Becoming a Woman (with Miss Benny)

Caitlin Jenner, to these people, is the exact same person as Dylan Mulvaney.

And what I don't think people like Caitlin realize is that when it comes time for gender-affirming care to be stripped away from people, it will affect her as well.

Hello, hello.

I'm Matt Bernstein, and I am so excited to welcome you to A Bit Fruity, the weekly podcast where we'll be joined by celebrities, journalists, thought leaders, and experts and just dive deeper into the people, the events, the culture wars that are shaping the world around us.

I am truly so grateful and happy that you're here today.

If you like this podcast, you can follow us on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcast to be notified when we release new episodes.

You can also find us on Instagram at AbitFruityPod and on YouTube.

All of those links will be in the episode description.

Today, we are joined by an extremely special guest.

She and I have been friends since both of our past lives.

She is now the star of her own Netflix show, Glamorous.

She's also newly out to the world as a transgender woman.

We have a really great conversation for you today about dating as trans women and feminine gay people.

We talk some shit about gay Republicans and why they can't accept the rest of the community and often themselves.

We talk about what it was like for her to go back and play a formerly cis gay male version of herself once she was already out as a trans woman.

It was a really special and meaningful conversation.

And she's a star.

She is glamorous.

She's a lady.

Please welcome Miss Benny.

Hi.

I'm so excited to be here.

This is so surreal and fun for us.

Should we start with where we met, how we met, the beginnings of us knowing each other?

Because I really do feel like we were both in past lives.

Yeah, we were in like queer infancy and it's like purest form.

I don't actually remember how we met.

I know it was like the internet because

we were in different cities, but I just remember like one day I didn't know you and then the next day I knew you.

And then the next thing I knew, I was crashing at your place and we were doing each other's makeup in your bedroom on the floor.

Or like inches from each other.

Yes.

So I was.

a college student and I was living with my roommate at the time in this, it was in the Lower East East Side.

It was a sixth floor walkup, a lot of mice.

It was the kind of, and like, this is so gross, but like, it was just the period of my life that I was in five years ago where like you couldn't really walk barefoot in the apartment

without the bottom of your feet turning black sort of situation.

And how, how kind were you not to even remark about that?

It was so funny because we, I was like, so like, I love makeup.

I wear makeup, but then I was so scared to be like too like womanly about it, like, whatever the hell that means.

No, totally.

And so, you and I were like being so delicate in how we put it on, but we both clearly wanted to like go heavy.

Well, what's so funny is I remember us sitting on the floor for like actually an hour and a half, probably like doing our makeup.

And then this morning, in preparation for recording this, I went back and I looked at the pictures of us, and you were wearing like a wink of eyeshadow.

I think like two shades of it, like neutrals it was like tiny tiny neutral yeah exactly

um

but and and i don't think we actually went anywhere because we were both 19.

yeah

even if you have a fake id it's really hard to use it in manhattan because places are really strict we also were very like

if i remember correctly we were like dressed in like devil and angel yes something like there was some sort of costume element that i genuinely don't remember how it came about but when i see those photos i'm like oh you're literally like a Hell's Kitchen demon twink.

Like you're literally in that photo, you are exactly that description.

And then I don't know what the hell I was, but it's cute.

We got dinner one night at the Flame Diner in Hell's Kitchen.

Oh my God, I walked all the way there from where I was, wherever I was before.

And it was like way too long for my LA legs, by the way.

I think I remember telling you, I was like, oh, I walked here.

It was so chic.

Meanwhile, I was like panicking on the walk over because I was like, this is not for me.

I remember we sat down and you were like, cute inner corner highlight.

You know, I was really looking, I was really looking for affirmation at that point in makeup because I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.

And I was like, let me be a little bitch about this.

I'm going to make this little one feel so bad.

Well, you did, you did make me feel bad, but you were like, you know, if I were you,

have you thought of mascara?

And I was like,

have you ever, this is so weird.

Have you ever thought of putting on makeup?

I was really, wow.

It was because I didn't know what I was doing.

And I was like, honestly, I think mascara looks bad on me.

And it was, you know, I didn't.

I didn't know how to do my makeup.

And I do want to say this was me trying to protect you because the first like two years that I wore makeup when I was like 14 and 15, I, for some reason in my mind, doing eyeshadow felt like no one knows that I'm wearing this.

But wearing mascara was like, oh my God, I've put, you know, the glitz and the glam on.

And so I used to put on like like a wash, what we call garage doors of just red, I mean like bright red eyeshadow.

And then I wouldn't dare put on mascara because I was like, no, then it's like punk.

It's like, I didn't try.

Like it seems like effortless.

And when I looked back at those photos, even then, I remember thinking, what an idiot.

You got to put mascara on or it just looks like you didn't finish.

And so I was trying to protect you from what like I had been in that moment processing for the first time.

But

I do also believe me in in that era being like, oh, that's so cute.

Like, no mascara, no problem.

That's fun.

Good for you.

Like, it's like an intentional artistic choice and just like a nod just means.

I just love that you'll just really like

go out.

Well, for me, it was like mascara and lipstick.

I like couldn't because it was, if I wore those, then I was like actually being gay and like approximating a woman more closely than was within my comfort level.

Right.

Side note, do you know what album was written in the flame diner

what album was written in the flame diner um no i don't i mean i want to think flame was it like

dolly parton's fuel to the flame era no this is a fun fact trivia that i confirmed last night while i was making show notes for today melodrama in the flame diner Yeah, because Lorde was recording for that album in New York City.

Wow.

And her like late night refuge to like go and write and like be at peace with her creative process was literally the flame diner.

Do you think we knew that at that time?

Because that would have gagged me then.

Yeah, definitely not.

But I just like imagine Lord sitting there with like the sticky, like the syrupy, sticky tabletops of like.

Do you think she was wearing mascara?

Or do you think she was also scared of being too womanly?

Do you think she was like, this is too much?

I'm just going to wear a little bit of inner corner.

And Jack Antonoff was like, love the inner corner, Diva.

So let's get into it.

You, we were 19 around the time that we met, and you say that you feel like you were on your third life.

And in a way,

I feel like you were in a way that I definitely wasn't yet.

And so I don't want to stay here long, but I want to revisit the first time I remember seeing you, which was not when we met, which was on the internet.

Craigslist.

Yeah.

R.I.P.

Craigslist.

No, it was on, I think it was on Tumblr or YouTube or something.

You, so you have been a recording artist.

You are a recording artist now and you have had,

you have had eras.

Yeah.

And the earliest of which that I saw was you had a song.

I promise we won't stay here long, but you had a song called Little Game.

No, I'm very proud of this.

It's cringy in the same way that like looking at photos from when you were 13 or 14 are, you know.

Totally.

And so I want to quickly describe Little Game.

I feel like if you're listening to this podcast, you may have seen it around 2014.

But the music video for this song, which was about kind of

rejecting gender norms and gendered expectations for, you know, teenagers, men, and women,

went, the music video went incredibly viral and it showed, you know, it was a very like kind of

cut and dry, like pink and blue representation of like these six teenagers three boys and three girls who were like

terrified to reject what was expected of them as like young boys and girls and then they do and it's kind of this like glorious crescendo and then miss benny is there like with the blue and pink colored powder on her face and it was like extremely i feel like it was one of like the seminal pieces of

early 2010s tumbler aestheticized gender norm breakage, which sounds like an extremely specific genre of media, but like it has 33 million views on YouTube as of right now.

It's crazy.

And like almost 50,000 comments.

And I remember seeing it on Tumblr YouTube or something as like, everyone was like, you guys have to watch this.

And like, indeed, I did, because even though, yeah, now you look back and it's like, the visuals,

I don't think it's something Miss Benny would put out today.

I filmed it with like a Canon T3i, handheld, out of focus.

Like,

it was so sweet.

First of all, the funny one is that at that time, I was, I wasn't even out as gay to my family or my friends at the time,

let alone trans.

And so at that point, I was like, I'm just such a fierce ally.

Like, I'm doing something so sweet for these people.

It's so cool of me.

And then I had never written or produced a song before.

So that was like the first time I'd ever done that.

That song's not even like mixed or mastered.

Like it's so embarrassing now as like a music producer.

I'm going to like nod like I know what that means.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's very, it's very much what Lorde was talking about with melodrama.

But it's crazy that it wasn't mixed or mastered.

It's crazy.

So embarrassing.

But it also was like,

I shot that whole music video myself.

I mean, most of it was on a tripod and the rest I was hand held.

It's so funny because when I look back at it, I, you know, obviously I have parts of me that cringe for how, you know, rough around the edges it is, but I'm also just like impressed with how bold I was at that age to be like, not only am I going to make something that's so like topically controversial, especially in my hometown in Texas, but also to like decide, oh, I'm going to produce and create a moment and I'm going to put it out there and it's going to have its own legs.

And it's pretty crazy.

I mean, I think it's just had such an impact that I never would have expected.

And at at the time, I just, I remember thinking, like, oh my God, maybe it'll get like 10,000 views.

And then it did that in the first day.

And I was like, I don't even have 10,000 like followers or subscribers.

So I don't know how that happened.

And then I think I went to bed that night and woke up and it had like 300,000.

And then it just kept growing and growing.

And it's, it's pretty insane.

I mean, at the time, that genre was so specific that it was like me and Hailey Kyoko with Girls Like Girls.

With Girls Like Girls, another seminal piece.

Incredible, which again, when you look back at it, you're like, oh, this is so like sweet and like not at all controversial to look at but at the time it was like really shocking for a lot of people so yeah I remember at that time being like oh it's cool me and Haile Kyoko like she played Stevie and the wizards of Waverly Place that's fun and then all of a sudden like it just kind of we got associated together and it was sort of this tumbler wave it's pretty cool What's interesting about Little Game, you know, I watched that video when I was a teenager.

It had a big effect on me.

And I know it was having a big effect on a lot of other like teenagers at the time.

But, you know, I've grown up.

I haven't, I haven't like watched Little Game in a while.

And you've never talked about anything relating to gender ever again.

But I was, I went back and I looked at some of the recent YouTube comments.

You know, I went to the YouTube video and I.

clicked newest for the comment board.

Oh my God.

And I have some screenshots of them that I want to read to you in no particular order.

Okay.

I haven't read these in almost like, I want to say nine years, maybe 10 years, however long I read them for the first like six months and then I stopped.

So this is all new to me.

Well, the viewers of Little Game are back and they're adults and everyone's gay.

So

Toby says, every transgender person has a deep history with this song.

Bluesman says, I used to listen to this when I was younger and now I'm trans mask.

I think this is where I started to realize.

Wow.

Now I'm back.

Loved this song as a kid.

I'm transgender.

How funny.

It should have given me clues sooner.

Oh my God.

Gooey Gastre30 says, I'm back in 2023.

And yes, I am trans.

Stole TG Toby's Gender says, this was my childhood song.

I can see why I'm transgender.

These are all in the last week, by the way.

Wow.

Listening to this song again as a trans man, is it weird that it hits differently?

Oh, wow.

I watched this on repeat in middle school and now i'm trans oh my gosh also

you miss benny are trans

did is it

spoiler

spoilers

well i don't know why i said that like an accusation like you're transgender no it's fine you could accuse me of that i'll take the allegation

it's like almost prophetic in a sense that you made this thing when you know you were in like eighth or ninth grade that

was almost like foreshadowing not only for your own like

journey with sexuality and gender but also for like millions of other people it's crazy i mean it's truly a testament of you know yourself better than you realize i at the time like i had no concern that i was trans like i i literally at that time was like praying to wake up as a girl.

I remember thinking like, I'm not trans, but like, if I could wake up tomorrow and like suddenly be like my sisters, like, I would do that.

But wouldn't everybody?

Like, I was in such denial about it that I thought I was just sort of advocating and being such like a good little ally.

It's funny, like, you would think that I would have known earlier because of the topic of the song and how that kind of became my platform.

But I mean, truly, I was in such denial that I was like, let me do it.

Let me do these girls a favor.

Let me give them a little treat and then I'll leave.

Yeah, well, I was watching the video now and then knowing that you're trans and just looking back in hindsight, it's like, oh, this song and video are very much about being transgender.

Literally.

Like the, like the, there's two of the actors, one of like the young boys and girls at the end, they like basically like swap pink and blue as this like symbolic, you know, crossing over to the other side.

And I'm like, oh yeah, like this is about being trans, even if she didn't know it yet.

I wish that I could go back and interview myself like behind closed doors because I know at the time I was very like media trained about how I wanted to talk about it because I was still closeted and like figuring things out and so I didn't really have the vocabulary but I think had I been able to talk about it freely I would have had maybe some of those thoughts articulated because at the time what I was doing just felt so instinctual I mean I even think about that moment towards the end like it's so like angsty and kind of like I don't know there's something kind of punk about it that I like but at the time I didn't really know that I was just like this makes sense for a story for me I wish that I could go back and ask myself like how do you really feel about this?

Because I don't think I would have talked candidly to anybody about it at that time.

But watching it now, it's just, I mean, I haven't watched it myself in a long time, just being completely transparent.

But at the time, I remember just or like in the most recent years thinking about it, like, I just, it's so bold.

Like, you would think that I knew exactly what I was doing, but I really did it.

So, you were out as gay for quite a while before you were out as trans.

Did you have separate awakenings or was your coming out as gay consciously or subconsciously maybe

a step in the direction that you were going to end up going in?

My awakening for being gay and my awakening for being trans were definitely, I say separate, but when I say that, I mean the moment that I like came to peace about it were separate.

Cause I feel feel like maybe a lot of gay people relate to this, but like, I knew I was gay very young.

Yeah.

I mean, I remember having my first crush on a boy when I was on a soccer team when I was like seven or eight.

And we, we were both really bad at soccer, so we would just pick the flowers by the goal and give them to each other.

I remember his name, I remember what he looks like.

I remember everything about it.

Like, I will always remember that because that was the first time I felt like butterflies for a boy.

And your parents, your parents were watching you being like, oh my God.

That's a normal thing that gender heterosexual men do.

I would love to call it an ask.

No, but I, but I had that moment when I was as early as like seven or eight, but I didn't have my awakening of like, oh, I'm gay until I was probably like 11 or 12.

And so in the same way, being trans, I knew since I was very little that I wanted to be a girl and that I felt like a girl.

And I remember before I even knew what the word trans meant, I mean, this is probably when I was like eight or nine.

I remember praying that, you know, my only concept of like wishing for something was God at the time.

And so I remember praying every night that I would wake up and magically be like my sisters.

I don't know why, but I just, and at the time, I thought it was because I didn't want to like boys.

But I think later on, now I realize it was a lot of things.

But I would pray to like wake up as a girl and then I would wake up and I would feel devastated.

And I would like start every single morning like that, which is such like a clear sign of a kid experiencing gender dysphoria.

That being said, my actual trans awakening wasn't until I was 21, I want to say, 21 or 22.

It was like right at the top of the pandemic.

Which was like not that long ago.

No, this was, yeah, this was like two years ago, maybe.

And I had seen all these people talk about this show called Veneno, which is a Spanish show about a transgender icon.

It looked amazing.

It looked like really, I remember at the time it was a scene of this, you know, from the scene, you would think a little boy boy like at an altar walking down and strutting in like this Catholic garb.

I don't know.

And I thought, oh, that looks fierce.

I'll watch that.

And then I watched it.

And in the first episode, there's a scene where this young queer person who's questioning their gender talks to their trans icon and gets to ask her, you know, when did you start transitioning?

What was that like for you?

And she answers.

And then she looks to the young queer person and says, and when will you start?

And it like, I remember I had to pause it.

I was with my friend at the time and I walked to the other room and I like hyperventilated and started crying.

It was just like, I, it finally connected to me after years of questioning that I was like, if somebody asked me that question right now, I would just immediately think about how desperately I wish I could say, right now, I'm starting right now.

Like, this is the moment I'm starting.

To answer your question, my, my awakenings were definitely separate, but they they were something that I always knew about myself.

It just took quite a while to make peace with it.

Yeah.

And you say that you had those feelings when you were young about just wanting to wake up one day as a woman.

Did you, because I feel like that's, you know, not only an experience that all like a lot of trans youth share and trans people share in general, but also like, I feel like a lot of, you know, it's a blurry line between that and also like the experience of gay youth and queer youth generally of like do i want to be a woman because i i had a lot of moments where i questioned like do i want to be a woman and when i came out as gay to my mom i remember we had like a long sort of back and forth like over months where i started feeling comfortable with my femininity and i remember one time i like went to the gap and bought women's jeans because I was like, they just fit me better.

It's really not that deep this time, I promise.

And she was like, do you want to be a woman?

Oh my God, my stomach dropped.

I feel like a lot of people both in and out of the community, you know, those feelings kind of end up all being the same basket of like, am I gay?

Am I a woman?

Am I a man?

Am I non-binary?

Am I, you know, whatever.

I guess when you came out as gay originally, were you like at the time, were you like, oh, this is the reason I'm having those feelings?

It's because I'm gay.

And now those feelings should feel resolved.

And then they weren't?

Partially.

I mean, I remember when I came out as gay,

I felt such a, I didn't have an entirely positive experience coming out as gay.

I want to start by saying that, but I will say that the feeling I had after, no matter the negative or the positive attached to it, was just relief.

I was just happy to know that I was like in the thick of being out because I had thought of it for so long and it had just worn me out to think of it.

And so I remember at the time, I felt just general relief about my identity.

And so that bought me some time.

And then I was living in LA around the same time.

So I just left my hometown.

And it was really easy for me to compartmentalize my trans thoughts because I just, I gave myself every couple of chapters of my life, I'd give myself a little more freedom.

So, you know, I came out as gay.

That felt like freedom.

That meant I didn't have to think about it.

Right.

Then I started wearing makeup.

That felt like freedom.

So then I didn't have to think about it.

I started dating.

That felt like freedom.

And so I didn't have to think about it.

And truly, it felt like this sort of thing behind me, like lurking behind my shoulder.

And I was just able to kind of distract it for a really long time with other exciting things.

And then it just kind of bubbled up to a point where I, I just got, I mean, I feel like a lot of trans people have talked about this, but when the pandemic happened, I

had no distractions.

There was nothing but time for me to be home.

And genetically speaking, my like facial hair grows really fast.

And so if I don't have something to do every day, I won't necessarily shave every day, which means I was just like seeing myself as like a, a man in his 20s, which I like was deeply uncomfortable with.

And so, yeah, I think coming out definitely felt like some sort of release and felt like some sort of distraction.

But that sort of gender dysphoria always manifested again and sometimes way harsher than before.

Well, so it was like everything up till that point, coming out as gay, coming out as a gay person who is feminine or wears makeup, you know, dating men.

They were all like scratching and itch, but never like fully examining why

you were itchy in the first place, if I can extend the metaphor.

Yeah.

And also, you know, it was really challenging for me.

And this may, I don't know if it's less relatable or just interesting, but

I started going by the name Miss Benny before I realized I was trans.

I remember, I was like, oh, what a fun, quirky artist name.

Yeah, and it's, it's funny.

Like, this was sort of a through line through my whole like queer adolescence where I started wearing makeup when I was like 14 or 15.

I started publicly wearing makeup when I was like 15 or 16.

And I remember my dad's justification for me wearing makeup.

And I will say, my dad has come a very long way since this moment.

My dad never had an issue with the fact that I was cross-dressing.

He had more of an issue with the fact that I liked boys, right?

And his reasoning was that me wearing makeup wasn't feminine.

It was because I was like a rock star

because my dad like idolized rock stars in the 80s.

I like held on to that idea for a long time where even to myself, I saw Miss Benny as like a persona, as if I was like a drag queen.

Like this is like something I put on and then I take it off and I go home.

I used to say that when I put on makeup, I wasn't trying to feminize.

I was trying to decorate what I naturally had.

Which was very much us doing the angel and the devil.

You were like, I'm going to use one brown eyeshadow to decorate my face as it is.

We're like a little bit of pencil.

Right.

A wink of chapstick and that's it.

Just a little flourish.

Yeah.

And so it wasn't until the pandemic hit that I realized like, oh, I'm not visible at all.

I'm off of social media.

I'm not leaving my house.

And yet I still want to be Miss Benny.

I still need an, I need an outlet to do that.

And so that's when it became more apparent to me that this wasn't something that I was cultivating as a creative output.

It was something I was cultivating as like a euphoric state of being.

And that was really strange for me because I had spent years sort of making peace with just being like a feminine gay guy.

And I was also like, I was kind of like a successful gay guy.

Like, and I mean that in the way of my goals at the time were to be like validated sexually and validated romantically and validated socially.

And I was like, really good at that.

And so I was like, oh, I must not be trans because I love being like a hot, young little gay twink.

Right.

Which you were.

Which I was.

She killed it.

Which you were.

We ate it up.

I was probably messy on that trip in New York with you.

And we don't have to talk about all that, but she was in an era.

And

to the point that even like when I knew post-Veneno, like after I realized I was trans, I was still like flaunting a mustache occasionally because it made me feel more valuable as a gay man.

And I like couldn't let that go.

I mean, in the trans community, people call that sort of like a denial beard.

I had a denial mustache that I was like, I remember the denial mustache well.

Yeah, it was hot.

I loved it.

But I was like, oh, I don't want to look like this.

I want men.

I want to be around men that look like this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and like confusing the validation and enjoying the validation that you were getting as a gay man with like enjoying being a gay man.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I feel like a lot of trans people feel this is my relationships leading up to me realizing I was trans were like pendulum swings where the first boy that I, not first, but one of my first significant relationships, he did not want to touch me when I had makeup on.

He would say that he was like, Oh, I'm fine with you wearing makeup when we go out, but I don't want to kiss you until the lipstick is off.

Like, that was his sort of attitude.

And I remember thinking that was fine.

And then later, I was like, Oh no, he was deeply uncomfortable with femininity,

internalized homophobia, all of that fun stuff.

And then my next boyfriend, I like overcompensated, and he like loved when I had makeup on, like, was very into the makeup because he saw it as like subversive and like punk and kinky.

And, like,

oh, totally.

Yeah, I've been with guys.

Oh, I'm sure with your acrylic

I'm sure I mean the men men love the nails let me tell you the ones who love it they love it men love the nails they can't stop eating it up yeah I mean we're we're gonna get into this but I just want to say like when it comes to

the nails there are a lot of gay men and and yeah we're gonna get into you know dating and hookups as trans girls as gender non-conforming people as feminine gay men we're we're gonna get there and and dive into it But I will say just about the nails, it is true that a lot of gay men are turned off by like any sign of femininity, but there's also a lot of them and a good section within this population that's ashamed of it that like really love the feminine stuff, whether you're trans, whether you're like a femme boy.

I'm a bus, right?

They like totally get off on it.

And I've had experiences where I've just been like, not at all ready for like nails to be fetishized in bed.

And yet there there we are, you know, taking our clothes off.

And like, men will be like, Can you twist my nipples with your acrylic?

And I was like, We didn't discuss this.

Yeah, it's the nail visual.

It's it's tough.

I mean, navigate, I'm sure it's so funny.

Like, the crossover between trans women and like femme gay men is so interesting because there is a navigation you have to go through of how much attraction to my femininity is too much

and how much is like suddenly not good.

I mean, I remember there was like an early trans like sexual experience I had where this guy who I was like, oh, he likes that I'm feminine.

He likes that I'm like a trans girl because this is when I was like living as trans but not out.

He said something that like immediately made me realize, oh, there is a balance to be had here, which is

was we kissed and he was like, oh, I love how like feminine you are, but I feel your stubble.

He was like, I love that I can like feel this.

It's like soft and then rough.

And I was like, ooh,

that bites in a different way.

Like there, that was like, that means that you like, you see this as like some sort of perverted, like

twist.

Like, I don't know.

It made me realize like, okay, like there are going to be men that like eat you up, but that does not mean you have to serve them a plate.

You know what I mean?

Absolutely.

When I first got to New York when I was in college, I was a total grinder addict.

Yeah.

Because it was like, I felt like a kid in a candy shop.

I just like couldn't stop.

Gay twink, like moving to a big city and like gay

access to the apps.

Yeah, that's, we all have to go through it.

It's a canon event, as TikTokers say.

Absolutely.

I was, I was not special in that, but I did, you know, in my time on that app, which was extensive, I played around a lot with the way that I advertised myself

as far as, you know, my, my, the picture that I used on my grinder profile.

And I, you know, when I would have like my, I was so skinny then.

And when I would do like my little like skinny 110 pound boy abs

with no nails and no nothing, um,

you know, I would get messages and they were pretty like run of the mill grinder messages.

And then sometimes I would change it to a picture in my full beat, like expecting not to get any messages.

And they were definitely fewer.

Yeah.

But the ones that I did get were people being like, hi, hi, and be like, hi.

And they're like, are you wearing panties to match that eyeshadow?

And I was like, wait, what?

Yeah.

It's like the second, the second you start expressing yourself in a feminine way, people definitely consume it as a fetish all the time.

Yeah.

And I will say, like, as someone who was like scraping the bottom of the barrel for validation at that time, I was like, no, but I can if you want.

You know, it's you would eat it up too for a check.

Let me tell you.

I was an employee.

yeah i basically at that time i remember i did the same thing as you i mean i was doing the same thing as you even while i was living as a trans woman but closeted like i was operating kind of both fields because i was like this is probably the last time i'm going to get to use this marketing so i should i should soak it up at least while i have it and the thing that i always thought was so interesting is when i was presenting as a boy i feel like i'd get like a hundred messages but it was all people being like hey like i might be interested in showing up for you and then when i would post out as like feminine or as a trans woman, I'd get maybe 10 messages, but they'd be people who were like, I will die for you.

I will do anything for you.

Literally ravenous.

And like, that's not necessarily a positive.

No.

But it was interesting because I realized like, oh, like, first of all, great validation that there are people out there who will be attracted to me.

Also scary to think that you then have to vet.

I mean, what I'm going through right now, that's honestly so scary.

And I have like further empathy for women that I have always had empathy for is like, I'm realizing that I love gay boys, but gay boys don't necessarily love me anymore.

You know what I mean?

Like, you're gay.

I totally get it.

But that means now my pool of boys is like the bisexuals, pansexuals who, like, by the way, if there's any listening, ahala, I'm right here.

I'm happy.

That also means that like now one of my target demographics is like straight men, which I know nothing about.

Right.

And who are notoriously awful.

Right.

So it's like I'm suddenly realizing that this, I mean, I've, as every gay boy has been through, I'm sure, like, I've had to ally through so many of my straight female friends'

horrible experiences with men.

And then suddenly I'm like, oh, I'm getting this validation of my gender, which is like these straight men are like, no, yeah,

no questions asked.

I think you're attractive.

And I'm like, oh my God.

But then it's also like, oh, God.

Anyway, that's just me mourning the loss of gay boys and my DMs.

It's okay.

Now they're like, instead of being like, hey, they're like, hey,

I'm like, hey,

I love you, queen.

And you're like, they're like, can you be my drag bomb?

And I'm like, can you kiss me?

Like,

I'm like, how dare you ask me about what extensions I'm wearing?

Come extend a hug, please.

One of the things, so in Glamorous, which is your new series on Netflix,

say it again.

Which is just truly fucking fantastic.

You play a kind of gender non-conforming early 20s gay boy named Marco, who in the end, we discover is perhaps questioning whether he's a gay boy at all.

But he, we kind of follow his like trials and tribulations of.

Some of the things that we've been talking about as far as early adulthood, you know, sexual and romantic experiences and firsts, which for queer people like usually don't happen in high school.

Like that stuff usually does start happening in, you know, college or in your early 20s.

And I remember one scene where Marco first meets Parker, who's his kind of like masculine, hot finance pro fling on and off boyfriend situation.

They go to Parker's apartment and they like hop in bed for like what is presumably their first time having sex.

And you see Marco's high heel just like kick up,

which was just like, I know that's a very specific visual reference, but I was watching the show and I saw this like feminine gay kid with the high heel, you know, running off to bed with this other gay guy who is wildly attracted to him.

And I was just like, I wish I had seen that when I was 18 and when I first moved to a city and when I was first on Grindr, because at the same time, and I think people might be able to relate to this, especially the young gay boys and other queer people or non-binary, gender, non-conforming, whatever.

At the time that I was coming into myself as a queer person who wanted to wear makeup, who wanted to explore my femininity, I was also coming into myself as like a person with Grinder.

Right.

Those two experiences did not feel like they could happen in the same universe because gay men can be really shitty about femininity.

Yeah.

And it's

internalized.

Like it's kind of taught.

And I mean, if demonizing femininity is taught to men in general, especially within themselves, but it's always interesting to me because it

typically comes from a place of self shame.

I find that a lot of the times, I mean, I don't know if you relate to this at all as like a very flamboyant person, but what are you talking about?

Sorry, I didn't mean to out you to everybody in the world

on the A Bit Fruity podcast.

You're like, just a bit, not that much.

Or maybe you're saying you're fruity as a bit, like it's a joke, right?

There's lots to be dissected with that title, but no, I was like, kind of like at the front lines in the trenches as like a feminine person.

And so a lot of the gay people who were closeted around me, it was really easy for them to take out frustration on me.

And within the show, I mean, something that we see with Marco's sort of love triangle is like this person, Parker, is very attracted to Marco and like very much wants to be with Marco, but also like has this ingrained idea of like, I can't, I think the phrase he uses in the show is like, draw attention or like turn heads.

He's ashamed.

Yeah, this is ashamed.

And it's unfortunate because I find that like a lot of gay men love things that are feminine and like a lot of I mean think about when we think of the phrase gay icon a lot of the time we think of like straight pop stars, but women.

Yeah.

Because we love femininity.

We love to see it.

We like to see drag queens.

We love it because it feels free in some way.

But this idea of being like a gay man who loves men is like totally.

It's sad, I think.

And I don't think there's anything wrong necessarily with being attracted to masculinity, but when your attraction to masculinity comes at the cost of shaming femininity, that's when I'm like, you know.

And I think that a lot of times people, you know, not to get too like campus SJW, but I feel like a lot of times gay men's attraction to things that are only masculine to men that are only masculine, like, even if they're not going out and being like, fuck them guys, you know, I hate them guys.

Like, I think it is worth being examined.

You know, I think it's worth being introspected because it's so funny.

You You know, I meet these like masculine, muscular gay men who the second you do a shot with them at a party, they're like, okay, who brought the wigs?

They love a wig.

These mask for mask boys love a wig.

They love a kitten heel if they're feeling crazy.

Uh-huh.

A performance shoe.

A performance shoe, a sensible three inches.

But, you know, it's like, I wish, I like want for my gay men, my brothers.

I want want them out of the trenches.

Like I want to free them from feeling like at the end of the day, they have to be in a relationship that like is, is heterosexual and heteronormative in every way, except for the fact that it's two men.

Yeah, something that I'm like, I'm really passionate about this talking point because it's affected me for so many years.

And I didn't think that it would manifest with glamorous as much as it has, but I feel that a lot of the time, masculine gay men, who might genuinely just be masculine gay men, which is fine.

It may not be performative at all.

Which is fine.

If you want to finish listening to this podcast and go like chop wood.

Yeah.

We're not here to stop you.

If you're wearing like a little tank top and cargo pants, like that, I love that.

We feature that.

But the thing for me is with Glamorous, when it came out, when the trailer came out, when the first photos came out, I remember the number one group of people that were homophobic about it were not straight people.

It was not the Fox News crowd.

It was gay men.

And a lot of the time, it was gay men saying some sort of claim of, I'm sick of being represented as a stereotype.

I'm sick of seeing stereotypes on TV of gay men.

And for me, I mean, there's so many reasons why that's frustrating.

I mean, there's so many gay characters in the show, and I'm the only one who's as flamboyant as I am.

So there are very many gay men in the show for you to not feel flamboyant and stereotypical.

But for me, it was very frustrating because I don't think Marco is stereotypical.

I think there are stereotypes about people like Marco, but for me, I've always been a feminine person.

This isn't something that I'm putting on to appease people's perception of what a gay person is.

And so it was always really frustrating for me when people are saying that because I exist, which means other gay people like me must exist, which means this isn't a stereotype.

This is just a different type of gay person.

And there's actually majority of gay representation is not stereotypical.

A lot of the times it's very straight passing and very masculine, or just not talking about the femininity within gay men.

And so I remember when my one of the first gay representation moments I ever remember seeing on TV was with Kurt on Glee.

We saw Chris Colfer.

And I remember as a kid seeing him on screen and feeling a deep connection to what he was doing because I felt like, oh, this is somebody who sounds like a woman and has super feminine tendencies and no facial hair.

Yeah, hairless.

And I just remember identifying with that so much.

But then the temperature around me of straight people and gay people was that what he was doing was annoying, annoying, offensive, a stereotype meant to make people laugh.

And so my formative gay years were like, don't be that.

Don't be that thing that brought you so much joy and you related to.

And so my frustration a lot of times with gay men and masculinity is like, I don't care that you're masculine.

I think it's great actually.

And I think sometimes masculinity in gay men is seen as like, you're just putting that on in the same way they're saying I'm putting on femininity.

But I do genuinely think there is space to be held for men who like masculinity.

The problem comes when it is because you're ashamed of femininity and being associated with femininity.

These gay men who see something like Marco or see something like Kurt and they're like, I hate that this exists because now when people think of gay people, they're going to associate me with that.

And I find that so

sad, both for people like me, but also for them that like you so desperately are hurt by this idea that you don't fit into a whatever word you want to use.

I mean, people use heteronormative, but I know that is such a buzzy word.

Yes.

You just don't fit into what you consider appropriate because of the people around you.

And you're deeply ashamed to be even a little bit associated with anything that challenges that.

And that's so sad to me.

I mean, I remember when I first encountered gay men who would say like, oh, I'm gay, but I'm not like in the scene.

They're like, I don't really go to Pride because I'm not like that kind of gay.

I remember thinking.

Yeah.

And I'm like, what scene are you not in?

Because like,

you're in it.

I know you suck dick.

Like, I know you're in it.

I was like, you are in the scene whether you want to or not.

And if you need to go process that and mourn that, absolutely go do that.

But don't meet, don't like sour our experience of it because of that.

And also, it's like, I just remember men would say that and I'd be like, and you're proud of that?

I mean, they would say it was such like an idea of like, oh, but I'm like passively fine.

And I'm like, I disagree because when it comes to time for these straight people to decide who gets to do what, they're not going to protect you.

They're not.

It kills me because it follows a lot of the same thinking I have towards, I mean, this is sort of not a new conversation, but a conversation I feel has become more gay people have just become more aware of, which is the idea of like transmedicalism or like trans people and non-binary people having issues of like what's considered trans.

And that's like a whole conversation for a whole other day.

Do you want to give like the two-sentence summary of what transmedicalism means?

Sort of.

I mean, I might botch this a little, but it's sort of the idea that if you are not medically transitioning, whether that's through hormones or surgery, that you are not under the trans umbrella.

And so like a lot of the argument comes from from sometimes older trans women who feel like space is being invaded by non-binary people who call themselves trans non-binary.

Extremely nuanced issue with amazing things to be said and talked about that completely gets lost through Instagram, I find.

But the thing that I particularly am always frustrated about is when the, and I feel this way about this sort of log cabin gays, but it's this idea that there is some sort of acceptable or appeasing idea of what it means to be a gay person, a lesbian, a bisexual person, a trans person, whatever.

There's this version of that that is like, oh, if I'm that and I'm good, then no one's gonna, I'm not gonna face any sort of prejudice or opposition.

They're not gonna come for me.

Right.

The problem is that conservative people do not differentiate.

No.

If you are a straight man wearing nail polish and pearls, they will associate you with us.

And so to me, it's so frustrating because I'm like, yes, as a community, we should be able to have conversations and not have it it feel like all or nothing.

Like we should be able to kind of disagree for a minute while we find a way to agree.

But what's frustrating is when it comes to the way that we advocate for ourselves and the way that we stand politically, it's so frustrating because I'm like, these people, the conservative people, the Republicans, do not care.

if you are a certain type of gay.

They don't understand what you mean when you say I'm not in the scene.

They don't care that you weren't at Pride.

They don't care that you don't watch drag race.

They don't care that you identify and associate as a straight woman, as a trans woman.

Like they will see you the exact same as the other queer person next to you when it comes to time to take away your rights, to take away your access to medical attention, to gender affirming things, like all of it, to housing, to your job.

I mean, all of the things that you see trans people, people who are like maybe more obviously tied to their identity, we have to advocate for ourselves.

And so it makes sense why a lot of the times queer women, queer people of color are at the front of things because they don't don't have the option.

But it's so frustrating because when it comes down to when those things get taken away, it will affect everybody.

It doesn't just affect the people that you don't like to associate with.

Yeah,

I was going through Twitter the other day and there was this video making the rounds on right-wing Twitter.

And I, you know, saw that it had thousands and thousands of comments and quote tweets and all of this stuff.

And I was like, wow, this must be.

pretty controversial.

And it was just a video of a masculine looking white cisgender gay couple in a hospital picking up the baby that they had adopted.

It wasn't even through surrogacy.

It was just the baby that they adopted.

And there were 10,000 quote tweets from people being like, this is wrong.

And this is like the collapse of society.

And so whenever I see these,

you know, and they're often white cis gay men who are like advocating for Republicans and advocating for right-wing policies because they're like, you know, if I throw the rest of my community under the bus, then I will, you know, reign superior in the end.

And I'm like, this is how they feel about you having children.

Like, just like what you were saying, these people don't differentiate.

Caitlin Jenner to these people is the exact same person as Dylan Mulvaney.

And what I don't think people like Caitlin realize is that when it comes time for gender affirming care to be stripped away from people, it will affect her as well.

Like I just get really aggravated with people who want to distance themselves from their identity.

And I get it.

It's scary being queer and having this realization that there is an entire force of people who oppose you before they even meet you or hear about you.

But at the end of the day, it's like you're trying to get brownie points that will not be recognized.

Like, they're not going to be like, we're going to start to remove all of the legal documents around gay marriage.

And actually, we're going to make it so that you can't even be publicly queer at all, because that's now a crime.

They're not going to suddenly be like, that one's good, though.

Totally.

You're still a threat to whatever sort of homeostasis that they're trying to protect in some way and i get so aggravated by that too because i feel like a lot of the time those gay people and those trans people that feel that way and advocate against themselves a lot of the uh sound bites i hear are like well i'm queer but i don't make it my identity and that's always crazy to me because i'm like it is your identity though like And also the people that you're trying to appease don't give a shit.

They don't.

How you compartmentalize it or not.

They're like, that's a faggot.

And that's it.

Yeah.

Also, it's like, listen, within a community, if I say like Hell's Kitchen gays or like Weho gays, you know who I'm talking about because we have an understanding of like, oh, that's that type of person, right?

They don't have that.

They're going to see those people the same way that they see us.

They're going to see the Brooklyn gays as the Hell's Kitchen gay.

Like they're going to see everyone as the exact same.

So it's just crazy to me.

And I'm like, I get it for the idea of when you are somebody who is, we'll use the phrase passable in this case, like a gay man who can pass as straight in some way.

Peep to judge.

I always call that person peeputer judge.

That's really funny.

And like, no hate, no specific hate to peep a judge.

But, like, yes, listen, being passable is great.

Like, be passable.

Go off, queen.

But it's, it's one of those things where it's like, if you are that, I understand the attraction of wanting to lay low.

Like, I get it.

You're scared.

There is fear there.

But someone like me, I don't have the luxury of being undercover.

I don't have the luxury of being that way.

Like I can aspire to that and get to that point, but I require gender affirming care and I require a space that I don't feel like my life is at stake.

And so, of course, my identity is going to be more, my outward identity is going to be more about how I identify, but that's because I have no choice.

I'm leading every conversation with someone perceiving me already.

So I don't know.

I used to feel really gentle about it.

And I was like, well, I get it.

And like, well, and now I'm just, I'm tired.

I'm angry.

Like, I, I can't believe there are straight people that feel such strong hate, hatred for queer people, specifically queer kids.

Yet, like, let alone queer people who feel that way.

Like, that is mind-blowing to me.

But I feel like my understanding of politics and debate.

when I was a kid at least was that a lot of the issues made sense to me as like, oh, right, when you're talking about things about like development and city structures and taxes and like those kind of issues, it makes sense that people would have differing opinions.

Like, so you debate and maybe you disagree, and maybe that's fine, right?

It's crazy now because it's like, it's a lot harder for me to be gentle about it when the talking points are like, huh, should we strip away health care?

Not just healthcare, but the legal right to even consume healthcare from adults who have been on it for years and cannot get off of it without suffering health consequences, like when that becomes the discussion, it is harder to be gentle about it for me because it does not affect somebody at all to me.

I mean, whether or not I take my hormones every week has nothing to do with anything somebody in Texas is doing.

I mean, it really has no impact.

I listen, if somebody in public is transphobic and decides not to respect my pronouns, not to respect anything that I've asked for, as much as that's upsetting, that's their choice.

If they want to say that sort of thing, fine, whatever.

But to then step further and to try to take away my ability to do what I'm doing is where I get like, okay, you're not being gentle about this.

So like, why am I trying to take this high road when it's like, you're stepping onto my road?

Like, I don't care.

And for me, it's tough because like growing up, I mean, my family, like super involved in the church, the most involved in the church you could be.

And so I have always had a soft spot for like specifically conservative Christians because to me, I saw that as like the people I grew up with.

And some of them still identify that way.

And so I've always had this sort of devil's advocate approach to like, well, well, well.

And now I'm just getting angry because there's nothing I've ever done with my career or with my life, with my politics that has ever tried to remove the ability for somebody to withhold, practice, and publicly display their religious faith.

or their religious practices.

I don't want that for me.

I don't want to convert people.

I like, I don't care.

I want you to be able to enter a conversation and say, hey, I'm going to pray before I eat or I'm going to, you know, make a decision based off of this.

I might not agree with it, but I want you to be able to do it.

What's then frustrating is that when I want to do my thing and I want to be able to talk about it at dinner, then it's like, well, I have to stop that.

Like that's where I get frustrated because I want to take this sort of high road of like, no, I can be respectful of your feelings and your desires and what makes your life feel purposeful, but you're not allowing me to do that.

In fact, you're not just not allowing it, you are actively trying to stop me from doing it and punish me for doing it, which is where I get, you know, a little less gentle.

Right.

I feel like I've,

I feel like over the last year or two, I've been pushed further left, and I'll admit that.

Yeah.

Only because of my frustration with people in like the center, you know, centrists.

Yeah.

Who this is like one of the political ideologies I've kind of like lost my patience with more than any other, which is people who stand in the center kind of opinionless.

And the question is like, should transgender people have human rights?

And then like, you know, we're over here being like, yeah.

And then people across the aisle are like, no.

And then the person in the center who like to me, just in my head, becomes the most annoying person of them all is like, well, that's great.

Let's all hold hands.

And I'm like, fuck you, you know?

Right.

There's something to be addressed here that that we like can't not talk about.

Totally.

I was, I was at a party, you know, about a month ago and oh God, there was this straight guy, wealthy, straight guy.

I'm so sorry.

There was this wealthy cisgender straight guy.

And there were other wealthy, by the way, I don't want anyone to ever think that I'm like so bogged up in identity politics that like I hate all cisgender straight men.

Like I think some of them are lovely, but this one happened to be an idiot.

And if they're single and bored and progressive in their way that they think, please slide into my DS.

Yeah, exactly.

We have a, we have, we have a fresh woman for you.

I'm advocating for the straight men who are trying to make a change.

Yeah.

Because I'm trying to make a change too, right here in my heart.

They need advocates.

Someone has to do it.

But I was at this party and, you know, we're all having drinks and whatever.

And this guy, you know, we kind of started talking about politics in a small group.

And this guy,

who was British too, so the accent made it sound even kind of a little more like pompous.

Sorry to the Brits, but he was kind of going on about like, you know, I just think the biggest problem nowadays is that we don't really sit down and listen to each other.

And I was like, I don't think that's the biggest problem personally.

Like, I don't, I mean, I'm seated to listen.

Somebody else is still standing.

You know, like trigger warning about like, self-harm and

suicide, but like, I think actually arguably a bigger problem than like us not being all able to sit around a dinner table are like transgender kids in texas who are like committing suicide when they're 14.

yeah like i don't know i feel like that's a bigger problem than like the fact that we all can't like sing kumbaya together yeah and the problem is like the hypocrisy and and somebody wanting to be so vocal politically about protecting children and then like when there is a child who is threatening to hurt themselves or displaying behavior of hurting themselves it's like well, we didn't mean that kind of children.

Right, exactly.

Like what, what, which children specifically, like tell me, you know?

Well, and I will say, like,

it's such a weird thing to talk about because trans people and kids in general are like such a,

it's crazy that you can't use those phrases in the same sentence without people getting like about it.

I think about the position that sometimes queer adults are put into where they have to help children who are not in a safe space to be queer.

And I think there's this idea from conservative people that like gay people are preying upon these young kids who are escaping home, right?

And they're like trying to influence them some way.

And I just can't understand the logic behind that because for me, I mean, I moved away from home when I was 14.

And I didn't move away because there was a queer person telling me that something was cooler on the other side or there was greener grass over there.

It was because the people that I had who were supposed to take care of me did not.

And so I think because I was queer, they did not.

And so I think about the fact that queer people don't want to take care of children.

They don't want to protect your children.

They want nothing to do with your children.

But when you are harming your own child, pushing your own child away from safety, that child is going to look for shelter.

And I just think that that's the position that queer people have to take in that instance.

And it's an it's an obligatory mentorship that like queer people do not want to partake in.

I mean, I have no interest in being a role model and being like helpful to young queer people in that way.

Like that's that's not something I naturally feel drawn to, but it's a position that I've had to fall into in the past.

And I'm grateful to have been impactful for somebody, specifically somebody going through pushback or homophobia, transphobia, whatever.

But I don't aspire to that.

There are people who are social workers and work with children who like have dedicated their lives to that.

I don't want to have to do that.

But when I have a queer kid in my DMs who's saying they're on the verge of doing a very harmful thing to themselves because of the adults around them who are not taking care of them,

you have now forced queer people to care about children in a way that they're not trying to.

It's like that meme,

more of like a political cartoon where it's, there's like a kid and two adults on either side of him and the one that's labeled conservative Christian parent like pushes the kid.

And then the queer adult like catches them before they fall.

And then the conservatives one is like, how are you?

How dare you groom my child?

Right.

And it's like you push them out of the nest.

Yeah.

It was like your kid, if your kid was feeling safe to express their queerness at home, they would not have to look for people like me.

They would not have to find a community.

I mean, I think about the whole concept of queer people.

I mean, it's such a classic trope of like a small town queer person moving to a big city, but it's, I wouldn't have been attracted to Los Angeles if it wasn't for the fact that I just knew Texas was not for me.

I knew my hometown was not going to be for me and I needed to move somewhere queer at something to survive.

And I was, you know, 12, 13 coming to that conclusion and 14 making that decision.

And so I just, I don't know, it's so confusing to me and hypocritical because there's such this push of protecting kids.

And I'm like, no one protected me in that situation.

In fact, the fact that I was queer was what made them put me in harm's way.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I get that's like a soapbox I find myself getting on lately because as a trans woman, I see my community and my identity being associated with being harmful to children, and that just like cannot be further from the experience of so many trans women's childhoods.

Before we wrap up, I wanted to ask: so, in Glamorous, you play Marco, who is, as I said, he's early 20s, kind of

confidence-confused little young gay man.

But notably, at least as portrayed in the first season, a gay man

until the end.

And you are not.

You at one point identified as such and no longer do.

And I wanted to ask about the experience of playing that role as a trans woman, watching that role as a trans woman.

So in the essay that you wrote for Time, which is also kind of your official coming out as Trans Piece,

you wrote, one day the creator of the show called to discuss Marco's character arc throughout the season.

I met him at a bar and I told him about my transition.

I knew this was different from the original plan and I felt we could include this journey in the show by having Marco transition alongside my transition in real life.

I braced myself for the worst, but instead we bonded over our love for Veneno and expressed how we both wanted to make something with that kind of importance.

We scheduled a dinner with the executive producer, and the three of us made a plan to present the idea to Netflix.

These two men changed my life the moment they heard my story and promised to protect and support me in telling it the way that I wanted to.

My question is: at what point while you were creating the show, like, did you start transitioning before you ever started filming?

Yeah, so the timeline of it is, I

got attached to the show in the beginning of 2019, and we filmed a pilot for a different network at the time.

And

that version of Marco was just gay boy who was very feminine.

Which is also how you knew yourself at the time.

Yes, that was how I identified at the time.

And at the time, that was something I was very, I don't want to say privately identifying as that, but in my career, I didn't really exhibit that because there was no opportunity for that.

And so I had sort of just made peace with like, oh, I'll probably never get to do that and express myself in that way in my career.

As a feminine gay boy.

Yeah, as a feminine gay boy.

And then the show came around and that felt really validating because I was like, oh, there's space for this.

And then the show didn't get picked up at that network, which then sent me back into like, okay, they don't like this.

This is, you know, noted.

And then the show didn't get picked up.

The, you know, some time went by.

Netflix acquired the rights to the show at the beginning of 2020 and they were interested in keeping me attached.

And of course, I was like, yeah, this is, you know, this is my one that got away.

I'll do anything to stay on the show.

And so the show got put into development and they were writing all the scripts for it.

And at the end of 2020 is when I had my trans awakening with Veneno, and I was like, okay, like, I'll figure this out.

I started socially transitioning at that time and just taking the baby steps to transition.

And then, you know, another year went by and like nothing happened with Glamorous.

So I was like, this show probably will never get made.

I just, I had made peace with like, it probably will just like fizzle.

And then one day someone will ask me about it and I'll say, oh, I don't know.

I never heard anything else.

And then

I got

a call at the beginning of 2022

that Netflix had officially ordered the show and they wanted me to come on and they were having me sign a contract to sign on to the show.

And I immediately was like filled with joy because I felt like finally this thing that I've waited for, I've worked for, like it just felt like a full circle moment.

And then that joy was immediately met with stress because I realized the character was written for a gay boy and that just like wasn't at that point.

I had been socially transitioning for a year.

I mean my hair was like super long and like all my friends knew me as a trans woman and I was like about to come out to my family like there was just so much going on.

Right.

And then I remember I got sent the 10 scripts and I read through them and they were amazing.

I mean, so much of what is in the final episodes was in those 10 scripts, but I just started to panic because I realized, you know, if this show is a success, which you obviously hope it is when you make TV, I have to play a boy for, you you know,

in contract form six years if we're, you know, successful in that way.

And so I just started to panic and I like thought about it for a month.

I was like pacing around and like, it was just like such a stressful time because everyone around me was so excited for me and I was so stressed.

And then you were like, yeah, I got enough, I got like a starring role in a Netflix TV show.

Yeah, that I filmed three years ago and like they loved me so much.

They were like, we're going to hold on to you and recast the rest of the show.

Like that was so many things are unheard of in that way.

And, and this show is like, I, I just love the script so much.

I identify with it so much.

I grew up with it and I helped so much with the development of Marco that I was like, I can't not play this.

And then, so when Jordan, the creator of the show, called me and wanted to go over, I believe what he said was like, I want to go over the character arc for the show.

I've noticed you're like,

you've been a little different.

Like, you're a little more feminine here and there.

Like, he had noticed some changes.

So he was like, if you want to include any topics about that, that'd be great.

Like, I'm here to support that, which we had done multiple times over the last two years before that with like stupid shit, like references and stuff.

And I was like, this is my in.

If I was ever going to talk about it, so I remember I went to Akbar in Silver Lake with him, and we talked about it.

And he immediately was like, whatever you need, I will rewrite.

I will support this.

Like, this is so impactful.

This is so special.

And I thought I was going to get fired

because I had lost so many opportunities for being like too gay before.

So I was like, being trans is like definitely going to ruin this.

Right.

Right.

So I was like shocked that he was down for it.

And then we had to bring it to the executive producer, Cameron Tarlow.

I was so nervous that what I would hear from either Netflix or from the producer or from the creator was this sort of gentle way of saying like, we support you.

We think you should do what's best for you.

We think that you might not be the best fit for the role anymore.

Like I was prepared for that speech.

You're visible, we see you, we love you, and you're fired.

Right.

And I also like understood where that logic would come from because, like, it is a boy character.

So, I was like, prepared for that and instead was met with so much support from the creator and the executive producer.

And so, they put together with obviously my consent and input a pitch to take to Netflix to have the 10th episode changed.

to include a transition storyline and also to like allow me to step in with Jordan and rewrite some of the earlier episodes to make it make sense.

Yeah.

And so they came back, and their only

negative thing when I got the call that they had approved it was they were like, We love this.

We want Miss Benny to feel safe.

So if Miss Benny wants to do this, like we'll, we will absolutely happily support the story and stand by it.

Our only concern is, will her voice change while filming?

Which was like such a

it.

Well, no, because like, here's the funny thing, it was such like a

grounding moment of like, right, like cis people don't understand how hormones work.

Like, they don't understand.

I mean, here I am, like, I clearly don't understand how hormones work.

For trans women post-puberty, like hormones do nothing to your vocal cords.

So, like, that's all through just training and vocal lessons.

But it was just so funny because, like, their understanding of it was so little and their support was so big that their only concern was that I would be so good at being trans that I would just start passing by the end of the season.

Like, and that is so, that was so validating to me of like, oh, I thought I was going to get fired.

Yeah.

And instead, they were like so ready to support me, even if that meant they didn't know.

They were just like, you just can't be like a cis woman by the time we finished filming.

Yeah, they were like, the audience needs to know.

And of course, like, I will say, like, I showed up to film kind of looking like how I look now.

like i had longer hair i was super feminine and there was a long development process of like how to de-trans marco a little to make it make sense that it was a journey marco was going on was it hard just for filming purposes and creating the show to visually go back to like boy mode yeah i mean sort of detransitioning for the show was very uh dysphoric.

I remember when I, I mean, and I want to say this was never dysphoric because of Netflix.

They would have put me on camera had I looked like this or not, you know, they were just creatively working with me on how to make it make sense for the audience.

And so we had like two weeks of camera tests where we cut my hair like shorter and shorter lengths.

And at each step, they were like, we'll only go.

If you at any point are like, this is too short, then we'll stop.

I think at one point they even made a wig of like a short cut so that I could do that before I cut it.

And then if we hate it, we don't have to even try it, which I don't believe we, yeah, we didn't end up cutting it that short.

So it was great, but it was dysphoric.

But the sound bite that I gave them and what I've said maybe once before publicly is like, I played the role of a gay boy for 23 years up to that point.

I can do it again for six more months, especially when I know the end result is going to be a sort of time-stamped journey of transitioning.

I also knew that like, for me, I had so much fear about the initial steps of transitioning, the initial moment of transitioning.

And that's because I hadn't really seen it very much.

And so I knew that if I was feeling this fear and this worry, that means that somebody else at the beginning of their transition is feeling that way.

So if I can time stamp that in an authentic way that'll live on forever, then it has impact.

And then it feels like I'm using some of that dysphoria in a creative way that it feels cathartic.

And I will say, like, I've...

I've held this opinion for a while, but watching Veneno was the first time it made sense.

Then doing it on Glamorous was the second time it made sense.

But there's this conversation around who can play a trans character on TV or in movies and if cis people should be able to do it, whatever.

That's a very, again, nuanced issue to talk about.

But an interesting point I want to bring is that the process that you would put a cis actor through to transition or play a trans person is the exact same, just like visually, as to make a trans person play themselves pre-transition.

Where I think about, you you know, if you were to put Jared Leto

or Eddie Redmain into a trans woman's character, you're going to have to feminize them and you're going to have to, you know, visually transform them with prosthetics and makeup and hair and wigs and whatever.

To do that process for a trans person is the exact same.

I mean, if you have your breasts, you're going to have to bind them.

If you have, you know, very feminine features, you're going to have to masculinize them.

Like the process is the same.

The difference is that the person who's portraying that character has a better understanding of dysphoria, has a better understanding of what that feels like.

You're getting like a more grounded portrayal.

And also like on a community level, it helps eradicate this idea that transness is costume.

Because then when Marco

or any other trans character reaches their transition, That's not the prosthetic part and that's not the costume effects part.

That's actually the like human part.

And Veneno did that really beautifully with the lead character where she is a trans woman who, for the first episode, detransitioned to portray herself.

And it just made so much sense to me that I was like, oh, this is the solution that people are looking for.

Like, you can tell a trans story and show the pre-transition that you want to show.

You would just do the same exact thing, but the opposite, if that makes sense.

No, it does make total sense.

To answer your question, I mean, it was dysphoric, it was weird, it was comfortable at times, but I knew it was for a character.

I knew that it was creatively fulfilling, and I knew that I was protected.

I mean, I was never misgendered as a man in filming it.

There was a very clear understanding on the set with the crew, with the producers, with the cast that Miss Benny is not he, him.

The character right now is.

So, when you're referring to Marco and when I'm like acting, like obviously use he, him pronouns.

But

once we're talking about me, then it would change.

And so that was really sweet.

And I was closeted as a trans woman at the time.

So Netflix was even really considered about how we shot the trans scenes at the end.

As far as privacy.

Yeah, for my privacy, because, you know, I don't know where those pages get sent.

And I didn't want, I don't know, I wanted the coming out moment for me to feel very much something I had control over.

And so they let me sort of dictate how that went.

And so on those shooting days, everybody on the crew and on the cast got sent sort of like a redacted version of the script that didn't have the trans ending.

And the only people that had the trans ending was the director, me, and the writers.

And it was a closed set.

The pages were never digital.

They were always just in person.

And so like a lot of people didn't even know that we shot that for the show because they were really great about keeping it sort of protected for me.

I will wrap all that up by saying like, as an actor who's been acting for a while as a queer person, the experience I had making Glamorous and the way that I felt protected and taken care of did not exist even five years ago.

And so that was all so healing for me and so impactful for me because we tried to make this show five years ago and we were told it wasn't time and it was really painful in that moment.

And so the fact that things have changed so much that I could show a transition storyline on TV and have it not only be allowed, but also like celebrated was really special.

Yeah.

And we're all grateful to be the beneficiaries of the fact that it that it did end up happening.

And

I'm so proud of you.

And from

my sixth story walkup with mice and dust and grime to

the television in my new apartment, I am just so proud and happy to see you shine, not only as an actor, but also as the woman that you are.

Well, thank you.

Before we wrap, you're early in your transition.

There are so many people who are right now in this moment, especially as, you know, or not even just their transition gender-wise, but also people coming out as gay, people coming out as trans, people coming out as...

non-binary, people who have come out as gay, but who are coming into themselves as, you know, feminine and gay or any number of journeys that people are taking to be themselves in their queer identity right now, while the world and the country is just

full speed ahead with homophobia and transphobia.

And you took time, you took a couple years totally away from social media and all of that before you came back

in this very...

forceful way that you are right now.

Having spent that time alone to transition to create this body of work, both professionally and, you know, as yourself, and to create yourself and to become yourself,

what would be parting words that you would give to people who are

at the beginning of their journey, who are considering coming out, who are

not sure where their future is in this country?

What keeps you going?

Well, I would say there's two things that I've tried to remind myself right now.

And I am very early in my transition, so this is definitely coming from the perspective of things I'm learning presently.

And that's, first of all, to have patience during this because,

you know, there's so much excitement about sort of finding who you are.

I mean, I remember when I was coming out as gay, I felt the same way and I threw myself into situations I didn't necessarily need to throw myself into right away.

But with transitioning, especially, I mean, you have to think about the fact that you are at the infancy and puberty of a new chapter of your life, and so it's amazing.

Every step is so validating, and every step is so euphoric, but they are steps.

And so, to be patient with yourself, I mean, I know we all want to, I still, even when I was a kid, I prayed I'd wake up as a girl, and as an adult, I pray, I wake up, and changes happen.

But you kind of have to just be patient and realize that your transition is not an end goal, it is a process.

You're actively in your transition right now.

And so patience for yourself, that applies to queer people as well in general.

Like figuring out who you are as a queer person, especially when you were not able to ever be sort of a clumsy queer kid is important because you're relearning everything.

And then the other thing I would say is really important to me has been

to be protective.

of myself and my identity, specifically my transition.

And that can mean so many different things.

That can mean be protective by being loud and like physically protecting yourself and like advocating for yourself and being very vocal and visible.

I mean, that's such a way of protecting yourself that like, I mean, Matt, you do that so well for yourself and for so many people.

And so that's a very powerful way to protect yourself.

But there are other times where I've had to do this.

I'm sure, Matt, you've had to do this, but everyone's had to do this, where you protect yourself by removing yourself from confrontation and from

visibility to sort of recharge because there are times where I feel fierce and fabulous, and like I can be at the front lines.

And there are times when I feel super defeated and I feel super low.

And sometimes my dysphoria alone will push me into those days.

I mean, on those days, it's hard to even consider showing up for myself.

So, in those moments, the form of protection comes in taking a step back.

If that's self-care self-care to you, it can mean anything.

For me, it's playing RuneScape and like not having to look at myself in a mirror for a day and like getting ice cream down the street and a hamburger because that's my new comfort meal for some reason.

I don't know why, maybe it's hormones, but for so many reasons, it's important to protect yourself.

And that can mean so many things.

And so, figure out what that means to you in each present moment and stick to it because you can't advocate for yourself if

your battery is at empty.

So, patience and protection and i'm miss binny and this has been gender

well miss benny thank you so much for joining us today where can people find you where can people support you oh goodness um people can find me all over social media at miss benny i'm on tick tock as i hate miss benny which I know I just talked about self-love.

I know that sounds contradictory, but it's a reference to like the early 2000s when websites would pop up of like, I hatejustintimberlake.com.

It's, it's loving, I promise.

But yeah, I'm on TikTok now.

I've been having a really good time over there, not stirring up anything.

And

yeah, you can watch Glamorous on Netflix right now.

It's, I'm super grateful for all of the love people have poured out on the show.

It takes a lot to get a queer show like this made.

And so anybody who's posted about the show, shared it to their friends, finished the show, watched it again, we see you, we love you, and we're so grateful for you.

And thank you so much, Matt, for having me.

I mean, it's so crazy to think we've both like blossomed in such, you know, fabulous ways.

And it's been such a joy to watch the reach and the impact that you have had.

I mean, it's just so inspiring and wild.

Well,

thank you.

And I don't like to think about it because then I'll have a panic attack.

So

I just keep making my little internet posts and I and I close my laptop after and

stare at the wall.

That's smart.

So

thank you.

thank you, thank you, everyone, for joining us today.

I hope you enjoyed it.

If you did, feel free to share it with your friend, with your mom, with your cousin who's not transphobic, but just you know, has some questions.

Maybe they'll give it a listen.

And you can follow us on whatever app you get your podcasts on.

It would mean a ton if you rate the podcast.

That helps us a ton.

It takes five seconds.

If you did not enjoy the episode, please don't rate the podcast.

And,

but, um, thank you so much.

And until next time, I love you.

Take care and stay fruity.