Dove Cameron

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by the Duchess of Duluth.
Hi there. It's me.
This was a favorite. This was a great episode.
It was an incredible episode.

One of these, I say they pop up like every 15th episode where one's so moving.

Yeah, very beautiful.

And so inspiring.

Yes.

To do this job to eternity.

Yeah.

To sit down with a stranger and like a very special, intimate exchange.

Yeah.

Lucky as hell.

It's so nice.

Dove Cameron.

By the way, when I... You know the stranger in like a very special, intimate exchange? Yeah.

Lucky as hell.

So nice.

Dove Cameron.

By the way, when I came in after this and I'm talking to the girls brushing their teeth, they don't ever care who I, you know, sat with that day.

And I said, oh, man, I had a great interview with this actor, Dove Cameron.

And they flipped out. They couldn't believe it.
She hits a lot of markets. It's kind of funny.
Anna was over watching our Sunday night shows before we recorded, and I said, oh, we're having Dove Cameron this week. And she was like, oh, my brother loves Dove Cameron.
Oh, really? And then also her mom. And the mom.
Yeah. Calvin.
And Calvin. Calvin loves Dove.
Yeah. Well, she's an Emmy award-winning actor and singer.
Descendants, Livin' Maddie, Shameless, Cloud Nine, her album Alchemical. Alchemical? Which we learn about.
I learned how to pronounce it, and I've already forgotten it. Volume 1 is already out, and she has a new single out right now, Too Much.
It's a great song, and it's really blowing up. Ooh, lovely.
As I would want for her. Yeah.
This was awesome. Yeah, and please enjoy it.
Yeah, please enjoy Dove Cameron. This message is brought to you by Apple Card.
Apple Card is a no-fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day. That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay.
Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on credit worthiness.
Rates as of January 1st, 2025. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch.
Terms and more at AppleCard.com.

We are supported by Ring.

With Ring, you can be there from anywhere.

With doorbells and cameras that help you see more to exciting features that help you know more

to the app that lets you connect more.

See more at the front door up high and down low

with battery doorbells head to toe video. Capture it all, all day and all night with 24-7 recording and get smarter alerts that know the difference between a person and a package right in the Ring app.
Now, I relied on these ring photos quite a bit for our... Unfortunate violation.

Yes, it was so good to have... right in the Ring app.
Now, I relied on these Ring photos quite a bit for our... Unfortunate violation.

Yes, it was so good to have all that footage.

It just brings peace of mind

to know you can check at any time.

Yes.

With Ring, you can check in

and be there from anywhere.

Some features require a subscription

and are available only on select Ring devices.

Exclusions apply.

Learn more at ring.com. What are bloomers, guys? I know a bloomer.
I know a bloomer. I'm all about a bloomer.
They originated in cheerleading. Some of them can be late.
Some of them can be early. Yeah.
Wait. Oh, that's a funny joke.
Oh, late bloomer, early bloomer. That's like something that would be on Connections.
Yes. Do you play Connections? I hate that I don't know what that is.
It's a Nework times puzzle and it has 16 words and you have to put those words into four groups so they're associated it's increasing hardness yeah okay you would get the first four you go oh day that's easy but then it gets hard and then it gets horrid horrid it gets extremely horrid what's happening with your teeth i'm already already jealous. My tooth gems? Yes.
Oh, that's cool. You're very cool.
I've been circling. I want a gold tooth cap.
I have a girlfriend who has a gold tooth cap, and it is so cute. Can you connect me with her gold capist? Absolutely.
Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
I can't believe I'm already making connection. Oh my God.

Wow.

I have a question because I'm just first time sitting in this.

Is there a way to angle the camera

so I'm not flashing everybody?

Oh, that's a great, right?

Okay, gorgeous.

I love it

because there's so many cameras

that I don't know what you're catching.

And I always just like to like mission statement.

I don't desire to have my-

To show my ass.

My ass cheeks on your show. I don't desire or aspire to have my ass out.
It would be so annoying if we did film this whole thing and then we were like, uh-oh. I've been on TV for so long.
You got to ask these things because someone's going to be like, oh, your ass was out the whole time. And no one thought to tell me.
No one thought to tell me. gotten brattier over the years more protective of myself i've gotten brattier it happens when i do stuff with kristen they'll have blocked it where they want me on her left side and we're like no we don't do that i'm always on her right side and then monica and i do stuff too and it's like i'm so sorry but i gotta be on her right side so wait is that because it's a girl's side or your.
Yes, this side. I like one side too.
Which side? We can never be photographed together because we have the same side. Oh, or we could just like prom.
We would always do profile. We could prom it.
I just have a stronger symmetry on the right side. Like my jaw is more defined on this side.
I have a slight difference in the tip of my nose. I also think maybe this eye is like slightly bigger.
I'm sure it's an insanity. You do have a very powerful mandible like Kristen.
My jaw? Yeah, it's very powerful. Oh, I've never heard that.
You haven't? Oh my God, I'll take it. I love a powerful mandible.
Yeah, mandibles, it's essential for chewing. Yeah, I'm trying hard.
I got chin filler. Make it pop.
Yeah, try to pretend like I had a strong mandible. Beautiful thing happening where you have a very small face and huge features.
Bingo. I've been playing that out for years now.
Almost cartoonish the proportions of the eyes. Yeah, I've never heard it like that.
I like that. I was just reading something the other day about the different beauty preferences for all around the globe.
And the small face, big features is very youthful. I do read young and dove just ding, ding, ding.
Last night, we were with Rob, who you just met, his little boy, Vinny. Is Vinny a little person, Rob? He's 4% size.
4% size. He's really small.
He's so tiny. And his eyeballs are the size of ping pong balls.
And we were eating dinner with him last night. And I was like, this ratio of eyeballs to face size is the most appealing thing I've ever seen yeah if he could keep that running you should keep that to yourself he was staring at your son thinking we all were everyone at dinner was just staring at the baby the whole time and that kind of right sizes the ship because his son sexually verbally assaulted my 11 year old last night so So you were just balancing this.
I'm just

trying to balance it in her defense. He's a baby Vinny and he's talking to Lincoln.
He loves Lincoln, our daughter. Look at that little fuck.
Oh my God. Shockingly large eyes.
What a beautiful little babe. He's talking to my 11 year old and he goes, I like your hair and your body.
And I like your butt

no way

one two three

I like your hair

I like your body

I like your butt

pretty good

well you don't say that, Vinny. He said that? He's three? He didn't know what he was saying.
He has to know almost no words. And those are some of the words he knows.
He had already complimented on her earrings. And now he was just moving on to anything he could think of.
So hair, body, butt. He's like, nice knees.
You got good knees. He's so ahead of the game with those big eyes and giving compliments.
Oh, he's a killer. He's going to slay.
He's going to absolutely slay and sland it. Exactly.
I also love this crazy combo of you have a protein shake, you have a Diet Coke. I really know I'm home.
I come never anywhere with less than three beverages in my purse. Now, clearly you must be seeing the litany of ADHD messages on Instagram, like posts.
Have you noticed this like tidal wave of, I don't know if it's my algorithm or everyone's. No, no, it's everyone's.
One thing that I saw was someone saying ADHD people always have like three drinks. Really? I think it's because we're so stimulus addicted.
I realized I was a stimulus addict 10 years ago. I was little and I was like, I can't do anything unless there's many things happening at once.
Right. You know something funny? This is just a random anecdote that I have for you.
Your wife guest starred on my Disney Channel show. Oh, wow.
She came for an episode of Live and Maddie when I was itty bitty. And it was because she was friends with Andy Fickman who created Live and Maddie.
He did? We love Andy Fickman, right? Isn't he part of Reefer? That's where they met. Reefer Madness, Heather's the musical.
Yeah. And they did You Again together.
Oh, cool. He's a sweet, sweet boy.
That's my man. I too was there, not on that trip, but my best friend who's visiting right now brought

his, at the time, 11-year-old son, and he was obsessed with that show.

Living Maddie?

Yes.

And I'm like, do you have a dream thing to witness?

And he was like, Living Maddie.

So I figured out how to get us in there so he could watch.

That's so cute.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I have a little anecdotal history with you as well. I'm actually glad I didn't know that because I was such a fan of both you and Chris.
I probably would have passed out. You think so? Yeah, oh yeah.
And you can be honest, probably more of a fan of Kristen. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but genuinely a huge fan of you as well.
I was always a massive comedy girl growing up. I remember you guys have a movie together that I was really obsessed with.
Hit and Run? That opening scene when she's crying and all of that. It's so beautiful.
Thank you. Yeah, so Ina Dax wrote that.
Yes, I do. And directed it.
I remember. That's our favorite thing we've ever been a part of because it was just our movie that we paid for.
We made it because we wanted to make it and it's all my cars. Yeah, it's very special.
We just showed it to our daughters. And how old are your daughters? 10 and 11.
Perfect. Let's talk about Washington.
Okay. Because I have spent almost a decade of my life up there.
Why? My ex-girlfriend of nine years, Bree, was from Marysville, Everett, lived on the Tulalip Reservation on the Puget Sound. No way.
Yeah, in your Bainbridge, which is an island. Uh-huh.
The Pacific Northwest is so beautiful and it's full of people who are born there, raised there, never leave. And then if you're not from there, I'm always shocked that you might have a reason to go there.
It feels like a twilight zone-y area that to me does not exist outside of the people who eat, sleep, and breathe that community. You're right.
It is a very specific area. I took to it immediately because her friends were all also alcoholics, which I loved.
Probably a lot of drinking. And masculine, they might be driving a truck and maybe they work for the forestry service, but they're also liberal.
Super liberal. Yeah.
And I was like, oh, this is refreshing. You found the feminist liberal mountaineers.
Mondel Ferrara bumper sticker from the 80s on their truck still. But did you go crabbing? We went gooey duck.
What's gooey duck? What the heck is that? I still don't think in my adulthood I could explain what a gooey duck is. It's like this massive, I'm going to get it wrong, and everyone's going to be like, this is not a gooey duck.
We'll fact check it. The gooey duck community is going to be with it.
But it's this massive, long, amorphous clam thing. It's a hard shell sea animal.

Inside, there's some Eatons.

And you like boil the gooey ducks like a clammy oyster.

I never liked them.

Yeah, this sounds horrible.

It sounds disgusting.

But I remember the hunting process being super exciting and romantic.

In between kayaking, hiking, it was a very natural, North Face branded upbringing. What age did you start drinking coffee? Because I'll say this, when I was spending- What age did you start drinking? After spending time there, one knock I have on the area is you get exhausted there.
It's drizzly and dark and damp. I was like, oh duh, the coffee revolution started here.
I have my own theories about how Seattle became what it is because Seattle particularly has a huge coffee culture, huge underground music culture and huge jazz music and wine culture. My theory is the same as yours.
I think that everyone was like, it's fucking miserable outside. What can we do inside? And then you got all of these little jazz bars and these weird little underground city hubs.
Capitol Hill. Capitol Hill.
So fucking sick. And then everybody just sort of stayed inside and never came out.
And it became like this cozy little, we listen to jazz and drink wine. And everybody's like a little bit pretentious.
Depressed, pretentious, but like you're chill about it. Good mix.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I started drinking coffee at like 12. That was my hunch.
I don't think you could have made it to school if you weren't because it's just too dark and drizzly. It's just disgusting outside.
The rain used to be such a constant for me that it was like you're walking in the rain. You don't put makeup on.
You don't do your hair. You surrender to the rain.
And then I lived in L.A. for one year and I went back to Seattle.
You lose your tolerance. That's me in Michigan now.
I'm like, oh, my God, it's too cold for humans to live here. How did I ever? Yeah.
I got a second dig about Seattle. Give me the dig.
It's raining 200 days a year and no one can drive in the rain. Seattle people are going 30 miles an hour on the highway when there's a little drizzle.
It's true. But I also think it's because truly they have nowhere to be.
Yeah. Good point.
Not in a derogatory way, but in a healthy, we're living a real human life. We're living slow.
Now that I live in L.A. and New York and I'm really splitting my time, the rushing and the mania of these cities, you go back to a healthy, normal working city where it's like you go to your job, you go to the airport, you bank three hours.
So I think that that's part of it. It's less that they cannot drive in the rain and it's more that they're like, eh, fuck it.
OK, so what did mom and dad do on this island for a living? So crazy enough, they didn't work on the island. They worked as far away as they possibly could.
They had a business out of India. The country India.
Oh, wow. Jaipur and New Delhi, Jodhpur, some select parts of Mumbai.
They were importers, so they would design jewelry and certain goods. They had all of their suppliers in India, which is where all of the silver, gold, all the fine gemstones, all of the materials are in India.
And they had all of these houses and suppliers that they worked with. So they truly spent half of their year in Jaipur and New Delhi.
Oh, really? And were you going with them on these trips? Yeah, yeah. I have an older sister and she was very much in high school and they were like, you can't do your homework on the road.
And I was like, I want to be homeschooled. I want to travel.
How much older is she than you? Seven years. Oh, that's a hefty.
That's Monica and her brothers. Yeah.
They say that that's like the only child. It is.
You grew up in two different lives. You wouldn't go for six months, though, would you? No, I think the longest I went was four months.
Wow, though, that's a long time. That's hefty.
And did you love it? Did you hate it? Absolutely loved it. I feel like I've spent so many of my early brain forming amoebas connecting memories in India.
And it was so life changing. My dad was always also really big on if you ever are saving money, it's for travel.
If you ever do anything, it's for travel. It's for education.
It's for expanding the frontal lobe. It's not a rad car.
No. Like me and my dad think.
Travel is always the number one to do. And so I was really lucky because my parents were just like, she's so small.
What is she really going to fucking learn in second grade? Let's get out of here. So you did homeschool the whole time you were on that island? I was in public school, which on Baymidge Island is like 20 kids.
I did public school from kindergarten through second or third grade and no kid is happy in school. But I was really struggling.
I was starting to get a little weird and internal and my parents were like, she doesn't have peers. Were you shy? I was really self-expressed.
I was very precocious and I was too much for other kids and I really, really wanted to be friends with other kids. But I think I was not an easy fit for groups of friends.
Did you come on like a freight train? I think probably. Yeah, I can smell it.
I like it. You're like, you're a lot actually.
No, I love it. No, I've really mellowed out over the years.
But I think as a kid, I wanted to like love people and love them hard. That's also around the age where kids start to suss out who's weird.
Yes. And kids start to be like, you're doing weird things and we're not doing any of those things.
In-group, out-group, development. I was very much in the out-group.
Your level of intimacy is very uncomfortable for me at age. Yeah.
Which I was similar to, by the way. Right.
I feel like so many of us, especially in the industry, have that story. Because you're a stepdad hitting your mom.
Yeah, yeah. I was like, are you? Hellaciously traumatized.
And they were like, I just want to go home and watch Nickelodeon. I was like, I don't have Nickelodeon.
I very much like also was always hanging out with my parents' friends. And so I was trying to have real conversations when I was too little to be doing that.
Did you love being told you were old for your age? Yeah. I was one of those kids that was wearing big coats and being like, I'm just so stressed.
Honestly, I'm exhausted, like with my empty wine glass. You wanted to have been going through something.
Yeah, I wanted to be stressed so bad. I understand.
What age did they get divorced? 13 or 14. Okay, so does it correspond with you moving to Burbank? Kind of.
Wait, we got to add before you move to Burbank. You start acting at eight.
You're doing local theater in Bainbridge. And you're already on that trajectory before we go to Burbank.
Yeah, that was kind of the only place my mom could stick me. She was like, you got to channel the energy and you hate soccer.
And I was like, let's do theater. It was this tiny, sweet little community theater where they were putting on Les Mis Teen Summer.
And I was playing Little Cozette and doing Shakespeare summer camp and playing Lady Macbeth. And I was so into it.
And then, funny enough, the first gig I got was for Ryan Gosling's Halloween band. Oh, my God.
He had a Halloween band? And it is fucking incredible. Of course, that bastard.
So good. That fucking ass.
God, what a dick. He can do everything.
It's so hard to like him, but I can't resist. Something about him, I just can't resist it.
He had this crazy Halloween band called Dead Man's Bones. Okay.
Okay, Robbie. He's a dead man's bone.
First time he's ever spoken today. And it's really quite good.
I still listen to it. It's very experimental, him and his friend.
But they had this concept of having like a ghostly children's choir. Okay.
My first ever gig, I got paid like 120 bucks or something. This is why you're still in Washington.
Yeah. I played at an adults-only underground club.
Oh, wow. Because he was there.
Yeah, they came through on like a little tour, like a club tour. Oh, my God.
And they were casting locally. Whoever was managing that show had a lot on their plate.
Yes. We had 13 shows and you got to find a ghost choir in every city.
A children's ghost choir. Good luck.
He had big aspirations, but it worked out for him. And we're so proud of him.
I don't know if you know this guy. His name is Ryan Gosling.
I think it worked out fine. He's doing great.
So that was my first ever thing. And then I was just so convinced that I was going to find my people in Hollywood.
That was more the impetus. So you were kind of driving this move to Burbank.
A hundred percent. My parents wanted absolutely nothing less for me than to be in film and television.
I think it was something that they felt was kind of inevitable. And that was my sales pitch.
I was like, I'm going to do this when I turn 18 with or without you. I would really love your support.
And I would love to start before it gets much harder for me to start when all the other girls are 18. Yeah.
right, right, right. My parents split up.
My mom moved out. I lived with her in her little apartment on Bainbridge Island.
And she had just gotten her master's degree in sustainability, which was so badass to watch my mom do that. And a little ahead of the curve for her.
Oh, yeah. Very like Washington.
That was when she was talking to me about fuel efficiency. All these things that now are super common knowledge.
Glass bottles are not more sustainable than plastic bottles because of the amount of resources we have to use to ship them. All these things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was such a cool thing for her to do once she had already had her whole business that she ran with my dad.
Wouldn't they divorce the dad just keep going with the business and she just left the business? Yeah. I think he tried to keep the business going for a while.
I think it was kind of impossible to run on his own. The business ended up going very under a few years after.

So this is an incredible amount to be happening at once for dad.

If he's losing this business he's had for a very long time, that's stable.

And his wife he's had for a long time. And then now his daughter's moving down to Burbank.

Yeah, it was a truly complex transitional time in the family.

I'm going to be 30 next year.

And as someone who has retroactively studied my family dynamics ad nauseum in therapy and in my own existence in my brain and my life, I truly don't know if it could have gone any other way. They were always going to divorce.
It was not a surprise. So you felt that when you were in the dynamic, they are supposed to be together.
I think I knew that from as early as you can know that. Well, there's an interesting thing at play.
And Kristen and I have this too. It could go wrong.
It's gone well. But when you're both locked into somebody because you have a kid and you're locked into them professionally, I think that's an interesting dynamic to navigate because you're kind of like, I'm not sure how much of this I'm picking as much as now I just am locked.
We have these two commitments together and that can be hard. I think that my mom would very confidently say that they were not a love match.
It was not something that they endeavored to do was be together for as long as they were together.

And when I moved in with my mom, it was because my dad and I were having a very difficult time with a very tenuous relationship at that point.

You were 13?

13, 14. It starts getting dicey around there.

As an adult, now I can look back and be like, that was fair on my part to distance myself.

Everything was kind of falling apart at once and getting very human and very real and very adult. And my mom just kind of scooped me up and was like, we're getting the fuck out of here, kid.
My mom is the most beautiful woman on the face of the planet. And she is so astute, so intelligent, so sensitive.
And I think she was just like, and look over here. Yeah.
Did dad have some mental health stuff? Did he have depression? Very much. But it was more than that.
I'm not sure the tone of the show. We get so deep.
My dad was severely depressed, which manifested in a lot of violence, emotional, mental, physical outbursts, very kind of unsafe. And it got worse as I got older.
And especially when my sister left to go to college and I was the only kid and I was also dealing with my own transitioning into teenagehood depression. And there had also already been a really big dark streak in our family because my best friend was murdered by her own father.
Oh my God. No way.
I feel like the first eight years of my memory were pretty good. Maybe some tension with the parents.
Don't really see them kiss, but not as aware as after that murder-suicide very real thing happened when I was eight. I think it really did shift the dynamic because they were very close to our family and it just accelerated a lot of darkness in the family.
Well, if I was your mom, I was like, oh, it can go this way. I'm not going to be around for this version.
Yes. And also my mom was so young when she met my dad, they were 20 years apart.
They got pregnant and it was kind of like, okay, we're going to get married. My mom is very open about this.
I'm not saying anything that she wouldn't feel comfortable with me sharing. I have the same kind of mom.
Isn't it a blessing?

I think it's necessary.

It's a sort of a generosity

that you give to your kids

because it's really helped me

in my development.

I think it's all getting reframed.

But whereas that stuff

used to cause shame,

now I think it's more a testament

to bravery and resilience.

Like all these stories,

for me, they're empowering.

They're not shame inducing.

They're like, oh, fuck yeah,

these humans live through this.

That's rad.

I always found it strange,

this taboo around mental health

or loss or trauma

Thank you. shame inducing they're like oh fuck yeah these humans live through this that's rad i always found it strange this taboo around mental health or loss or trauma because i would mention something that i thought was singular to me in my young life and like eight hands out of 20 would go up to me like me too and i was like so we're all pretending this is a singular issue and we're keeping it to ourselves for whose benefit i know who our Who? Our neighbors? Exactly.
You know, sort of like a 1950s conservative. Who are also fucked up.
They got some shit going on next door. How much more helpful would it be if we could all? You can't keep your darkness hidden indefinitely.
It's untenable. Yeah.
So you could have that goal, but it's not even going to work. But also, I think we're already doing a disservice to ourselves by calling it a darkness.
I take back my framing of that because it's only dark in comparison to something that we've constructed. That's actually not real or attainable.
It's relative to a fantasy. Relative to this cultural dream that's never existed and is super toxic.
So I'm always very open. I just sort of have a knee jerk reaction to being like, am I being too open? Are you okay? I definitely border on overshare.
Me too. I would love to just make that selection right out of the gates.
That's totally great if that's not your jam, but there's no way I can talk about your job for two hours of dinner. I got to talk about it.
What is that? I get so burnt out if I talk about anything except for someone's real life. Yeah.
But I'll be at the airport with someone who's helping me with my baggage or something or like like a security person. I'll be like, how's your mom? Like, I've never met that person before.
And I'm like, what are you doing after this? What's your night going to look like? How did you get out of bed today? Yeah. I'm like, and where did you go to college? And who was your first love? I love it.
I love humans. I wish we could just demystify.
So when you got down to Burbank, did you get a wave of, oh, it's a little less intense here and this is nice? Yes. When I got to Burbank High, Burbank High School, I was so culture clashy at first because it was huge.
The school was bigger than the population of the place where I was from. We have a friend that graduated from there.
Yeah. We're kind of familiar with the vibe.
I love Burbank High. He was also a show choir person.
So was I. I know you're a national champion, right? My choir was.
I don't think I was, but it was so cool.

Yeah.

I fucking lived and breathed for show choir.

What makes it show choir?

I'm a Philistine.

I just know the word choir.

Show choir is you're putting on like a 20 minute traveling medley mashup dancing.

Jubilee.

Fun.

It's super sick. So there's dancing and voguing.

Costume changes. It's super full out and competitive.
Yeah. Is Burroughs the same thing? Burroughs is the same thing and we are rivals, baby.
Okay, Burroughs is where our friend went. I'm sorry, you're actually a rival of our friend.
Oh, I didn't realize I was in enemy territory. I feel I got it.
In fact, I'm going to get this. I feel unmovable being here.
I feel a little morally torn right now. It's very funny because my absolute best friend in the world, Veronica, we met because she was in the rival show choir.
Oh, fun. Because it's very glee.
This Burbank versus Burroughs is glee. It's what it's based off of.
People were getting their fucking tires slashed and shit. Wow.
Like, it was so nuts. Oh, I love this.
And also, like, so camp. We're all showing up at some weird rural California school to compete.
And then everybody's like, they smashed our fucking tires. You got to go full out on that grunge day, dude.
Like, it was so funny. You better lock in on those fucking harmonies, dude.
Show them where we come from, Burbank. But yeah, I loved it.
Did you hang at that AMC? I still hang at that fucking AMC. Yeah, it's a powerful AMC.
What is it, 30, 70? There's like a couple hundred screens there. There's a powerful magnetic field under that AMC.
I take my very Italian boyfriend and I'm like, isn't this amazing? Yeah. I'm like, this is San Fernando.
It's about as American. I always say to people who are not from here, if there is a Midwest of LA, it's Burbank.

It's very suburban.

It's a lot of trades people that live there that are crew members, they're lighters, they're gaffers.

We have the candy shop.

A Nordstrom Rack, I think.

Yeah.

A Nordstrom Rack.

That's as suburban as it gets.

A Nordstrom Rack.

I really go there when I need to like crack a line my brain.

When I need like an alignment adjust, I go back to San Fernando.

Remember who you are. Okay.

So you're going to Burbank High and then you're starting to audition.

Yeah.

Thank you. to like crack a line my brain.
When I need like an alignment adjust, I go back to San Fernando. Remember who you are.
Okay, so you're going to Burbank High and then you're starting to audition.

Yeah.

Then you get this pilot,

Bits and Pieces.

Okay, research.

And you shoot Bits and Pieces.

And then what happens

during the filming of Bits and Pieces?

Normally, as a 14-year-old,

all you get sent out on is Disney.

And I remember my first couple rounds

of going in for

Disney and all of the casting directors being like please don't send this girl in anymore she's not funny and she's actually quite dark and she's off-putting and I was like fuck you guys I came here because I wanted to do dramas yes serious acting unshaken I at that point was very not 14.

They kept being like,

she's not reading

as young as she

biologically is.

She doesn't have that sparkly thing. And the reason that my mom felt confident enough to bring me to LA was because we got really far in the process of casting for True Grit, Coen Brothers.
Oh, no kidding. We got super far randomly out of a Seattle office.
Did you get to read for them? No, but we got down to the point where we'd been going in for like three months and they were calling us with updates. It's down to you and three other girls.
It's down to you and two other girls. And so my mom was like, oh, so my kid's not out of her mind.
She might be able to do this. And so I really wanted to keep going out for film.
And there was all these really exciting things happening. And Disney, in the least ungrateful sounding way, it just was not on my bucket list.
Right. You're trying to be older.
We already like the compliment. We're mature.
Yeah. You're not trying to get on a kid show.
You're trying to be in true grip. And I also didn't have cable.
So I didn't have the Disney upbringing. I saw it at my friend's house.
I knew what it was, but the basic like bunny rabbit ears wasn't a thing in my house. And so we stopped going out for Disney.
And then my agents got this call being like, we have a Disney thing, but it's being directed by a guy who mostly does film, Andy Fickman. It's like a sort of a breaking the fourth wall thing.
It's a bunch of movie people. And the script is actually really funny.
Would you go in for it? And I loved all of Andy's previous work. She's the man.
And so I was like, yeah, fuck it. Whatever.
I'll go in. And I was reading for something else because one of the casting directors from Disney famously did not like me.
I didn't know why. I don't like how she makes me

feel. Yeah, exactly.
And I went in and I just decided to go full manic balls to the wall,

stupid schlapstick over the top comedy. And I booked it.
When you were doing that,

did it come with some discomfort? Were you like, I hate who I am being right now? Or you were like,

oh no, this is fun to be this too. I was just having so much fun because the comedies that I was raised on were all of the Monty Python and Gone with the, not Gone with the Wind.
That's a hilarious. You know what I'm talking about? What's the worst? Casa Blanca.
Like all those comedies. Godfather.
Schiller's List. Carface.
Schiller's List. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
guide and boxed warning regarding severe low blood pressure and fainting in certain settings at addyi.com slash pi or call 844-PINK-PILL. What's the greatest invention of all time? Think you got it? Well, I know what it is.
It's hands-free Skechers slip-ins. Why? Because hands-free Skechers slip-ins are the easiest, most innovative, comfortable footwear ever.
You just step in and they're on. You don't have to bend down and you don't have to touch them.
And Skechers slip-ins are for the whole family. Men, women, and kids.
In so many styles. Sneakers, casual shoes, dress shoes, boots, work footwear, even sandals.
Experience Skechers slip-ins at a Skechers store. Skechers.com slash Wond, outgrown in two weeks.
But the Nanit baby monitor? Parents use it for over four years. Because it's more than a monitor.
It's a game changer. From that first night home to toddler escape attempts, Nanit gives me eyes on my baby.
And even lets me read them a bedtime story. From anywhere, I can check in whenever.
From work to date nights with no stress, no guilt, no missing those precious little moments. Since the app tracks sleep, milestones, stores videos, and sends instant alerts, I only wake up when I need to.
That's how Nanit parents like me get 36 extra nights of sleep a year. Yes, really.
You're going to love Nanit. Trust me.
Parenthood looks different here. We have a special offer just for our listeners.
Get 20% off your first order with code BABY20. That's B-A-B-Y-2-0 at nanit.com now.
N-A-N-I-T, nanit.com. So I just used NerdWallet's card finder tool to find a better card for me.
And listeners, this is genius. All you have to do is answer a few questions and in minutes you'll get matched

with recommendations tailored to you. I'm discovering cards I didn't even know existed

and the matching was on point. The best part? No research needed.
The nerds already did that for us.

So if you, like me, want to easily find the right card for you, go to nerdwallet.com to get matched

today. Terms and conditions apply.
Credit products subject to lender approval. See nerdwallet.com for details.
The pianist. The pianist, exactly.
I'm thinking of A Mighty Wind, all of those, like Christopher Guest and Monty Python. So I knew stupid comedy better than rhythmic laugh track comedy.
And so I just went in being like, I'm going to be so crazy, stupid. And I'm going to like scream at the top of my lungs and do the most outlandish choices because either I'm going to get the role and have so much fun doing that, or they're going to be like, that was so crazy.
Never bring her back. And I was comfortable with that.
I was like, I don't want to really do Disney anyway. So we booked it it and I had so much fun and at the time it was a sort of a modern family setup a blended family I was playing the older sister who really loved fashion was bratty and didn't want to deal with her little siblings and then we had Joey and Tenzing who ended up playing the brothers and then we had another younger actress who was playing my younger sister and then we had this very pivotal scene where we're talking in the mirror during the pilot that I guess swung Disney in the direction of they'd always wanted to do a twin show, but they never tried it.
And at that point I had already done one Disney Channel original movie for them where I was like snowboarding. It was so crazy.
And they just bet on me. We went away for like nine months.
They were like, don't work. And then one day they called me and they were like, Hey, the show's picked up.
Get ready for everything in your whole life to change. Also, you're playing twins and we'll see you on Monday.
Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Is it way more work if you're playing twins or no? You're shooting every scene twice. Yeah.
Oh no. Honestly, I had fun.
I feel like everybody's waiting for me to be like, so tell me about Disney. Yeah.
Oh yeah. We had the best team.
We had Ron and John who are our showrunners. I really grew up on that set.
When I was getting my driver's license, all the showrunners and writers walked out with me.

I got picked up on the studio lot by the driver, and they showed up with signs being like,

watch out, new driver on the road, disaster.

And I was like, get, you gotta get the fuck away from me.

It was just a really lovely, safe way.

So it was huge.

Liv and Manny comes out, and it gets 5.8 million viewers.

And that's the most viewers Disney had gotten in two and a half years.

Oh, really?

I didn't know any of this.

So it's hugely successful.

I don't know any of this. Yeah, so it's hugely successful.
And you do four seasons? Yeah. What was it like to have overnight fandom from young people? I couldn't have prepared.
I also think I surprised myself by being more introverted than I anticipated, which you truly don't know until you're put into that situation. And then you're like, oh, I'm very introverted.
I didn't really learn how to navigate fan attention or public attention for many years. I used to have panic attacks.
So not to heavily shift, but to give you context at the point that Liv and Maddie was airing and I was working, my father had taken his own life. And so there was so much going on in my personal life.
That's going to affect any kid when you're 15 and that happens. It changes the course of your life.
And within the same calendar year, we were in 900 million homes that translated into all these different languages. So overwhelmed, like two of the biggest things someone could experience at one.
Yeah. And one one terrible and I'd imagine I would feel guilty enjoying the great thing because this other thing happened I just imagine tension between those two things I couldn't at 15 land in a soft spot around what happened with my father there was no way for me to wrap my head around it.
We were at his funeral on Bainbridge Island. And then a couple months later, I was at the Grove

with people asking me to sign glossies. And I didn't know how to really reconcile with that

because like the beginning of my career, I was so shrouded by this heavy cloud that it didn't hit me that I was a famous person until years later. I really was protected in the soundstage.
I would come to work every day and some days would be good and some days would be bad. And everybody was super protective of me.
And it was kind of like a volatile time in my life in general, just being a teenager, being on TV. The show the show was a great escape yeah i bet when you get there and you don't think about the fact that your dad has died for 11 hours and then you get off it was this mindfuck because you're in this world of like hi guys i'm dove cameron and da da da and you get home and it's silent and your mom is like you okay and you're like yeah i don't know am i okay and then you're in therapy and then they're like, you want to be medicated? And you're like, I don't think so.
I don't know if I can act if I'm medicated. It was this crazy teenagehood.
Were you having any guilt about being in Burbank? Yeah, it was a weird thing because to be completely honest, I tried to mend my relationship with my dad a lot. There's this thing that happens with a lot of people who are depressed where they are perpetually pushing people away.
And for the entirety of 13 and 14 and 15, I was really trying to connect with my dad. He was always a depressive person.
My mom and him met and he was like, I'm super suicidal. And she was like, okay, I'm 20.
We're going to try to get you out of this. You know? Yeah.
So it was always sort of there, but I was really just like, I miss my dad. I know something's weird.
He doesn't answer when I call. Well, the most heartbreaking part, it would seem to me, is that you at least had the fantasy at all times.

This will get repaired one day.

Yeah.

I keep trying, but one day he's going to be feeling better and I can get it repaired. Yeah.
Sorry. No.
And then they go, oh, God, yeah, I'm not going to be able to repair that. It's really sad.
Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's also like, I think about this a lot because I was so young and I have a memory of him coming to stay with us once in Burbank.
And I just remember thinking all the color had left his face and I didn't know he was drinking so heavily and all of that. and I remember being young enough like 14 he was staying on a little blow-up mattress in our living

room he wasn't looking him in the eye I thought he was mad at me. And I came to like say goodnight or lay down next to him because I was still a very young 14.
Mentally, I was mature, but I wasn't dating. I was my parents' kid and I was very insulated and very protected.
And I remember laying down next to him just for a second to be like cuddle time routine. And he didn't really move.
And I remember him being like, I think you should you should go to bed and I remember laying down next to him just for a second to be like cuddle time routine and he didn't really move and I remember him being like I think you should you should go to bed and I remember receiving that as just such a rejection that like he didn't want to and I didn't know what it was I truly thought he was angry with me for something and you know when you're a kid you blame yourself of course yeah yeah and so I was like maybe I'm behaving badly or something I didn't really get it or would just feel guilty that I'm pursuing my own life. He was always vaguely supportive, I guess.
He was worried about me more than anything. He was worried that I wasn't going to be able to survive in Hollywood.
And I knew that, but I had gone back to see him after I had lived in LA for a year. And I stayed for the summer at our family home.
I went because I wanted to spend the summer with my dad and I wanted to see him and we hadn't seen each other for so long. And I remember him doing everything he could to get me to not stay with him.
He would send me to stay with my friends. He probably didn't want you to see him, how he was existing.
Yeah, he was like a famously tight walleted man. He was always like, you get $100 for clothes every year before school.
And if you grow out of them, that's your problem. You go secondhand shopping.
He's like, if you grow, that's your fucking problem. And then the rest, like you have a sewing machine figured out.
And I was like, all right. But the summer that I stayed with him, I remember he was just giving me money to get out of the house.
And I was like, that's so bizarre. And I didn't really realize that he had already put a plan in place.
He got rid of all of the animals. He was getting rid of all of his money.
God, isn't it weird to think of someone planning for that long? Something like that? Yeah. It kind of goes against my stereotype of it overwhelming you in a moment.
Well, it might not have been as consciously planned as just like, I don't want anything. You've lost even the desire.
Yes. You've lost the desire to even care for anything or have anything.
I still go back and forth on that because I found out later that he was paying my friend's mom to get me groceries and basically was just pawning me off on another family. I internalized it for two years that he was just mad at me.
And I was constantly trying to fix our relationship and reach out and he just wasn't having it.

And so I don't think at the time I felt guilty for being in L.A. so much as even when I was on the island still, he was not really wanting to see me.
And so I was kind of like, I'm always here. I'm always wanting to connect with you.
Your side of the street was clean. And I found out also that he had attempted something really publicly.
And my mom kept that from me. And that was a big turning point in my mental health was just being like, what do I not know? And my mom was probably right to keep that from me.
But of course, when I was 14 or something, I was like, what the fuck? So I really didn't know what to think of it. The last thing he texted me was, I love you, Chloe.
And then we got a call the next day. And it was like, yeah, it's really crazy.
I honestly don't talk about it too much. Yeah, understandable.
Not because it's hard, honestly, because I do talk about it. But I talk about it with this kind of like, here are the facts.
You can disassociate a little bit. So I went into therapy for the very first time three years ago or two or whatever it was.
Oh, really? Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Weirdly, since I was in recovery for so long and I was like, well, I'm getting everything I need from there. And yeah, I can tell you my story.
I can tell anyone my story. Yeah.
It's a timeline. And then in that therapy session, as I was talking to him for the very first time, the emotions were attached to the timeline.
And they just are not generally for me. So I can relate to these moments where like, oh, okay, the emotions were attached to the timeline and they just are not generally for me.

So I can relate to these moments where like, oh, OK, the emotions are here now with the story. Yeah.
A lot of the time, trauma is very sensationalized. I'm sure you know.
Yeah. I've become very protective of that over the years because I used to be much more open about speaking about it.
I had a friend who died very publicly in the last few years. And that was when I tried to reorient a little bit my autonomy over what spaces I share that much.
Well, my therapist said to me, he's like, you know, some stuff you can keep for yourself, not because you're hiding it out of shame, but just it's yours to keep and you should keep it. Having it for you in a weird way, which was a new concept for me.
Yeah, it's sort of the opposite of what we were talking about earlier, which I was actually going to say that I think it's actually okay, not out of shame, but when we were saying sharing is important, and of course it is, but it's okay to have things that are just yours. Yeah.
It doesn't mean it's your secret. It's just yours and you can protect that if you want.
Well, that's your life is just sliding that line back and forth. And it's like, yeah, I felt comfortable with it here.

And now I feel more comfortable with it here.

And it'll probably change again. Yeah.

And it's fine.

There's not a right or wrong.

It's just, am I betraying myself?

Do I regret it later?

Right.

You did make me cry today, though,

because I was seeing the tattoo that you got.

And I have little girls.

No.

And I say that.

Same thing to them all the time. Really? Yeah.
you're gonna make me cry that's so beautiful and I was like oh my god I can't yeah if they had to tattoo that on them at some point cause something went sideways it was just heartbreaking what is the tattoo if you don't mind sharing? It says, we'll be friends forever. Which is just like the sweetest.
Oh my God. I see it too.
I'm like almost every day on the way I was going. I'm like, you know, we're going to be best friends for the rest of your life.
Yeah. Rest of my life.
Yeah. Yeah.
Unless I get a procedure, hopefully. I live for 180.
Maybe I can do it within the whole time. You to work on them that.
Yeah, I'm like, we're fucking best friends from this day to the end. Well, and that's what it should be, right? I'm so moved to hear you say that about your girls.
Because I truly was best friends with my dad. He tried his best.
There's probably equally sweet relationships, but I find it hard to believe there are. I just can't imagine.
Then you and your girls? Between a dad and daughter. Oh, dad and daughter.
I just think like, fuck. Yeah.
If moms and sons are having this, and I suppose I did have that with my mom, but just it's inconceivable that anything could be sweeter. In fact, we went to see my 11-year-old sing in her choir.
She goes to an all-girls school, so just all these little girls up there singing. And I said to my wife, I'm like, they're the best thing we've got.
Daughters. On planet Earth, like of all the bells and whistles, this is it right here.

Did you always want to be a dad?

Yeah.

Oh, I love that.

I thought I wanted boys.

Really?

I think as a guy, that's what you think.

You're like, I'm going to have a son.

I'm going to teach him how to carve a piece of wood.

I'm going to teach him how to throw a right hook.

Teach him how to do donuts in a car.

Then he's fucking good. Then he's fucking straight.
And then I let him loose onto this planet. Yeah, yeah.
But I'm so fucking grateful I didn't have boys because I actually don't want to teach him any of that shit. I want to, like, go to Taylor Swift concerts.
Butterfly clips in the beard. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's so sweet. Bait my nails and dye my hair.
Yeah, so much more fun. Okay, so back to your career.
So Livin' Maddie's enormous. But then Descendants comes along.
And that's its own juggernaut. I think Descendants was bigger than Livin' Maddie.
6.6 million viewers the first. Yeah, yeah.
I don't know why these stats are killing you. 6.6 million.
I love numbers. They don't change.
I can rely on them. So Descendants is a whole nother way.
And now there's tons of singing and you'd already been in choir. And I guess you start releasing music around Descendants time or before? No, after.
It's confusing. I did so many weird things in that time.
I had a band with my then boyfriend. It was so wild.
It had a weird name, a girl and a... Girl and a Dreamcatcher.atcher i did not name it and the band was not my idea no no the band was not my idea neither was the name and none of the music that was something that was entirely his thing and it's sort of like a fever dream i forget all the time that that ever happened so like i guess technically that was coming out around then but no i didn't sign with a label or start releasing my own shit until 2019.
It was actually after we finished filming all three because Disney had Hollywood Records that I think was with Capitol. And that's what Out of Touch, Bloodshot, Waste, and So Good are all on? No, I was never with Hollywood Records.
No, Hollywood Republic. I think they were with Republic, but I was never signed to them because actually I did a audition to be signed to the Disney label.
It was so funny because first of all, I was very nervous, but I was in like a little yellow dress and my short little blonde hair was in like pigtails and I was singing covers from a boombox. And their comment was, we already have so many blondes.
And so they didn't sign me because they had like Olivia Holtz and a few other blondes that were on the channel at the time. They were swimming in blondes.
They had their blonde quota filled. And so they didn't sign me.
And I remember being devastated. Oh, you did an Imagine Dragons song.
2013, on top of the world. That was in the pilot of Liv and Maddie.
Nothing on Disney was ever my doing. I'm sure you know that.
I think a lot of people don't. Disney would be like, this is your song you're singing this week.
And then you go in on the weekend and then you shoot on a Monday. It's done and dusted for you.
Technically, I'm on them, but they're not mine. Okay, got you.
You do The Three Descendants. At that time, now you're in two wildly successful things.
So who were you looking at that you were like, I'm grateful, but also I fucking want to be this person. What things did you want to be in? And were you like, I want to be Emma Stone? My film heroes, I loved Renee Zellweger.
I love Nicole Kidman. I loved Jessica Lange.
But then also I was hugely obsessed with like Rocky Horror and all of these things that I truly shouldn't have been watching at a young age. And I was like, that's the kind of uncomfortable, campy, weird, left of center shit I want to be making.
And honestly, still what I want to be making is kind of a page turn and I'm moving on way too quick, but I just did the show for Amazon that has got that weird little sticky, icky thing about it in the script. What show is that? Right now it's being called 56 Days, which is the same title of the book.
It's based on this bestselling novel without saying too much, because I'm sure that Amazon would have like a helicopter lands on your roof and be like, shut the fuck up.

I can't compare it to anything that I just listed because it's drastically different,

but it's got the same sort of touch of unease.

Yeah, yeah.

Do you like Severance?

I have never watched Severance.

I know I'm so in trouble for that.

It's okay, yeah.

I just need your SAG card before you leave.

Yeah.

That's all.

Fine, I'll just put it through the shredder.

Yeah, it's fine that you didn't see it, but I am going to have to get your SAG card. And Ben Stiller just texted me.
He is furious. Yeah, he is.
He is not going to work with you ever. Okay, so then we'll just race through.
You did Schmigadoon. Best.
Acting, acting, acting. I want to talk about singing now.
Okay. Because while you're starting to release music and it's getting very well received, is there any battle between which one I want more, which one I want to focus on, which one's more rewarding? You have a finite time.
And so you have to make some decisions. And where on the scales are those two things? So I had this super bullish, weird thing where I was like, film and TV is so fun and so is music.
Why doesn't everybody try to do it? And then I tried to do both at the same time. And I was like, I am going to be hospitalized.
You simply can't. I wish I could explain it because I was uneducated.
And I was like, I want to do both. And I would assume that many people think that it's very doable.
I'm here to tell you, I have tried to do both. You simply can't.
A couple of reasons. One is that film and TV is scheduled for you.
Unless you are biggest name, top 20. You can't be like, I love this film.
I would love to shoot it in London in September after my tour. That's never going to happen.
So music is really more up to you except festivals and shows. And the problem is that when you also have a large team who's doing music and film, the thing that ends up getting cannibalized is music.
It seems the most flexible, but then I'm over here being like, I wrote a fucking album and it's not going to come out till when? And it's like, yeah, but you should really do this show. And it's like, I absolutely would love to do the show.
We're also making an album. And so you can't plan at all.
Yeah, I guess we've seen people do both, but it's a spell of one, a spell of another. You don't see some of the number one movie in America and they're on tour.
Yeah. Well, and also that's the other thing is if you have a number one hit, it's not just you look at your phone and you go like, oh, it's doing well on Spotify.
You have to promote that shit all over the world. You have to be performing.
You have to be doing everything. A hit will take over your life.
I had a hit song in 2022 and it was the only thing I did. It's crazy what a hit song will do.
Yeah, I'm fascinated. Of course, we interview musicians and the economics of it are so fascinating to me that a hit equals now it's time to work and make money off this thing that you didn't make any money off of it being a hit.
Opposite of a movie, which is like, it's a hit. Great.
You got the money. Yeah.
Yeah. Who cares? My part's over.
And then the next paycheck will be bigger. But this is, oh, shit, this thing's hot.
I got to go everywhere now and perform this everywhere. You are your own sort of one man show in the sense.
Yes, you have people to do your hair and your makeup like everybody in the industry has their team. But like if you show up on a movie set, it's everybody else's job to pull off the thing.
It's your job to pull off the thing how they ask you to do it. Whereas with music, you are the director, you are the producer, like you are the little drummer boy in the front of the parade being like, go again, go again.
You are your own sort of planetary system. And I am someone who really runs everything with my music.
I have an incredible team around me, but I'm not one of those artists that's like, I trust you. I do trust my team, but I'm also like, let me hear it again.
Let me hear it through headphones. It's going to be the exact thing that's in your mind.
And I will be sitting in the studio being like, can we do a breath here? I'll go in down to the final last day and I will be working on mood boards with video directors and I will be scouting people. Well, you're the product in this domain and in a movie, the movie's the product.
Yeah. And I'm so obsessive just because I really have an idea of what I want it to be.
And that's part of the fun. My partner is always like, baby, you got to chill out.
You're going to burn out. And I'm like, yeah, but it's that extra 10% of attention that for me as an artist takes it from whatever I did my job to, oh my God, I'm so proud of this.
Is it weird? Like you won best new artist MTV video music award in 2022 and you won new artists of the year, American music awards in 2022. You've been singing for 10 years.
Is that weird? It was weird in the sense that I actually had not been doing it for that long. The music I released initially was my partner's music and Disney's music at the time, my partner.
Then the music after that, it wasn't music I was entirely writing because labels are very like, you came from Disney, you have a good following. We think you should go on this record.
And I would rewrite some of it, but not really all of it. And it would be stuff that I kind of liked.
You made it just enough of your own to do it, but it wasn't your own. You didn't feel ownership of it.
No. And I was extremely plagued by, I think this is who people want me to be.
And I had done that for so long on Disney that I was like, I know how to do that. I guess I'll do that.
And then I was enjoying it because it was new, but there was no onus. Boyfriend, the song that I wrote that went a little wild, it was the first song that I had ever written entirely top to bottom from nothing.
All of these other records that I know people have heard and fans have loved that I'm sure I will get back on Spotify one day, they were originally written by other people. And then I'd sort of changed some lyrics to fit more of my story just because I was like, I don't think I would say that.
Or I was starting to experiment with writing. And that's what a lot of artists do is they'll take records that other people have written and they'll put their own spin on it and change some things.
Not everybody has the time to take six months to sit in the studio and only do that. So there's no hate or shame in that.
That's pretty normal. And then some people, that's their whole gig, their singer songwriters, that's what they do.
I never really believed in myself enough to try to write a whole fucking song based on like a concept that I had had. And I one day was just like, maybe.
And so I went into the studio to try to start to write. And my label really didn't think anything of it.
They were like, have fun, babe. You know, like dropping me off at them all.
They were like, OK. I wrote Boyfriend pretty early on.
I think it was the first one that I wrote in that time. Or if not the first, like one of the first.
And I randomly put it up on TikTok because that's what the label is like. Everything's on TikTok.
And I woke up to a crazy record breaking. Like I had almost no TikToks up.
Literally the TikTok was live photos that I had taken of myself that I turned into video and just put together. Oh, nice.
Like it was not a good TikTok. Yeah.
And I guess singing about being bisexual or attracted to women. My sister knew all about it.
Wow. She looks at my calendar.
Oh. And she goes, oh, you're interviewing Dove today? And I said, yeah.
Are you hip to Dove? And she's like, well, yeah. I watch all the Descendants with the girls.
And then her song Boyfriend's Awesome. And she was telling me all about it.
And I'm like, oh, this is interesting. This hit her radar.
You're hitting a lot of different demos. We got those demos, which is great.
My friend's mom is very into you. Oh, really? Yeah.
In many ways. We got the moms.
So anyway, it was the first time I'd ever experienced something that I had conceptualized, brought to life. Before you, this didn't exist.
And after you, this exists. Right.
And then kind of before that, I felt like I didn't exist. And then after this thing, I felt like I finally existed in a more authentic way in the world than I ever had before.
And also coupled with this coming out of it all, which I was pretty afraid to do. I can tell you what my fear would be.
What is it? My fear would be, oh, people are going to think this is opportunistic. Oh, interesting.
No. I mean, I got some of that after I came out, but it was actually, I had made a music video for another song that I'd released called We Belong.
Wasn't a music video, it was like a visualizer because we had no money for a real music video. And there were all these faces being drawn and like embracing in cartoons.
And someone sent it back to me and I realized that it was only representing heterosexual couples. Even though they were drawings, they were very like white heterosexual couples, boldly non-inclusive.
And so I just sent a note back being like, can we get some more representation in this cartoon? Everything still remained white and outlining. It was just more varied in silhouette and men and women and then women and women, men and men and androgynous looking.
I was just like, this is weird. It doesn't really represent me.
And also it was kind of a jarring POV for me where I was like, that is so hetero and narrow. And so I put that out.
And then it was like the time when people were putting emojis to hint at what was coming. So when people were like, when's the new single coming out? And I was like, emoji, emoji.
And then like the women loving women emoji kissing. And then the song came out and it wasn't about being queer.
Right. And everybody was like, you're queerbaiting.
This is horrendous. Oh, it's queerbaiting.
Queerbaiting is when something is for the queer community and it's not quite, or you like keep it in the hetero bubble, but you you sort of give crumbs it's a marketing technique that a lot of shows have been accused of where they'll also give same-sex people a lot of tension hinting that there might be something there and then they never fully go there because they're like that's not really what it is they just want to get the queer community and sort of make money but not commit to telling the whole storyline that's queerbaiting so i had to basically go on instagram live at the time and be like, guys, I'm not queerbaiting. I'm queer.
And I just wanted more fucking representation in the fucking cartoon. And the emoji was just hinting at the music video.
I was so confused by it. It wasn't a dog whistle for the queer.
And also at that time, I never said it publicly, but all my friends, all my family, they knew I was queer. But I just hated that I had to say it.
But I did. I guess that's what I'm wondering.
When does that paradigm start or it doesn't really need to be declared? Not that I care. I'm not like someone's like, why do you got to tell me? That's not what I'm saying.
It's just like, when will it not even be interesting to anybody? We have a long way to go. Yeah, I do too.
We've made like a little bit of progress within our own internet-y liberal bubble of people who are maybe queer community adjacent. And also just like within the queer community, there's some weird discriminatory things.
Even within the queer community, people are very heavy on labels. You have to define yourself.
You have to know what it is. Also show us proof.
There's a lot of weirdness. Purity tests.
Yeah. And also just if we have that issue within the community, I think we have quite a ways to go.
Well, that's the erroneous assumption is that there would be some kind of unified harmony among a group of people because they have a single thing in common. And it's like, well, no, it's just like one element of who they are.
They're from every socioeconomic bracket. They're from every ethnicity.
They're from every type of trauma background. I had a feeling that people were going to say I wasn't queer enough, but I didn't really have an issue-guessed because I truly was like, I know who I am.
My hang-up was more, my experience in my personal life was so liberal, wonderful, beautiful, kind, protected, sweet, nurturing, supportive. And my experience of the outside world was so scary.
I was also on TV in the 2010s. We were still like, she's 110 and so she's fat.
People were being so crazy. It was tabloid time.
People were just making shit up about celebrities. I was on the tail end of all that really ugly shit.
My body type now would have been like, ooh, she's really, you know, it was a terrible time. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Well, just six years prior to you being on that show, they're asking 17-year-old Britney Spears if she's had a breast augmentation in the middle. Like a 60-year-old dude's asking her.
Or if she's still a virgin. Yeah, everyone's asking her.
It's so crazy. You're still a virgin? Yeah, but really? What about anal? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, it counts still, right? It counts. It was so bad.
And so I just hadn't really recovered from that or thought that society would be like, rock on. You're queer.
We kind of knew it. I wasn't expecting that.
Yeah. Okay.
So now you're releasing more singles. You did, I'm afraid to say it.
Is it alchemical? Oh yeah. Yeah.
That's a weird word for me. Is that a real word? Alchemy.
Oh, I know alchemy is a word, but alchemical. When something is.
I believe you, I've never heard it. No, but we should hear it.
No, I'm needing to prove this to you right now. Please do.
I'm feeling like this space is no longer safe. Educate me.
You know, the practice of alchemy when something is something that

can transmute energy, it is alchemical.

And it was volume one.

There has to be a volume two. You would think.

Yes. Logic would follow.

Painted yourself in a box

there a little bit, which is great. No, but it's kind of

contagious to have alchemical volume one.

It's like, where's alchemical volume two?

It's like in the vault, maybe. Can I make a pitch? Yeah.
Do another album. Call it alchemical Volume 1.
It's like, where's Alchemical Volume 2? It's like, in the vault, maybe?

Can I make a pitch?

Yeah.

Do another album.

Call it Alchemical Volume 3.

Some completely different name, Volume 1.

And just your thing is you call everything Volume 1.

That's so mean.

And then maybe we'll get to a Volume 2.

One day, we'll be like Volume 2.

It'll be like 40 songs.

Oh, her thing is Volume 1.

I hear it.

That's cool.

It's a good marketing.

I thought it was funny to do Alchemical Volume 1 and 3 and then just be like, where's two? That's good. You haven't heard it? It's very Taylor Swift of you.
Oh, really? You know, keeping things and then big releases. That's true.
That's true. I could learn.
I went in to write what I thought was going to be Alchemical volume two, but this crazy thing happened. I spent two years basically off the face of the earth and processing a lot of trauma.
I found my dad's baby journal and that sounds like it's nothing, but I truly had all of this storyline in my head that my dad didn't like me, didn't love me, didn't ever see me, didn't ever know me. So I had all of this unresolved shit, probably with men in general.
I went through like a horrendous breakup. Just one of those, like, if I could tell it, you'd be like, no, no.
Like it just kept getting worse. And I'm not going to talk about it, but it was something that really, truly like took me out at the knees.
I don't even know how the fuck it happened. If I'm honest, I went through two really bad long-term relationships, kind of back to back.
The first one was kind of all bad. The second one, it had its beautiful moments.
And then towards the end, it was just horrendous. And I was in this like weird situation where my friend had just passed.
So I was coming off of antidepressants and I was trapped in Canada during COVID. Couldn't leave.
No one could come see me. And then we broke up and I was like, untethered.
It was wild and all the streets were shut down and it was just the most horrendous fallout from that relationship. And so we're glossing over some things, but if I were to say those two years, sort of 2020 into 2021, I was kind of listless.
And that was when I dyed my hair came out, wrote Boyfriend. And then Boyfriend came out and then I was like kind of listless again because I was like, I don't know what I'm doing.
I don't know how to follow up this song. I didn't write anything.
It can be a burden. I was like, I don't even know how I did it the first time.
And I also won all these awards prematurely, which then I was like, guys, are you fucking sure? I'm a fraud. I got lucky and I don't know how to do this again.
So much imposter syndrome. And so then I found my dad's baby book and I basically swore off of dating anybody.
Rest of 2022 into most of 2023. And I dipped into the deepest, darkest depression.
And I just fell off the face of the planet and did a lot of internal work.

And everybody was like, you gave up your career.

You don't give a fuck.

And I was like, I can't make myself get out of bed.

Yeah.

We've got bigger fish to fry.

Yeah.

I was like, I will get to it in a year.

It kind of hit me all at once.

My best friend was like, you have never stopped working.

And I was like, yeah, but if I stop, everything's going me and then it did yeah it always does yeah and i was like fuck you veronica you were fucking right i don't know how i'm gonna get myself out of this and so i just bared down isolated myself which is not something i recommend but something i definitely did on instinct kept myself out of trouble stayed in my house and then had a lot of dark nights of the soul and just kind of dug, cleansed, dug, cleansed,

and basically purified myself in the craziest way.

And then I met my partner.

Yeah, the Italian Stallion.

The Italian Stallion.

And then I tried to write the album.

Two months after we started dating,

I wrote the first song about him.

And it was very clear that the album was going to be a massive departure from anything I was doing before. I was like, why are we trying to write a part two when I was so depressed in those songs? And this one is like a fully different book.
Why am I trying to make them be married? I can't. Right.
That's why you're going to release a new album called Volume 1. And then you'll get depressed again.
It's life. And then I'll get depressed again.
It's coming. We got it scheduled.
I'm going to be depressed probably from November to like March, I would say, so don't reach out. No, no, no.
Honestly, I don't mean to make light. But you're having tons of success with now your happy falling in love song.
I really didn't expect that. I couldn't have written this album if I had not dropped off the face of the planet and learned a little bit more about who I was as an adult and as an individual.
Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
You know, they say it's not what you say, but how you say it. And when it comes to making an impact, nothing speaks louder than your actions.
For those who lead by example, who adapt and overcome, there's a vehicle that matches your drive. The Range Rover Sport.
The Range Rover Sport is a perfect blend of power, poise, and performance. With its assertive stance and refined driving experience, it's designed to make a statement.
Want to elevate your drive, activate noise cancellation and cabin air purification for a pure, unadulterated drive. And with Terrain Response, you're ready to take on challenging landscapes with confidence.
Plus, choose from a range of powerful engines, including a plug-in hybrid option. Ready to make your mark? Explore Range Rover Sport at RangeRover.com slash US slash sport.
Imagine a place where innovation and lifestyle perfectly align. In Michigan, you can be part of our rapidly evolving automotive and clean energy industries while enjoying life to the fullest.
By day, shape the future in our thriving tech hub. By night, discover beautiful natural wonders, accessible housing, exciting nightlife, and an inclusive community that welcomes all.
Whether you're developing next-gen technology or exploring your next favorite restaurant, Michigan offers the perfect balance of work and play. Ready to make your career and life aspirations a reality? Live your best 9-to-5 and 5-to-9.
You can in Michigan. Work, play, and find inspiration? You can in Michigan.
Learn more at themichiganlife.org. That's themichiganlife.org.
When your day doesn't quit, your deodorant shouldn't either. With 48 hours of serious odor and sweat protection, Suave Men's Deodorant works as hard as you do.
Whether you're clocking in, heading out, or just trying to get through a non-stop day, Suave deodorant helps you stay dry, fresh, and focused. Suave Men's deodorant gives you more sweat-stopping power than the number one brand.
And the scents? They're clean, bold, and built to last. Ocean Charge.
Fresh and clean. Like you just stepped off the coast with crisp notes of marine and driftwood.
Active Sport. Built for the daily grind with a strong blend of bergamot and wood.
And Stress Relief. For staying calm when everything else is moving fast.
With soothing lavender and cedarwood. Suave Men's Deodorant cuts through the noise and delivers real results.
Strong protection, standout scents, and a formula you can count on. Suave Men's Deodorant.
Strong. Effective.
Under $3. Pick it up today at your local store.
In going through all the dad stuff, I mean, here's what I would hope for you. Did you come to accept, oh, no, he most definitely loved me like crazy.
And he most definitely had a lot of conditions that had nothing to do with me. Yeah, it's so funny because finding this baby book was really a pivotal thing in my human evolution timeline.
I can't overemphasize enough what it did for me. This came straight out of that excerpt, which was something I apparently said to him on the changing table when I was two, like barely verbal.
We'll be friends forever. And he was like, hold on and had to date it and time it.
And he was like, we will be friends forever. But there was so much in there that was was like today you read the first word out of your newspaper you're so smart you know like yeah stuff that I I never got from him yeah when he was alive stuff that he was too sad to tell me as I was growing up and I think just knowing that he really did see me the things that he would say about me I was so shocked were things that were still true now.
He was like, you're so intense. You're so independent.
You're so fiery. You always stand up for yourself.
You always apologize first. You always make sure everyone around you is okay.
And I was like, how do you glean this from someone who's five and under? I don't know. You must be really paying attention.
Yeah, he knew you. He saw you.
Yeah. Yeah.
And so I think like, God, I'm like fully crying. But I think there was something in that.
I'd always thought that there was something wrong with me. Of course.
And also the way that my dad really didn't love my mom very well. My mom and I were so similar.
I was like, there's something wrong. He doesn't love us.
He doesn't like us. And I really like and love him.
Yeah. And so I think it really skewed my perspective on having to be something for so many people.
I thought that I had to win love. I thought that I had to put up with dark things to be worthy, to be good enough.
Also, growing up with an unstable parent, you really start to sort of calculate and read other people's behaviors and triggers before they get triggered. And so you're walking on eggshells.
You're trying to be the perfect everything. You're trying to control the environment they're in so the bad thing doesn't set off.
And you start to do that in everything. Yeah.
You become neurotic about your surroundings. And apologetic.
Anyway, all of that is to say that when I read that actually I was entirely wrong and he couldn't wait to see who I would turn into and truly saw me. Madly in love with you.
Yeah. And in the way that I was with him, I was finally able to like put this massive rock down.
Oh, I have always been exactly who I am. I have always been seen as the person I am today and really he didn't miss anything.
Oh, that's

interesting. Yeah, that's very

sweet. If he could love me like that,

I can love me like that.

Yeah. That also I think was

really what made my life what it is now is that fucking

baby journal. So keep a journal

for your fucking kids. Well, that lets you

enter into this Italian stallion situation.

A much probably healthier

version of yourself. Oh, yeah.
What's different about an Italian? Yeah. situation, a much probably healthier version of yourself.

Oh, yeah.

What's different about an Italian?

Yeah.

Oh, that's not what I'm saying.

Don't come out.

You should have said that. I was going to say.

What were you going to say?

I was going to say what's different about him than the others.

How's he not part of the pattern?

Exactly.

Without bringing anyone else into it, my political answer, what my partner is that I have never seen firsthand is he is the most honest, beautiful, truly off the charts, intelligent, funny as fuck, kind, good hearted person.

Why did you do this to me?

Sorry, I don't know how to talk about anything else. I heard other things after this.
Both of our mascaras running. I also love this laugh like you're in pain.
You're like, ah, so crazy. It borders on maniacal.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm right there with you, baby.
Well, one thing I read that you said about him, which I thought was really neat, is there seems to be an embrace of a dual masculinity, femininity that maybe is Italian. Maybe it's just the group that you're surrounded by, but that they seem to have a great comfort in being both sides.
He's really in both of his energies, I would say. He's really masculine and feminine in all of the most beautiful ways.
I always like to say that I would have found him in any body. I truly think that he is the most beautiful soul.
He's kind of shy. And so actually I think he puts out this air of unapproachability.
Aloof. Yeah, which is really just he's introverted.
The thing that he said to me first that then I started saying because it's really true is that I was really afraid of humans at the time that I had met him. And I had really been convinced that something was wrong with me.
And I was not allowed to engage with the other humans for fear of either me inadvertently harming them or being harmed. And I was starting to get really introverted and weird.
And when I met him and when he asked me out, it was maybe only three or four weeks into dating that we were crying and doing the deep dive. And he was like, I think I really needed you to come into my life because I was starting to disappear.
That was exactly what it was for me. He's my proof that I can be here in the most beautiful way because I have the most incredible friends.
But the way that he sees me is something that I've never experienced and the way that we're best friends. And I think that's really one of the cornerstones of our relationship is just the way that we are so healthy for each other.
We really are normal human beings first. It sounds like he's giving you permission to just be you.
Oh yeah. The main difference I really can stand on is that he wants me to be as big and expressed and healthy and whole and off the rails.
Whoever I am, he wants me to be that at a 10. Very few guys are secure enough to let you be a supernova and not be afraid they're going to lose you.
And that was really my experience. He really couldn't be more of the opposite.
If I if i'm ever hiding in any way he's like what the fuck are you doing yeah he's my biggest amplifier and that to me has just been so healing also just for like my inner child we love this kind of guy we love this fucking man this guy's all right he's okay he's good he's good he's a good guy he's a bikini what the fuck is a bikini my best friend aaron and i at times talk like mafioso and we just thought what if one of the family's last name was bikini but they had to sell it it's like don't worry he's with us he's bikini he's bikini it's just funny to say the word bikini like it's just like yeah yeah like it's off this guy's fucking bikini oh oh you don't want to fucking go over there it's a whole family family of bikinis, all right? This place is full of bikinis. The whole block is fucking bikinis.
You don't even want to go over there. The guy parking your car? Bikini.
Bikini. The guy sipping your dish? Bikini.
They're everywhere. Watch your mouth.
So stupid. I want to make sure I'm plugging the right thing.
Too much. Too much.
Too much. Too much.
You said it first. Great song.
Watch the video. Great video.
Thank you. Tell me what's coming this year.
Too much is in charge right now. Yeah, too much is running the show.
It's the bell of the ball. She's the bell of the ball.
I have a new single coming out very, very soon. We're kind of vacillating between two, but I'm pretty sure I know which one I want it to be.
What month is it? March? Okay, I have a new single coming out next month. Okay, great.
And then probably just one more. And then somewhere in there, the album.
You'll do the album. We'll do the album.
Well, Dove slash Chloe. Your friends call you Chloe.
Your work associates call you Dove. Uh-oh.
Dove was her dad's nickname for her. Well, what should we call you? What did we earn today? I want to go with Dolores.
This is a hybrid. It's like Dolores.
Or Clove. Clove.
Clove. Clove is good.
Clover. Oh, shit.
Yeah, get that vape mist in the atmosphere. Get that nicotine mist all up in the atmosphere.
Use your little nice smoky scent environment. This has been really one of my faves.
This was so fun. Really? I love if I get a cry in an episode.
Me too, honestly. Once a year, I get a cry in an episode.
Once a year. I'm feeling so connected.
I'm feeling so high vibing. No, I'm the same.
Well, the father daughter stuff's a real cheap shot. So pretty high odds of getting some tears out of me.
But this was incredible. This was so nice.
Yeah, I really, really enjoyed this. You're wonderful.
You deserve everything. Thank you.
And I'm going to get your friend's gold tooth person. I'm going to get your friend's gold tooth.

The listener viewer will see me at some point in the near future with a gold tooth and we will have you to thank.

Yeah, we're going to know this is where it all started.

All right, we'll come back.

Okay, I will.

All right.

Just like tonight for dinner?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Come back.

You can just live here.

Don't even come back.

A bikini reunion.

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.
Hello. Happy fact check.
Happy fact check. You've been gone.
We recorded on Thursday. Yeah.
Right? Yeah. Which normally is one second ago.
Sure. Right? Sure.
But I went to Disneyland. Yeah.
All day Friday. Uh-huh.
Went there Thursday night. Then flew crack ass to Austin on Saturday.
Went to a sprint race, waved a checkered flag. Yeah.
Then went to the race on Sunday. Yes.
Walked another 10 miles. Then Monday went to the track and rode all day.
Mm-hmm. Then flew back last night.
So I feel like we haven't worked in three weeks. Right.
I also feel like it's been a while. Do you feel rusty? Yeah, I don't remember how to do it.
It's for the opposite reason, though. Okay.
Last week week i tried to get everything done all the edits so that i didn't have to work on friday because with what were you i just didn't want to i just wanted the day i needed a day yeah yeah to relax and um i did end up having to do a tiny edit in the morning, but it was fine. I was, oh, and I had a meeting.
But I was done by 1130. Oh, wow.
Virtually a three-day weekend. Yes.
And then you know what else I did? What? On Monday. Yeah.
I decided the same thing. Oh, wow.
And I was like, I'm going to just have to do extra on Tuesday, but it's okay. Okay.
And I really needed it. I didn't really realize it.
Yeah. But I really needed like a little tiny chunk of.
Rusty compress. Rusty, just getting to decide what I want to do and not think like, and at what point am I going to go open my computer and do X, Y, and Z? I think your skin is proof of it.
I'm wearing new makeup. Oh, wow.
Did you discover that in your leisure time? Yeah. A new brand.
And well, actually maybe it's not the makeup. Although today is the first day I'm wearing this new makeup.
Okay. I have also been using vitamin C serum, which does brighten your complexion.
It does. Yes.
And I used to use it, but I stopped all my stuff when I went to my new. When you had your hard reset.
When I had my hard reset, the goddess at Corrective Skin Care. I like just stopped everything and just did my basic, basic regimen with her.
But then I was like, ooh, I'm going to dip my baby toe in the water. Yeah, you kind of wanted more action.
A little bit. Yeah.
And so far. One day.
No, no. I've had, I've done vitamin C for like a week.
Oh, okay. Did you tell her you were going to? No, but she's cool.
She's cool with it. Do I need it? Vitamin C serum is great.
It's a great serum. Yeah.
Experts agree. They do.
I mean, it's good to wear sunscreen if you're going to use vitamin C serum. Oh, okay.
I don't. Yeah, well, you're brown.
I think that's for people that are white probably no but actually i am a little nervous so there is this little thing on my face here and we don't think it's your team oh so now i'm a little anxious that it is some sorry world um that it is some something that might need removal. Okay.
Now, if I need it removed, I did think this all through. It was like, what if I have a bandaid on my face for like two weeks? That's cool.
As long as you say like, I got it. I got careless with a knife and stab myself.
If there's some kind of cool reason. Raccoon scratched you.
Okay. Yeah.
Dog bite. But yeah, I had something removed and i have a band-aid or this is a wart removal i don't think it's a word i think it would be uh hypoplasia cancer hyperplasia i look is it okay really if i have to get this removed and I have to have a band-aid on my face for two weeks?

I think we're going to have to figure something out.

I can't.

Perform with a band-aid on your face?

I can't.

I can't even perform in life.

I'll have to be in my room for two weeks.

And you don't want to ruin one of your trips because I was going to say you could have it done right before spring break.

But I really want to go.

You just got to do what Sia does.

Oh, wear something over my face. Or your break.
But I really want to go. You just got to do what Sia does.
Oh, wear something over my face.

Or your haircut.

Okay.

Like a wig, but it's in front of my face.

Well, I don't think you would need to supplement your hair.

You have plenty to pull it in front of your band-aid.

Oh, like this?

What was it the time you did pull your hair as much as you could? In front? You had a chemical peel. Oh, yeah.
Remember? And then we had a hot guest. Oh, it was Chris Pine, right? Yes.
Yeah. Oh, my God.
That's right. I had it.
It wasn't chemical. It was herbal.
And there was just like an oval slit in the middle of your face. Yeah, I really, I wore my hair.
I was like really wearing it like.

Yeah.

Like real protective.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I guess.

Okay.

Fine.

I guess I'll do that if I have a bandaid.

Okay.

Maybe.

I don't know.

Oh, speaking of big revelation since the last time we spoke.

Oh, shoot.

I think I may have cut it.

We talked about hats. I do think I cut it.
Oh, okay. We talked about hats because I don't wear hats ever.
Right. But since we talked about it, I've worn a baseball hat twice.
You haven't. How do you like it? How's it going? Okay.
I like it because I feel like a different Monica when I wear it. Oh, it's a whole identity.

It's a completely different identity.

And what is that version of Monica like?

Like baseball games?

She's, no.

She's very, what's this face?

Over it?

Oh, she's over it.

No, it's not so much over it as like, I'm just so chill.

By the way, the look you just gave, a woman gave me in a restaurant on Monday night. Why? I was walking from the bathroom and I like caught eyes with this woman and this man.
And like, she was just like looking at me straight. And I was just kind of looking at her back straight.
And then all of a sudden she went, like gave me a real weird eye roll. And I was like, that was weird.
What were you wearing? Black t-shirt and jeans. Yeah.
And was it a fancy place? Oh, no, no, no, no. It's, it was great.
It's Mediterranean. It's right under the Soho house.
It was very,

Oh,

I love that place.

Do you know that place?

It's got like three letters.

Yes.

R-A-B or R-I-P.

It's not it.

I think there's an A in it.

A,

A-R-B or.

It had really good.

Okay.

That's the place that Erica,

Jess,

Laura and I fled to when we got kicked out of Barton Springs.

Oh,

really?

ABBA Austin.

ABBA?

Yeah.

ABA?

Yep.

Okay.

ABA.

ABA.

All right. and I fled to when we got kicked out of Barton Springs.
Oh, really? ABBA Austin. ABBA? Yeah.
ABA? Yep. Okay.
ABA. ABA.
Always be achieving. Always be aiding.
Always be aiding. Yeah, we went there.
Yeah, big, huge tree outside. Yeah, gorgeous.
So cute and tasty as hell. Yes, and then a very funny thing happened, which was I hung out with my friends, Amy and Rory, the whole time.
Rory and I went to the both races together. And what's so nice is he lends me one of his cars while I'm in town.
He did the last time we were there. Very nice car.
Yes. When we were there for Unboxed, he also lent it to me.
And I find that to be one of the most touching things imaginable just because I'm super into cars.

Yeah.

And I do not like loaning my cars out.

Yes. And it's a very, very nice car.

Very nice.

It's a Bentley Speed.

And I was like.

It's crazy.

Like, it's a car I wouldn't personally.

Loan out.

Yeah.

Or by myself.

Right.

You know, it's so nice.

It's gorgeous and it's green.

Yeah, it's a sexy green.

And we went to Dairy Queen in it. I did again.
And I was nervous. I did again.
You did? Uh-huh. Anyways, I love it.
I feel so fancy driving around Austin in it. And it really touches me.
So we went out to eat on Saturday with his dad and his stepmom and Angela. And I was there for O'Lambert's, our spot.
So I had put my credit card down. I gave it to him as soon as I got there.
And I was there before them. So the bill comes.
I pay. He's furious.
He really wants to pay. You can't pay.
You got two steaks. Exactly.
I knew I was going to eat like an asshole. And I did.
And so what was really funny was he said, OK, tomorrow night, I'm paying. OK.
And I said, OK, well, we'll see. And then he texts me in the day.
If you don't let me pay, I'm not loaning you my car anymore. And I said, really good leverage.
I'm definitely going to let you pay because I want to borrow your car. And then he decided last minute, I'm going to stay home with the kids.
Just Ange is coming, but you must let Ange buy. I was like, okay, okay.
So we have this dinner. It's spectacular.
There's a woman with a huge group of people. They're all from Minnesota.
The manager comes over and says, this woman has bought your dinner. Oh my God.
And sent over a dessert. That's so sweet.
So I was like, oh my God,

Ange,

I can't wait for you

to go home

and say you still,

you didn't get to buy

even though I agreed.

I didn't buy

but nor did they.

That is

the universe

giving a big old wink.

Yes,

yes.

Very nice woman.

That's so sweet.

Shout out.

I gave her a big hug,

big strong hug.

Oh,

okay,

that reminds me of two.

Okay,

that reminds me of something.

It has been a long time

yes right

weeks

okay but

pause on that

pin in that

okay

um

let's talk about

paying and stuff

okay great

when I first started working

for you guys

yeah

you know I only had so much

dollars in my pocket

sure sure

and I was coming off

a soul cycle

and stuff

yeah yeah yeah

and then but we all would hang out as a group and then we go to dinner. Yeah.
And I always felt like this is ridiculous that they're paying every time. I think it's bad.
And then, you know, people would offer and I would offer. Yeah.
And I think sometimes when you're in the position of paying, you feel like it's a just like gesture of an offer, right?

But it's not.

Like I think,

now I'm on sort of the other side of this

and I do also struggle

because I want to treat my friends to things.

I also understand what it's like when they're saying,

please, please let me pay. I know.
and I

cause I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like

I'm like I'm like I'm like I know. And I because I'm like, you're just I think you're just saying that because you want to be a polite, good person.
But actually, what I do know for me is you if you let someone pay every single time, you end up feeling like a mooch. Right.
And it feels bad.

Two things are happening for me and it's a challenge.

One is, it was pointed out to me by Tom Hansen,

very smart man who I think learned from a therapist.

Great, we love therapy.

Yeah, he's like, you have to,

relationships have to be reciprocal.

Yes.

And that's true, I get that.

And it's just a bummer that it has to be seen as reciprocal just financially. It doesn't, though.
Because here's my dilemma. So I get it.
Yeah. People want to, well, A, they want to treat you and they want to reciprocate.
But I have an ethical dilemma with it, which is like, I get paid too much money. Yeah.
It seems crazy that of the two of us, you're working your ass off. That's not to say that that's Rory and Angela's situation.
No, no, no, no. This is, yeah.
Just in general, if it's- Everyone's working hard. Everyone's working hard.
And if it's a lot less of a ding to me, I just feel ethically like this feels crazy. The example I gave my mom, cause my mom tries to pay.
I like this. Yeah.
I said, mom, just imagine we're walking through the desert and you were allotted a half gallon of water. And I was allotted a swimming pool.
Yeah. And we're traveling through the desert and you want to share your water with me.
It's nice, but I just ethically. I know.
I get this fucking, it would be so wrong of me to take your water. I think that too.
But what there is a risk of is a power imbalance does start, can start forming. I know.
But what blows is it's mostly in the mind of the person who's getting something for free, which I get. Yes, there are certain personality types that it does lead to resentment.
Hence, Tom telling me that you got to make sure you're. I think it in different for different people, resentments on both sides.
Yeah. You know, there can definitely be a I've done so much for you.
And now and you aren't doing that, you know, whatever. I think humans, even though we think we're bigger than that, sometimes it slips in.
We're keeping score. I don't know.
It's tricky though. Yeah.
I think it's tricky. Well, like I'll notice like, okay, I'm about to make Rory mad.
Like you want to feel equal to anyone in a relationship, friendship, anything, you know? And so if one person, again, it's tricky because I, I feel the same as you. I'm like, I am happy to pay because I also don't contribute in many other ways that these other people are contributing.
So to me, it's all equal, but there is something about finances for people that make everyone go bonkers yes i have a friend who does well but also has times of not being you know struggling a little bit yeah and she is actually like if i for out to dinner she'll she'll definitely offer and i'm like no And she will just say, thank you. I really appreciate it.
Yeah, yeah. Because she also understands like, yeah, we just spent this dinner talking about my rough struggle.
Yeah. Yeah, that would be kind of crazy for me to be like, okay, yeah, we'll split it in half now.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's just tricks.

But money makes relationships complicated.

Yeah.

It really does.

I hate that, but I think it's real.

I know what you'd like to go is like, oh, we're kind of like a group.

One of us got this thing.

I'm going to share it.

But it is complicated.

Yeah.

And I'm trying to think when I was on the other end of it.

I wasn't resentful, but I was judgmental. What do you mean? Like when I was broke and maybe where I'd experienced it with is my brother would pay for everything, which was so nice.
Yeah. And he really took, he took my vacations.
That's nice. Yeah, it was super nice.
and it was a nice luxury in those eight years of being broke um but i because i coveted money so much and i didn't have it i would be like god they're so wasteful like the way they order food so much stuff goes uneaten um that's interesting yeah so i was like often judgmental regret. Because now, surely, if you were witnessing me, you would easily say that.
Sure. Like my thing is I'll order too much food if people are over or whatever.
Yeah, yeah. I act just like my brother does.
Right. So I have to think, yeah, some people are like probably maybe fine with it and appreciative and also judgmental and that's fair because I was huh yeah it's all based on our like I remember walking to my brother's garage and he had so many snowmobiles uh-huh and I was like what the fuck does he need all these snow you can only ride one and he's like they're not fun unless I can have friends right come ride and my friends don't own them yeah and um yeah, I look at my garage and I'm like, yeah, there's three motorcycles I don't need.
But when Aaron's here, we ride together or, you know, they're only fun if I can. Maybe you should apologize to him.
Maybe I should. That's a good idea.
Yeah. But I don't know if he knew I was.
He's like, no, it's hard to do. My sister will occasionally listen.
So maybe this would get to him this would get to oh yeah yeah yeah it it's so much it's so based on our our past too because i don't i don't think i had judgment over like excess but i didn't grow up feeling like i didn't have enough Yeah, yeah. So that's probably why.
Yeah. But I definitely felt like I need to be an equal here.
Mm-hmm. That's my own past stuff.
Okay, now back to my pen. Yes.
Something bad happened. Oh.
Okay, you know on the streets of places there are people with clipboards yes who are trying to sign you up for things yes they're trying to sign you up for things they are always like it's always a nice cause you know i i believe in these people's hearts yes they have good hearts probably i don't know them but i'm never gonna stop and sign a thing on a clipboard yeah and in fact when i see when i like approach anyone with a clipboard i get like this sense of dread yes yes i think we all do Yeah, I think it's pretty universal. And I think like, what are they?

Why?

It's even worse than someone panhandling. You've somehow like that.
You've worked through the guilt of that years ago. Yes.
And those first, they want something. This is like, they want a good change.
Whether or not I agree with their. Right, they want change for the world.
But they're out there like volunteering.

I know.

I know.

And all it would take is just a few minutes of conversation in my signature.

Yeah, but I've read some of those things.

I'm like, I'm actually not aligned with this.

That's happened to me.

But they know, they're smart.

They're very smart because they know what to say, right?

They'll say, they'll say.

Do you want reproductive rights?

Exactly.

Sign this non-toxin apple.

Yeah.

Do you believe in trans rights?

That's a big one where I'm like, yes, but I'm not, I don't want to talk to you.

Like, it's like, it gets.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so my normal method is just to like, I just say sorry.

And I just keep walking with my head down. I say sorry, honestly, with a little bit of like, yeah, irritability.
And Callie taught me, she said, I think a good way to do it is to say not today, but thank you and keep going. And I was like, that's polite.
It also says, I will, just not today yeah and then and thank you for your service so then you can't go back there if you've used that method it can't be a place you visit every day well if oh you think they're going to be there every day yeah like if you are going grocery shopping great that's once a week yeah but your normal starbucks you can't say next time because you'll see them the next day. They're outside Maru a lot.
Oh, I know. I've walked like four blocks out of the way to avoid walking past them.
They're praying on the. Exactly.
Yeah. Okay.
So I, I practiced. Okay.
She taught me that. I was like, that's good.
I'm going to start adopting that because I don't like the way it feels when I say sorry. Right.
So a couple of days later, I was on Larchmont. Of course, there's clip orders.
I don't remember what they were trying to get me to do. But I I said, not today.
Thank you. I got a little tripped up because he said, I like your pants.
Oh, yeah. And I was like, oh, thank you.
And then he got. Yes.
And he came in again and I was like, oh, not today. But I'd already said it.
So that one wasn't great. That wasn't great.
That was my first attempt. And then on Friday, this past Friday, you're going to hate this.
Yeah, my day off. I decided to go shopping, obviously.
And on Sycamore. And so I was walking.
I see some clipboarders, but I don't know. They're actually not holding a clipboard this time, but they have like some sort of setup.
Okay. Yeah.
A kiosk. Makeshift something.
And I was like, oh, no. Okay.
Not today.

Thanks.

Like I practiced in my head.

Yeah.

And then I went up.

I started to walk past and they said something like, do you like the earth?

Oh, yeah.

Do you like breathing fresh air?

Yeah.

Or do you care about the environment?

Or maybe it was like, do you want to protect something?

It wasn't actually that mean or, you know, that aggressive.

Okay.

And I said, no, not today.

No.

And then I got anxious.

And so then I started walking really fast.

And then the woman, it was a woman and a man.

And the woman said, are you?

Oh, no.

I know.

Yeah.

Wow.

Uh-huh.

She said, are you Monica?

And I said, oh, yeah, I am.

And I think that oh yeah, I am. And I'm still walking.
I mean, this is a nightmare. Yeah.
Now you don't start running. And I like, my pace is picking up and I was like, yeah.
Oh yeah, I am. And she was like, oh my God, I I'm, I'm a huge fan and I'm walking still.
I can't stop. Yes.
That's worse. Right.
It's worse if I'm like, oh, you're a fan. I guess I will come over and chit chat with you about the earth.
Like, right. Oh, yeah.
This is a really big pick. Cats to two.
Yeah. So, yeah.
And I was like, oh, thank you so much. And I meant that.
I'm very grateful that this very nice person who's spending, I'm going shopping and this person's spending her day for the earth. Yeah.
And she is a fan of us. It's like, this feels like opposite world.
I'm sure she's a fan of you. She probably gets through of me.
Well, now we probably lost her. Oh, God, Monica, you should have signed.
Just sign. Fuck.
I didn't have to. Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. This was actually a part of it.
I had parked on the street where it was going to start towing in 40 minutes. Oh, okay.
So you had a time clock. I was on a clock.
Yeah. And I hadn't even gotten to the store yet.
Oh, yeah. You didn't have time to get political or you didn't have time to be an activist.
I didn't. Yeah.
It was a shopping. It was my free day.
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Lamont Jones's world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison.
The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County PA, a chilling true story of corruption and cover-ups that begins as one man's search for answers, but soon reveals a disturbing pattern.
Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never-before-heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County PA pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets.
This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now.
Follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.
I just say I'm very happy. I'm not sorry.
Right. I just go, oh, no, thanks.
Like literally outside of Skylight Books, they say, do you care about the kids and children in Palestine? Oh, boy. It's so, like saying no, thank you.
You've said no. It feels like bad energy.
Yeah, right. And that's why I just say sorry.
I'm so sorry. I'm a bad person.

Yeah, that's like. I'm a bad person.

That's the subtext.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyhow.

Well, I hope they clean that up.

That's soliciting.

All these signs, all these places have signs that say no.

Do you think I should start my own?

That's to get these clipboarders gone?

Oh, wow.

That would be ironic.

Yeah.

Yeah, a petition to get rid of a measure, state measure to get rid of, you can't hold the clipboard. I feel bad.
They're doing such, everyone's so, they're good people. Like I recognize that, but I just don't, I think honestly, I feel pessimistic that signing this thing is going to do anything for the children in Palestine I what I want to say is like I've already I already support them I've already given money I've already done my part on both sides so don't come over here also you guys you clip, you clipboarders over here.
I'm doing my part. Yeah.
Assigning this to me means nothing. And all you've done is make me so mad at this cause now.
Now I'm mad at your cause. Right.
Now I don't like any of the kids of the world. I hate the children of the world now.
I'm glad I'm not getting that much clipboard traffic, thank goodness. You don't walk very much.
It does make me remember, though, you know, in the airport before, back when you could go through security without a plane ticket pre-9-11. Yeah.
There were all kinds of people working in the airport. And there is a whole legion of people that come up and they would hand you a little piece of paper and you look at it maybe it was lightly like a present like it was a tiny little trinket and then you'd open up and it would say like i'm deaf and mute they're working they were they used to work lax hard and i remember being like maybe chris and i there and like someone's coming up with a little trinket and i'm like don't take take it.
Don't take the trinket. Don't.
Yeah. Because that one feels like also you're going to get a hex or what do you go? Exactly.
A spell on you. You might get a spell on you if you take the trinket and you've touched it and you don't give them money.
I know. Is that like, is that our generation? We like saw some movie or something

that taught us about spells or something. Oh, Slimmer or something.
That's a... Thinner.

Thinner, right? Is that it? Yeah. It's not Spielberg, but...
I don't know who it is,

but Jess talks about Thinner all the time. The most famous king, Stephen King.
Right.

He gets a, what'd you call it? It's not a hex. No, a scary man will touch you and say thinner.
Yeah. And then you get really thin and you disappear.
Yep. A curse.
Curse. A curse.
A curse. A curse.
Yes. Yeah.
That's so funny that you bring that. I've never seen it and I had never heard of it.
But one time, remember I was at, again, because I walk so much. I was at a stop light, ready to cross.
An unhoused person touched me. Right.
I remember those. Yes.
Because it kind of caressed your back. Yeah.
And it was really creepy and I really didn't like it. And then when I told Jess, he said, Thiener.
Oh, okay. So that was your big update.
That was a big update of mine. Yeah.
The clipboards. Yeah.
I like it. It was a good one.
But you told me you had an update. I do.
I just wanted to make sure that I got the update. I do have another update.
You have another update. Well, but do you want to tell me any of your updates? Let me see if I wrote anything down in my fact check category.
Oh, you know, I've actually formed a, I encourage you to do this. I made a notes folder called bucket list.
I've never actually had a bucket list. Have you ever actually written down a bucket list? No.
But I thought it was a good idea. So I've done, I've done that.
Oh, what's on it? Isle of Man. That's a motorcycle race on the Isle of Man.
It's crazy. The one you taught us about here.
You said people die. Yeah.
Every year someone dies. I got to go to that.
That Iowa bicycle ride that you cross Iowa. Do you need to be in it or can you just go? I'll probably do.
There's a day before the race, maybe Saturday or Friday, where you can ride the course. Okay.
It has a crazy name. But I would like to ride the course and then spectate for the madness okay uh the bicycle ride across iowa okay that sounds so fun great and then the great loop on a boat which i've talked about before of course 6 000 mile of course all of yours are um transportation oriented king of conveyance king of conveyance the king of conveyance uh oh no i haven't written anything down okay well yesterday yeah i relearned mahjong rachel anthony allison and i used to play mahjong a lot okay um way back in the day and now it's like like hip.
Like everyone's playing Mahjong.

Yeah, I think Kristen went to like a Mahjong learning day at a friend's house.

Kristen's been doing a Mahjong thing.

And there's different countries of origin versions of Mahjong.

Yeah, American Mahjong is the one that like Jewish women play.

All right.

And that's the one that's taken off. But there's an Asian one.
It's originally Chinese, Mahjong is, but this is different. And it's so fun.
But I had forgotten. I completely forgot how to play.
But I felt like annoyed that it was back in. It's like in vogue.
Right. And I was pre.
Yeah. Is it more complicated than spades? It's so complicated.
It's so complicated. But in such a fun way.
I think you'll like it. Oh, really? I think you should learn.
Yeah. I mean, there's parts you're not going to like because there's a lot of pomp and circumstance.
A lot of pageantry? Yes. There's a whole way of like the way you set up and then you like push your wall out and then the way you deal is very specific and then you do this thing called the charleston which is a way of passing and um yes and then you have a booklet it's a new one every year the national mahjong league puts out a new card every year.
Oh, wow. And so each card has like many, many lines of variations of what you're basically trying to make on your board.
Yeah. Okay.
And it's so fun. And you play with tiles? Tiles.
Tiles. And obviously I bought a set.
Yeah, a real nice set.

Yeah, but actually mine's a little cheeky.

Oh, playful?

Yeah, the winds have, winds are a part one suit-ish of the tiles.

Mine have mermaids on them.

Oh, fun.

Yeah.

So anyway, I was really reinvigorated by it. I didn't win.
We played two games and I did not win. So.
That was hard. That is not sitting well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rachel grew up playing Mahjong.
She's been playing for 27 years. Right.
This is like the girls in spades. They'll be unstoppable.
Exactly. And her mom plays in tournaments and stuff.
Oh, wow. And so she's the one that taught me and then she taught us yesterday which was really fun but also what i think i want to do i feel bad because amy listens to this show religiously shout out hi amy amy was there last night as part of the learning group but who hosted the learning group me oh i did with it was just laura and amy and rachel okay and um then i think what i'm gonna do to get ahead is have another group oh an accelerated group no just so so that I'm playing double.
Okay. And with another, with Elizabeth as the teacher.
So just in case Rachel and Elizabeth have different techniques, I want it all. Okay.
You're committed to getting really good at it. Yes.
Oh, wow. I guess I should learn.
I'm in the process of learning bridge, which our lessons are like every two months and we all forget. Who's teaching? This nice gentleman.
Oh. Yeah, he's a professional bridge player and teacher.
Well, that's fun. Yeah.
But we forget because we've only done two or three lessons in over six months. That's not good.

Yeah, you got to hit it much harder than that.

Anyway, that's my update.

Oh, wonderful.

That's my big update.

Okay, this is for Dove.

Ah.

Great episode.

What a lovely episode.

Beautiful episode.

I love her.

I love her.

I love him.

For people who don't remember, that was Seth. Seth's daughter.
Seth's daughter. Yeah.
Seth Green's daughter. Seth Green's beautiful.
Beautiful doesn't even describe it. Sparkly as hell.
She's a fairy. Yeah.
She's like Tinkerbell. Yeah.
But with red hair. I don't know what color hair Tinkerbell had.
Probably blonde. Probably, yeah.
They like to put those sprites and those fairies, make them blonde. Exactly.
Perpetuate. That blondes have more fun because they're fairies.
They make wishes and dreams come true. Ugh.
Okay. Bloomers.
Bloomers. Where do they originate? The bloomer, the Turkish dress, the American dress.
Oh, this is kind of a ding, ding, ding to Mahjong.

It is, yeah.

Multiple locations.

Or simply a reformed dress are divided women's garments for the lower body.

They were developed in the 19th century as a healthful and comfortable alternative to the heavy, constricting dresses worn by American women.

They take their name from their best-known advocate, the women's rights activist Amelia Bloomer. Now, is it just a skirt or there's pants in it? There's legs.
There's legs. There's legs.
It's like a bloomer is like shorts. Yeah.
OK. The name bloomers was derogatory and was not used by the women who wore them, who referred to their clothes as the reform costume or the American dress.
The bloomer costume caught on among some white middle-class women who sought, quote, dress reform as an integral part of the fight for women's equality in the mid-1800s. So that's cool.
My thing would be back then you didn't have washing machines. You're still hand washing everything everything the notion of splitting up the

dress into two pieces sounds smart because what if the top got dirty but not the bottom or vice versa you sat in a little something you could just wash the bottom yeah but the top remained clean true it seems like it cut it would cut laundry down that's true what do they use just regular soap? Lye.

Ew. I think.

Which is also what you can decompose a body with.

Ugh. That's true.
What do they use? Just regular soap? Lye, I think. Which is also what you can decompose a body with.
You put a body in a barrel. You pack it full of lye.
And then you open it up in a couple hours and it's just Jell-O. Ew! No, I don't know what it is.
Oh my God. That was so, I like saw it.
I saw it. You saw? A Jell-O body.
Oh, my God. That was so I like saw it.
I saw it. You saw a jello body.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. OK.
Does having lots of drink meat drinks around you mean you have ADHD? No, not necessarily. It doesn't.
It could be the result of many things. A busy lifestyle, forgetfulness, unrelated to ADHD, or simply a preference for having multiple options available.
Okay. The gooey duck, which she brought up, they gooey duck hunt or whatever, gather.
Rob, can you bring up the pic? It's a wild looking, disgusting clam. Would you eat it no having seen a photo no and i like seafood but uh-uh not this seafood native to the coastal waters of the eastern north pacific ocean from alaska to baja california teeming with oh my god typical lifespan of 140 40 years.
Oh, my God. You could be eating an animal that's 130 years old oh that feels that feels unethical it does it looks like a white elephant penis yeah yeah it looks disgusting.
I don't understand for the listener, the clam shell only covers about 33% of this thing's body. I don't even understand.
Ew. Oh, my God.
That's so phallic. And the clam looks, the shell looks like balls in this photo.
Exactly. This looks like a cowboy.
It's very penisy. Oh! I can't imagine eating this.
This is so good for everyone who eats it. And then what's inside a big ball? Well, that's the clammy part, I think.
That's the gooey. It looks like the skin is peeled off.
That's that bottom part. Oh! Revealing all that tender, delicious gooey duck.
That one's uncut. And it's called a gooey duck or that one's cut sorry excuse me that one's circumcised oh man god bless yeah what do you put on that thing fucking wasabi or something to kill the i mean if it's if it's clams i guess you maybe? Slice it into tiny chunks.
Yeah, you blanch and boil it and then you enjoy it raw or sashimi or cook it in various ways like stir frying. Anyone putting it on a hot dog bun? Eating it like a tube steak? Wait, this says the shaft can be one meter, three feet.
Oh, definitely elephant size. Wow.
Yeah. It's the largest burrowing clam in the world.
And as we said, one of the longest living animals of any type. Wow.
Oldest has been recorded at 179 years old. Oh my gosh.
Oh my God. I feel like it's not good to eat these.
You could be cutting off. What's better to eat an animal that had 150 year life or to eat one that has only got a year and then you rob half of it? Huh.
Probably the former. We'd agree if someone was eating humans yeah it'd be a lot better if they ate our 100 year olds than our children fuck i guess that's true but you're also if you ate a 50 year old gooey duck you're.
Mid-century. Yeah, like you're really prematurely robbing it of 100 years.
120 years. Oh boy.
Well, we don't have to deal with this because we're not going to eat any gooey duck. Or people.
Anytime soon. Okay, Disney's music label, Disney Music Group is home to Hollywood Records.

Okay.

That was a fact.

Queerbaiting.

Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at but do not depict same-sex romance or other LGBTQ plus representation.

Or this says harassment, abuse, or targeted provocation of gay people.

Do we want to discuss if I'm queerbait or not? If you want. Do you think you are? You're not queerbait.
It's not like. That was a derogatory term in elementary school.
Oh, queerbait. Oh, yeah.
Queerbait. It's so weird.
So weird. Because it's not even even you're just saying you're attractive yeah queers yeah but back then anything having to do with yeah anything anything gay adjacent to gay was remember when gap had do you remember this and maybe that was just my gen for a while like wearing gap gap stood for gay and proud oh oops yeah so it's like you weren't like if you wore that people would say gay and proud how is a company do you like combat that combat that um include everyone and also go we're not a strictly gay exactly yeah but that was before now that isn't that so funny just not an issue right not thank god yeah speaking of real quick um what i am noticing maybe we already talked about this we did i'm really sorry but it's so funny to me watching er what was so important back then and what was like top of mind fear wise yeah what was going on AIDS AIDS there are so many episodes about AIDS really so many storylines yeah Che Che this four-year-old boy died of AIDS it was horrible he was so cute there's a very famous clip of um Walker Texas Ranger the Chuck Norris show.
You didn't see it, but you know exactly what it is.

Okay. And I want to say it's Haley Jo Osment is the guest star.
He's a little kid. Okay.
And it's this clip that goes around my Instagram all the time. And it's Walker and he's with the little Haley Jo Osment.
They're talking to other men. And Haley goes, yeah.
And then Walker and I really had a long talk. And that's when I told him I have AIDS.
It's like, how dare they? How dare they make this scene? It's like four cowboys. Like, I don't know.
Wow. I mean, good for them for trying to.
I mean, oh, do we have it?

Oh, my God, Rob, you're incredible.

We're coming to a clip show, and I like it.

Are we going to have volume is the question.

Oh, there's a woman involved.

Or maybe I misremembered who he's talking to.

It makes sense if it was a woman.

You're a little brother.

Hi, and it's a little visitor now. I don't want you always how you say it in Cherokee.
Oh, pardon my French, but I'll be there. Oh, my God.
Walker told me I had AIDS. Oh, even better.
Walker told me I have AIDS. Oh, my.
How on earth did that fall under Walker's purview? It was a big non sequitur. I'll say they were like talking about Cherokee and the boys picked up some other language.
And then Walker told me I have AIDS. What if he just guessed? They're not based on any lab results oh my god little man i think you have aids just

judging from the way you walk and what year was that 90s yeah yeah 90s 90s was a really big time for aids that are yeah i think i'm imagining uh gen z and stuff like when i was in 11th grade or 10th grade, turned 16, magic came out.

Yeah.

As having AIDS.

Yes.

Or HIV.

Yeah. As having AIDS.
Yes. Or HIV.
Yeah, HIV. And a book.
And it was, oh my God, he's going to die. I know.
And everyone's going to die that gets it. Yeah.
It's so different. So different.
I mean, do kids even know about AIDS now? My kids don't ever bring up AIDS. I was so scared of AIDS.
It was in my prayer. It was.
Yeah. Even though you didn't do any of the things.
I didn't know. I just knew it was a scary thing.
So part of it was no cancer AIDS. Yeah.
I remember on the other end reading a article that said of the population in New York that had HIV, 92% were either gay men or intravenous drug users.

Right.

So I used that to regulate my fear of it.

But you were an intravenous drug user?

No, I was never an intravenous drug user. You never did? I never shot any heroin, no.
Oh, thank God. Thank God.
Yeah. I really thought you did.
I might not have come back from that. Yeah.
No, no intravenous drug use for me. Thank God.
Lots of sharing dollar bills with blood on them. Hepatitis was in the cards for me, but not, God,

I guess you could have got,

yeah,

you could have got HIV from that.

I guess it's really unstable though.

It dies when it hits the air pretty easy,

like way easier than we were led to believe at the beginning.

But yeah,

cause I would,

I would have sex with someone,

not wear rubber.

Yeah.

And I'd be convinced I had HIV for two weeks.

Sure.

And then I'd go get tested and I didn't. Yeah.
And at some point I had to get my hands around this fear. Yeah.
And I based it a lot on that article. I mean.
Yeah. I.
And for a while, remember, there were like rumors you could just get it from drinking out of someone's glass. At the very beginning, they didn't want kids in pools.

I know.

So bad. I know.
And then this huge stigma. I mean, definitely did not help with gay stigma.
Yeah, no. Yeah.
Big AIDS, you know. I don't think he'd mind me saying it.
I know I told you, but I think. on one of the episodes, there was, there was a boy, a young man who had hiccups.
Yes. And he saw it was a side effect of HIV.
Yeah. He had hiccups and then it was really fine.
It was nonchalant. It was nothing.
It was silly. He was getting married to his fiance.
She was there too. Everything was fine.
This was an ER episode? Uh-huh. Okay.
And then they just do a scan just to, it's fine, but we're going to do a scan. And then there was some thing, like some lung thing or liver, something that meant he had AIDS.
Oh. And Jess has this hiccup issue.
Yes, he does. And so I saw this and I really was like, did you call him immediately? Well, it was at night and I thought I need to sleep on it because I think this is going to be a hard conversation.
But I also think I've noticed you have hiccups. Like, what if I was meant to watch ER to save Jess? Right, right, right.
And so the next day I did call him. I don't normally call him on the phone.
Yeah. He's probably scared.
Yeah. Well, and he should be.
I said, hey, you know, it's not a big deal, but I just, I was watching this episode of ER and this happened. It was AIDS.
And he just like was quiet. And he said, I get tested.
I said, okay, well, just make sure you're continuing to get tested. Right.
Monitor those hiccups. Anyhow.
Are you queer baiting or what? Well, we have talked about that I flirt with men and women. Yeah, you flirt with everyone.
That's right. But I don't think I'm queer baiting.
I don't either, but I'm not the recipient, so I can't say. Right.
Maybe some people might say that you were. Yeah, stop flirting with me unless you want to seal the deal.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I don't want to seal the deal. I just want to flirt.
I know. But it's like, maybe you shouldn't, maybe you lost that right when you got married.
I don't know. I don't think so.
Also, it does make me think of a Sedaris chapter we were listening to. This is now the funnest thing, I think I told you.
We now listen to Sedaris at night in bed. Wow.
And he's talking about every doctor he knows has pulled things out of people's rectum. Uh-huh.
As we've learned from the nurses we've interviewed. Yep.
And he says, most people claim it's from falling down on something. Now I'm clumsy and I've fallen a bunch of times and I've never stood up and had a candle in my ass.
In fact, I'd argue that I could probably fall down off every flight of stairs in the World Trade Center holding three candles and a baseball bat. And I'm pretty sure at the bottom, I wouldn't have any of those items up my ass.
That is very funny. He words it so much better but god he's funny oh is he funny he's brilliant um all right well that's well big um shout out love shout out to dove yeah that was an awesome episode i liked it so much me too i hope everyone listens and if you listen pass it on pass it along forward.
This would be a fun one to watch on YouTube if you want to see me cry.

Sure.

Yeah.

That's your kink.

You're like Monica.

Yeah, true.

You're like a nice cry.

All right.

Love you.

Love you.

Love you. by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
Before you go, tell us about yourself

by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.