Balancing Business & Motherhood: Challenges and Solutions

Speaker 1 Hello, everybody, and welcome to today's UCAN podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Jolly Jarvis, and today I am joined by Grace Carter.

Speaker 1 I'm going to be talking all around the trials and tribulations of running your own business whilst having children and those challenges that come up, particularly this time of year, being some holidays, but also the sort of longer term and the view on childcare.

Speaker 1 So, I'm going to pass over to Grace, who's going to introduce herself. Julie.

Speaker 2 Hello, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 I am the founder and managing director of the Metamorphos Group, which encompasses, as I actually counted up today, 18 brands.

Speaker 2 Until now, I've just known it's got a lot, but I didn't actually ever stop and like count them because it regularly changes. So,

Speaker 2 yeah, 18 brands underneath it, which range from e-commerce sites to community projects to social impact causes to

Speaker 2 service-led businesses, like you name it, there's a brand under it that does something that you can think of.

Speaker 2 But all of them are built around three pillars, which is about solving problems with mental health, social equity or inequity, whichever way you look at it, and then entrepreneurship. So

Speaker 2 one of the brands underneath the group is the business that I've had the longest, which is Afra, which I've had for seven years, which is a branding campaign agency.

Speaker 2 So the branding campaign agency is effectively has developed and built all of those brands that sit underneath the group.

Speaker 1 Nice. And so I first came across you on LinkedIn where you tend to hang out the most, I think.
And yes, maybe too much.

Speaker 1 Never too much. And,

Speaker 1 you know, you were talking around, you know, you were sharing the realities of running a business or running multiple businesses at the same time as having children.

Speaker 1 You've got a child, one who's five and another one who's like less than a year. So you're in the kind of real thick of it, nine months.
So you're in the real thick of it right now.

Speaker 1 And so that post was around the kind of realities of balancing it. Tell us a little bit about, you know, like your take on this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, at the moment, I've actually got a campaign running that is aiming to lobby government around the lack of support in place for female business owners who have children

Speaker 2 for the fact that it's there's not the infrastructure isn't there for it. It's been built for male entrepreneurs.
And

Speaker 2 yeah, you know what I'm talking about. You've been there as a mother.

Speaker 1 I think

Speaker 2 anyone that you know has gone through it definitely knows knows what I'm talking about. But the thing is, is that

Speaker 2 I think that, I mean, what I was finding, the thing that was like, sort of drove me doing this campaign was that I'd had my eldest daughter five years ago. It was a very different climate back then.

Speaker 2 And it was almost like you just take the situation as it is and you just put up with it and it is what it is.

Speaker 2 And I think the second time around, five years later, I was older, why is a bit more confident?

Speaker 2 And I just thought, why am I putting up with this? Like, why am I accepting of this situation? It's not okay. And I'm not alone in this.

Speaker 2 And I realised that, you know, if you're employed, although, you know, which is where a lot of the conversation currently sits around the topic of maternity and supporting women, you know, although there's a lot of work that still needs to be done in that space and we're making some progress, it's even further back in terms of people who are self-employed and particularly women.

Speaker 2 And, you know, they are open to discrimination, they're open to

Speaker 2 effectively financial hardship.

Speaker 2 And I think that has been my experience in terms of trying to balance the two: is that I feel like the only reason I'm still sat here doing both is out of sheer stubbornness and,

Speaker 2 you know, refusing to fail or give up, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 2 But the dropout rate for women who decide to pursue entrepreneurial ventures is very high and is cited as being connected to childcare duties, even though that's generally why they've gone into

Speaker 2 entrepreneurship in the first place. And I just felt like, you know, I felt like something needed to happen.

Speaker 2 And also, I was getting so many people messaging me, you know, saying like, oh, what you're doing is really inspiring. You know, should I go into entrepreneurship?

Speaker 2 And I felt like I needed to tell the truth that, yes, it's an amazing thing in some respects, but also this has not been a particularly enjoyable experience in other respects.

Speaker 2 And I felt like I would be disingenuous if I didn't actually tell the truth of what it's really like.

Speaker 2 So for me, the Business and Babies campaign that we're running is about changing it for the next generation, hopefully also for our generation, but you know, ensuring that the girls and young women and people who are coming into entrepreneurship in the future don't have to go through what we've gone through.

Speaker 2 Because yeah, it's been very, very tough.

Speaker 1 And the thing is, is that stubbornness and that, you know, I refuse to give in, you know, that comes at, there's only so much you can do.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, the impact that that can have on you from a mental point of view from a you know from a physical from getting enough rest it is just

Speaker 1 there's a price to be paid isn't there and that's the thing is is it's a price that we pay that you know as as active as guys are that there is not the same level of expectation or mental load on them that there is on on on women when we choose to have children

Speaker 2 Yeah, 100%. I am very open about the impact it's had on me.

Speaker 2 I had a mental health breakdown at the start start of the year as a result of having my daughter and the implications and the stresses that running the business had at that time.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm on antidepressants daily and I am glad I am. They've made a massive difference to how I feel.

Speaker 2 Although there is quite a large stigma around medicating with

Speaker 2 depression and with mental health.

Speaker 2 But at the same time, I've tried to reduce that stigma by talking about it because I also don't want people to look at what I'm doing and be like, oh, look, she's got, you know, she's super successful.

Speaker 2 She's got this business with 18 brands and she's doing all these campaigns. And like, oh, doesn't she look like she's got this idyllic life?

Speaker 2 You know, I don't want anyone to ever look at that and think that I'm somehow like I've got it all sorted because I absolutely don't.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I put up a post the other week about the fact that I think I probably drink too much alcohol. In fact, I don't think it.
I know I drink too much alcohol.

Speaker 2 But it's like, it's my way of coping with things.

Speaker 2 And I think what I found, and I sort of acknowledged this earlier today, actually, when I was talking to someone, was that I give so much of my time to everyone else, whether that's being a mum, a business owner, being a boss, being, you know, for clients, for my husband, whoever it is.

Speaker 2 And the person who is left with the least left is me. You know, I don't look after me at all.
So I think that that it's knowing like the penalty in all of this is myself.

Speaker 2 And I do kind of keep saying to myself, like, I am going to have to change this at some point because if I don't, am I actually going to be alive to see the benefits of all my hard work you know it's like it feels like it is such an extreme feeling but you know I feel like that's where I've got to where it's like I need to start looking after myself but like you say there is so much pressure and the world is not set up to support dual you know parents families where both parents are at working

Speaker 2 my husband works very long hours in London leaves at 5 a.m. back at 5 p.m.
obviously I'm trying to navigate running the business it's like it's so much stress and pressure.

Speaker 2 And I think it's how do you, how do you navigate that when you've got school

Speaker 2 schools closing at 3 p.m., you know, and pickup needs to be done and you need to get into school in the mornings.

Speaker 2 And the school holidays, which we've now currently got of six weeks, you know, that don't, the amount of school holidays don't line up with the amount of working days.

Speaker 2 So I think there's so many things that complicate it for us. And obviously, it affects dads too.
But like you say, it's just not. the same as what women go through.

Speaker 1 No, and I think, you know, in that, I think there is an element of responsibility for ourselves because what you were saying around that supporting nature and the self-sacrificing, and it's like, it's almost like, it's almost like a switch, you know, like when you, when you have kids, you go from it being about

Speaker 1 before it was about you and maybe it's your hobbies and interests and things like that.

Speaker 1 You had responsibilities, but it's so different, whereas all of a sudden it becomes all about, it becomes all about everyone else. You just become like a facilitator.

Speaker 1 And, you know, it is easier to chip away at the focus on yourself and the supporting yourself than it is to do any of the other bits because everything else doesn't look like you can compromise.

Speaker 1 Where the only thing that looks like there's an okay compromise

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 on things for yourself. But you know, the thing is, is that people can say, and there is the thing of like, well, why are we doing this to ourselves?

Speaker 1 You know, like, if it is this much of a toll, what's your thought process on that? Have you had people say that or not?

Speaker 2 I don't know if anyone's overtly said it to me. I think possibly because they know I'd probably like eat their head off if I

Speaker 1 was given a chance.

Speaker 2 I was given a chance to tell them my thoughts on it. They're probably too scared to say it.
But I think that,

Speaker 2 I mean, it was in my marriage, it was never a question of whether or not I was going to do both. You know, like my husband always knew that my career was a massive part of my identity.

Speaker 2 So when it came to having children, he knew I wasn't ever going to pursue the traditional like maternity leave approach. And, you know, work was going to be a big part of my life.

Speaker 2 I think that,

Speaker 2 tell me the question again.

Speaker 1 So, why do we do this to ourselves?

Speaker 1 What keeps you doing the business side of stuff as well? Because for me,

Speaker 1 with identity, that's what, like, that for me, that's why I do what I do. Is as I didn't want to, I had people say to me, you are going to give up work, aren't you?

Speaker 1 And I went, I was in corporate, so before I had the kids, I didn't have my own business. I start, I'm one of that 76% who sets up a business to be able to facilitate it around their children.

Speaker 1 And then during summer holidays, you're thinking, how, how am I facilitating all this?

Speaker 1 But it is, it is very much around, like, for me, it was about I'd spent a lot of money upskilling myself, getting a degree, having all that experience. It was like, I've worked really hard for this.

Speaker 1 And the thought of just then parking it, it was just, it just didn't, it just didn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 doesn't make any sense yes that that's what that was what was in my brain before it completely disappeared out of my brain so um yeah got babies to thank for that. So yes, that was my motivation.

Speaker 2 So when I was sort of mid-20s, before I had my children, so I was always very ambitious.

Speaker 2 And I did my undergrad degree and I got a first class in English and then I did a scholarship from Santander to do my master's degree and I got a distinction. I studied in Singapore.

Speaker 2 I worked at British Vogue. I was very much pursuing a career in academics.
And

Speaker 2 it kind of got to my mid-20s. And I was a bit like

Speaker 2 so what happens when I have kids like am I meant to just stop like am I meant to just you know all this knowledge that I've accumulated like am I meant to just not do anything with it and I thought why have I spent so many years grafting to be this intelligent you know articulate person and skilled in what I do to then just stop so I think I became quite aware in my 20s about what I was what was expected of me um and I and I knew it wasn't something that I wanted to do and I think

Speaker 2 you know I've got young nieces so initially it was very much I knew I was inspiring and empowering or motivating them in how they were behaving and then I've gone on to have two daughters and I think for me what I wanted was and I knew even before I had my daughters that I didn't ever want my children to turn around to me when they were older and say mummy I've you know I've got this dream to run a business or I've got this idea for a product or whatever it might be and me to be like oh yeah you can do anything you want to do kids like off you go, like, you can be anything.

Speaker 2 And then them just to have that moment where they look at me and go, Well, why didn't you do it? Like, I wanted to show them through my actions rather than just telling them you can be anything.

Speaker 2 I wanted to show them with my actions, you can be anything, like, because I've done it. Like, go look what I've achieved.

Speaker 2 And I think that, you know, particularly with having daughters, has really fueled me with balancing the business and children.

Speaker 2 I really don't want them to be defined by being a mother to the point that they lose their career identity.

Speaker 2 So I want them to see that, yes, mummy has done both and they will also probably have their opinions on whether that was a good thing or not and if I did it well but you know they will they will grow up they'll grow up knowing at least it's possible to some extent.

Speaker 2 And I think that's the main thing for me is seeing is believing and you have to have role models that represent what you're trying to do.

Speaker 2 And, you know, for me, coming into having a business and having children, there was no role models I didn't know who to be or how to behave or what to say or what to do and there were so many questions I had and I felt so insecure and I made some bad decisions as a result so I hope in that that you know yes okay I'm having to put myself through a lot that I don't want to but I'm hoping in doing so I can change it for other people to make it easier and also inspire them to then want to go into it too Yeah, I think I totally agree with you because there is that, you know, when you've seen that route, you can then navigate that.

Speaker 1 You know, you can tweak that person and think, well, okay, I'll do this differently or that differently in the workplace and business is changing all the time.

Speaker 1 But it is that idea that I'm very much like you. My eldest is a girl and I didn't want her to think that, you know, that she

Speaker 1 couldn't do whatever she wanted to do, or that actually we're going to spend all this time and money investing in our knowledge and our abilities and then for just to be parked because we have children.

Speaker 1 And, you know, that is a very clear signal that I am pausing my own personal development to develop someone else. And that is not what our male counterparts are doing.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, it doesn't seem right. I think I read, I don't even know where I saw it the other day, but it was a few weeks ago now.

Speaker 1 I saw something where they were saying that it's not, the challenge is, is that we're raising girls to be.

Speaker 1 to be different and to expect more, but we're not raising boys who are able to support and live with somebody like that.

Speaker 1 And I think that's where there is also that balance because we, as women, we do have that propensity to

Speaker 1 be that person who's supporting and taking on those roles and self-sacrificing. And

Speaker 1 it is a partnership and it's more of a partnership than it has been historically, which, you know, we are moving in the right direction. But there is still all that social stuff.

Speaker 1 Like, I met somebody, it was a few weeks ago now, I was out riding and on a Saturday morning and this lady said, oh, she was like, oh, you've got kids.

Speaker 1 and she went oh is your husband looking after them for you

Speaker 1 yeah he's looking after his own children and when she said it she realized what she'd said and she was like oh yeah but it's like you know there is this whole thing still of oh isn't he good that he's he's doing his part

Speaker 2 I mean I've I'm very fortunate I say I'm very fortunate. I think there's been an element of moulding, shall we say, over the last 15 years.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 he said that.

Speaker 1 So, what's it?

Speaker 2 My sort of creation, I don't know, is it?

Speaker 2 I'm very fortunate. My husband grew up with very strong female influences in his life.
You know, he had sisters, mum, aunties, like all female cousins.

Speaker 2 He was very, very aware of girls, I guess, and what women are like.

Speaker 2 But he, and he was a chef before he became a business director. And so he cooks all of our meals every night.
He's always been very hands-on as a dad.

Speaker 2 Like, he, regardless of the fact he's out at five in the morning, morning, you know, he would do bottles with me in the night. He is there for all of the school things.
Like, very, very fortunate.

Speaker 2 And I, I mean, to be honest, I wouldn't have it, I wouldn't be with someone that wasn't like that.

Speaker 2 You know, we've always shared all of our money, regardless of who's earning what. Whereas I've had friends who talked about being on maternity leave and being given an allowance by their partner.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, well, why would you get an allowance? Like, how much would they pay for childcare if you were having to pay for that?

Speaker 2 Like, you're doing a job for them, you're saving them money like why would you not treat them that way so i yeah i've definitely been very very lucky to have such a great support and i yeah i mean quite frankly i'm very firm in my boundaries of people and so i would not be with someone that wasn't willing to meet me halfway um i still think there's times where he has things he could learn as as do we all as humans um but you know i think it was like yesterday i had this really interesting chat with my daughter because he'd cooked this beautiful salad It was like very fancy.

Speaker 2 And I said to her, you know that this isn't normal. And she's like, huh? I'm like, you know, not like most daddies don't cook dinner at all, let alone cook this lovely, beautiful food for you.

Speaker 2 And like to her, it's just, that's just how it is. Like, she made a comment once.
We were talking about where's, like, what's our favorite place in the house?

Speaker 2 And she said, daddy loves to be in the kitchen. Like, daddy's place is in the kitchen, which I thought was really interesting because they always say that's where women apparently go.

Speaker 2 And she knows, you know, yeah, she knows that mummy can't cook and mummy doesn't cook and she'll she'll still say that i'm the best cook and i'm like i'll take that but i don't do it um

Speaker 2 but yeah and i think it's i think it's really interesting because i do sort of think for her growing up when she comes to the point of meeting her partner whoever that might be that unless they have been brought up to be like how her dad is I don't think they'll meet her standards.

Speaker 2 You know, I think she's she's been told you can be all of these things.

Speaker 2 And I think this was, I actually struggled a lot with this with some of my family when I first made the decision to work with my child. Was it was very much like,

Speaker 2 this isn't the done thing. Why would you do this? And I was like, well, what would you expect of me?

Speaker 2 If I've gone and done all of these things in my career, why wouldn't I now do this as the next step?

Speaker 2 And I think what we've done, particularly with our generation, is we've said to young girls, as you know, as we've been teenagers and growing up, with a generation of you can be it all, you can do it all.

Speaker 2 Like, if you want to be an entrepreneur, you you want to go to university, like the world is your oyster, which is fantastic as progress, you know, progressive mindset.

Speaker 2 But what it's done as a barrier is we've not then created the infrastructure or the support to actually enable it.

Speaker 2 So, all we've actually done is said, you can do all these things, but you still also have to do all the other things that were expected of you. So, now you've just got double the workload.

Speaker 2 Aren't you so empowered? And it's like, no, no, I'm not.

Speaker 1 And I, that, that is the thing: is like, you know, my sort of ethos is that the whole you can. And it's like, you know, you can have it all, but you have to be aware of what all is for you.

Speaker 1 And also the sacrifices you may have to make for the all is, yeah, you can focus on that, but you can't, it's, it's like birthday lists. One of my kids has got a very long birthday list.

Speaker 1 And it's like, you know, you can have anything, but you can't have everything.

Speaker 1 And I think that's the thing is, is, and it's understanding that, yeah, you know, we are kind of dangling that fruit going, you can do whatever you want. You can have this, you can have that.

Speaker 1 You can, you know, really give the guys a run for their money, but then, oh, yeah, when you have kids, that's that's a bit different. And it's like that whole pressing the pause button is

Speaker 1 not acceptable.

Speaker 1 And also, from an economy point of view, there's so many stats out there with actually the missing, you know, revenue that isn't being generated because women aren't in those roles and they're not performing in their businesses like they could be.

Speaker 1 So, what's your, you know, what you've put together, what are you aiming to achieve with that?

Speaker 2 So, the business and babies campaign is kind of multifaceted in what we're trying to achieve.

Speaker 2 At the moment, we've got a survey out, we've got a few surveys depending on your situation, but in general, it's a survey to try and gather data to understand the situation.

Speaker 2 So, there's various reports and reviews that have been done over the years about female entrepreneurship. Quite a lot of them are now

Speaker 2 what I'd class as out of date,

Speaker 2 but also they've a lot of them have been much more broad. So, it's been like one part of their research rather than like the sole focus of it.

Speaker 2 And they've not really sort of delved into the specifics. It's been a lot more top-level information.

Speaker 2 So I'm hoping to try and get some data to actually show the situation and show where we're at currently.

Speaker 2 Also is just to create a community of women who have got children and are running businesses, which, you know, there are many communities now being developed out there for female entrepreneurs, which is awesome.

Speaker 2 But I find a lot of those are looking at things like,

Speaker 2 you know, from an investment point of view or how to get funding, or how to just be a founder in general.

Speaker 2 And for me, this is very much about focusing on that aspect of balancing the business with family. So it's about trying to get that community.

Speaker 2 So if you are going on maternity leave, I say that, you know, like if you really get it, but if you are planning on having it, then you know, at least you could reach out to people and say, like, oh, what, you know, what top tips do you have for how to navigate this?

Speaker 2 Like, how did you handle telling your team you're pregnant? Like all those kind of like practical things you need someone to talk to about and you don't know who to go to.

Speaker 2 So that's kind of one aspect is just getting that community together

Speaker 2 and sharing stories as well, like putting human voices and faces to these stories so people can see what women are going through so we can actually raise that profile of the problem.

Speaker 2 And then my hope long term is to enact governmental change. So Labour seems to be making noises that would imply that this would be something favourable to them.

Speaker 2 So as a starting point, they've put out some commentary that they're interested in looking at um at the moment self-employed people are not protected by the equality act um which would prevent them from being discriminated against and labor has recognized that self-employed people need to be protected in the same way as employed people which sounds very obvious but until now has not been the case so

Speaker 2 pizza nuts um so yeah so i my hope is to enact governmental change and

Speaker 2 what that looks like i think is very multifaceted so you know there's there's so many parts in terms of having a child So, for me, I went through a very traumatic and complex fertility journey.

Speaker 2 I had miscarriages that required stays in hospital. They had huge mental health implications that had a knock-on effect on my business.

Speaker 2 You know, obviously, all the hormones that are going through your body as a result of all those things, particularly if you then go down the IVF route and all of the impact that can have on your, I mean, I didn't do that, but you know, the impact it can have on your time in the business.

Speaker 2 You know, I think this, I think we, women are very, very specifically and directly affected by conception in a way that that men aren't. So we need to think about like what support can be in place.

Speaker 2 You know, when I was immediately, I had, I ended up having a hemorrhage in one of my miscarriages, actually both, but the second one, I ended up in recess and I was, you know, I was completely out for a week.

Speaker 2 That's a week where my business has suddenly not got their lead revenue earner in the business. And yet I still have to pay my bills.
I've still got all my counsel rates that I've got to pay.

Speaker 2 I've still got all of my tax bills that need paying. So there's an element of like, how do we support women when they're trying to conceive?

Speaker 2 Then when they are pregnant, obviously, there's all of the worries of them, what do I now do?

Speaker 2 When I was pregnant, I ended up under the perinatal mental health team because I had all the fertility issues and losses. And

Speaker 2 I spoke to someone who was an NHS nurse, like mental health nurse, and she was effectively trying to understand the situation and where I was struggling. And she turned around to me and said,

Speaker 2 well, if you're clever enough to figure out how I've got a child knocking on the door,

Speaker 2 and business and babies, you literally have both.

Speaker 2 That's it. It's kind of funny because we're renovating where we are.
I've taken the handle off the door, so she can't actually get in.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it doesn't stop her knocking though.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 2 anyway, so back to back to my plan. Um, so yeah, so with the um

Speaker 1 with the nurse that's teaching, yeah, the nurse said to me, you're smart enough. Yeah.

Speaker 2 If you're clever enough and intelligent enough to create your own business, you're intelligent enough to figure out how to have maternity leave. And I was like, no, that's not how it works.

Speaker 2 And then she said to me, well, I don't understand why can't you live off your husband's wage?

Speaker 2 And I was like, because my bill for my business every month is far significant to my husband's wage for starters. But secondly, why would I need to? Like, why should I have to?

Speaker 2 And it felt like the supporting case to me was a bit like, why are you doing this? Like, you don't need to do this. I'm like judging you.

Speaker 1 You're not helpful.

Speaker 2 It was like, clearly, yeah, it was like, clearly, you can figure this out. Like, clearly, you're clever enough.
And I just felt like it was so patronizing.

Speaker 2 And there was no, you know, I'm there saying, like, I'm really struggling with my mental health.

Speaker 2 And the answer was not like, oh, well, let's champion you to keep you doing what you're doing because it's amazing. And go, you.
It was like, oh, well, quit.

Speaker 2 So for me, it's like, how do we continue to support those people through their pregnancy so they don't feel like they have to quit?

Speaker 2 And then obviously obviously, postpartum. So, at the moment, you are entitled to maternity allowance or maternity pay if you've worked a certain number of weeks.

Speaker 2 The amount that you're entitled to, whether you're employed or self-employed, is below the living minimum wage. It is, you'd actually earn,

Speaker 2 I don't know if earn is the right word, but you'd get double if you were on benefits

Speaker 2 or up to double. So, it's like so, so, so abysmal, it's unreal.
Um, but the the

Speaker 2 the system that has been created to allow you to have that if you're self-employed requires you to not work in your business for the entire duration that you're taking it so you you know you ask any business owner can you go out of your business and do nothing for six to nine months the answer is no so if you want to stay on the right side of the law then you can't take any money so immediately you are at zero in terms of financial support But you've also got the impact of having had a child.

Speaker 2 And that, again, you've got, you know, one of the key financial breadwinners of the company is not able to work legally. You're not allowed to work for two weeks after having a child.

Speaker 2 So, again, it's like, what support is there in that place? Because my bills are not stopping, you know. And I,

Speaker 2 this time around, I thought, oh, maybe I can take some level of maternity leave. I've got a team, they can all take control.
Like, actually, I felt like I would be okay.

Speaker 2 But the day that I was giving birth, I had a cesarean, planned cesarean. Um, I had uh, we lost a contract that we really needed to win, like a pitcher we really needed needed to win.

Speaker 2 We lost a contract that was, it was a 12-month contract and they pulled the plug at six months because they had cash flow issues, which you can't really argue with that, but it's money gone from my, you know, money too.

Speaker 2 We had, um,

Speaker 2 I had a client who'd left me with a very, very substantial amount of money unpaid on his bill, even though he was using all the work we'd done.

Speaker 2 He decided he just wasn't going to pay, so I had to then pursue legal action against him.

Speaker 2 And one of my team was part-time and she needed a full-time job, so she handed her notice in the day that I was giving birth. Like this is all the day that I was giving birth.

Speaker 2 So like, and then I was having a blood transfusion afterwards. And I'm like going through my phone, which I swore I wasn't going to look at.
Like, what do I do? And I was so stressed.

Speaker 2 And I remember just feeling so overwhelmed, thinking like, I've just had a baby. I really, really just want to be thinking about my baby, but I cannot switch my brain off.
And I have no,

Speaker 2 you know, I don't have any, I've got some, you know, the team I've got are fantastic, but not necessarily able to deal with such serious issues. So it was like, it was on me.

Speaker 2 And suddenly I'm like, well, I'm meant to be having maternity leave and I'm, you know, not allowed to work, but then I need to work. And it just felt ridiculous.

Speaker 2 And I was like, so then you're, it's adding even more stress and mental pressure onto me.

Speaker 2 And, you know, what would have been fantastic is if I could have just had something or someone that could have helped me, even just having a community of women to be like, what do I do?

Speaker 2 And I think, so I think there's, I think there's so many implications in terms of what could be done financially, grant funding, you know, tax breaks, tax relief.

Speaker 2 So there's all of that postpartum part. And then if that wasn't enough in terms of lack of support, you then also have what happens once you've got your child and you need childcare.

Speaker 2 So obviously we know that we're not particularly great as a country in terms of childcare. But

Speaker 2 what I find particularly crazy is that if you run a business, you can hire any number of people into your business.

Speaker 2 You can have a chauffeur, you can have a cleaner, but you cannot have a childcare paid through your business and you can expense so many things golf days football days

Speaker 2 like dinners travel you name it but you cannot expense your childcare even though you are only getting that childcare to attend said golf day football day etc um and someone pointed out to me the other day that they can expense a flight to go to say a conference or an event for their work but they can't expense their child who has to go with them because they are potentially the main childcare person for that child.

Speaker 2 So it's like, why?

Speaker 2 And the only plausible reason I can have is that whoever created this rule was a man who had someone at home and therefore it never occurred to him that we might need childcare and we might need to cover this cost.

Speaker 2 So instead of being able to run it through my business, I'm instead having to pay my corporation tax on my profit. Then Then I'm having to pay myself my

Speaker 2 PIYE tax to take the money out of the business as my own personal money. So that's two amounts of tax I've then paid on that money.

Speaker 2 Then I'm having to pay that money out of my personal money where I am then paying the self-employed, that's the PIY tax of my nanny, who we are very fortunate to have.

Speaker 2 But that's three times I've paid tax on that money. So I'm being penalized three times to have childcare so I can contribute to the economy and create jobs and support people.

Speaker 2 And I'm just like, it doesn't make sense to me. So

Speaker 2 there's like an absolute myriad of problems. And it's like, where do we even begin?

Speaker 2 But I think part of it is that it's just raising awareness because so much of the conversation has not centered around self-employed women or business owners.

Speaker 2 And I think we just, I don't think people realize just how bad it is.

Speaker 2 And possibly because there's so few female business owners compared to male business owners, it's just not been, you know, we're almost like, oh, we're so lucky to have flexible working.

Speaker 2 We'll just take whatever because we're, you know, we're so lucky we can be around in the summer holidays. And it's like, yeah, but that's not good enough.

Speaker 2 Like, how many women are now struggling and burnt out because they're trying to do both and they can't do both? So it's just

Speaker 1 the data on business performance. If you were to look at people's business performance over that period, like, yes, okay, you can argue that people are away anyway.

Speaker 1 So businesses tend to see a dip, but it's like that individual, it's the knock-on effect of not them being present, not doing their organic marketing, not having things in place.

Speaker 1 And you could be like, Well, okay, you need to be more organized, but it's that position of always firefighting. And I think that's the problem is that these people are never given a break.

Speaker 1 And I think you know, your, you know, even the conversation over having that sense of community and those people who have been there, it can get really, really lonely.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm surrounded by people who are business owners, but then people who are business owners in that position. I don't have any clients who are currently having a baby.

Speaker 1 I've got people who have got children, and that, like, mine's one of the youngest out of the people that I'm around, as my youngest is.

Speaker 2 Because I think there is that, and it's like, well, so where are people going?

Speaker 1 Who's getting the support? What's happening to people during that period of time? And, you know, that is

Speaker 1 a very difficult thing to both plan for

Speaker 1 and also to manage in the longer term and balance.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so I mean, for me, the impact of all of it in terms of what, you know, if we don't support people, what's going to happen is we're just going to create a mental health epidemic, which is already, we already know, it's becoming worse as a situation.

Speaker 2 So, one of the brands that I've actually created is called Compassion Club. We're launching it officially in the next few weeks.

Speaker 2 And it's compassion-focused therapy. It's something that I did after I had my second daughter as part of the mental health treatment that I got.

Speaker 2 It was something they were almost like trialling as part of the Essex

Speaker 2 service, like it was being done by the university. Um, and I think they were trying to prove through doing it and getting our feedback that it worked in order to get more funding for it.

Speaker 2 But it was, it was initially, I was a bit like, I can do compassion, like that's easy. Like, I've spent my life being compassionate to everyone else.

Speaker 2 Why do I need to go and sit in a group and talk about being compassionate? And I was really dismissive of it at first when it was suggested to me.

Speaker 2 And the idea of group therapy, I was like, oh, no, I don't want to talk to everyone else about my problems.

Speaker 2 But it was, I did it, and it was really really helpful and it was all about reducing that inner self-critic and being kinder to yourself and how do you you know when you feel that burnout like how are you supporting yourself and giving yourself that self-care and prioritizing yourself and when I got to the end of the course I just thought I need to roll this out as far and wide as I can and there was nothing like it on the market obviously you know headspace and all of the different more generalized things but there was nothing targeting women and supporting women through this experience so we've just um been recording the episodes in the last week, and I basically created each of the 10 videos per series, and I've created it around the different life events women will go through.

Speaker 2 So, we're starting with parenting in general.

Speaker 2 So, we've got conception, we've got pregnancy, postpartum, we've got birth trauma, which is another big issue for a lot of women after they've had children.

Speaker 2 We're looking at IVF, adoption.

Speaker 2 So, all of the different parenting, just how to support women through these parts of of their life.

Speaker 2 Because it goes back to my mission about helping women become entrepreneurs in that if we don't tackle the mental health challenges that are being created, how do we then expect them to go into entrepreneurship and to thrive when they're struggling so much?

Speaker 2 So, you know, the businesses and brands I'm creating are deliberately trying to solve this problem alongside all of the campaigns we're running.

Speaker 2 Because I think we have to be very holistic about this. You know, we have to look at all different aspects of being a woman and the support we need.

Speaker 2 And like you said, I mean, for me, the six weeks holidays, I'm actually very fortunate that we have a nanny because I actually find the six weeks holidays easier than any other time of the year because I'm not having to worry about getting her ready for school.

Speaker 2 I'm not having to worry about, you know, has she got the right uniform? Has she got the right dressing up outfit? Has she got the money she needs? Has she ever filled out the forms?

Speaker 2 Like everything goes a bit more quiet for me. And the worst issue I have, if it's an issue, is she's around more.
So I get knocks on the door when I'm trying to record things.

Speaker 2 but I also get to see her a lot more,

Speaker 1 brilliant,

Speaker 2 which is why I work from home more in the summer so I can be around them. But I, um,

Speaker 2 you know, I know for so many women, it's the reverse, and actually, this is the worst time because they suddenly are out of pocket.

Speaker 2 Um, you know, we're already paying our care for my youngest, so this is not any additional cost to us, you know, whereas a lot of people suddenly get hit with this bill of how do I cover six weeks' worth of care when I'm not used to paying out for that and it comes into the thousands.

Speaker 2 So, you you know, there's

Speaker 2 so many implications, I think, for working parents. And

Speaker 2 the other thing I would add to that is also it's not just about supporting working mums, but if we want true equality, we need to support working dads.

Speaker 2 Because, you know, my husband didn't get proper paternity leave. You know, two weeks is not long enough.

Speaker 2 That in itself can create mental health problems for new mums when they're not supported by their partners.

Speaker 2 The pay that men get is as bad as the pay that women get for their paternity leave and maternity.

Speaker 2 And it's not sustainable for men to just effectively lose like a huge chunk of their salary for half a month when you have a baby that costs loads of money.

Speaker 2 So I think the whole thing needs rethinking. And almost someone needs to look at the system and go, right, the world has changed.
The world has moved on dramatically since we created all of this.

Speaker 2 Like, we need a fresh way of looking at this.

Speaker 2 We need new ideas, new system, new setup that is actually going to champion and support parents to be their best selves and not just leave them tired and burnt out.

Speaker 1 That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Thank you so much for your time, Grace. It's been really good.
I could talk about this all day long. How do people get involved

Speaker 1 in your campaign?

Speaker 2 Yes, I mean, I could sit here for hours on my soapbox. So the website for business and babies is quite literally businessandbabies.co.uk.

Speaker 2 So if you head over to there, you can see the survey and fill all of that out and it will direct you to all of the different things that you can get involved in.

Speaker 2 If you want to learn more about me in general, then you can follow me on LinkedIn at Grace Carter. And I post very regularly there about all of the

Speaker 2 trials and tribulations of what we go through as working mums, but also

Speaker 2 share about the different work that we're doing and the campaigns we're running. So that's like the place to go for first-hand insight.

Speaker 2 And then if you more generally want to just have a snoop of the brands we've created and what we're doing, then you can head to metamorphosegroup.co.uk and it is all there for you to see.

Speaker 1 That is brilliant. Thank you so much, Grace, for your time.
It has been really good to talk through and understand where you're coming from it and the steps that you are taking.

Speaker 1 So that has been great. Thank you for joining me, guys, on this week's episode, and I look forward to speaking to you next time.

Speaker 1 If you've enjoyed this episode, then please do give it a review and please do follow us to hear more. That's it for me, guys.
Bye for now.