Why Are Some Women So Mean?

Hello and welcome to the UCAN podcast. I'm here today with Mandy Rees and she's going to introduce herself in just a moment.
We're going to be talking about feminine archetypes and why women are so mean to each other. And so Mandy, over to you, please share with us who you are.
Thank you very much, Sarah. So I'm Mandy Rees and I'm a feminine archetype strategist.
What that means is that I work with women, either individually or in group spaces, helping them identify and really connect with inner feminine archetypes, which is something that we all have. So we all have an inner masculine and an inner feminine.
But many, many women are operating from their masculine. we're not valuing or understanding our female gifts and that's where we're most authentic that's where our true success comes from so I help women to really connect with their feminine powers.
When such a male-dominated environment that some industries can be you know it's actually really helpful to kind of place your strengths isn't it it? Rather than try and mimic the masculine. Yeah, absolutely.
Because when we start to try to be like men, even though we have an inner masculine and feminine balance in most women, not all of us, our feminine is our true authentic self. So when we're operating from that male space, we're just copying other people, or we're following learned behaviours, things that that we've seen on television teachers we had at school and the male role models within our businesses so most of us who work in corporates it's still a very male dominated environment and that means that women are doing it inauthentically so we can lead to things like feeling anxious feeling stressed we.
We burn out. We don't set boundaries.

That kind of good girl really kicks in because we want to prove ourselves to everybody.

And it's just exhausting.

And we're not really happy to be operating from a place that isn't who we really are.

That makes a lot of sense.

So on that note, I'm talking about why are we so mean?

Why are we so mean?

How does this happen?

Gosh, I wish. Well, I'd love to have the answer.
Very rich, I think, if I had the answer to that. I think there's various reasons.
I think the biggest reason is that we just, we're unaware of it because we are living in a male-dominated society.'t about flashing the patriarchy because you know we've spoken about before it's not the men necessarily the men who are leading now it's just a consequence of the last 2000 years when the west has been very male dominated so we just learn at school to compete with each other okay um girls quite frankly bitch about each other don't they the way we look the things we do who got the boyfriend who didn't who was successful at school I think lots of our female role models to be successful in their time had to be very aggressive very masculine if you look at things like I used to watch Dallas and Dynasty in the 80s when you know Alexis and Crystal would fight in their shoulder pads you know women attacked each other on TV so we saw this very competitive environment there were always films weren't they you know again they show my age in Grange Hill there would be girls fighting other, attacking each other. So we just take this on subliminally that if I'm going to be successful, it has to be at the expense of her.
It can't be alongside her. So one, there's that whole cultural piece, kind of we just absorb it.
We just think it's normalized. And until someone says to us, it doesn't have to to be that way or actually do you want it to be that way we don't realize but then there's also individual learning so you know my mom isn't a woman's woman she doesn't have female friendship she doesn't really respect or honor other women so I didn't grow up in an environment where I saw women dropping by the house and my mom confiding in them and having conversations I think that's my individual experience but also as a society we've lost that local community haven't they where front doors are open and women would just drop in yeah and that's true where my nanny and granddad lived they knew all their neighbors and lady from over the road would drop by, Doris from around the road would drop by.
So women just saw other women as support networks and friendship and we've lost that. So there's lots of different reasons why we're mean to each other.
But my personal view is the biggest one is, it's just, it's self-preservation really'm if I'm not mean to you, you might be mean to me. Right.
And that's why we find it really hard to let other women in to our lives. And there's a lot of mistrust.
You know, I was like a self-preservation, like a self-defense, isn't it? It's like, yeah. So you've got your guard up rather than kind of opening yourself up for that experience you're straight away putting that up so that it never happens in the first place you're not positioning yourself as as weaker or allowing someone to do that yeah and you might have actually had an experience as a teenager where other girls were really horrible to you.
We all have, haven't we? Yeah.

Like, kids are mean yeah I mean I was they are I was I have a a kind of a workshop called ditch the bitch which is like a mindfulness kind of I guess a kind of healing workshop where I ask people to share experiences they've had around this and I was at a networking event a few weeks ago there were 15 of us in the room and every single one of us just in the blink of an eye could recall a time when another woman or girl had been mean to us so this is a real thing that's really happening and you kind of stack up those memories don't you if more people more women are unpleasant to you than kind then in your mindset okay women are I don't trust women they're there to be feared and you go back to those memories it's harder to recall the good experiences absolutely so again we take that with us into adulthood we take that into us with with being mums as well so we have a real I guess duty to our children to help them realize that you know because my daughters have both been bullied by other girls but I work really hard now to say to them that's just that individual girl that's not womanhood yeah that's not all women that are like that individual woman but we know that the bully got a load of stuff going on with her yeah and and i think that's not all women that are like that individual woman. But we know that the bully has got a load of stuff going on with her.
Yeah. And I think that's the thing.
Yeah. And I think that's that that's where I like to kind of come from with everything is to kind of explain away.
Well, you know, you come from almost a place of empathy with it that what is happening to that person? And my daughter's experienced girl, she's just just mean I wouldn't go as far as as bullying but she is she struggles to be nice to anyone um and so my daughter you know they're all becoming the firing line for it but it's very interesting because other parents have been like actually this kind of creates a bit of a culture so that person's being mean that then it kind of opens up the floodgates for other people to think well I think this and although this is mean she's saying worse so and and I think that's where you can kind of create a culture of people being quite harsh to each other particularly girls um because you have that kind of precedent already set you've got a benchmark of well I'm not as bad as that um and then that's kind of where it goes isn't it yes and also it's sometimes safer to tuck yourself under the wings of the bully than to be the one that stands up against her yeah and then you learn you learn that behavior that actually to keep myself safe I'm just gonna tuck under the bully's wings it takes the courage as a young girl and a woman to stand up to the bully because you become her target there yeah which is why as a parent or as another woman if you see someone standing up against the bully you've really got to put your big girl pants on an ally with her yeah which I know is difficult yeah um and then hope that somebody is supporting the girl that's a woman that's that's being the bully for want of a better word so that she can resolve her issues as well as you say look at that with it from a place of empathy and and compassion um it doesn't mean you have to be a best friend and you'll probably never be her best friend or she'll be anywhere within your friendship circle but you don't you don't want to take her down either because she's got some stuff going on that's causing her to have to put herself in that position of power often I think at school you probably not so empowered at home that your position of power is in school yeah um and that's where you can be the queen of the roost at that point but it's really hard to stand up against someone who's being unkind but it will make you a really good human yeah if you do that and we women need more of us to be doing that no sorry i have to keep kicking the dog because he keeps on doing little snores. Be quiet.
He's a boy cat as well, but he's very much allied with the womanhood in this house. To be fair, he's outnumbered, isn't he? So is that what you would suggest then? You know, if you are in that situation where somebody is being mean, that they're, you know, not necessarily bullying in a work environment, but they're mean, is it to stand up against them? What, how can we change this? What can we do? I think it's really hard, because it depends where you are.
So the me that I am now would have the confidence to have a conversation with that woman. The me 20 years ago, working as a lawyer, when I was very much in my masculine, would have just wanted to fight with that woman, literally.
You know, I would have wanted to, I would have gone into competition mode yeah I would have gone into well you're not going to beat me kind of mode I think first of all we have a duty to ourselves to really ground ourselves in who we are yeah and where we're coming from you know not all of us are able to do that have had the time to do that. And we might be dealing with that situation with a difficult woman, I would, I would advocate gathering your tribe around you.
So gathering your women around you to counsel you and to have conversations with to help you get the confidence you need to have that conversation with that person. I think that's the best call know then it's going to HR isn't it if it's within an organization but often I found extending a hand of compassion to that woman they do break the barriers do come down because she's put a wall of protection up around her and I know this because that's what I this this was kind of how I used to operate don't let people in just in case they hurt me yeah um be strong and tough because if I show that I'm vulnerable people think I'm not so good at my

job you know very much I'm going to stay in my masculine because all the successful people in

this business above me are men so I've got to do it like they do it and this is not saying all men

are very aggressive but they tend to be more kind of down that strategic direct route than women

Thank you. got to do it like they do it and this is not saying all men are very aggressive but they tend to be more kind of down that strategic direct route than women it's ask her out for a coffee you connect with her how does she have family what are her drivers what are her motivators you try and start a proper flow of conversation not to become friends with her but to become a real true colleague with her so you can understand what's going on in her life a little bit so you know where she's coming from and then try and take her aggression and turn it into a place of understanding so that she knows that she's okay to be vulnerable in my business I've come to realize that the greatest transformations happen when people just let go a little bit and say, do you know what? Actually, I'm not doing as well as I look.
This is much harder than I thought it would be. Oh, gosh, someone's actually, you know, when you are someone asks you if you're OK and you're not, you just burst into tears.
It's a bit like that. Yeah.
So it's going to a woman who's being really mean and just kind of saying, what's going on? Are you all right? A lot of the of the time they're just not all right yeah they're just putting on a brave face and it's coming across as guarded yeah because they're trying to hold it together when you are trying to hold it together you are more detached because if you aren't detached then you are going to put yourself in that position where you know you're burst into tears or something else which you know there is that feeling of I can't do that I need to to look on it and I need to look like I know what I'm doing yeah and often you have a reputation to uphold don't you because you've created this persona of being tough in control no compromise you know always in the office when you need to be prioritizing work you might be completely falling apart inside burning out but the pressure to maintain this external image that you've created is huge and I think we have got that pressure you just can't drop your barriers no we have got that pressure as women as well we we do feel like we have to prove ourselves that bit more and particularly when you like step into phases of motherhood and things like that, people are looking for you to not, to, you know, to not have it together and not be able to cope. And, and so you feel that pressure even more.
Yeah. And motherhood's a really interesting time as well, because women do judge each other in motherhood as well.
Don't they judge? That's actually when we totally I mean but but again you know I've got mother circles and groups for mums and I used to do yoga classes and I've had postnatal depression so I know how hard it is it was the mum who turned up every week bang on time with her makeup on with her baby looking perfect that I worried about most the mum that came up half an hour through the class completely frazzled with puke down her shoulder she's probably doing fine because she's just coming as her true self it's like this is who I am yeah take me yeah this is this is what my life looks like right now whereas because I knew that's what I did with postnatal depression I covered it up by still looking presenting this image to the world externally um so it's the mum that looks most put together that is often the one that's struggling the most but again she's caught in that trap of I need everyone to think that I'm doing okay I can't let my barriers down I can't be open and vulnerable but as soon as you she soft a little bit, and you give her the opportunity to say what it's real, or another mum says, this is really hard, isn't it? And then she'll go, oh, gosh, yes, it is really hard, isn't it? And that's when it really changes. That's when it really shifted.
And that's, that's why we need women to start being kinder to each other so that we can do that. And a bit more honest, isn't it as well having those conversations it's having honest conversations over this is this is tricky I'm struggling with this um acknowledging so that people don't feel alone yeah but it all goes back round to we all feel like we're competing with each other for the top space there's loads of top space though there's plenty of spaces you know what before I had children I used to think that I used to say to people I'd be like you know you've got a perfectly normal person and give them a horse and they'll turn crazy and and all competitive and then I had children and I was like it's the same here too and it's like actually it's any time that you've got something that you really care about and you pride yourself in being good at or you pride yourself in trying your hardest or you've got you see value in being your best that you start this competitive I mean like I remember the conversations over breastfeeding and it was just and even now I see it on social media where people are like I just exclusively fed um you know breastfed until like they were like I don't know 20 and you're like how is that relevant to this conversation um but they feel the need to that that was their identity that was and you know and it is something to be proud of to be able to do something like that but it's it's amazing how enforced and put upon other people it is yeah because it's amazing because it's how hurtful that is to a woman who really wanted to breastfeed and couldn't yeah you know it's being aware that we all have our own experiences and our own journeys and also I think a lot of us women were kind of sold the you can have everything myth which is really I personally think you can have your version of everything but that's not everything because everything is going to kill you quite frankly because we still live in a society where women if you have children are the primary caregiver most of the time so we're still trying to do our job yeah but we've just got kids we just as well we're trying to find that balance aren't we and the juggles the juggles real yeah and actually I had a couple of episodes ago we had Amanda on and we were talking around you can have it all but it's your role it's your priorities and actually you can't necessarily have it all at the same time um you know sometimes things have to take a priority some stuff has to take a back seat that's a conversation I have with people so often with their businesses and it's like I had a chat with somebody this week who's got a lot going on personally and I was like do you need to have this business right now and it's like if you don't need to have this business right now just pause it just just shelve it and focus on what's actually important and and that's the thing is is it's constantly balancing reassessing re-juggling um where your priorities are isn't it yeah and that's why working with archetypes can be really helpful because different archetypes step in at different times but if you're not in touch with say for example that person may have needed to be more in touch with their mother archetype but to the extent that they themselves needed mothering rather than being driven by perhaps you know their queen archetype which is all about driving forward and success knowing when to pull back knowing that there is a time to step forward but also women are we're much harder on ourselves than men are as well we are unable to see how successful we are and celebrate our successes in the same way as men do yeah you know we like there's a study isn't there that you know if there's a promotion coming will say, well, I've got to be able to do 90% of this job before I can apply for the promotion.
And men will go, I'm doing about 50% of it. So it's fine.
You know, we just, we don't, we're not, we don't have that inner confidence, which I think comes from the fact that we've spent lots of our lives navigating other women, knocking us down or attacking us. Or as we become successful you get bitched about so we learn that success doesn't feel safe yeah so we pull back and we hide you know I know I've I've changed the clothes I've worn to certain faces because I think if I wear that sparkly dress somebody's going to say something oh I'm not going to say that I won this because I think I'm a big head yeah because I will have worn a sparkly dress probably to a party when I was seven and some friend said something horrible or you know I won a race on sports day and I got slagged off about it so you learn those things whereas boys it's like yeah go on mate you did this that's brilliant you know we might have a bit of a fight but we're best friends again the next day but we we take that lesson into grown-up womanhood and into our businesses so instead of having to be able to say you know actually I just need to part my business for three or six months because I have so much going on this good girl in us this need to prove ourselves doesn't allow us to do that which goes back to I think the fact that we we feel we feel threatened by other women and we feel attacked.
And what will they say? What will so-and-so down the road say if she hears my business is closed or I suspended it? It's such a shame. And there is that, isn't there? I know that when I was setting up my business and I speak to clients all the time when they're setting up theirs and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, it's that feeling of, oh, someone's going to ask me how it's going and it's like how is your little business you know it's even the way there's a language they use and it's like oh bless her she'll be

getting a job before you know it and you know you do have that you have that awareness everyone

talks to me when we talk about posting on social media they have those few friends who they know

are sat there in the sidelines waiting for them to fail and that's a horrible place to be

Thank you. They have those few friends who they know are sat there in the sidelines waiting for them to fail.
And that's a horrible place to be. Yeah.
And that's when, again, being strong enough to know who the people are in, who the people you want in your circle are. So we have a thing in our family where we talk about circle of trust.
We do that because we do it um because it was meet the fuckers wasn't it you know when they talked about our family circle so we do we talk about that because our youngest if you are if you cross him you're outside that circle you're very much outside that circle yeah so we have like some of the girls will go you know I'm very'm very much wow she's kind of lingering on the edge of my circle but and then I like another person like that person's never coming in my circle it's knowing that actually there's friends and there's friends and you've just got to not be what you've just got to to think that actually if you're not a friend then you can say what you want about me on social media and stalk me I'm just not going to let it bother me which I know again is a hard isn't it we do we do take on external feedback more as women than I think guys do I think sometimes I'm oblivious to it as well I think that helps is they don't pick up the sentiment behind some of the the tones and the comments whereas we're that much more astute to it, aren't we? Yeah, because we're much more intuitive. So we just know, you know, sometimes someone can write a comment that seems all right.
And you're just like, I know that that's pointed Barb at me. But also there's the other times as well when we're hypersensitive and we just have to check sometimes is this me actually is this my stuff that I'm projecting onto this other woman or this comment so we do have to be aware of that but again it's that learned behavior I had so many comments from girls at school and as women you know when I was a lawyer you just think actually you know you know Sarah and if you you and I just wouldn't have been able to have this conversation you know 15 years ago because I didn't really like women I'm not talking to you love what do you want and so you know kind of I was either go on so I said I was either scared of them women or just wanted to compete with them or they kind of weren't in my radar which is a real shame because I really didn't make the most of the girl friendships that I had because I couldn't feel like I'd really let them into my circle of trust because I just didn't have that trust element so I know that I've kind of had relationships that I've let go of that actually probably could have been really strong friendships and that's something that I really regret yeah so with um Grace and me my daughters I really say to them look you know find the good ones and really hold on to them because they're so valuable yeah and so important to take with you and and that kind of leads me really nicely actually on to my sort of last question on this which was like you know if you're sat there thinking you know what yeah I don't have those close friends I'd love that idea of people dropping in and having that close relationship with people how do people go about what's your advice for them how could they go about starting that it's really from my experience it's a bit of a baptism of fire you just have to take a leap of faith and say, you know, I'm going to, if it's for example, in a business community, find a really good networking group of women where I can just try it out.
You know, whether it's on zoom to begin with, just to see what the people are like, it's trying it out, knowing that it's not your role to be liked by every woman and it's not every woman's role to like you either because it's just that's just how the world works but also know you know get out of people pleasing don't be out there trying to make everybody like you just find the people that you genuinely connect with and that you feel safe with and that you trust also look back on your friendship circle and think actually are there people I want to reconnect with that I've lost touch with be really brave and think are their friends I just want to let go of you know if you've got women in your life you're making you feel crap then why are they in your life really and I know that can be difficult because some of those women could be your family and it's not so easy just to ditch no no that's quite hard um but can you set some boundaries around there or you know you know we both say this is get get a coach get a mentor someone to help you work through these issues because the reasons that women are nasty to each other and the reasons we don't trust each other is because we've had past experiences so it's's being able to talk through those past experiences, be kind and forgiving to yourself, understanding why they happened, why you responded to them in that way, and find out different ways of kind of rewriting that narrative or responding differently. And also a massive driver for me was my daughters.
I don't want my girls to have the view of women that I had historically. I don't want them to think that the bitchy girl at school is reflective of every woman so that they spend the rest of their lives fearing being in a female environment.
Because the world's so aggressive, isn't it? At the moment, it's really testosterone filled with anger, anger anger and envy um I want to inspire a whole generation of women who become the prime ministers and the presidents and the

leaders that bring us the balance we really need you know I know this is kind of big picture but I

think women we've got to step up because the world is pretty crappy right now and if we're gonna

change it has to start with us so it's a really difficult process for me to go to go to a counselor

Thank you. the world is pretty crappy right now.
And if we're going to change, it has to start with us.

So it's a really difficult process for me to go to a counsellor,

go to a therapist, talk about my relationship with my mum, with women,

get it all out.

But do you know what? I'm so much happier for it.

And I'm a much better mum.

I'm a much better role model to the girls than I ever would have been before.

It doesn't mean I like every woman out there.

I mean, I'd love to see that. No, see that.
I do. And not every woman likes me, but at least I'm comfortable enough to know that that's okay.
And that's the main thing, isn't it? I mean, that goes with women and men is we're not going to click with everyone. I mean, I've met, we've moved areas and I've met people and it's like, they just don't get me.
I'm joking. And they're like taking me seriously me seriously and I'm like this is so strange to you know you can be absolutely totally misunderstood with with sort of flyaway comments because they just don't they don't get you and that they're not your people they're not on the same wavelength as you that can happen with guys as well as women and so it's understanding okay you know where are the people that that get me that I can be myself with who I don't have to watch myself so that I don't offend anyone um you know you can just be yourself and and that's what you're seeking out that doesn't have to be a huge group of friends in that circle it just has to be that support network that you need to to help you you know in life isn't it yeah it's kind of if you could have your perfect whatsapp group that you would message them at three in the morning and they'd respond and help you who do you want in that perfect whatsapp group isn't it and it's not many people no because it'd get lost in a whatsapp group wouldn't it all those responses yeah it's just it's just the right people and also as women we have to check with that I have to please everybody good girl thing that lots of us carry with us um you know be a bit of a rebel it's okay there will be people that love the rebel in you because that's the true you I I would say to the women I work with, who were you at kind of five, six, seven? What's the essence of her? That's who you are probably before everything's been heaped on top of you.
Feel her, embody her and be her and know that she's safe and gather around her the circle of people that brings her out make her feel safe and that she can be her real self with yeah you know because that's the real you um and those are the people that you need and particularly if you're running a business as you know sarah it's really hard running a business it's harder running a business as a woman and particularly if you're a mum and it's even harder if you're doing it and trying to be someone else at the same time that's just exhausting yeah the best thing you can do is be yourself absolutely Mandy thank you so much for your time and if they want more information from you if they want more Mandy in their life what do they do where do they go they can go to mandyreese.com is where you can find out about my coaching. And then I am the Mandy Reese on Instagram and LinkedIn.
So you can find me there. And I'd love to connect with anybody.
Just send me a connection request or drop me a message. It would be fabulous to just get in touch.
Brilliant. Thank you very much, Mandy.
Well, how lovely is she? I really enjoyed that, guys. And I hope you did too.
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