GaryVee: The Social Media Blueprint to Grow Your Business and Brand | Marketing | YAP Live

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There's going to be seven-minute videos on TikTok that crush in three years.

I know where I came from.

It's important to me.

For me, being a nice person and providing back to the game that put me on is everything.

I have lived a life where I came from the dirt, now live a life where I see all the tippy top 1%.

And I can promise you that money does not buy happiness.

When it comes to entrepreneurship, my giving a f

about people's judgment on my failures is

majority of human beings on earth do not have the stomach to fail in front of everyone's faces.

Organic content is now the single most important thing in marketing in the world.

It's the game.

I believe that most people suck at social media because they try to go viral on every post.

And when they don't, they cry to mommy.

49% of entrepreneurs have some sort of mental health issue, anxiety, ADD.

I think the reason that people are struggling is that we become very wordy.

Social media has allowed us to talk and most people talk more straight bullshit.

The reason people burn out is because

What's up, young improfiters?

Welcome to the show.

We've got an exciting conversation in store for you all.

We are live at vayner media offices i have the honor and privilege of interviewing one of my all-time favorite entrepreneurs one of my role models as a marketer gary vaynerchuk and we are going to talk all about his come-up story we're going to talk about how to become a successful entrepreneur how to do what you love

and we're going to get into his new book day trading tension it's literally a masterclass on social media marketing and advertising.

I can't wait to share this conversation with you all.

Let's get into it.

Gary, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.

Thanks for having me.

I'm so excited.

You know, you have been one of my inspirations as a marketing expert, as an entrepreneur.

I've been listening to your advice for a long time.

And one of the things that I really respect about you is that you're always giving consistent, productive, positive advice, very different from other leaders out there.

You really spend time with the underdogs, with the small dogs.

And so, my first question to you is: why is being humble and having humility so important to you?

And why do you spend so much time teaching young entrepreneurs?

Well, that's very sweet.

Thank you.

Well,

it's, why is it important to me?

First of all, I would say that I got very fortunate.

I think it's in me.

It was,

if I'm analyzing at 48 years old, it was in my DNA.

And then it was.

reinforced at scale by the person that probably gave me the DNA, my mom.

So I think humility, and it's interesting.

I appreciate you saying that.

I think as I'm getting older, people are seeing it in the action.

Because, you know, I'm an interesting communicator.

And so, you know, I'm competitive and I'm jersey and like, you know, I curse.

And, you know, I think early in my career, I was very empathetic that like humble wouldn't be like what people first saw.

But I'm very proud that as later in my career, the actions, like for you, it's easy as somebody who watches carefully enough that it's something I'm very proud of.

And there's much that goes into it.

Why is it important to me?

It keeps me, I think it's an incredible trait.

I think it's a very attractive trait.

And I also think it's a very strong competitive advantage.

I think humility protects you from delusion.

It protects you from getting high in your own supply.

And

it just protects you from a lot of things that I think are yucky for people that win.

You know, like I enjoy being liked more by the people that actually know me than the ones that don't.

And there are many many people that we all put on a pedestal that are living the reverse life.

Yeah.

And so like, it is in my essence.

The reason I give back so much is I never want to get away from the kid in the dirt.

Like I know where I came from.

It's important to me.

I'm aware that we live in a world now where I will literally say something on this podcast for sure

because I'm confident in that.

That's my confidence that it's going to have a positive impact on someone in a real way, like actually.

And that is like incredibly fulfilling.

It gets me high.

And

I just, I really almost don't, like, I'm so hardwired to understand why wouldn't I?

But I'm understanding, I'm very empathetic to why I wouldn't and why others don't.

I'll give you an example.

I have a friend who just like, she believes like leaving the home, like, looking pristine is like the most important thing in the world.

And, you know, is there a mix of insecurity there?

Sure.

But like in her soul, like I know her well enough, it's like, no, no, this is important.

How you present, like, I like,

I don't know if I'm taking a minute to get ready and go out.

And I get guy and girl.

There's things, right?

But everyone's allowed to have things that are religious to them, right?

Yeah.

That are their North Stars.

For me, being a nice person and providing back to the game that put me on is everything.

You You know, it's everything to me.

Like entrepreneurship as a framework, especially for kids that came from the dirt, is what was the game that allowed me to have my life.

I must contribute to that game at all costs.

And that's that.

Amazing.

Well, that's super powerful.

And I know that me and you actually have a lot in common.

We both have marketing agencies, both entrepreneurs, both have podcasts, both bullish on LinkedIn, both grew up in New Jersey.

You're part of

Watchung, New Jersey.

Oh, I know it very well.

The Wachung Mall, like the Toys R Us and the Watch Mall was like a very substantial spot for me in 1992 and 3 when I would pick up toys and flip them at blue markets.

At Blue Star Mall, that's what I'm talking about.

Was there a cowdoor there as well?

Yeah, back in the day.

Back in the day.

Anyway, sorry, go ahead.

Yeah, so we're both from Jersey.

Now, I'm nowhere near as successful as you yet.

Right.

So there's 500 million entrepreneurs.

I'm just one of them.

How are you, how did you reach the top of entrepreneurship?

Like, how are you so successful?

Why are you an outlier when it comes to the other 500 million entrepreneurs out there?

My perception of it is it's similar to

the iconic people in other merit-based worlds, sports, music and entertainment.

I think what's cool about business is like, you can't hide.

You know, what I love about sports is like, you can say you're good at it, but you have to actually play one-on-one basketball.

And if you lose 11-0 to your buddy that you said you're good at it, you're not good at it.

Same with business.

You could say, you know, this.

You're growing up in an era, like I grew up in an era where entrepreneurship was not cool.

You're growing up in an era where it went completely the other way.

Everybody is.

And everybody says they are.

But are they?

You know,

I'm a rapper.

But am I?

And so a couple of things.

One, I think because there's more entrepreneurs than ever, but they're not really entrepreneurs.

They're aspiring entrepreneurs.

They have entrepreneurial tendencies.

And so it seems like there's a lot more.

That's one.

So to your point, out of all, like the base is bigger.

When I was a kid, the word didn't even exist.

Like I, when I was 13, 16, 19, I'm like, I'm going to be a businessman.

That would be the only word I would use.

I didn't even know what an entrepreneur was.

As a matter of fact, the first time I even remember hearing the word, it kind of seemed like the thing that like you were a loser, actually.

Like you said you were an entrepreneur, but like you were living on the beach and your parents, like it had a really negative, and then it went like completely the other way.

So that's one.

Two, back to sports and music.

Like Beyonce was born with her voice

and like, and her swag and her talents.

Now she put in ungodly amounts of work as a child to today.

LeBron.

As a child, I think where I really lucked out is I put in a work as a child in a world that almost nobody was doing what I was doing at the time.

Like when I tell you I punted school,

like I don't believe that people will believe me when I say this,

but I know that the Adam Blums and the Garrett Van Fleets and the Pam Moses's and Robin Martz's and the Robbie Turnicks that grew up with me know this to be true.

In high school,

in high school,

I did not do one homework assignment in all four years.

Not one.

Not only that, somewhere around, I believe, sophomore year, but it might even be second half of freshman year, I, for four years of high school, did not open a book once.

I did not hand in one book report.

And I guessed on my Scantron all four years, A, B, C, B, A, all four.

I got zeros on tests.

I was 243 out of 254 in class rank.

I had a 1.6 something GPA and I got a D in speech.

I went so to the extreme, even today where entrepreneurship is allowed, we're like a 14-year-old entrepreneur now.

We're like, yo, you got it.

Like you're the next Zuckerberg, right?

And we champion them.

Even those kids aren't 100% entrepreneur and completely pun school.

It's very rare.

So I think the reason I stood out was I put in way more work than everybody and had natural talent.

Yeah.

And that's really the answer.

Yeah.

And so I'm the same.

Like I was always selling things as a young kid, leading things as a a young kid, inventing things.

And so I was naturally an entrepreneur, like right out, I dropped out of college to become an entrepreneur, you know?

And so it was very natural to me.

For people who don't take risks naturally, who aren't naturally creative, do you think they're cut out for entrepreneurship?

No.

I mean, creative is different, but risk is the requirement.

Yeah.

Because you're naturally risking from the second you start.

You are saying, I am good enough to stand on my own two feet.

And I will either succeed in all of your faces or i will fail in front of all your faces and the majority of human beings on earth do not have the stomach to fail in front of everyone's faces

one of the other ways i could have answered your last question is because i'm not scared to lose

yeah why did i achieve a lot because i wasn't scared

yeah like like you know like yep like i'm and i'm very up there's many things i was scared to do like i'm like i don't want to do i don't want to jump out of a plane so i'm not a good plane jumper Like, I don't want to like, but like, when it comes to entrepreneurship, my giving a fuck about people's judgment on my failures is zero.

And it's, and it's been zero for so long that it's so ingrained in me.

And if you can't deal with judgment and if you can't deal with taking a step back,

you know how humility works?

When you make a lot of, do you know what it feels like?

You're going through a very interesting journey.

And so a lot of entrepreneurs right now.

One of the worst feelings in in the world is to make a lot less money professionally than you used to because you once taste the alternative.

Never making $100,000 a year and living $70,000 a year and being happy is one of the great lives of all time.

Getting up to $400,000 a year, but then having whatever happened, that job loss, new

business side hustle lost, like, and going to 180, ooh, that's tough.

Flying first class and then never being able to afford it.

And now sitting middle seat coach that fucks with people's psyches.

Not me.

Yeah.

Not me.

And

as if, like, what are you going to say to me that's going to make me value your opinion in a world where I know you've got a lot of things not going well too?

Okay.

So sticking on this being a successful entrepreneur, I know something that you talk about often is doing what you love and how it's so important as an entrepreneur to actually do what you love or you're going to burn out.

Correct.

So talk to us about that and how Vayner Media is doing what you love.

I love that.

That's a great question.

Doing what you love and also having the capacity to be comfortable with discomfort and being patient in eating shit is a very interesting enigma.

And I appreciate the way you asked the question because it's going to allow me to double click into it.

The reason Vayner Media and VaynerX, the holding co,

is me doing what I love.

It's because I'm willing to eat the crow in building this infrastructure to be the foundation of all my other future behavior.

So is Vayner Media my full nirvana moment?

It is not.

But I like it.

I love operating.

It sounds like you'll resonate with this.

When you're a real purebred entrepreneur, you're happy selling anything.

Yeah, it's fun.

Like I'll sell sneakers.

My favorite thing to do.

That's right.

You know, and so like, okay, like, but I also have a, I also have the capacity to be strategic, make less money, be uncomfortable.

Like, I worked in my dad's liquor store until I was 34 years old.

I need every kid to hear this.

I worked in my father's liquor store until I was 34 years old.

So I had patience.

That was in one side, the reason I did it was I was so thankful and grateful to my parents for bringing me to America and bring and like changing the course of my life.

And I love them and we're very close in age.

My parents were 22 and 20 when they had me.

So we're like borderline friends.

And like it's the best.

And I knew that I believed that I was going to be a great entrepreneur.

And I somehow had the wisdom at 22 years old to say, you know what?

I'm going to go in here and build something huge from my parents.

And then I'll have time to bounce out and go do it for myself.

It was the greatest decision I ever made, but fuck, it was hard.

Yeah.

Like, you know.

Like working in a like, you know what I mean?

Yeah, a lot of people end up resenting their parents if they push them towards anything that's in the family business but you agree i ran i know my parents honestly

they were they were agnostic like like it was it was weird by the time i was 16 it was pretty clear to both my parents that i was good

But they didn't go like, like, the reason I love my parents is they didn't go weirdo on me and try to turn me into like a slave, right?

They just, it kind of just was.

We were all just kind of moving, you know?

It was very immigrant.

Yeah.

We're just like, you know, you're doing what you have to do.

And

I walked into it.

Like I was like, let me, I'm going to come and like wreck house.

And literally took, you know, shoppers discount liquors and built wine library, one of the biggest wine retailers in the country.

And everybody from Wacheng went to Wine Library.

It was awesome.

And,

you know, it was really, it was really a great chapter.

But fuck, I'd be lying to everyone if I didn't say, like, I'm unstoppable with judgment, but I promise you, five years after college at 27, when I'm working the floor, helping people select wine during Christmas, and some of my buddies that I grew up with now are in Wall Street and driving into our parking lot, and they're BMW, and they're buying a case of Don Perrion, and I'm carrying it out to their car and putting it into their trunk.

And I see the way they're looking at me like, oh man, and I know I'm going to fucking be bigger than everyone.

Holding your breath is fucking hard.

And I'm fucking unstoppable.

So if it even registered to me, the normal person with their relationship with judgment, fuck, that was hard.

Yeah.

And the bigger thing that was hard was my dad was not paying me that much money when I was building a huge company.

And then I started forming,

I think calling it resentment would be too much, but I started having feelings.

Like the business went from 4 million to 60 million.

And I'm still making 80,000 a year.

You know, if I would have been better off going anywhere, I would have been making millions.

So, you know, I think, but, but, but again, I was making my own bed.

The reason it was cool was I knew I chose to do it, just like I chose to leave and start Vayner Media.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

Okay, one more question on entrepreneurship because I want to spend most of the time on your new book.

And this one is about mental health.

So I feel like it's going to become hot, like a hot trend where entrepreneurs are going to start focusing more on mental health.

As I'm doing my podcast, I feel like more people are talking about it.

And I read that entrepreneurs spend 73% less time with their friends and family.

49% of entrepreneurs have some sort of mental health issue, anxiety, ADD, things like that.

So my question to you is for all the entrepreneurs out there or people who want to be entrepreneurs, what's your advice to make sure that we're taking care of our mental health and our relationships?

I mean, I've been pretty consistent on this, like long before I think we've gotten more thoughtful about the mental health aspect.

Like I will never, to the day I die, understand why anyone would choose anything over being happy.

I think people think money will cover up the scars and make you happy.

I believe that people don't, that don't have money believe that money is happiness

and that if they buy a BMW or get some an attractive husband or wife or have three homes or have a seven carat ring or a private chef, that that will unlock the happiness.

I've lived a life where I came from the dirt.

and now live a life where I see all the typey top 1%.

And I can promise you, and one day you'll find out if you don't believe me that money does not buy happiness.

It creates convenience.

It creates opportunity to do things, but I'm talking about happiness.

So what is my recommendation?

Fuck around and find out.

That's my recommendation.

If you do not believe me or the other people that spit it who've lived it,

the reason people burn out is because they choose money,

not entrepreneurship.

Entrepreneurship without the money is the game.

You and I weren't picking money when we were selling candy in school.

We're just like living our life.

It's somebody.

Yeah, people were gravitating towards trumpet.

People were gravitating towards Spanish class.

People were gravitating, like, nobody, I didn't read a business book in second grade and open up a lemonade stand.

My mom didn't tell me to do that.

It was the light.

It was all I knew.

It was my hard wiring.

That's different than, I mean, I need to, and that's why this fake entrepreneurship era is tough because a lot of them are making a bad name for the game they're like entrepreneurship with my mental health it's because you were trying to use it to cover up your issues

therapy should have been what you were doing not entrepreneurship

yeah and it's that you know i've never said that before and i appreciate your reaction like that's actually the truth People thought the money could cover it up.

The money accelerates it.

Money exposes you.

It doesn't change you.

Yeah.

So, what would I say?

I would say what I've been saying my whole life, even my first book, Coming Out the Gate, my message, even you said it earlier, like it was crush it, cash in on your passion.

Everybody who's listening right now, think about the thing you would do 24-7 if you could, if you really could.

What is your play?

What is your downtime?

What is your leisure?

What's your favorite?

Golf?

Cooking?

Music?

skiing?

Travel?

Like, if you can spend your 20s trying to make a career in that, you will win.

If you go and try to be practical and be an accountant because your dad said so, or you think it's cool and be an entrepreneur when deep down, you know, you don't have the stomach for it, you will lose.

And so, I think the reason that people are struggling is that they're not in their right path.

Yeah.

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But what about the entrepreneurs that are doing really good, but they're obsessed with being an entrepreneur and they're spending so much time on their business that they ignore their relationships.

It means that they may not value their relationships as much as they want to say they are.

Got it.

You know, a lot of people like to talk shit without going to the third level.

Yeah.

Gary, but you don't get it.

I'm not, I'm not spending enough time with my boyfriend.

I'm like, maybe you don't like your boyfriend.

Because I promise you, if you're obsessed with your boyfriend and your business, you'll make the time.

Yeah.

Actions over words.

We become very wordy.

We're really fucking wordy.

Yeah.

And this is not just Gen Z or millennials.

Like boomers are wordy as fuck on Facebook.

Humans have become incredibly wordy because there's somewhere to put your words.

Yeah.

Social media has allowed us to talk.

And most people talk straight bullshit.

And so,

Carrie, you don't get it.

Like, I miss my kids.

I'm like, go see your kids.

Yeah.

People are not accountable.

People like to posture for optics,

but have a different reality.

You know, so

because if you actually mean it, you would do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Be honest about it.

You know, be honest about your priorities.

Yeah, I think people just are getting really good at like looking for

pity.

Yeah.

Like, like, I'm going to struggle to cry for someone who is actively, fully in control as an entrepreneur who's crying about it.

And now someone's going to be listening and say, but I have a job and I'm stuck.

No, you're not.

You could sell your home.

You could pay rent at a smaller apartment.

You could sell your car and take public transportation.

Many people did for many generations.

We've just gotten so entitled and are looking for easy.

Do you know how many people complain about money and buy Starbucks?

So many.

And take Ubers

and go to Coachella?

Like if you're complaining about money, save it.

Yeah.

Well, let's move on to some of the marketing and tech stuff.

I want to talk about your day trading attention new bucks.

So you've been on the cusp and the cutting edge of a lot of things.

You were on the internet doing e-commerce before it was hot with Wine Library.

You were one of the first pioneers on YouTube.

So how can you tell when things are going to get hot?

You know how there's like good A ⁇ Rs and music?

Like, how'd you know Lady Lady Gaga was going to be big, whoever discovered her?

Like he or she was just had a knack for it.

Usually that knack is because you know how people are going to feel.

So I have a very good feeling of what the general public likes and doesn't like.

But also I put in the work.

Back to what we were talking about earlier.

When I jumped on YouTube in February of 2006 and went all in, I spent most of the summer of 05 reading TechCrunch every blog post.

And they would write about the new startups.

If I hadn't put in that work, I would have never would have clicked on like the articles that led me there.

If I didn't work 15 hours a day building winelibrary.com, sitting next to Eric Kastner, my developer, who probably was the one that said, read this TechCrunch article, because three years earlier, I asked him, can I put wine videos on the website?

How much would that cost?

And after he told me like a billion dollars to host them because it was old back then, he was like, you're probably going to like this because it's free.

I'm like, it's free?

You know,

and so

I'm good at human psychology.

I'll give you a real interesting one that you might find interesting since you're such a young buck.

But back in 2007, when I was yelling about Twitter,

almost everyone would say to me, This is so stupid.

Who cares that you're walking the dog?

Who cares if you're eating pizza?

And my answer was, everyone.

And people were like brain fucked with that.

They're like, what do you mean?

Now that must seem mundane to all you youngsters, like everybody shares everything everything about everything.

Yeah.

Back then nobody shared anything about anything.

So, you know, I think human psychology helps me, right?

Like, why did I understand musically?

Because I understood that it was putting in front of when it was only 14 year old girls, it was still putting in content in front of them based on content they liked, not based on following someone.

I saw that in Tumblr when I was an early investor in Tumblr, and I knew why Tumblr was winning.

It wasn't the social graph, people.

It was the interest graph.

What are you into?

Yeah.

And I always thought that was more powerful because, like, Dustin and I could have been best friends in junior high, but then by high school, if our interests changed, right?

We all lived through junior high and high school, high school and college, college and post-life.

We all saw, you know, one or two or three people stay forever.

A lot of times it's just because they've been there for so long and you just got war stories together.

It's not even like you are into the same shit anymore.

But the natural human flight is you do change friends based on interest, times in life, things, right?

And so that made more sense to me.

So it's the skill of human psychology.

It's the putting in the work.

Like I, I wake up in the morning and I look at the App Store

and then I play with things.

If I think Reclip is interesting, I download and play with it.

Yep.

And right now, the only ones that are playing with Reclip are Gen Alpha.

It's like, me?

And the nine-year-olds.

And so like, like, I put in the work, I stay curious, I watch, and then there's always moments where there's a tipping point.

And I've been pretty good.

Dust, you know, Dustin's filmed me in the back.

For all the people that really follow me, obviously D-Rock is doing his own thing.

And I always have different people filming.

And Dustin's now really been locked in with me for a little while.

And he's been here five, six.

So he's now seen a cycle.

And here's what I mean where I'm about to go next.

If we're getting very marketing nerdy.

Yeah.

He was here when Be Real was starting to get hot.

He was in the meetings filming me when I was like, I think it's a feature.

Like now it's not him reading about it.

Yeah.

Now it's not the kids, everyone who's listening right now on podcasts, like me talking about it no, no, he lived it.

So he can see that like there is a skill set to being good at it, not just throwing against the wall and see what sticks.

And so, you know, I'm excited about this skill.

I focus on it very heavily.

For example, the cliche question people ask me all the time is like, okay, so what's next?

I'm like, I don't know.

Yeah.

But the second I see it, I go all in, I taste it.

And whether that was vine, where it didn't mean something, but then it sold quickly, or it was social cam or Vero or all these other things that peach was a big one for a week back in 2014.

Like, I'm very focused on paying attention, putting in the work

saying maybe you know what everyone up i say no

tick tock no

and i always say maybe

yeah with a hope to yes

i say maybe with a hope to yes in a world of people that say no yeah because you want to make sure you capitalize on it while they're still underpriced attention like you say in your book right that's right the thing that many people will definitely understand right now that are listening is if you did move on tick tock when i was yelling about it every day six years ago, that would have been good.

And now that I think people have gone through a cycle, because I was big enough at that time, unlike 10 years earlier, that enough people heard that.

Enough people didn't go, you know why?

Insecurity.

Everybody that could and go crush it was on Instagram and they didn't want to start over.

Well, I got a million followers on Instagram.

I had zero on TikTok.

And people got caught.

Yeah.

So talk to us about the supply and demand curve that happens on social platforms.

At first, if they're meant to be big, the ones we all know, there's so much attention there, but there's less content creators.

And so anybody that's posting is going to get more of the percentage of the attention.

As it becomes normalized, it gets harder to go viral or get as many people to see it.

And then at some point, it becomes really challenging, kind of like the thing everyone's dealing with on Instagram right now, because so much attention got deviated to TikTok.

Not that anybody on TikTok is only on TikTok and not on Instagram.

Obviously, the very young may be that way, but most people are on both.

It's just that pre-TikTok, it was four hours on Instagram for that person instead of two, because two is now on TikTok.

The problem is at the same time that that went down from an attention standpoint, the amount of content that's being posted on Instagram is through the roof.

So yesterday, more content on Instagram than any day prior in Instagram's history, yet the attention is now fragmented between YouTube shorts, TikTok,

by the way, streaming services, by the way.

Twitch, by the way.

Like, and so what ends up happening is there's only 24 hours a day.

There's only so much attention, but there's more and more supply of content.

So, you have to know how to day trade it like a stock, somebody who day trades stocks.

You're buying in nanoseconds, whether it is the actual social media platform, buying ads on the platform,

the influencers on the platform to do deals with, or anything else in between,

and across all these platforms from LinkedIn to Pinterest to Snapchat to YouTube to YouTube Shorts to Facebook to Reels to Instagram, and then the units inside.

Do you post carousel?

Do you post a video?

Do you do a reel?

Do you do a long form picture?

Do you do a lot of copy?

Do you do no copy?

Do you do emoji?

What time do you post?

Like, this is fucking science.

Yep.

And like talent, like if you're remarkably beautiful, that will probably work.

If you're remarkably funny, that will probably work.

But for the most people, like being good at it.

is the point of this book.

I really like it.

This is the most textbook that I've ever written.

Like I'm going, going there.

Yeah.

And, you know, I'm very proud of how well I've played all of the instruments.

And I just want to try to help people get better at it.

Yeah.

Cause it is the game.

Yeah.

I loved your book, by the way.

I thought it was, you guys gave me an advanced copy and I read it and it was great.

Can I, can I, can I reverse this on you for a second?

So

you, you might be the first person I'm really, or maybe the second, but I didn't get to ask them.

Like, so obviously because of your success and your knowledge and your strengths, I kind of wrote this book for someone like you.

Like this isn't a, you weren't going to read this book and be like, oh, this is like, of course, like, I was, I'm curious what parts or what things or what hit.

Well, it solidified things for me.

So, for example, I'm one of the biggest LinkedIn marketing experts.

I teach like a two-day class.

It's the most popular class.

And I'm always, I can hack the algorithm.

And that's why people hire me.

So one of the things that's happening this year is that they're prioritizing interest relevancy over engagement probability.

It used to be that you would post something motivational, something inspirational.

If people shared it, you'd go viral.

Now it's all about posting a specific topic, educating people, and then LinkedIn will match users based on the things they like, the interest graph.

Exactly.

So I actually wanted you to, can you go super deep on the interest graph?

Because I feel like this is the major trend happening with all social media sites.

And that's what I, from your book, I was like, oh, he's right on the money.

This is, yeah.

This was, I told my brother that I thought Tumblr was going to be bigger than Facebook and Twitter.

I'll never forget.

I called him after I invested.

I said, I got the biggest one.

I went, I went Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, and my investing.

Those are the first three companies I invested in in my life out of a liquor store in New Jersey.

It's like funny.

It's like, I'm like, you can see I'm laughing at my, it's so improbable.

Like I don't even, because it's my life, I don't even think, like, it's absurd.

Comma, I thought Tumblr was going to be the biggest because of this conversation.

It just took 15 years for it to happen.

Again, everybody, social media for the first decade plus was very simple.

It was like email marketing.

You would get as many people to follow you as possible, and then you would post, and a percentage of those people would see it.

That was the game.

And that was easy for me to figure out because I did email marketing in 97, 98, 99 when that was like new.

And I was a big winner in that game.

That was underpriced attention.

I was competing against liquor stores that were making catalogs, but I was getting to the customer for free instead of how much a catalog cost and getting to them faster.

It was huge.

It was foundational.

So I saw the same thing in social.

So I massed big followings.

That was the focus.

TikTokification of social media, like I talk about in the book, that interest graphic algorithm is now going to eat up everything because it's better.

It keeps you on the platform longer.

Let's use common sense.

You go to your Facebook, you're now 27, you went on Facebook at 18.

The people you followed are people you met like one night hooking up or at a random party or whatever.

And now you're seeing posts of like them in Ohio with their aunt and you're like, I don't give a fuck.

But just like email, we don't unsubscribe from our fucking list.

We just delete it or archive it or like we don't put in the work to clean up our shit.

So you kept seeing you didn't give a about which made you not spend four hours on it it made you spend 14 minutes on your feed yeah then you go to tick tock and you're seeing unlimited that you with and four hours later you're like what the just happened yeah that's good for tick tock that was bad for facebook now all of them are going to be like tick tock and every social network is going to have the for you page dna in them for quite a while now maybe forever because it's more humanly true

that's what i focus on and that's why focus on your niche is about to fuck up everyone.

You're going to need to talk about more things than ever that are true to you because you're going to need that content to find more different audiences for you to be as big as you want to be.

I was going to ask you, does that mean riches are in the niches now because of the interest graph?

But to your point, if you've got multiple topics.

It's an and game.

Think about how weird I am.

The reason I know everybody from afar, especially in the game you're in, are like, what?

Like garage sale videos.

Then I, my grid has been fucked up for 12 years.

And I was like, make a good grid.

It's got to be on brand.

I'm like, you fucking have no idea what you're talking about.

The grid is like 5% of the consumption.

The feed is the whole game.

So you go to my fucking thing.

You're like, who is this?

Jets video, garage sale, keynote, board meeting, V-Friends, what the fuck is that?

Like, like, people are like, what?

Like, I'm confusing the shit out of people because I don't care about the grid.

I care about being as relevant to as many different people as humanly possible.

So it's really just about posting one post and that could go viral to different people rather than so glad you just said I was about to jump in earlier.

Another thing.

Let's talk about viral.

Sure.

I'm going to use baseball.

I know it's not as popular anymore, but it's the easiest one.

Going viral is hitting a grand slam.

Do you know anything about baseball?

A little.

I know enough.

Enough.

Enough.

Yeah.

You know what a strikeout is?

Yes.

Good.

Most posts are a strikeout.

Okay.

Right?

Doesn't do what you want it to do.

I'm in the business of singles and doubles and triples with the occasional home run and grand slam, but could give a shit about hitting a grand slam.

Or if you don't follow baseball, everyone,

I won't use an analogy.

I don't ever think about going viral.

Ever.

I only think about making good content that is valuable to the people on the other side.

And that means that most of my stuff will consistently do solid.

occasionally do better than solid and once in a while go viral.

I believe that most people suck at at social media because they try to go viral on every post.

And when they don't, they cry to mommy.

So you're more about posting as much as you can.

Hopefully they all do pretty good.

And posting as much as you can is also based on self-awareness of like, I start with like, do I have something to say that could bring someone value?

Again, I need everybody to hear this.

That comes in all shapes and sizes.

I mean this.

If you're funny, and you do a skit like King Batch, that's value.

You made somebody smile and it's a fucked up world out there and the feeds are fucking negative and media is negative and like that little ha ha ha.

If you're attractive, like people like looking at attractive people, if you know something about LinkedIn, that's valuable to the people that want LinkedIn.

Like we all have value.

If you know something about BMX or wine or sneaker, like value, value, value.

I think people have niched themselves in a corner.

What happens if you know a lot about sneakers and you know a lot about bourbon?

Post both.

But I don't want to fucking the algorithm.

And then people are super insecure.

They almost never post because they don't think it's gonna do well as if that means anything yeah like okay you normally get 5 000 views on your video and this one got 49

what is okay yeah like

what is the matter with this right yeah like i mean seriously we're just like it's like we're treating our lives and social media like we're still in junior high

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Speaking of niches, let's talk about creating audiences.

Because, like you just talked about, we can talk about multiple topics.

We don't have to be scared about that.

We can be a dynamic person on social media, which means we're going to be speaking to multiple audiences.

That's right.

And you say we should develop cohorts with teeth.

So, what do you mean by that?

When I make content, sometimes I'm like,

this piece of content that I'm going to make is going to hit 45 to 55-year-old first-time moms on the coasts.

More New York LA mentality than London, than Ohio, than Spain.

So if I know that I'm doing that, don't you think that my adjectives and analogies tone intent right?

So I want everyone who's listening to start thinking about cohorts.

Gary, what do you mean?

I just do sneaker content.

Okay.

Well, there's a lot of different niches within sneaker content.

There's people of high net worth like myself who can afford bougie fucking, you know, Nike Air Air Force One collaborations.

There's other people who just like really like new balance.

Like there's, there's the Reebok movement that I'm getting into as well.

Like there's a lot going on.

Crocs, if you want to expand it a little bit, like, do you know who you're making this video for?

Because everyone's going to vanilla.

I make content for entrepreneurs.

I'm like, okay, knock yourself out.

Like,

imagine how much better a piece of content is that you know that you're going to make, I'm going to make content for

first generation hispanic entrepreneurs that are 18 to 22 that came from immigrant parents that came from mexico i'm going to use analogies i'm going to make reference to rigatone i'm going to talk about san antonio culture like like use their slang and however they talk 100 it's called relevance everyone if you're not relevant to someone The second I make a long tail barstool joke, every barstool dude is like, fuck, yeah.

Like it's not super complicated.

And so, because everyone gets so boring and vanilla right away, people say to me all the time, they're like, it's a really funny thing that I fuck people up with.

Like, because I've been so consistent and growing and all this stuff.

But then like sometimes they'll be like, but Gary, you say the same shit.

I'm like, what do you want me to make up stuff I don't believe in?

And then they go, like, if they stick with me in that combo, they start to realize, ah, I say the same macro 15 things, but the way I say it differently and how and where and what and to whom, that's the game.

Yeah.

So cohorts, these are consumer segmentations.

In old television talk, it was, we're trying trying to reach the 18 to 35 year old demo.

I like to think, and I know I'm looking at your crew a lot because I like doing that.

Like, I like to think everyone in here is at a point in their lives where they realize an 18-year-old person and a 32-year-old person

are very different.

So like, but that was television.

You didn't have the internet.

Yeah.

Now that we have the internet, like everybody who's listening should be posting on Facebook.

It's huge still.

I'm getting 25, 30 year old audience on Facebook.

Now they're on there like once in a blue moon compared to whatever, but like, like you should be relevant to Facebook audience.

You should be relevant to TikTok audience.

Snapchat's culture is slightly different than TikTok's and TikTok's like, it's all different rooms out there, and you want to be in every room.

And so, what I talk about in the book about cohorts is consumer segmentation.

And the reason I say with teeth is Adland, Don Draper, advertising, marketing agencies, the big brands that we work with, the biggest brands in the world, they like to talk about consumer segmentations, but they have one.

They're like, we're going to sell this beer to

health-seeking enthusiasts.

They make it fucking broad as shit because they're going to make just a super, they're going to make one commercial on television and health-seeking.

What they're basically telling you is like, let's make a beer commercial where like the couple went to yoga and after had a beer.

Do you see what they're doing?

What I'm saying is, if you want that beer to be relevant to a lot of people, like you need to go deeper than that.

And it needs to be like yoga moms, young yoga moms in Kansas City, you're going to make a very different piece of fucking Facebook content or Instagram content than if you say professional moms in New York City who are having their first child at 40 and fuck with yoga.

Can you imagine how different those two pieces are?

Yeah, very different.

Well, that's called fucking cohorts with teeth.

Love it.

And so that was your first variable of your modern advertising framework, also the day trading attention framework.

And then you lead into something called PAC, platforms and culture.

Check is huge.

Platforms and culture.

If you take anything out of this interview and you want to crush social, obsess with platforms and culture.

Platforms are what are the platforms currently doing that they give a shit about?

So when Facebook announces carousels, good news.

They need to test it.

That means you should be making carousels because more people are going to see it organically, right?

If the trends of the consumers on the platforms are people like skits.

That's a platform and culture thing because you got to always know what's going on in culture.

Culture is pop culture.

Do you know that baggy pants are back?

Like, because tight jeans were fucking crushing seven years ago, right?

Do you know that Crocs came back five years ago?

Because six years ago, they were dork Bill USA, but 20 years ago, they were killing it.

Do you know what's going on with Aiden Ross and Sexy Reds controversy or don't you?

Do you know?

Like, do you know?

pop culture or don't you?

Because if you do know pop culture, you're able to create crazy relevance.

Right?

Do you under like, because you're able to integrate that into your copy or the creative itself?

There's a few moments, there's three weeks to seven weeks there where the corn kid is a social media obsession or that, or that the Walgreens private label, nice mango gummies are hot with gen alpha for a week.

But if you're in the fucking gummy business, you should know that or you sell candy, you should like, do you have a pulse of popular culture on everything?

Because what's pop culture to maybe us is definitely not pop culture to somebody that lives in Peru

like you know like there's people that literally I had a friend literally because I'm 48 now so most of my friends are fucking finished and what I mean by that is like deep pop culture I literally had a friend six months ago text me yo have you heard of this guy bad bunny i'm like what the fuck i'm like dude please don't text anybody that like you know what i mean i literally took a screenshot of me dming bad bunny in 2017 for him i'm like yes I've heard like, you know, razzing him of like, he's finished.

He's a fucking suburban dad.

Like, do you know or don't you know?

Yeah.

So culture matters heavy for content because we're going to have to be better than everybody else.

And if you can interstitial pop culture, you will win.

Like, do you know it's a lavender latte at Starbucks for this season?

You can.

fact through.

I like that you see like, but notice what just happened?

She like shook her head because that one hit for her.

Whereas Sexy Red ate it, like, you know, like, so imagine if I want both of them to give a shit about me I've got to do both those things because I've got one second in feed for them to give a fuck.

Yeah, platforms and culture to me That's very point in time, right?

They're always changing You've got to know what features are hot on the platform You got to know the the algorithm right you've got to know what's hot day trading then you have strategic organic content and to me that's more about understanding human behavior strategic organic content is the content that follows the pack framework in my mind if you know those two things, then you make according to that, that is the outcome.

Yeah.

That is the content.

I'll give you an example.

It sounds like I haven't dug under the hood, but I will after this interview that you're doing real work in LinkedIn.

So that means most likely that you want on the P part, the platform.

I know that because I also heard you talk about what the platform is doing.

If you knew more about, this is how you get way better.

This is how I get way better every day.

In the PAC framework, you could get to a place pretty quickly, six months, where you really know how the platform works.

You've clearly done that on LinkedIn.

What is really cool for you to go to the stratosphere is if you actually knew what was in pop culture talk for literally SaaS salesmen,

for literally a cat.

I know this is going to resonate with you.

Like if you knew the fucking slang and the shit that every Fortune 500 CFO cared about or every late stage VC

CIO,

now you're fucking cooking.

got it yeah because now it's not just you know that this kind of content will work now you know even what the video or picture needs to do got it yes that's pack okay and so what and then what we call sock strategic organic content is the framework it's the reason I created sock and we run it heavy here at Vayner is organic content meaning posting without media behind it or amplifying it is now the single most important thing in marketing in the world.

It's the game.

Okay.

If I needed to put the S in front of it, because by making it strategic, I'm trying to make sure that everybody in my company and all my clients and anybody around me realizes I need you to think about this.

That's what we've been talking about for the last 10 minutes.

There's a lot of people listening right now that I can feel them right now as they're walking the dog on the treadmill.

I can feel them saying, ooh.

There's a lot to this.

It isn't just like, no wonder my videos are not doing good.

You know, there's, there's something to this.

That's how I think about this.

Yeah.

So I want to to dig in on strategic organic content.

So one of the things I want to write my first book on is human behavior online, because I feel like if you understand human behavior, even if algorithms are changing, certain things don't change.

You always want to see a face.

You always want to have a hook.

Everybody wants things shorter and skimmable, right?

So there's always things.

That last one, the first two I liked a lot.

The last one's an interesting one for me.

I guess it depends on the platform and what the purpose is, right?

You'd be shocked.

I mean, I promise you, we'll clip this in the future.

There's, there's going to be seven minute videos on TikTok that crush in three years.

Crush.

The thing that this goes back to a big thesis in the book.

If it's good, you can do anything.

If it's a, if it is a wildly compelling 19-minute video,

you can crush on Instagram, though it is very unlikely to be good enough to be able to do that.

Right.

So I just, I want, the reason I jumped in is you're not wrong.

Yeah.

I just wanted to add a curveball to everybody listening.

It's, it's not universal.

Just because you make, people make unlimited seven second videos that people stop watching after a half a second because it's a shitty seven second video.

And there's also incredible amounts of outliers, if you pay very close attention, of longer form video in social,

a minute, two minute, three minute, four minute that have a lot of validity.

And honestly, for a lot of people listening, they might have just heard something that got them excited because in their gut, they're like, you know what?

I really can make epic four minute videos.

I guess TikTok's not for me.

Yeah.

It is.

There's a reason these platforms, Back to P,

have extended the length of their video time.

There's a reason.

So how, what should we do when we have really good performing content?

We should amplify it.

If you can afford to spend media dollars after a piece of content went crazy,

then you should do that.

And if you're just a creator by yourself and you're like a kid, If you're listening right now and you're 16 and like you dunked on your little sister in the basketball room in your room and it has 3 million followers on TikTok and you have ambition to be known and you want to do something with it.

Don't let the algorithm be the only way you get reach.

Google, how do I run ads on TikTok?

Chat GPT, how do I run ads on TikTok?

Read and learn, you know, like how everything works or watch a video.

And then you as a 16 year old, take your 40 bucks and spend it on getting more people to see it.

Yeah.

Okay.

So because the world has shown you that it's good.

You're not guessing.

You You didn't dunk on your sister and then spend 40 up front.

This is how all advertising workers, you know, we guess.

Now we can live in a world where we can do it post-spend media, not pre-spend media.

It's huge.

So once we see something working, lean into it, invest in it.

Don't just invest in things that you haven't tested yet.

Think about it.

It's like working out.

Like if you see something's working and your physique is like, man, why would you stop and try to do something else and hope it works?

Like, you got it.

Go.

We have not figured it out because the way media had worked forever was you spent the money on something you were guessing on.

You thought the commercial would do well, you thought the billboard would go well, you thought your newspaper ad was good.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So, where does storytelling fit in with all of this?

Like oxygen.

Storytelling is omni.

I don't even, as you know, I barely, it's not something I really touched on a whole lot because it's oxygen.

Life is storytelling.

Everything's a story.

I don't want to get super philosophical here, but everything, every person in the world, all 8 billion of us, everything we believe in is a story.

all of it

amazing it's the whole game

the reason i don't really go into like storytelling all that much is like my book on storytelling would would be literally one page it's everything

the end

meaning like like the reason you believe in anything you believe in is because you bought the story yeah

So I think a good way to round this out would be to get a full example of somebody using the modern advertising framework.

If you can just think of an example and walk folks through.

Mr.

Beast.

Sure.

Let me make it easy and lazy for everyone.

Be perfect at one of the greatest platforms with attention.

Thumbnail, first second, every beat of three or four minutes or whatever the science is there.

Copywriting, what time to post, language translation, crush, be consistent, eat shit for years to figure it out, then explode, then use that attention as a platform to build a absolute media empire and CPG empire, right?

And notice what he does.

He goes and tests Twitter, right?

I'm hearing Twitter is going to give me a drilling views.

Like he's, you know,

I've never really fully crushed YouTube because there's a lot of post-production and I'm not living that life.

But we've had better years and worse years, but that was a commitment.

I mean, there's really unlimited, I mean, King Batch, I mentioned him, but like, you know, fine comes out, bring value.

You can be funny, make skits.

It was underpriced attention.

Him and Jerome Jarr and Logan Paul and all those characters, you know, Rudy, Moncuso, like they're like literally in fucking, like, I mean, is anybody paying attention who's in these movies?

They were from Vine, right?

They stood, they stole, I almost said stole.

They didn't.

They operated as a great marketer on that attention.

They built.

I was there, so I'll tell you what they did.

They took all that attention from Vine and most of them put it on Snap.

and became big snap story people and then boom tick tock and instagram kind of went to short form video, and they took it over there, and then to YouTube, and then to television, and then to film, right?

And it works hand in hand.

Clicks,

the video game player, like and all these streamers.

I mean, streaming is such an opportunity, like Kai Saned and like Aiden, and Clix and Booga, and like all these, you know, like

just there's really unlimited opportunities.

Uh, poppy soda, prime energy drink, um,

Ocean Spray.

I spoke about they didn't even do it.

Opening of my book, the random guy is drinking a fucking ocean spray, listening with Fleetwood Mac music in the background, going down his skateboard, longboard.

It goes viral on TikTok and it sells out of ocean spray around the country.

Like, you know, these are like, this is marketing now.

The era of television commercials is over.

Outside of the Super Bowl, where it's very important, and I recommend anybody who's listening, who's a Fortune 50, Fortune 500 company, to deeply consider the Super Bowl because it's very underpriced attention.

I can run every wheel and cranny that I have, and I can't spend $8 million to get 150 million Americans to watch a full 30-second video.

Are you fucking kidding me?

But Super Bowl does.

People watch those Super Bowl commercials.

The problem is if the video is not good, you've lost, right?

Yeah.

But outside, we no longer live in a television commercial world.

We now live in a social media advertising world and everything starts there and then you can do marketing campaigns and billboards.

Everybody's billboards, every big company's billboards should be imagery that was already proven out to be successful on social.

That's a very different world for everybody who doesn't come from marketing.

It's the reverse.

Yeah.

So a short question before we close this out.

In terms of entrepreneurs and your marketing advertising framework, your day trading attention, how can they use this to compete with the big dogs, the Fortune 500 companies?

It's the first time we can.

You know, because for the first time ever, the creative is the variable of the reach.

And that's marketing jargon.

So let me say it again.

For the first time ever, how good your picture or video is can lead to millions of people seeing it that never existed before in the history of time.

You'd have to be on television.

or on the biggest magazine or newspaper to ever get a million people in America or the world to know anything.

And you'd have to spend millions of dollars for that.

Now, every day, we all know, every day that happens to somebody.

Now, what we've also learned is just because you go viral once doesn't mean you're going to be a billionaire.

It usually means that you're going to have this moment that you refer to your whole life and you're actually actually going to be sad six months later because you weren't able to capitalize it.

That goes into being a real entrepreneur.

But for the first time ever, entrepreneurs, you have a fighting chance.

Ember Chamberlain's coffee can compete with Folgers.

Charli D'Amilio's popcorn can compete.

Logan Paul and KSI's Energy Drink is really competing.

Mr.

Beast's Chocolate is really competing.

And they're the preview, not the anomaly.

I started a wine brand and sold it to Constellation for tens and tens of millions of dollars because I made organic content on the internet about wine and then started a wine brand.

That will be a very normal occurrence for a long time.

Well, Gary, this has been amazing.

This has been a masterclass in day trading attention and social media, marketing.

So I end my show with two questions.

I ask all my guests.

What is one actionable thing our young improfiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?

The number one thing they can do is to be honest with themselves.

Every single person, stop this podcast right now, go to the mirror and literally, actually tell yourself, what are you actually good at?

Not what would you wish you were good at.

What are you actually good at?

If you're asking me, I'm answering your question literally.

How to be more profitable?

is completely and utterly based on self-awareness of what you're good at and or what you like.

And most people lie to themselves because they hope instead of they're being real with themselves.

And what is your secret to profiting in life?

And this can go beyond business and money

by giving more than you're taking.

Amazing.

I believe the number one reason, I think we might have just touched on it.

I talked about it yesterday and something I was doing.

The reason most people struggle on growing in social and in life is when they post on social and when they act in life, they worry about what's in it for them.

I'm looking to go viral.

I want to get followers.

I want to sell something.

If you think about your audience instead of you, the things you want will come to you.

Amazing.

Well, you're really easy to find.

So, where can everybody go find you?

I'm Gary V E E everywhere.

So that should be it.

Amazing.

I'll put all the links in the show notes.

Gary, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Five.

Thank you so much.

Yap gang, this conversation lit a fire in me, and I hope it did the same for you.

This interview was an absolute dream come true for me.

Sitting down with the Gary Vee in person at his office was totally surreal and it was an unforgettable moment for me.

I'm doing more of these in-person interviews and this one reminded me why I started Yap in the first place.

Gary Vee is the reason I became a podcaster.

He's the reason I built my personal brand on LinkedIn.

He inspired me to do so much of my journey and meeting him did not disappoint.

He's a real deal in real life.

He's not just an icon.

He truly cares about helping the next generation of entrepreneurs.

And today's conversation left me rejuvenated.

I love being an entrepreneur, but it's not easy.

And Gary reminded us that success isn't just about being fearless.

It's about acting despite fear.

He worked in his dad's wine store until he was 34, but that's not the part of the story that people glamorize, but that's where his greatness was actually forged.

He wasn't chasing fast money.

He was building a legacy.

He took risks.

He stayed curious.

He played the long game.

And he did it by being patient, experimenting constantly, and putting purpose over profit.

And that's why he's winning.

The truth is, entrepreneurship is not glamorous.

It's hard.

It's lonely.

It takes resilience and the willingness to fall and get back up again and again.

But if you feel that fire in you, don't let age, fear, or outside opinions hold you back.

I started this podcast at 30 years old, and all my friends told me I was too old to start a podcast, that it was too late to start a podcast.

But look at me now.

I have a top 100 podcast, a number one entrepreneurship podcast.

I have the number one self-improvement podcast network.

They call me the podcast princess.

If I had listened to my friends at that time and thought that I was too old to get started, none of this would exist right now.

Gary dropped a ton of gems on digital marketing.

We're in a war for attention.

The rules are changing fast.

To win, you've got to know your audience, your platforms, and your strengths inside and out.

He broke down the biggest shift happening right now, the TikTokification of social media.

Interest-based content and interest-based algorithms are running the game and relevancy is everything now.

This is a golden era for creators and creator entrepreneurs because anybody can compete with big brands if they truly understand what's trending, whether you have 100 million followers or just 100.

You don't need a huge team.

You don't need a huge following or budget to win anymore.

You just need to be plugged in.

And as Gary says, they trade attention like your business depends upon it.

All right, gang, thank you so much for spending your time with me on this Yap Live episode.

Seriously, it means the world to me that you chose to tune in to Young and Profiting Podcast and be a part of this conversation with the amazing Gary Vee.

And if you enjoyed this episode and learned something new, why not drop us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the show?

It helps us bring in new listeners and I'd be incredibly grateful for it.

And don't forget, you can now watch all of our live and in-person videos, just like this one, directly on Spotify Video.

We're now on Spotify Video.

You heard me right.

We're also, of course, on YouTube.

I've got 60,000 subscribers on YouTube right now.

If you're new to the show, be sure you hit that subscribe button and join us on YouTube to watch all of our videos.

I love to connect with you personally, so come find me on Instagram at Yap with Hala or LinkedIn.

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I love to converse with you guys in the DM, so don't be shy and reach out.

And before I sign off, I want to give a special shout out to Paul on my team, who is my producer.

He keeps the show running smoothly.

His attention to detail and behind-the-scenes coordinations is something that I'm so so grateful for.

Paul, thank you so much for all that you do.

I'm so grateful for you.

Until next time, this is Halataha, aka the podcast princess, signing off.