Mastering Authority: How Writing a Book Elevates Your Brand and Generates Powerful Leads

Speaker 1 Hello guys and welcome to this week's edition of the UCAM podcast.

Speaker 1 Today I am joined by the very lovely Karen Stanley of Mabel and Stanley Publishing and we are going to be talking around publishing your own book.

Speaker 1 So Karen, if you'd like to do a little introduction to you and what you're all about. I will do.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 So I started writing myself about 11 years ago and after a very tumultuous and bumpy publishing journey I came to the point where I'm at now.

Speaker 1 I started Mabel and Stanley Publishing about or in 2021 I think now I'm on to about 50 authors published coming up to number 50 pretty soon and I'm a writing mentor and publisher having taught literacy for about 20 years i think so i've pretty much been all about books my whole life really um and now i get to do what i love which is write and help people to write their books so it's wonderful.

Speaker 1 So tell me like what what's the point in writing a book? I'm a big fan but you know what's your kind of take on it where have you seen it work for people?

Speaker 1 Well there's two types of writers I think there's business writers which is obviously what we're going to talk about a bit more today and there's writers who write for pleasure and they they tend to be more like fiction writers but if we're talking about business writers The thing about business books is they are not going to make you a millionaire overnight, despite what people tell you.

Speaker 1 And it's a bit of a shame, but that's just life.

Speaker 1 But what they will do is open up lots of opportunities. And I, when I talk about writing, I like to think of your book as kind of like the pebble.

Speaker 1 You know, you drop the pebble in the water and it's the ripples that come out. And it's those ripples of opportunity that are invaluable to business, business owners.

Speaker 1 Talking about things like speaking gigs, a very good friend of mine who published her book, Beyond the Feed. You can see it behind me.

Speaker 1 Spoken all over the world and we're struggling to get speaking gigs in America. Some people will only want you to speak if you're published.
There's quite a lot of kudos attached to that.

Speaker 1 It can very much position you as a thought leader in your field, as an industry expert, because you're actually putting your money where your mouth is, really.

Speaker 1 You're putting your thoughts onto a page and

Speaker 1 opening up your expertise for people to buy.

Speaker 1 It's probably one of the best lead magnets you'll ever create because it gets, you know, those customers who might or future clients who think, well, do I want to work with that person?

Speaker 1 They might read your book and think, yeah, I definitely want to work with that person now.

Speaker 1 And they've got that time to read what you're talking about without that pressure to maybe engage straight away. It gives them that kind of thinking time, really, to kind of get into your world.

Speaker 1 So, I would say, from a point of view of a lead magnet, from speaking opportunities, from expertise, kudos, credibility, there's still an awful lot of credibility attached to writing a business book because, as you know, it's not an easy thing, you know, it takes commitment.

Speaker 1 I mean, I've had, I've had lots of weeping mentorees on my books over the years, but, you know, it is difficult and it takes time and commitment. So rightly so,

Speaker 1 it's still very highly regarded. So it's a wonderful thing.
Yeah. And touching on that point, it isn't straightforward to do.
Is it? It does take a lot of effort.

Speaker 1 What do you think people struggle with the most?

Speaker 1 A few things really. One is sometimes just organising their thoughts and ideas.

Speaker 1 And quite often, the problem is they come to me with so many ideas they literally don't know where to start it's almost like they're overwhelmed so then we start to a rather um unpleasant analogy but we start to brain dump everything that they've got in their head we kind of get that all out and then we soon soon start to quickly realize that maybe well you've actually got two books here or you've really got that all of those ideas are a book but those ideas have got nothing to do with that and you've gone off on a bit of a tangent so i would say the main thing is organizing their thoughts and ideas and kind of sifting through how much is too much, what you're going to use and how much you're going to include in that book to make it relevant.

Speaker 1 Organising your time is always going to be tricky and finding that dedication, which is why having a mentor is a good idea because they can keep you accountable, give you a little bit of a kick up the dairy hair if you really fall off the wagon, or if you just need a little bit of inspiration or a bit of, you know, kind of ginging up and a bit of moral support really, or if you get stuck with the technicalities of writing.

Speaker 1 so i would say it's actually the organization and committing to that process and getting started you know i think it was stephen king who said um the hardest part about writing a book is right before you start and i thought that's fairly valid actually to be fair yeah because it is i you know i remember you know from a sort of background on this guys like i didn't know karen before i started my my book uh creating my book uh it was quite a while afterwards that i met karen so um she didn't help me with my book,

Speaker 1 but I did start

Speaker 1 with actually just reading. Well,

Speaker 1 I did the dictating it, which for me did not work because I talk and I go off on random things and everything else.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I think it does have its place, but for me, it just wasn't the format that worked trying to then sift through that and actually get anything tangible out of it.

Speaker 1 And when I did go to somebody to get support, because I was like,

Speaker 1 I don't think this is very good and I think that's the thing is if that was my biggest concern and that's why I ended up getting support

Speaker 1 because I felt like I wanted to do it justice and I didn't feel like what I had there created at that time was was doing it justice was doing me justice and there is absolutely definitely that propensity to want to just put everything you've got in your brain out onto a page which was kind of what I did the first time and you know the feedback was quite fairly you know like this isn't readable like there's a lot of information in here

Speaker 1 but it's a little bit yeah but it but true um but you know it wasn't they said it's a bit like you know when you're um you're you're you're into different series and people say to you oh well season two is a bit rubbish but season three is really good and you're like but you know that's like 15 hours worth of of watching to to get to a good season and it's the same with the book you you don't want people who are trying to learn from you to have to kind of sit through and put up with um to pick out that the bits of information it needs to be there and it needs to be easily accessible doesn't it absolutely they need the money shots don't they really as you say they don't want to rifle through your ramblings as interesting as they may be over a glass of wine you know if someone picks up a business book they want they want to take action don't they they want to get the information they want to be able to to put it into practice and they want to see the results and maybe then think actually i need more help and come into your world even further which is the ideal scenario but yeah it's there's there's a real skill to writing a good business book and that it comes down a lot to the structure how you structure your thoughts and ideas and then how you relay them to your audience and one of the things I talk about a lot before we even start writing the book is what are your goals and objectives for this book it's the same as anything in business isn't it if you don't know what you're hoping to achieve from the book it's like getting in the car without the sat nav on you're not going to go where you think you're going to go if you've got no idea of where you're going.

Speaker 1 And also knowing your audience, like, who's it for? Who are you trying to help?

Speaker 1 I know when I first started out in business a few years ago now, I thought, oh, look, my customers, I mean, I don't know how many times you've probably heard this. My customer is everybody.

Speaker 1 And my mentor at the time went, nope, Bloomin' Well isn't, you know, because you're never going to, you know, and I thought, well, I could help everyone.

Speaker 1 You know, you need to niche down, don't you, to get that message on point? Because otherwise, you're not going to please all of the people all of the time.

Speaker 1 So it's important to know what your niche is, what you're trying to relay, what you're trying to achieve, what you want your reader to achieve, who your reader is.

Speaker 1 And then that's when you can start to make a cohesive plan. But again,

Speaker 1 that also comes into finding your writing voice. If you're trying to please all of the people all of the time, your voice is going to be so confused.

Speaker 1 in simple terms like you can't write a children's book that is also an adult's book that is also suitable for teenagers that is also suitable for old ladies in a nursing home it just doesn't work so you know slightly ridiculous analogy but you need to know who it is you're trying and then you'll get your voice right then you'll get your tone right then you'll get the pace right and then you can create a plan that actually does what it says on the tin rather than shoot off on various tangents which we all have a tendency to do at times we do we do and that's the thing is i think sometimes people say to me because i speak to people over you know like where's your business plan and they're like oh it's in my head and I'm like it can't be that good and that's the thing is is like even if you think you know what I've been surrounded by these people for years and I really know them even just writing it down it the process of writing it down and consolidating that is is really beneficial like there is too much time wrapped up in a book to kind of wing it you don't want to be winging particularly those foundations because that's the starting point and you don't want to as you say end up with something which you're all over the place the language you use is all over the place.

Speaker 1 You're not really appealing to anybody. It needs to be dialed in so that it's an effective use of your time, isn't it? Yeah.
And also it's your calling card. It's your voice in your absence.

Speaker 1 So the last thing you want to do is to put out a book that people go, oh, I thought she was a bit better than that.

Speaker 1 You know, you want that book to be as good as it can be and people for it to be a good reflection of your professionalism, your expertise, your knowledge.

Speaker 1 And like you said, it takes a lot of time and a whole lot of effort. Why are you going to put all of that into something that's a bit meh? You know, you want something that really hits the spot.

Speaker 1 So the planning and the kind of organizing and the getting it all structured properly, maybe it's a little bit tedious. Some of us, you know, want to get straight in, but it's worth it.

Speaker 1 I'm guilty of that sometimes. But it's worth its weight and gold to get that structure right.

Speaker 1 And actually, if you get the structure right, it's a whole lot easier to write it because then you've got chapters subheadings you know like some people come to me say i'm so overwhelmed i'm you know going to write this book and it's got to be 30 to 40 000 words where the heck am i going to start so i say well we time your writing speed so you know i don't know you can write a thousand words an hour so now you know that's 30 hours of writing so now we'll create our plan now we've created our goals objectives who we're helping we then say right okay how are we going to help those people let's create a chapter plan so say we've got now 10 chapters.

Speaker 1 So, already I've broken that 30,000 words down into 10 lots of 3,000 words, which is suddenly a whole lot more achievable.

Speaker 1 And if you then break that chapter down into, say, five or six subheadings, we talk in what, like 500 words per subheading. And then it suddenly becomes like, actually, yeah, I've got this.

Speaker 1 This is all right. But

Speaker 1 that switches, doesn't it? Yeah. It then switches to how am I going to say that in such a short period of time?

Speaker 1 and that's that's the struggle that I had and I remember being overfaced because there's different publishing isn't it that the words seem to be it kind of that when you're getting support with it and everything people talk around it needs to be this sort of length of book and then from there it I was like, well, that's a lot of words.

Speaker 1 And then as you said, we then broke it down into chapters and I was like, well, that's a little bit more manageable. And then it was like, actually, the subheading stuff.
And I was like, I can't.

Speaker 1 And I was there going, well, this one's probably shorter. So I could probably borrow a bit from here.

Speaker 1 And, you know, cutting it down and keeping within the word count was, was then my challenge with it,

Speaker 1 which is, it's so strange to

Speaker 1 a flip. Just like, oh, can I not just be happy at some point?

Speaker 1 Because you're going to go from, oh, that's overwhelming to, oh, gosh, I don't know how I'm going to do it in that, in that level of restriction, which is really interesting.

Speaker 1 As far as writing a book, when do you think is the best time as far as like your business and your expertise? Like,

Speaker 1 people think, oh, I'll do it when I know enough. And it's like, but when's enough?

Speaker 1 When would you recommend for somebody to take the plunge on it?

Speaker 1 I mean, I've spoken to people at length, obviously, about this, and loads of people said, well, I can't write a book yet because I don't know it all and I haven't finished it.

Speaker 1 I said, what on earth would be the point of writing it when you've finished?

Speaker 1 We're writing this as a lead magnet. You won't lead it by the time you finish.
So I definitely think.

Speaker 1 You know, it's kind of that analogy. I'm going to wait until I've got enough money before I have children.

Speaker 1 You'll be about 95 before that moment comes. So, you know, you can wait too long.

Speaker 1 You know, you don't need to know everything. It's like when you create an online course, isn't it? You don't need to know it all.

Speaker 1 You don't need to, sometimes the course evolves as, I mean, obviously the book's got to be out there, but that'll evolve as you go through your journey on that course. And the book's the same, really.

Speaker 1 There's nothing to say you can't write a book quite early on in your journey.

Speaker 1 and then a few years later write another book that is the sequel to that book that fills in the gaps and gives gives people more information so i mean i don't think i would start a business and think i'm going to write a book at the same time i would question whether that's uh sane because that would be a lot to take on

Speaker 1 but i i certainly think once you've been in business a couple of years and you feel confident enough in your subject matter that you've got something to share and you feel confident enough in your knowledge and your expertise you know who your audience are you've got a proven method of teaching what you're teaching then i don't think you know there's any real time limit on it but yeah I think you need to have a little bit of grounding before you start simply because as well when you start your own business there's so much to do you certainly haven't got time to write a book as well um but yeah don't but certainly don't wait till the end because it's you know if you waited until you're absolutely ready you could be waiting forever you know sometimes you've got to feel and you can't use it then you can't use it as a resource if you've you like oh i've made it now i'm going to write the book and it's like but then i don't need the book so why are you writing it?

Speaker 1 And I think that's the thing to kind of bear in mind with it. Also, as you said in the beginning, it is a lot to take on.
It's also quite a slow burner, isn't it?

Speaker 1 It's not going to, you know, it's not like chapter one, boom, I've got thousands of clients.

Speaker 1 Um, you know, it's got you've got to go through the process of writing the whole thing, getting it published, doing a launch.

Speaker 1 It's better to launch it to an audience if you're going to go for bestseller status. And then, obviously, you've got on top of that is who is the audience.

Speaker 1 And if you can work with people for a period of time, even if you aren't selling, you know, there's obviously business coaches write books, but there's also people who they run their own business within their level of expertise.

Speaker 1 So they're selling their expertise to an audience of people.

Speaker 1 And even then, understanding who those people are, how best to communicate with them when they're, when you're priming them up to be a buyer, rather than just educating them on a subject, you know, it makes sense to wait until you feel you've got that understanding before you go off and do that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And lots of people will write a business book that backs up a course that they've got, for example.
I mean, that's a great way to tackle it.

Speaker 1 If you've got, um, you know, uh, Chrissy up here, she wrote Market, oh, there, Market Like a Pop Star. That's a great book.
And that's that basically is what she teaches in her marketing strategy.

Speaker 1 It's it's very much her 10-step process that she teaches to her clients.

Speaker 1 So, for those clients who maybe can't haven't got the budget to work with her directly, or maybe aren't at that stage for a mentor just yet, well, they can take the book and have a kind of a do-it-yourself approach, but it's everything that she teaches, but in the book.

Speaker 1 So if you're already teaching a course or you're already sharing that knowledge in a different way, or maybe you're coaching or mentoring or something along those lines, then that's a perfect opportunity to put it into a book.

Speaker 1 And then that's kind of a low-ticket way that people can come in into the world.

Speaker 1 And these days, you know, with QR codes and websites and all of that kind of thing, you can put all of your social links in the book. You can direct them to landing pages.

Speaker 1 You can direct them to mailing lists um lots of um i know uh zoe and um ryan here i've got lots of people behind me um they've got like tasks that people can do and then they've got downloadable resources that they can get from the book so there's it's a really great way to people get people into your world but it's not it's not maybe as confrontational as some selling can be it's quite quite a nice gentle way of of people coming into your into your world that way so it's very much them opting in isn't it I mean, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 It's good mindset. Oh, there you go.

Speaker 1 Mine go.

Speaker 1 Is

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 activities at the end of each chapter? And so the plus point of that is you can have it on someone like Amazon where they will sell it.

Speaker 1 I can never work out even the commission side of stuff. I just get sent money each month, which seems to vary greatly.
And I'm always very confused.

Speaker 1 But Amazon is a great way to obviously get your name out there and for people to be as a touch point.

Speaker 1 But then from there, people are then um able to to download and opt in so that you know if you have a gated resource they put their email address in in order for the information to be sent or in order to access the information then straight away you can have it set up that it drops into your inbox that this person has signed up for these resources that's what i get um you know that's a great opportunity then you can reach out you can strike up conversations with these people you actually have them and there's a lead whereas otherwise you know if they're but they're sold by a third party like amazon you're never going to know actually who purchased them and so having something like that built in it adds value it does bring them more into your world and it's just so an opt-in like there's i cannot control who who does that um you know some people will buy the book and they don't do that um some people will will do that and you know that they're then the more motivated leads anyway yeah um but it is a really really great opportunity for you to and i suppose with qr codes you you only have to add the qr code and then you can edit that qr code with the most recent up-to-date stuff at any point, can't you?

Speaker 1 So you don't even have to worry about it getting old. No, no.
And QR codes I found recently, I don't know if you probably know this, but if you create them in Canva, they don't expire.

Speaker 1 Oh, really? Yeah,

Speaker 1 little thing I picked up along the way because I kept thinking, God, this is a bit of a pain. You can create them on, you know, QR free QR reader or whatever it is online.

Speaker 1 And there are loads of sites like that, but then they do expire, which I didn't realise to start with. But yeah, if you create them in Canva, they don't expire, which is a very useful little trick.

Speaker 1 And how did we ever cope with our Canva? You know what, though, I have to say, of all the things, it's like that's one of the things that people, my clients sign up to pretty much straight away.

Speaker 1 The newbies. Brilliant.
It's just so useful. And if you think what we used to do, flapping around with Adobe, and then now you've got all this stuff.

Speaker 1 And do you use, do you use Canva for the books?

Speaker 1 But most of those book covers behind me have been done on canva um and i mean the thing i would say you your book cover does have to be good if you create a um

Speaker 1 what's the word kind of unprofessional bit homegrown looking book cover it will notice and it will devalue your book so you do need a little bit of experience to make sure that it looks how it should look but with a bit of practice you can create something pretty professional to be fair yeah and what i always advise my clients to do i mean i do i do help clients with their book covers if they want to some some are a bit adventurous but for those who find that tricky i'm happy to help them with that but what i do say is go online and look at books in your genre what you like what you don't like and also you know it's great to be a little bit different but if you create a cover that's not in line with that genre people will overlook it So, you know, people who read chiclet, for example, they're expecting something from a cover.

Speaker 1 They're usually like pastel colours and there's usually kind of a bit of a romantic kind of feel to it. People who buy business books, they want the title to say exactly what it says on the tin.

Speaker 1 They want, you know, and particularly nowadays with SEO and all of that, you don't want some convoluted title that takes Einstein to work out what you actually mean.

Speaker 1 Don't, don't try and be too clever. Just say that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, say what you're doing.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You want people to find you and you want people to instantly go, yeah, that's the book for me.

Speaker 1 You know, if your title speaks to your readers' pains and challenges, that's the book they're going to pick up, aren't they?

Speaker 1 You know, and you know, there is a tendency to some people I've spoken to want to put their

Speaker 1 picture on the front cover, which is lovely, but unless it's a memoir, I would probably say don't.

Speaker 1 Because the problem with that is if you're not a well-known face, people will go, I don't know who that person is, it's probably not relevant to me.

Speaker 1 So, what you're trying to do is create that kind of whole aura of, yeah, this is the book for me. It speaks to its audience and they're likely to.

Speaker 1 And the great thing about business book cards, they're such fun to do, but they're so kind of simple nowadays. And I love that about them.
They are basically the title.

Speaker 1 And it's a lot of messing around with cool fonts and, you know,

Speaker 1 but it's very doable, but it takes practice. And you do need to do your research and look at what.
what other books in your genre are doing.

Speaker 1 You don't want to be the,

Speaker 1 you know, the kind of

Speaker 1 the awkward looking book in a

Speaker 1 stand out for all the wrong reasons.

Speaker 1 And because with my, my, my, had my book done, I worked with somebody to, to, and they did like a package, and we actually, I wasn't happy with what they were creating. And I got a designer to do it.

Speaker 1 And actually, the, the title, the book.

Speaker 1 title and the fonts and everything else it was for the book and then i then used that in my business branding and and so i updated my my business branding to relate to that and for me it was really important and when I looked at what they had created it was probably enough yeah

Speaker 1 but it wasn't my it wasn't it ticked a box it was a cover but it just wasn't I don't like it wants to look it wants to look just so I think you know that's that's um I know Chrissy in particular her market like a pop star that's all branded with her colours which she was she was quite keen to do which is great um but you know it's an individual thing but there are certain norms and it's wise to follow them if you if you want to get the best from your book certainly i would say

Speaker 1 blurb a good blurb a blurb is hard to write that's the little bit on the back which says what's in the book um and it's a few paragraphs that tells you in a kind of nutshell what the book's about they can be harder to write than the whole book because you've got to get the you know level yeah you've got to get that information yeah exactly but a good blurb that's that's you know people will look at the cover go oh yeah that looks interesting turn it over, look at the blurb, and go,

Speaker 1 Yes, that's exactly the book for me. So, that's that's really what you're you're trying to get.

Speaker 1 So, it is a bit of a, there's a lot to think about, it is a bit of a minefield, isn't it? Yeah, and you know, that that's where having somebody to help you really comes in.

Speaker 1 I mean, to be honest, I've been writing myself for 11 books for 11 years.

Speaker 1 I've written 16 books now, and um, I can't even tell you if we if we were going to talk about the mistakes I made, this would be this episode would be too long.

Speaker 1 Is it long enough for a book? Could you write a book about the mistakes you make writing a book? A couple of books. I would say a couple of books.

Speaker 1 But I mean, looking back now, I'm quite pleased because I learnt so much and I can really give good information and helpful knowledge and say, Do not do that.

Speaker 1 From my experience, that's a you know, that's a no-no. But this really worked for me.
So, you know, I've got to try and think of it at the time.

Speaker 1 There was a lot of tears of frustration, but it's taught me a lot. But it is a minefield.
There's a lot of unscrupulous people out there. You really have to do your research.

Speaker 1 It can be a bit of a closed shop. Nobody really wants to tell you.
There's an awful lot of experts who will tell you stuff that simply isn't true.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 it's quite difficult. And when you start in it, it's a world that you really.
don't know anything about

Speaker 1 it really tricky and even if you google it goodness me you get so much conflicting information It's really hard to sort out the, you know, the

Speaker 1 good stuff from the terrible stuff. So it is, and it is quite daunting.
I think, you know, don't feel bad if you, if you think, goodness me, this is overwhelming, because it really is. It really is.

Speaker 1 It's taken me 11 years, I think. And I finally feel in a place where, yeah, I'm quite confident.
I know what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 But even then, sometimes something will get thrown up with a book that I'm doing. I think, oh my God, I didn't see that coming.
You know, I've been doing this a long time.

Speaker 1 So it is a bit of a minefield but um but it's worth it's worth pursuing so what would you say are the the main things to look out for if you are looking at working with somebody what would you recommend people do their due diligence around yeah i mean like with anything do your research and look at the reviews look at the testimonials if they you know hopefully they should have some testimonials and certainly i mean i was looking at um working with someone a little while ago and my friend said well you know reach out to someone who's left a review and I was like oh she was like well why not you know if that person is honourable if that person is bona fide and is you know works with integrity they won't mind you reaching out to

Speaker 1 you know past clients and say what was it like to work with that person don't be afraid to ask those questions and to really

Speaker 1 think about who you're working with. And the other the other thing is it's like any kind of mentor.
Not everyone will be right for you.

Speaker 1 You know, certain mentors and publishers will have expertise in different areas.

Speaker 1 Some mentors will only work with specific genres, some publishers might only publish certain types of books, some people, you know, you'll kind of have a conversation with, and you'll think, we just don't gel.

Speaker 1 Other people you might talk with, and you think, yeah, do you know what? I'll get on really great with this person. So, I think it's just go with your gut, but do your due diligence.

Speaker 1 And if, if you kind of feel, if at any point your gut's telling you this feels a bit weird, then trust it. Because if they're

Speaker 1 overly pricey, there's a lot of people out there.

Speaker 1 And also if they're overly cheap, you know, there's some people who have said to me, oh, I've worked with this publisher and they were doing all of this for $200. And I'm like.

Speaker 1 really that's that's why you didn't because it's just not possible you know if the job is going to be done well it's a lot of hours of work you know the editing takes a long time getting the product you know we've talked about that a lot today you know getting the cover right right getting the formatting right getting you know it's a lot of hours of work so you know kind of think about that it's not going to be super cheap but it also shouldn't mean you have to remortgage your house either

Speaker 1 that's a great problem

Speaker 1 you know if they want to get in touch with you if they want to find out more or just you know pick your brains or sense check anything where's the best place to find you Oh, well, thank you for that.

Speaker 1 I mean, I am always happy to help. Can I just say that? Whether we work together or not, I struggled so hard to find information.
And I have to say, I almost gave up on book nine.

Speaker 1 I'd got to nine books and I almost thought I can't do this anymore. Met someone who was amazing.

Speaker 1 She gave me so much help and support and kind of reignited my fire and put a little bit of my faith back into the whole process. So I tried to be the person I needed when I started out.

Speaker 1 So don't feel like you can't reach out. If you think I've got a load of questions, I don't know if I'm ready for a mentor yet or whatever.
it's fine.

Speaker 1 I'm always happy to help because I feel that's important. Um, and Karen at Mabelandstanleypublishing.com, that's the best way to get hold of me.

Speaker 1 Just drop me an email, um, and I'm more than happy to have a call or a chat, and I'll answer as many questions as is humanly possible. Oh, thank you, Karen.

Speaker 1 So, I'll put those in the show notes for people so that they can find you. Um, but yeah, thank you so much for your time.
It's really, really nice to chat with you and get all that information.

Speaker 1 Thank you, thank you. It's been great to be here.
Thank you. That's it from me, guys, this week.
I look forward to speaking to you again on a solo episode next week. Bye for now.