Public Defenders: "Incarceration Doesn't Make Us Safe" [TEASER]

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She just said we fucking killed this, bro.

Hey, y'all, it's Rhiannon.

Today, we are releasing a special episode of 5-4, an episode that will be part of a series I'm doing about social justice lawyering and the work of progressive and leftist lawyers.

We talk so much on the show about the evil being done in the law, and I want to talk about good work for a change.

I want listeners to hear about the lawyers on the front lines in legal battles to protect protect the most vulnerable, to make the law work for all of us, and to build a just future.

This episode is about public defenders and gun control. Last year, the Supreme Court heard New York State Rifle and Pistol Association v.

Bruin, a case about whether New York's gun licensing laws violated the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.

While gun control advocates and many liberals said that the restrictions on gun ownership in New York were necessary to prevent gun violence, a group of public defenders filed a brief in the case, arguing that the licensing regime should be struck down, not just because it violated the Second Amendment, but because it was also selectively and disproportionately enforced against their clients, poor black and brown people in New York City.

In the end, the Supreme Court did strike down the gun licensing laws, and the public defenders took some criticism for their support of the ideologically conservative holding.

Last month, I spoke to three of these public defenders about the brief and why they wrote it, about what public safety really means in a society addicted to incarceration, and what's happened for their clients since the licensing laws were struck down.

This is 5-4, a podcast about how much the Supreme Court sucks.

Welcome to 5-4, where we dissect and analyze the Supreme Court decisions that suck shit. I'm Rhiannon, and I'm here without Peter or Michael today because this is a very special episode.

And I said, sorry, no boys allowed. Just kidding, some boys are here.

This special episode is hopefully the start of a mini series of sorts where I plan on talking to attorneys who are doing new and innovative work to advance progressive or leftist values in the law.

I want to hear from across different areas of the law. I want to be talking to people about what it means to be a leftist lawyer.
What is movement lawyering? What is abolitionist lawyering?

What arguments are we making to protect the environment, to get people out of jail, to build power in the labor movement, to advance tenants' rights and access to housing, et cetera, et cetera?

So to kick it off, I am really thrilled to be chatting with three attorneys from the Bronx Defenders today. The Bronx Defenders is the public defender office in the Bronx in New York City.

We will be talking today about Nyserpa v.

Bruin, the case from last term where the Supreme Court, in a majority opinion written by Clarence Thomas, struck down New York's gun licensing regime because they said it violated the Second Amendment.

But more specifically, we'll be talking about the amicus brief that these attorneys wrote and filed in the case, arguing that the so-called gun control laws should be struck down because it was harming their clients, who are poor black and brown people in New York City.

I think we should just jump in. So let's have the three of you introduce yourselves.
Tell us your name, maybe how long you've been a public defender, anything else about yourself you'd like to share.

Amy, you want to start? Sure. My name is Amy Carlisle.
I'm a senior attorney in the legal department of the criminal defense practice at the Bronx Defenders.

I've been a public defender for almost seven years. Gorgeous.

I'm Christopher Smith. I am an attorney in the early defense practice.
That's where you can call our hotline and get help if you need it. And I believe I'm starting my sixth year.
Is that right?

Did you graduate together or not?

No, we started together.

Just Just lose track after you get to be mine.

My name is Michael Thomas. I'm also an attorney in the early defense practice and one of the team leaders.
I've been practicing for a little over five years. Great.

Really, really excited to have you guys. Thank you so much for making this happen.
I think this is just really interesting what you guys have done with this brief.

And I'm thrilled to talk about it because I think our listeners will really, really enjoy hearing about this. So let's just start big picture with like just a reminder of some vocabulary, right?

Not all of our listeners are lawyers or law students. So could one of you tell us what is an amicus brief? What does it do? An amicus brief is basically another word for a friend of the court brief.

It's something that can happen in all kinds of cases. Individuals, organizations can all just submit a brief, which is a legal document, to the court, kind of explaining their perspective.

Honestly, they come in all flavors.

There are some that are very creative, like not a lot of legal argument, and some like ours that have a ton of legal argument and very persuasive, and we think strong writing.

And before we get into your argument in this brief, can you tell us kind of like what was the state of the law before the court struck it down?

Like, what was the gun control law that was at issue here?

So, the way it was set up, New York had a May issue licensing setup, which meant that for folks who wanted to get a concealed carry license, they would have to apply.

And there was no actual requirement that they actually receive the license.

It was ultimately up to the NYPD. Right.
It's completely discretionary, right? You couldn't like check off boxes like I qualify with XYZ.

It was still completely discretionary, whether or not you got that license or not, right? Yeah, exactly.

And most of of the people who were able to get it were either former law enforcement judges or like very wealthy celebrities like Donald Trump.

And disproportionately lived in areas like Staten Island or Riverdale. Right.
Definitely not in the Bronx. Yeah.
Getting one of these licenses.

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