The Antisemitism Panic (with Matt Lieb)

You should not start making Miss Rachel your target because if you make people in America choose between abandoning Miss Rachel and supporting Hamas,

everyone is going to choose Hamas.

Hello, hello, and welcome back to A Bit Fruity.

I'm Matt Bernstein.

This is a big one.

This has been a long time coming.

Strap in.

This is one that we have wanted to make, that we have needed to make, and we are making it.

There has been a lot of crazy shit happening in this country in the name of Jewish safety.

The Trump administration has terminated nearly $3 billion in federal research grants for Harvard and is trying to prevent the school from enrolling any international students, in large part because of the school's, quote, failure to address anti-Semitism on campus.

Trump has waged a similar war against other universities like Columbia, which, unlike Harvard, completely capitulated to Trump and oversaw Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, enter its campus and kidnap students who had participated in Free Palestine protests.

A group called Stop Anti-Semitism is calling on the U.S.

Attorney General Pam Bondi to investigate children's YouTuber Miss Rachel, who they accuse of being funded by Hamas because she makes videos with Palestinian child amputees.

More on that later.

The same stop anti-Semitism group lobbied Delta Airlines to fire a flight attendant who wore a Palestinian flag pin, which Delta agreed to investigate.

People are being deported and having their green cards revoked over accusations of anti-Semitism by an administration that somehow also employs a guy who did a Hitler salute and another who thinks COVID was a bioweapon designed to spare Jews.

Democratic principles like free speech and the right to a fair trial are being trampled, apparently because all of the people in charge are just really concerned with Jewish safety.

And as a Jew, I'm confused.

Every time I see these posts that are like, check on your Jewish friends, they're not okay right now.

I'm like, genuinely, what are you talking about?

I mean, I'm not okay.

To be clear, I'm not okay.

But that is between my psychiatrist and I, and it is unrelated to a flight attendant with a Palestinian flag pin, I promise.

When these people in the Trump administration and on CNN and the conservative networks and the liberal networks talk about rampant anti-Semitism on campus, I honestly don't really know what they're referring to.

And I'm very fucking uncomfortable with what's being done in this country supposedly in the name of my safety.

I think bad faith interpretations of anti-Semitism are actually about an agenda that has nothing to do with Jewish safety at all.

And I think our identities are being weaponized to achieve something much much darker that a lot of people seem to be missing.

So that's kind of what we're going to talk about today.

And I know it's heavy.

A lot of things we talk about on this podcast are heavy, but we're going to find ways to bring levity.

We're going to make this entertaining.

I promise if it's the last thing I do, we will talk about influencers.

To help me do this podcast today, I have enlisted two of my very favorite Jews.

Most of the podcast will be done alongside my fellow Jewish podcast Matt, Matt Lieb, who is a comedian and the host of the Bad Hasfara podcast.

And a little later on, we will hear from another friend of mine who asked that they remain anonymous, which I totally understand.

This kind of stuff can be really hard to litigate, especially publicly when there is so much harassment for anyone, especially any Jewish person who chooses to speak out about it.

They have such unbelievable wisdom and knowledge about the subject at hand.

So we're going to hear from them a little later in the show.

Matt, and welcome to the show.

With regard to this topic, how are you guys feeling right now?

I love this topic.

It is all I is all I've been talking about for the last 18 months.

Something I used to only talk about in much smaller, more niche circles.

And it's nice to have more and more people interested in this.

So, I'm feeling good about it.

I would say that I've been doing work against anti-Semitism for a long time, and

starting around 2015-2016 started to recognize the ways in which the distortion of anti-Semitism and Jewish fear was being weaponized and it has been increasing and at this moment it's on such hyperdrive that it's gone from this very niche topic to the front page of you know, any publication.

But yeah, like you were saying, Matt, it's also that it's so rampant that it's being exposed.

And that is actually really helpful for people being able to counter it.

So the way that we're going to break up this episode is we are going to hear chiefly from Matt and Matt, the two Matts, in the first half as we go through some of the shadowy internet figures who have been really pushing this distortion of anti-Semitism for incredibly fascist means.

And then in the second half, we are going to have

explain to us kind of what's going on beneath the surface here as it pertains to the Trump administration and how they are weaponizing Jewish fear.

Matt, I want to start with a video

that

we are going to watch together.

And this video is from a one, Lizzie Savetsky.

And if you don't know who Lizzie Savecky is, you will in a minute.

But first, let's just watch the video.

I want to check in with everyone.

It has been a really rough couple of days because the tragic murder of Sarah and Yaron brings up so much trauma that we have been holding for the past 19 months, sure, but I don't know, thousands of years.

Anti-Semitism has existed since the Jewish people existed.

We know this.

To feel unsafe in our own country is a new feeling for our generation of Jews.

The concept of Jews who have never even thought about an assault weapon, buying guns, because we can't rely on anyone else to protect our community.

You know how many members of my synagogue, how many Jewish people that I know who you would never think have a gun have a gun because we need to protect our own community?

You know something?

Fear is not an emotion that I have very often.

I'm always way more angry and passionate than I am afraid.

But today I was scared for the first time and I can't even tell you how long.

I was in a taxi and the driver was listening to this loud and angry sermon and they kept yelling, Aloha!

And I was scared.

I normally don't care.

I am loud and proud.

Come and get me.

But I was scared today.

We should not have to feel afraid to walk down the street because of our identity, because we were born as Jews.

That's the reality that every single Jew I know is feeling right now in this country.

Okay.

All right.

What a harrowing story.

She felt fear for the first time in her life and decided to buy a gun because she had a Muslim Uber driver who was listening to a sermon.

Yeah, she was in a cab and she heard someone say, Allahu Akbar.

And for the first time in her entire adult life, she felt fear.

It's ridiculous.

I don't know what to do with somebody like that.

It is not justified for you to feel fear of someone who is listening to a sermon in a cab.

Like, that's it's a strange thing to be like, well, certainly the world should cater to my own personal fear, you know?

A hundred percent.

And we're going to get into a lot of people who are doing this wild distortion of anti-Semitism.

And a lot of them, and a lot of the most powerful ones doing it, aren't Jewish.

But there are some people like this

who will do this refrain of like, every Jewish person I know is terrified.

And I'm like, who do you know?

And look, I'm not trying to be like a pick-me.

And I want to say right up front, I'm not saying that like anti-Semitism like doesn't exist.

I talk about anti-Semitism all the time, but this is just, I mean, this is crazy.

And it's so racist.

Yes, because she did not experience anti-Semitism in that cab.

What she experienced was her own Islamophobia.

And she's saying it out loud as if it's anti-Semitism.

And she's also, you know, she's speaking about the fear of two Israeli diplomats being killed in D.C., which is a fear I can understand if you are

going to present any other scenario in which you might feel fear.

Like, you know, people can feel fear in a synagogue because they're afraid of, you know, something happening.

You are in someone else's cab and just listening to something they're playing.

It's like saying, you know, I was walking,

you know, I was walking through the hood and I heard some rap music and I felt fear.

And it's like, okay, well, that's embarrassing for you.

I don't know what to tell you.

It actually, it reminds me of like, there's a lot of ways that fear of your own safety can be distorted to the point where you use it to hurt other people.

And it almost reminds me, I mean, it reminds me of like, like Emmett Till, like a white woman feared for her safety because a black child was walking past her.

And it's like, that's not actual fear, but the fact that you perceived it as such and then took up the mantle of that to hurt someone else is horrible.

And it's racist.

And so is this.

There's no self-reflection in it, too.

It's like she's not doing it because she wants to process the emotions of fear.

Like, why did I feel fear in this moment?

You know,

the alleged shooter of the Israeli diplomats was not an Arab Muslim.

So, why would I feel this fear?

Instead of trying to process it, it's a call to arms and a call to fear for everyone else.

You should be afraid.

It's fear-mongering, and that's all it is.

So, who is this woman?

Well, I would love to give you some background, even though Matt, I know you know who she is because we have talked about her and her shenanigans.

But for the average listener who is not spending their days focused on these wild Zionist mouthpieces on Instagram, let me explain.

Lizzie Savetsky is a 39-year-old Jewish-American influencer and self-identified Zionist activist, originally from Texas, now living in New York.

She has over 400,000 followers on Instagram, where she posts videos of her speaking direct to camera in her multi-million dollar Upper East Side apartment, talking about how scary it is to be a Jew right now.

She constantly thanks President Trump for standing up for Jewish safety.

She does photo shoots of her designer dresses made of Israeli flags, lots of image carousels of her frequent luxury resort vacations to Israel, tons and tons and tons and tons of content of her kids, oftentimes portraying them in fear of the Palestinian cause.

Like one video where she brought her young, like 10-ish-year-old daughter to a pro-Palestinian protest in New York, and then filmed her daughter crying because she was obviously startled by like the noise of a protest.

That's it's just like stuff like that is that's pathological.

It's weird.

It's one thing to try to fear monger and try to scare every Jew in the world.

It's another thing to do it directly to your daughter and then tape it and then send it out to everybody else.

A lot of her content combines the worst aspects of like mommy blogging with the worst aspects of Israeli Instagram propaganda in a way that's just like, this is actually the worst video you've ever seen.

Yeah.

In a, I don't know, in a period of my life where I've seen some of the most horrifying videos that I couldn't even imagine seeing, you know, two years ago, it's weird how traumatizing her mommy blog videos are regarding this subject matter because they do seem to be just abusing

her

own child for the sake of

support for Israel, which is, I mean, there's many ways to show your love for the nation.

That's one of the weirdest.

Let me give you a little bit of Lizzie Savetsky background because the lore is thick here.

So in 2009, a then 24, I'm going to say year old Lizzie Blum married Ira Savecky.

The two became a powerhouse, Israel-loving couple.

Ira became a well-to-do plastic surgeon in New York, while Lizzie grew an online presence as a fashion blogger.

In 2022, Lizzie was cast on The Real Housewives of New York, Roney, if you will.

But before the show ever aired, withdrew from the cast over what she called a torrent of anti-Semitism as a result of her casting.

She posted a big long statement that was like, the anti-Semitism was horrible and I had to withdraw from the cast.

Now, the other story here, the other side of this rony casting drama, which has basically since been admitted to on all sides of this situation, but Lizzie had been doing at the time, like a matchmaking series on Instagram where she paired people up.

And when a rony castmate of hers named Bryn Whitfield, who is biracial, asked Lizzie to set her up with someone, Lizzie told Bryn that she only works with Jews due to her, quote, anxieties about the continuity of her people.

A spat ensued between the women and the show producers, and Lizzie was ultimately terminated from the show after her husband, Ira,

used the N-word while describing the argument on set, which left show staff feeling uncomfortable.

Couldn't imagine why.

Oh my God.

It's such a crazy origin story because it is,

you know,

directly after all this happened, she, you know, claimed anti-Semitism was the reason, you know, she left the show.

And that is cover for her having this incredibly racist incident between her and another, you know, cast member or whatever you call it when it's reality TV.

Cast member, cast member.

Matt is like the third, I believe the third straight guy on the A Bit Fruity podcast.

So we have to, yes, it's cast member, even on reality TV, still cast member.

Listen, no disrespect to cast members of reality TV.

I just didn't know if they wanted to be called contestants or not.

But she's used smears of anti-Semitism in order to launder her own personal racism.

And this is something that she has carried on.

This tradition has been ever since this moment, she has used anti-Semitism to launder blatant racism.

It's like her villain origin story, you know?

It's like she fell in a vat of radioactive racism disguised as, you know, righteousness.

Yeah, exactly.

And I mean, like you said, I mean, this is something, the continuity of this theme throughout her entire body of work on Instagram today is so strong.

And I think it's just something that like this topic as a whole, the reason we're making this episode today, it's, I feel so strongly about this as a Jewish person.

And I can't be like, as a Jew without a bunch of like Zionists online calling me a pick-me and a self-hating Jew and whatever.

I don't really care what they say, but.

It drives me crazy when I see people like this using anti-Semitism as a catch-all to excuse horrible racist behavior.

And it makes me feel like I have to do a sanity check as a Jew.

Yeah, I mean, and it also is something that's not good for anti-Semitism.

It is crying wolf, and that is

not a good thing to do, especially considering the fact that if you claim to care about anti-Semitism, you certainly wouldn't want to water down the

alleged instances of it because we're coming to the point where now people just do not believe that there is anti-Semitism, which makes it very like that's actually kind of scary.

So to me, it's like looking at anti-Semitism in this very particular lens of I feel personal fear among certain issues.

I feel discomfort hearing other people who are not Jewish talk about Palestine or talk about Israel and saying that's the same kind of anti-Semitism that was experienced in, you know, the Pale of Settlement, you know, with like Jews experiencing pogroms.

It's like, this is not the same thing.

This is to compare them is to water down what people actually went through, you know?

100%.

So since October 7th, Lizzie has flown off the rails online and posted some of, as I've said, the craziest pro-Israel content I've ever seen.

We will watch a little more of it together in depth.

But, you know, she just, she does this.

She celebrated Mahmoud Khalil's potential deportation as a win for Jewish safety.

Shalom, Mahmoud.

That's right.

A judge has ruled that Mahmoud Khalil can now be deported over his involvement with anti-Israel demonstrations at Columbia University.

I can't express how big of a win this is.

In a direct-to-camera video where she's walking around a resort in Palm Beach,

This is the worst part about her is that she's doing these I'm scared videos with like just bags of clothes, like designer clothes she has just purchased.

And I'm like, at some point, it's like, is this a bit?

She doesn't even have like the acting commitment to like take off the makeup and like sit on the kitchen floor and film herself talking about how she feels unsafe.

Like she is fully like, I am unsafe at my like luxury five-star hotel in Palm Beach.

Like, and I'm the paradoxical absurdity, right, of being so racist, so antagonistic towards anyone who is even sympathetic to Palestinians while simultaneously claiming constant fear and victimhood as an American Jew, you know, living on the Upper East side with a plastic surgeon husband.

Like,

it's crazy making.

Yes, yes.

And it's, it, it, it, like, contributes to this feeling of collective gaslighting that I think we've all been going through, you know, for

almost two years now, uh, where we were constantly questioning our own sanity, you, but you don't look scared.

Like, you know, after October 7th, there was a huge boom in this like Zionist influencer content that was coming out and and there was a lot of different

angles that were being tested by either individual influencers or actually like israeli pr firms and the israeli government itself and one of them was the the hashtag would you hide me would you hide me

that's the same question my grandparents who were holocaust survivors asked their non-Jewish friends colleagues co-workers before they were taken away to the concentration camps

which is just one of the

just one of the most ridiculous sentiments that was happening because the people who were filming would you hide me videos were in luxury apartments or they were in you know like you said like upper east side new yorkers asking would you hide me

cheryl sandberg literal billionaire

saying would you hide me

and and the craziest thing about it was nobody knew what they were talking about because they were they were trying to draw comparisons to themselves and Anne Frank, which is

just offensive on its face.

But also, most people aren't going to be from, they know who Anne Frank is, but they don't know what this reference is.

And they don't know why you personally would be scared.

A lot of the times in the video, they would have to say that they're Jewish in order for it to make sense.

And I'm sorry, but you know, when it comes to the way in which anti-Semitism does happen in the United States, the fact is that these are a lot of them white women who, in order to claim that they are scared, they first need to give the proper context that they are Jewish.

And it's like, okay, but this is many steps.

At this point, what you're telling me is that you, as a white woman, are scared because of the fact that something that Hamas, which does not exist in the United States, like they're going to dig a tunnel through the

center of the earth and land in, you know, Soho.

Like

it just, to me, it was so, it was so ridiculous and so offensive to compare themselves to San Frank.

And I think to most people, they were watching it and going, why is everyone,

what is this?

What's happening here?

Yes.

And

because there is no evidence of these people who make this content like being harmed, they just have to invent it.

And so I want to watch a couple more Lizzie Savetsky videos.

I promise we'll move on from her.

I promise we will, but she's such a rich text and she's almost like a caricature of this issue.

And you don't have to move on for my sake, because I love this.

This is my favorite.

This one, I will also, I'll play it on the screen for those on YouTube, but for the audio version, maybe you could just describe what you're looking at as we watch.

All right, so it's a group of people.

It's like a family surrounding a laptop.

Anti-Semitism on campus has narrowed down the college options, it says

in a caption.

We wish all college campuses were safe for Jews.

And it looks like one of those videos where you're waiting to see whether you got into a college.

So the premise of this video is like,

It's like, where are my young children going to go to college?

And she's like placed her children around the laptop and told them to pretend to cry and they're all like covering their eyes being like we can't even go to college anymore because there's so much anti-semitism at all of them right we can't go to harvard lizzy is in the back like pretend hyperventilating it's the crazy it's this is actually one of the craziest things i've ever seen and yet it gets worse

i also just see these videos and it's like you are

feigning fear of not being able to send your students to college anywhere because there is so much alleged anti-Semitism that they won't be safe.

And it's like, you know what?

The last university in Gaza has been bombed to pieces.

Like, what are we doing here, really?

Yeah.

There are no schools for Palestinians anymore.

And that's like, you know, I think

underlying this whole thing,

that really, you know, gross feeling of watching this kind of content is

somehow somehow

you have made yourself and your family and every Jewish person you know

the victim in a situation in which what you are actually doing is advocating for the government of Israel, which is currently mass murdering women and children and men,

locking them up in droves,

you know, torturing them in prisons, bombing every hospital, every school,

every home, flattening it.

And people are looking at this, and

it is quite a contrast to go through your timeline on social media and see the destruction that Israel's wrought upon the people of Gaza.

And then Lizzie Savetsky being like,

I heard a Muslim say in Allahu Akbar in a cab, I'm going to go get a gun.

Like

to most normal people, we look at that and you go, it sounds like what you want to do is start shooting Muslims.

It doesn't sound like you're scared.

It sounds like you are ready to do your own pogrom.

And, you know, this is, it's,

it's been so strange to watch for anyone who's not a Zionist.

Well, you have teed me up perfectly for yet another Lizzie Savetsky video.

Beautiful.

Here we go.

If you're weak, you're dead.

I want respect.

And the visual of this video, again, if you're just listening, is Lizzie in a shooting range with a gun in her hands.

And the caption for this one is, quote, it's open hunting season on Jews.

Nobody is coming to save us.

Wake up, arm up, responsibly.

I love it, responsibly.

This is not about being cool or tough.

It's about survival.

I love, amidst this like crazy screet about, like, you need a gun right now.

She's like,

and if you choose to choose to get a gun, arm up responsibly.

It's quite as if any of this is responsible.

Yeah, this is the most irresponsible video

you've made today.

And I love the adding, be responsible about it.

Don't be weird about trying to get every Jew you know to own a gun and screaming, screaming it's open season on Jews or whatever.

Like none of this is responsible.

You've made your entire social media identity, your brand is the most irresponsible it could possibly be.

And also,

I'm like, I look at this and Lizzie specifically is such, you know, just a rebranded MAGA person.

Like everything you're seeing is just MAGA.

It's MAGA, but with Zionism attached to it as a way in order to be the victim of the situation.

Because she can't go around, like if she were not Jewish, she would just be like, white people are under attack.

We need to arm up.

That's what she would do.

But she has the luxury of being able to claim an actual like historic trauma as the reason why she's afraid, as opposed to, you know, most non-Jewish white people who get to just be like,

they don't base their fake trauma on anything other than they just feel bad.

They feel afraid.

They feel uncomfortable.

They don't like being around people of color.

They're afraid of them.

And we all in liberal society look at that and go like, you guys are weird.

You guys are weird, racist Klan members.

And in this case, she gets to avoid those accusations

because she's attaching all of her bigotry and paranoia to Zionism.

and to the history of anti-Semitism, you know, among the Jews of the world.

And so it's, it's like, it's even more gross because it's just like, you're just doing MAGA stuff.

Just admit that you're doing MAGA stuff.

This is all a ruse and you don't mind putting every Jew at risk in order to brand yourself as

a MAGA gun lady, but Jewish, you know?

I have one more.

I have one more.

This is the shortest one, I promise.

But literally, as I was drafting this outline for this episode, she posted a video yesterday.

And what this video is, is Lizzie Savetsky in the streets of New York with an enormous shopping bag over her shoulder, which I just found to be a hysterical detail.

And she sees a car drive past with a Palestinian flag on the license plate and starts shouting at it.

So here's the video.

The caption to that video.

is, probably shouldn't behave like this without security, but I can't help it.

And it's like, to me, this is like, this distills everything that she is.

She is literally antagonizing a random Palestinian person in the street and then being like, I shouldn't be doing this without security.

I'm in so much danger doing this.

And I'm like, you're the aggressor.

Right.

You are the danger here.

You are an armed white woman in New York and you are yelling at a random person because they have a sticker you don't like on their car, or they have a scarf that they're wearing.

The reason why everyone is denying your claims of anti-Semitism and your claims of fear is because you are not doing anything that would indicate you're afraid of anything.

That's what I'm saying.

Like, do a proper YouTuber, no makeup, sitting down filming in the kitchen on the floor.

Like, then maybe to be clear, I'm kidding.

I'm being sarcastic.

Well, no, but

I think it's fair to say say that if you're going to lie, at least do it convincingly.

This is why people feel like

they've lost touch with reality.

Everyone keeps questioning their own sanity because they're like, they're not even trying to lie well.

Like they are.

They're doing this in a way that's making me feel strange because I don't know what anyone else is seeing, but all I see is a rich white girl in New York yelling at a random brown person

and a person who's minding their own business.

Am I crazy?

And the answer is: no, you're not crazy.

Lizzie just doesn't care.

She lives in her own world.

She lives in her own reality where every power dynamic is inverted, where she can be the aggressor and claim victimhood.

This is the entire like Zionist framework in microcosm.

Yes, it's a microcosm of Israel and Palestine.

Yes, yes.

It is this constant, like, you know, center my fear as I'm doing acts of aggression against innocent people.

You know, it's, and, you know, this is Israel is constantly painting itself as the victim of anything that they are actually doing to the Palestinian people.

It's like, you know, you are making me kill your children.

You know, this is literally a quote from

Golda Mair, former prime minister of Israel, who said,

something along the lines of we can forgive the

Arabs or Palestinians or whatever she said for

killing us, but we will never forgive them for making us kill their children.

Fucking crazy.

And the only person that that sounds like based to

is someone who is already steeped in this Zionist narrative and Zionist outlook on life, in which you are perpetually the victim of everything.

Everyone else is like, did you just justify killing children?

So this content has done really well for her.

She was recently awarded by Eric Adams like award for combating anti-Semitism.

And it's interesting that you mentioned that this is just MAGA because Lizzie is one of a number of these types of public figures who during the 2024 election was like, I am a lifelong liberal, but Trump is what we need to protect Jews in this moment.

And when I talk about the conversion of a certain type of Jew towards Trump and to MA and to conservatism in America, I always want to remind general listeners who don't look at like exit polls and everything that Jewish people are still overwhelmingly among the most liberal cohorts in the United States, still.

But there has been a real shift in a very certain portion of like the new Jewish right in the US that has bought into this like, we need Trump because he will save Jews.

And this has happened to people I grew up with.

You know, I grew up around a Jewish social community and going to synagogue.

And I've seen people like, oh, you're liking all of Trump's posts now.

When did that happen?

And I guess it makes sense to me.

And this is my take and I'm curious yours.

But it's like Zionism is a right-wing movement built on white supremacy.

And it would make sense then that if you buy into that as your primary issue in American politics, you will become a Republican.

Yeah, I agree with that.

I think that for a lot of them, it is just Zionism is,

yeah, it's a right-wing movement.

They like, it's not that they like racism, but they think that it's not racism.

They think it is like justified security concerns.

And you ask any like white racist why they are, you know, scared of immigrants in this country, why they're scared of black people in this country, why they're scared of whatever they, you know, and they'll, they'll justify it the same way.

It's not about I don't hate anybody, but uh, you know, I just, I walk down the street and I see, you know, somebody who looks like, I don't know, a thug, and I gotta like worry for myself.

They always, it's always like couched in this like security concern, even though it is like very clearly your own personal projection.

So there's that aspect to it.

I also think that, I mean, nothing says you're becoming white or you are white more than identifying more with the, you know, conservative or right-wing, you know, things.

And I think that is something that a lot of Jewish people in the United States who are white have slowly sort of been making their way over to this like completely

comfortable position of just being a white person.

The only thing I think that has kept most Jews

still voting for Democrats and not MAGA is they have a history to draw on of support for things like the civil rights movement and support for other groups outside of their own.

and it's a proud history in the united states of jewish and and black solidarity jewish and uh you know immigrant solidarity that i think people are not so ready to toss aside that being said uh israel is one of those issues that does get people to start dropping any pretense of being a supporter of liberal values quote unquote you know like they can take the narrative and say, oh, well, if you don't support Israel, then why should I support you?

Black Lives Matter.

A direct quote from Amy Schumer's Instagram story.

Yes, yes, yes.

And it's, it's, it's so insane to say that out loud and, and deeply embarrassing for every other Jew in the United States.

I feel like I'm, I, I have to apologize for Amy Schumer

a lot of the times, where I'm just like, no, we're not, we're not all like that.

But it's embarrassing to present Israel and the cause of Zionism as like being the issue that you're going to need everyone else to support, or else you are going to withdraw any support you have of their stuff.

And it's like, okay, well, so then that wasn't a moral choice.

It was like a strategical calculation.

You make us sound bad.

Yes.

It's awful.

I would like to take a quick break from the show to give a huge thanks to Incogni for sponsoring today's episode.

Isn't it nice to imagine an internet that just has less of your personal information out there floating around on it?

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Now, let's get back to the show.

So, I want to shift gears ever so slightly here, because for a lot of people who observe American politics, Lizzie Savetsky's behavior could fall into, like we've said, a well-worn category of outspoken, powerful conservatives parading around their delusional persecution complexes in an effort to trick the public into giving them more support socially, politically, monetarily, what have you.

But the premise of the anti-Semitism panic has been accepted across the American political spectrum, and it's being perpetuated by a lot of liberals too.

So I'm going to play a little clip right here of CNN anchor Dana Bash suggesting that the slogan, Free Palestine, is anti-Semitic.

You just heard the alleged killer saying, Free Palestine.

We hear that on the streets, we hear that on college campuses, and there are a lot of people who feel, who have been worried that that has been turned into a call to arms and a call to action and violence.

Yes.

Others claim that it's not.

What do you think now that we have seen this?

I think there's no question, whatever its initial intent and whatever people were saying initially or meant it, it has become a call for violence and not violence against Israelis, which is wrong.

but violence against Jews.

Could it be said that Free Palestine is an anti-Semitic slogan?

A lot of people are saying this, and then she has the one guest who is saying this.

Right, yeah, yeah.

Everybody is saying this one thing.

What do you think, guests who I brought on to say this one thing?

Yeah, I mean, liberal Zionism, I think, is fascinating because it's

something that can go one of two ways.

It's either a mid-stage between like going from like liberal Zionist to non-Zionist to anti-Zionist, which was my personal trajectory,

or it's the classic case of scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.

Liberal Zionism is the sort of, it's a softer, more friendly version of Zionism.

It's one in which it takes like the victim narrative, you know, that is so prominent in regular Zionism, but also adds a little bit of like empathy towards the Palestinian people, but offers no concrete solutions and is essentially just a plea to the status quo.

And the status quo is, as we know,

genocide and ethnic cleansing.

And so, especially in this time, being a liberal Zionist is just allowing for this to happen, but being like committed to doing a land acknowledgement in Gaza 10 years from now.

That's essentially what it is.

And I see the way in which liberal Zionists, their main tool is to tone police the way in which people

do pro-Palestinian activism.

This is like, you know, of course, I believe that Netanyahu is bad.

He's doing all these like terrible things.

That being said, when you hold up this sign or you say this phrase, here's a litany of reasons why that is actually as bad, if not worse, than what's happening in Gaza.

And here's why we need to all stop talking about this for a little bit, maybe come back in a year or two and refocus our language, and then we can deal with the whole Palestine problem.

Oh, you're saying Palestine's already been ethnically cleansed?

Dang, that's too bad.

It's Kamala Harris's repeated 2024 campaign soundbite: I believe Palestinians have the right to self-determination

and another 4 billion to Israel.

Right, exactly.

I wanted to mention liberal Zionism and use that clip from Dana Bash on CNN because I feel like these people like Dana Bash, like Jake Tapper, they have done a great job of presenting Zionism, otherwise unfettered, brutal, racist, violent, you know, full of death, genocide to this like American liberal audience.

And they end up doing, like, Dana Bash here is when she's like, I guess, saying free Palestine is anti-Semitic, like she's doing what Lizzie Savetsky is doing.

It's the same thing.

Right.

Yes.

She's doing the legwork for the

right-wing criminalization of pro-Palestine activists.

Like, she is going to allow

for more

state retribution against students, activists,

Arabs who are just living their lives, you know, immigrants,

all while I'm sure she thinks she's doing something good, where she's presenting it as, well, I'm protecting the Jewish people.

I'm protecting, you know, the nation of the Jewish people.

I'm protecting, you know, the right to self-determination for Jews.

And it's like, it's just, it's disgusting because you literally have a responsibility when you are a journalist or, you know, at least you play one on TV.

You watch the way that she's been engaged in this issue and it has been nothing but attacks on some of the most vulnerable communities that we have here in the United States.

We're talking, I mean, college students are kids and they are very vulnerable.

And obviously, immigrants, people who are here on a visa, people who are here, you know, undocumented.

These are all things that she would

never claim is like part of her worldview, but she allows it to be.

She lets it in through Zionism.

What they're doing on CNN to me, I think, is more insidious because rather than it being like, you know, the liberal Zionists I know who are just lying to themselves so that they don't have to feel, what they're doing at CNN is Hezbo.

They are doing propaganda

and they are criminalizing

speech.

Just free Palestine means free Palestine.

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.

It's not anti-Semitic.

It is literally a cry for human rights and equality in this land.

And it is an apartheid state.

So

at what point are you just saying anything you can is, you know, this is all anti-Semitism, just so that you can stop human rights from happening?

The last instance of this sort of anti-Semitism distortion that I want to highlight before explaining some of the more administrative policy-based things that are happening underneath all of this is

the sort of current war on Miss Rachel, which by the way, I am enlisting in on the side of Miss Rachel.

Same, same.

We love Miss Rachel.

So, Miss Rachel, if you are not a new parent or heavily invested in online culture wars, is a supremely popular children's educational YouTuber slash songwriter.

She is known for her series, Songs for Littles, which are basically just like songs that she makes and sings.

And it's like, hi, I'm Miss Rachel.

Like, and that is not pejorative.

She's literally a queen.

I love her.

And they're like focused on early age development.

And like parents love it because it's essentially like free YouTube based material for their kids to listen to.

I'm a Miss Rachel Stan.

I will be, I hope Miss Rachel's songs start charting on Spotify as a result of all of this.

She gets, you know, hundreds of millions of views.

And last year, Miss Rachel set up a cameo account where she would donate all of her cameo earnings to the Save the Children Emergency Fund.

And she specifically highlighted the plight of children in Gaza.

This led to so much harassment and claims of anti-Semitism because she would donate money to bombed Palestinian children that she had to turn off comments on her YouTube channel, which are still off today.

And more recently, this shadowy right-wing group, which a lot of people don't realize is a right-wing group because it's just called stop anti-Semitism and they accept that at face value.

This group, which has come for me on various social media platforms multiple times, me, a Jew,

stop anti-Semitism called on Attorney General Pam Bondi to investigate Miss Rachel to see if quote she is being funded by a foreign party to push anti-Israel propaganda to skew public opinion so and oh and they posted a picture of her where over it they wrote from nursery rhymes to Hamas lines

which isn't even good like that's it's not even a good rhyme.

From nursery rhymes to Hamas lines.

Whatever.

They could have workshopped that a bit.

100%.

I bring this up.

I mean, this is so ridiculous, but we've gone from from the river to the sea is anti-Semitic to Free Palestine is anti-Semitic to showing empathy for Palestinian child amputees is anti-Semitic.

And I want to include one more quote about this whole situation here because the New York Times published a write-up about the war on Miss Rachel.

And this is from a woman named Stacey Hackner.

Quote, Miss Rachel seems to be someone who is really, really good-hearted.

But in the context of everything that's going on, she says, I care about all children, but really, she's talking about the children of Gaza.

That has left a lot of Jewish parents feeling quite isolated.

I mean, just as someone who is a parent and loves Miss Rachel, it is, it's just even more horrifying because

Miss Rachel is literally just saying she loves kids.

She's literally advocating for the rights of children.

At some point, when you are saying that it is anti-Semitic to support the rights of children not to be mass murdered, at some point you are just

saying that it is a Jewish value.

to kill children.

That's what people are hearing.

If you are saying it's anti-Semitic to support the rights of children not to be murdered and made amputees, you are saying, oh, well, this is somehow anti-Jewish.

You are equating Judaism and Jewishness with these crimes.

This is not stopping anti-Semitism.

I'll say that much.

It is most likely spreading it.

And the worst part about it is Miss Rachel's so beloved.

that

if you ask any parent about Miss Rachel, they'll say, this is, she's like crack for children, you know, and she doesn't, she doesn't just like stop them from like while in out.

She also teaches them things.

She teaches them songs.

She teaches them sign language.

It's, it is videos for infants, a lot of them.

My daughter loves Miss Rachel.

She learned how to say more with her hands, you know, she learned all these other things.

And if you, you should not start making Miss Rachel your target, because if you make people in America choose between abandoning Miss Rachel and supporting Hamas,

everyone is going to choose Hamas.

That's right, that's right.

That

is not a game you want to play.

I have nothing but respect for Miss Rachel speaking out against this.

She said on an interview in Zateo

that she thinks it should be controversial to not speak out about this.

And I agree with her 100%.

She is a hero and an icon.

I love her.

I think you just described so perfectly why I can't stop looking at people like Lizzie Savetsky.

Because like you said, it's like she turns genocide into a Jewish value by saying that if you're against it, you're against Jews.

And that is, again,

I don't mean to sound like a broken record repeating you, but like that stokes anti-Semitism.

I have heard people who don't think a lot about Jewish people, people, who don't think a lot about anti-Semitism because they aren't Jewish, say things

when protesting Israel that I actually do think sometimes borders on anti-Semitism because they forget to make the distinction between Israel and Jews.

And that is something to be clear that is on them to know how to make that distinction.

But it really doesn't help when you have people like this who are saying, no, no, no, we are one and the same.

When you have people like Noah Tishby, who's another one of these influencers, who is constantly saying who wrote a book about anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.

Like it really doesn't help people become less anti-Semitic when you constantly tell them that there is no separation between these things when there absolutely is.

Yeah, 100%.

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Now let's get back to talking about these freaks.

And so with all of these examples happening on the internet, happening in pop culture, happening in the media in mind, I want

to now tap.

Welcome back.

Wake up.

Thank you.

Glad to be back.

Because you really are the expert here in something called Project Esther.

And I feel like Project Esther is at the heart of this perversion of anti-Semitism that we've been talking about, and more broadly, at the heart of the unraveling of democratic principles in America.

And nobody knows what it is.

And I didn't know what it was.

So, can you tell us a little bit about Project Esther?

Project Esther comes out of the Heritage Foundation, the same group who brought us Project 2025.

And it's a so-called plan to combat anti-Semitism that I have to mention misuses Jewish terminology and text tradition and maligns the Jewish community throughout.

This plan insults American Jews for not aligning with the Heritage Foundation's definition of anti-Semitism.

It calls us complacent and our positions inexplicable.

Crazy.

One of these leaders said in an interview that if Jewish organizations, quote, were doing their job, we wouldn't have the problem we have.

So basically, blaming anti-Semitism on Jews.

The task force's stated goal in Project Esther is to completely dismantle any domestic groups supporting Palestinian rights or humanity by labeling them as part of a made-up group, the Hamas Support Network, totally made up.

HSN.

Wait, isn't HSN?

Hold on.

H?

The home shopping network.

Home shopping network.

It's also the home shopping network.

It's accusing all pro-Palestinian protesters of being part of the home shopping network.

Home shopping network.

The spot really thickens.

Yeah.

Yes.

They all love Hamas and they love buying, you know,

a katana on

home shopping networks.

The Hamas home shopping network.

It's good because I think this is why I appreciate this conversation.

Like, we have to laugh or we would cry our eyes out, you know?

And if you call right now, you'll get two Intifadas for the price of one.

They're going to yell at me.

So this is part of an effort to basically completely conflate support for Palestinian rights, Palestinian humanity, with support for Hamas.

But the Project Esther's scope actually extends well beyond these groups to target a wide spectrum of liberal donors, foundations, organizations that also do not in any way support Hamas.

The plan names anti-capitalist groups, claiming that they aligned with America's overseas enemies.

And so all of this just sets the stage for guilt by association and really exposes the true intent of Project Esther, which is dismantling civil society institutions like universities and nonprofit organizations as a way to get rid of any domestic opposition to the administration and all doing it under the pretext of protecting Jews.

When was Project Esther published?

And also, could you explain the connection between Project Esther and the Trump administration?

Because I think a lot of people, and this happened with Project 2025, it's written by this group called the Heritage Foundation, which is like a well-funded, well-oiled conservative think tank.

But then how exactly does it get its clause in the Trump administration?

And because it's not not technically the Trump administration writing the plan in theory, the Trump administration, and they did this with Project 2025, have like plausible deniability as to whether or not they're carrying it out.

Exactly.

So unfortunately for all of us, the Trump administration is doing an excellent job of carrying out Project Esther.

Project Esther is actually, there have been many, many versions of this plan in prior years from the Heritage Foundation, but all of them were written and also Project Esther written in the, in case there is a willing administration, basically.

And so Trump is their guy.

This has been in the works for a while.

I mean, we can go back, we can go back to the beginning of the new Christian right in the 1970s and the 1980s.

But the Heritage Foundation, their task force that oversaw Project Esther, most of them are Christian.

They are far-right evangelicals.

Some of them are leading figures in the new Apostolic Reformation, or or NAR,

this influential and growing Christian nationalist movement that seeks to conquer all walks of life, and which has friends and fellow travelers in the highest levels of U.S.

government.

These are the profiles of the people that have made this plan to confront anti-Semitism.

And they have in them definitely a willing administration with Trump.

Within the first weeks of this administration, Trump issued an executive order calling for the deportation of foreign-born students found guilty of anti-Semitism using this definition that includes criticism of Israel.

And expelling immigrants on ideological grounds is explicitly named in Project Esther.

And we've seen it happening all over the country.

Mahmoud Khalil in New York, Ramesa Azturk in Somerville, Massachusetts.

Badar Khansuri in Georgetown, and countless names that haven't made the news.

All international students detained by ICE agents and shipped to ICE facilities in Louisiana for the crime of supporting Palestinian rights.

So this is Project Esther at play.

These are strategies that the Heritage Foundation has long tried to pursue to start to dismantle civil society and civil liberties.

And now they are able to do it under the Trump administration.

You mentioned that this is being spearheaded by evangelical Christians.

And that was actually a question that I had here on my outline.

I wrote, how many Jews were involved with the creation of Project Esther.

And, you know, notably, I was reading last night, the second sentence of Project Esther's Wikipedia page is, the effort has received support from several evangelical Christian organizations, but no major Jewish ones.

So why do evangelical Christians want to suppress pro-Palestinian speech?

Like, what is their stake in this?

Yeah, so I think this is a really good time to talk about Christian Zionism.

If we go back to the 1970s and the start of the new Christian right, it was from the start both anti-Semitic and pro-Israel.

Both of these things are for the most part rooted in this end times theology that many evangelicals subscribe to.

So in short, it's the belief that the second coming of Jesus can only happen when all Jews in the world are back in the biblical land of Israel, at which point the majority of those Jews will die, except for a select few who convert.

What?

Yeah, yeah, it's wild.

Yes.

What?

Yes.

This sounds extremely anti-Semitic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's super anti-Semitic.

Yes, it, like,

by definition, it's going for mass, mass Jewish death.

Or conversion.

You know, you have a chance to save yourself.

Or conversion, right?

Either way, no more Jews.

This evangelical imperative that we see the source of the American Christian rights die-hard support for Israel and for the Israeli government's policies, above all, those that involve Israel settling and keeping hold of the occupied territories.

And this is really what we're talking about when we're talking about contemporary American Christian Zionism.

And I will say that the Israeli government has been incredibly receptive to U.S.

evangelical support over the decades.

You know, it picked up when a right-wing government started in Israel around the same time that a right-wing government was starting here in the U.S., you know, taking power and that these shared values of Islamophobia and ensuring that Israel keeps hold of all the territories under its control, including the military-occupied territories, and bringing as many Jews as possible to live in Israel for the second coming of Christ.

Despite the pure anti-Semitism involved in the Christian Zionist belief belief about the ultimate fate of Jews and their end time vision, this support for Israel has been fully embraced by the Israeli government over decades and also by some members of the institutional American Jewish community.

So all the way back in 1982, we have this quote from Nathan Perlmutter, who was then the head of the ADL, talking about this alliance with Christian Zionists, saying, quote, if the Messiah comes on that day, we'll consider our options.

Meanwhile, let's praise the Lord and pass the the ammunition.

What the fuck?

Yeah, it's such an interesting bedfellow, too, because like essentially the Israeli position on this is like, look, you can believe in whatever weird hocus pocus you want as long as the

end goal here is you bringing the Jews of the world to

Israel and supporting us in our, you know, continuing war against the Palestinians and against our Arab neighbors,

then whatever.

Yeah, sure.

Like, it's so funny because it's like the perfect secular answer to someone who's a kooky end times anti-Semite.

It's just like, yeah, whatever, dude, believe whatever you want.

Yeah, oh, no, Jesus is going to come back.

Like, Jews are not, we're not worried about that because Jews don't believe in Jesus.

It's crazy to see this team of anti-Semite and the Jewish state.

And people, you know, they believe that they should be natural enemies, but not in this case.

So with regard to Project Esther and the Trump administration and the way that the Trump administration has been revoking green cards, student visas, deporting people for pro-Palestinian speech, and saying all of that is because they're deeply invested in Jewish safety.

But it's actually, would you say, because they're following a plan written by deeply anti-Semitic evangelical Christians.

Yes.

So this is where the administration is actually able to carry out actions that they wanted to do anyway, executing policies that they wanted to, but they're doing so in the name of fighting anti-Semitism.

So this is actually Project 2025 and Project Esther in Action.

These are authoritarian policies.

These are preordained attacks on higher education and civil rights, but they are now carried out under the false premise of protecting Jews.

So we've seen the deportations or detainments of international students and threatened deportations.

We've seen those arrests happening intertwined with the Trump administration cutting or threatening to cut billions of dollars in federal funding to dozens of universities over allegations that they failed to adequately address anti-Semitism on campus.

And all of that is being done supposedly for Jewish safety when we know that it doesn't actually create any more safety for Jews, that the way that Jews have had the kind of safety that we've had in this country is through constitutional rights and protections for minorities.

So, any effort that is being done to undermine those constitutional rights or to undermine protections for any minority groups are ultimately creating less safety for Jews.

So, it's not just that these kinds of actions, you know,

are being done under this false premise, but it's also that they are creating less safety for Jews in the process.

This is at the heart of what I was saying at the top of the episode, which is that like, I feel like my safety, quote unquote, as a Jewish person is being weaponized for way darker means,

which is that the Trump administration is essentially trying to, like you said, diminish the autonomy of higher education to squash free speech as a principle.

And it feels, it's like, it's like crazy making to have that being done and like then have these press conferences from, you know, the MAGA administration be like, and it's for Jews.

It's just not true.

It's incredibly Orwellian, you know?

I mean, it's done for Jewish safety.

You know, that's their claim.

And it is making us unsafe.

It's too ridiculous to expect adults to believe this.

And this is where I think it's that, you know, American Jews who can see through this so blatantly, we absolutely have to expose these tactics for what they are.

We have to say this is a far-right assault on democratic norms disguised as protection for Jews.

We have to say that we know that Jewish safety in the U.S.

depends on constitutional rights and minority protections.

And that also we know that, you know, deporting international students doesn't combat anti-Semitism.

Public firings don't combat anti-Semitism.

Withholding funds from research institutions doesn't combat anti-Semitism.

Arresting activists doesn't combat anti-Semitism.

We're not going to terrorize or incarcerate or deport or fire or infiltrate our way out of anti-Semitism.

That's not how it works.

So this is a place where it is so important for the American Jews who can totally see through this, see through what the Trump administration is doing, to be visible and vocal about this so that

it's not crazy making, so that we can find each other and see reality in each other's eyes when we are saying this, so that we can also say to the non-Jews around us, you know, you're not crazy.

We don't think this is good either.

We also see this as very threatening.

And to another point is that, you know, when people see, when people are losing their jobs or are, you know,

being denied medical research on supposedly on behalf of the Jews, that actually creates anti-Semitism.

People are seeing us as the face of this.

And so there's one way in which, you know, people are talking about this, and I talk about it too as this is the distortion of anti-Semitism.

But in this other way, this is just anti-Semitism in its like pure form, where it's making Jews the face of power, making Jews the face of authoritarianism, saying that it is because of Jews that XYZ.

And so in that case, it's not even a strange distortion.

It's actually just the modern day version of Jews being seen as the face of the hand of power against them and their rights and their civil liberties and their pocketbooks and all of those things.

So there's so many reasons that we have to fight against it.

And also, yeah, just to find that reality together.

And the irony being that whether you're, you know, a professor who's being threatened with their job or a student being deported or anyone watching these things happen, it's not happening as a result of Jews in power.

It's like happening as a result of Christian Zionists.

That's right.

That's right.

That's right.

This is a long-standing Christian Zionist agenda that is now being played out under the pretext of supporting Jews.

That's why we can see all of these pieces of Project

2025, of Project Esther, of Christian nationalist documents that have these planned around dismantling civil society so as to create a Christian society in its place.

That is also the next step of all of this is the dismantlement of these secular elements of society, make a vacuum in which to have a Christian power take hold in so many different places and institutions.

So this is a longtime Christian Zionist goal.

And they have found a way that can appeal to not just the right, but the center and even some parts of the center left.

Some parts of the center left are saying, well, we want to protect Jews.

We want Jews to be safe.

And so it is a very politically savvy method in, which is why anyone who can see through it needs to be part of that exposing.

I have a question for you, which is I have spent, as a lot of us, you know, Jews with moral clarity have over the last couple years, spent a lot of time with my family and with different generations of my family who have a harder time understanding and accepting some of this stuff.

And it is an arduous process trying to, you know, get them to the other side, if you will.

My question for you is for people who are Jewish and people who aren't Jewish, but who have a well-intentioned investment in protecting Jews from anti-Semitism, in fighting anti-Semitism, what would you say to begin to untangle them from this web of lies?

And for essentially, like when I'm reading about Project Esther, I'm like, you guys are basically falling for this.

You might identify as a liberal, you might identify as a Democrat, you might love gay people and trans people, you might whatever.

You might believe in, you know, liberal society, but you are playing right into an authoritarian agenda that is about the erosion of free speech, that is about the erosion of free and fair trials.

What would you say to disentangle them from this web of lies that they've bought into?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, first of all, I think that it would be really good to point to what Trump and the Trump administration and just members of the Trump gang, have been doing and saying as a way to demonstrate that Jewish safety is certainly not one of their top priorities.

I mean, we have Elon Musk, who I know you've covered in detail on your podcast.

It would be an apitfruity episode if Elon was not named, unfortunately for me and my sanity.

But like I said, psychiatry bills are paying themselves.

Thanks to the sponsor of this episode.

Yeah, I mean, he's, you know, he is dismantling parts of the U.S.

government while he is repopularizing the Nazi salute and telling German parties that they should stop feeling so bad about the Holocaust and allow the far-right Nazi-rooted parties back into government.

I mean, they are surrounding themselves with people who are actually threatening the livelihood of Jews.

So that's one piece.

Another piece is actually having conversations about how to truly address anti-Semitism.

So the best way to create safety for Jews and stop the impacts of anti-Semitism is to include the work of dismantling anti-Semitism as part of our work to fight discrimination and oppression in all of their forms and create equity and justice for all people.

There's not going to be a safety for Jews that makes other people less safe.

That's not how it works.

So I think anything that pits Jewish safety against the safety of any other people is suspect right away.

And so this means things like increasing democracy.

Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories paint Jews as this secret power responsible for their suffering.

And in this time when people are disenfranchised, when they're truly alienated from the people making decisions that dramatically impact their lives, these conspiracy theories can make sense.

But if people have a robust democracy and if they can clearly see who's making decisions that impact them at the local and state and federal level and what they can do to change those decisions, they don't need conspiracy theories anymore.

They actually have democracy and we can increase economic equality.

So anti-Semitism tells the story that Jews are hoarding the world's financial resources.

And again, if people can't provide for their families on one or even two jobs, then they're going to be vulnerable to believing this story about the Jews, that someone's taking their money.

But if people have economic security, they don't need stories about Jews.

They have what they need in their lives.

So, the ways in which Jews are safer in society is when everyone is safer in society.

I always like to look to one of my teachers, Aurora Levins Morales, to say that,

okay, I'm not going to get her quote right, but it's basically like if the safety of two people is pitted against each other, then we just aren't thinking large enough.

We aren't thinking creatively enough, we aren't thinking boldly enough because that actually can't be true.

So, this is where it's suspect.

And, you know, there's no place in the, I would say there's no place in the world where Jews can be safe and other people are less safe safe because of that.

I think that we, you know, we see this, that Israelis are not safe.

Israelis will say over and over again that they are not safe.

And that is all, that is true because we cannot have the safety of one people against the safety of another.

So I think this is where we can really connect with people and say, We also want the safety of Jews.

As Jews and as non-Jews, we want Jewish people to be safe.

And we are not going to get there through the dismantlement of any democracies, the dismantlement of any protections, the dismantlement of any civil rights and civil liberties.

That's not going to lead to true safety for our community.

God damn.

Yeah.

God damn.

That was fucking fire.

Matt, why did you let me talk most of the episode?

Because

you were the influencer guy.

I'm terrible.

That was incredible.

Thank you so much for joining me for, I suppose, the inaugural Jewish episode of A Bit Fruity.

I guess they're all Jewish in a sense.

I mean, I'm here, but you know.

Well, you're there.

Yeah, exactly.

Even though Christian Zionists on Twitter are telling me that I'm not really Jewish.

Right.

Yes.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

It's a whole other episode.

Yeah.

A whole other episode of just non-Jews feeling really comfortable just telling everyone who's Jewish and who's not.

It's a whole other episode for, you guessed it, my psychiatrist.

I hope they're Jewish.

I just want to say thank you for having me on, but also thank you for

doing this podcast and everything you've been doing for the last 18 months.

Just real quick,

when after October 7th, when every person that I know, both in my community and, you know, not just Jewish community, but also just like comedy community and stuff like that, everyone was being very quiet.

You were one of the first voices I saw out there loudly

condemning

the actions of Israel and speaking, you know, no Holtz Bart against Zionism and against

the racism of

Zionism.

And so I just want to say that that is

very cool of you.

And I've always appreciated the work.

Wow.

I might have to edit.

I don't know if I'll edit that out or not because is it like gauche to like leave your own praise in your own podcast?

Maybe.

I don't know.

We'll find out.

But thank you so much for saying that.

I just want to let you know that.

Thanks.

Thanks.

Thanks, Matty Boy.

It's nice to be in community with fellow anti-Zionist Matts.

Yeah, love us.

Matt's in community.

Where can people find more of both of your excellent work?

I was going to say,

nowhere.

My best work will never be seen.

That's so esoteric.

You're one of them behind the scenes Jews, I guess.

Yeah, I was going to say, I'm not, it's not a secret couple.

It really isn't.

Most of my work happens in conversation, I will say.

Thank you so much for having me on here.

Thank you for bringing this conversation to light to be part of exposing what's happening.

It's so important, and I'm just really grateful for your platform and your voice and your humor.

And thanks for tackling this.

Well, I do a podcast called Bad Hasbara, the world's most moral podcast.

It is a comedy podcast about Israeli propaganda.

It's two anti-Zionist Jews talking shit about Israel.

And it's a lot of fun in this really not fun time trying to process all of the horrific things that are being done to Palestinians and done in our name.

So yeah, check that out.

And if you have made it this far, thank you so much for listening to this episode.

I know I say that every episode, but like I really, really mean it.

This has been a while in the making.

This is the thing that I have spent the last two years thinking about more than any other single topic.

It is what I believe to be one of the most important things to understand about what is currently happening in this country.

And so I hope that we could help you make a little bit more sense of it while laughing at some ridiculous influencers, as is tradition on this podcast.

I love you so much, and until next time, stay fruity.