Best of Monday 2024

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Speaker 1 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard.
I'm joined by Mrs. Mouse.
This is the end of the year best of Mondays episode.

Speaker 2 Exciting. We pulled together 10 of our favorites.

Speaker 1 It's hard. It's really hard.
I don't love bass because, you know, there were so many we'd love. Yes.
And it's more just like, these are the ones that happen to make it of the many we love.

Speaker 1 Here's some highlights. Here's some highlights.
So please enjoy Best of Mondays.

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Speaker 1 From 705 with Bradley Cooper. Our birthdays are a month apart.
Oh, our sobriety birthdays. Sorry, yes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, our birthdays are

Speaker 1 three days apart. Yeah.
Both born deaf, just a reminder. What are the ways in which I think we're ugly?

Speaker 2 I know. I can't.
I'll.

Speaker 1 I'm still trying to get all the approval in the world. If everyone could line up neatly and just walk up to us and say, you're good, and then turn to the left.

Speaker 1 But then don't forget, you got to come back and say it again in 10 minutes. I probably won't believe it.
30 seconds after you left, it'll feel obligatory. It's an approaching line.

Speaker 1 In fact, if you could write it out, it'd be easier for me to.

Speaker 3 You have that.

Speaker 4 You're an approval junkie. Honestly, I think I've grown a lot in the last three years.

Speaker 2 That's great. Was there an impetus for that?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Getting older and realizing there are certain parts of me that have really needed serious work about intimacy with people, women specifically, like being in a real healthy relationship.

Speaker 4 And also because I'm a father and I'm like, I just want to, the least amount of damage that I could do to my daughter, please let me work on myself.

Speaker 4 And it's all just getting older and people dying and mortality.

Speaker 1 Time's accelerating.

Speaker 4 That's the currency. That's it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Nothing but time.

Speaker 4 And I think being at a place where I felt like I was willing to go to those places, and a dear friend turned me on to this incredible therapist that like changed my life.

Speaker 4 And really realizing the problem was I had no self-esteem. I think that when I came on before we talked about this, which was years ago now, I think it was not recent.

Speaker 1 It wasn't. It was at least

Speaker 1 you would have been promoting. I don't think it was.
It was a Guillermo movie. Oh, so it wasn't that long ago.
Yeah, when was that? 2021. 2021? November 2021.
I thought it was 16 years.

Speaker 1 These are two years ago.

Speaker 1 I thought it was more than that. Okay.
Yeah, we're okay.

Speaker 1 Everything's okay. We can.

Speaker 2 It does feel like a long time ago.

Speaker 4 I was maybe like a year into it at that point. Self-esteem.
And it all stemmed from, I don't know if you feel this, but creating a narrative about my upbringing that wasn't really my upbringing.

Speaker 4 So I was starting it all on a false premise.

Speaker 1 Interesting.

Speaker 4 Of like, I'm from Philly. I thought I was like a beautiful kid and they thought I was a girl and a chip on my shoulder and loving parents.
That's actually not. exactly the situation.

Speaker 4 So if you're starting it out, and also Dax and I connected early on on about our childhoods to a huge degree and our relationships to our fathers and all this stuff.

Speaker 1 Our mothers. Of course I must like our mother's husbands.
Yes. And we are the golden child that was going to be minimally president.

Speaker 4 But I guess that was part of my false narrative to a degree too.

Speaker 1 Was that all it was or was there more? I'm writing this memoir. Doesn't need to be published.
I'm writing it so I can get that version that I'm so afraid to lose out of my head. It'll be there.

Speaker 1 If I ever want to revisit it, it'll exist. That's my action of letting it go.
Wow. There's the story I've been telling my whole life.
And now we're going to just set that over there.

Speaker 1 And maybe my dad was a beautiful guy and maybe he was a loving human. Well, and also like physically nurturing, a hugger and a kisser.
Who got that in the 80s?

Speaker 1 All this new information's coming in that's like, nah.

Speaker 1 And my mom, I love her to death. She's also not the angel she was in my story.
That's right. Nor should she be.
And that's my fault.

Speaker 2 It's not fair to me.

Speaker 1 It's not his responsibility. Yeah.
I have no resentment over it. It's just like, wow, I had a really

Speaker 4 used to, not even knowing it, because that's how the behavior, I just found myself adrift. And starting with the real foundation.

Speaker 1 Which, again, let's be honest, is just another one. Yes.
I might reject the notion that there's a real one. It's just, there's all this data.
It's just infinite data of your childhood.

Speaker 4 Well, it's all a story we're telling ourselves.

Speaker 1 Exactly. That's one serves you.

Speaker 4 In a feeling state, at least, I can tell when I'm more present, when I'm not as a human being in my life.

Speaker 4 When I started to do this work of reevaluating the foundation of my life and trying to look at it with a more critical eye on honesty and reflecting on true memory, I found that the benefit is I'm much more present in my life.

Speaker 4 I don't need the things I thought I needed to fill up whatever hole I had. And all of a sudden, I'm willing to be more expressive, creative, present, giving, boundaried.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 So to me, yes, it's another story, but it felt like, boy, it's way closer to something honest because the benefits are practical. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 It totally makes sense. For me, I guess the thing I try to be critical of is the story is immaterial.

Speaker 1 Is the story serving to either excuse my character defects, justify me getting the things I want, or somehow setting up a situation where you'll be even more impressed by me because you know the story.

Speaker 1 So if the story has these kind of like self-serving gross motives, which most of my story does, I'm trying to self-aggrandize myself and seem like a victim and a victor at the same time.

Speaker 1 When I recognize that that's actually the purpose of the story, I think that's more what I'm currently honed in on. I could also tell that I had the luckiest childhood that anyone's ever had.

Speaker 1 There's enough data points for me to point to these people.

Speaker 4 But relatively speaking, we're already in the stratosphere on that benchmark.

Speaker 1 But what's the goal?

Speaker 4 Why are we doing this? And the goal for me was I want to be able to be more of service to people in my life and then me also.

Speaker 4 And I wanted to stop living in my head so much, really, so that I could be present. And I wanted to love myself like in a real way.

Speaker 4 And then through that, all of a sudden boundaries just came up that I could never create in relationships.

Speaker 1 What do those look like?

Speaker 4 My relationship with my mother completely.

Speaker 1 Oh, boundaryless. Yeah.
Like completely. My relationship to friendship.

Speaker 1 You're my daughter. You're your bed.
You're shitter. Your mother.

Speaker 1 Three dogs.

Speaker 2 Does she respect the boundaries? Like, does she like that they're up?

Speaker 4 Here's the thing that occurs. And I don't know if you have felt this with your mother, but it all just effortlessly falls into place because the bottom line is I'm finally an adult.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Right, right.

Speaker 4 Do I fall back into adolescent and childlike feelings and behaviors?

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 4 But my baseline is an adult. Whereas before my baseline was adolescence, when I was in a good space, I could live in the adult world for a little bit, but that wasn't my norm.

Speaker 1 Well, and Bradley, that's why work is so appealing to us is that you have all the evidence of adulthood through work.

Speaker 2 Because grown-ups work.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and grown-ups execute.

Speaker 4 And talk about there's boundaries.

Speaker 1 You're walking into a systematic, very clear start time and a hierarchy and everything.

Speaker 4 I definitely have escaped in work before.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because it feels like a very adult thing. Yeah.
Well, and being a parent is a very adult thing, too.

Speaker 1 From 707 with Goldie Hawn.

Speaker 1 Do you know Esther Perel? Do you know that therapist? Yeah. She has this really cool, maybe it's not proprietary to her, but she deals a lot with people who have had infidelity.

Speaker 1 And a point she makes, which I think is so profound, is quite often you think your partner cheated on you with another person because they liked that person.

Speaker 1 But in truth, they missed a version of themself

Speaker 1 that that person. allows them to access.
And I find that so much more compassionate and relatable. That's actually more about, I miss a version of me.
This person gives me that version of me.

Speaker 1 It's not really about this person.

Speaker 6 It's true. I mean, it takes two.
You really do figure out where your identity is.

Speaker 6 What I didn't like at that point was marriage because people fuse and fusion is very bad because once you start losing yourself and engage in someone else's everything and become too dependent.

Speaker 1 When you have a single identity between the two. Exactly.

Speaker 6 Then there's a loss of respect. There's expectation.
And then a lot of people actually shift mentally when they feel tied up.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 6 I always said, if I'm in a cage and I'm a bird and you leave the door open, I'll probably never fly out.

Speaker 1 Right. Or if I take a little zip around, I'll probably return to the cage.

Speaker 6 No, that's what I mean.

Speaker 1 I'll come back. I'll come back.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 6 If you close the door to the cage, my feathers will be gone and I won't look like a bird anymore. And I wouldn't survive.
So we have to find out who we are and fly with it.

Speaker 1 Well, I did think one thing I was listening to, A, and I love this about you, and now we're to the point where I think the yin and yang is really fascinating. And again, I am in a yin and yang.

Speaker 1 I am very much the Kurt, and she's very much like you. I identify deeply with Mr.
Japan. Yes.

Speaker 1 I think every dude I meet is going to try to rob my wallet, and I'm about to strike. And she thinks every dude we meet is going to cure cancer.
That's the difference between us.

Speaker 1 And it materializes everywhere. But you talk so openly about how many things you end up going through over the course on Valentine's Day of 41 years.

Speaker 6 41 that was our first day and it could have been our first kiss i don't know

Speaker 1 who knows what all happened on that valentine's day in uh 1981

Speaker 1 83.

Speaker 1 yeah or 80s i was thinking and a i just like that you're so honest about that there's phases and there's twists and turns and you both are in stages i was thinking when i was hearing you talk about it i almost would guess if you guys had gotten married you actually wouldn't be together now probably don't that in some of the phases, you would have had to sever that thing and then coming back together or finding peace would have been a whole other weird thing because it's all been framed differently.

Speaker 1 Like I almost can imagine that you wouldn't have made it 41 years if you had gotten married.

Speaker 6 Ultimately, when you look back on it, and I've never asked that question to myself, because what I like is waking up in the morning, and I've said this many times, and actually making a choice to be with someone.

Speaker 6 But, you know, as we go in partnerships, there's time when you don't want to be with them. It's normal.
And people that say, oh, we are in love with him, it's a loving relationship.

Speaker 6 And everything he does is the greatest.

Speaker 1 I've been blessed to be with him. Yes, I'm so blessed.
And every day.

Speaker 6 And I'm thinking, you know, I love you. I know that you're living in a fantasy world now.
That's not fair.

Speaker 6 I mean, certainly people have good relationships, but it's the friction also that makes it interesting. Otherwise, it could be quite boring.

Speaker 6 So the idea is to be able to establish what you want in your life. I got a wild guy here.

Speaker 1 Let's be honest about who you picked and who he picked.

Speaker 6 Yes, I picked him.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's a wild guy. I like that guy.

Speaker 6 We don't agree on certain things. He was tougher than me as a parent.
And, you know, I got, why did you do that? But we have a very, very strong family because of it.

Speaker 6 That was one of the things that gave us things to talk about. But I think that if we were married, there probably could have been times when you go, oh, come on, I'm done.
Yes.

Speaker 1 How many times? Yes. Because you're married and you go, like, can I live this way for the rest of my life, which I've already signed up for? No, I don't want to live this way for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1 That's why I think it could have potentially ended.

Speaker 6 It is absolutely possible. The only thing I could say is that I met, meet, still, a lot of men.
Nobody came up to who he is.

Speaker 1 This is an outside guess. And we interview a lot of powerful women.
And there seems to be a pretty common pattern where men are very attracted to the powerful woman.

Speaker 1 They're dazzled by the powerful woman. And then once they're a partner with the powerful woman, they then want her to now end that.
That's true. And so...

Speaker 1 A lot of women who are successful, I have such great sympathy for because they either have to get a fucking golden retriever who's not challenging, isn't rewarding, isn't going to really be a partner building shit that's just going along for the ride, or an equal that's going to get jealous of the attention they receive and the money they make.

Speaker 1 And so, unfortunately, I think for women as successful as you, it's such a narrow field of men that's an equal yet is confident enough to let you shine.

Speaker 1 That's my guess of why Kurt has been in the picture for 41 years. This motherfucker somehow has a confidence that he is not threatened by your shine.

Speaker 6 Right. He's not.

Speaker 1 From 728 with Maya Rudolph.

Speaker 1 Probably so many of these men that you've been comedically involved with were in love with you. How did you manage all that?

Speaker 7 First of all, thank you for this question because no one has ever asked me this and you're making

Speaker 3 you feel really good. It definitely is.

Speaker 1 Well, Maya, you're so beautiful and you're so talented.

Speaker 7 It's crazy. I should have come here a long time ago.

Speaker 1 because no one has ever said this to me in my entire life.

Speaker 1 I don't know what to answer.

Speaker 7 In Groundlings, I had a boyfriend.

Speaker 1 Okay. For how long?

Speaker 7 Most of it, and then he dumped me.

Speaker 7 I pass up so much comedy dong for this guy.

Speaker 7 I feel like between Groundlings

Speaker 7 and Saturday Night Live, having a boyfriend, I missed out on so much comedy dong.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Which isn't legendarily great dong. No, it's not.
It's actually kind of known to people.

Speaker 1 Doke bad dog. Dark, dark, coked up dong.
Twisted,

Speaker 1 twisted dong.

Speaker 2 And we're not talking about aesthetics.

Speaker 7 Emotional, emotional emotionally twisted dongs.

Speaker 1 Heavy use of substances, sloppy.

Speaker 1 I dodge so many bullets in that respect.

Speaker 7 But the other thing is comedians and most thespians have such a fun flirtation. Right.

Speaker 7 So you get to have that, especially with these dudes that feel like your brother. But yeah, I wish I'd gotten a lot more.

Speaker 1 That mediocre. Yeah.

Speaker 7 It would have been fun to reflect.

Speaker 1 On that flaccid dong. But that's why you had boyfriends.

Speaker 3 That answers that.

Speaker 7 I had moved back to LA with my college boyfriend.

Speaker 1 I also think he might not know that guy's like you is my hunch, too.

Speaker 7 That is something I know about myself.

Speaker 1 Right. A little bit of monica-isms.

Speaker 2 Oh, you're like oblivious to that.

Speaker 7 I do have that because I've noticed in life, I'll say something and I'll say, yeah, he likes you. What?

Speaker 1 I know that. Right.
Same over here.

Speaker 7 Why do you think that is?

Speaker 7 Because I find that fascinating about myself my own personal theory is that i'm also a little bit of a boy because of my upbringing i grew up with my brother and my dad after my mom passed you know i was seven so the majority of my childhood home was my dad and my brother and my brother's older and he was super funny so i just wanted to be like my brother right growing up and so i'm a little bit of a dude dna wise you know so that's yeah your story i think monica has a story too i do but mine's reality

Speaker 1 so it's it's like not cool to call it a story.

Speaker 2 That was great. Well, yeah, I grew up in, you know, God, how many times?

Speaker 1 She's never heard of it. You've got it.

Speaker 2 Grew up in Georgia, all white.

Speaker 3 The boys didn't like me.

Speaker 7 Same experience, by the way.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I had a hunch.
And by the way, all of it's built on a single. Well, I don't want to diminish it.
It is built largely on one very profound experience.

Speaker 2 Well, that was the culmination. Okay, it wasn't.
There were lots of things that were telling me, uh-oh, being brown isn't so great

Speaker 2 in this environment. And then it culminated in sixth grade.

Speaker 2 And this boy said he couldn't date me because my parents worked at Dairy Queen, which they don't, but Indians worked at the Dairy Queen or ran the Dairy Queen, I guess. Owned.

Speaker 1 Owned, probably. Franchised.
Oh, we own this Dairy Queen. Okay, Dairy Queen.

Speaker 1 In retrospect, they were very successful. But he liked her.

Speaker 2 He said, I want to, but I can't because her parents work at Dairy Queen. And then, you know, that got back to me.
And then I was like, oh, I see. So

Speaker 7 so they can't it's not that they don't want to it's just okay this thing about me has made it actually impossible oh yeah love and then that really really detoured the rest of my life wow i think that we have a very similar experience i grew up here in los angeles i was the only mixed kid let alone only brown girl in my class and we're talking 80s so at the birthday parties girls would french braid each other's hair and i was like check please no one's getting their fingers through this And then there were those cute little barrettes in the 80s that people would put little lanyard pretty like strings in.

Speaker 7 Those didn't fit in my hair. Or like when I went to Mary Wigmore's boy girls swim party, I had short hair and it was very curly and Xander was like, go under the water.

Speaker 7 And so I'd go under the water and he was like, do it again. And I'd do it again.

Speaker 1 He goes, your hair looks like a sponge.

Speaker 7 And I'm 51 years old and it still hurts.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know,

Speaker 7 and then he was also the kid that was like, hey, will you talk to Mary for me? It was always about about my friend Mary.

Speaker 5 100%.

Speaker 7 She was like, beautiful, wonderful.

Speaker 1 Statue. Great with kids.
Good dancer.

Speaker 1 All true. Great with kids.

Speaker 1 Great.

Speaker 7 When you said detour, what I heard was the choice to detour for ourselves. We made that choice.
We were like,

Speaker 7 I'm going over here to protect myself. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 And I only mean story because that was sixth grade. I know.
You know? I know. And so there was a lot of time after that.

Speaker 1 I can only assume this and backdate it because I've been around her all the time for eight years and I see a lot of guys like her and guys come to the show and hold up signs and people hit on her in front of me and I can see and she can't.

Speaker 1 I'm just saying that once that changes your point of view, it does become really hard to come back from that. 100%.

Speaker 1 I think the quintessential ingredient in that story, which makes it heartbreaking, is he liked you and you liked him. And the friend was like, why don't you ask her out? You guys like each other.

Speaker 7 That's really gnarly that you were told that.

Speaker 1 Yes. So then, yes, the story makes a ton of sense, which is, well, even if they like me, they're not going to.

Speaker 1 So I'm just turning off the whole thing because it's just going to be painful and hurtful. And I'm going to protect myself.
Anyways, I just think, I know you miss it a lot.

Speaker 1 And I had a hunch maybe you missed it.

Speaker 7 You are very astute.

Speaker 7 And I also didn't realize, because now that I've had four children and my body has become something I don't recognize, I look back at my young self in those grounding states and I was like, wow, I was so cute.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, you were so hot.

Speaker 7 My boobs were so cute.

Speaker 1 So perky. So perky.

Speaker 3 I had the best boobs.

Speaker 7 I had the best little bot, and I had to know it.

Speaker 1 You would have blown her right off the hill at Barton Springs if you would have unleashed those suckers. If those suckers came out to play at Barton Springs, you could have shut down the whole park.

Speaker 1 Everyone, out of the water!

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 7 Oh, what's it called? This is also what happens. I'm not going to remember words.
What's it called when the sun is blocked and you have to look through some of the clips?

Speaker 1 Thanks.

Speaker 1 We're coming up on one, by the way. Really? It's right around the corner.
Yeah, it's about to happen.

Speaker 1 Somehow, you are getting even by doing that now. She's a swarp.

Speaker 1 You're just gonna smear her name through the whole thing.

Speaker 7 The other thing is, I don't know if I know how to recognize people hitting on me. Yeah, I genuinely don't think I'm that aware.
I don't know what it looks like.

Speaker 7 When you said you saw it happening for Monica, did she not see it?

Speaker 1 No, we fight about it. I'll go, oh, that guy was hitting on you.
And she'll go, no, he wasn't. He was saying blank.
And then it's a fight. She's never gone, oh, really?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I also think you're wrong a lot.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

Speaker 1 If you dare,

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Speaker 2 Or you think something.

Speaker 1 Okay. I know the ways of love.

Speaker 2 I don't know how much I can keep in of the story I'm about to say. We had someone on this show who was flirting.
with me. I was like, yeah, he's flirting, but I know he's not so interested.

Speaker 2 Like, I know. And we left, and Dax was like, he's going to ask you out.
And I was like, I mean, maybe,

Speaker 1 whatever.

Speaker 7 And did Letterman call you?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Actually, yeah.

Speaker 1 But at two in the morning. Okay.
It's Letterman.

Speaker 5 He can get away with it.

Speaker 1 He's like just waking up. Actually, he's super flattering.
It's first evening. Whatever you want.

Speaker 2 He was kind of flirty. He's the best.
He was amazing.

Speaker 1 He's the fucking greatest of all time. He really is.

Speaker 2 Continue. Okay, so he didn't, right?

Speaker 1 Like, he just went nowhere.

Speaker 1 And I actually was kind of mad mad at you when it went nowhere hold on a second he asked for her number okay that's when we were taking pictures outside he asked for her number and dax's both of ours and then i walked him out and he said monica's so cool that means yeah he's like telling me like oh yeah monica's so cool how long have you guys known each other like he wants to know more about monica so questions equal interest okay i agree i'm not there yet my then he texts her after the episode came out now he has ghosted her he has ghosted her what did he say what happened was he like you up

Speaker 1 me and letterman are just hanging

Speaker 1 that would have been more clear i would have liked that it wasn't clear no and that's also not what happened he texted right after we recorded and said like hey i got you or something i'm sorry i know that's like new slang i'm learning it too what does it mean like i got your number that's flirty to me he has ghosted her for sure but there's another thing going on which is there's also a reality of the world this guy is very popular right now he's traveling all around and a lot of girls like him and he probably likes several girls.

Speaker 1 And so, yeah, he probably has his hands full. And he goes said Monica.
But I still maintain he liked her and he did reach out to her and he did ask for her number.

Speaker 1 And to say that this young dude with every option in the world is like a great pursuer of things, I'm not making that argument. And he probably is distracted by all kinds of hot comedy dong right now.

Speaker 7 So much comedy dong.

Speaker 2 Oh, I know, but like.

Speaker 1 Listen, I've never been anywhere in my life and then randomly met someone and then decided to get their number and then text them because I want to be friends with a stranger. He liked you.

Speaker 7 I also don't think I've ever pursued anyone myself. So I don't know how it works.
I can only imagine it can be painful when you pursue people and they don't reciprocate.

Speaker 7 So maybe his move is not so cool, but he tried.

Speaker 2 Then I texted him and then I was flirting.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 2 that's what everyone says. That's what goes.

Speaker 1 That's the only text actually. There's one button now on younger people's phone and it's just one button that says you up.
Ooh,

Speaker 1 great idea

Speaker 2 i texted him and i was flirty and then there was no response gross i was mad at you first because i was an easy target and then i really was honest with myself and i was like man this is why i don't do this no monica

Speaker 2 that's not the right lesson yeah because i know listen stop okay so he so you know it's like he likes you uh that was me protecting myself and then i was like you know what no i am gonna text him i am gonna flirt And then full ghosting was like, oh, yeah, this is why you don't do this.

Speaker 7 I totally get it. I've been ghosted in that way as well.
And it makes you feel like, oh, no good deed goes unpunished. Why did I fucking open like a sliver of my heart?

Speaker 9 And I wasn't going to.

Speaker 7 You went against smart. Yeah, you went against what you thought was right.

Speaker 1 But again, there is a reality that this person has been out of town virtually since we met him. And he's being nominated for everything.
And there are a lot of girls, I'm sure, in his sphere.

Speaker 1 Whatever. You say I'm not good.
But it does not say that he didn't actually like you. Oh, he liked you.

Speaker 7 Yes. It's clear to me.
But I will say, I don't think it's the last text you'll ever get from him.

Speaker 2 Well, it might be the last text.

Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Laudi Milio.

Speaker 1 Anyway, we really got derailed.

Speaker 7 I disagree. That was good rail.
I think you're right. And I love that you've thought about it.
That makes me love you more because I know as my friend, you see me. So that makes me feel really good.

Speaker 7 And I'm also in good company because it's such a similar experience. I was, you know, in a small group of kids growing up and felt so ugly duckling vibes.

Speaker 1 I'm going to also say it was compounded by you're in LA at Crossroads. Some of the white people that are relative to you are like princesses on planet Earth.

Speaker 1 It's not even just like you're rummaging around my hometown in Michigan. It's pretty extreme.

Speaker 7 And I had a similar thing of like the boy I loved my whole childhood. The elementary school that I went to, we were a small group of kids, was 25 kids, and I was was in love with Dax.

Speaker 3 He was, you know, him? Never, yeah.

Speaker 1 No, I just, my breath went away because I heard you were in love with Dax. I know, I did.

Speaker 7 Well, I told you, you're the only other Dax I've ever heard.

Speaker 2 This is the only Dax other than him I've ever heard.

Speaker 7 Dax was the love of my life, and he did not love me back.

Speaker 1 All my friends do.

Speaker 7 I loved him. I loved him.
I loved him. He was fucking huge.
And he had this big blonde bull cut. He's super hot now.
He's grown out of his bull cut, but he's a very handsome married man.

Speaker 7 in the old days he was the love of my life i just knew that that was my person and we were really good friends and then junior high great friends and i was like it's about to happen it's about to go down

Speaker 7 nothing happened and then he left school but then he came back as a senior and i think he had the nerve to tell me at our 30th high school reunion like oh i was in love with you i was like you know what

Speaker 7 first of all that doesn't count exact now and do you even believe him i don't i do i don't believe him like why didn't didn't he tell me that?

Speaker 1 Guys, both of you.

Speaker 2 It's easy for him to say now.

Speaker 1 Thank you. You guys are the smartest and dumbest fucking people I've ever met.
Monica, can you look at Maya and go, of course anyone be in love with her? Duh. 100%.

Speaker 1 And then Maya, can you look at Monica?

Speaker 1 No, but like, of course,

Speaker 3 it doesn't penetrate.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's true. Did you have a thing that I've figured out I have in therapy, which is I seek specifically white male approval so

Speaker 2 much because that was who was rejecting me all the time.

Speaker 1 Oh, God.

Speaker 7 I have to think about that.

Speaker 1 I just threw her hands in the air like this

Speaker 7 shiver down my spine. I'm trying to think.
I mean, yes and no, because I feel like I've also worked out some things. I also have, well, my dad's Jewish.
I guess he looks white.

Speaker 7 My dad is a superhuman, great guy. He's like the best guy in the world, so I don't have bad dad stuff.
It's really interesting. There's a type of white guy that I know I'm invisible to.
Interesting.

Speaker 7 And it's kind of like a fratty guy. They can't see me.
I don't register for them. They don't know what to make of me.

Speaker 1 There's just some opaqueness. They don't get it.

Speaker 7 And they don't want to get it. It doesn't compute.
And I do find that very fascinating.

Speaker 1 Yeah. God, again, I'm not sure I believe you entirely, but I think probably 80%.

Speaker 2 There's no way to know.

Speaker 1 There isn't. I'd have to be around you on some blowhard jocks to see.

Speaker 7 You're triggering a slight memory of being single.

Speaker 3 By the way, I've only had like three boyfriends.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. You've not really been single much in your life.

Speaker 7 No, but that's the thing. They're just long relationships.
I haven't been like dong to dong or anything like that.

Speaker 1 Don't know where this dong ends and that one begins. I mean, sometimes don't at the same time.

Speaker 7 But I do remember being at a bar once, like on the west side. Maybe I was in Venice.

Speaker 7 And my hair was, I started relaxing it when I was at SNL, but before it was my natural curls, it's very thick, natural, curly hair.

Speaker 1 It's quite beautiful. I've seen many photos, and you used to be at the Groundlings with that.

Speaker 7 At the Groundlings, yeah.

Speaker 7 Once I got to SNL and couldn't get under the wigs, we we had to like reroute and then i just never got out of the route i'm gonna get there one day i look forward to it thank you yeah me too but i was gonna say i met a guy at a bar and he was like hey wild woman

Speaker 1 oh my goodness

Speaker 1 oh that's what you see yeah you're so right to be upset and also you've got to consider the source sometimes it's like you're like giving these dumb 20 year old people that are drunk some kind of wisdom they don't have

Speaker 1 to be like trying to swing it for the fences thank you i agree with that yeah let me just say like like, you're assuming he really thinks that.

Speaker 1 And then I'm going, like, on the walk up to you, he's like, he's running through ideas. I'm going to say, hey, sexy mama.
No, hey, chicky mama. Go, wild woman.
Again, butthole is tight.

Speaker 1 It's like totally tight.

Speaker 1 You just don't even know what he was cycling through before.

Speaker 1 Wild woman.

Speaker 1 That's a zero. You lose.
Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 From 736 with Bobby Lee.

Speaker 10 Now, Dax, why four years ago?

Speaker 11 I've always wanted to ask you, did you go out?

Speaker 1 There's a long version and a short version. I'll try to do a medium version.
I had broken my arm. I had a prescription for Vicodin, and Kristen handed them out to me.

Speaker 1 And I decided I would not take those when I traveled back to Detroit because I was going to see my dad who was dying of cancer and she wouldn't be there to administer the Vicodin.

Speaker 1 So while I was with my dad and he had all these Percocets, I said, you know what? I have a prescription for Vicodin at home. I'm going to to take some of these Percocets.
Makes sense.

Speaker 1 That was eight years into being sober. I had a total meltdown.
Kristen ended up coming to Detroit and surprising me. Did he pass? Two months later, he did.

Speaker 1 But again, here's the thing where, like, when I read about you and your dad and your recent relapse, it's like, I would have told you I'm handling that whole experience fine.

Speaker 1 I'm flying home once a week to deal with his thing. The room's full of AA people.
I would tell you that it wasn't really having an impact on me, but I did that thing. And no one will like this.

Speaker 1 My dad and I did sit in his living room looking out over the lake and we were were both on Percocet and we're both sober. I don't hate that I had that moment with my dad.

Speaker 1 I'd never party with my dad, but we were both just kind of sitting there enjoying the thing. Next day, I'm overwhelmed with guilt and fear.
Oh my God, I've relapsed. I'm going to have to reset my day.

Speaker 1 Kristen comes in. I confess to her what I did.
I took this and I wasn't prescribed that and blah, blah, blah. And she's like, look, it's fine.
You're here. I have that prescription.

Speaker 1 You're not going to do it again. And you keep it moving.
And I was like, okay. And I kept it moving.

Speaker 1 But that was almost like when those owls that the falconer flies, they're only supposed to eat the food from the trainer. If they catch a mouse one time, danger.
They're going to want to hunt again.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Because I had that experience and really it was fine.
And opiates were never really my thing. Over the years, I break a lot of stuff.
And when I would use opiates, I was tricky.

Speaker 1 So she would administer them, but I also would maybe not take them at night so I could save up. And in the morning, I could take three times the dosage.

Speaker 1 So we're in a very gray area sporadically for several years. I certainly don't think I need to come in and say, I need a new date, but I'm also being a little tricky when I have them prescribed.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Then in rapid order, I break my hand, all the bones across it. I get all these pins in it.
I get surgery. I'm going to use your arms to your hands.

Speaker 1 What the fuck is going on? I'm in a motorcycle racing off-road stuff. Stop doing that.
No. Okay.
We're going Monday. All right.

Speaker 1 So I get all these pins and then I get a pretty healthy dose of real good opiates for a while almost immediately after I shatter my shoulder, my ribs, my thing on a motorcycle.

Speaker 1 No, I have multiple surgeries. Now I'm on a lot of opiates.

Speaker 1 What was very misleading about the opiates compared to the other stuff is like, if I drink, you will know in one second because the second I'm drunk, I'm going to get Coke.

Speaker 1 And when I get Coke, I do it for three days. There's no version where I don't do it for three days.
There'd be no hiding. In the most conventional sense, it's unmanageable.
This was very weird.

Speaker 1 I'm on opiates. I'm still doing the podcast.
I'm still very responsive and present with my family. And I'm going, this is weird.
This isn't very unmanageable. This is fine.

Speaker 1 Other than I know, you have to keep upping your dosage because you get used to it so quickly. Like, I'm not dumb.
I know that that's an issue.

Speaker 11 At this point in your mind, did you know you relapsed?

Speaker 1 I think I still had plausible deniability at that point. I wasn't ready to accept that.
It was when I started buying them illegally. I was like, okay, now we're definitely doing something.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then that lasted for a couple months. And then I decided I have to quit and I started to try to do it on my own.
And then I was visibly going through detoxes, and then I copped to the whole thing.

Speaker 11 Wow, it's just a sneaky sucker, huh? So, when I relapsed after 17 years, I was doing my friend Sam Tripoli's show at the main room, and his show is sponsored by a weed company.

Speaker 11 And I have 17 years of sobriety.

Speaker 1 You already fucked up on Mad TV, you got sober again, and now you have 17 years.

Speaker 11 Yes, I did 13 and then 17. For me, it's always I just stop going to meetings and stop calling my sponsor.
And this is years because you think you can do it. I have time, 15, 16 years.

Speaker 1 You don't

Speaker 11 yeah so i'm sitting there and this guy that owns this weed company goes hey you know we have a package when people do the show and i go i'm sober he's like oh cool but i have a cbd thing and i go what's a cbd thing i don't know what it is

Speaker 1 what do you stand for and he goes this oil has one percent thc in it just to activate the cbd right but if you just do the dosage you're not gonna feel it so i drank the whole thing yes of course

Speaker 11 and i got buzzed so i went back next week because my stomach hurt because you're not supposed to drink.

Speaker 1 That's all oil.

Speaker 11 So my stomach really was in pain. So I go, hey, do you have one that's like 50%? And it started getting better.
And then I started getting 99% THC, 1% CBD.

Speaker 11 And obviously, I had a relapse and it was just that easy.

Speaker 2 Did you know at that point when it was 99%?

Speaker 11 I think when I drank that whole bottle for that 1%, I knew. There's something really strange about this.

Speaker 1 I think a lot of people who have relapsed will relate to this. You're distracted at first with the thought of just making sure no one knows.
You forget that you didn't ever get sober for anyone else.

Speaker 1 You got sober because you were miserable.

Speaker 1 But at some point in sobriety, I started telling myself this thought, well, if no one knows and I'm focused on them, and then again, deciding to ignore like, well, I know and I can't really live that way.

Speaker 1 First thought is, can I get away with it? But you ignored the fact that like, you know.

Speaker 11 The problem is the eight years of real sobriety that you had, that never goes away. So that's in your mind and your heart.

Speaker 1 You know now. Yeah.
And I was sad and missed that purity I felt. That first eight years, there was nothing on my report card that you could have said was tricky.

Speaker 1 And then I had several years of just that was in the back of my mind. I still only had them when they were prescribed to me.

Speaker 1 All these other ways I would justify it, but it never had that super clean feeling that those first eight years have.

Speaker 11 There are moments in pure sobriety that it's just the most joyous I've ever been.

Speaker 1 I know. When you have those days, you're like, why don't I recognize I am so much happier this way? Yeah, I know.

Speaker 11 The freedom and also your belief that everything's going to work out. You're not looking into the future and going, what if this happens and this happens? You're just really in the present moment.

Speaker 10 Just like, I'm here.

Speaker 11 I'm free and I have peace. Those occasions are rare, but I never had them.

Speaker 1 No, when you go like, yeah, when you go like, I don't need anything to feel okay is the most miraculous feeling you can have. It's amazing.

Speaker 1 Because you really, for so much of your life, are convinced you can't feel okay without something.

Speaker 11 Especially growing up, going through all the experiences. I was never taught these tools and this way of living.
There was no internet.

Speaker 1 I'm just in this violent house of chaos driving.

Speaker 1 From 748 with Babers, aka Amy Poehler.

Speaker 1 This was going to be one of my questions and much later, but I feel like every time I do bump into you, you and I are on a similar self-exploration path.

Speaker 1 Or maybe you'll bring up something you've been mulling around and I'll think, oh yeah, that's really fun to think about. I'm going to try that.

Speaker 1 I was wondering, we have our story and our story explains why we are the way we are. And it's so comforting, right? I can see you

Speaker 1 rolling around in it, frolicking in the story.

Speaker 1 And then this kind of disruptive thing happens where you have children and one of my two children's, Lincoln, she has all the shit I have without any of the reasons I gave myself for being this way.

Speaker 1 And I'm more and more having to maybe consider like, oh no, man, it was all genetics. The story is just something you've put on top of it.

Speaker 1 And I'm just curious if you've had that experience with kids and if it's like poked holes at all in your story.

Speaker 9 Big time. Some of it is watching codependency, what it looks like for them, and realizing, right,

Speaker 9 I did that. I still do that.
Seeing that. And then having a kid that is really different than you.
That's also a big one. Like if they're an island, you're a wave kind of thing.

Speaker 9 But deeper than the kid thing, if you're getting older and you're doing any work on yourself, there just becomes like an end of act two moment.

Speaker 1 And an embarrassment, right?

Speaker 6 It's so embarrassing.

Speaker 9 Like all these, I always, I never, I'm this kind of person.

Speaker 9 It's so gross because it's not really true or even really true anymore.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 9 Maybe it's just an old story. And then you got to start practicing your backhand, basically.
What is your backhand? The thing that you can, do you just don't do it as much or as often?

Speaker 9 Do you want to practice that in act three? But it's so funny you say that.

Speaker 9 On my way here, I i was thinking i wonder what version of myself will show up in this interview oh oh that's fun i wanted to be the authentic version but i was nervous because i could bring a different version if i wanted to well you have one that produces great results this was another one of my highlighted words i just wanted to talk about was performative yes dude as a concept let me back up you're in therapy i imagine yes i'm in group therapy and individual oh my goodness and guess what's coming back couples therapy guess what motherfucker what i know she was sitting right where you're sitting okay five days ago so you know i'm so obsessed with couples therapy that i do a fake podcast where i play a couples therapist named dr sheila

Speaker 9 question mark thank you dex due to legal reasons and i'm obsessed and you are too why do you think we are why are we obsessed with couples therapy

Speaker 9 well i'm obsessed with all of it i love or i love anyone that does a good job at anything.

Speaker 1 So she's

Speaker 9 her hair and her ability to just look and not talk is

Speaker 1 crazy.

Speaker 2 And it just pulls out the thing in the other person that they don't even know. It's so under the surface.
And all of a sudden, this like recluse is crying and opening. It's unbelievable.

Speaker 9 And then also I'm obsessed with why is she doing it?

Speaker 2 Oh, we get into that one.

Speaker 9 Okay. Can't wait to hear.
Then the couples.

Speaker 9 Thank you for your service. Truly.
And not in a million years, babers.

Speaker 1 For me.

Speaker 1 No way.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 9 That's too much. Yes.

Speaker 1 And you and I, this is where we diverge a little bit. We do have different comfort levels with that aspect.
We do. And I guess probably my explanation, my story is AA for 20 years.

Speaker 1 I was like, I get so used to fucking strangers are there and I'm talking about shitting the bed and an orgy and we move on and I live.

Speaker 9 I'm working on, this is going to sound so cheesy, this connection, but this is why I'm like, I'm going to do TikTok this year because I know this is a very interesting thing.

Speaker 1 I i know you referenced tick tock in a you know

Speaker 9 but the connection really it's bigger than that which is how do you allow yourself to be seen you have to allow yourself to be seen or known sometimes as i get older i realize am i am i truly known it's like a deep ache you want to be known

Speaker 9 so it's kind of like how much do you give away how much who can you do it with and to you want to be doing you don't want to feel lonely Yeah.

Speaker 1 Babers, you're emotional about being known. I can relate to part of it to be known, but also to know yourself.
Or do you feel like you 100%?

Speaker 9 It's more that I feel sad for the parts of me that didn't allow myself to be out there and be known, which is why couples therapy is so fascinating to me.

Speaker 9 It's like this combination of, and therapy in general, being tender and being known, and then also

Speaker 9 setting good boundaries and taking care of yourself. It's deep stuff.
I just love it.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert

Speaker 1 if you dare.

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Speaker 1 Audible's most anticipated collection, the best of 2025, is here. And let me tell you, these editors know what they're doing.

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Speaker 1 From 763, Kihui Kwan.

Speaker 1 This is an impossible gap because, really, within four years, you go from a refugee camp to starring in the biggest movie of the year with the biggest movie star by the biggest director of all time.

Speaker 1 This is really not a possible experience. How do we get from newly into the States to getting in that movie?

Speaker 5 It's pretty insane. I was just being a kid going to school and one day this group of people came to my elementary school and they had an open call.

Speaker 1 This is a dream. If I were you, I would actually think this can't be reality.

Speaker 2 You're definitely in a simulation.

Speaker 1 So you didn't, were you like a class clownie a little bit? I wasn't.

Speaker 5 In fact, I wasn't even the one that was auditioning. It was my little brother.
His teacher thought he was. perfect.

Speaker 5 Sometimes even to this day, I wonder why I was chosen and not him because I think he's so much more talented than me and he's funny he makes me laugh all the time so he was more of a ham than I was and so he was auditioning for the casting director and I was just behind the camera coaching him what to do was telling him like David do this do that and telling him what kind of expression he should be doing and I was just like shouting out directions you're directing him they should have hired you to direct him

Speaker 5 and the casting director saw me and I was speaking to my brother in Chinese and Cantonese okay he saw something in me me and many years later I reunited with our casting director and he told me that they had a hard time finding the perfect kid to play short round.

Speaker 5 In fact they went to London, to Hong Kong, Singapore.

Speaker 5 everywhere where there was a bigger Chinese community because back then Chinatown Los Angeles was really small and they didn't think they would find who they were looking for there.

Speaker 5 So they went everywhere except Chinatown Los Angeles.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow.

Speaker 5 And they were about to give up and they said, why don't we just give it one last try?

Speaker 1 It's obvious how desperate they were that they were going to random elementary. Exactly.
That's not the normal thing. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Especially for a movie of this size.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 This is unrealistic.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you're barking orders at your brother, which is hysterical. And I can see why she or he would have seen, oh, this is what we need.
This is a little guy who's running the show. Yeah, Dynamo.

Speaker 1 And short round was a total survivor.

Speaker 5 I was precocious.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 You then auditioned.

Speaker 5 Then audition, they gave me the sights, and I could barely speak English at all. It was just very little.
And then my reading comprehension was even worse.

Speaker 1 Of course.

Speaker 5 So I was saying the lines and really messing it up, saying, like, Indy, like, trying to even understand what I was saying. I'm not even saying the lines.
I'm reading the lines.

Speaker 1 You're just making a series of sounds. Exactly.

Speaker 5 And he saw something in that. He says, Key, why don't you put that away and let's just talk?

Speaker 1 Who's he?

Speaker 5 Mike Fenton. He cast ET, the goonies.

Speaker 3 Oh, this guy's a genius.

Speaker 5 He's a big casting director. In fact, he told me years later when we reunited again, he said that after I left that room, he called Steven Spielberg and he says, we don't have to look any further.

Speaker 5 We found your kid.

Speaker 1 And there's a lot of chills.

Speaker 5 I auditioned for Spielberg or Lucas.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. Oh my God.

Speaker 1 What are your parents thinking right now?

Speaker 5 They had no clue what was going on. And they could barely speak in English when they answered that phone.

Speaker 1 The first Indiana Jones had come out. We haven't seen it, but you knew about it, right? No, we didn't know.

Speaker 5 I mean, don't forget, we're living in Chinatown. We're very insulated by this small Chinese community.
So we've never seen Star Wars. We've never seen Raiders of the Lost Arts.
Jaws? No.

Speaker 5 Back then, we had a really small 13-inch black and white television. We couldn't afford to go to the movies.
We didn't even have a car.

Speaker 5 That's why when they call and they said, we want you to come to Burback and audition, my mom said, we don't have any means to get there.

Speaker 1 We're out.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Don't want to send you a driver.

Speaker 1 Guys, this is not.

Speaker 1 I can't. I'm trying to imagine what the fuck your parents.
And they're having the same grapple with reality too. It's like, what is my life? These people are calling to bring my child with a driver.

Speaker 1 I mean, they must have just been trying to compute what the fuck was going on. Maybe even.

Speaker 2 Also scared. Yeah, like, are we getting taken advantage of?

Speaker 5 We didn't think much of it. They didn't think I would land the role.
Right. It was like, oh, they want to see him? Oh, sure, we'll take him.

Speaker 5 We didn't know it was going to be a sequel to one of the biggest movies of all time.

Speaker 1 Thank God.

Speaker 1 You didn't know. Because you would have maybe felt a lot of pressure if you knew who Spielberg was.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's why when I walked into the room, it was this bunch of guys with a mustache and a beard.

Speaker 5 I didn't know their names. I didn't know any of the work at that time.
I didn't know that I was meeting and talking to three of the most successful people

Speaker 1 of all time.

Speaker 1 And written by Lawrence Kazan. Yeah.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 One of the greatest writers of all time. Okay, so you go in there and clearly you charm them in that audition.
Where was it filmed?

Speaker 5 It was from in Sri Lanka. So after my audition for Stephen and George and Harrison, a few weeks later, I was on a flight.
Again, my second time being on a flight to Sri Lanka.

Speaker 5 The first time I was on a flight was from Hong Kong to LA. I was in economy.
And all of a sudden, I'm flying first class with my mom to Sri Lanka.

Speaker 1 And you're 12? And I i was 12 yeah they're serving you coca-colas and nuts and all this

Speaker 5 sundaes and what's mom thinking how's mom explaining this to you because you're probably looking at her like how is this happening she doesn't know but she's got to give you an answer i think she was just really happy for me and proud my parents gave up so much in fact when we got to the us

Speaker 5 my parents were heavily in debt because they just didn't have enough money to get all of us out so they were borrowing money from their friends so when we got here they they were working really hard to try to pay off that debt, and that's why they put their 12-year-old kid to work.

Speaker 1 It must have been an insane amount of money relative to what they were making by working.

Speaker 5 Here's what's so great about Lucas and Spielberg: I was 12 years old, we didn't have an agent or a manager, we didn't have anybody to look after us, no lawyer.

Speaker 5 So, whatever contract they gave us to sign at that time, we just signed it.

Speaker 10 Yeah, of course.

Speaker 5 But little did we know, not only did they give me a really generous salary, but they also made me a profit participant.

Speaker 1 No!

Speaker 1 They gave you a point of the movie?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I was able to share in the success of the movie.

Speaker 5 That's why when the movie came out and became one of the biggest movies in 1984, not long after that, I got a check in the mail and that check was so

Speaker 5 nice that that I was able to help my parents pay off the debt.

Speaker 5 We were renting a little house in Chinatown, and I was able to use that money to buy a house in Mono Park where my parents and all my siblings can live a bit more comfortable.

Speaker 1 Again, the range of luck you have: you've got like the worst luck and the greatest luck, all within a span of four years.

Speaker 5 And I think that's what makes it a great life. And not only that, when the movie came out, our world premiere was in London, attended by Princess Diana

Speaker 5 and Prince Charles at that time, who is King Charles now, but going from a refugee camp, and I'm standing in line with Spielberg and Lucas and shaking hands with Princess Diana.

Speaker 1 They should make a movie about your life. I want to watch this movie.
I want to see a little boy experience.

Speaker 2 I love this. That makes me love Steven Spielberg.

Speaker 5 They were so generous.

Speaker 1 Lucas had done that too with the Star Wars cast. He gave them a percentage of

Speaker 1 12-year-old boy, like they could have easily been like, but everyone in Star Wars was also a no-name actor, and he gave them some of the toy rights.

Speaker 5 That is so rare. You have to fight for it

Speaker 5 and be a profit participant.

Speaker 1 No, you got to say no and walk away five or six times.

Speaker 5 It was like on their own accord. It was out of their generosity.

Speaker 1 Okay, so again, you have no awareness of who Harrison Ford is either at this point. So you arrive in Sri Lanka and you start working with him immediately.
Yes. And is he intimidating?

Speaker 1 He is a very big man with a husky voice. Oh, he was not.

Speaker 5 He was so friendly.

Speaker 1 And playful.

Speaker 5 And playful and humble and kind. I would always play with him.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And he would make me laugh. All of us were staying in a hotel in Sri Lanka.
Every day after we rapped, I would see Harrison swim in the hotel swimming pool.

Speaker 5 And I would always be on the side watching him go back and forth doing laps.

Speaker 5 And one day he asked me, he says, Key, come on in and join me. And I go, I can't.
I don't know how to swim.

Speaker 1 And he says, what?

Speaker 1 Come here.

Speaker 5 And he taught me.

Speaker 5 He taught me how to swim.

Speaker 1 This is the best story I've ever heard.

Speaker 2 This is so special. And I know you know it because you reflect on it a lot and you give a lot of gratitude vocally, but how

Speaker 1 I guess I have such distrust of anything good

Speaker 1 that I would have had a hard time that whole experience.

Speaker 1 accepting it was real. I would keep waiting to almost wake up.

Speaker 5 As a kid, you don't really know how special that is.

Speaker 1 Of course.

Speaker 5 And so to me, I thought this is how movie making is. Yes.

Speaker 1 You know, like from now on, every movie that I make is going to be like this. The star will teach me how to swim.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And you would walk on these big scale, beautiful sets.
You get treated really well.

Speaker 1 200 days to shoot. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So I thought every movie was like, and then very quickly I realized, oh, wow, it doesn't always work like that.

Speaker 1 It's crazy how good you are in the movie, having never done it.

Speaker 5 I really think it's because of Steven's direction. He's so good with kids.

Speaker 5 He would tell me specifically how to say my lines and he would give me directions where if I just follow that, then I can do what he wants.

Speaker 5 He was just the kindest, there was never any screaming on sets. There was always laughter.
We can always goof around. Even though we were shooting on film, it was expensive to shoot on film.

Speaker 5 You have to process all of that. We were constantly making jokes, doing take after take after take.
And I would hear his laughter behind the monitor, and that's what it was like.

Speaker 1 So it was fun.

Speaker 5 You liked acting because of that experience. That's the reason why I fell in love with acting.
I remember we were shooting in London, L Street Studios, and that's where we built all those stages.

Speaker 5 I didn't even know this because I hadn't seen Star Wars, but I knew later on one day Carrie Fisher came to visit. I remember goofing around with her on set, Mark Hamill.

Speaker 1 Oh, they must have all loved you.

Speaker 5 I think they were all there for Harrison Ford.

Speaker 1 from 798 with hallie berry

Speaker 13 i do want to clear up something this has plagued billy bob and i since we did that movie we had this very explicit love scene there's an urban legend that we really were fucking i've heard it and it's just not true i believe you i've perpetuated that can i tell you that

Speaker 1 i know i'm so sorry oh i've heard of you do you you know the other one?

Speaker 13 What's the other one?

Speaker 1 Angel Heart, Mickey Rourke, and Lisa Bonet. I've heard that too.
Okay, great. Now, if we take you out of it, can we take you out of it for one second? So you can imagine.
Because I'm in it.

Speaker 1 You cannot take me out of it. I'm going to take you out of it for one second.

Speaker 1 Here's why those things are so sticky and enjoyable. Because

Speaker 1 the love of my life was Lisa Bonet. She is the number one most beautiful human to ever walk on planet Earth.
Mickey Rourke was the stud of all studs.

Speaker 1 If you were a white dude, that's about as good as it got. You looked at him in nine and a half weeks and diner.
He was so fucking cool. So I'm seeing this dude I would love to be.

Speaker 1 He's with this woman that's the most beautiful of all time. And you're like, they really fucked you.
You're like, yes, I'm so happy for both of them. The two hottest people did it.

Speaker 13 But how are you going to do that with people? I have no idea.

Speaker 1 Camera's rolling. I don't know.
That's even heightens the craziness.

Speaker 1 I know. But you've heard it too.

Speaker 13 I've heard it too, and it's secretly driven me mad all these years.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, I'm glad we cleared it up.

Speaker 1 yes have you heard that i've said it when it comes up i'll tell the alleged one well i've said the alleged ones just like i said the alleged angel heart which you heard okay well now you can say i'll say you know what guys proof that one unfortunately is not true

Speaker 1 the guy with the sexiest eyes in the world and the other most beautiful person in the world didn't actually have sex that didn't happen i didn't date spike lee or eddie murphy can i just clear that up oh those are rumors too those are rumors too i don't know those ones that must be so annoying it is that every time you do a project and you're doing these incredible roles and incredible work and the rumors that come out are always about they got a link to somebody or who you're dating you can't just be a good actor and you can't just make that shit look real you had to really be doing it well interesting okay

Speaker 1 let's hear it come on i don't even know what i was basing it on it looked so real it had to be real i just want to be clear okay so what were you basing it on just rumor just that would be awesome i'd be happy for both of them.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's it.

Speaker 13 That's what you wanted to have.

Speaker 1 Yes, I would be so happy for Lisa Boney and Mickey Rourke if that really happened.

Speaker 13 But would you have been happy for me and Billy Bob?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 13 Really? You had a wife. So, you know,

Speaker 1 she signed off.

Speaker 13 I know Angie, and she ain't signing off on that shit.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're right. It's really cool, but yeah, that's it.
She ain't signing off on that. And I'm a girl's girl.

Speaker 13 I'll do a lot of things, but I'm not going to sleep with your man.

Speaker 2 Although, in her blood era, she was a little more wild.

Speaker 1 Things were wild.

Speaker 13 Yeah, but they were wearing blood. That didn't mean, okay go have sex with someone

Speaker 1 you're right in fact it's the opposite i have not been objectified so i really can't probably but i'm trying to imagine if there was a rumor about me and one of my co-stars that had actual sex in a scene how i would feel about it There's a woman, you would feel so violated.

Speaker 13 Yeah. There was some wrestler dude.
I can't even remember his name right now. I've never met the guy.
And he's talking about he had sex with me.

Speaker 13 And people really believed this.

Speaker 1 Very fucked up.

Speaker 13 It is. You feel violated when people dare to just.

Speaker 2 It's an ownership.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I don't like that at all for the record.
And I very much apologize for any time I did bring up allegedly this is part of the lore. Sorry.

Speaker 13 I've been married enough times. Like you don't need to add on.

Speaker 1 Just pick them up there. Why I stopped doing print entirely interviews because I did.
an interview in Playboy Magazine. And you have to know, I was so excited about that.

Speaker 1 I had read all the Playboy Magazine interviews. They were my favorite.
Like anytime you really wanted to get to know somebody, it was in there, right? And they asked me, and I was so excited.

Speaker 1 And in real life, the interviewer said, you've been linked to several famous ladies. What's the magic something? Let's just say that.
I can't even remember the particulars.

Speaker 1 I go on to try to give an answer that doesn't make me seem like a fucking douchebag. It comes out.
in the question in print says you've been linked to a lot of famous ladies list three people

Speaker 1 that he did not list in his question

Speaker 1 i had not even met these three people but if you go to this website who's dated who it says i dated these people i've never met the people so now i'm like these women think i was asked that and didn't immediately correct him and go no no i've never even met those people oh they hate you Of course they should.

Speaker 1 Where's your integrity? Like, you can't add names. That was so shady.
I'm never doing that again.

Speaker 13 I didn't do interviews for 10 years for this reason.

Speaker 13 I was so tired of the same star-crossed beauty articles wanting to always make me seem like I'm playing the victim or talking about my bad marriages. Like I was not.

Speaker 13 But that's what everybody wanted to talk to me about, which is why when I came here and I thought, oh, two hours, because you sit down with people, you talk about so many things, but they extrapolate.

Speaker 13 the story they want to tell about you. And they have the power as the editor in chief of their magazine.

Speaker 1 They go through the filter of their own person.

Speaker 13 And what they want to spin about you.

Speaker 1 The story they already had in their head about you, whether you fit into it or not.

Speaker 2 And what they think is sellable. It's sellable.

Speaker 13 And I got hip to that, and I just said, no more. This doesn't service me.
It services them.

Speaker 1 I think that's why this is the antidote to that.

Speaker 1 It's you. And I'll go anywhere and speak in my own voice.
I'm happy to. Me too.

Speaker 13 So you can hear my inflection. You hear if I'm joking.
You hear if it's ingestion.

Speaker 1 If I'm mad. Yes.
And then ask me anything.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like I'm saying it's great that Steven Segal has a reggae album, but my voice is telling you I don't really think it's great that he has it in a print article. Thanks for clarifying.

Speaker 1 I hope it was clear. I don't think that's a great move.

Speaker 13 These podcasts have revolutionized everything and it's given us back our power.

Speaker 1 I agree. In the same way, social media for all of its isms and owls.

Speaker 1 It has killed paparazzi. And you and I were unified on that.
Oh, I'm going to throw one thing in the mix right now. You and I were almost in a movie together.
Really?

Speaker 1 What movie?

Speaker 1 Well, you were almost in Wanted. I was.
And I was almost in Wanted. Really?

Speaker 1 I almost got the James McElvoy role. He had fallen out and they started meeting people.
And I met Timor, that interesting Russian dude, which I assume you met him too.

Speaker 1 And Angie had fallen out, or maybe you were whoever order. There could have been a version of Wanted with you and I.

Speaker 13 That would have been amazing.

Speaker 1 Yes. I think James McIlvoy is much better than I am, but just for the record.

Speaker 1 But can you imagine? That would be freaky if we had been in Wanted. That was a very successful thing.

Speaker 13 My friend Mark Flatt produced that. I was like, Mark, you should have given me that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, just give me that.

Speaker 1 Give me that. Give me stuff.
Yes, Ben.

Speaker 3 I do too.

Speaker 13 Oh, my God. I grew up with them.
I invested in Wicked, so that's how far back I go with that.

Speaker 1 No way. Good for you.

Speaker 1 One of the smartest things I ever

Speaker 3 freaking did.

Speaker 1 Well, you already know it. You fucking won the Academy Award for it, but boy, did I love Monster's Ball.
You're so impossibly great in it.

Speaker 1 I'm going to bring up cat women, women, women, only for a single reason, which is, I think this is the most gangster move ever. You cat women.
Why can't I say that?

Speaker 13 That's right, because there are many of us. That is right.

Speaker 1 There's cat women.

Speaker 1 It's a Freudian slip. You do cat women.
You win a Razzie and you go accept it. And you bring with you in your hand your Oscar.

Speaker 2 Oh, hell yeah. I did not know this.

Speaker 1 And you hold the Razzie in one hand and the Oscar in the other. And I'm like, that's cooler than you having fucked fucked Billy Bob Thornton as legend.
I was like, oh my God, that is fucking so cool.

Speaker 2 That's life, right?

Speaker 1 Do you have to work your way up to that decision or you immediately know, fuck it, I'm going to go do this one?

Speaker 13 I immediately knew that.

Speaker 1 It's so cool.

Speaker 13 I also had a fundamental knowing that when I won that Oscar, it didn't mean I was the best. It meant I won.
Because what is the best performance? Again, it's subjective. So it just meant I won.

Speaker 13 And I knew when they tried to give me the Razzie, it didn't mean I was the worst. It just meant I won that fucking thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 So because I'm very healthy.

Speaker 13 I know that. I thought if you can go and accept an accolade, then you must be of the same character and substance to go accept something when they're telling you, okay, it sucked balls.

Speaker 13 You must be able to be the same person.

Speaker 1 It's just so confident and attractive. It's so cool.
It's so classy.

Speaker 13 It was so fun to get up there and make jokes. And I wrote my whole speech and I was like, ready to rap.

Speaker 1 Wolo's speech was better than the Oscar speech with the Razzie speech. Obviously, you laugh and you're like, fuck, I kind of.

Speaker 13 I put way more energy in my Razzie speech.

Speaker 8 The Oscar speech, I didn't write a speech.

Speaker 13 I didn't think I was going to win. I thought Sissy Space was going to win because back in those days, whoever won the Golden Globe pretty much always won the Oscar.
And she won the Golden Globe.

Speaker 13 So I pretty much knew after that, okay, this was a fun ride. I got nominated.

Speaker 2 Sorry, Dee Dee.

Speaker 3 I didn't do it for you.

Speaker 1 But now I'm sisters with you in this. Right.

Speaker 13 Either way, there would have been a connection. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Were you the first black actor to win a Razzie?

Speaker 1 Probably.

Speaker 1 I was the first one to bring their Oscar. That's for sure.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 Somewhere there was a first in that.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

Speaker 1 If you dare.

Speaker 1 This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. The website for Armchair Expert.
I was too afraid to try.

Speaker 1 I didn't want to build it.

Speaker 12 I didn't think I had the skill set.

Speaker 4 But Rob got on there.

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You do not have to be tech savvy.

Speaker 2 They have a really cool feature. It's called the Blueprint AI feature.
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Speaker 2 Like in our case, showcase the podcast, obviously, host our archive, that kind of thing. And it builds you a custom website that actually looks really legit.

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Speaker 1 From 771 with Jack Black.

Speaker 1 Okay, so who breaks out the blotter or the Devil's dandra first?

Speaker 12 I was introduced to LSD. I guess I was maybe 14 or maybe 13.
It was a friend of mine.

Speaker 1 I'm not looking for a name. I'm just curious.
Were you hanging with a 26-year-old dude that was a tradesman?

Speaker 12 He was older. I did look up to him like a big brother figure.
I had a thing where I wanted a father figure, even though I had a great dad, but I wanted the dark dad.

Speaker 12 I wanted the one that was going to show me the ways of the dark side.

Speaker 12 And this guy filled in that role. We did acid.
And I remember that night laughing as hard as I'd ever laughed and having this strange feeling of being whole for the first time.

Speaker 12 And suddenly this big, dark, mysterious universe that I didn't know how I fit into, it all felt right. Laughing till I cried and having kind of a weird spiritual experience.
But then it led to...

Speaker 12 the darkest day or night of my life where it wouldn't stop and it stopped being fun.

Speaker 12 And it was so bad that I was locked in this insane brain prison where all I could see was chess pieces going off into infinity, playing a game with myself.

Speaker 12 And I had this terror that I was never going to break free of it.

Speaker 1 And it was like, as good as that first hour and a half was, it wasn't worth it.

Speaker 12 And thank God I made it through the night. I don't think I slept a minute.

Speaker 1 Once the thought enters your mind, this may be permanent, the second you have that, you're fucking cooked for hours. Yeah, you're like, oh shit.

Speaker 1 You're remembering stories you heard growing up of, like, you know, Mike Benner. I saw him at the gas station.
He's been tripping for four years.

Speaker 1 You have this one story, and you're like, oh, wow, this is happening to me. I'm going to be him.

Speaker 2 So you stopped doing it after that?

Speaker 12 I might have done it again after that.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 1 I think I got some bad acid. That's what I heard.
Sometimes you get the bad one.

Speaker 12 There was a few hallucinogenic experiences, mushrooms and acid.

Speaker 1 But Coke, now that's a sexy

Speaker 1 partner.

Speaker 12 Well, I was just down to clown with anything that my big bro or my crew of heavy metal maniacs were into at the time. It wasn't a gang, but it was like a brotherhood.
There was some Coke.

Speaker 12 You know, when you first take it, there's an initial rush and a feeling. It's similar in that a doorway opens in your brain and you're like, I fucking get it now.

Speaker 12 And I have a lot of brilliant things to say really fast.

Speaker 12 And you go for hours and hours and you say some things where you're talking about love and you're talking about connections and you're talking about things in the future that you're going to do.

Speaker 12 And it's, in retrospect, so embarrassing.

Speaker 1 It is.

Speaker 12 Thank God there was no recording, but it actually would have been nice if someone had recorded it just to play back as a cautionary tale of how ridiculous you can sound.

Speaker 1 I witnessed myself a single time I have been recorded by my girlfriend and it's a bummer.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think that might be the lowest feeling I've had is looking at my face and going, how I thought I was coming across versus what I'm seeing now. What a gap.

Speaker 1 But I would say the thing I liked about it most is I'm not optimistic. I'm very pessimistic.
Couple toots of that stuff and I'm like, you know what? Everything is going to work out.

Speaker 12 I got spiritual. I like talking about God and stuff that I don't usually talk about and I don't really feel a connection to.

Speaker 12 I'm definitely leaning atheist, but for some reason, once I get all coked up or whatever the drug may be.

Speaker 1 There's a version that brings out a nice side of yourself, which is like, I'm so interested in whoever I'm talking to. Someone will be telling me that their father was a firefighter.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, wait a minute. And this is sincere.
I'm like, oh my God. So your dad was like

Speaker 1 a firefighter? Yeah. And I'm in it.
This guy's dad was a hero. Tell me more.
And I want to know about the movie of their life where their hero dad was. I already want that.
You don't want to.

Speaker 1 Imagine it squared.

Speaker 12 It gives you a brief energy that lets you delve deeper than you normally would with other people. Maybe that's why Freud supposedly used it a lot in sessions

Speaker 12 so that they could go deeper than they usually would about themselves and about the nooks and crannies of their personality.

Speaker 1 Was the move to Crosswords? Crossroads. Crosswords.
We should open a competing school across the street called Crosswords.

Speaker 1 But were your parents sensing we need to put him somewhere else and get him out of this crew?

Speaker 12 Yeah, but in the midst of all of that turmoil and darkness, there was someone from the crew. This dude was into this

Speaker 12 person who we had all met when we got on a bus and went to the arcade in Westwood. It was called West World back when arcades were a thing.
Play your favorite tabletop video games.

Speaker 12 And we met these girls and we both fell for the same girl and he kind of called Dibs or whatever. And I was like, Dibs Schmibs.
And then I started a romance on the side and he didn't know.

Speaker 12 And then when he found out, he wanted to kill me. And then he did beat the shit out of me it wasn't over yet there was going to be some more ass kicking

Speaker 12 my parents just noticed that shit was going sideways and they're like we got to get you the fuck out of there and i was like yeah i agree i don't want to be here anymore we're so relieved because you maybe wouldn't have sent up the white flag would have happened there so i went to this little tiny school called Poseidon that was on Pico between Bundy and Barrington.

Speaker 12 It's not there anymore. And it was a school with a lot of kids that had been kicked out of their schools from all over the city.

Speaker 12 And it was kind of a last chance kind of school.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was the island of broken toys. Yeah.
Misfit island.

Speaker 12 But it had some great teachers in it.

Speaker 12 There was a theater teacher named Deb Devine who I latched on to, and she taught us all improvisation games and viola spoiling games and got us all thinking about telling stories.

Speaker 12 And it was kind of like theater therapy.

Speaker 12 You could work out some of your demons by playing roles and just coming off the top of your head with shit you're going to say to the other person in the scene. It was kind of amazing.

Speaker 12 And she is still a great theater force in Los Angeles. She's got a theater called 21st Street Theater here in downtown L.A.

Speaker 12 She has outreach programs to kids all over the city who come and learn theater. She's an awesome lady.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 12 There was also like a therapist in the school. There's only like 20 kids in the school, but the therapist was a bodybuilder also.

Speaker 1 Oh, wonderful. Wonderful.
Because sometimes he would have to defend himself. There's some rough characters in this school.
Messages. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Were there smoking breaks built in? I'm being sincere.

Speaker 12 There was smoking. And there were kids going in to see him and talk to him.
And I was like, what's going on in there? Because there were some kids that it was compulsory.

Speaker 12 They had to go talk to the therapist a certain amount of times a week. And I was not in that group.
And I was jealous. I was like, I want to talk to the muscle building therapist.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 12 I talked to him just on this. I was like, how do you get into there? And it's like, you can come in if you want.
You want to set an appointment? I was like, yeah. And I went in there.

Speaker 12 I just wanted to see what was going on in here. And we got to talking.

Speaker 12 And then it only took me about a minute before I started spilling my guts about how I had stolen money from my mom and all the shit that I was carrying around, how guilty I was for doing drugs.

Speaker 12 The drugs, but mainly the betrayal of my mom, who just was unconditional love for me. And she didn't know that I had stolen money to get the drugs.

Speaker 10 And I just bawled my eyes out.

Speaker 12 I cried so hard.

Speaker 1 And it felt so good.

Speaker 12 Because I grew up with a Jewish upbringing and I learned a lot of my value system there, but I didn't have confessional.

Speaker 12 And there there was something about just sitting there with this therapist and just confessing my sins or whatever you want to call it, my guilt, that felt so cleansing.

Speaker 1 It's a shame. Yes.

Speaker 12 I saw him for the next year once a week, and it was like a major turning point for me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's really lucky.

Speaker 1 From 786 with Vince Vaughan.

Speaker 1 You guys did a couple's retreat, and I was there just hanging for like the whole six weeks. We were friendly to each other.

Speaker 1 But in my mind, we took a flight during the press tour and you and I were the only people that didn't fall asleep. We were flying to like Australia.
I remember it.

Speaker 1 And we're chatting, chatting, chatting, and it's fine. We're both awake.
And then at some point, I talk about being in the learning disabled room.

Speaker 1 And I feel like I saw a whole new version of you come online. And you and I just really got into what it was like to get called out of the classroom and go down to that room.

Speaker 10 My favorite movie, as I saw as a kid, because I thought that was me, was One Flew of the Cuckoo's Nest.

Speaker 1 Oh, sure, sure, sure. Did you love that movie? Yeah, loved.

Speaker 10 I was funny. I got along with people.
Kids really followed me. I wasn't going in the most popular crowd, although I got along really well with them too, but I'm going to play Dungeons and Dragons.

Speaker 10 I'm going to wrestle. And I got along with people.
But when I went to that class, I had a, well, they labeled this stuff. It's a longer conversation.

Speaker 10 I'm not in agreeance with the journey that the government and everyone's taking with how we handle it.

Speaker 10 Cause I think everyone just learns differently and no one's going to line up right next to each other. You could probably label indistinct how we learn so differently.

Speaker 10 I had an interesting journey later in life with that. But as it pertained to my childhood experience, when you're younger, they want to have you tested.
So you go to a psychiatrist when you're five.

Speaker 10 And I remember thinking, they're going to take me from my family. That's what I think is at stake.

Speaker 1 I'm like, oh, I get it. If I get these questions wrong, you're going to Juvie.

Speaker 10 I don't know where I'm going, but maybe I was in first grade. So I was six at the oldest.
But I remember thinking like, this is really some high stakes.

Speaker 10 Cause if I don't know the answers or I mess this up, I'm going away. Like, I'm leaving my parents behind.
And my parents never explained. They said, no, everything's fine.

Speaker 10 The school wants to run some tests for how you act in class.

Speaker 1 I'm like, all right.

Speaker 10 So I remember, maybe this pertains to what we're talking about. So I'm a fucking six-year-old answering questions as if it was the law, as if I wrote the book on it.
Where does paper come from?

Speaker 10 And my point of view would be, well, we all know trees.

Speaker 10 The trees is where paper comes from, and that's what they do with that.

Speaker 1 So I wasn't just answering it.

Speaker 10 I was answering it like I was fooling them that that was the right answer and they go is that it then says the trees i go in the machines then they do the machines

Speaker 10 and the guy had polio who was interviewing me his hand was like this well when i was four i put my hand at an electric can opener i was watching my mom i put my finger i pull it down and it's just blood everywhere

Speaker 10 and so i have a split in my nail on my right hand that i still have which is just dead skin it didn't grow back right hold on a second

Speaker 2 are you guys doing a mick a matchi

Speaker 1 You see how that's splitting right there? Yeah, that varies in how split it goes down.

Speaker 10 See, mine's a beautiful, like, that's a good thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yours is a hardcore. Yeah, mine's hardcore, right?

Speaker 10 So when you're young, kids will go, oh, now that's going to be a problem with me because that's not happening to me, right? So, anyway, that was a gift for me as my life went on.

Speaker 10 At the time, I hated it, but it really gave me a lot of empathy for that feeling of being attacked or persecuted for having something different that's not a choice. Yeah.

Speaker 10 So I remember connecting with this guy guy where I'm staring at his hand, and I go to him, don't feel bad about your hand.

Speaker 1 I have this too.

Speaker 1 And I reached out

Speaker 10 and I showed him my finger, and he looked at me. And you were six, I was like six because they were driving me from the suburbs, Buffalo Grove, to the city to see this guy.

Speaker 10 And at the time, they were just saying, Is he hyperactive?

Speaker 10 I guess I was borderline hyperactive for whatever that meant for a six-year-old in class who was fucking living on sugar, hop tarts, hop tarts, frosted freights for breakfast.

Speaker 1 I I guess I had a hard time resisting a joke and sitting still. But anyway.

Speaker 1 Were you also way too big?

Speaker 10 No, I was kind of tall, younger, and then I evened out and then I got bigger.

Speaker 10 But I just remember at that point, that was what launched it, where at first they said maybe he would be good to take a Ridland.

Speaker 10 My parents, thankfully, I think I did one and I didn't react well, but my dad, and I think my mom said it too, they're like, my kid's not going through life doped up, which is a great thing because you have to learn how to process stuff.

Speaker 10 And so the answer became I would go to a class, but not like these other kids. I didn't live in the class.
I was in general pop.

Speaker 1 Right, right, right, right. Regular school.

Speaker 10 But I would get one period a week to go. I had a speech therapist and then I'd have to go to this class.
So when I go to this class, I figured it out.

Speaker 10 It was really good for me because as I got older, then I would be like in fourth grade. And there's a bunch of kids playing Candyland.

Speaker 10 I'm like, what the fuck is everyone playing Candyland for? Like, that's a game you play at five.

Speaker 1 Game's a joke.

Speaker 10 And I first was kind of harsh on these kids because I was distancing myself. I'm like, I'm not one of these fucking kids.
But there was a girl that was super tall. She didn't talk.

Speaker 10 But it reminded me of like Chief. Yeah.

Speaker 10 I figured out as a kid, I was like, well, no wonder she's not talking. She stands out so much.

Speaker 1 Yes. She's so visible.
She's so tall.

Speaker 10 She's got bad posture that she just didn't want to stick out anymore. There was nothing wrong with her.

Speaker 10 She just wasn't comfortable. And then there was the kid who was more rural than all of us, but his family was like agriculture.
So he had flannels and work boots and shit.

Speaker 10 So I started to figure out a lot of these kids could have been emotional or just social cues weren't there, but they were great kids. If you had a friendship with those kids, like it meant something.

Speaker 10 So I became super protective and I started including them like in recess games. And I was so confident and so okay getting in a fight or verbally getting and stuff.

Speaker 10 I was like, no, fucking Megan's playing kickball.

Speaker 1 She's on my team. Here we go.

Speaker 10 And so I started to have that. So it was a gift because I knew that feeling.

Speaker 10 The difference was if you have some level of confidence or self-belief despite the obvious information you really can go super far and really accomplish a lot because you have to be really resilient and work really hard but the poor kids that don't have support from a parent or don't have any belief can get absolutely devastated oh ruined i would imagine through different interviews and even the notion that you had loved the stephen king book you loved as a kid.

Speaker 1 Rage. Yeah.
I saw kids get literally destroyed. There's no going past what happened to them in junior high and high school through bullying and the horror that can be.

Speaker 1 I just saw kids get fucking ground up and destroyed and had so much sympathy for them. It broke my heart.
It was all around.

Speaker 10 We also had someone who spoke faith over us where some of these kids, like they'll go to the parents and say, well, I think we all know Larry has a hard time focusing.

Speaker 10 If they're wearing a name tag that says expert and you're dealing with parents, especially back then where there's not a lot of information,

Speaker 10 then they're going to go along with these recommendations.

Speaker 10 I still see it today where there's parents who go along with recommendations that are terrible recommendations just because they're the popular idea of the time.

Speaker 10 And that kid then is sort of believed to have not skills, but it's always that way. That could be athletics.
That could be music.

Speaker 10 Usually what you find is the person that has some sort of obstacle that's going to, for whatever reason, be resilient and come up with a psychotic program is the one that kind of can break through and have better mastery in self-awareness because you have to earn that, I think, by overcoming that.

Speaker 10 Sometimes when it's real easy, they're not forced to do that. And so when that finally happens in life, they don't necessarily have those resources because they just haven't been in that position.

Speaker 2 But that's a tremendous amount of empathy for a six-year-old. Most kids looked around and they were like, yikes, that's bad, but I have to protect myself.

Speaker 2 At that age, we're all just trying to survive elementary school and middle school, trying to get through it. And so to bring people in is very rare.

Speaker 10 I was raised with that. My mom would be like, hey, someone's new in school.
It would be pretty neat if you brought them to the lunch table. It was just in the water in my house that way.

Speaker 1 Lovely.

Speaker 10 I just was part of who I was.

Speaker 1 But I also think you hit it on the head earlier, which is you were giving people what you wanted. Was there an inciting incident other than that experience, which is profound? I kind of belong there.

Speaker 1 Like, I couldn't read.

Speaker 1 I didn't learn to read till fifth grade right i have dyslexia and those hieroglyphics it's really nuts what that looks like to me i got over it it's fine and i agree i'm glad i had the whole journey and then figuring out i was good at some things was like what a gust of wind in the sails oh my god i'm good at math oh my god i'm not stupid i thought i wasn't stupid when i'm talking to dudes on the playground i'm verbally advanced why is it i'm so stupid here yet i'm not on the playground i feel so confused did you feel stupid or you knew you were bright well i felt like as soon as you sat in that desk and they started writing on the chalkboard chalkboard, I'm like, I'm out to see and it's compounding daily.

Speaker 1 And now we're another step down the path. And at some point, I threw in the towel.
I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to get this. I just have to act like I'm paying attention.

Speaker 10 That's similar to how I was answering those questions. Yes.
You took on a survival mode. You were acting like you were overly on top of what the teacher wanted.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 10 Isn't that crazy? And then at the same time, you really needed to say, I'm confused here. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then Dax, and there was someone holding a slip and then I'd leave the classroom and then I'd go to that room with everyone.

Speaker 10 Did you ever have the experience where you knew there was a progress report coming home? You could hear the moment when a parent received it.

Speaker 10 You could hear their reaction of how angry they were that there was a progress report.

Speaker 10 Do you remember the sound of your parents' feet when they came in from work walking and you knew there was an issue that was about to be addressed?

Speaker 1 I got blessed in that my mom, luckily for me, thought I was a genius. She's like, yeah, I don't know what to say about this report card, but I know this kid's a genius.
So she didn't sweat me.

Speaker 10 We were fortunate to have belief in us.

Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 10 And the kids that didn't, they started to believe the worst of themselves.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and they get destroyed.

Speaker 1 From 696 with Heidi Klum.

Speaker 1 Okay, we've talked too much about it, but I just have a specific question about it, and that is Halloween.

Speaker 1 So do you already know this about Heidi that she goes so hard for Halloween, probably harder than anyone in the world? Don't.

Speaker 3 What rock have you been in?

Speaker 1 I know. It's so embarrassing.
Ah, God,

Speaker 2 we can still hang out, right?

Speaker 1 Well, it'll be part of the fun of the reality show.

Speaker 3 You have a little look at me when I was a rainworm, okay?

Speaker 1 A rainworm? Yes.

Speaker 3 Listen. Please look at my rainworm.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 Look at me when I was 95 years old. That's also one of my favorites.
I turned 40 and people were like, wow, so you were like 40, really old now. You should stop modeling.

Speaker 3 And then I was like, dang, I guess they're right. And then that got me thinking about I'm going to make myself really old.
And that was amazing.

Speaker 3 It took like 13, 14 hours to make me that old because every part of my skin that was exposed, they had to age.

Speaker 1 I hate to say this. There will be some listeners that, like Monica, haven't seen the Halloween costumes.
I learned it. I learned of it today.

Speaker 1 Monica, whatever you're imagining,

Speaker 1 you have to times it by 10. So she went as whatever she called it, a rainworm.
It looks like a fucking intestine.

Speaker 13 No, a rainworm.

Speaker 1 No, it looked like a rainworm. A rain worm.
Okay.

Speaker 3 Like a real proper rainworm that you see when it's raining and they come out of the ground and they're out there.

Speaker 1 Or like the lower GI. That is also what a worm looks like.
She is in this like nine foot long

Speaker 1 fucking

Speaker 1 that looks like an intestine. Her face is gone.
There's no face. She's got her eyes are poking through.

Speaker 1 My face was glued onto the walls of it.

Speaker 3 My hands were tied down to the side of my body. When I would fall over, I couldn't get up.

Speaker 3 So I said to my husband, please, when I fall over and I'm landing on my face, don't leave me on my face because it's loud. People are like, Heidi over here.
Heidi, fall over here, look over here.

Speaker 3 So when I'm like down,

Speaker 3 when I'm down, like, and I'm on my face.

Speaker 1 But by the way, they wouldn't even know if you were leaving. I don't know if that's suffocating.
She's gone in this costume, Monica. You can't see her.
Do you see it?

Speaker 1 When I tell you that this costume is as complicated as the Jabba the Hutt costume in Star Wars, it's that level of prosthetic and insanity.

Speaker 1 Look at her face. Try to find her face.
This is incredible. Now that we know what you're doing, so we know that the one costume that's going is 95, and you looked like you're saying a rainworm.

Speaker 1 I think it happens to look like intestines.

Speaker 3 Do you think that looks like intestines?

Speaker 2 I do, because I thought you were saying ringworm. That's like an intestinal disease, and it could be that, too.
Yep.

Speaker 1 So, but you thought it's a rainwater. It's very, very sad.
No, it's unwormed. It's very clearly a rainworm.
No one says rainworm. You would just say worm, right? You're talking about the worms.

Speaker 1 But there's so many different worms.

Speaker 1 There certainly are.

Speaker 3 No, there are worms that come out when it rains. Yes.

Speaker 1 I think in America when they don't have that.

Speaker 1 No, normal worms. Yeah, normal worms.
They come off. And if we want to talk about a different word.

Speaker 3 Not a maggot. Right.

Speaker 1 But we don't say maggot out.

Speaker 3 No, a maggot is not coming out of the ground. A maggot is in food.

Speaker 1 I know that. What I'm telling you is no one would call a maggot a worm.
You don't need to differentiate.

Speaker 3 Right. And you don't say maggot worm.

Speaker 1 Ah, okay. That's what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 3 Oh my God, the light bulb. Did you see it? Yes.

Speaker 1 It took me a minute. Spirit's just a worm.
That's standard, what you were.

Speaker 2 But I kind of like that she call it. You can call it a rain worm.

Speaker 1 It's very cute that you're doing it.

Speaker 3 I thought you always had to specify it. Like with pasta, it's linguini.

Speaker 6 This old version of you is

Speaker 1 crazy. Now that we've been brought up to speed about these Halloween costumes, my question is, many, many women on Halloween like to

Speaker 3 dress as a nurse.

Speaker 1 Well, they like to express a sexiness that they don't otherwise get to do in real life. And I think it's very telling that you went as a forgive me, an intestine, and a 95-year-old woman.

Speaker 3 And my question is, do you think it's because you've had your fill of being sexy and that now it's like let's go be a rain worm for me it's more creative i'm a creative person so i also don't want to do costumes that i have seen so i try to really think outside of the box you did you're doing great last year i was like okay this worm I know was so epic that I was like, how am I going to top this worm?

Speaker 3 So then I thought I have to do something with multiple people.

Speaker 3 I became a peacock where I'm just the face in the front body of the peacock and I have like 10 people who were the eyes of the feather in the rest of the body and I'm climbing on this and we did this whole beautiful dance until I then become this peacock to just give people something else again where they're like, oh my god, that's cool.

Speaker 3 Or I want people to have an emotion when they see that. And I love also when girls want to be a sexy nurse and they feel like they can't do this in their normal life.

Speaker 3 And then that gives them the freedom, the okay to try something that they normally don't feel comfortable in. I feel like I'm kind of always doing the sexy nurse without being the nurse.

Speaker 3 If I go to a party or walking down the catwalk somewhere, it's like...

Speaker 1 Kristen does the same thing. Kristen's so celebrated for being beautiful that she does things that are so gross that only she would really be comfortable doing.

Speaker 1 Like she'll wear a bald cap and she looks insane. Or she has a bathing suit that looks like a man's hairy chest and it's so gross.
It is.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 2 Kristen also said that about her wedding because they got married at the courthouse and and she wore just like a cute outfit and people asked like, oh, you didn't want to get dressed up?

Speaker 2 And she was like, I get to do that a lot for my job. So this got to be a different thing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but it's more like art for me. I feel like I'm like a live sculpture.
One year, for example, I wanted people to see what it entails.

Speaker 3 I know I always do like little videos and that I put up there. But one year I was putting myself in a window in Manhattan.
And I started at like eight o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 3 And I had all the artists around me gluing all the stuff on. and I'm sitting right by the window and people could walk by this window all day long.

Speaker 1 It's like performance. All day.

Speaker 3 All day they could come by and they could see what happens. Like five, six hours later, I was still sitting there.
They were gluing stuff on me because I wanted people to see how this all happens.

Speaker 1 You know, it's like a sculpture at the end.

Speaker 3 Then they just rip it all off. It's just for one night and then it's gone.

Speaker 1 Well, what I like is this reinforces the point you made. a few minutes ago, which is like you just pursue stuff because you pursue them.
Sometimes they generate money, sometimes they don't.

Speaker 1 This is obviously a humongous expense for you to to do this and you're not going to get any money back from doing that i never have but you get joy out of it i do and you always have something to talk about on talk show in the pinch all you gotta do is flash that fucking picture and you got like six minutes right there but i never knew in the beginning how it would grow into that over 20 years now i've been doing this maybe 23 years when do you start planning now

Speaker 2 now and do you go to a specific party every year i make it every year it's your party it's my party

Speaker 1 and she has quest love quest love is there every year i love quest

Speaker 2 Amazing. This is so fun.

Speaker 3 It is. But when I first came to New York, I didn't feel like there was a party where people are dressing up.

Speaker 3 You would go to a party and they put a little red clown nose on their nose. And then it's like, I'm a clown.
And I'm like, no, you're not.

Speaker 3 It just was like so boring. You know, I was always like, where is the magic? Why is no one giving it some? So then I was like, I'm going to take that over.
I'm going to do this.

Speaker 3 And as the host, I thought I have to really show people how far you can push your imagination.

Speaker 3 and I feel like literally every year people who are coming their costumes also are getting better and better. People are also planning months in advance already.

Speaker 3 People are DMing me and they're like, oh my god, I'm coming to the party. And I'm already like, you just wait when you see what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 I can't imagine this party, no one can move, no one's arms work, people are falling down staircases. No, my husband shit show.

Speaker 3 My husband was a gigantic egg because

Speaker 1 this is like a black mirror episode in a way.

Speaker 3 No, my husband was like, what am I going to be if you're a peacock?

Speaker 3 And I was like, Well, we're literally sitting at the dinner table, and I have this chandelier that has all these eggs hanging off of it. They're real eggs, all from Easter.

Speaker 3 Like, we always blow eggs out. You know, you poke holes in either side, and you blow all the stuff through, and then you paint them, and then we put them on strings.

Speaker 3 And so, we have like 50 eggs probably on this thing. And I'm looking at these eggs.
I'm like, I think it should be an egg. It should be the peacock's egg.

Speaker 3 And I know that a peacock is a male and shouldn't have eggs, but that's fine.

Speaker 1 We can probably take eggs in there. No one there is gonna going to be a ornithologist and call you out on this.

Speaker 3 So he ran around like a gigantic egg.

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Speaker 14 Hey there, Armchairies.

Speaker 8 Guess what?

Speaker 1 It's Mel Robbins.

Speaker 14 I'm popping in here taking out my own ad. Holy cow, Dax, Monica, and I, I don't want this conversation to end, and I'm so glad you're here with us.

Speaker 1 And the other thing, I can't believe, Dax loves the let them theory.

Speaker 3 He can't stop talking about it.

Speaker 14 I hope you're loving listening as much as I love having you here. And I also know since you love listening to Armchair Expert, you know what you're going to love listening to?

Speaker 1 The Let Them Theory audiobook.

Speaker 8 And guess who reads it?

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Speaker 8 And even if you've read the book, guess what?

Speaker 3 The audiobook is different.

Speaker 14 I tell different stories. I riff.
I cry.

Speaker 8 You're going to love it because it's going to feel like I'm right there next to you.

Speaker 14 We're in this together as we learn to stop controlling other people.

Speaker 14 So thanks again for listening to this episode of Armchair Expert and check out the audiobook version of the Let Them Theory, read by yours truly, available now on Audible.

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