Killer Conversation: Rick Valentini aka Bryan Stewart

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Did you kill Jamie?

No.

Did you two fight that night?

Were you angry with her?

No, I've never killed anybody in my life.

Not ever.

Meet Brian Stewart, also known as Rick Valentini.

He was my first killer.

What do I mean by that?

Well, my name is Judy Ryback, and I'm a longtime 48 Hours producer.

Back in 2011, my very first assignment for 48 Hours was to convince the man with two names to do an interview with Aaron Moriarty.

He agreed under one condition that we only call him Brian.

You're not really Brian Stewart at all, are you?

To me, I am.

But not legally, are you?

Well, legally, I'm not anything.

That's the problem.

You're Rick Valentini.

His legal name was Rick, but we all agreed to call him Brian because he had just been convicted of the second-degree murder of his 32-year-old girlfriend, Jamie Laody.

And we wanted to hear his story, even though we knew it was mostly fiction.

Actually, he had run away from a life in Michigan.

He changed his name illegally, tricked Jamie into believing him, and killed her.

Our front row seat to this con man's relationship with the truth taught us so much about how the criminal mind works.

Things you don't learn in books.

I'm excited to be producing and hosting 48 Hours Killer Conversation and even more excited that Erin Moriarty is here to talk about her masterclass of an interview with my first killer, but definitely not hers, Brian Stewart.

Welcome, Erin.

Thank you so much for being here today.

I so appreciate it.

You are the hardest working woman in television, and I know you're taking this time out to be with us is a real gift.

But it's great, Judy, that you're doing killer conversation.

So tell me how how you prepare for these interviews, because I know you want to get at the truth, but that's not easy, right?

No, because realize that the defendant in this case probably knows the case better than anybody, if they were there or not there, but they know the facts of the case.

So you have to go in so prepared.

So I think my goal, I think your goal too, when you talk to someone, is to talk with them after really at the end of the process, after we've read every court document, spoken to everybody involved with the case, that's ideal.

Uh, because otherwise, you know, you can't, you don't know whether that person's telling you the truth or not, right?

Right.

And we do really do our homework going into these things.

You have to, yeah.

So, you asked Brian,

Rick, whatever his name is, uh, why he agreed to sit down with you, and this is what he had to say:

Why are you talking to us today?

I guess

to put out the truth, you know.

I mean, it really sounds...

I don't know how it sounds, but frankly speaking, from 2007 until now, I am the only human being who knows what happened.

I'm the only human being who knows why things happened,

when they happened.

Well, he's telling the truth on one thing.

He's the only living person

who knows what happened

because sadly, at the time we were doing this interview,

Jamie was still missing.

And so there was no one to contradict what he said.

Right, right.

He had a blank canvas to tell his story, right?

So let's talk about the backstory of this case.

In 2010, Jamie was 32 years old.

She went missing from her home in Chandler, Arizona.

Police couldn't find her or her body.

Some people thought she might have picked up and just disappeared, taken off.

But once police got involved, almost everyone believed that she was dead, right?

Right.

And one of the sad parts of this story is Jamie was a very private person.

She didn't share a lot, even with her close friends.

So when she first disappeared, nobody really thought that much about it.

But then after a few weeks, then they started getting worried.

And once it was clear that she was missing, the most obvious person of interest was, of course, Brian.

When the police caught up with him, he was driving her car, he had her IDs.

And at trial, the 42-year-old got 54 years behind bars for murder and for fraud.

Right.

It's really remarkable.

So you do work on a lot of wrongful convictions.

How do you know when someone is lying to you?

Well, some people are obvious.

They really are.

I just interviewed an individual last year who, when he talked to me, he contradicted the evidence.

I mean, you know, and he knew it.

He didn't even seem to be bothered.

But there are other people.

Remember, these individuals who are accused of a crime know the case better than anyone, know the details better than anyone, and sometimes can twist it and make you believe.

Right.

Although in this case, it was pretty obvious.

Yes, yes, it was.

But also because he contradicted the evidence as well.

So.

Right, right.

The circumstantial evidence was really strong.

You yourself, you know, I wasn't the only one.

I talked to him after you had talked to him.

You spent hours on the phone with him and in person.

Did you at first think he was telling the truth?

Or was there a time when you realized this guy's lying?

So I went into this having already read, you know, everything that was available to me.

And I had spoken to the cops and the prosecutor.

So I kind of knew what the story was.

But yeah, I sent him a letter and because that's what we have to do.

We have to send them a letter, set up an account for them to call us.

And he slowly started calling me.

And,

you know, at first it was very, you know, surface conversation.

And then we started digging into his case a little bit more and I spent so many hours.

He, I think he called me every day for a while because he was bored, right?

He was bored and

he was testing me.

And then I went to Phoenix to sit through his entire trial and I would visit him once a week.

You know, Arpaio, Sheriff Arpaio, would let me visit him once a week.

And I remember the first time I went to visit him, they left me in a room with him.

I mean, he was shackled and there was someone in the the room with us, but I was in there for four hours with him.

And he just told his whole story.

And I remember thinking, oh, I have to go back to the hotel and make notes so I don't forget anything.

But then every week, I heard the same thing over and over and over again.

So at some point, I mean, without actually rolling my eyes back in my head, my eyes were rolling back in my head.

Kind of sad that someone that smart

and who could have had a decent life would run cons the way he did.

He was a very, very troubled person.

Yeah, yeah.

So let's talk about, you know, who he was before this.

Well,

we know now that he had, this was actually a surprising detail, that he had had three ex-wives, I believe, because he was, he seemed pretty young to me.

I was, you know, in his 40s.

Turned out he was.

little older than what he said he was, but

three ex-wives.

And

what one of his ex-wives said was that he was just running away from paying the debt he had for child,

for child support.

But what I think is, I mean, he was really running, not just from the fact he owed money, but from his life, because I interviewed one of his daughters.

And

it was a very sad conversation.

She never heard from him.

He had no interest in her life.

So he was running away from from everything in michigan uh debt and the people right had been in his life in michigan right you wanted to start over um so it wasn't easy for rick to change his name to brian illegally he literally had to make a whole new person um but he makes it sound like it was no big deal

How long does it take to change your identity?

Takes a while, doesn't it?

Year, year and a half, yeah.

So, I mean,

it depends.

But why not?

Why not change your name legally?

Just do it legally.

Why go to the trouble of forging a birth certificate?

Well, it was my understanding that to change your name legally would take years.

That's actually not true.

It's not easy, but it doesn't take years.

In Michigan and Arizona, it would have only taken four to six months.

So what he did was much harder.

So he changed his identity post 9-11 when authorities were really trying to clamp down on fake IDs

and they were really worried about airport security.

He used somebody else's Social Security number, forged a new birth certificate, made himself eight years younger.

I wish I could do this.

Why not?

Yes.

He took in a roommate.

I hope people can see I'm using quotation marks, those air quotation marks, Brian stewart and about a year later brian stewart who shared the same address as rick had a credit score a birth certificate and other id and credit cards and so it wasn't too tough for rick valentini to slip into the persona of brian right so in october 2001 Rick Valentini disappeared from Michigan and headed to Arizona.

When I left Michigan, driving from Michigan to Arizona, Arizona,

that's all I did.

Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart.

I was always saying, listening for Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, because it's a new name.

The whole point of coming to Arizona was not to be a burden.

I wanted to be my own person.

I wanted to be free.

I wanted to, at some point, go back to my family on my terms.

to say

it doesn't matter what happened in the past.

It doesn't matter

the mistakes that were made or all this.

Look, I'm successful and I've done it and I'm happy and I've found love and joy in my life and

I actually help people and,

you know, and I love doing what I do.

So the scary thing is, is that anyone who did a background check on Brian Stewart found nothing.

He was clean, right?

So he actually got a job.

Yeah, he was a personal trainer at Gold Gym in Scottsdale.

And I guess that's what he meant when he says that he was helping people and that he loved it.

And he was doing well.

Right, right.

And again, the sad thing is, okay, so you're starting over again.

And he still couldn't get it right, right?

He still messed it up.

And then he got really cocky and he decided to pretend to be a graduate of the University of Michigan.

Yeah, but that fits in.

Remember when he said that he could be really successful?

Going to the University of Michigan.

Now remember, I went to Ohio State, so this is very hard for me to say, but that going to the University of Michigan shows that you are a smart person.

It's hard to get in there.

It's a great school.

So having that, pretending to be a graduate of the University of Michigan, burnished his image, made him look like this smart, accomplished guy.

And he was from Michigan.

And growing up,

he loved University of Michigan.

And so it wasn't hard to pull that off.

Right, because he's mixing truth and lies together, right?

Well, that's what all good liars do.

There's always some, and we find that all the time.

What do you think Jamie saw in Brian Stewart?

Well, you know, if we're going to be impartial, I think there's a quirkiness, a kind of a charming personality in a quirky way with Brian.

I think that she was lonely.

She didn't have family or friends in Arizona.

And so he provided companionship.

And

he, you know, he's kind of fun to be with.

She had a

tough relationship with her parents.

They wanted her to be a doctor and she didn't live up to that.

So I think she felt she disappointed them.

So she wasn't as close with her parents.

So here she is on her own.

And, you know, you've got this guy who went to University of Michigan.

They have, that's what he says.

So she thinks she has something in common.

And, you know, they're cheering together during all the games.

It makes me sad to even think about it.

So sad.

Yeah, we called this hour the stranger beside me.

And it really was.

He was the stranger beside her.

So by the time Jamie disappeared, she and Brian were so isolated from just about everyone that it took months for anyone to even notice that she was gone.

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Brian and Jamie dated for a little over two years, and Brian says that sometime in the summer of 2008, Jamie let him move into her house.

In an email, Jamie described you as her trophy boyfriend and

you know, she was the one who was spending all the money.

Did that bother you?

No, because I never knew that she said that.

Did she pay most of the bills?

Most of the big ones, yeah.

She bought two cars.

Right.

And the other car you drove.

Right.

She bought a truck, an SUV.

So she made a lot more money than you did.

Sure.

So.

Was that hard?

You were pretty dependent on her financially.

Was that tough?

No, I didn't really feel that way.

I just felt like

it was definitely easier to live with her.

And it was easier that way because

we still looked upon our future

as being together.

We were going to get married.

Do you think they were going to get married?

No, no.

When he said it was easier living with her, that's what he meant.

You know, he was having all his bills paid and

he could do whatever he wanted.

So in August 2009, Jamie lost her job.

The real estate market crashed.

The financial crisis hit her hard.

What do you think was going on in that relationship at that point?

Well, we don't know, but we know that she was supporting him.

I doubt if he was

emotionally supportive for her

going through something like this.

And

her joblessness went on for a while, which must have been very difficult for a woman who was used to succeeding and making a lot of money and doing well.

She didn't tell her friends, you know, much about how she felt about what was going on.

And she was actually out of work for months.

She was applying for jobs all over the country: New Jersey, Florida, Denver, Colorado.

And eventually, she did get a job in Arizona in again in medical sales.

But on March 17th, 2010, it was her third day on the job.

Brian claims that he was at Jamie's house when she got home from work.

I just remember that

she had come home,

she was in scrubs, threw her hands up in the air, totally exasperated.

So it's like,

you know, you seem aggravated.

What's going on?

You know, and she's just

I can't take I'm not going back there this it was absolutely crazy and she's talking about her new job yeah and it and I'm like wow okay well

what happened what's going on and she's like well you know it was you know I get there and and

you know she's like I just kind of sort of had a bad feeling

that totally contradicts the friend who helped her get that job,

who reported she was excited about the job.

She finally had a job um

you know brian rick whatever you want to call him also said something like well there was a creepy guy at the job and she wanted to get away from him i don't believe either one of those

So he was talking in circles and you kept trying to bring him back to exactly what happened that night.

Tell me what happened that night.

And I love this next moment because you were starting to get so frustrated with him.

You accidentally or not called called him by his real name.

Well, remember, that was one of the conditions that I had to call him Brian.

Right.

So he got a little annoyed.

Let's listen to this.

What happened that night, Rick?

Brian.

What happened that night?

That was when she came in and

asked me to take a week off from work.

And

I was like,

well,

when?

And she's like, well,

in the next day or two, you know, next couple days.

I can't do that.

What are you talking about?

What's going on?

And she's like,

we need to, we're going to go to Denver.

We're going to get a house.

You know, I've got a job offer up there.

It's time to go.

I want to go.

I want to get out of this state.

Well, okay, this is awfully short notice.

You know,

and then it was,

I want to go to Denver.

We need to go.

We need to find a house and

we're going to get married.

Well, now wait a second.

Now, you and I know the rules here, okay?

I'm not getting married to you until I find out what the heck's going on between you and your dad.

This is where it really gets crazy.

So he's taking two truths and using them to lie to you to your face.

Right.

So

as we mentioned, she did have a complicated relationship with her parents.

And so, and

Rick Brian, Brian,

clearly knew about it and wanted to use that.

And then, of course, he used a truth.

When she was, as I had mentioned earlier, she was looking for a job.

She was looking in Denver, Colorado for a job and had hoped to get one, but she did not get that job.

I just can't get over how he just calmly sits there and makes up these stories to your face i mean he had already done it on the witness stand too right right but also it was his entire life he had lied his entire life that was the one thing we always heard about him he's a liar and um and sometimes people like they think oh particularly women oh she'll believe me and um so yeah he yeah his face ever changed whether he was telling the truth or not his face is the same well that that's a good point because i felt like he was looking at me as a woman, like a dumb woman every time.

And so I just kind of let him believe that about me.

You know, I was a very good listener.

He never asked me a single question whenever I talked to him.

It was always him running his stories by me.

And I just listened, just listened.

He probably was trying to figure out what seemed to stick and what didn't.

Definitely, yes.

What would work?

What seemed to really resonate with you?

Yeah, yeah.

Can I take a minute to tell you, I don't know if you remember the story, but I was with him once

on one of our visits.

And

I had said to them, please don't leave me in the room with him for four hours again.

I said, just give me two hours and then come knock on the door.

And I always had to have a guard with me, right?

So this guard kept like, he was so bored listening to this guy go on and on.

He kept leaning out the door to see if they were coming to save us.

And at one point, he stepped out and the door smacked shut behind him.

And without missing a beat, Brian, Rick, Brian, says, quick, take off your clothes and get on the table.

And I laughed and I said, oh, come on.

But like, that's how he was treating me.

That is the creepiest.

I remember this now, but that is one of the creepiest stories.

That's what you don't want to happen.

Right?

It was so bizarre.

Anyway, after a little over two years, he says it was a drama-free breakup.

I mean, come on.

She was leaving and he was taking his things and going.

And he says they even slept in the same bed and he left the next morning for work.

Jamie was missing for nearly two and a half months and no one even noticed.

I think her friend said the same thing, that it did take a while, but then people started noticing that she was not posting or emailing anybody.

So, you know, it's a little bit like telephone.

Has anybody heard from Jamie?

Has anybody heard from Jamie?

and so he's realizing that people are going to start looking at at him as well so he wants to look like another concerned person where's jamie and so he calls someone and and says look you know uh i'm worried about her and the other thing i think really plays a part in this and this is so sad we heard this over and over again from her friends you don't know somebody who's gonna disappear like this so it was hard for people to believe that

her boyfriend would do away with her.

They just didn't believe it.

That doesn't happen to people you know is what we hear all the time on 48 hours.

And we really heard it with this case.

That's so true.

Yeah.

Well, it's interesting that as soon as the police, you know, they started looking because people.

reported him missing her her parents reported her missing and and they do track him down and he's driving her car and even they thought he was a little odd so that's the reason why they wanted to check him out

police arrested him on a warrant for driving on a suspended license and took him in for questioning and they held him on charges of forgery and identity theft until they could make a case for murder When they asked him where Jamie was, this is what he told detectives.

So Thursday morning, I'm up at 2.30, take my shower, eat breakfast, and I'm out the door by 3.45.

That's the last I saw of her.

I got home around noon.

There were two of the big suitcases missing.

There was a carry-on missing,

and she was gone.

Detectives searched Jamie's home, and her suitcases were still there.

The car that she drove was also there, and so was her passport, but her wallet and credit cards and driver's license were missing.

Then with Brian in custody, they got a warrant to search his apartment and found some really alarming evidence.

What I probably will never forget the rest of my life, because it's so disturbing, is when they went to the apartment

he had rented right before, quote unquote,

you know, she disappeared.

They found her wallet and

several of her credit cards were on the desk.

And what was saddest to me was in an envelope, they found all these little cut-up pieces of what turned out to be her driver's license.

Right.

And, you know, her cell phone was also at his apartment.

But as usual, you know,

Brian is not phased by this very damaging evidence.

And he had an explanation for all of this.

And I don't think anyone listening is going to believe it, but this is what he claimed.

She's still alive.

So this, all this hubbub is a lot of horse crap.

What do you mean she's still alive?

You're saying Jamie is still alive?

She's still alive.

How do you know?

Because

until I'm proven differently, I know what her plans were.

I know what she wanted to do.

I know what she wanted to accomplish.

Which was leave Arizona and get away from her dad.

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Are you saying that you helped Jamie

change her identity?

Yeah, I showed her how to do it.

So are you saying that you made up the idea that she had a job in Denver?

No, uh-uh.

He's now totally changing his story.

First, he's telling you Jamie went to Denver and now she didn't go to Denver.

She just got up and disappeared to get away from her dad, who, as we mentioned before, she did have a complicated relationship with.

What is he trying to say?

He's now saying that she was so tired of her own life that she asked him how he did it.

And what's so hard about that is this was, again, this very accomplished woman and very buttoned down.

And would she do something like that?

Right.

Do you think she knew that he had changed his identity?

Do you think she found out?

No.

Well, she might have found out.

Right.

something happened that night so maybe she did find out maybe during that time off she was looking into him without a job when i say time off when she wasn't working she looked into him something happened on march 17th

so um okay so he's changing his story now did she go to denver did she disappear this is what you asked him

So did she have that job?

Did she take a job in Denver or not?

I don't know.

So what name is she?

What name is she operating?

Oh, I don't know that.

What do you mean?

If you helped her, wouldn't you know what name is she?

Well, you have to understand, I helped her from a general standpoint.

I showed her how I did it.

Okay.

Now,

there were books.

Okay.

She read the books.

She knew they were there.

She had all of that.

Plus, she had me.

And that was the thing that I told her: is that the real key is you got to have money.

You got to have cash.

Okay.

She didn't have any cash.

Oh, she had, well, she didn't have any cash.

Brian, all her money, she left behind all her credit cards.

She left behind all her accounts.

Sure.

You know, I mean, he wasn't expecting that I would know that

she had money still sitting in her account.

She simply disappeared.

And I think what's really important to know is that she didn't have a reason to disappear.

Right.

She didn't have a reason.

She had a brand new job.

She wasn't running from things.

She didn't have ex-husbands or children she didn't want to pay child support for.

There was no reason for her to want to change.

This next exchange kept me from dating online for many, many years, for a decade.

You used your credit cards to go on dating sites.

That's nervy, isn't it?

Yeah, it's pretty nervy.

And pretty insensitive, too, isn't it?

Yeah.

You know, a little, because, well, let me explain.

You used her credit cards to go on dating sites to meet other women.

Well, you know what?

Look, Jamie, Jamie was leaving.

Jamie had her own life to live.

So you used your own money.

Why did you use hers?

Well, I did.

Okay, that was the whole point.

When you asked him what gave him the right to use Jamie's credit cards, he said he was doing it for her.

Can you explain that rationale, please?

Well, I can't really explain it.

I could tell you what his thoughts were.

I mean, I was so offended by that.

As a reporter and a woman, the idea that he would claim to me, here she disappeared, she left behind the credit cards,

and that he used those credit cards to meet other people was so offensive.

But what he claimed was she was still alive.

I know nobody will believe me, but this is what he said, that she was still alive.

And he was giving her cash and leaving it at her house where she would come in, I guess, in the middle of the night, pick it up, and then disappear again.

I mean, who's going to believe that?

But he said it to me just like that was the most normal thing to say.

Yeah, it's super crazy.

So this next exchange feels to me like the final car chase in a movie.

It seems to me that when you're preparing for trial, if you could have found her, you would have found her with your lawyers.

That's all you would have needed and you wouldn't have gone on trial at all.

Well, now, okay, just because I could have sent her an email, just because I could have called a number, doesn't mean that she wouldn't have switched it out at that point.

Okay?

Because...

But you didn't even try.

How am I supposed to try?

She's gone.

No one sees her again, March 18th.

Jamie's dead, isn't she?

It's not hard to get new ID.

You said it takes time.

You yourself said that, Brian.

I said it takes time.

She didn't have that time.

I said it takes time to create a new persona.

To get the ID is nothing.

Right.

She didn't have the time to create the new persona.

Yes, she did.

Jamie took $100,000

and

what could be three different identifications, and she left the state of Arizona.

Do you remember how you felt in that moment?

Well, it's just like, where do you go with that?

This is a man.

I mean, what was really sad?

I mean, what I was trying to make a point there, he's saying she's still alive and he's on trial for her murder.

And if she was still alive, he would have reached out to her and said, save me, prove, please, that I didn't kill you.

I mean,

what you have to be thinking as you're sitting there when you're talking is he killed her.

And he has the nerve to sit there and say she's still alive.

It's not only old, it's just incredibly sad and aggravating.

Yes, very.

He was called to the stand, the witness stand, as Rick Wayne Valentini, aka Brian Stewart, but his lawyer called him Brian.

I mean, so crazy.

She walked him through his name change and the rest of his story gently, and then the prosecutor, Juan Martinez,

took over and pounded him.

I mean,

I remember the judge basically outside of the view of the jury saying, we get it, we get it, you know?

So just after he was convicted and prior to his sentencing, he agreed to an interview with you.

What do you recall about that day?

Well, actually, you made me remember all of this.

You know, we had amazing access.

I've never had that kind of access inside a prison.

The day that we were with him, his lawyer came to see him and was shocked to hear that we were there because he had not told her he was talking to the press.

That is a nightmare for a defense attorney.

I mean, he lied to everyone, including his own lawyer.

All along, you've told a lot of different stories.

Sure.

And they're contradictory stories.

Sure.

I mean, you admit you've lied about things.

Sure.

Why should somebody believe you now?

I'm not asking for people to believe me.

I'm not,

you know,

to me.

I don't really care

what people think.

I think he does care, but so have you heard it all from him?

No, which is, you know, oddly upsetting.

They go away and they never call me again.

But the last conversation I had with him, I was at the airport on my way home after all of, you know, after the interview.

And

he asked me, he started asking me questions, which he had never done.

Like, what's your last name?

And, oh, are you Jewish?

And it was so bizarre.

Like all of a sudden he's interested in me, which was sort of creepy, right?

And I remember calling my best friend at the time and saying, you know, I actually feel bad for this knucklehead.

Like he just, you know, he just doesn't get it.

He can't get out of his own way.

And she said to me, save that for someone who deserves it.

I agree with her.

So I, yeah, I do think that because you spent so much time with him, that you saw him more

as

this guy who could have had a great future and threw it away.

He was, he hurt himself.

I saw him as I couldn't get past, he was a con man who killed this young woman who did have a great future and was just looking for

how she could succeed and impress her parents.

And he took that all away from all of them.

Her parents were wonderful, sweet people who,

you know,

blamed themselves in part.

They felt they might have been too tough on her and they never got a chance to say that to her.

Yeah, they were very sweet.

And I remember her mother saying she carries her receiving blanket with her for the day that they find her.

It was so sad.

And that turned out to be very important years later.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I don't know, six and a half years later, I was in Italy on vacation and my phone rang and it was one of the detectives.

And when a detective calls me, I always answer.

And he said, you're not going to believe this, but they found Jamie's body.

And they did.

It still makes me sad because we did.

you and I both talked to him

afterwards.

And what struck me was how moved they were and happy that they were able to finally bring her home to her parents.

And so,

you know, the parents will continue grieving, but at least it, there's like a

bit of closure to that.

They know,

they know he murdered her.

They know where he put her, and they could bury her themselves.

Yeah.

And that's always so important to these families, right?

They just want their, they want their people home.

They want to know where they are.

They want to be able to grieve properly because sometimes when you don't know, and I've done too many of these stories where the person has not been found,

that

really kind of gets in the way of the parents grieving properly because there's so much guilt.

I should be looking for.

I didn't do enough to look for.

And so finally, these parents can say, she's at rest and we can mourn her properly.

So, Erin, ultimately, what's the lesson of

this case?

What should our audience take away from this?

Well, sadly, I think it is that I keep thinking of our friends.

Oh, this doesn't happen to us.

And yet it does.

Time and time again, sadly at 48 hours.

If you're worried of you're seeing signs of a problem in a relationship, you tell your friend or your sister or your, you know, whoever you know.

And

you, when someone doesn't respond, disappear for a while, you,

you know, you don't let that go.

You don't just assume they're fine.

This is a reminder to all of us to stay in touch with the people we care about.

It's so true.

So true.

Well, thank you again for joining me for this podcast.

You know, again, it was my first hour for 48 hours and now my first podcast for 48 hours.

And it's such a pleasure having you.

But you know what?

There'll be plenty of conversations with killers.

On the next episode of Killer Conversation, Peter Van Sand joins me again, this time to discuss two infamous teenage killers who made headlines around the world, but only granted interviews to Peter for 48 hours.

Atif, did you and Sebastian Burns meticulously plan the murder of your family?

Absolutely not.

48 Hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback.

Our story editor is Maura Walls.

Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound design, fact-checking, and additional production support from Rebecca LaFlum.

And special thanks to 48 Hours executive producer Judy Tygard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus.

Follow and listen to Killer Conversation on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Tune in next Tuesday for an all-new episode of Killer Conversation.

Follow Killer Conversation on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.