Sunita Sah (on defiance)

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard.
I'm joined by Monica Mouse. Hi.
Hello. Today we have Dr.
Sunita Saw on, and she is an award-winning professor at Cornell University and an expert in organizational psychology. She has a new book out called Defy the Power of No in a World that Demands Yes.
I loved this topic. Yes.
I think it's really important to know how to stick up for yourself, when to stick up for yourself. Yeah, I see this book as being enormously helpful for a huge amount of the population.
Yes. It's very, very, very good.
And also the amount of her own story she includes and acknowledges how hard it is for her, I think is always helpful. What we like on this show is sort of looking at the opposite side of it.
We talk in the episode and she starts a book with George Floyd and the rookie cops that were there. We get into all that and it's really fascinating and thinking about if you really put yourself in that position, what would you do? What would you do versus what you think you would do? Yeah, and what you should do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how you, yeah, some tools to make sure you do what you think you would do.
Yeah. Please enjoy Dr.
Sunita Saw. This message is brought to you by Apple Card.
Apple Card is a no-fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day. That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay.
Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval.
Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of January 1st, 2025.
Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at AppleCard.com.
We are supported by Addy, Flavanserin, the little pink pill. Ask your doctor if the FDA-approved little pink pill Addy is right for you.
See full prescribing information, medication guide, and boxed warning regarding severe low blood pressure and fainting in certain settings at addyi.com slash pi or call 844-PINK-PILL. What's more popular, Monica, for Indian kids, to be a Neil or a Monica? They're both pretty common.
Because Neil I'm finding really is, if I'm life or death and I've got to guess what someone's. Really? I've got to go Neil.
It just feels highest percentage.

Yeah, yeah.

I think you should go J.

Oh, really?

Uh-huh.

That's the most common?

Do you disagree?

Yeah.

Because you've been here for 16 years.

Oh, my goodness.

Has it been that long?

It'll be 17 this year, 2025.

2008, yeah?

2008.

Now you make me feel nervous.

That's no wonder my son says that he's American now, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

How long have he been? He moved when he was one. We almost went back to the UK in 2020 during the pandemic.
So I got offered a position at the University of Cambridge. We were all like, let's go.
And then he said, no, I am American. Wow.
He really planted a flag, literally. But you all were living there when he was five, when the Olympics came through town? We went back when you said 2008.
So that last year, I finished my PhD and I was doing my postdoc down at Duke. We were living in Chapel Hill.
And then you get one year of this extra, you can stay. And then the second year of my postdoc, my family didn't get visas.
So they went back to London and I was going back and forth. Oh, boy.
You travel a lot. Even just now before Monica was here, you're saying you're teaching in Utica, is it? Or Syracuse? Ithaca and Roosevelt Island.
Oh, wow. Those are on opposite ends of the state of New York.
It's about four hours between. Oh gosh.
And you're doing that at the same time? Occasionally. It hasn't worked that well.
Now just one semester in one place in one semester. Yeah.
Because going back and forth is too much. That's a lot.
You grew up in the UK? Yeah. Okay.
And your parents, had they emigrated there? I was one when I came to England. Okay.
I grew up my whole life there and also in Scotland. So my dad first came to England from India and did his PhD, then went back to India and then brought a family.
You are a polymath. You've done many, many things.
You've studied a lot of things. You've done research in a lot of things.
But you were first a medical doctor. That's right.
And so tell me, being a kid, when do we get the idea to be a doctor?

And what is that experience before you change course?

Yeah, so in our community, medicine is one of the best things you can do, right?

So I had the grades.

I was a good kid.

I asked my dad when I was young, what does my name mean?

And he said, in Sanskrit, sunita means good.

Oh, wow.

And so I mostly lived up to that.

I was a good girl in their eyes.

So I did exactly what I was told.

I did all my homeworks expected. I was what in Yorkshire they call SWATI, which means you're a SWAT.
You work really hard. You do all your homework.
Maybe it's equivalent to nerd here. Oh, okay.
Yeah, I guess if you ask me where the derivative of nerd comes from, I have no clue. Because I was going to say, where does that originate? SWOT.
What is that an abbreviation for? Who knows? I don't know. But when you talk about SWOT now, especially at business schools, it means something totally different.
Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats. That's not what it means when I was growing up.
So I got the grades and it's like, why wouldn't you want to do medicine? And I was like, well, I'm not sure. It's really for me.
But in the UK, it's a combined undergraduate and graduate degree. So you basically start at the age of 18, medical school, and you finished.
I was on the wards in my early 20s. Oh, no kidding.
From entering your first intro to biology class to having a patient, how short can that be in England? Biology, we had to do as egg levels before you go in. At that point, it was five years.
That's it. But when you say first seeing a patient, the first two years are preclinical.
So you're learning things. Then the third year, you're on the wards and you're a clinical.
By the time you're 22, 23, you're qualified, you're on the wards. Wow.
Okay. Is that better or worse? There's pros and cons.
Here you have to work so hard. I got all my education for free, which is pretty impressive.
There's a small cost now in the UK, but I went through the whole medical school. I mean, earning peanuts once you start as a junior doctor, but that aspect of working earlier is great.
So you can get through. Making the decision so early, questionable.
Although I say my career is perfectly planned. It was perfectly planned how I ended up here.
But suddenly there was a lot of pressure and I lived up to those expectations of going to medical school and then finishing medical school and ended up working as a doctor. And did you enjoy being a doctor? I knew it wasn't for me.
There were certain aspects I really loved, like the analytical part. I'm always analytical.
I was always thinking, always questioning. It's problem solving.
Yes. I'm really fascinated by people as well.
So just talking to people, meeting people, learning about their lives. So that aspect was great.
I wasn't actually into the blood and gore aspect. I remember talking to my teachers about that, like, oh, I don't know about medicine and shit.
And they were like, it's just two years preclinical. You're going to do that fine.
And then just get through the clinical years and then you can end up doing research. So when do we get interested in organizational psychology? So we're always interested in psychology.
So when I was at medical school, I did my two years preclinical and then I took a year out to do what they call an intercalated degree in psychology. So they basically throw you in the fourth year of psychology and you catch up on the four years.
Oh, wow. In that one year.
But that was such a wonderful year. It was amazing.
That's when I started reading about Milgram Stanley's famous experiments, Obedience to Authority. I became fascinated with that, who did what we call the electric shock experiment.
Yes, yes, yes. So Stanley Milgram was really fascinated by why the Nazis in World War II always kept saying, I was just following orders afterwards when they were being investigated for war crimes.
And so he decided to set up this experiment, which was quite elaborate, where he would bring people in from the community and they would be an actor. It was designed as an experiment on memory.
That's what they thought they were coming into and whether sort of giving someone electric shocks would help them learn better. Wow.
So that was the setup. First experiments were conducted at Yale in their basement, I think.
So people would come in, they would meet somebody else that they thought was another participant, but it was actually an actor that they had. And they would rig it so the actor would be what they call the learner.
So then he would go into this room and the participant who was the teacher would see him being rigged up to what looked like an electric chair. And they would feel one of the shocks, 15 volts or something.
So it all looks really real. And then the teacher would go to another room and they would be sat in front of this box that was sort of labeled from 15 volts to 450 volts.
Right. And it would go up in 15 volt increments and it would be labeled.
So right at the end, it was three X's, danger, huge shock. Yeah.
So they are, they can be lethal shocks at that point. Then the teacher had to read out some word pairs and the learner had to memorize and repeat them back.
And if they got something wrong, they would get a shock and then it would go up 15 balls. And the test subject would be in charge of administering the shock, right? Yes.
So they had to read out the word pairs and the experimenter was usually in the room just sort of overseeing. And if the teacher protested, they would tell them, you know, please go on with the experiment.
They had like four prompts to tell them, please go on. It's essential that you continue.
The experiment requires that you go on. And when psychiatrists predicted beforehand what would happen, they thought that most people would not go past 150 volts.
And in fact, every single participant in the first experiment went past that. And the actor is screaming.
About 150 volts, there's thumping on the wall and there's verbal complaints. I don't want to go on with this.
I don't want to go on. Oh my God.
Get me out of here. I refuse to go on with the experiment.
And it was also told to the participants he had a heart condition. Oh my God.
This is really horrifying.

They predicted only about one in 1,000 would go up to 450 volts.

But they found that everyone pulled the lever for 150 volts.

Everyone pulled it for 300 volts. No.

And 66% went up to 450 volts.

Holy shit.

Even Milgram was shocked. Yeah.
He was shocked at the results because he didn't think that he would find that. And he was like, I really thought this was something unique about German culture, but everybody is doing this.
I understand that you're in a class, you learn that. That is intrinsically interesting.
I think everyone would be a bit interested in that. But then I also am curious, was there an additional layer for you personally where that is extra interesting? As I said, I was always known for being an obedient daughter and student, but I was fascinated by people who could defy.
And I was good friends with someone at high school. Let's call her Clara.
She was able to defy. I started at St.
Joseph's College, which is an all girls Catholic school at the other side of town. My dad thought that I'm going to get a good education there.
So I would catch two buses to go to St. Joseph's.
It was the roughest school I've been to. I don't know what he thought, but it was also a lot of fun.
Everyone's where you want to send your good girl. And Clara came in two weeks late.
She had moved from Hastings in the south of England to the north. And so she was different a little bit.
I was also different. I was just one of a handful of non-white girls at the school.
And we became really close friends, even though we were so different from each other. Were you so attracted to her ability to defy? Absolutely.
I was like, how can she do that? Because she just walked in. We had this sort of checkered blue and white blouse that we'd wear and a red sweater.
She walked in without the red sweater. She just stood out so much.
And I was like, who is she? Especially because the headmistress had said before, I want everybody in their red sweaters because when I look out, I just want to see a sea of red. Can I bring up to speed a little bit on our own personal dynamic? Her other best friend, other than me, is six foot seven redhead.
The most assertive, loud. He's openly gay without any fear of it.
He's so him. He's fearlessly himself.
Yeah, yeah. And then I will fit in that box a bit as well.
So there's a fun thing with Monica and I and then Monica and Jessica. Because I was also very good.
Yeah, I was going to say. You're still very good.
You're a good girl. Thank you.
Is it a good thing though? Right. And I think I've grown into, I totally defy.
You've transcended for what I know about your school experience and trying to acclimate and blend in and all those things. I don't see you as that way at all, but certainly you did spend a good deal of your life.
Oh, yeah. Just trying to be good.
Just trying to do everything I needed to do to not get removed. Or singled out.
From society or singled out. I grew up in Georgia and as you were saying, you were one of the only brown kids.
Yeah, you just wanted to be, I did, just want to be like everyone else. So yes, when there's someone there, I actually commend you for being attracted to that at that time because if there's someone there who's being so themselves, that at that time would have terrified me.
Well, they might've sucked you in. Yeah, then it's like, then if I become friends with them, then everyone's going to be so aware of me.
I didn't want anyone to be aware of me. I remember, I think a few years before that, maybe when I was at middle school, my dad got me these bright red, like warmers.
When my dad bought them for me, I was like, I just didn't want to wear them. They're too bright.
Give me black so I can kind of blend in. And it was like, no, we can't return them now.
So I have to wear these things to school. And it was excruciating, right? I was trying to hide them with my coat.
I was like, no, no, I don't want to be wearing this. But then I kind of changed when I went to St.
Joseph's and when the headmistress said like a sea of red, I was like, hmm, I'm not sure about that. And I had the song of Another Brick in the Wall by Pink Floyd kind of playing, right? So I was getting quite attracted to these kind of things.
Like rebelliousness. I was more questioning.
Oh, that's right. Why do they want us to conform so much? Because I was so used to obeying, right, and doing and getting rewards for that.
I would see teachers doing things that I thought were unfair. So when I was at middle school, I saw one of my teachers beating up another kid.
And that was horrifying to me. And I remember meeting him in the corner shop that we had just down the road.
And I was really scared. But he was so nice and friendly to me.
And in my child's mind, I basically thought that was because he thought I was good. Yeah, you were good.
He only beats bad people. He only beats bad people.
And so I tried, like hell, never to be bad so I wouldn't get treated like the way that boy got treated. But it really unnerved me, right? It left something there as to why our teachers expected us to behave in this particular way.
And when I realized that people in authority can do things like that, they can be unethical, incompetent, and just plain stupid, then you start to question the people that are in charge maybe don't have our best interests in mind. The structure has put them there, not their character.
And when you kind of realize that, like, oh, the principal of the school has a title, doesn't mean that he's been vetted as a good person necessarily. There's a real dissonance when you recognize, oh, no, they're humans and who knows.
I'm friends with a ton of addict doctors and people will be shocked that doctors are addicts. I'm like, do you think they're different people? In some ways, it's excessive at medical school, right? And when I came to the US, it was fascinating when we were trying to find an apartment to rent.
As soon as you say, I'm a doctor. Yeah.
Some of the people I know that are completely wild and off track are doctors. Of course.
Yeah. There's a lot of stress release.
Yeah. If you want to have a good night partying, go out with some nurses or some doctors and it's on.
Oh yeah, we had some good nights. So I'm really, really interested in that as well.
I'm aware of that experiment. And then of course, the Stanford Prison one's very famous and people are kind of aware of that.
But your book starts out in a really wonderful and timely place. And you start by looking at the George Floyd case.
And there were elements of this I had no idea. And it's really something.

So you're not focusing on the asshole that had his knee on his neck. What's far more interesting is there are two rookies there.
One guy's on his third day, a black rookie, and then the white rookie is on his fourth day at work. That really haunted me because they were rookie officers.
and the guy with the knee on the neck was their training supervisor.

So that image of George Floyd is ingrained in lots of people's minds and it's horrific. Also, when I think about the rookie officers, I always think, what would I have done? Because they're obeying.
They're in a line of hierarchy. They've been trained to obey.
And even though in the manual, if your officer is asking you to do something unethical and things, you should defy or say something. It's impossible.
And people are saying, why did they do that? Why did they not say no? It's so impossible to do that in certain situations, especially if you haven't anticipated it, confronted it before, know how to react, practiced it rather than just intellectually knowing. And if we're inclined to judge them, we have the benefit of knowing the outcome of that, which is it resulted in a death.
Yes. I think their backstories are really compelling as well.
The white cop's grandfather was a homicide detective. His great-grandfather was the chief of police in Minneapolis.
The black rookie intentionally joined the police force to help change it from the inside. So you want to talk about the right values and intentions, these two have it in spades.
Yeah, and so often our actions just don't align with our values. And we see this time and time again.
And this is what I wanted to study in more depth. Why is that? We can sit here in our armchairs, right? And just say, oh, we wouldn't do that.
We would act in this particular way. But when you're actually in that situation, it's so difficult.
You're up against a lot of forces. Yeah.
So you end that description by saying, I'd like to think I would have done differently, but here's a situation I was in that I also would have thought I would have done differently. So talk about going to the hospital with chest pains.
That day I had this immense central chest pain and I hadn't felt any pain like this before. So I was worried about it and I thought I need to get this checked out.
I was fairly new to having moved to the US. And so I went to the emergency room and immediately there's loads of tests being done.
And they did an electrocardiogram, which was the main thing I was concerned about. Like, am I having a heart attack on that? And everything was normal, thank goodness.
And the pain was subsiding. It was going away.
So I thought, great, I'm going to be discharged. And then the doctor came in, she was kind of young and confident.
And she just said, oh, I'll need you to have a CT scan before you go. And I was like, why? And she was like, oh, we just want to make sure you don't have a pulmonary embolism.
PE is a blood clot in the lungs. And it has a specific type of pain.
And I worked for six months in respiratory medicine, which you call pulmonary here. And this type of pain when you have an embolism in the lung is what we call pleuritic chest pain.
It's a sharp pain. It catches your breath when you breathe in and breathe out.
And I didn't have that type of pain. I didn't want to have this CT scan she was talking about because it's on average 70 times the amount of radiation of an x-ray.
And even though it's still small, why have ionizing radiation, which can cause cancer many years into the future? Why take the risk, right? If it's unnecessary. Yeah.
So I had the knowledge in that situation and I should have said no. And yet I just couldn't say no.
And so I was then wheeled into the room with a CT scan and the technician. And I couldn't even say no then.
I would just ask questions in this polite way. Like, oh, it's not a lot of radiation, is it? Even though I knew because I wanted them to pick up on my discomfort and say, oh, do you not want this? Right.
And that didn't happen. Yeah.
So I ended up having this CT scan. Why couldn't I just say no in that situation? It was safe for me to say no.
It would have been effective. And yet something held me back.
The only reason I had it was because the doctor told me to. So here's the doctor in a safe situation.
She's even smiling. I can't say no.
And I'm a doctor myself. So what would I have done in this situation with George Floyd, with a police officer wearing a gun? That's how difficult this is.
It's terrifying when you think about it. And there was a survey of 1700 crew members of commercial airlines.
About half of them did not feel comfortable to speak up when they saw an error. Well, and then there's a really disturbing, not disturbing, actually, it's kind of encouraging that we can figure this out.
You can correlate these culturally, there are different fears of power. So then you have this cultural element on top of it, right? So there's this psychological process that I call insinuation anxiety that I uncovered in my experiments.
But the actual experience, I experienced it when I was having the CT scan. I knew this feeling for years and years.
The name for it only came after I started doing research in it. And insinuation anxiety is this aversive emotional state that we have when we believe that not complying with someone else will be a signal of distrust to that person.
So it basically insinuates that the other person is incompetent, biased, corrupt, and trustworthy in some way. And you don't want to give them that signal.
And so the co-pilots telling the pilots, you haven't observed this. You're doing something wrong here.
Like, I don't think we should do that. It's really difficult.
Yeah. And I see it in experiments in the hospital as well and surveys.
Nurses can't speak up when they see a colleague making an error for the same reason. Well, especially if they're in charge of you, if they're your boss or they're above you.
How can you? Even with physicians in this particular survey, it was less than 1% whether you had a supervisory role of the physician or not. Less than 1% could actually tell them if it was something about the physician's incompetence.
You don't want that. You want your co-pilots to speak up.
You want supervising physicians and nurses working with physicians to speak up if they see something going wrong because these life and death situations are huge. But even when it's not life and death, and sometimes you don't know, like as the rookie cops, right? They probably didn't know this was going to turn out to be an unfolding murder or a life or death type of situation.
But you don't want to end up in those situations because you're so wired to go along with it. You're so socialized to say, okay, I'm going to obey.
Let's start by defining defiance. I think that would be most helpful.
The Oxford English Dictionary definition of defiance is to challenge the power of someone else boldly and openly. And I shouldn't really disagree with that having been brought up in England.
I do. I think it's way too narrow.
And I think a better definition of defiance, considering everything that we've spoken about, is that to defy is simply to act in accordance with your own true values, your core values, when there's pressure to do otherwise. Ooh.
I like that because, you know, part of the social angst of it all is that we all have a relative amount of codependency as well. We're not prone to hurt people's feelings or call them incompetent or insinuate things.
But if it's just about you, when you depersonalize that and detach from that, it's just like, no, no, it's actually just living in accordance with my values. Really has nothing to do with that person.
I like that. That feels liberating.
And also values can involve other people too. Speaking up when you see somebody causing harm to someone else is really a communal act in a way.
So redefining, reframing defiance from this negative connotation to being a proactive positive force in society. Because if you think about it, every single act of consent and dissent and compliance, that creates the society that we live in.
Yeah, you say defiance is the exception and obedience is the rule. So let's talk about the forces at play.
What happens neurologically? So if you're socialized to comply from a young age, if you're rewarded for being compliant, and I know I was, you probably were, I don't know if you were. I was rewarded for being rebellious.
Really? I got lucky in that I have a mother that prized that. That's fascinating.
So for many of us. Yeah, I think most, I got very lucky.
That was encouraged, right? Yes. Can you say, I know what you're about to say.
Yeah, I don't know if now's the time, but we come from a family with a lot of trauma. We've been victimized a lot.
My mother's been victimized a lot. I was victimized a lot.
So our family was like, fuck this. We're never getting victimized again.
We've paid that price and we won't pay it again. That was the ethos in the house, born out of a lot of victimization, unfortunately, but I do like the result of it all.
One of the things that I really noticed in the people that I've interviewed is if you have seen your parents defy as well, it's so powerful. And I do have one or two moments where my parents did defy, even though they were compliant most of the time.
And that stayed with me. Way more than the times they were acquiesced.
Yes. And it changed my view of compliance and defiance being personality traits.
I realized this is a skill. We can choose to use it or not.
Because even the most compliant person, my mother, she does all the shopping, the groceries, looking after all the family. I had very neatly put her into the box of being compliant.
And one day when she was defiant, it just blew my mind. I was like, wow, that's so impressive.
She's actually really strong and she can be defiant when she needs to be. It could be harder for some of us than others, but it's also possible for everyone.
If I can do it with the upbringing I had, I think most people can learn how to defy. It's just, you have to learn that skill set.
You have to get out. So if you're talking about neurologically, I was rewarded for being compliant.
That's when the neural pathways start to form like obedience. It becomes our default.
We start equating obedience with being good, compliance with being good. You get good chemicals, you get dopamine.
The reward center is activated and it does change the format of your brain. Absolutely.
So we become what I call wire to comply, right? It becomes the default without thinking. Somebody says to do something, we go along and we do it.
And so that's really powerful socialization, the messages that we get to obey, to be polite, you know, don't make a scene, don't question authority, listen to them. And that makes a difference to the rest of our lives in a way and our default setting.
But if we think about situations where we learn how to defy, we need to really practice so we can change that default setting. The more that we practice, the more those other pathways start to strengthen.
For example, I have these five stages of defiance. So the first one, like usually when we're in a situation where we want to defy or we think we should, we feel some kind of tension.
So our body immediately tells us we don't think this is quite right. So I felt it with a CT scan.
I'm sure you've been in situations where you felt like, oh, I don't know about that. Yeah.
And so often we just ignore it. We think it's not worth our doubt.
Exactly. Is it worth it? You might feel anxiety or nervousness or dread, sweaty palms, fast beating heart, not in the stomach.
These are all signals. And we probably have our own signs, right? People will probably feel it differently.
Maybe for some people it's a headache. Maybe for some people it's their throat constricting.
Maybe it's feeling butterflies. So we all have a sign that comes up.
And then the second stage is to acknowledge that rather than disregard it, is to admit it to yourself, right? I'm feeling something. Yeah, because I think most people are stuck in a pattern of, so I'm feeling these things.
That's my actual cue to push through and ignore and compartmentalize and throw away. Yeah, avoid it.
And that's a shame because it's a warning sign. And if we actually listen to it, it could help us because we just need like, why am I feeling this way? What does it actually mean? I felt it with a CT scan and I was like, okay, but it actually got worse.
As I carried on having the CT scan, it didn't go away. Yeah, you didn't push it aside.
No, and so I felt it more and then I felt so much regret afterwards, like how easy would it have been for me to say no? Why couldn't I say no? Actually, it wasn't that easy, but what can I do to make sure I say no next time? And so feeling the tension, acknowledging it to yourself. And then stage three is the real critical stage is just vocalizing it to someone else.
And the reason that stage is so critical

is because if you tell someone else you're not comfortable with this, you've stated how you feel.

You can't then go back and rationalize to yourself, I was actually okay with it after all, right? You

know, it's fine. So once you've said that, all you have to do then is continue saying it.
And this was

the same in the Milgram experiment. So there were people, even though two thirds of the subjects went up to 450 dangerous shocks, and they were called the obedient subjects.
Not all of them did this willingly, right? Yes, I'm going to shock that person. Let's go.
I wish this thing went to 700. Let's get some memorization going.
Okay, I'll know this on his deathbed. Milgram called them the moral imbeciles, but they were groaning, nervous laughter.
They had these signs of tension. The nervous laughter, oh, I have that for sure.
And then I will smile. I have what a colleague of mine called the crocodile smile, is that as soon as I'm uncomfortable, I'll be like, yeah, okay.
Oh, that's funny. Imani, you'd call that fawning? Yeah.
It's an appeasement. Okay, I'm not a threat.
Exactly. I can't let my face betray me.
Yeah. I'm going to put in the most exaggerated version of my face.
That third stage, if you could say, I'm not comfortable with this or the people in the Milgram experiments, is he actually okay? If they had resisted four times, that was the experiment, there was four prompts, then the experiment would have ended. So you just then need to continue.
And stage four is that threat of noncompliance. I can't go through with it.
Can we call that a boundary? Like stating a boundary? Yeah, stage three, it's still in a subservient position. You're saying how you feel about it.
You haven't said you're not going to do it. You're just saying, I feel this way.
Yes. And then four is stating that you can't.
And then five is your final act of defiance. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
We are supported by Addy. Addy, that's that little pink pill, right? Oh, it sure is.
Addy is the number one doctor prescribed FDA approved treatment to get this, increase women's sex drive in certain premenopausal women who are bothered by low libido. This is very important.
Which brings up a really interesting conversation. What do women want out of sex? I mean, it's different from men, right? Well, I'm not a man, so I guess I can't really speak to that.
But for women, it's definitely about pleasure and orgasms, of course. But it's really more about the intimacy.
Like being really excited about the person. Yes, totally.
Yes. Be so into someone that you're like, let's do this.
I want this. That's a good feeling.
Well, apparently there's a lot of women out there who struggle with low libido, but there's not enough honest conversation about it. Yeah.
And women should know that there are options out there and we shouldn't be embarrassed to talk about it and get help. No way.
It's your life. You deserve this.
If you want to learn more and get back to feeling like yourself, go to Addy.com. That's A-D-D-Y-I.com.
Addy, or flibanserin, is for premenopausal women with acquired, generalized, hypoactive sexual desire disorder, HSDD, who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past, who have low sexual desire no matter the type of sexual activity, the situation, or the sexual partner. This low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to a medical or mental health problem, problems in the relationship, or medicine or other drug use.
Addy is not for use in children, men, or to enhance sexual performance. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is increased if you drink one to two standard alcohol drinks close in time to your Addy dose.
Wait at least two hours after drinking before taking Addy at bedtime. This risk increases if you take certain prescriptions, OTC, or herbal medications or have liver problems and can happen when you take Addy without alcohol or other medicines.
Do not take if you are allergic to any of Addy's ingredients. Allergic reactions may include hives, itching, or trouble breathing.
Sometimes serious sleeplessness can occur. Common side effects include dizziness, nausea, tiredness, difficulty falling asleep, or staying asleep, and dry mouth.
See full PI and medication guide, including box warning, at addy.com slash PI. We are supported by Allstate.
Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to check that you took your allergy pill first before you go to the botanical garden.
Like you know to make sure that cute coat you bought is waterproof first before you wear it outside on a rainy day. Or checking that a potential partner is an armchair.
Checking first is smart, so check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate.
Savings vary. Subject to terms, conditions, and availability.
Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by Quince.
Something about the weather warming up makes you want to get outside and go somewhere new, doesn't it? It's the spring travel itch. Oh my gosh, it's spring break is upon us.
Whether you're in school or not, you should still take a spring trip. Yes, I'm taking the girls to Hawaii.
If you've got spring break travel plans of your own, get where you're going in style by treating yourself to a first-class quality suitcase at an economy price with Quince. Quince has premium luggage options and durable duffel bags to carry it all.
We've told you before about how we love our apparel from Quince. So many cute things.
The cashmere, it's so soft. Beautiful sweater.
But also, I have these knives from Quince that are incredible. They do have really, really, really high-end products.
They're the greatest. So you can get ready to head out with your Quince luggage and stuff it with some fresh outfits from Quince and look amazing on your trip too.
They've got it all. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from Quince.
Go to Quince.com slash DAX for 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash DAX to get free shipping and 365 day returns.
Quince.com slash DAX. So understanding those stages, it might not be linear.
You might skip some stages. There are certain situations that I found that I find it easier to define and you can go from stage two to stage five.
And we can all find those places where, oh, this is actually more natural for me to do it. I need to add some of the stages in as more my direction to be better.
I go from tension to act of defiance. I'm going to tell you right now, so you can't go any further with it.
I think it also just depends on the situation because it depends on the punishment. On the consequences.
The consequence, exactly. Don't you think sometimes it isn't worth it? Right.
So there are consequences for being defiant, for sure. That's what holds us back a lot of the time.
So, you know, when we think about why don't we defy, why do we actively even resist defiance? Number one, immense pressure from other people to do what they want you to do, the insinuation, anxiety aspect, all those psychological processes. And then number two is actually we don't really understand what consent and dissent actually is.
We don't understand what defiance actually is. And I'll come back to that.
And then the third one is about once you want to defy and you understand that, you don't have the skill set to defy. So we need to learn it.
But the consequences of defiance, people always think about, it's going to affect this relationship. You know, I'm going to disrupt the harmony.
It might even cost me my job or might be some physical danger. So we do need to think about the consequences of defiance.
Like what type of situation is this? There's sort of two questions we ask. Is it safe for me to defy and will it be effective? But what we don't often think about are the consequences and the costs of complying because there's a lot of costs for continually complying with other people and putting aside your values.
If you're always bowing your head to someone else, disregarding your values, it really has an effect on you. Yeah, so that's where my personal willingness to do this is, is I have two kind of very seminal moments where I didn't defy and it was both destructive and painful.
But beyond the events, the shame and disappointment in myself was so intense for so long that for me, any other option was worth it. Like I just experienced such a level of regret and shame and in self-flagellation for not getting myself out of a couple different situations that for me, I can immediately go to what that feels like.
And so, yeah, this feels uncomfortable, but that feels like a 20.

I know what that is.

And I can do a very quick cost-benefit analysis for me.

It's very crystal clear.

It's like, I know what that other thing feels like.

So it's very easy for me.

I guess that's the benefit of those things.

If we reflect on what happened in that situation,

you in these particular incidents that happened,

me with a CT scan,

and then think about what factors enable our defiance and what makes it harder for us. Understanding that is really key.
But anticipating, even when we think about all the big heroes that defied and had huge moments, like Rosa Parks saying, no, I'm not going to move on the bus. There were lots of compliance moments before that moment.
And so we shouldn't have so much shame, but that rumination is actually really helpful to think about what is it I wish I had done in that situation? Because if we can then visualize it, if we can anticipate it, then that takes away the surprise, right? So the next time I was asked to go for some more radiation that I didn't need, I wasn't as surprised. I was anticipating it.
I had practiced what I wish I would have said, and then I was able to say it. And we could probably get in quickly to the biology of that, which is interesting, which is if you anticipate it versus it comes up on you in a flash and you're not prepared, you've not thought this through at all, you don't have an executive game plan.
And now you're just scared and frazzled and you're in a part of your brain that doesn't do well with that. So yeah, the benefit of not being taken off guard is half of the battle perhaps.
Oh yeah, absolutely. That anticipation is so key.
There's this famous saying that's often attributed to Bruce Lee, but it's actually a Greek poet that said like, under duress, we don't rise to the level of our expectations.

We fall to our level of training. And so that training aspect is so key.
And I didn't realize it because it does change those neural pathways. So anticipating and we can anticipate more than we actually think.
Sometimes we're caught off. But I know because we've experienced situations before when at the workplace, a particular colleague is going to say something inappropriate or they're going to make a sexist remark.
We can kind of predict things that might happen so we can start anticipating. If you've been out to a work dinner with a co-worker who has five other times made a sexist joke, pretty good odds that's coming your way again.
Then we can visualize it and practice it. If you don't have like that behavioral training of actually practicing, if it's just the intellectual part, it's not going to make a difference.
So you need to actually practice it. And this presentation workshop I went to, I just love the phrase that they use.
If you practice, your ears get used to hearing it and your mouth gets used to saying those words. That's really useful to know that that's what makes a difference.

Can we go back to the forces at play? Because I want to talk about the social one. Of course, I want to interject kind of my anthropological lens onto it.
I think it could reduce some of the shame people experience from not being able to rise to that occasion. I think the primary hardwired, evolved state we inherited is we are a social primate.
300,000 years ago, if you weren't obedient, you got kicked out. And 300,000 years ago to not be with your group is death.
And that's real evolution. That's actually how your brain's still functioning.
So give yourself a little bit of a break. Although it is menial, it's, you know, the person at Starbucks or whatever it is, your body doesn't know that your body thinks to be excluded from my group right now is death.
So you have a very over-exaggerated response to what our modern world is. But let's just grant everyone that we're not designed to be defiant.
Even the insinuation anxiety feeling, I've said it's an aversive state. It's uncomfortable for a reason because your defiance might be causing harm to someone else.
Or you. Yeah.
It's there for a reason that somebody is expecting something of you. What does it mean? Right.
So I think understanding that too, sort of naming it and knowing that we have two kind of ideal selves, especially in America, we have this ideal independent self. We want to act on our agency.
We want to do what we think is right. But we also have this interdependent self, which is that we want to remain in harmony with everybody around us.
And there's two sort of ideals like Hazel Marcus and Shinobu Kittiana talk about these ideal selves. We can't ever achieve one state or the other state and they're there for a reason.
It wouldn't be great to achieve either state exclusively. Exactly.
And so we do need to think about that, but we also need to hold dear to ourselves what are our values. But if you're at home going, I'm a spineless piece of shit, no, you're a social primate.
And then you have to kind of transcend some of the stuff that is not useful anymore or that is vestigial and doesn't serve you. I want to maybe acknowledge it's not across the board.
It's not totally equal for every group of people. And I think we should acknowledge that.
It's easier for me to be defiant than either of you. That's what I was going to say earlier when I said, oh, I think you should say it.
That's what I thought you were going to say. Some people have a little bit of a leg up doing it with less consequences.
Yeah, I got a double whammy. Like my sister still will fight anybody over nothing.
She came from the same culture as I did. So she got that leg up.
But then I have also the leg up of being 6'2 and male over her. Right.
It's what I call the defiance hierarchy. Some people are allowed to defy, even rewarded for it.
And others, they have more costs. There's more severe consequences.
There's more backlash for being defiant. And it's interesting that the people that are in that category, which is anything from sort of the dominant norm, the tall white male, anything that deviates from that group, you actually need to be defiant more often because you're expected to be more compliant.
The paradox is you're going to need to be defiant more and you're going to be more harshly punished. Yeah, it's so unfair.
The gift that keeps on giving. Sometimes I just get so tired.
Don't you just get exhausted of having to just constantly be that person? It can be exhausting. You have those extra burdens that you carry.
But not to put a silver lining on it, you get all the upside of the extra challenge. So you get a skill set.
My trauma gave me something too. So it's negative, but also you have an empathy probably that other people don't have.
It's a suite of behaviors and thoughts. I mean, it'd be interesting what people might choose between those things.
It's one where I often describe as being on a balance beam for some people. There's only a narrow set of behaviors that are possible for you to do without being punished.
But sometimes you can get to firmer ground where you can find this is now safe and effective for me to define and find places where that is accepted. What's the difference between compliance and consent? So compliance is something that we just go along with someone else.
It's usually externally imposed or default. We're not really thinking about it.
We kind of slide into it. I like the word reactive in there as well.
It's kind of put on you and you're reacting all of a sudden. Exactly.
Consent. I take the definition of informed consent in medicine and I apply it to the other decisions that we make in life, which I find really useful.
There's five elements that are required for informed consent. So first of all, this capacity that we have the mental capacity to make a decision.
So we're not under the influence of drugs or alcohol or we're not sick. And then knowledge.
So we need to know about the situation, have full information about that situation. And third, understanding of that.
Do we understand the risks, the benefits, the alternatives? Then number four, do we have the freedom to say no? In some situations, we don't have the freedom to say no. It might be too risky.
Your life might be on the line in some situations. Well, it could be structurally defined.
You could be in the military. Exactly.
You might not have the freedom to say no. Another one is if you're a black guy and you're stopped at a traffic stop, right? That's not the place to definey.
So freedom to say no. And then if you have those four things, the fifth element is your considered authorization of an informed consent.
And if you want to say no, informed refusal. I think that's one of the trickier zones.
My personal experience with this was my father was dying of small cell carcinoma and it had spread everywhere. And we had done all the treatments and it was clearly towards the end.
We knew the time horizon was three months to begin with. And at the very end of this experience, the oncologist comes on to say he'd like to do brain radiation.
And I said, is it worse to die of brain cancer than the lung cancer, the bone cancer everywhere it's at? And he said, well, yeah, it could be worse. And I said, okay, it just feels like it's another treatment and we're towards the end.
And it's going to be one of these cancers that gets them. And then I asked my dad and he had been letting me make all these decisions.
But of course I was running them all by him. And I said, do you want to do this brain radiation thing? And he said, I do.
And I said, OK, I don't think it's going to, you know. But ultimately, it was his cancer and his.
So I backed away, did it. The result was nothing positive.
And it severely impacted his cognition. And I'm so resentful at that whole experience.
Now, I at least have the distance of he made the decision. I did say I think it's a bad idea.
You know, I'm not carrying around a ton about it, but it pissed me off. And again, I think, A, I'm totally up for a confrontation.
I'm in the best situation possible for this. Still didn't go my way.
But yeah, your average person, there's a doctor telling them this is a good idea. And what are you to do? And we do have trust in our doctors.
And it would be a shame if that disappeared, right? That element of public trust. But there's also a lot being written on end of life treatment and how aggressive it can be.
But it's really difficult. Again, it's an ideal that can never be fully attained in medicine and elsewhere.
Now, here's a great example of where the anticipation is helpful. So like Atua Gawande would advise you have an end of life plan.
What do you want to do in this last few months? Do you want to go out with your kids and have ice cream? What's quality of life for you? Because if you just show up and you get bombarded with all this information you don't understand, you're going to react and you don't really know. But that's a good use of an hour of your life to kind of map out what you want that to be at the end.
I think if people want to have that conversation and then even as I told Grande talks about,

people prefer different types of care, right?

Somebody wants the paternalistic advice.

Just tell me what to do and I'll follow it. Other people want more of a guided, informed, shared decision making and the doctor to be

more of a coach.

I want a buffet of options that are explained to me and then I want to pick.

Yeah, some people find that really hard. And overwhelming.
Yeah. What's a true yes? So true yes is consent.
So having those five elements there would be your true yes or a true no is the same. The informed confusal is just having those five elements.
But sometimes you have those five factors there, but you decide to actually do what I call conscious compliance. So you consciously comply because the cost might be too big or this is not the right time to do it.
And because, as you said, it's exhausting. So you need to choose, is this situation going against my values? Otherwise, we'd be defying every day.
We wouldn't get anything done. And we need to really choose what situations are going against our values that this is worth me speaking up and saying something about.
I couldn't help but think of some situations where I felt like I don't know if defiance is productive to the mission. Do we want a battalion of soldiers

thinking we should go over the left flank

and they think we should go over the right?

Are there not some implicit situations

where it's like, no?

I interviewed a few of my students

that had been in the military,

which was really fascinating to hear their stories.

And in fact, one of the first ones,

and I remember it really well

because we were speaking on Zoom on a Sunday afternoon.

I was calling Matthew. He told me about when he went into the military and he did it because he grew up with 9-11, so seared into his memory.
And he wanted to prove that he's an American, he's a patriot, and he was deployed to Iraq. And his best friend got killed in the first few months.
And there was an incident where they were on some nighttime mission and he's like, nothing usually happens at nighttime, but there was this flash and then a grenade going off that was too close for comfort. And they immediately started opening fire.
Some people went off in his squad and they came back with four prisoners. One of them, Matthew had, and had to look after.
And this person was just screaming out in Arabic and his supervisor said to him, he's talking too much. He's screaming, shut him up.
And Matthew said, what should I do? And he was like, oh, it's simple. He did it in the mouth.
And so he looked at the man and there was blood coming out from his nose into his beard. So he hit him and the man didn't stop talking.
And his sergeant said, he's not stopped. Hit him again.
Hit him in the stomach. And Matthew just looked at me and he just said, and that's what I did.
And then later on, he told me that he found out that these weren't insurgents at all. They were young teenage boys.
Wrong place at the wrong time. They were 15 or 16 years old.
He couldn't understand what they were saying. And he felt really bad about it.
And he said in that instant, he just trusted. He had no option.
The next time they were on some kind of mission and they stopped and they basically formed like a circle, what they do in war, right? And what he told me is that you're not supposed to get out and just spray and pray. You have to have a target, otherwise you can hurt civilians.
And he said, but they just got out and they did spray and pray. And in that moment, he did not do that.
He kind of turned around and looked at the desert behind him. And later on, his superior said to him, what were you doing? And he said, oh, I was just providing security.
I was looking at providing cover. And he said that was the only thing he could think of for not doing it.
But it actually was because his feelings were getting really complicated about whether he was doing the right thing or not. And he didn't describe his actions as defiant.
He even said they were kind of cowardly. If he had actually said what he felt, he would have gone to military prison.
And he said, and maybe they'd be right. But that one incident that he said was half conscious, he did start becoming a little bit more defiant.
So I call that quiet defiance where you're not actively saying no to someone else, but you're not going against what you think is the right thing to do. You're not betraying your own ethics in service of this other person.
And so later on, then he became less quietly defiant. There was another nighttime mission that he thought was way unsafe.
He involved going out at the nighttime with goggles, very close to a cliff edge. And he went to see his superior and he just said, I don't think we should do this.
It's far too dangerous. And his superior was just like, shut up.
Do as I say. Are you disobeying me? He's like, no, but I'm adamantly against the idea.
And of course, the mission went ahead. People came back after half an hour.
It didn't work out. It was too unsafe.
But he wasn't rewarded for that. He was basically punished.
He didn't get his promotion, but he said it was the right thing to do. And he became a little bit more comfortable with sort of saying those things.
But yes, in the military, I hear time and time again from my students that have been there, it's yes, yes, yes. And one of them said, you are trained to do, not to think.
And it's very complicated, right? So you're talking to a guy who's seemingly intelligent and thoughtful. And then there's also a dipshit there who shouldn't be doing a ton of thinking.
So it's a very complex situation. It's not clean.
Yeah. So in war, that type of compliance is very helpful on the battlefield, for sure.
I was thinking about something much more benign, which is a movie set. So what is a common conflict between an actor and a director, and both have very legitimate points of view, is the director will go to the actor and say, OK, let's do it again.
But this time, don't be so sad. And then the actor will say, that's what my character would be in this moment.
My character would be this sad. And now the director's juggling the entire movie, not the moment, not the scene.
If you cry in this scene, your next scene, we need you crying at a 10. For the arc of your character, I need this to not be what is true to you right now because we have to service this broader thing.
So that's like a very benign example. That doesn't feel too much like a values.
Values driven to the truth. Oh, I think so.
If you've dedicated your life to being an actor and you went to Juilliard and your commitment is to tell the truth every time you open your mouth, that's your North Star. Yeah, I think there's many situations where it is complicated.
That's why we struggle with it too. If it was that simple, then we would get it right every single time and we don't.
I've had it on a set early in my comedic career where you would still make homophobic jokes. That was standard.
And I remember getting in a huge fight with one of my directors like, I'm not saying that. There's a 12-year-old kid going to watch this who's gay in Michigan.
That makes a ton of sense. That to me is like, that's so value driven.
Not as an actor, because that's an identity we place on ourselves. It's an occupation.
A value of I refuse to take someone down. That makes a ton of sense.
And I think that is fully worth defying. I think that's definitely worth, I'm with you.
You have some good historic and contemporary kind of examples in the book. Is there any that you would like to share with us that are your favorites? So when I said earlier on that there's some stories of my parents defined that have really stayed with me.
One of my mom is one that really, I think, was transformative. So I was about seven or eight and I was walking back from the grocery store with my mom.
And it was quite a long walk back and we had this rickety shopping cart. And we were rolling that back home and we decided to take a shortcut through what you call in Yorkshire a Snicket, which is just a narrow alleyway, right? You gave it that adorable name, yeah.
Snicket, Yahtzee, what were you

of your name?

Swatty.

Swatty.

Swatty,

yeah.

When I went to

elementary school,

I was not supposed

to go through

that Snicket.

I'm signing.

Oh,

see,

you were

testing.

I just realized

that.

It was brewing

the whole time.

It was there.

But anyway,

mom and I,

we went through

the Snicket and we were confronted by about seven or eight teenage boys. And they blocked our path and they started shouting out some stuff to us, like some racist comments, go back home.
We're trying to. We're on our way right now.
Shitty carriage through the Snicket. You're stopping us.
That would have been a good answer. Yeah, I would have.
But my reaction was instant, which is what you had described before, right? Immediately, eyes down, averted. All I wanted to do was not look at them and maneuver my way through and get home as fast as I could.
And my mom, she's petite. She's smaller than me now.
She was taller than me at the time. But she's like 4'10".
She had like her hair very neatly plaited back and single braid at the back. And I had thought of her as completely compliant person.
And she did something that really surprised me that day. She put the shopping cart up vertical and she put one hand on her hip and she looked at them and she said, what do you mean? My fear was going up at this point.
So I grabbed her arm even tighter and I started whispering to her. I was like, come on, Ma.
And I wanted to be the compliant person in that. And she shook me off, right? She was like, no.
And she looked at them again and she said, what do you mean? They stared at her, she stared at them. And then she said, oh, you think you're big, tough boys, right? Big, strong boys.
And she started telling them off in broken English. Oh, wow.
And they like, just looking at each other thinking, what's going on here? And one of them just said, let's go. And they just dispersed.
And I was like, what happened? My mom grabbed the card and she walked as fast as she could through that snicker. I never thought the day would come that she would tell off a group of boys on the street in that way.
There's something sad and beautiful about it, which is people will do that for their children. Because even before the social primate evolution.
Protection, responsibility, and people do, like I can defy for my son so much easier than I can defy for myself. And isn't that sad? That's the sad part.
I also think there's something beautiful about having responsibility for someone else. I do too.
What's heartbreaking to me is that you can't advocate for yourself. But you can tap into that.
That's a tool even. Imagine this is being said to your.
Exactly. To a loved one.
What would you do in that situation? I say that to my son at times when he gets stressed about things, like what advice would you give a loved one? What would you tell someone who's in ninth grade right now how to handle a situation? But what that really taught me was that defiance is a skill set. It's a practice.
It's not a personality. And even though compliance might be our default, it's not our destiny.
So we can change. I had seen her come home several times and she would be muttering away.
So I'm pretty sure she had seen those boys before and not said anything. But now I was with her and she showed me that.
And even though it might have changed her, because I do think defiance changes your brain, how you react, it also changes the people that observe it because that had a ripple effect on me and made me feel like we can all be defiant if we want to be. And that does give quite a bit of hope.
One part I like about your book too is whether it's explicit or not, you do it by example. It's also a good call to monitor yourself when you're doing it to other people.
So you have this example where you want your five-year-old to see the Olympic torch pass. Yes, we were in London and we were on our way to see the flame that they hold.
And it was like, oh, it's a once in a lifetime experience. And he's like not impressed with this at all.
And he just wouldn't walk there. And he sat down on the pavement.
And I was like, no, come on. I was like pulling his arm and trying to pick him up.
And I could only get a few steps. He was heavy at that point.
I was like, no, I can't carry you. And we just completely missed the whole thing.
And we went home. And he's just not realizing this moment in history that I have now missed forever.
And I said to him, why can't you be good? And that kept me up at night. I was like, why did I say that when that's what I learned, right? This whole obedience equals good and defiance equals bad.
And here I was just repeating it. That really took me back to, why is it so strong? Even when he was a baby, I would have relatives asking me, is he good? It's a baby.
Right. There's no such thing.
No, he's bad. We got a bad one.
And what they mean is like, does he sleep? Is he crying? Yeah, does he cry? Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if love mine.
They're really comfortable. God, the right pair of shoes can make all the difference when it comes to getting out and working out.
I'm doing some of my sprints in them. Uh-huh.
Oh, just total comfort on my knees. Also great design.
Yeah, very stylish. The Glycerin 22 is for anyone whose feet crave a cushioned experience.
The wide platform plus the tuned heel and forefoot help your foot land and transition from heel to toe smoothly and steadily. Okay, this is smart engineering.
Listen to this. The sole of these shoes has a next-gen nitrogen-infused foam with larger cells in the heel to provide plush landings.
And then there are smaller cells in the forefoot to invite responsive toe-offs. That's a fancy way of saying they thought of everything here and these shoes perform great and feel even better.
So whether you're running, hitting the gym, or just want to feel maximum comfort and stability as you live your active lifestyle, give Brooks a try. Learn more at brooksrunning.com.
We are supported by Squarespace, our old friend friend Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online.
We love Squarespace. We have our Armchair Expert website, which was built by Squarespace.
And it's gorgeous. It's a great, great product.
If you want to build a website that looks as snazzy as the Armchair Expert site, Squarespace makes it simple. With their collection of cutting-edge design tools, you can build a bespoke online presence that perfectly fits your brand or business.

Start with Blueprint AI, Squarespace's AI-enhanced website builder, to get a fully custom website in just a few steps.

Basic info about your industry goals and personality will generate premium quality content and personalized design recommendations.

Squarespace also offers a complete library of website templates with options for every use and category. You can make a gorgeous website without any previous experience.
Check out squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
That's Squarespace.com and promo code DAX to get started today. We are supported by BetterHelp.
Let's talk numbers. Traditional in-person therapy can cost anywhere from $100 to $250 per session, which adds up fast.
But with BetterHelp Online Therapy, you can save on average up to 50% per session. And you know, people don't have any problem investing into their physical health, and I sure would like to see them have that same willingness to invest in their mental health.
With BetterHelp, you pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, saving you big on cost and time. Therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury.
With online therapy, you get quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it, and now it's within reach.
With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It's convenient too.

You can join a session with the click of a button helping you fit therapy into your busy life.

Plus, switch therapists at any time. Your well-being is worth it.
Visit betterhelp.com slash dax today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterP dot com slash Dax.
It's amazing what we equate with being good, which is not being a bother to someone else at all. Well, yeah, you say it really explicitly and beautifully.
You say to be good is for him to do what I want. I want him to sleep through the night.
I want him to eat on a schedule. Those are my wants.
And sometimes that's how we feel in organizations, right? When we work, managers love the yes man or the yes woman. Do as I say, don't question it.
And we then just sort of narrow our vision to how well we are pleasing the boss rather than the wider. Like what is it we're actually doing that has a value to the world? What kind of tools other than anticipating is a good one and kind of modeling what you're going to get into, but are there some other things that you could recommend? One of the major things that was really crucial to sort of changing how I thought about defiance is getting rid of some of the myths that defiance has to be aggressive, loud.
You have to have a larger than life personality. You got to be me.
You got to, right? Tattooed up ideally, too much muscle, let's go. Monica and I are never gonna be you.
Don't rule that out, I can put you on a program. We can find our own way, right? We can be defiant in a way that's unique to us.
So understanding that defiance isn't just for the brave or the extraordinary, right? It's available and it's necessary for all of us. I think that's one mindset shift that we can really all use and understand.
And then the other is what I call the defiance compass, which I think is very useful, which is when we're faced with a situation and we're trying to decide what to do, we have that tension, then we take the pause and we try to understand. These three questions came from James Marsh, who's a sociologist, but I've sort of adapted them to be not just three questions that we ask implicitly for every decision, but to put them in a circle because I think it is a circular thing.
So the first question is, who am I? And that's really connecting with your values. So if you aspire to be someone who's fair, compassionate, has integrity, that's what you really need to think about.
That's who you are, because that's really important. If you've not found that out, spend some time doing that, because people that clarify their values are more likely to act in alignment with them.
And also there's research showing that it reduces your stress and cortisol levels if you actually know what your values are. So really know who am I? You can ask yourself that.
And then the second question, so that's internal. Then you go external.
What type of situation is this? Is it safe and effective for me to define? And then the last question is with these particular values, fair, full of integrity, all those things. What does a person like me do in a situation like this? If you believe you're one type of person, but you're never acting in that way, you want to sort of start thinking about whether that really is who you are or not.
And I've found those three questions really powerful in terms of knowing this is what I would like to do. Really tapping into our aspirational selves.
I want to decrease that gap between the intention, what we think we'll do in a situation and how we actually act. Also that first question, I think all of us would go like, I know who I am, but then we haven't actually listed it because I remember I got judoed by a therapist like 20 years ago because I was laying out this list of grievances I had about my father.
And on this last trip, this happened, he smashed my truck,

he did this and that. And I said, you know, at this point, I just don't know that I really need

to have a relationship with him. I just don't think I want to do this anymore.
And he said,

you're totally entitled to make that decision with this list of things you've just given me.

But very simply, do you think you're the type of person that doesn't talk to their dad? And I was like, oh, fuck, I don't think I'm the type of person that wouldn't talk to their dad. That's very incongruous with this thing I want to do.
But yeah, in a very simple way, do I think I'm the type of person that doesn't talk to their dad? I don't think I'm that type of person. I don't want to be that type of person.
So I guess we're just going to have to do a lot harder work to figure out how I am not that person, yet I don't come out on the wrong end of all these interactions. Right, and that's fascinating.
I was telling him this thinking he'll sign off on this and I'm never talking to my dad. I've worked it all out in my head.
But you wouldn't have felt good about it in the long run. No, it was the simplest question I wouldn't have asked myself.
So powerful. I also like the last question because it sort of depersonalizes it.
If you're saying, what does a person like that do in this situation? It's not like, what am I going to do in this situation? It's what does someone that holds those values do? You can remove yourself. And I think that's really helpful.
And in experiment after experiment, I've seen people say their one thing and then behave in a different way. So anything that helps us reduce that gap.
Gosh, I wonder if they repeated that experiment. And before going in the shocks, they made them write down their values.
I wonder if that would have impacted it. The people that could defy, they're really fascinating.
So, I mean, I told you the sort of basic setup of the Milgram experiment, but when you look at all the different deviations that they had, that's where I find the work really fascinating and the people that defied, what was it about them that they defied? And many of them, it was because of responsibility. So one was a professor of the Old Testament.
So values were there and very high on that. So even though he was stuttering and things, when they said the experiment requires you to go on, he kind of asked, does it? Like maybe if we're in Russia, but not here.
So he was able to stand up to that because he'd done so much thinking about those types of values and humanity and not harming another person. And then the other person that really stands out for me was an engineer that had the knowledge of how powerful these shocks are.
And he lived through World War II. And so he was fascinated by this afterwards.
And he said he just felt really bad that he went as far as he did before he stopped because he's like, if you throw the responsibility onto someone else and just say you were taking orders, that's really quite a cowardly thing to do. You're the one that's causing the shocks to someone else.
And I know what kind of harm those shocks can do. And there was another participant, a woman that said the same thing.
I don't want to be responsible for causing harm to another person. So I do think that responsibility element is really powerful when we think about what does a person like me do in a situation.
There's so many variables though, as well, because even engineers, they over-index on disagreeability on the personality test, right? So it's like you start with, there's been a filtration. Really? Yes.
I'm just saying that because my son wants to be an engineer. Yes, and your son, when you tell him to not play his Xbox, he walks right in there and plays his Xbox.
It's in your book. And he won't go to the huge thing.
And not be bothered by the Olympics. Of course he wants to be an engineer.
Well, my dad always says this. Engineers are hyper-focused on seeing problems.
That's the whole point of the job because a building will collapse if they don't do that. So it is looking at the world with a critical lens, which I do think can come with some defiance.
Yeah, I think sort of the critical thinking element of it is key, of knowing actually when to defy or not to defy. Have they ever done versions of this test? So my assumption about the electrocution test is that the participants were probably students? No, they weren't actually.
Oh, I guess you just listed some people that weren't students. Yeah, members of the community came in.
They had different races and he ran a bunch of experiments, but there was one experiment that was all women. And in that experiment, same rates of compliance as the other ones.
There wasn't a gender difference, surprisingly. Right.
So what I was curious about as we're sitting here talking and learning about it is I wonder if they looked at age. I have some intuition that as you get older and older and older, you're more likely to be defiant.
Yeah. Maybe because you have more knowledge.
You have more knowledge. You've lived through more stuff.
You see the racket. You care a little less.
You've achieved your social status. You have cultural capital.
You have raised your kids. Like anecdotally, talk to some old people.
They'll tell you like it is. They're not seventh graders.
What's everyone doing? They've somehow transcended that through life experience. I think that would be interesting.
Those rookie officers, if they had that situation again, wouldn't do it. So how can we learn from the experience of other people? Yeah.
And that's really fascinating because I was speaking to another rookie officer and he was trained during the time that the incident with George Floyd took place. And he thought about it a lot.
And so when it came to a situation that he was on this night run with his partner and a few others, and they wanted to go and search a garage for stolen bicycles, he said, no, we can't just go in there without permission of the homeowner to go. And they were like, no, we're just going to go in.
And he said, no. So he went and knocked on the door and it was about four o'clock in the morning, no answer at all.
But the car was there and the neighbor said, oh, I think he's there. He's just asleep.
And so he was the only one as this rookie officer that refused to go in. And the reason he did that wasn't because he was brave or anything like that.
He said he was motivated by fear because he saw what happened to the rookie officers. And in his mind, he went to the worst case scenario that we're going to go in there and we don't have any standing to go in there.
There's no blood. There's nobody screaming.
No probable cause. And so he knew the law and he'd just been trained.
And then he was with police officers 20 years older than him saying, you were telling us what to do. Eff it, we're going in.
He refused to go in because he thought the homeowner's going to come out with a gun.

Something terrible is going to happen.

Over some bicycles.

So he said no.

And homeowner came down and actually thanked them and everything.

So everything was fine.

And the ride back to the station for him was just awful.

And within an hour, he was called in to see his supervisor.

And it was a bit like, read this, you got it wrong.

And he was like, no, with all due respect, I knew that we didn't have any standing and we shouldn't have gone in. And he said to me, you know, his childhood stutter came back, but he knew in this job, it was going to be difficult and he was going to be asked to do some things that weren't right.
And because he'd seen the George Floyd thing. Anticipating.
Anticipating. Wow.
He thought, I'm not going to be that police officer. But he was ostracized for a bit.
He said the whole thing went around the station, even though he was right. But he ultimately got transferred to another unit where he said they were younger officers, but they had more understanding of the law.
And he's very hopeful and very optimistic about a new era of policing. So that was great to hear.
But it also shows that learning from other people, I think would be wonderful. Well, it's a wonderful book.
I so appreciate you coming in. This has been wonderful.
Unfortunately, I need a book that says just fucking get with the program. I need like the opposite book, but I still very much appreciate it.
And I live and love so many people that have a really hard time with it. And I can see the amount of weight on them.
I'm thinking, is there a thing as being too defiant? Because I'm not talking about defiance as a knee-jerk reaction to defiance, but more considered defiance. So maybe that's what you need.
As opposed to just get with the program. She's saying like, instead.
I think what I could do is give a lot more benefit of the doubt to people around me and not assume from my past that everyone's trying to get one over on me. It's all my own baggage.
Healthy amount of skepticism, but not too much. Yeah, I have too much.
The book is called Defy the Power of No in a World that Demands Yes. I think so many people will be very empowered by this.
And I think you make it very simple to follow how you could start advocating for yourself and staying true to your values. I appreciate that.
It's a great topic. It's important.
It is. Thanks so much for coming.
Thank you. This is wonderful.
Hi there, this is Hermi and Hermi. And if you like that, you're going to love the fact check with Miss Monica.
Steady, are you ready? What's going on? You don't know that song, do you, Soul to Soul? You sing it a lot. I do, but you don't know the source, do you? Um, no.
Does it ring a bell when I sing it? It doesn't, right? No, I don't know it. I didn't grow up on it yeah it was hot and then it disappeared one hit wonder keep on moving don't stop they have two two hit wonder does that ring a bell keep on moving don't stop no okay really nice really nice i guess maybe neo soul dance music 92 92 i was five i wasn't listening to music then you You weren't going out dancing much when you were five? Not that I know of.
You may notice I'm feeling a little, um, energized because I just blew past one of my goals and I'm just feeling incredible. What was it? Well, I got these bike riding goals.
Yep. I'm going to back up.
I had an issue with my bike that I love. It's so beautiful.
The chain got sucked into the sprocket. It bent the sprocket.
Now it's having a really hard time staying in gear. So when I ride it and I'm putting a lot of force on it, it's hopping gear.
It's rough. Okay.
And I bought it used a while ago and I decided on Sunday, perhaps. Sustainable.
Sustainable. Yeah.
Yeah. That's a good job.
Yes. Well, then you'll like where this story goes.
So then I was like, okay, I've proven that I'm into this. I need to get a bike with clip-ons and the whole nine and really commit.
Yeah. Looked online, was going to go to Pasadena, found a bike store.
I was looking at all the options. They looked really funny if you've ever priced a bike.
These bikes are imperceptibly the same. One is $15,000 and one is $1,900.
This is like sweaters. And I'm like, what? I can't see what's different.
I mean, presumably one's carbon fiber and all this shit. So I'm looking at it and I'm already going through my game plan.
Like I'm going to get there and go, listen, Buster. I know you think I'm here to buy an $18,000 bike, but I'm not.
I don't care. I just want to be able

to change gears. You had your sword in your belt.
Yeah, I was all fired up to go to battle with a salesman. And then I thought, okay, my friend Jeff McFarlane, who I love.
Shout out Jeff McFarlane. He's helped me navigate many things in life.
He's not too dissimilar than me. He loves cars.
He loves things. You don't love

things. I'm going to go ahead and

say that. You love cars.
He loves things.

You don't love things.

I'm going to go ahead and say that.

You love cars, but I would never classify you. And motorcycles.

He loves motorcycles and he loves cars.

Motor stuff.

But I don't think it would be fair for you to say you like things.

Right.

I don't have.

Whatever.

The point is.

I'm trying to be nice and say that.

Thank you so much.

I appreciate you defending me to myself. But Jeff competed in Ironmans, which there's a huge biking portion.
Yeah. Knowing him, I just crossed my mind.
I'm like, I bet he has a lot of bikes. Oh, yeah.
Because you have all these different applications, right? Yeah. And also, I know that he is downsized.
He is 61 now. He's just been appointed a judge he has been a lawyer oh my god yeah it's really exciting congratulations yeah i'm so happy for him um so he's gonna be an la superior judge which is really cool that's awesome um i'm gonna go to the swearing in but at any rate oh cool i know he's like he's like he's getting older his kids have moved out and he's, he moved into a smaller place.
And then I thought, I wonder if he wants to get rid of bikes.

So hit him up.

Hey, by any chance, do you have any bikes that you want to get rid of?

And he said, as a matter of fact, I do.

Come over.

So I go over and I go into his garage and there's three hanging on the wall.

What colors?

Oh man.

A couple that are like black carbon fiber.

And then this one that is like silver and orange. Ooh, flames.
Not flames, but still silver and orange. And as I'm looking at them, I'm realizing I'm in the same situation I was with the bike shop, which is I know these are to compete in Ironman.
Yeah. And I know what these price tags can be sure so once I look at my go I go Jeff I realize this is a disaster because I was going to spend basically blank on a new bike and I I don't want to try to rip you off yeah and he said dude the bikes are 10 years old I don't know how else to get rid of him he's like I'll give you one for 2,500 bucks which is what was going to be my budget for it to be honest okay and I was.
He's like, I'll give you one for 2,500 bucks, which is what was going to be my budget for it,

to be honest.

Okay.

And I was like, okay, well, I'll give you more.

The bike was hand built.

It's a crazy.

He's like, everywhere you go,

people are going to want to talk to you about this bike.

Is it the flames one or is it a black one?

No, no, I got the flames one.

Okay.

All to say, I have this insanely beautiful hand built bike. Wow.
I don't even want to say what it costs brand new. It was like a $22,000 bicycle.
Oh my God. So the thrill I had of getting a bike that expensive that I myself would have never bought.
Yes. Just put a pep in your step.
Yes. So I'm so excited about the bike And I come home and now I need to buy the shoes that go into the clip-on pedals.

Sure.

So I ordered those.

They're coming on Saturday, but I'm too impatient today.

I'm like, I wonder if I can ride it with the clip-on pedals, but just with normal shoes.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

I just can't wait, basically.

Yeah.

So this morning, that's why I asked if we could record a little later.

Oh, okay, yeah.

I had a hunch I might do this.

So I went all the way up to the observatory. Then I went on a road that's closed.
You can bike on it. Up to the Hollywood sign.
Uh-huh. Down the backside of the mountain into Burbank.
Oh, wow. To travel town.
Wow. Then all the way through Griffith Park, past the zoo.
Wow. Then out onto Los Feliz Boulevard, past your house.
I looked over as I was pedaling. I mean, that was the end of, I was like an hour and 45 minutes in at that point.
Holy shit. And so I was a little,

I looked over and then I was like, I was in a state by that point. Wow.
That's so long.

Yeah. So I did that.
You're like a bonafide biker now, bicyclist.

Now I have to, cause I have this absurdly special bicycle that I got for such a deal.

I understand this can be the chicken or the egg with items. This is a lot like fashion.
Sure, sure. Like you, sometimes you go on the RealReal, great website, not sponsored yet.
Yeah. And there's like a very fancy purse, let's say a purse.
Yeah. That you know is outrageously expensive.
Like it was originally 10 grand or something. Yes.
And then it's there for one grand. One grand.
And you start doing this whole like, oh my God, obviously I have to get it. You think you're making $9,000.
Like when I left, I was like, oh my God, I just made $18,000. Yeah, shopping mats.
See, you get it. You get it.
I finally got it. And then you have the purse and it's like, well, I have the purse, so I guess I got to get the scarf so that I'm this person.
I'm this person now that carries this bag, so now the rest of me has to fit. You have to live up to the item.
Yeah. It's a slippery slope.
Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you remember when my therapist, Mark, had said that.
Often you change to accomplish something, and other times you get something that will force you to grow into it or you'll lose it. And I thought that was interesting.
I like that. That's true, yeah.
Okay, so that was really exciting. And then I got back, and then I lifted weights.
Wow. Because I'm going to Detroit, and I have to look as swole as possible.
Oh. Because that's where all the guys that wanted to kick my ass live.
You think you're going to run into them? I hope so, because I'm ready.

Oh, my God.

I've already had a fantasy,

because, you know,

Kid Rock picked a fight with me one time.

Yeah.

Years ago.

And he was with two buddies.

And I did stand up to him,

and then it got kind of mitigated

or de-escalated.

Yeah.

And I was like,

oh, wow, you know,

he'll likely be at this game.

Oh, you see?

Yeah, he's from Detroit.

But does he go to all of them? I don't know enough about them. Yeah, me neither.
But it did cross my mind. You gotta be ready.
Who knows? You bump into Kid Rock, he takes another run at you. Okay.
And I'm ready. I like that.
Okay. You're allowed.
Yes, this is like Kristen is only green lit. Yeah.
I've only got a couple green lights where fighting's okay.

Sure.

Okay.

I'm fine with that. It's a bummer, actually, because I love Kid Rock's music, and I wish he wasn't.
Oh, yeah. There's some great stuff.
You love Bawa Tabah? No, I don't love that one, but he likes Southern rock, and I grew up loving Southern rock. I know you're trying to find middle ground, but let's be his.
No. Bawatutaba was on TRL number one for so long.
And I, I hated it so much. I can imagine it was a very scary.
Yeah. It's so, it's, I mean.
It's a white dude with long blonde hair and a trans am. Yeah.
He hated me then and he hates me now. But yeah.
And that song was just so, it was so aggressive. Like, it's exactly.
But I think the Lions are bringing people together because Aaron told me that, of course I was talking to Aaron about this. Yeah.
Is he ready? Is he pumping? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He knows what, yeah.
And he said, oh yeah, now Kid Rock and Eminem are friends. They've become friends.
And I think because of the Lions. Oh.
And Kid Rock had to say that. Eminem's pretty woke.
Right. Aaron informed me that they're friends officially and that Kid Rock said, we don't have the same political views, but we have found common ground as friends.
So I think Lions are bringing people together. That's nice.
I mean, sports will do that. Sports have that power.
They do. Okay.
I have some more updates. Okay.
I did something really cool last night. Okay.
I saw on Instagram, I don't even know how I saw this. Yeah.
It was a video of a man meeting a guy in the 7-Eleven parking lot to receive a pizza. Okay.
And then the guy opened it up and it was the most gorgeous pizza. And then he took a bite and he's like a pizza reviewer.
And he said, yeah, it's the best pizza in LA. Wait, it's like black market.
Yes. The guy makes them in his house.
No, I want this. I'll turn you on to him.
So I see that. So you have to order through only through Instagram.
There's like no number to call. So I DM the guy.
The guy is incredibly sweet. He's got a sourdough he uses.
And I was like, okay. And you ate it.
If I am ever to eat bread, it is very, it's best to eat sourdough because it has the lowest gluten content. Got it.
In fact, I think you can almost make sourdough without any gluten. And it has no brewer's yeast, which is also some people like eric is not gluten insensitive but he can't have brewer's yeast which is it's in everything with gluten virtually but not sourdough so i was like okay i love the idea of meeting in a parking lot and a guy opens his trunk it's very my drug deals back from the old days so i arranged this whole thing i was supposed to to get on Wednesday the night the fires broke out.
Oh. That was my first appointment.
Got it. And mind you, it's at 6, and I got to drive to Sunland, which for people who don't know, driving to Sunland.
He doesn't drive to the east side? No, no. Oh, wow.
He's got a dude that works for him that drives a very short distance from wherever he's making them. Well, they got to stay hot? Yeah, they're piping hot.
And he tells you to take a bite of, and he wants you to take a bite of a very specific pie. Oh, my God.
So I got four, the four different varieties he makes. And he said, take a bite of the hot piggy immediately.
Hot piggy? Yeah. What's on it? It's pepperoni with, I think, a little bit of hot honey.
Oh, Monica. So.
Oh, my God, that sounds so good. Okay, so this kind of worked out brilliantly.
Lincoln had a soccer game in Westlake. Okay.
Which is virtually like driving to Santa Barbara. Westlake is very far away.
God, okay. So we left at two, took an hour to get to the game.
Yesterday. Yesterday.
Okay. Then, watch the game, I think that's an hour and a half, get back in the car at 430, And now we got to get to Sunland by six, which is not going to be an issue.
I think it's only supposed to take an hour and nine minutes. It said on my.
Oh, this is miserable. Oh my God.
I think I'd got pizza reward. Side note, all of Simi Valley didn't have any power.
Still. Well, so yes, I thought still.
But this morning, not even this morning,

seven minutes ago, I was in the shower.

My hair is still damp, if you don't believe me.

I didn't.

I couldn't tell because your hat.

I didn't look like you didn't believe me.

That's why I had to show you.

Thank you.

I was like, God, maybe they actually turned the power off intentionally

because it was the last day of the Santa Anas.

That would have been smart.

So I don't know if they had lost their power

or they preemptively turned it off, which would have been very bright. Couldn't help but notice because it's a strip mall after strip mall.
Nothing's open. Yeah.
Anyways, Lincoln's got to pee. I'm telling you way too much shit.
Try to stop at a Starbucks. Someone blew up both Starbucks bathrooms.
Both were inoperable from duty. Oh.
So then they had to go to the grocery store. I thought you meant a bomb.
I mean, they painted the place. Oh, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew.
Okay. So a whole saga to get to the toilet in this strip mall in Sunland.
Then I was getting nervous. Oh, my God, we're going to be late.
I thought I was going to get there a half hour early. The girls were going to get impatient.
I was going to have to put them in an Uber to send them home while I waited for the pizza. But as it turned out, it took so long to find a bathroom.
We rolled in at like 5.59. The appointment was at 6.
6 o'clock, guy in a black car pulls up. I get out.
Fucking cash. Pay.
Get these four pies. Get in the truck.
I did exactly as he instructed. First one was- Did you bring your gun? I didn't have my gun.

Just in case.

I got to tell you, it was,

as I said, it was very reminiscent of the old days

in a very good and healthy

way. It's like, I'm meeting a guy in a parking

lot that I don't know. I'm going to pay cash.

And then something really good

is on the other end. You're still getting that

high, but it's healthy. It's a high that

comes with no cost. Does your voice change

when you talk to them?

I'm here for more pieces like that. No, like more

Thank you. is on the other end.
You're still getting that high, but it's healthy. It's a high that it comes with no cost.

Does your voice change when you talk to them?

Hi, I'm here for more pieces like that.

No, like more like

you're trying to be scary.

Yeah, I'll be there at six.

And it was all on text.

Oh, wow, okay.

No, I was very nice to the guy.

There was another guy there

that was also picking up some pies,

which is really funny.

It's like me,

two dudes and me and the drug dealer

at the same time.

That's funny.

Oh, wow.

Get in the car,

open it up right away. It's so beautiful.
The pepperonis are so tiny. Oh, I love those tiny ones.
They've dished in the cooking process and there's oil in them. And there's, I can see the honey and I take a bite and by God, it's fucking so good.
Oh, you got a picture of it? Oh, baby. Wow, that looks so yummy.
Oh, my God, I'm starving. I got the girls that pineapple Hawaiian, which was outrageous.
I don't even like Hawaiian pizza, but that was my second favorite. We got umami hot pepper pizza, which was a million peppers, and it was very good.
And then the hot piggy. I said umami.
And then, yeah. Is that their cheese? Is that just like a cheese one? That's a great question what's on the upper far right.
It looks kind of like. A margarita.
Yeah. I should ask him about that because I'm going back.
The crust looks so good. It looks so crispy.
It's great. Ooh, I'm going to have to go.
This looks delicious. So the car ride home is long from Sunland at 6 o'clock on a weekday.

Yeah.

And I ate, well, Kristen had two pieces of hot piggy.

I ate the remainder.

So I ate three quarters of the hot piggy.

Yeah.

And I ate a third of the Hawaiian.

Okay.

And then I had a slice of hot pepper and a slice of umami. So I had like a pizza and a half or two pizzas.
Wow. That's a lot of pizza.
No wonder I tackled that hill today and kept going. It's probably because you had all the energy, all those carbs.
Fuel, glycogen. So that was really fun.
I really liked it. That was a fun experience for the whole family being in that

parking lot and watching the guy rolling. Very fun.
Yeah. Yum.
A lot of updates. Are you watching Bad Sisters season two? No, I didn't watch the first season.
Oh, you didn't? I started it. It seems so good.
I'm sure it's fantastic. I'm sure it's fantastic.
What happened? You know, I sometimes don't like... British content?

Yeah. Okay.
I guess this is

Irish in this content. I know, but it's fantastic.
What happened? You know, I sometimes don't like... British content? Yeah.
Okay. I guess this is Irish in this content.
I know, but it's the same. Yeah.
It gives me the feeling. They would not like that, but yes.
As far as the feeling I get, it's the same. Uh-huh.
And, um... Can you articulate the feeling? No, it's...
The feeling. Yeah.
I've talked about it a lot on here.

The only person who really gets it, gets it

is Anthony. He can always

tell me, he's like, that's going to give you the

feeling. Don't watch it.
And then I watch it and it

is exactly right. He like knows.

Yeah. And it's just

really hard to explain. There are a few things that I

know that trigger it. Suicide stuff

often triggers it. Okay.

I don't think there's any suicide, but continue. Okay, but British and I guess now Irish stuff often does, which is weird because I love London so much.
I love it. Yeah.
I don't get the feeling when I'm there. It's all like media.
It's movies and TV and stuff. And then the first time I identified this feeling was Wonder Years when I was young.
Oh, that's the origin of the feeling. The OF.
Original feeling. I don't know.
I just feel, it just makes me feel really like really uncomfortable. And Anthony says things that are overly earnest.
Did you even like Fleabag though? I did. I loved it.
So some things make their way through. I don't know.
It's hard. It's hard, but I started Bad Sisters and it gave me the feeling.
So I had to stop. Okay.
I'm making a new mocktail that my friend Maddie taught me about. It's called, it doesn't have a name, but it is seltzer water.
I've been using Perrier and a little bit of 100% tangerine juice. Oh, is that hard to find? 100% tangerine juice? The brand is Natalie's Shoutout.
Oh, shoutout, Rob. And it isn't that hard to find.
I found it at Lazy Acres. Oh, great.
Okay. A hundred percent.
Yeah.

Is it rich?

Yeah.

It's not sweet at all.

Oh, it's not?

No.

It's very citrusy.

Oh, okay.

Crisp, clean.

Nice.

Oh, yeah.

It's nice.

Maddie invented it.

I need to give her-

Is this seltzer and a hundred percent tangerine juice?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

What ratio?

I just do a splash of the juice.

Okay.

And mainly the drink, the seltzer. And how many of those will you have? Ice cubes? No ice cubes.
Okay. But I do freeze the glass.
Okay, great. You eventize it.
I do. I eventize it.
And is it satiating your cocktail urge? It's helping. Okay, great.
It's helping. Yeah, what's been interesting is, so I think we talked about it, I'm trying not to drink Monday through Thursday.
Yeah. Then the world got really turned upside down.
Uh-huh, topsy-turvy. Yeah, and I said, fuck that.
So I drank last week, I think Wednesday and Thursday. Saturday and Sunday.
Okay. I think, I forget all the days, but I definitely didn't stick to my thing.
Right. But what has been interesting, and you told me to do this in my journal, I've been journaling, to like, it's a good place to tally and mark.
Oh, yes, yes. So I've been doing that.
And it is in my head when I'm about to drink, like, well, tomorrow I'm going to have to put zero. Or you have to write one, day one.
Well, I. You'll go day zero.
I do zero. Okay.
Which is, it's like, back it, nothing, you know? Right. And I think about that.
And even just the thinking about it for a second is nice. It makes me really make the decision.
Like, do I really want it? Yes. I think it makes you just acknowledge there'll be a tomorrow.
Yeah. I will have to account for this decision.
Yes. Yeah.
And sometimes the answer is, yeah. Right.
I don't care if I have to put a zero. Who cares? I love writing zeros.
Yeah. Zeros are fun.
And other times I'm like, I don't really, I don't really need it. I don't really want it.
So overall, even though I've broken my goal, I am drinking much less. Okay, great.
Which is helpful. I'm going to make a small pitch for not zero.
Oh, okay. Okay.
Because it is the morning. Yeah.
And it is day one of being sober. I see.
It's not day zero. Day zero doesn't exist.
Right. So day one, this is the date, and this is day one.
And I'm not going to drink today. This is a one.
Uh-huh. Interesting.
See, now, if you write zero in some weird way, there's almost nothing to lose because if you drink later that night, but when you write one, you're also committing to this is day one of not drinking. Does that make any sense mentally? Yeah, it does.
It's a commitment. It does.
Because on this date, I'll have had one day of not drinking, which is true. I didn't drink that day.
That's day one. In the morning, though.
Yeah, so you got to make it through the night. Right.
But it's true so long as you don't drink that night. Yeah, I think that makes sense.
And then it's a little more positive. Yeah, I guess for me it's because I'm not trying to be sober.
Right. I'm trying to get to day four, really.
I see what you're doing. I'm mainly just like— You're saying I have zero days of sobriety in the morning.
Yeah. It feels a little—I don't know why.
It feels a little, like, intense to call it sobriety. Also because that's not really what I'm— I mean, sober.
I know. What do you want to say? Clean, no drinky-poo.
Yeah Yeah. Like you have one day of no drink.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I didn't drink last night. Right.
That's what it is. It's like, yeah, I did drink.
So I'm at zero days as opposed to one day that I didn't successfully. Anyway, what else? Anything else? Let's see.
Are you reading any new books? I'm listening to We Contain Multitudes, Ed Young's book. As I told you, I was listening to Mense World over and over again.
And then I decided to go and try the first book. I don't even know if it was his first, but the previous bestseller.
Oh, it's mind-blowing. Oh, God.
It's all about microbes and your micro... Biome?

Biome. Thank you.
Microbiome. Wow.
He's so brilliant. Your body has so many...
It says nine pounds. Did I already tell you this? Mm-mm.
The average person has nine pounds of microbes in them. And there are many animals that couldn't even exist without the microbes they would die right the microbes perform all these tasks that they really they've evolved with the microbes and they they themselves can't even exist then there's all this weird stuff where they raise these rats completely free of microbes which is almost impossible but they're born into a hermetically sealed case.
And they don't ever accumulate any microbes. And they can eat however they want and they don't gain any weight.
Yeah. Doesn't matter.
That's wild. And then they introduce different microbes.
And then they'll eat way less food and gain way more weight. Huh.
Yeah. Weird.
And then all the health stuff. Like, there's so much health stuff.
Yeah. stuff yeah and then talks about you know this kind of scary proposition that you're supposed to get all as we know all these microbes from your mom's vagina as you come out right and then the other huge source is breast milk right and a third of children in the u.s are now born cesarean section so they're not getting the vaginal microbes.
Right. And then if they also don't breastfeed, they're ripe for some issues.
A lot of allergies and a lot of different things. Yeah.
Yeah, when I went to my acupuncturist, that's the first thing she asked. About your gut health? No, if I was born vaginally.
That was her first question. Yeah, I was.
And you were breastfed? Yes. I was not.
Yeah, you were. And I have an autoimmune disease and allergies.
You were given carol syrup. That's right, and heroin.
Don't forget the heroin. Not to get controversial, but I do, I feel like I'm pro-animal testing.
Oh, yeah. We gotta be.
I know, but people hate that. Yeah, some people hate it.
Some people. Like, how will we learn anything? Exactly.
If you subtract animal testing from our history. I think we just lost a lot of listeners, but I think it's true.
No, I don't think so. I don't think so.
I think it's a very fringe group that do not want mice to be tested on. Yeah.
Now, a lot of us— I'm a mouse, so I can say that. Yes.
It's kind of preposterous to think you should test on humans instead of mice. I know.
Which you can—they procreate so quickly. Their lifetime is very short anyways, blah, blah, blah.
Now, I think it's a sliding scale. I think probably most of us don't want to see chimpanzees tested on.
Right. And I guess it's a scale of what you're testing.
Like, I know like the beauty products stuff, that's bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I do think that's bad. Yeah.
But like learning about our bodies. Oh, if we can figure out what microbes would eliminate obesity before you'd ever even need Ozebic or would eliminate allergies or eliminate—of course we must do that.
I know. Yeah.
I don't think any rational person has that point of view. Yeah.
People have all kinds of points of view. They do.
They do. And they're entitled.
We have a country that has free speech, so you can think anything you want. That's right.
It's great.

I'm re-watching Sex and the City, and it's been a long time since I watched it. And it is funny.
There are some things that are very ahead of its time, like some of the things they're talking about. And I don't know.
It's been really interesting to watch. But also, separately, they have two episodes where they're in L.A.
and it is so funny

because they're like

pointing out the differences

between But also, separately, they have two episodes where they're in L.A. Uh-huh.

And it is so funny because they're, like, pointing out the differences between L.A. and New York.
Yeah. And it's so cliche.
Yeah, New Yorkers love to do this. It starts with Annie Hall.
Yeah, exactly. They're being so extreme.
Yeah. But then I had to recognize, like, they make a joke about this guy.
Miranda comes and visits her old friend who now lives in LA,

writes for a TV show and used to live in New York. And he's really positive.
And she's like, what happened to you? We used to hate on everybody. And he was like, yeah, I just am so much, I am so much happier here.
I know. Somehow people, they distrust that or it's like fake.
Yeah. You know the big thing on the East Coast is calling someone fake.
It's a huge thing. Remember like in Jersey Shore, to be fake is as low as you can get.
I don't even hear people in LA ever say that as a pejorative or a put down. I mean, I say that about people in some sector of the South.
Oh. Would it be more...
Okay. Do you think it'd be more accurate to say, like, insincere? Aren't you really saying, like, a lot of the hospitality feels obligatory and insincere? Yeah.
Yeah. But that's just another word for it.
I guess. Fake is a total character assassination.
It's like they're fake.

Yeah.

They're a fake.

I think that's what they mean.

But anyway, it was just so funny because he was like, I'm so much happier here.

And then he took her to this like macrobiotic sandwich shop, you know, someplace that I was like, oh, that does sound good.

Okay.

And then he was like, let's go on a hike. And that was like the culmination of the joke.
Okay, right, right. Let's go on a hike.
And I was like, yeah, I'm here. I'm indoctrinated.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny.
Yeah. We're into health.
We're into being positive. We are into health.
We're into feeling good and eating good and exercise. And that's true.
I mean, I don't know why anyone would be mad about it. Exactly.
I can't really lock into the why that's frustrating for people. I think like the Woody Allen joke, if I haven't remembered correctly, is like in LA, their definition of culture is the right to turn on red.
Which is great. Yeah.
I like it. Yeah.
We have no history. I mean.
We do, but I know. It's not fair to say to the indigenous folks or the Spanish missionaries that were here.
Right. But, you know, we don't have New York's deep cultural history.
Yeah, I suppose. But once we got in the mix, boy, we really started shaping it.
I was thinking about when we did our first fact check of the year while you were gone and we were doing it virtual and I was saying that I was, this is the first time I was calling LA home and not Georgia home, even though we realized I was calling everything home. Right.
But in light of what's been happening the past couple weeks, I've been thinking about that. Right.
Like maybe leaving? No, God no. I think a lot of people are debating whether they're going to leave or not.
I understand why, but I don't feel like that at all. I feel more, I feel like doubled down.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, great.
And that I love it here and I'm so happy to be here and grateful. And it is funny.
This is not to disparage any other place and how they handle situations. But in a lot of places when bad things happen, there's a lot of requests for prayers and— For God to intervene? Yes.
And for, you know, meeting at the church and X, Y, and Z. And that's great.
Like, I have nothing against that. We didn't have that.
I didn't see—I saw maybe, like, one person say it. Well, John Mayer said he's going to say a prayer.
Yeah, and he said, I don't do this. But today— yeah, exactly.
And like some people I do know are religious and were, but overall the city, no one was saying that. No one thought the solution was going to come from a problem.
No, but what is so heartening is like, I've never seen a city mobilize so fast. No one was asking for prayers.
They were asking for meet here, give this, do this. It was instruction and it was specific.
It was action. And I really was like, yeah, that's in alignment with me.
So anyway, all right. Okay, let's get factual.

Let's get facts.

Oh, one last thing.

Many people in the comments suggested this,

and I want to tell them we had already done it.

So a lot of people were like, invite Nikki Glazer on.

I just want to say we, the second after we had that long talk

on the previous fact check, we were like,

we should definitely invite her.

Yeah.

So we have invited her.

You even set it on. Oh, I did? Yeah, you did, and then we did like, we should definitely invite her.
Yeah. So we have invited her.
You even set, you set it on.

Oh, I did?

Yeah, you did.

And then we did.

And we're trying.

Yeah, yeah.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

We are supported by Skims.

Skims has been a longtime sponsor, which has been incredible because I would be wearing them, whether they're partnering with us or not. Don't tell them I said that.
But they are one of my favorite brands. The quality is next level.
It's so good. What have you been wearing lately? Oh my goodness.
Pretty much everything from the Fits Everybody collection. I like to do a big clean out of my underwear every now and then.

Sure.

And now that I found the Fits Everybody thong from Skims, it's just all I wear. It's comfy.
It's so comfy. And it's cute.
You need both in an underpinning. In an unmentionable.
Yes. I really love it.
It's a great product. Shop Skim's best intimates, including the Fits Everybody collection and more at skims.com and Skim stores.
After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and select our show in the drop-down menu that follows.
Okay, so this is for Sunita. Okay.
Which I just thought was a great episode. I love her message.
I experienced it. Ooh, let's hear.
I just experienced it. Yeah, I was getting blood drawn, and the nurse basically told me that the doctor that they work for forced them to get a

flu shot and they didn't want it. And I thought, yeah, here's a nurse who is very qualified opinion.
It's not like they're ignorant. They've probably made some analysis and probably she would have liked to have said no somehow.
Yeah, it's really tricky. And especially in that situation with her, I don't know the details of how that works, but he's her superior, I would assume.
Employer, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so hard.
It's so much easier said than done to stick up for yourself when your job is on the line or when your employer is upset with you. Or, I mean, there's just things that honestly put you into fight or flight.
Yeah. And it's intense.
I find myself, I don't want to say it's hard because it's not. And again, I'm the beneficiary of having not said no and it haunted me for the rest of my life.
So that's a huge gift for me for the rest of my life. I just don't, you know.
And I have so many options. Yeah.
Like if this person is pressuring me to get this shot, I don't want it. Like I have options.
I can go to another doctor. I can't, you know, I'm gifted with a with a ton of luxuries.
And so, and even me, I'm like, okay, we got to say no and we got to hold our ground. Like, you know, it's hard.
It's really hard. I too have been thinking a lot about what, what are my true beliefs and values? Kind of what she said.
She's, think about your values, then ask yourself, what would a person with these values do? Yes. Not what I do, but really force yourself to sort of be objective about who you want to be and what actions match that.
And, um, and yeah, I think it's good to know the parts of yourself that you're unwilling to forego for peace. Really? I mean, that's what it, that, that's what it can come down to and that sucks.
But at the end of the day, all you have is you and those beliefs and those values. So you really just can't let people take them.
Also a good moment to check your own pushiness as a person. When you're in a position, what people do with their kids all the time.
I watch kids, people force their kids to do these things. Yeah.
That really don't have much of a significant impact on their life. It's how they did it.
Mm-hmm. And they would like it done that way.
Yeah. It's very tempting.
Yeah. But, you know, and probably, you know, a lot of people are bosses.
Yeah. And it's very tempting and easy to want to keep pushing.
So I think it's also a call to every one of us who— Are in charge. When we have that role that we check our own pushiness.
Yeah. Also for people in charge to think about why, like why there's a pushiness or why you're forcing the nurse to get the thing.
Like there can, I think that's also an element of control and maybe there's a lack, there's a feeling of lack of control. And so there's a grasping for it.
I think a lot of people feel this way. And I have felt this way as a parent many times.
It's like, you feel like if you let this go, it's going to be a domino effect. And then you'll not have any say in anything.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. It can be kind of misleading in that moment.
Totally. So yeah, I thought this was a great, great episode.
Okay. She was talking about visas, the types of visas I wanted to go through.
because I was sort of dumb enough to think that you could just like ask to come here and it would take a while, but that like you could. Yeah, yeah.
And you can't, you have to have a reason to come. You have the student visa, tourist visa, business visa, transit visa.
So that's a temporary visa that allows travelers to pass through a country for a limited time. Okay.
Work visa, immigrant visa, a visa for people traveling to a country to live permanently. So I don't really know.
Is that kind of like? That's kind of what I thought. Yeah, like I just like it there.
I would like to live there. Yeah, but I don't think we have that here in the United States.
Really? I don't think so. We have to because we have tons of legal Latino immigrants that didn't get here on an H-1B or a student.
They probably got a work visa. Maybe not H-1B, but there's different kinds.
I think H-1B is specific to tech maybe. Sure.
Let me see actually, because now I'm curious. Okay.
Oh God, so many news articles. How would you feel about one that was just hot? Hot? If you're hot, you can come? Yeah, like of course, if you're incredibly intelligent and have a skillset that would benefit the country, come on in.
We want that clearly. Yeah.
What about hot? If there was one that was just like, you're a smoke show. I'm for that.
Let's keep this place full of gorgeous people. If you're single.
That's a great point, yeah. If you're single and hot.
Because then that way you could- Procreate. You could procreate and you could lift.
That's right. Bring people up.
The whole, yeah, look of Americans. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, like the girl who was half Indian. Right, right, right.
Yeah, we need more of that. Right.
Okay, H-1B status is available to a person who has been offered a temporary professional position by a U.S. employer.
Bachelor's degree or higher in a related area is the minimum educational level. Okay, so it's not tech.
It's just any with the degree.

I guess that duh, because my dad and my grandpa got H-1Bs.

But in engineering, we were not?

That would be tech, but my grandpa was a professor.

Okay, all right.

Although he came on a student visa, I guess.

And just stuck around.

Got a job as a professor.

Yeah.

Then got a work visa.

Yeah, exactly. Then became a citizen.
Then became very patriotic. He did.
Then became xenophobic. No, never.
He did become very patriotic. Yeah, I bet.
Okay, anyway, so you can't just come here. Right.
You can't see I like the weather and that's why I'm going. Yeah.
Swatty. Swatty is the nerdy term.
It's the term for nerd in British. And it started as an army slang, meaning sweaty.
I think it's a variation of sweaty, but slang referring to hard work. And we're nervous about it because it sounds very much like a derivative of swastika.

And twat.

And twat.

Yeah.

But also we think

a swatty potty

would be a very cool...

Invention.

Invention.

For the Brits.

For the Brits.

For the Brainiac Brits.

Yeah.

Stanford Prison Experiment.

The guy's name is...

Fuck, I wanted to...

William Randolph.

I wanted to see

if I could remember it.

Yeah. And I can't, again.
It's a test. Yeah, that's okay.
Fuck. He's not relevant.
The takeaway is what's relevant. No, don't say that about him.
Philip Zimbardo. Zimbardo.
Zimbardo, which sounds like a football coach. It sounds exactly like Anthony's last name.
And a football coach. And a football coach.
And a Cubs pitcher, Carlos Zambrano. Okay, so between the three of us, why don't we remember it? I've already declared I'm not even committed to memory.
I'm committed to knowing about the Stanford prison experiment and what the result was. That's important for me to know.
Wouldn't you be sad if everyone remembered Armchair Expert, but they didn't know it was you? That's fine. Again, that's fine.

Really?

Yeah.

I guess you're dead, so who cares?

I'm dead.

Rob, can you join me in a pursuit to remember his name?

Yeah, yeah.

Maybe we can write it somewhere

and touch it every time we leave.

No, we have to memorize it.

Yeah, we'll see it, though,

and commit it to memory every time we pass this.

I'm going to have to ask you guys sporadically.

Randomly, yeah.ly. Yeah, okay.

Alright. He recently died.

Just recently?

October 2024.

Whoa!

Whoa. I feel bad for saying

he's dead. I mean, he is, but

just recently. You feel bad for being right?

I almost was wrong. You feel bad a lot.

You feel bad for assuming he was

dead?

I care. Charles Dunn.
What's the guy's name? Dunning-Gruger? He's been to podcast again. Christopher Lydon.
Christopher Lydon. Oh.
All right. Okay.
The Greek poet that said, under duress, we don't rise to the level of our expectations.

We fall to the level of our training.

That's attributed to Bruce Lee.

But it was a Greek poet, Archalachis.

I don't know if that's how you say it, but.

And you're not going to try to memorize that, right?

No.

See, this is interesting.

It's very arbitrary.

Fine, I will.

Archalachis.

I'll remember everything. I mean, I like to remember everything I can.
Yeah. If I have to choose whether I know an individual's name or I know a concept, I'm going to definitely favor the concept.
Because that's going to help me process the reality. Someone's name's not going to help me do anything.
Yes. Other than seem well read at a party.
I think I'm, I think overall I'm pretty good at names. It is impressive.
Thank you. I am often impressed that you remember someone's name.
Actually, more than I'm impressed, I'm just grateful because I'm trying to reference the person and I don't, I don't have their name. Yeah.
Hung Van Gogh. That's a name I know.
Oh, wow. Who's he? He's a makeup artist.
Oh, Hung Van Gogh. Yeah, he's great.
I watch his videos. All right.
Do engineers over-index on disagreeability? According to research and common perception, engineers are often considered to be the lower end of the agreeableness, geez, agreeableness spectrum on personality tests,

meaning they may sometimes be perceived as disagreeable due to their strong focus on logic, data, and problem solving,

which can sometimes lead to a more direct or critical approach

when discussing ideas or solutions.

Do you think that's kind of just a long way to say

because they're generally right?

Yeah, no, sometimes, yeah.

I think that's really what it is.

It says, however, this... Do you think that's kind of just a long way to say because they're generally right? Yeah, no.

Sometimes, yeah.

I think that's really what it is.

It says, however, this is not always the case.

An individual personality is very greatly within the engineering field.

A, I had to say that.

I'm glad they put that caveat there.

Yeah, me too.

I'd hate for anyone to.

I do think, though, there is, my dad and I have talked about this because he.

He's disagreeable.

He's disagreeable. he's my stepfather

both stepfathers

that were engineers

were highly

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a

he's a he's a he's a he's about this because he he's disagreeable he's disagreeable he's my stepfather both stepfathers that were engineers were highly disagreeable yeah he is picking apart everything yeah and he's looking for a flaw exactly his job is literally to look for a structural flaw yes or things will collapse and that will be on his shoulders people will die so. So he and I, we talked about this once.

I was like, is it chicken or the egg?

Were you drawn to the career because that's your personality or has that job made you

like this?

We don't really know.

I think egg.

I do too.

He thinks B.

Well, yeah, it implies more growth on his end.

Well, but actually.

It's more flattering.

We like to think we, we achieve this thing.

Not that we were just

born with it all of us you know your dad's not unique no i know well he is he i've been kind of like what are you doing because the sim's been rowdy uh-huh but that's all part of it yeah it's there's no highs without the lows that's true and then yesterday i was doing connections uh-huh And one of the answers was Big, Mr. Big from Sex and the City as I was watching it.

Right. So he was trying to make up for it a little bit.
Yeah, just saying, hang in there. I'm still watching.
Still here. Yeah.
Anyway, yeah, he, if you talk to my uncles, they, my dad doesn't really let them talk too much about this, but they all these stories about my dad I think he was more like my brother no kidding really I don't believe that well they knew him when I didn't are they older? that's why I don't trust you. He's the youngest.
Right. Older brothers, you can't trust their opinion.
Well. Because they see them as a baby and incompetent and all these things.
And all they're really seen is an age difference, but they don't realize they're seeing an age difference. Well, that's a little bit fair, but there's also personality traits that come with being the youngest.
Don't start with little brother stuff. Little brother syndrome.
I do not have little brother syndrome. They have a version of his personality that I don't know, that I never saw.
And I think that's interesting and sort of lends itself to maybe he did grow into a lot of these traits. Or they just got sharpened, probably.
Yeah. I'm going to go along with whatever.
I just, I really feel in my heart he's exactly who he was. Yeah, that's probably right.
That's probably right. My dad was always a salesman.
Yeah. My dad was born to sell shit.
Yeah. He didn't grow out.
I mean, he got better at it. Right.
But he was a salesman. He wanted an extra slice of cake.
He figured out how. You know, he he's charming.
He got what he needed. Yeah, and I guess you can tell down the line, right? Like, I have a lot of those qualities that he has, and I'm not an engineer, so I probably got it from him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which means it's just genetics.
And you're disagreeable, yeah. Yeah.
I'm doing what Sunita tells me to do. You're already at the finish line for that.
Can you think of times that, though, you did go along with stuff? Yes. Okay.
Yes. I think I spent a lot of my life not going along with, I mean, going along with stuff.
Because you divine yourself as being someone that never succumbed to peer pressure. Exactly.
That is true, but I was walking a line, right? Because I also, I wasn't going to at a dinner table with my friends whose parents had much different political views than me or even just things I thought were wrong. Yeah.
If I'm at a dinner with them, I'm not going to say, oh, actually, I disagree. Like, I'm going to agree.
Right. So I can maintain that friendship.
So you can get out of there. Yeah.
Kind of like you, who you for different reasons, much different reasons, you feel like you are rewarded for speaking up for yourself. Yeah.
And I just as an ethos, I'd rather have been wrong and I'd rather be the victim of a bad decision so long as it's my decision. Yeah.
And some people don't feel that way, which is totally fair. Yeah.
And I just do. I would rather, again, if I'm going to die in a car, I better be holding the steering wheel.
Right.

No fucking way am I letting, you know.

Yeah.

And I think I have a lot of that, too, for these other reasons. Like, I'm not going to.

And also, we might just genetically be this way.

Maybe.

Again, it's so hard to know.

It's hard to know.

It's so hard to know.

It's hard to know.

Anyhow, that's it.

Okay, well, I loved her. Yeah, me too.
I hope I didn't make her do anything she didn't want to do. Hopefully she would have stood up for herself.
What if I was manipulative and I planned a test? Let's start doing weird stuff like that. Don't miss out on trying that coffee.
It's the world's best. Drink it.
Drink it now.

Why haven't you drank it?

Drink it.

A man made that and brought it here on a bicycle.

He rode it 60 miles to bring you this coffee.

All right.

Love you.

All right. Love you.

Love you. Every episode of armchair expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

Before you go,

tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash

survey.