The Mom Who Invented Gender Reveals Regrets It

I feel like a lot of people listening to this are going to be very surprised to know that the woman who invented the gender reveal is now writing papers on like the importance of the intersection of trans issues and reproductive health issues.

Hello, hello, and welcome to A Bit Fruity, the show where we try to learn something new about each other without scorching the earth in the process.

I'm Matt Bernstein and I am so, so grateful grateful that you're listening today.

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And if you're watching this right now, welcome to my living room.

This is the first episode that we are doing from my apartment.

We had a studio, like a real studio, up until now, but we lost that studio.

We were kicked out.

It was a whole thing, but now we're here.

And I actually think I prefer this.

It's chic.

It feels cozy.

I'm happy that you're home with me.

And today we are in for a real treat because we are going to hear from someone who is unsuspecting.

She has described herself as a normal, boring, suburban white mom, but she has one really weird line item on her resume.

Jenna Carvanitis is widely credited with inventing the gender reveal party on her blog in 2008.

And over the years, as things caught fire, he hee, haha, things in Jenna's personal life really started to evolve in ways that would color the way that she felt about this thing that she'd invented.

So I am so excited to speak with her.

I'm so happy she's here.

Jenna, welcome to the show.

Hey, thank you for having me.

I'm very excited.

Of course, when I teased this episode on my Instagram story earlier today, I was like, I am interviewing someone who regrets the thing that they invented.

And And people were like, oh my God, are you interviewing Oppenheimer?

And I was like, kind of, like, you're the, you're the Oppenheimer of gender.

You're the gender reveal Oppenheimer.

So the genderheimer.

The gender.

You're the genderheimer, exactly.

So, Jenna,

I want you to catch us up on the person that you were up until the point of your first pregnancy.

And then, you know, we'll get into everything.

But like, who is Jenna?

Where does Jenna come from?

Yeah.

Like, wow.

Like, where do I come from?

So that's kind of an interesting question.

I don't think anybody's really asked me that in that way before.

So I'm originally from Indiana.

I'm a girl from Indiana.

And

I actually left home very early at 17.

So I was on my own and doing all kinds of things.

And so I actually moved to Chicago.

I ended up going to school.

I went to college on like a Pell Grant.

I was poor.

As you can imagine, someone who's living in their car sometimes might be.

And so I ended up graduating college, moved to Chicago, and was just, you know, living the life in the city.

I had an apartment and doing my whole thing.

And then I met my husband.

And then I became a mommy blogger.

You became a mommy blogger.

To shorten up 20-something years, yeah.

Right.

So you had this blog called High Gloss and Sauce.

And I don't want to,

I don't want to scare the millennials, but I need us to take a second for the maybe younger end of Gen Z listeners.

Can you explain like what the internet was like in 2008?

Like what was a blog?

It was so non-commercial, first of all.

There was no money to be made.

There was no

reason to do any of it.

It felt very private.

So I was an early adapter to social media.

I really had a blog, actually my first blog in like the 90s when when I was like in college.

That is how old I am.

And

it just felt like

more like a diary.

Like, I'll say what I'm doing today, and it's for my own benefit.

I'm putting things out there because I want to record what I'm doing.

And

it really had nothing to do with like what it is today, where it's more like pandering and catering to an audience.

That didn't exist.

So yeah, it was just kind of like navel gazing at its finest.

Well, and my, I mean, I'm 24.

And so even though I feel like I was among the first generation of people to grow up on the internet, but I only had a few years and I was very young when the internet was so like disparate like that.

Like it felt like there were so many little corners of the internet, but none of them were really connected in the way that everything is now.

And there was no way to like immediately unite millions of people online in the way there that there is now.

It's like if you had a blog, like how many readers did your blog have?

You know, that was the hard thing is I didn't actually get a counter on my blog to know any of my stats.

That's how, that's how like weird it was back then.

Like you didn't even know how many you had.

But once I did, you know, there were some posts I would have that have like, you know, 25,000 readers and like, you know, it would kind of go back and forth sometimes.

So it was hard to say.

I didn't have any subscribers at that time because that wasn't even a thing.

So yeah, it's really hard to say like what the numbers were, but you know, I didn't even realize how big my blog was until I put the counter on there.

And then I was like, oh, people are reading this.

But you weren't making any money from it.

Like, it wasn't a career thing or was it?

No, it wasn't.

I don't even know.

I like really, like, why was I even doing it?

I wasn't trying to make money from it.

I wasn't trying to do anything other than just like talk about my day and myself and what was happening.

It was, it was a lot of fun.

And it was kind of like a way to really be seen and to sort of make a, you know, a little document like, hey, I was here in the world.

So that's all I was doing it for, just for fun.

And were you, you had graduated college at this point?

And what were you doing professionally?

Yeah.

So by the early 2000s, I worked in commercial real estate for a while.

I, it was boring.

You got like a 2% raise every year.

And after a while, I was like, you know what?

I'm just not doing this anymore.

Like I can make so much more money just selling cars.

So I got this job in downtown Chicago selling cars.

So with my college degree, I was selling cars.

And you know what?

Okay.

It's way better money.

Awesome money.

I had so much fun.

That's where I met my husband.

He's a lot of fun.

And yeah, that was what I was doing professionally.

I was only going to do that for like a little while.

I was like studying to go to law school, which I have since done.

But at the time, I ended up derailing for like a long time and just selling cars and hanging out.

So 2008 comes and you get pregnant for the first time?

No, that was not the first time.

That's the whole gender reveal story.

It's kind of like,

yeah, I had, we, you know, we got married and we were just like trying to start a family.

I was in my 20s.

Like, this will be easy.

Like, aren't you trying to not get knocked up the entire time you're a teen?

Like, you know, so I was like, ah, finally, this will be the easiest thing in the world.

And it was not, not easy.

I had, this was my third pregnancy by the time I was like sticking around, you know.

So, yeah, I'd had several miscarriages before that.

Oh,

I see.

Interesting.

Interesting.

So, well, and so did that, I mean...

So I had the party.

Yeah.

Was part of the motivation for having, you know, just getting creative about ways to celebrate the pregnancy a result of like finally having this pregnancy that you wanted for so long?

Absolutely.

Like I finally like made it to that stage of being able to find out if it was a boy or a girl.

I mean, I'm guessing 24 not having any kids, you don't really realize how it goes.

But basically, about halfway through the pregnancy, you have this really big ultrasound, this one like really huge one where they look at everything and they make sure that the heart is good and the brain is good and like all the things, right?

And so that's actually just sort of tangentially also when they tell you like what type of paper the child has.

And so I was like, you know, this is, this is some information.

This is awesome because, you know, previously I hadn't made it that far.

And so I was just really looking forward to this like so much.

to where I just wanted to have a celebration really for that reason.

Like it was more about me.

Like, hello, it was all about me.

Right.

Like, it's my my blog.

It's my life.

And that was what it was about.

And I was not even thinking, you know, this is just like announce if it's a boy or a girl.

Like, that wasn't really my intention with the party, but I figured it would be a good draw to get people, get the party going.

Right.

Like a draw to people in your personal life, but not necessarily on the internet, which I think is so interesting because like we're in now on the internet, it's like.

the goal of everything.

I mean, the goal of every brand doing a social media-based TikTok campaign or whatever is like, we need to do something that will go viral.

Like that is the explicit goal of so much behavior on the internet today.

But like that wasn't the goal.

You were just like, finally, I made it to the big ultrasound.

I want like my friends and family to hang out.

Yeah.

And it started to become like real.

Like,

oh, crap, like, this is really happening.

Like, I'm actually, there's actually going to be a person small who's going to be living here.

And I was like, kind of just trying to build that team.

You know, I had mentioned earlier I left home at 17.

I didn't exactly have like the most like secure, you know, family situation growing up.

And so I was like, oh, crap, I'm bringing a child into this family that there's not, we don't have like, oh, those grandparents are going to be babysitting and hanging out.

We didn't have that.

So I had to build that.

You know, I had to build that community.

And so I think a lot of people do.

I don't think that's really that unique of a story.

I think a lot of people are, you know, moving on from toxic relationships with other family members and they're, they're thinking, oh, I have to build this community for myself.

And so, so, you know, a gender-revealed party is the type of thing I didn't realize at the time.

You know, I was just thinking, I just need to have a party.

It's something where you can be in control as the parent.

Like, oh, I can have this party.

You can't throw yourself a baby shower.

You can't have a, hey, anybody want to come along and act like they're grandparents to my kids' party.

But you can get the neighbors involved in

a party like this.

That was kind of my motivation.

Right.

Like you mentioned elsewhere about

you wanted to find ways that could excite your mom about being involved in your pregnancy.

Yeah, she didn't work.

Did not work.

I don't want to poke the bear and, you know, get her

to say too much to us here, but we haven't spoken in over a decade.

And it was just, it's always been rocky, but like, it was always me trying.

to mend the situation.

Like,

you know, I bought her a plane ticket to come to wedding dress shopping with me and she wouldn't come.

You know, it was always me trying to be like, you know, could you please be involved?

And when I actually had the baby at the hospital, she was nowhere to be found.

So I was like, where are you?

And the nurse was like, yeah, she said she was going out for a coffee.

I'm like, at two in the morning, didn't see her for a couple of days.

So it's always been the type of thing where I need to be bigger and bolder and more exciting to get this person's attention.

And that was what I was trying to do.

She did go to the party, actually.

Well, and so that's, it's so human

to want that, to just like want to be surrounded by your friends and your family and the people who, you know, should be creating community for this child.

Like, I don't know.

I feel like you came at this from such a human place, especially as someone who's been trying to be pregnant for a long time.

I don't know.

I'm, I'm like touched.

Thank you for seeing, you know, you know, from my point of view, a lot of, you know, people really kind of see me as a villain in the story.

Like, oh, this woman who's, she's, you know,

really

propagating that gender binary out there.

And I'm like, oh my God, I so am not.

But that is the story of why I had the party.

It really had nothing to do with the baby's gender.

It was, it was a gimmick.

It was like, how can I get y'all out here?

Let's, let's have a party, you know, and try to get some, yeah.

some people going for this this new child.

So we get to the big day.

We've planned the party.

The people are coming.

The loved ones ones are coming from near and far to reveal

what, you know, what we assume to be the gender of the, of the baby.

Describe the actual like logistics of the first gender reveal party.

How did it go?

What was the creative?

What was like the top level creative?

Well, that would have been me running the whole show.

So I was trying to figure out a way to surprise myself.

Because I wanted to

I wanted the information if there was pink icing or blue icing, which I now realize is you know hokey and problematic in very 2008, but um I wanted that information to be available to the whole party at once.

I thought that was more of a fun way to do it.

Like, I'm also learning this information.

Like, you know, you guys can witness my reactions or whatever.

Right.

It was like, it was like the live YouTube reaction video, but like in your backyard with your family.

Yes.

And actually, I've lost the original video.

I don't know where it is.

I have to find it somewhere.

I'm sure I can find it somewhere.

I've got like old school technology, like the little reader card.

Kind of the eighth wonder of the world, the lost original gender-revealed VHS tape.

Yeah, exactly.

I've got the pictures from the blog and all the screen grabs from that, but I don't actually have the video.

But anyway, so yeah, everybody was emotionally.

It was a cake.

It was a cake.

Yeah, I just said it.

And the reason why is part of my like trying to get people to do this is it was my mom's mom's birthday.

So I was like, well, we'll fill the party for you, but then it'll be this.

So I was hoping it would be this whole thing.

But anyway, actually, everyone at the party didn't treat it like a birthday.

They didn't, I don't even remember.

I don't think we even sang happy birthday.

It was just about the gender reveal, but that was kind of where like the idea of the cake came in.

And I had recently done a birthday cake for a coworker of mine.

I had made a little ducky cake.

And this is like before Pinterest.

Like, I really felt like I was Martha Stewart.

Like, I had this cake.

I was like, oh, it's got a duck head on it.

It looks like a ducky.

This thing was the ugliest thing you've seen in your life.

Well, so we have, we have pictures of the cake.

Oh, no.

I should not claim this thing.

It is, oh, it was burnt too.

We have pictures of the cake.

I'm looking at it.

If you're watching the YouTube version of this episode, we will throw it up on the screen.

How would you describe it?

It's pale yellow.

I'm not going to bash your cake, Jenna.

Oh, bash it.

It's ugly.

It's a round, two-layer, like eight-inch cake.

And then on top, there's like a little mini cake for anybody who like, you know, is listening to this only.

It's, you know, it had like a little, like, maybe like four-inch little cake on top that was supposed to be like the duck head.

And so I put like those, that little like orange candy, what is that called?

Like those orange gummy.

Right, like the little like kind of sugar-coated, like sugar coated gelatin slices for the lips

yeah so it had big collagen looking lips like those big duck lips

and little M ⁇ Ms for the eyes I think it was satanic looking but it got the job done and people were like oh okay the description that comes to mind for me is very DIY it looks very DIY

which is kind of a read but like you know it's but you could tell it's a duck I mean

it was duck-ish okay it was duck-ish it was duck-ish.

So, okay, but was there just the one cake?

No, so I actually made two cakes.

I made one duck head, and then I made two bodies.

And one of the bodies I filled with blue icing, and one I filled with pink.

The reason why I didn't make two complete cakes was I was like, well, there's little subtle differences in like a little face.

Like, I would know which cake was coming out of the kitchen.

I sent my sister-in-law actually.

I kind of backed up on that part of the story.

You're like, oh, what were the logistics?

We went to the ultrasound earlier in the day, and I had the midwife put the information about the child's anatomy in an envelope and seal it and i was like don't tell me what it is and i was describing the party to her and she was like what i've never heard of anything like that i'm like yeah it's this thing i'm going to do this afternoon she's like okay so i had the little secret envelope and i i put my sister-in-law up to the task of okay go in the kitchen there's these two cakes one has a toothpick in it that one means it's got blue icing in it just take the toothpick out put the duck head on the correct cake, whichever one is, you know, I explained to her how to do it.

And so, and she did.

So that's that's how uh so she put the little mini duck head on the big body that was correlated with the correct icing and that's how we had our surprise so the idea was like your sister was going to come out back with the right cake but you didn't know which one it was just looking at it from the outside and then like she cuts it open and everyone's like oh my god

yeah well and the reason why i chose her is because she's very good at keeping secrets

I don't mean that she has any of my secrets.

I mean, she's just like a very like, she can keep a very straight face when she needs to.

And I was like, that's who I need.

Because if I give it to somebody who, like, I, who has like an expressive face, they're going to look at me and like be smiling really big.

If it's like, you know,

truth be told, I did, I did actually want a girl.

So they would have been like, yay, you know.

I was going to ask, like, did you have feelings about the, you wanted a girl?

I did.

I did.

What's so interesting to me as like a side note is that some of the gender reveals now that are most frustrating to me are there's obviously the ones that are like, you know, causing environmental disasters and like hate that.

But on like, you know, just a psychological level, the ones that are the most frustrating to me are the ones where the dad clearly wants a boy.

I don't know if you've seen videos of these, but sometimes they'll go viral on TikTok where they'll like pop the balloon or like shoot, I don't know, a tree or like whatever the fuck people are doing now to reveal the genitals of their child.

And then it'll be pink and the dad will like walk away like visibly upset.

I despise that.

Yeah, those are the ones that make me the most upset because I'm like, oh, wow.

Like, God, he's, he's checking out.

He's checking out early.

You have this party and you share it on your blog.

And this wasn't like Twitter or Instagram or TikTok where like something can just be sent around a million times in a day.

Like theoretically, it could have, but that's just the internet didn't work that way.

So, but you like what you like write up a post on your blog about it and like post a few pictures.

Yeah, so I posted about it before the party, like, here's what's going to happen, you know, like teasing that it was going to happen.

And then after the party, I wrote about it again.

And then it was like, I had a picture of the cake.

And, you know, it used to be like the big, the big trick was like to click on the picture.

And then when it pops out, it's a different picture.

So I had like the pop out was like the inside of the cake.

I thought I was very clever.

I love hearing about the early internet.

Yes, that was so mesmerizing back then, you know.

So, yeah,

it got some traction.

It got a lot of, you know, attention and stuff like that.

But yeah, it wasn't like, you know, it was on the news the next day.

It was more of a slow burn for the takeoff because, you know, this was the summer, she was born in 08.

So that was the summer of 08.

So

about, I don't know, it must have been a couple of months later.

You know, that's when I got a call from this magazine.

And they were like, you know, they emailed me, hey, can you hop on the phone?

I was like, sure.

They said they wanted to do like a centerfold spread in their magazine.

It's called The Bump.

I don't, I don't actually know if it's still in publication, but it used to be a big deal.

Oh, like pregnancy?

Yeah, it was kind of like the knot.

Remember the knot website for weddings?

I don't know if that's even still going on.

Is it?

Okay.

Wait, you know what's so interesting?

Do you know the movie Bottoms that just came out?

Oh, I think I've heard of it.

There's this movie Bottoms that just came out.

And one of, I was like Googling all of the actors in it.

And one of the main love interests, this actor, her,

I was reading all of their Wikipedia pages.

This is such a bizarre cameo.

This is such a bizarre cameo.

But the actor's dad founded the knot.

Oh, bizarre.

They made money off the knot.

It's just so interesting when you like find out who someone's parents are.

Side note.

Oh, I'm sure.

They had all the money for like the headshots and acting schools and all that.

Right.

And she's beautiful and she's great in the movie.

But like, I was like, oh, oh yeah, her parents founded the knot.

That's nice.

Yeah.

So Bump magazine, which I'm sure had readership at the time, wants to do a spread on you.

Yeah, they actually wanted to do a spread about just me, like my blog and all the things that I talked about on there.

So like I had like went shopping for a stroller and with no monetary gain whatsoever, I was like, and here's the different strollers I'm looking at and I'm chest driving them and that type of thing before that was really like a thing, you know, and they were like, oh.

There were no affiliate links that you were earning commission off of, right?

Yes, but they could, and they could run this in their thing, and then they could have a little blip on the side.

Here's what, here's a stroller that Jenna chose, and here was the place where she likes to shop for this.

I mean, so that was kind of like the idea.

I think it was, you know, the bump magazine is,

it's like any other magazine.

It's mainly advertisements, you know, and it's a little bit of article, but it's fluff stuff, you know.

But the gender reveal party was in there.

At the time, I called it a peep show because

the duck was a bird and it made a peep.

I don't know.

Also, kind of a dirty joke.

A peep show.

That is a dirty joke.

I love that.

That's like such a great detail.

For the younger listeners, again,

I feel like peep show is kind of an outdated term, but a peep show is like a

peep show is it's like a strooper show where you would put in the quarter and then the

back in old timey times.

I think that you used to look through a a hole in the wall and you saw something with maybe sailors.

I don't really actually know.

Like you would, well, the way I understand it, the way that I understand, right, this is like before either of our times.

But it's a peep.

I love that you called it a peep show.

A peep show is like you would go into, I think, I don't know, someone, Jen Nexer is going to get very mad at me if I explain this wrong.

But you would like go into the little

into the little room and y you would put in your quarters and you would stand and

the peephole would open you would look into it and someone would be on the other side of the wall like stripping

so i like i like that you called it a peep show because the duck but okay so you called it you called it a peep show because we didn't have gender reveal yet that didn't that wasn't a thing right yeah that was coined by somebody in the media somewhere talking about it right but that was what it was at the time we believed we were revealing you know the gender as well as the anatomy, but I don't know.

I wasn't thinking too hard about it, to be honest with you.

Sure.

But so they so they published this.

Yeah, they did.

And so the kind of like what happened, it was just kind of a comedy of errors, I guess, or the Swiss cheese theory, whatever happened, is that this magazine ended up being the magazine that was waiting in the waiting rooms at all the doctor's offices, midwives, OBGYN offices, and all the Midwestern United States.

So the whole middle of the United States gets this magazine for free, basically.

And before cell phones or smartphones, really, we had cell phones but it was before smartphones were ubiquitous people would literally read the magazine at the doctor's office right you remember highlights magazine when you were a kid you know you go and read the thing um it was like that um except you know and it was just so easy just to flip right to the middle and it was an actual article instead of an ad and so people were like wait a minute i'm reading this article about this party i'm literally about to go in and get my information about my child's anatomy I can make a cake.

It's a dollar for a box of cake.

I can make this happen today.

And so it just was such an easy thing for people to do to kind of just like, you know, add some excitement in their

humdrum lives, myself included.

And so, yeah, it just kind of caught on.

And from there, you know, that was at the birth of really social media.

So I was vlogging.

A lot of people were on YouTube.

I wasn't on YouTube at that time.

But yeah, that's kind of how the party propagated.

And so would you start like getting sent things like, hey, look, like someone copied your thing or whatever?

yeah it took like a while for that magazine then to come out so I would say about a year after my party is when I started seeing it and it was you know kind of kind of weird but kind of like a maybe like a little annoying too

like they copied my thing yeah you know you ever had like a friend who like wore your outfit it's like annoying like I just that was kind of the feeling that I got like uh I don't know so I kind of laid low on that for a little while you know then I had another baby I didn't do any more gender reveal parties because at that time I was kind of worried that people would think that I was copying them.

And I'm like,

you were like, this has become passe.

Yes,

I was doing that, you know, back then.

And I didn't want it to seem like I was catching up to a trend.

Like, no, like,

decorate my house with my own paintings.

I

forge my own way, a lot of different areas of my life.

And so that I just, yeah, it was kind of, it was kind of annoying.

Right.

You had to reinvent because the thing that you created was becoming too saturated.

So

so when was the first time you started having second thoughts not just about like the popularity of gender reveals but also like the meaning and intent behind them well i started kind of you know examining gender more and the problems with the concept of gender around the time i had my second child which is around 2011 so three years after the first party you know i have these two children they're both girls and they seemed so different to me one you know had a certain type of personality one had the other and they were just you know these flourishing little people.

And we kept running into this brick wall with everything had to be pink.

I didn't make their nursery pink.

It was a very beautiful little blue and yellow tall thing I was doing.

But it's like the minute we walk out the door, just everything is pink.

And I don't have a problem with pink.

As you can see, I'm sitting in a pink office right now.

I absolutely love the Barbie movie.

Pink is great.

It's not a hatred toward pink or girly girls.

That's not what I'm trying to say.

I'm not a pick-me.

You're not, not like other girls.

Make it known.

Yeah, I'm not, not like other girls.

I probably am exactly like other girls.

But you know, but it just got to be the thing where, and one of my children, she loved pink and it was really great.

But it was kind of like, it was so limiting.

It was kind of like she felt like, you know, she couldn't play with all the toys.

She couldn't play with a toy unless it was pink.

Like, oh, I'm so girly.

I'm, I'm, I love this.

And if it's not pink, I don't want it.

And it was like, well, you can't play with a science kit.

You can't play with like normal Legos.

Like, why, why are all those things for boys?

Why is the whole world and all of the opportunities and all of the colors for boys?

And then you got this one thing for the girls.

And why is she getting that information?

And I know that the manufacturers of the toys were trying to combat a lot of this by making the science kits in pink and by making

that doctor's sparkle McPluffins or whatever her name was, Doc McStuffins.

They tried to make it like appealing to girls to be like, oh, look, there's a girl doctor and she's very sparkly.

But the more of that that came out, the more limiting it was because you can't make the whole world pink,

right?

It's like there's still going to be things out there that are not pink.

And those things just started to seem off-limits to my kids.

And I didn't like it.

And I just started to think about it.

And

then I was thinking about the gender reveal parties.

And I'm like, oh, we've made a mistake here, friends.

Well, and I feel like at the same time that you're starting to have your own realizations about this stuff as they pertain to your kids, the parties are getting more and more.

Because I know you did your like pink and blue cakes, but I feel like that was really like

step one.

And then the, I mean, I remember like the first time I heard about gender reveals was also through cakes, but the cakes were like, you know, tutus or trucks.

And it was like they would like have these really like exaggerated thing.

I mean, like, this was also the time that like the babies clothes in stores, like the onesies, would have those things, like, like, you know, the girls' one would would be be pink and it would say like does this make my ass look big or

or like the little ladies man you know

little shirts for boys that would have a bow tie and it would be like lock up your daughters or like whatever like this was very um I feel like a lot of that stuff has become a little bit passe now but I do remember the cakes being the first thing

that I ever saw about gender reveals and they were all like incredibly it was oh it was tutus or touchdowns

right that's it yes the tutor and also like yeah the it's like guns and pearls i think is one of them guns and pearls oh my goodness i think that's one of them yeah and it was like really

all of that's terrible you were like you're doing this in my good name this is tacky

very tacky very tacky um and kind of the interesting thing too is like Originally, you know, I like, I wore a yellow outfit at my party and it was supposed to be like the cake, like it could go either way, you know, and it's like as things have progressed, it's very much about the dichotomy.

Right.

It's boy or girl, it's the, you know, the gender binary or bust type thing.

Right.

And it feels like it would maybe be like, it maybe we'd have a separate conversation about this if it literally was about like the anatomy and they were rebranded as sex reveals and people had an enlightened understanding of gender versus sex and all of that stuff.

But it's like, it's not.

It is literally every gender reveal you have ever seen, at least in a little bit and often a lot, plays into the like social expectations of what it means to have, of what your, your sex is.

People are like, what's the issue with gender reveals?

You know, it's, it's like, and I don't agree with this, but people will be like, so few kids are trans.

Like, what's the big deal?

Like the majority of time, if you predict that their gender is going to be the same as their sex, you know, you're going to be right.

It's not even just about gender or sex.

It's like those parties are about the gendered expectations.

Like, it's literally about like the tutus or touchdowns or the guns and pearls or like the whatever that, you know, it's like absolutely.

I think you're on to a really great point about it's about you know the social expectations.

And also, what about people who are just gender non-conforming?

You don't have to necessarily be trans to be affected by this, but you might be, you know, a girl who what we used to call tomboys.

Maybe you're just not, you know, into like ballet and all that kind of stuff.

But, you you know, kids will do what they can to be accepted by their parents.

And so sometimes these kids are just pretending their entire lives, like to act like they really like the stuff that they don't.

I mean, yeah, I think about like when I was a very effeminate little kid.

And I think about all through like grade school, I struggled a lot because I

I actually, well, interestingly, I didn't struggle at the beginning.

When I was in like kindergarten, I remember using pink and purple crayons and wearing skirts.

When we would play like house, I would always like get into the little like costume chest and I would put on my skirt and I loved it.

And it wasn't hard for me because I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.

And nobody ever made me feel like there was anything wrong with it, even the other kids, because we just hadn't learned it yet.

But when I got to like middle school and high school and, you know, people learned what being gay was and people learned about gay stereotypes through TV and the media and whatever else.

You know, people would make fun of me for being a boy who was very effeminate and who talked a certain way and who, I mean, oh my gosh, people would make fun of my girl handwriting

was just amazing to me because it was like, I just have better handwriting than you is what you're saying.

Thank you.

But it's so funny because when it comes to like cis and trans and whatever, it's like these people who are making fun of me in school weren't like, oh, you identify as cisgender?

Oh, well, my bad.

I'm going to stop making fun of you because you're not trans.

It's like, of course, you know,

it goes without saying trans kids get it the worst, but like, also,

people aren't like making sure you're trans in order to make fun of you.

And when it comes to like being judged and affected by not meeting the expectations of the gender binary, like that's all of our problem.

You know, it's not just the problem of trans people.

It's the problem of anyone who even slightly veers off course.

That was a good little rant, if I may say so.

That's a great rant because I'm thinking about what you just said just helped me clarify my thought too.

It's like about anybody who slightly veers off course is made fun of.

And I think that was kind of where I was with the pink thing.

It was like, there's so one of my daughters was just so afraid to veer off the pink that it would be something that she perceived as being like wrong.

And it was like, dude, literally, you don't have to do anything pink.

Yeah.

But they get this message at some point that it's like conformity is the way to survive.

And it's so sad because it's not.

It's the way to be creative and flourish.

So as you're coming into your own with your understanding of gender and with your understanding of who your daughters are, gender reveals start flying off the fucking rails.

So

Jenna, I'm not here to blame you for this, but we do have to address it.

Sure.

Gender reveal destruction statistics.

We have six deaths, one missing person, 20 plus injuries, hundreds of thousands of acres of wildfires.

That is definitely true.

Plane crashes, car fires.

There was actually just another plane crash in Mexico.

Mexico.

Yeah, I love that.

I love imagining that, like, anytime there's a natural disaster related to a gender reveal, like Jenna Carvanitis gets like a ping on her phone and she's like, fuck.

But yeah, so there was just another plane crash in Mexico, which was not the first gender reveal plane crash in Mexico.

There have been car fires, damages to property, and there was also a minor earthquake.

I want to ask you, when you first saw, because I feel like people started figuring out about the natural disaster component of this with the wildfires.

Was that the first kind of disaster you saw?

And

what was your reaction?

I was very upset.

This was a couple of years ago when that first brush fire happened because of of the gender reveal.

And I was very upset.

I actually cried.

I mean, I was president of my environmental law society.

I have been a vegetarian my entire life, which is a lot of environmental basis for that.

And so to see the

brush and the forest to be burned, I mean, it was like 40, 80 acres.

It was like so many.

It was awful.

I felt responsible and really bad.

I also feel like it's a cop-out too, because we have real climate change issues to address.

And it's much easier to say, hey, there's these two idiots in the forest having a gender reveal party, which is problematic, but also there's a hundred thousand forest fires a year.

Why?

Climate change.

You know what I mean?

So I kind of like, I don't feel as bad anymore.

That makes a lot of sense.

I mean, yeah, it's not good that these things happen.

And

I don't know, it kind of reminds me of the straw thing.

We like to feel like we as individuals have more power over these huge things that are often led by like corporations that are seemingly untouchable.

But it's, you know, easier easier if we feel like we have something to point the finger at that we can control i'm not here to say stop making fun of gender reveal people who cause natural disasters

i think we should shame these people i think we should keep shaming these people there was the couple in brazil who did you see this one with the waterfall oh i think so yeah they died a waterfall that's right i think i did they died a waterfall which contaminated the water supply of a nearby poverty stricken town

Like, go to hell.

Why are they doing this?

Go to hell.

Absolutely.

Go to hell.

You know why they're doing this, Jenna?

Because their baby has a penis.

That's why.

So

I guess I want to ask, first of all, you kind of went viral again in 2019 because these articles started popping up that were, you know, and 2019 is like around the time that like the natural disaster stuff starts really like cropping up in popular media.

And these articles start circulating around the same time that are like, this woman invented it.

And like there was, um, there felt like a blame component.

Well, I mean, I, there is a blame component to it because, first of all, I am one person that it's easy to blame.

Second of all, they don't have anybody to call because when these crimes happen, okay, when you're out here, you know, killing your grandma with a pipe bomb, I'm sorry, no insensitivity to the family, but like, what are you doing?

I don't know if you have to bleep me or what, but like.

oh, no, we don't.

You can say fuck, Jenna.

Say fuck.

Yeah, okay.

Like, what the fuck are you doing out here making a building a pipe bomb?

These people are unavailable for comment.

They're under investigation, right?

They don't have anybody to call.

Who do they call?

Me.

And you would think that I would maybe stop giving a quote.

Maybe I would stop, but I don't for two reasons.

One, I pick up the phone because it's my opportunity to affirm trans people, to, you know, disparage the gender binary and to talk a little bit about some things that need to to be talked about.

Every once in a while, I can work a little climate change in there.

Sorry.

But secondly, I have also found out that I became that person and there's nothing I can do about it.

I actually have an editor of this magazine who shall go unnamed.

And she said to me, I said, listen, I was actually crying.

I was like, can you just stop writing about me?

Can you please just not mention me?

Like, why are we doing this?

Like, go.

This is a story out there with these people.

Like, why are you calling me?

Right.

And she said, Jenna, the story is going to be written with or without you and it's going to be about you so you can either give me a quote or you can say nothing and we'll just write about you and i was like

scared me to death so now i'm like all right

um i could probably at this point not but they were running photos of your family

yeah that was our christmas card picture which i posted not uh thinking anything of it i was just like merry christmas and there we are and then my uh one of my daughters was in a tuxedo and she looked fabulously dashing and I guess that made it a story.

Right, like gender reveal inventor's daughter wears suits now.

Yeah, she looked awesome.

Which is, I mean, that is, that, that is a compelling story.

I just wish that you were the one to tell it, I guess, which is, which is why you're here.

I just wasn't, you know, ready.

I didn't know.

People, people have this idea of like, oh, that, that gender reveal lady is out there getting attention on herself.

I've literally never called one person and been like, hey, I've got a story for you.

I'm the gender reveal lady.

Like, that's not how it works.

You don't know when or how things are going to go viral.

I mean, you could be walking down the street and next thing you know, you're a meme.

That's kind of the like randomness of it.

So yeah, I wasn't really ready for that, but I'm actually fortunate that I got an opportunity to say what I had to say.

Let the record show that Jenna did not contact me and was like, I'm the gender reveal lady and I'd love to tell my story.

I reached out to Jenna and I was like, you're the gender reveal lady and I'd love to tell your story.

So this article has come out, whatever.

How responsible or not responsible do you feel for like the crazy shit that transpires now?

Because I know like you were, you were sad and you cried when you first saw the wildfires and I can imagine that there is like a big personal tie-in to the emotion there.

But like, you know, this now happens.

often and I doubt that you react with the same intensity every time.

No, I mean, it's like getting mad at the Wright brothers every time there's a plane crash or something.

Like, who would have been a happy birthday?

But how many people have like died at their birthday party because they, you know, got drunk in a pool or something?

I mean, I don't have any control over these people or what they're doing.

I wish they would stop.

I mean, I've said to stop, but I don't think anybody's necessarily going to do what I say because I said so.

But yeah, it would be great if like they didn't blow things up anymore.

But I really kind of feel like it's the reason why it maybe got so crazy is because there's there's been this huge division like politically as far as like ideology.

And I feel like they're going to more and more lengths to punctuate their point that we believe a baby is a boy or a girl.

And I'm going to shoot my gun off to

violently punctuate that.

So you know, this is the type of family we are.

And it's like, oh, no.

Like,

if that...

is your point of view.

I don't know that I can necessarily do anything about it.

That sucks.

And I wish it wasn't like that.

But for anybody who's kind of in the middle ground that was like, oh, I was thinking about doing a gender reveal, I thought that might be kind of cute for my family.

Just think about who you're aligning yourself with.

Just think, hey, maybe I have a, maybe I have a party, but like, I celebrate in a different way.

Like, I don't know.

Right.

It's when you had your gender reveal in 2008, you weren't like going onto Facebook after that and being like, hashtag two genders, back the blue, make America great again.

Like that was not what was happening.

No,

no, no, no.

It does feel a little more, you're right, it does feel a little more like

politically intentional because now

these parties are existing in the context of like a political moment where like trans issues and like the moral panic around transgender and just like LGBTQ identities have swept up this country in a way that like I feel like if you have a gender reveal now, not that you're necessarily doing it to make a political statement, but it like exists in the context and is inseparable from the context of like this war over gender that's happening in the United States right now.

I wrote a paper that's being published this spring, this coming spring,

about basically that trans men are the real target of anti-abortion laws, that it has more to do with than just controlling women.

It really has to do with getting a trans

body more in line with where they want it to be.

Because surprisingly, actually, a lot of trans men need abortions.

abortions and it's not really something that a lot of people talk about but whenever you look at like the legislation politically and you track it and you see who made what law what do they say while they were making the law and who does it really attack it dovetails so much with trans issues and and people don't even realize it's like an invisible force of politics right now and it's It's sad and it's awful to deny the humanity of people who just want to live their lives.

I feel like a lot of people listening to this are going to be very surprised to know that the woman who invented the gender reveal is now writing papers on like the importance of the intersection of trans issues and reproductive health issues.

Yeah, that's the truth.

It will be published by the Southwestern Law Review this spring.

Wait, so what are you, what are you doing now professionally?

You said you're in law school.

You finished law school.

Yes.

And so now I'm working as a lawyer.

I'm waiting on my bar results to come in.

So I will not officially be an attorney until November.

But yeah.

And so I'm actually working professionally, law-wise, I'm working in eviction defense at the center of the housing crisis in L.A., keeping people housed.

That's incredible, Jenna.

That's really, really fucking cool.

It's fun.

So your approach to parenting and the way that like the concept of gender is involved in that job has shifted massively.

Perhaps in part because of your relationship to this gender reveal nonsense.

But I think for most parents in the US and around the world, gender is still one of the biggest determining factors in the way that they raise their children.

Why do you think that is?

And why do you think it's wrong?

I think it's really based in patriarchy.

And as much as we do criticize American culture, I mean, you know, we're a bunch of hillbillies in a lot of ways.

I think it is actually a pretty progressive place, you know, overall.

We can always look to Europe as like a way to be better, but there are a lot of parts of the world where the patriarchy is very entrenched in the culture completely.

And this party has now gone on around the world.

I think because the patriarchy is so strong, there's really an idea that men are leaders, that boys will inherit.

the estate, that the girls are made for a different purpose, for serving, for, you know, not for leadership and so um you know it's such a huge part about like which type of child am I gonna have am I gonna have a helpmate or am I gonna have a warrior you know and it's um

I don't want to be insensitive to other cultures but I also don't think culture is an excuse for for harming someone

so I think that's kind of why it's kind of caught on around the world you know there are a lot of places in the world where knowing the sex of a baby ahead of time is illegal.

India is one of those places.

You're not allowed to know or do do anything to find out.

You know, you can't go to an ultrasound and find out if you're having a boy or a girl because they're so worried about infanticide.

They're worried about baby girls being killed.

You know, when you see these gender reveal parties and you see the dad being so upset, you see, oh, that's why they do that.

Yeah, he was just that disappointment that you saw on that dad's face at that gender reveal party.

That happens.

And that's why India has that law.

Because you don't know.

Is he disappointed or is he angry?

You know, it's scary.

And I feel like there is this thing where parents think that raising their kids with gendered expectations will make their kids lives easier, if that makes sense.

And I think about this from a personal space because like when I was growing up, my

parents really, you know, again, once We started, you know, once I got to like elementary school and kids started to become a little bit more aware of what gender meant and the way that they were supposed to behave, my parents would tell me to stop.

I mean, I think about pink and purple so much.

I know I already mentioned that, and it sounds like silly because it's like crayons.

Like, who gives a fuck?

But my parents would be like, you really, really need to start like using like blue and like orange and stuff because if you keep doing the pink shit, kids are going to make fun of you.

And like, I love my parents.

I'm really close with them.

But that was kind of, um,

it felt like their judgment onto me under the guise of wanting things to be easier easier for me.

You know, behave more masculine and things will be easier for you and kids will be nicer to you.

And I, for the record, think that they truly believed that.

And I think that it came from a place of love and wanting things to be easier for me.

You know, like, I will speak frankly, like, life is going to be easier for you if you're not a faggot.

You know, it's not something my parents said, but.

might as well.

And I mean, I think of this quote all the time of like, you know, don't be your child's first bully.

Because if I'm naturally gravitating towards the pink and the purple and the skirts and the this and that, it's like, you can't change that.

You can't change your child's interests.

You can't change if your young daughter wants to wear a suit or hates dresses or, you know, you can't do anything about that stuff.

All you can do is make a decision of how you will respond to it.

And you also can't.

control, unfortunately, how kids will treat them in school, but you can be their advocate.

And so whenever I hear this stuff about like, we just want to make sure we're raising him in a way where other kids will be nice to him.

And I'm like, will you be nice to him?

And if other kids aren't, then like be their advocate.

You know, I think what it comes down to to circle back to building a community for your child,

I can see parents having a fear, not only of the other kids making fun of their child, but of the other parents.

of those kids being like, oh, that one, don't invite that one to a sleepover or or don't, you know, invite that one to your birthday party.

And I think those are very, very painful things and things that I've, you know, had to consider as a as a parent of, you know, a child who's one of the rainbow colors.

And, you know,

is that your older daughter, your first daughter?

Yeah, that's, you know, that's her, that's her story to tell on her own when she's, you know, ready and stuff.

But it's, it's considerations that I've had.

And the conclusion that I've come to as a parent is like, well, it's my job to build a community where she feels safe

why I don't want you over at that house if that's how that family feels you know I don't want you to be around people who who think like that and that it's really difficult because you can you know a little kid can kind of get a you know be on the out like the out crowd and it sucks to be out i mean it sucks as a grown adult to be left out of like my friends having drinks without me how bad does it suck to be like you know a 10 year old not even getting invited to a birthday party because they had bigot parents?

So you just got to watch who you're raising your children around.

And I think parents need to walk into parenthood knowing, hey, this kid may not be straight.

This kid may not be a million things.

I need to make sure that I'm building from day one who the type of people who I want to be around my kid.

And don't be a freaking asshole.

Yeah.

If you're an asshole and you're listening to this, stop it.

Yeah.

Well, and I, I do, I mean, it's, I don't know, compassion is so important because I do hear what you're saying.

And, you know, I've never been a parent but i can imagine like you want to set your kid up for success and you also have to weigh the costs and benefits so like success can't just be i want my kid to get invited to all of the birthday parties if the cost of that is forcing my kid to you know kind of round out their edges at every turn and change the way that they are Absolutely.

Because it also like there is something to be said for like, it is traumatizing.

I mean, I remember when I was in third grade, just going to say his first name, Michael, I invited you to my birthday party.

I invited you to my birthday party, and you did not invite me to yours.

And this is something that I know, I know, my mother and I still talk about this.

Yeah, as you should.

And for the record, I blame his parents.

But

see, assholes.

Michael's parents are assholes.

I've said it since John.

Is there a version of a gender reveal party that you think can or should exist?

My favorite ones are when trans people announce their new pronouns.

That's a real gender reveal.

Yeah, do it for yourself.

Other than that, no.

That's kind of everything.

I agree with you.

That and like maybe if a new gender comes out.

Yeah.

If there's a new gender, I mean, my issue with gender reveals is that every time it's a gender that I've heard of.

If we're going to reveal a gender, reveal a new gender at least, you know?

Yeah,

exactly.

Somebody was saying that the Barbie movie was their gender.

I was like, you know what?

I think I identify.

Work.

On

June 27th, 2019, I posted something on Instagram.

And my Instagram four years ago, I still don't think it's very polished.

I still kind of post, whatever, we all grow.

But I posted this thing that just said, gender reveals are bullshit.

Oh,

I, because I had already, I, that was when I started seeing all the cakes, all the, the, the two-twoser touchdowns cakes.

And I had, you know, a strong reaction to them because from the jump, that was not something that felt right with me at all based on, you know, my own experience with growing up being who I was and being feminine and all of that.

So I posted that expecting like no pushback, honestly.

I was like, whatever.

Like, even then, I had a, I had a small following, but it was still people who I thought would agree with me on like that.

And at the time, God bless 19-year-old me,

at the time, that was like the most controversial thing I ever posted because I got hundreds of comments.

I got over a thousand comments, which again, I didn't have a lot of followers then.

I got over a thousand comments.

And I remember I lost so many followers because people were like, I, you know, I agree, gay rights, yada, yada, because there wasn't, there wasn't a whole lot to my content at that point, honestly.

It was like, I'm gay, you know.

But there were so many people being like, how could you be so against, you know, the way that someone else chooses to have fun?

And I did, interestingly, get a lot, not a lot, but a few comments that I really remember from people being like, my mother or my aunt or my sister or someone I know really struggled with getting pregnant or with their pregnancy and

having a gender reveal party was one of the few things that they were really excited and looking forward to.

And I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

I don't want to be an insufferable social justice warrior at every turn.

I don't want to rob you of your fun.

I don't want also like if you're listening to this and you're like planning your gender reveal or like you have a friend who had a gender reveal or like you're going to a gender reveal next week, whatever.

I want to say here and now, I don't agree with them.

And also, if you have a gender reveal party, I'm not coming to your door with an arrest warrant.

It's fine.

People will say, you know, well, if my kid doesn't turn out to be trans, then there was never a problem with the gender reveal and the gender reveal did no harm.

And I'm like, no, because the gender reveal is not just about enforcing cisness, but it's also about enforcing like masculinity on

and femininity based on genitalia and all of these things that affect all of us, regardless of whether we turn out to be cisgender or transgender people.

It's not like everyone who's cisgender is like also identifying with the rigid social constructs of what it means to be a man and a woman.

So that's why I'm like, there isn't really a way to do this that doesn't essentialize all of the bad things about people's misunderstandings about gender.

Like, I just don't think there is.

Absolutely.

I think you make great points.

I think it's the type of thing where it's kind of like racism hurts everyone.

It hurts certain people, obviously, way worse, but it's really not creating equality for everyone at the same time.

And it's the same way.

It's like, you know, yeah, the people who are hurt the worst are the people who are at the intersection of all the things, right?

But it's really not a great situation to have these uber masculine ideas of toxic masculinity on everyone.

I mean, you know, it's like even the manliest, straightest cis dude out there should.

you know, be able to cry or wear nail polish or whatever.

So I think you're totally right.

It harms everyone and there's no real like awesome way to have like a gender reveal party.

But what's kind of interesting what you're saying is how you're saying you got all these haters in 2019 when you dared even criticize the gender reveal party a little bit.

And in 2019, when this story re-went viral, that's whenever it was in people and all this kind of stuff about my daughter wearing the tuxedo.

I actually got a lot of praise.

I felt people were like, this woman,

she's great.

And the gender reveal party, and it wasn't really like that much criticism about it, although I was criticizing it.

What happened, though, over the years, like in the following years, now it's 2023.

I get lots of hate.

And I'm going to imagine that you get a lot less hate if you were to post that today.

I criticize gender reveal parties all the time.

I make fun of them religiously.

It's like a pillar of my identity to make fun of these people at this point.

No,

people do not get mad at me the way that they used to.

I mean, like conservatives get mad at me, but they get mad at me for waking up in the morning.

So, that's like kind of fine.

But, what do you, what are people getting mad at you now about?

Well, now, I mean, now it's like, oh, this terrible woman who, you know,

she's the reason we have the binary and she's the source of the problems of the gender construct and all this, like, and that.

And it's like, well, I think actually

the comments that I have made that have made their way to mainstream media in these very major global outlets have actually influenced that.

And people aren't even realizing where they're getting the ideas from.

Do you know what I mean?

Because in 2019, when this first came out, it was like everyone loved gender reveal parties.

And they were like, yay, we know the lady who invented it.

And I was like, it's a terrible idea.

And by the way, this is not my son.

This is my daughter in a blue tuxedo.

She just has very, very short hair.

People weren't praising you for criticizing them.

People were praising you for having invented them.

Yes.

People were praising me for having invented the gender reveal party.

And I was like criticizing it.

And I just kept chipping away and

I always criticize it.

And so now I think there's a lot of people who criticize it.

Obviously, so many people criticize it.

I'm not saying I'm the only reason why the criticism has grown, but I definitely am a very vocal person

as far as as visibility and criticism goes.

And I think that that criticism has made its way into the mainstream a little bit more to where now it is a conservative thing to be celebrating the gender reveal party.

Look, we all struggle.

We all struggle with the gender binary.

We all struggle with patriarchy.

We all struggle with the ridiculousness of gender reveals, but like we have to admit to ourselves that that struggle is complex and shared.

And pointing the finger allows us to feel better, but it doesn't actually accomplish anything.

And so, Jenna, I'm not here to tell you that you invented the patriarchy, even if that's something that might

feel like it alleviates alleviates some pain.

Someone who speaks really eloquently to the inherent transphobia of gender reveals is a creator and a poet, and a speaker named Alok Vedmanan, they're also my friend.

And they wrote, The gender binary requires that we adopt prescriptive ideas of gender, in parentheses, what men and women should be, as descriptive ideas of gender, in parentheses, what men and women fundamentally are.

In this way, it naturalizes cultural myths as biological facts.

The irony is that trans and gender non-conforming people are accused of advancing a, quote, gender ideology, when in fact we are trying to escape it.

The real ideology at play here is a system which romanticizes the denial of individuality in service of maintaining category, which I think is just better than I could have ever written it.

I'm pulling up the quote here, and I'm reading it again.

Absolutely.

You know, it's more,

it doesn't fit in the world the way I think it used to fit.

At some point when the world was much more transphobic, just trans illiterate, just gay illiterate, just that it didn't exist.

I mean, it did exist, but its existence was concealed.

Because I think as a matter of survival, people were like, well, working within a framework, everybody was working in a framework that had to conceal it.

And now, hopefully it's gotten more enlightened.

Hopefully the visibility has gotten out more to where it's like, it's not just an automatic given that you conceal these things anymore.

I remember whenever I was growing up, like watching like Sally, Jesse, Raphael, like it was a long time ago.

And there was a transgender person on there.

And it was like they were using what is now a slur to talk about this person.

Yeah.

There was a rare bit of sensitivity coming out about the transgender person, but it was like mainly a laughing stock.

It was mainly a spectacle.

It was mainly something that you just gawked at because we didn't know because it was concealed so much.

And I'm I'm so grateful for people who don't conceal themselves anymore and allow us to really see who they are because that really does benefit everybody.

I want to raise kids in a world where we see people for who they are and we don't just

prescriptively, as your friend said, tell them this is your role.

This is what you're doing and have to make yourself small and fit somewhere you don't.

Because it makes the path so much harder for everyone else who wants to come out there and be who they are.

So I think what you said, I think trans illiterate is such a great term, gay illiterate, because I wrote something recently about a trans woman named Christine Jorgensen, who was formerly before she transited, this was like in the 60s, I think.

She was like a GI in the military and then was

discharged.

I think that's what it's called when you leave the military.

Sorry, guys.

But she then transitioned and she, I think, was the first trans woman in the United States to have gender reassignment surgery.

I'm not totally sure on all of these, but what's interesting is that so much of the media, and this is diverting a little bit from our main topic, but it's interesting, that so much of the coverage, the early coverage around Christine Jorgensen, was like, wow, look how beautiful this woman is.

Look how she went from, you know,

a military veteran to being this gorgeous blonde bombshell.

That was like the big headline in I think the New York Daily News, which is like famously anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-everything, was like, it was XGI becomes blonde beauty.

And it's so interesting.

And I shared that and a lot of people were saying like, wow, we were less transphobic.

It's interesting because it's not necessarily that people were less transphobic.

People just like didn't,

trans illiterate.

People didn't even know.

So that they saw a trans person, they were like, wow, like, what a medical miracle, you know?

The cruelty hadn't been developed yet.

You know, that's very interesting because there was the first woman lawyer in the United States, I believe, with some live law school.

And the thing that stuck out about me was nobody had any problem with her at all being a lawyer.

Nobody had a problem with it.

It was like, oh,

she was a lawyer and nobody cared.

But then, as there got to be more,

there got to be more female lawyers, then it became, oh, nope, sorry, you can't be in the voice club.

Right.

And so I wonder if almost as visibility increases for trans people, then it becomes a problem.

There was someone I was talking to who hired a black manager at their work, whatever.

Guy was black, right?

But then they hired a second black manager, and they were telling me that when they started to put more black people in management, that the higher up at their job kind of went.

Like they didn't say anything, but there was this little subtle racism there.

Like one is okay, but two, hmm.

and it's almost like, is that what we're seeing with trans people?

It's like, oh, well, there was the, there was one, you know, a long time, oh, one person, that's fine.

But maybe the threat comes, the people feel threatened, obviously, illogically, stupidly, with their being more in numbers.

They feel that their normalcy is being upset.

Yep.

I think people perceive it as,

you know, assist people see it as needing to cede their own power.

Right.

Instead of what it actually is, which is is more freedom for all of us.

Because when we abandon these shackles of gender expectations and gender binary and what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman, that's not just benefiting trans people.

It's benefiting you and I.

It's benefiting everyone.

So before we close out, I want to

revisit your your

your mommy blogger roots, the mommy blogger within.

I also unfortunately want to revisit the Republican primary debate, which just happened.

Oh, I didn't watch.

Yeah, I watched.

I put myself through hell, but hey, I don't know.

Vivek Ramaswamy, who's one of the more notably unhinged candidates, said,

I'm sorry, it is not compassionate to affirm a kid's confusion.

That is not compassion.

That is cruelty.

So I would like your thoughts as a parent who does affirm her children and just as a parent who I think has notably shown, I mean, you've shown a lot of growth.

You've spoken openly about doing something which became popular and which now you regret.

And I think that's like a really rare event in a world that values consistency over almost anything.

If you make a point, you have to back it up and you have to stick to it.

Otherwise, you don't believe in anything.

But I think you do have a really strong belief system.

And I think that you've grown and learned and been amenable to adapting that belief system.

So, with all that being said, what do you make of that quote?

I think it came from his ass

because the numbers and the statistics and the doctors and the healthcare will tell you, the healthcare professionals will tell you suicide rates are so high for children who do not get gender-affirming care or attitudes from their families.

I mean, it's just a fact that gay people, LGBTQ, plus non-binary people are at higher risk of mental health

problems and also, you know, and suicide.

I don't know if I'm if I can say that.

I know sometimes there's like trigger warnings, but it's the cold hard fact is the truth that if children are denied gender affirming,

you know, and it doesn't necessarily mean like, you know, surgery is like people are immediately coming to these conclusions, but gender affirming care and love from their families, it can be deathly.

It can really risk their lives and their health,

not to mention their happiness.

So, no, no,

I don't agree with him that cruelty, cruelty is listening to him.

I wouldn't vote for him for anything.

I wouldn't either.

But also, I think to your point, it's affirming your queer kid is the key to their happiness, but

is happiness the goal that all parents have for their children?

Like, I don't really think so.

I think it's to keep your child alive.

I think you want to keep your child alive.

It's just, why would you risk?

And also, why do you care?

What the hell?

Why do people care who is gay and who is not and who, what gender somebody wants to be?

Let people just live their lives.

Like, what does it matter?

You know what?

Maybe it's a little weird that he's a little preoccupied.

Why are people so preoccupied?

Oh, like, who's my kid?

Gonna want a bone in 20 years.

Like, who cares?

Bone who you want.

It's none of my business.

You heard it here first.

Well, Jenna, thank you so, so much for joining us today and for telling your story and for being vulnerable.

I really appreciate it.

And honestly,

again, I think it's really rare for someone to be like,

I was wrong and I regret this thing and I've changed a lot and I think differently.

And

that is so special.

And I'm glad we could do it here today.

Jenna, where can people find you now, if anywhere?

Is there a way people can support you or your work or just see what's up with with you?

Yeah, they can see what's up with me.

I'm on Instagram at Jenna Carvanitas.

Don't even bother trying to spell that.

Just Google gender reveal inventor.

My last name will pop up.

It's got 100 letters.

And then I'm on Facebook at High Gloss Sauce.

High Gloss and Sauce Lives On.

The blog name lives on.

Yeah.

Not the blog.

I took the blog off ages ago because I don't want kids' privacy out there.

Yeah.

Them like on the toilet when they're two.

They don't, we don't need that.

If you enjoyed this episode, feel free to share it with your friend, your mom, your aunt who is on the precipice of blowing up her small town to let people know that her fetus has a penis.

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I'm grateful for you.

And until next next time, stay fruity.