.

So, you know, you've got this.

Yeah, but but the story, excuse me, the story was by Ed McBain.

Yeah.

Who wrote it first, then Curacao adapted it.

Okay.

It was called King's Ransom, Ed McBain.

Was it a movie or a novel?

It was a novel.

What Curacao adapted.

What was interesting in that,

you know, you and Denzel...

Dynamic duo.

Yes.

That you, you know, you're of an age,

right?

So.

You're saying we're old?

No, I'm not.

I'm just a little younger.

I'm just a little younger.

Look, look, I'm just messing with you.

No, it's okay.

It's all good.

But

in terms of seeing yourself in a film emotionally, it seems like this one, in the way you guys interpreted it, was close.

I'm not going to refute that, sir.

And in terms of taking in.

I was born in 1957.

I was born in 1963.

Yeah.

But the idea of

the integrity of the elder's taste.

Are you talking about the generational risk, sir?

I was trying to put it diplomatically.

Well, you were very diplomatic,

but it still hurts.

Hey, look, I'm in the same boat because, you know, in the Curaçao movie, this guy runs a shoe factory.

Right.

And for it to be placed in the world of music and then to have an intergenerational thing and then also deal with the sort of class issue within the friendship of him and Jeffrey Wright's character.

The great Jeffrey Wright.

Unbelievable.

Yes.

But I just saw the sort of moral weight.

And there was a couple moments in the movie that to me struck me in such a way that, and they were passing moments.

Like when he touches his kid's ear in the car.

In the car.

In the car.

Oh, he's mad.

He's mad.

Oh, he's mad.

He's mad.

You know, and then in the office later with his partner basically saying, no one's got your back in this business.

They seem to be the sort of like, those are the

two sides of the heart challenge.

Yes.

And they're just in passing moments.

Now,

when you have moments like that, do you feel the weight of them?

I think it's accumulation of those moments during the course of the film.

Yeah.

And for me, this film is the weight of the film is about morals.

Morals are what you will.

Denzel is such a exquisite actor.

The audience put themselves what he's going through.

Yeah.

And then that means that they're buying into the film.

Yeah.

Which is what you want as a director.

Yeah.

And amazing thing,

they ask themselves, what would they do

in their own lives for what's happening on the screen in front of them?

That's right.

The great Denzel Watts.

Yeah.

And the moment where, because in the...

In an arc like this, you know, that character's got to change.

And in that third act, it's like, this is the change, and this is who this guy is, and this is what's inside of him.

Deep down inside.

That's right.

And he's been like, he's been worn down, though.

Yeah.

You know,

any business can beat you down, especially with the music industry today, where it is where there's

the labels are dropping people on

the staff, and they're dropping groups.

Offices are empty.

Yes.

All over New York.

And any business.

Yes.

It's kind of crazy, man.

Bananas.

Yeah, I I mean, I went to Hearst to do some press for a special I got up, and I was like, where's everybody?

It's just empty computers.

But here's the thing, though.

A lot has to do with

COVID, though, where...

Sure, yeah, you got to get people off the screens and back in.

Yeah, but they, this, I'm sorry, if I was on a business,

your ass is going to be

only coming three days a week.

Hell no.

No, no.

I think some people are going back.

Yeah, but the boss has got to

tell people to come back because, you know, you can only fake it so much when you're sitting in your desk.

But when you go home,

you don't know what they're doing.

No, yeah.

It's not a real conversation if one person can be sitting there going, I'm not wearing pants.

Or less.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, if the camera's not on.

But like...

In terms of how the thing opened, I noticed that in the original movie, and I think throughout most of your work that you know let me shut this air off one of the primary

i run a professional operation one of the primary one-man show that's it one of the primary characters is new york city right yes sir and you know the way you shot it in this thing is different is it different how well it's a different city and you know the the locale is different the the what it implies about the characters and the distance between him and brooklyn and the well he lives in brooklyn that building right right over the river.

Yes.

Yeah.

Which and those buildings weren't there.

This is a new New York, right?

A new Brooklyn.

Yeah.

And in terms of your relationship with that, because the arc of it from the beginning in movies and then through

the 25th hour,

which was

New York at its lowest emotionally.

Yes.

And in Do the Right Thing, it was probably New York at its most chaotic.

And now you have this strange new stability that's

a little sterile, no?

No, it's not sterile.

There are many different.

First of all, it's not even a borough.

It's the neighborhoods.

It's the neighbors that make up the boroughs, and the boroughs make up the city.

So there's the waterfront.

Brooklyn has been brought up.

You know, Dumbo is huge now.

And then the similarism, I wanted to show right away without a whole dialogue.

You see this drone shot that goes up to him on the terrace.

Yeah.

And right away, you know, he has money.

You go in his house, you see the artwork.

So that's

big money.

I mean, Basquiat, and you know, they have money.

Michael Ray Charles.

Yes, Michael Ray Charles.

Callende, so it's

Avadon.

So

he got money.

Yeah.

Yeah, serious money.

And that establishes that.

Right away.

The height, the art, the way he's on the deck.

important phone call from my brother from the giddy up yeah from the jump yeah right away yeah so that that does everything in 30 seconds yes that's all you need yeah and you know there's a problem well you know it's coming

you know it's coming down the bike yeah yeah but this can't be too too good yeah but how do you feel about like you know when in the scenes where

and i i like this there's something you do sometimes where, you know, a future is pictured, but is not happening.

You know, like you did with the music video in this one, right?

And in the 25th hour, you did it with a life that was not had.

Yes.

And it there's

done that a couple of times, huh?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it's an interesting sort of device because it doesn't, it doesn't take you out of the reality of it, but it definitely digs deep into the character's head.

What could have been?

Exactly.

What could have been?

Yeah.

and I just, you know, I read something interesting today about the analogy between Edward Norton's character in 25th Hour, what could have been,

and what could have been for New York.

Hadn't that shit.

Send that to me, please.

You haven't seen that?

No, you said.

It's a Rolling Stone piece from a few years back.

No, send it to me, please.

Yeah,

it was quite an amazing piece because

it discusses that no one was willing to take the risk or had the sort of acute perception to capture New York in that moment.

They were erasing towers out of movies.

Oh, that was horrible.

But

we weren't doing that stuff.

No.

And I was there.

I was on my roof in Queens that morning.

It was the fucking worst.

But the trauma of it, you know, it kind of rippled out for, it's still there.

It's still there.

You're telling the truth.

Has your relationship with New York changed in any way?

You just feel it's the same place.

New York is ever evolving.

Yeah.

And that's my home, you know.

And

New Yorkers go with the flow.

Yeah, but it is sort of the creative resource, right?

Well, not like it used to be because before, Madonna, all these people came from other places and they could find rent someplace.

Right.

You can't do that no more.

Not in New York City.

That's right.

I mean,

the auto

cattle borrows, but

rent is crazy.

Yeah.

So it doesn't have that.

So it's not going to encourage young people can't afford.

I don't make it absolute, but a lot of young people can't afford

to live.

David Burns is not, you know.

You can't live on the lower east side anymore.

Nah, nah, nah, nah.

I lived on second between A and B

in

89.

Yeah, you're just sort of like, I don't need heroin.

I appreciate it.

But you're right in the middle of it right there, though.

It was crazy, man.

But it was artful.

I mean, a lot of artists were right there.

All All down there.

Yeah.

Where'd you come up?

When you were at NYU?

Well, your dad was a musician.

Yeah, so I mean, I grew up, we were the first black family moving to Cobble Hill.

Brooklyn was a stone Italian-American that my parents bought on Brownstone in Fort Green, Brooklyn for like

$50,000.

Yeah.

Right across the street from Fort Green Park.

And

I still, you know, that's my home.

That's my home.

And do you still, like, because the art is such a powerful thing, it's an important piece,

I don't think I've seen it sort of showcased as much in the movies of yours since Bamboozled that, you know, seem to be almost based on a Michael Ray Charles painting.

Right?

Yeah.

That was

Michael Ray Charles got a lot of his work, too, when the getting was good.

Yeah.

Is it big now?

Oh, he's he's,

you need, you need to write several zeros to get by his work today.

And it's worth it, too.

Oh, yeah, it's great.

But when you were a kid in the house of a musician,

so your whole early life, the premium was put on creativity.

Yes, but here's the thing.

My father, Bill Lee, the great jazz bassist, folk bassist.

At one time, he was the go-to guy,

Bob Dylan.

He's on the first Gordon Lifeford album on the first Garfung

album.

Simon and Garfocal, yeah.

And then when

Bob went electric, everybody went electric, and my father refused to play electric bass.

Yeah.

My mother had to go to work.

We would starve because he was not playing electric bass.

Yeah.

Refused to.

And there wasn't enough stand-up bass gigs around?

Everybody went electric.

Yeah.

Even the jazz guys?

Yeah.

Yeah, but when Bob went electric, everybody went.

And the people that he was making his money from.

My mother used to,

every weekend,

Lord and Tales and Bloomingdale, she was living in there.

My father quit, not quit, but if you play jazz or bass, my mother had to start to work to support the family.

We all starved.

All that stuff is in the thing.

Crooklyn.

That autobiography.

I love that thing.

Thank you.

It's weird.

The ones I talk about the most are bamboozled in Crooklyn.

But to be honest, though,

more strange have come up to me on the streets all over the world that said Crooklyn's their favorite film.

It's beautiful.

More than Do-Reinthe, more than Malcolm X.

Now, in terms of that, like with Crooklyn,

in terms of, was Dickerson on that?

No, Ernest, that was the first film that Ernest didn't shoot for me.

Yeah.

But by then, he got on directing himself.

Because the color palette on that thing is like 50% of the movie.

Yeah.

And the thought you put into that and the depth of thinking that goes into creating a color palette and shooting it, there's an intention there, right?

Yes.

And in that movie, it was probably the intention of how bright you saw your childhood to be.

And also, I also wonder thing when the character Troy went down south.

We have the anamorphic,

you know, we used the anamorphic lenses for that stuff, shot down south.

Yeah.

And people were banging on the projection.

Woof.

Really?

It's out of focus, out of focus, out of focus.

People were bugging when we did that.

But that gave you the effect you wanted.

Yes.

Yeah.

100%.

And so when did your dad, did he eventually start picking up playing again?

He started doing my scores.

Yeah.

This score for Sheasta Havana in school days.

Right, right, right.

Great score for Do the Right Thing.

Oh, that's the best, right?

The Mo Beta Blues.

After Mo Beta Blues, the baton was passed to Terrence Blatcher.

And to work with your father in that way creatively, I can't even imagine how amazing that must have been.

It was love.

He was very proud of me.

And

he gave me what I needed

for those films.

But he also did the score for my films

in my graduate films at NYU.

And what was it when you were in NYU?

Because you got, what, four brothers and sisters?

Three brothers, one sister.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm the oldest.

Yeah.

What was it at NYU?

I mean, it's just the gift of

growing up in a household that encouraged creativity.

Yes.

I mean, that's irreplaceable.

Well, parents have a great influence on their children, good and bad.

Sure, yeah.

And so, not only did I get my love of music, my ears from my father, my love of sports came from my father, too.

Sure, yeah.

I mean,

I think it's different today, but back then, I mean, whatever your father's team was, that was your team.

Maybe not so today.

Yeah.

But back then,

no choice.

No choice.

And if the kid didn't like the father's team, the father wasn't around or divorced or something like that.

It was done out of spite.

Yeah, now it is crazy.

Crazy.

I see young kids with their fathers.

I know they're New Yorkers and sick got a Red Sox hat on.

I mean, daddy, what are you doing?

Where have you been?

Where'd you drop the ball?

Yeah.

But also, like, you know, by example, you know, you learn from your parents what to do, what not to do.

But you got the other side too.

Yeah.

It's not just one-sided.

Yeah, yeah.

I guess you're sort of like seeing that up close and and seeing the world of musicians yeah that's a cautionary tale yes yeah and i won't be telling that tale

that didn't make it in

yes my father at the later years had some you know drug issues yeah so sure

and that was just part of it you know jazz musicians back then

i mean it's kind of it's kind of crazy when you think about it where and it wasn't just jazz positions musicians in general yeah thank you and then and then the streets took it up you know but but it isn't i've had the conversation where you're like would

would uh say uh

uh you know not cold train

uh bird

yeah would have gotten there without it yeah

well

They came.

I mean even it with rock, you know, this thing where like drugs make you play better open you up and so you gotta know how to play first.

That's what they didn't tell them.

That's the trick.

They just thought they

do some dope and that's dope.

And then they

be a great musician.

But it don't work like that.

Yeah, he has to do that.

It don't work like that.

Yeah, that's the difference between a junkie and a pro.

Sad but true, you know.

So,

no, it's just

everybody's individuals and they go their own ways and

routes for

who knows what.

And

not all the times end up good.

That's right.

Well, I mean, I think that

that's in this movie.

Yeah.

You know, there's a scene there in the studio

where that was a great scene.

Thank you.

And let me tell you this, my brother.

The scene is great because we didn't do what was written.

Oh, you let him go?

No, I didn't know Denzel was going to start singing bars from Nash Malik and Rocky, no either.

And so when you have great, great musicians or great actors,

directors, whoever you want to call them, they allow.

I'm not going to tell Denzel you can't improv here.

I'll give an example, and he got game

that game can follow the son, Denzel and Ray Allen.

In the script,

Ray Allen asked Jesus in the film, it's supposed to be Levin Zip.

And Denzel played JV for Fordham, and PJ Charisma was his coach.

Yeah.

So in his mind, you never joined.

Denzel never said to me, but in his mind, he was not going to lose 11-0.

And he started throwing up some lucky shots.

And Ray Allen was looking at me like, Spike, this is not what the script is going.

And instead of calling,

you know, cut, he's giving me the technical sign saying, time out, time out.

It was crazy.

But it made the film better.

The film would not have been good if Ray Allen would have won 11-zip.

Yeah.

It made, and Denzel has the instincts.

He's a competitive dude, but it's just, it made the movie better, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so funny.

I once talked to Ethan Hawk about

Training Day.

Right, right.

And he told, I knew.

Hen Kong.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I never forget what he said.

He said, you know, when he got that role, he was watching Denzel movies like teams watch the opposing teams game tapes

because he didn't want to be handed his ass.

Here's the thing, though.

Yeah.

Eaton was right because you come with that weak shit.

It's not going to be nice.

And so that's why.

You've seen that happen?

That's why what makes this film

so great is

the dual high noon between both of those guys

in the recording studio.

And there was a moment there where

you didn't know

because of Denzel's character, before he shifts

and finds his heart again,

there's a point there where he might make the deal.

Coulda, woulda.

Right?

Right.

And you gotta, you gotta play that tension.

Well, Denzel's a genius and he knows how to do these things and just lift the whole film up.

Yeah.

So when you were doing the early stuff,

what was driving you in terms of influence, you know, from NYU?

I mean, because you kind of got it, pretty quickly got your own point of view.

It wasn't that quickly, but I will say this, though, is that

going to NYU graduate film school

where I'm now a tenured professor of film and the artistic director.

How's that going?

I've been there 30 years.

I love teaching.

I love teaching.

And

I wouldn't be there 30 years if I didn't love it.

Yeah.

But in terms of the kids you're seeing, you know, and...

They're grown.

I mean,

they're grown.

Many of them

later may have been,

have left other professionals with doctors, lawyers, stuff like that.

And they want to learn.

They

want to be a filmmaker.

But there is that moment, man, in

this new movie

where

the new breed is laying down his pitch for what makes money.

And you got to be up against that with younger people coming into movies.

What's the easy way?

What if I do a clip to sell the?

Yeah, I just, I'm really, I tell my students, well, I've been through my experience, and I don't try to fake the fuck or lie to them.

Yeah.

And the number one thing is you got to put the work in.

Yeah.

You can't,

you think you're cheating.

You think you're cheating the game, but you're cheating yourself.

Right.

So my thing is work ethic, work ethic, put, you know, work, work.

And here's the thing, though:

that when you love what you do, it's not work.

Right.

So, if you're not working, it's not what you love, right?

Yep.

Uh-huh.

But you say it took time for you to find your vision, but when you're going into those first four movies,

Well, she's got to have it.

Well, I was black and white, right?

I was black and white.

Yeah.

And then, you know, school days, you know.

You know, it was black and white because Jim Jahmers is a stranger in paradise black and white.

You got to keep up.

Jahmers was there while he he was two years ahead of me.

Yeah.

And you loved it?

The publicity, everything that Jim did with Stranger Paradise, I did with She's Abbott because I knew it was successful.

I knew that

I'm going to have to start as an independent filmmaker.

And Jim, even today, when I see Jim, he says, don't say it, Spike, don't say it, but he's my hero.

I mean, Marty was not there, and I was there.

Oliver Stone was not there with NYU, so my contemporary was Jim Jarmers.

Yeah.

And it's so funny because you are the opposite.

You are the opposite of black and white.

You did one black and white movie and then from then on it's like all color all the time.

Yep.

Did you didn't like black and white?

I've had black and white sequences in my film.

Sure.

And I love black and white films, but it's the story.

For me, the story tells you what you should do with it.

Yeah.

So that's that's how I roll.

And outside of Jim Jarmush, you know, what was informing your brain in terms of how you want to shoot?

My other brother, my other NYU brother, Score Stacey.

Yeah?

That's my guy.

Pace.

I mean, it's more than pace, just this whole

his world and how he sees things, how he shoots things, just the utmost.

And here's another thing is that

when you're young, you know, there are people you love, but you never think that you're going to get to become friends with them.

So me, me and Mario, Tite, De Niro.

So

these are giants.

I've become very good friends with Steven Spielberg over the years.

He came, I showed, sometimes I have guests

at my class, and we showed close encounters.

The lights went up.

And then Spielberg walked in front of me to front of the class.

The class went fucking berserk.

You were surprised.

I didn't tell him that Spilford was going to be.

And he was just gracious enough to

spend time with the class.

It's a great movie, though, isn't it?

Close encounter.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

You can't get it out of your head.

And then the color, and he's got Truffaut there.

I was reading into that because, you know, I remember studying film.

I was reading into it.

It's like Truffaut, sight and sound, basic shit.

That's it.

Great movie.

Oh, yeah.

And he's made,

made great films, will continue to make great films.

So I imagine that the early Scorsese stuff in how New York was.

Main streets.

Yeah.

How it was pictured.

The sweat and the grit.

Yeah.

That had to like.

A lot of that was determined by the budget, too.

I mean, he didn't have a lot of money

to do what.

But he's not, he's not unlike you.

He's intrinsically a New York guy.

New York guy.

Yeah.

New York.

Yeah.

And Y-A-W-K.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And like in Giancarlo, look at his career.

Look at that.

Posito?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Plug it out.

Yeah.

Plug it out.

It's amazing.

He was at the screening the other night we had here in LA, and it was just a joy for us to give each other a big hug.

Yeah.

When you watch these movies from back in the day,

as who you are now,

you know what I say?

Oh, we were young.

Do you?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you just see how.

I mean, when I see myself as Mookie and do the right thing, I'm like,

Mookie is kind of old right now.

But is it cringy or is it good?

It's good.

Yeah.

You think back to not only that film, but what you're doing at that time and what was happening in the world at that time.

Yeah.

And how these

all of us talented people came together on this film and gone on to have great careers.

But are you self-critical?

What's done is done.

You give yourself a break.

Yeah.

What's done is done.

Yeah.

You know, you got to, I wouldn't be able to do what I'm doing if I kept living in the past.

You've got to, on to the next one, on to the next one, on to the next one.

I noticed in this movie, no moving devices.

Yes, there are.

There are?

Two.

Oh, shit.

The double dolly shots there twice.

Look, check it out again.

You'll see.

It's even in

the short film, the Vit music video.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I guess

I was always waiting for the moving.

It was moving.

Maybe it wasn't.

I think it was

a little subtle for you, but it was moving.

But that's a music video.

I was waiting for the, you know.

But that's the thing is that that's in his mind's going to happen.

Sure.

But what about that shot?

I didn't invent it.

I didn't invent it.

But it's almost a signature thing.

It's become a signature thing over the years.

The best use of it, in my opinion,

is in Malcolm X.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because

I did a lot of

interviews, and

more than one person said that they thought that Malcolm knew he was going to assassination.

We went to speak at the auto ball room that day.

Yeah.

And then you couple that with one of my favorite songs of all time, A Change Gonna Come

by Sam Cook.

I mean, that's why that's my best

use of the double dollar shot.

Was that one?

It's that one.

Malcolm X.

Yeah, because it was foreshadowing, foreboding.

Yes, that's the word.

Haunted.

Yes.

Yeah.

And when you first started, well, Malcolm X, that's another great example because

that, you know, you had to direct that movie.

And, you know, what I remember about it outside of Denzel's

performance and the story of Malcolm X was how much attention you paid to Zoot Suits.

It was the era.

And we want to, again, want to make people understand this the Zoot suit.

Yeah, but it looks so, it was so visible.

It was like a Hollywood musical.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But you knew that.

We wanted that.

I mean, you see the different color palettes going with the great Ernest Dickerson and cinematographies to take us through many, many different decades and the different phases of Malcolm X's life.

Yes.

Because I know as a comic that Red Fox was there.

Well, he knew.

Yeah.

He's not in the film, but he knew.

Yeah, he knew him right he worked at a restaurant or something yeah yeah they they knew each other yeah yeah but what's your history with with comedy coming up as a kid because I know you did the the Kings of Comedy and I know you comedy

Ed Sullivan yeah

it's funny because

I'm the first of five and so we had to vote for the TV.

Yeah.

I wanted Knicks games and my siblings would vote for the Brady bunch and what's the other one?

Right.

yeah, yeah.

The Parcher family.

Yeah, the Parcher family.

I got voted.

I was like, I want to watch the Knicks.

I'll get out voted.

Even that's in the Crookland.

That's in there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

When does the appreciation for painting start?

For art?

I think

I was able to have somebody to buy some.

Yeah.

And that was it.

Because it's interesting in this movie where, you know, that it does have

a status implication,

but they are works of art.

A lot of that art is from my home.

Yeah.

So it's copies of it.

Yeah.

But I have Basquiats and

not those ones, but a lot of the art is

copies are made

and used in the film.

And again, it's a shortcut to show how fluid they have also their taste.

But does it impact your point of view in terms of creativity?

I mean, like when you see a painter, you know, do that thing or a jazz musician do that thing?

No, it just shows that there's art on the walls, too.

Yeah.

Art on the walls.

Right, but for you as an artist, are you able to appreciate painting in that way or are you just seeing?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, paintings, photographs.

Yeah.

You know, I got

several.

One of my best pieces, I have a lot of.

Yeah.

A portrait of Malcolm X that Richard Abedon signed to me.

Oh, yeah?

Love that.

Photograph.

Yeah, photograph.

Yeah.

Satchel portrait.

Yeah.

That's great.

I have a Vasquiat

that's

about Satchel Page.

He spelled Page wrong.

But Satchel's my daughter's first name.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's special.

Did you know Vasquez?

My brother knew him better.

They went to Art and Design High School.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I went to,

the only time I met him, he came to the after party for the

She's gonna have it premiere.

Yeah, he came with Andy Warhol.

Yeah, and there's a picture of us all together.

Yeah, with Fat Five Freddy.

Yeah, yeah.

Basque, it got away from him, too.

Yeah, it's sad.

Yeah, but he tapped into something.

Yes, he did.

And

he's going to live forever as long as his art is around.

And what about how well did you get to know

Melvin Van Peebles?

He's one of the giants as far as black filmmakers and what he did with sweet, sweet, sweet backs.

So events I got to know him and also

we had a block party the day before we were going to shoot

star Do the Right Thing.

Do the Right Thing was shot on one block.

That's almost like a set.

Yeah, and the block is like a studio set.

The block has been renamed Do the Right Thing Away by New York City.

The only film.

Yeah, don't let Trump take that away.

He might dry if he finds out about it.

So

he came to the kickoff party.

Yeah.

He gave us a blessing.

So I was very honored for that to happen.

I mean, he showed what he didn't need the studio.

Yeah.

He did his thing

against his system, against the studio, made a hit and a declaration, really, for

black independent filmmaking.

Now, Now, in terms of the kind of the confrontation and do the right thing,

and then, you know, in terms of dealing with race in, you know, jungle fever and all the movies

was something, you know, you could feel as a visceral confrontation.

And then for me, the reason I get hung up

on bamboozled, you know, as a comic, and as

I thought that,

and I talk about it a lot, that the way you brought television production values to minstrelsy

was some sort of,

it was something I never thought I'd see and I can't unsee, but the elevation of it delivered the message in a way that was so...

you know, powerful, but poetic that, you know, it seems to me that you put a lot of effort into into making sure

if anything in that movie was going to be right,

it was going to be that fucking TV show

Mantan's Menstrual Show

and I appreciate your state, or you appreciate your statement about that, but for me, for me,

the real, the film is about that last two-minute montage

of images of black, famous, famous,

Judy Garland, I mean, everybody.

Doing blackface.

Doing blackface.

Yeah.

History of that.

Yes.

And the cartoons, and

that's what the film's about.

Right.

And how,

well, what was the last words Randall said in Apocalypse Now?

The horror.

Right.

The horror.

But when you guys were making that.

Yeah, we knew what we were doing.

And here's the thing, though.

There are things in that film that are just painful.

And I knew they were painful.

That's why it was hard to get the film made.

But as myself, as an artist, I'm not just going to close my eyes and not acknowledge

how this hateful

stuff has gone out and definitely affected

the world.

So that was really

how we flipped it.

Yeah,

but because of the production values, you're almost defying a certain part of the audience to like it.

Well,

we had a lot of money.

So we shot that film on

many DVDs.

Yeah.

That was the first one.

It got a lot of press for being shot on digital.

Yes.

And it was a budgetary.

Budgetary.

But it was perfect for the TV show.

It worked for the TV show.

Yeah.

And Damon Waynes and

he was the best kind of worm.

I've been told he didn't like the film when it came out, but

over the years he's come to appreciate it.

Yeah.

He probably got a lot of flack.

Like, why do you do that film?

Why you do that role?

I never asked him about it, but

I think that

I know that film

made a statement about

the industry.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

That I mean I can't like it just blows me away.

What's the name of the Mel Brooks?

Blazing Saddles?

No, the other one.

Who's it?

The one where it's a play and then it flips.

Oh, the producers?

Yeah, that's where the premise of that really comes from.

The producers were,

you know, the intention is to make it a bomb, and then it's the total opposite.

That's right.

Oh, so that's where that came from?

Yeah.

That thinking that

let's do something horrible and then

on purpose, it becomes a hit.

Yeah.

What's the difference

between all the movies you do, like there's a different set of muscles when you're doing docs?

I imagine

a different intention

that you can cover what you can cover in a movie, but

some things

need to be handled journalistically.

And

what drives you to do the docs?

It's a different, like, I think it's a different muscle.

Yeah.

But for me, it's still under the heading of filmmaking.

Right.

So I never want to limit myself, you know, don't put handcuffs on myself.

But in my hands behind my back, you know,

there's many ways to tell a story, many different ways to tell a story.

And how does something like, you know, four little girls come together?

I was hoping you would ask that.

Four Little Girls, I think, is my best filmmaking ever.

For those who don't know at home, Four Little Girls refers to the four beautiful young black girls who were murdered

when

sticks of dynamite were placed on the 16th Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama, then the height of

Civil Rights movie.

So let me tell you this story.

We wanted to be nominated the best

featureless documentary.

And so in order to do that, you have to have a one week, a one week of theatrical run.

In New York was as a film for him.

And so we're beginning to begin that

one-week run, and I get a call from the FBI.

They want to see a print of the film.

Really?

Now, Jay Gahoo knew whose guys were.

Was he still alive then?

Who?

Jay or Gahoo.

I think he died, but it's just still for the FBI.

He was alive when the bomb went off.

They knew within the week who it was.

The guy's nickname was Dynamite Bob.

So before the film was about to open, I get a call from FBI.

Yeah.

And they want to see a print.

Yeah.

I send the print, and a couple of days later, they opened up the case

and indicted two of the other

murderers that were still running around.

Huh.

And was there any party that thought that they were just trying to get ahead of it?

They probably felt they never they didn't get

the bomb went off, the bomb went off in 1963.

I mean, when in.

But they knew you were going to bring it back to the attention.

Oh,

the film was.

The FBI or the murderer.

No, the murderer.

The FBI.

They knew about it.

They had to know about it because they wanted a print.

Yeah.

That's what I mean, that they were, you know, we better resolve this, you know,

synchronistically

with the release.

Yes, with the release of the film.

But they were, you know, Jacob Hoover is not a friend of Dr.

King or the Civil War.

Of course not.

So

that's one of my proudest moments that that film sends people back to jail, to prison after many, many years.

They run around free.

Yeah.

That is

an amazing feat of

successful social activism.

Yes.

And

I got to know the parents very well.

A lot of them are no longer with us.

But the

pain of knowing that young daughter

is

I'll tell you another thing about this.

I have a great researcher, her name is Judy Ailey.

And during the post-production,

she found pictures of the girls.

And I had a long discussion with myself, should these pictures, these grotesque pictures, be put in the film.

And I put them in.

I just felt that the world needed to see

what these sticks of dying did to these beautiful young girls who could have grown up to be doctors, lawyers, just regular, just been allowed to live

and were

killed and nothing but

hate.

I had to think, because I'm thinking about what are the parents going to say when they see us, when they see their children

blown up.

Yeah.

They'd never seen those pictures?

Never.

They must be hidden somewhere because Judy, she's great, she found them.

Yeah.

And so we got nominated for Best Featuring Documentary.

I flew all the family out to

L.A.

We did not win,

but the mother said that it was worth just coming out because they got a kiss from Denzel Washington.

Because we went to he owned a co-owned restaurant at that time.

And so we just went there after the Academy Award.

And

Denzel gave him a hug, a kiss on the cheek, and they were so happy.

And how did they feel about the movie?

Loved it.

Because

even hearing you talk about the process of doing

documentary, yeah, it is a form of filmmaking, but it is essentially journalism.

It's a different responsibility.

Yes, and another big one was about that.

Right now, we're going with the 20th anniversary, you know.

So, my documentary

I did about what happened was that, excuse me, what's happened in New Orleans.

Yeah.

When the levees broke.

When the levee broke broke, yeah.

Yeah.

And do you have the same

that there's a deeper sense of

satisfaction and engagement with unresolved

things within the community within the history of the United States.

Sure.

And

I found that

I become very close.

When I do documentaries,

we stay friends.

It's not like I just, all right, we got the film, see you later.

But

I become very, very

close friends with the parents of

the four little girls who were murdered

in September 1963,

Birmingham, Alabama yeah yeah and the same with the levy yeah got to know those people

well I go to New Orleans yeah

those are my people so uh because it's interesting it's not something you there's a different experience in you know portraying you know Malcolm yeah I mean and the impact of that yeah this is this is

there's a big difference but here's the thing that what makes it the same for me is that it's storytelling.

Sure.

Whereas

it's storytelling.

Yeah.

Both are storytelling to me.

And what about the four-parter?

That must have been

a mountain to climb.

The New York City epicenters.

Oh, yeah.

Med deal with

9-11 also.

Yeah.

Coupled with

COVID.

Yeah.

And

another one of the joints.

I just look it like that, you know, and

move on to the next, but the stuff I've done in the past still stands.

So

I keep it going.

But it must have been, for you personally,

there's a learning experience.

Yeah.

I learn every time I do something.

Yeah.

But like when you're doing a script and you're making choices about

how to shoot a scene, and then on the other hand, you're like, well, look at what I found about this.

Then that deepens your wisdom, your understanding of things.

How do you know that?

It has to.

Of course, yeah, yeah.

I agree with you.

Yes.

And one, you know, and one impacts, I think, documentary filmmaking impacts my

fictional skill stuff.

It helps each other.

Yeah.

Because for me, it's a storyteller.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, all of it, though.

What was interesting about the newest movie is the attention to detail.

Like, you know, you've got a plot point.

They're going to drop this bag.

into the Puerto Rican Day parade, and you're going to spend five minutes with the Puerto Ricans.

We're going to get Anthony Ramos out there,

Rosie Perez, yeah.

But also, who they introduced, the great Eddie Palmieri, who was great, who just passed.

Oh, he did.

Passed away.

But see, that introduces that whole sort of like this is New York.

Yes.

That and the train from the Yankees game.

No, they're going to Yankees State.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

And they're playing the Red Sox.

Yeah.

But just that, and you got.

The reason why I did that, because I wanted to show that young felon is intelligent.

He put this all together.

Yeah.

Oh, no.

I know.

Like, that was

a good misweed.

You know, he had to know.

It wasn't an accident.

He knew that the Red Sox

stayed that war.

It was accident that

this Sunday is a Porga Day parade.

Yep.

Yep.

And then it's like, boom, back and forth.

Who's that guy that

you use?

I think you've used him before, but

the guy who's now on the insurance company commercials, you know, the tough guy.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

State for him.

Yeah, yeah.

What's that guy's name?

Dean.

Yeah.

Dean.

He always delivers.

Yeah.

He delivers that guy.

Uh-huh.

And we play with him, you know, being in the commercial too.

So you do?

You know,

the word just mayhem.

Oh, yeah.

Mayhem.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, he got a pretty good racket.

Dean Winter.

Dean Winter.

Dean Winter.

He got a good racket going for himself.

And when you finally won the Oscar for Black Klansmen,

was there a part of you that's sort of like, bow, fucking time?

The Oscar thing is,

I mean,

here's the thing.

Yeah.

Believe me, I've never won anything.

Do the right thing.

Yeah.

Wasn't even nominated for an Oscar in Drive's Days he won.

Yeah.

Black Clans lost out to

what was the name of that film?

What, for the best picture?

Yeah, best picture.

I don't know.

Someone's being driven in that film, too.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

But I'd not let that

deter me from what I'm doing.

I understand that

oxy don't necessarily mean that's the best

thing.

So just keep it moving.

I'm mad for a day.

You know, then just keep it moving.

On to the next.

Keep it going.

How do you choose the movies if they aren't yours?

I mean, like, when you get like, well, Denzel brought you this script, what makes you want to do something?

Number one, chance work with Denzel Washington.

I mean, Insight Members a long time ago.

Sure.

And in addition, that

takes place in New York City.

Yeah.

It was my home.

I knew what I had to do.

Yeah, yeah.

There was not any.

I have to need.

I knew I had to do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The show the New York I love business well well here's a sort of a

a couple of outside questions is that you know when you shot David Burns' show

that's a guy with a vision right of his own

so what are the discussions and how did that happen when you did American Utopia we've become friends over the years and just said Spike I want you to come to the show yeah and if you like it you know I want you to direct it yeah and me and David are cool like that oh yeah yeah and also like I think that there is a sense somewhere in your brain that you understand a musical.

And there's a

from them jeans, my father's jeans.

I mean, music is part of my who I am.

Yeah.

So my fiber.

So, and I think that David has seen that through my films.

Yeah.

If he doesn't think I know music or can shoot music, he's not going to ask me to do that.

Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, he came to me.

Yeah.

Oh, he did?

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's, I've talked to him too.

He's an interesting guy.

Great guy.

Great guy.

Good.

That band holds up, dude.

Yeah.

And

also, like, the two comedy things, because I'm a comic, the original Kings of Comedy,

which is great.

Thank you.

I remember.

I was at the, what year was that?

I was at the comedy festival in Aspen, Colorado, probably in the mid-90s.

And they had flown Bernie out there.

And it's the middle of the snow, Bernie.

And there's only white people in Aspen.

And it was one of the best things I ever fucking saw in my life.

Yeah, because

he's bringing a world

just by nature of who he is.

And same with the dude who did BB's Kids.

Right.

Robin, right?

Robin Harris.

The best.

Right.

Right?

And you used him in which movie?

Was it Do the Right Thing or the second movie?

Yeah.

Do the Right Thing.

Robin Harris' first film?

It's just that there's a raw world that has not been made, you know, in any way sort of like something that white people can necessarily understand.

And to see it in Aspen, Colorado.

They dug it, though, right?

Well, they when they got past the fear.

Had to get past that first, right?

Yeah, sometimes it's hard, you know.

I understand.

I understand.

But when you shot that, was that in DL at that time, too?

Like,

DL, young D.

L.

was fucking intense,

solid.

Right.

But was that just...

We shot two shows.

Yeah, that's all you need to do.

North Carolina.

Yeah.

And we

could become a classic.

Hell yeah.

And what brought you around to, because I know you shot.

Gerard Carmichael when he was barely ready.

How'd that happen?

He asked me.

In fact, I didn't really know who he was when he asked me.

For real.

I saw a couple of shows.

I said, come on, let's go.

And did you knock it out in a day or two?

That was one night, two performances.

Yeah.

It was the classic for me.

It's Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy, you know, those things.

Dude.

You know, to see that.

Did you know Richard?

I saw him towards the end.

I was a doorman at the comedy store.

I did not know him,

but I remember him.

Oh, you've seen people coming through there, though.

I know you have.

Yeah, when I was, yeah, sure.

But when he, when I first got that job in the late 80s as a doorman, he started coming back around again.

And he'd been out for a while.

Yeah, a little over.

And the vulnerability of that guy was genuine.

Like, you know, I saw him go up on stage in the little room over there and not do well.

And he couldn't, you know, he couldn't hold the audience.

And it was so painful and so amazing that to me as a comic who's taking that in that you're going to show up with that kind of vulnerability and take what comes is pretty heavy yeah

let me ask this what what is what

comedians are crazy would you say that some of them

company included

sure yeah yeah

I mean, to get up, to get up there on the stage, you're naked.

You're butt naked.

Yep.

And just.

Well, you know, you're...

Rough business, huh?

Well,

you learn how to, you know,

you get a suit of armor

that enables you.

The armor is the clothes

to cover your naked body.

That's right.

You know, it becomes part of your personality.

But like, again, once you've been doing it, once the real fear goes away, which I imagine you experience as an artist, that, you know, for so much of your career early on, you've got to pretend that you're not afraid.

Right.

and and that repeat that repeat that please for our audience pretend that you're not afraid and and then you know live in that until the fear goes away and that day when that day comes that's pretty freeing but you feel it right yeah so let me ask this question yeah what happens i'm not talking about you but when a comedian bombs

yeah well you know

Not from your experience, I know you never bombed in your life.

No, no, no, no, you do.

Sure, you do.

I bombed a lot because I'm an angry fuck.

What are you angry about?

You know, just that I'm here.

Where do you want to be?

Not sure.

And that's a tough predicament.

Well, there's another place you definitely don't want to be.

That's right.

I think it's here, you know, that you're here.

But bombing.

on some level, it took me a long time to learn it, is, you know, it's part of the job.

You know, so you watch, if you watch rock, you go up to workout shit.

He's not going to put any dance, he's not going to put any spin on it.

He's not going to run around.

He's not going to do the rock thing, you know, where he's repeating and he's pacing.

He'll just go up with the jokes that he wrote, present them with almost maybe at 25% personality

just to see if the jokes work.

And

it doesn't, it's not that it goes badly, but he knows that he's not going to kill.

And that takes courage.

So the bombing thing, I think you get to a certain point where you're not going to totally eat shit, but you just start to know where the level is.

Like, well, they're not coming with me for the whole thing.

Eat shit.

They're not going to totally eat shit.

But I'll tell you what you do feel, at least I do, is when it's not getting to where you, when you know you're not hitting and every joke is a different mountain, I get that, it's a little bit of sweat on the back of my neck.

That's how my inner self knows that it's going down.

I've had that sweat at the back of my neck, and it wasn't about telling jokes either.

What was it about?

Well, we've all had some uncomfortable,

uncomfortable

things in our life.

Yeah.

It's not a good feeling.

No, but you, but if you got your chops, you got to stay in the fucking saddle.

Yes, you're right.

And hopefully.

And stay in there.

And hopefully the sweat doesn't start coming down your forehead.

Yeah, and

it can make you better.

Well, yeah, it'll get you tough.

Yeah.

You know,

tough business, though, comedians, all right?

Tough business.

Sure.

It is, and I've been doing it

most of my life.

That's how to start.

To limited success at times.

How to start?

Yeah.

Well, it's like anything else, you know.

Where'd you grow up?

I grew up in, my folks are from Jersey.

I grew up in New Mexico.

Yeah, but what exit in New Jersey?

I know.

Anytime I saw something in New Jersey, I was my first.

What exit?

I know nothing about New Jersey.

I don't either.

I got out too young.

But I was driven because I felt that comedians, you know, for me, it was not to be an entertainer.

I felt like they had a handle on presenting truth

in a way that will make you see things differently.

Lenny Bruce, Richard Pryor.

Sure.

But just the idea that they could compartmentalize the most horrible things about life and the most frightening things about life into a package where you could sort of handle it.

And I thought that was a noble undertaking.

That's my take on it.

I saw some guy at the...

It was so funny.

I saw

Lil Ray.

Howry.

He was sitting next to me last night.

We guys were talking about...

At the screening?

Yeah, yeah.

Got to talking about the road.

Bill Bellamy, another guy I've known forever.

He was there.

Comics were there.

The comics weren't in the house?

They certainly were.

So what's the plan now?

You're going to run around and sell this movie?

Yeah, it opens tomorrow.

And then September 5th goes Apple

Plus.

And you got another deal with them to do another one?

Who?

Apple?

No.

No.

That's just where it ended up?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you got anything on the plate?

Yeah, stuff.

I have stuff on the plate, but nothing I can really talk about in this moment of time and space.

Yeah, okay.

okay.

But you're excited about it?

Oh, yes, yes.

And anytime I get to work with my brother, Denzel Washer, you know, we're the dynamic duvo.

Oh, yeah.

And we do our thing.

So it's a blessing.

I can watch him do almost anything.

Brush his teeth.

I mean, just, I mean, he's that dude.

He's

that dude.

Oh, man.

He's that dude.

He's got, I'll watch all those equalizer movies.

I'll fucking watch him.

He's that dude.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nice guy.

Very nice.

yeah very humble but

if you do something wrong

then you're gonna get you're gonna feel the heat

so you step by the line no you're gonna say i wish i do that

but it's quick right it doesn't last a long time oh no you don't it's it's like

lightning quick yeah yeah yeah and then it's done and then it keeps stepping well i think i think brolin tells a story about that.

Josh Brolin.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, don't touch me.

Nah, you don't want to mess with D.

Yeah.

You don't want to do that.

Well, I enjoyed the movie.

Well, thank you so much.

And I hope this conversation was enjoyable.

Oh, of course, of course.

I mean.

And I saw somewhere you mentioned Face in the Crowd.

That's one of my favorite films.

How great is it?

I mean, my guy,

Bud Schulberg, wrote that, who wrote

on the waterfront.

Yeah, yeah.

So

we wrote a script together, which I'm still going to make because I promised to Bud we would make it on his deathbed.

It's called Save With Joe Lewis about the relationship between

the two heavyweights, Joe Lewis and Max Schmellon.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And how's that coming?

It's going to happen.

I made a promise to Bud on his deathbed.

We became very, very close.

What is it about,

like, say, because like Face in the Crowds, it's not an easy movie to find, generally.

Yeah, but here's the thing, though.

Yeah.

I'm going to talk about Billy Wilder and Kazan.

They both won, went big with

Sunset Boulevard and on the waterfront.

And the next two films bombed because of that time.

America wasn't ready for those films.

Yeah.

And the apartment, too.

Yeah.

But it's really the Face in the Crowd.

Yeah.

And

the

Wilder film.

Oh, Ace in the Hole.

Ace in the Hole.

The best.

But those films bombed.

America was not ready for

those

films that came after the Oscar winners.

Yeah.

Well, Ace in the Hole is hard to find.

Face in the Crowd is hard to find.

And I think they tried to rename Ace in the Hole.

You know, to...

They called it the Big Carnival.

The Big Carnival.

A lot of times the films

work back in old Hollywood,

they put it back out to the theaters with a different title thing.

People would know it was the same motherfucker.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, they're trying to sell it.

But the social satire, the cutting.

America was not ready

at that time for those two films.

Face in the Crowd is like devastating.

I gave it to a friend of mine who's become a big star as a cautionary tale.

I was like, maybe you should watch this, buddy.

And you, I mean, people grew up watching Mary Berry RFD, but they did not see

that role.

They did not see Andrew Gibbon do that role.

Yeah, but what was it about those two guys in terms of their point of view that struck you so hard?

The cynicism.

Yeah.

It's okay to do it.

And also, it's like morality, which is a big thing in our field.

Yes.

Kirk Douglas,

he could get the story, but he's going to keep that guy buried

to keep it going.

Yeah, right.

And the guy ends up dying.

Right.

Right.

Andy Griffin,

you know, he's still a CD Cove.

Yeah, he keeps getting the money.

Everybody goes away.

Yep.

And he's going to run to be president.

He's that lineup for President of the United States.

That's right.

Imagine that, a clown as president.

Patricia Neal.

Oh, my God.

She

flipped the

levers so this hate could go out all over

America.

And then he got exposed.

Yeah.

But at that time, America was not dating.

They ain't won't.

Uh-uh.

So, yeah, but so it was just basically the courage to be cutting

and to show the truth in a way that, like you're saying, they weren't ready for, but it was about as palatable as they could do at that time.

They thought that they could do it.

Billy Wilder.

Kazan.

Bud wrote that script.

Bud wanted Oscar for Underwaterfront.

Kazan won Oscar best to write.

Well, that thing probably.

And Billy Wilder, I mean, they wanted to turn Oscars for Sunset Bullet.

Yeah.

Also cutting, also cynical.

Yeah.

And so the Big Knife, too, the big knife.

You know that one with Rod Steiger, Jack Palance?

I got to check that out.

Dude, about the studio head, you know, and the actor?

Like, you know, it's an Odette script.

Right.

And the Clevered Odette.

Yeah.

But the Big Knife is about a studio head.

I got to check that out.

Who's got this guy on contract, Jack Palance, who come from

Jack Palance?

Yeah.

He comes from New York.

He was part of the People's Theater.

He believed in the integrity of the art.

And he sold his soul.

And then he woke up, right?

That's another one that goes right into that

America Wasn't Ready For it category.

Anyway, good to talk movies.

All right.

Have me back.

Have me back.

There you go.

Spike Lee.

Again, as I mentioned at the top of the show, highest to lowest is streaming on Apple TV Plus beginning tomorrow, September 5th.

Hang out for a minute, folks.

People, next week we have another guest we've been trying to get into the garage for a while.

To many people, he's Luke Skywalker.

To others, he's the Joker.

To me, he's always the guy from the Big Red One with Lee Marvin.

It's Mark Hamill.

You know, I imagine people talk to you about Star Wars a lot, but I'd like to focus the entire hour on Sam Fuller.

Oh,

please do.

Listen, I'll tell you something.

When they offered me that, the big red one.

The big red one.

Yeah.

I had an offer to go do Equus in San Francisco, and I was sort of thinking, why would I want to go, we were shooting in Israel, recreate the, you know,

storming of Normandy Beach with all these young Turks that are around my age.

Yeah.

But I thought, I love Sam so much, I said, I should go at least go meet him and not just turn it down outright.

So my point was I was going to go meet him and explain to him why I didn't want to do it.

He was such a dynamo little guy.

Yeah.

But he got up and he started like acting out the movie.

It was first-hand experience.

He was just a teenager when he fought World War II.

And I'm watching this guy and he says, and then you get out there.

Actually, it was Kalowitz, but I'm going to give it to you because you're so handsome.

And he's acting out the movie and I'm mesmerized and I'm thinking, holy shit, I've just been drafted.

There's no way I can't work with this guy.

That's Monday's episode of WTF.

And just a reminder before we go, this podcast is hosted by ACAST.

Here, I just, I wanted to mellow out a pretty heavy song that we're actually going to be doing on September 10th.

But we're going to do the heavy version.

Boomer lives,

monkey and the fonda,

cat angels everywhere.