How To Fight Trump’s Anti-American Agenda on Immigration and Refugees

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Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media.

I'm your host, Stacey Abrams.

Today, we are going to turn our focus to immigration.

This is a very complicated topic because it contains a variety of complex issues that are often interrelated and in tension.

As a nation founded by immigrants, we have long struggled with the fact that we need external labor.

There is the compassion that so many of us hold for those seeking a better life, and yet there's a fear of those who might bring harm or an animosity towards those who are considered too different to include.

Politicians, in particular, approach the topic with trepidation, and many among us conflate the blaring headlines that are designed to stoke anger or nativism without helping us to understand what exactly we're talking about.

We have a responsibility though, because we are watching the emergence of a terrifying jingoism, this despicable response that makes us believe that we are better than, and it uses immigration as its war cry.

Trump began his candidacy in 2016 with racist, anti-immigrant invective that set the stage for a presidency defined by bigotry and fear, fueled by hatred and by hypocrisy.

His second campaign was even worse, giving credence and volume to ugly nativist smears of immigrant communities, and he galvanized his party and his supporters to enforce his xenophobic vision for the country by electing him as president.

In policy terms, Trump has repeatedly borrowed authoritarian tactics to demonize entire communities,

this time launching the largest mass detention and deportation effort in U.S.

history by his own admission.

He promised that on day one of his administration, he would sign executive orders to completely overhaul the U.S.

immigration system.

And as regular listeners of the show know, I have repeatedly and consistently pointed out that Donald Trump has a habit of mendacity, that he has a hard time telling the truth.

But on this issue, he has unfortunately stayed true to his word.

Just three weeks into his presidency, Trump has signed 10 immigration-related executive orders, putting a cruel target on the backs of all immigrants, not just those with serious criminal histories, as he claims.

This, however, is his return to form on not being honest about his intent.

For example, Native Americans, military officials, and documented migrants have been detained in recent raids.

Why?

Because one of the executive orders directs ICE officials to aggressively increase arrest with a daily target of 1,200 to 1,500 people.

And this number includes emergency workers and those in the process of securing citizenship through legal channels.

Hours after his inauguration, he reversed the Biden-era sensitive location policy, which had prevented ICE raids in places like schools, houses of worship, and hospitals.

He's deployed U.S.

military aircraft to deport detained migrants back to Latin America, and he has authorized Guantanamo Bay as a holding facility for deported migrants, an act decried by Cuba.

Trump is attempting to end birthright citizenship, a right that is guaranteed by the United States Constitution.

And his malice doesn't end at our southern border.

It extends into international waters, affecting asylum seekers and refugees that are fleeing war, famine, religious oppression, and sexual violence.

People who attempt to enter the United States through legal channels.

Trump has indefinitely paused the U.S.

refugee admission program, which, according to CBS, left 22,000 refugees stranded.

These were refugees who were already approved, who had waited 18 to 24 months, who had endured endless rounds of interviews, security screenings, and medical checks, only to be blocked at the last second from fleeing oppression and finding safety and security.

That's why for today's episode, I've enlisted the help of not one, but two experts.

First, we will have Nina Gupta, the Director of Policy at the American Immigration Council, who will break down what's happening on the domestic front.

Then we'll speak to Jeremy Knindyke, President of Refugees International, to walk us through why America's position on asylum and refugees should not get lost in the debate.

Naina Gupta, welcome to Assembly Required.

Thanks so much for having me, Stacey.

We are delighted to have you.

So we knew that Trump was going to aggressively move to implement anti-immigration policies as soon as he took office, similar to the first time around.

And he told us what a lot of them were going to be.

But it's still been devastating to watch.

So I want to start with a basic question.

How much damage can he do in four years?

Thanks, Stacey.

Yeah, it's a really tough question in this moment because we've already seen so much damage in just two weeks.

The reality is that under U.S.

immigration law, the president and executive branch do have a significant amount of discretion in how they enforce civil immigration laws and how they bring to bear criminal penalties on top of the U.S.

immigration system.

So, the short answer is: there's a lot of damage the administration can do to undermining this system and targeting all immigrants in the United States, regardless of their specific status.

What will matter is, you know, how willing is Congress going to be to let him go down this path toward mass deportation?

Or will they hold the line?

Will more people come out in protest like we saw this past weekend where thousands of folks around the country pushed back?

Will we hear from state and local leaders who know that this kind of federal policy doesn't help public safety?

It undermines the prosperity of their communities.

Those three areas are where we can look to see a holding of the line in addition to legal challenges in our federal courts.

So you mentioned the different status positions that people hold.

Can you talk a little bit?

Because we see all of these conflated.

And I think it's important for our listeners to understand exactly what we mean when we talk about immigration in the U.S.

So, you know, we've heard the Trump administration market their plans as focusing on criminal immigrants.

The reality is

that their proposals that we've seen in the past two weeks impact people who are here with lawful status.

They impact non-citizens but who've come through humanitarian programs to be in the United States.

They impact people who are here temporarily on visas.

They impact folks who are trying to come to the U.S.

to seek protection while fleeing persecution and violence, and they impact the approximately 13 million undocumented immigrants who live here.

Now, when I say undocumented immigrant, what I mean are people who are living here in our communities, who are neighbors, friends,

but who are in violation of civil immigration law.

There are about 13 million of these folks, as I said, and 80% of them have been here for 15 years or longer.

Something a lot of Americans don't know is that undocumented immigrants pay taxes.

They contribute over $40 billion in federal taxes and another 29 in state and local taxes.

They fill key sectors of our labor market.

They're partners to U.S.

citizens.

They raise U.S.

citizen children.

They are very much integrated into the fabric of our country and society.

And unfortunately, Trump's rhetoric has conflated those folks who, again, are in violation of civil law, they don't have the correct papers, as people who are criminals, when in fact, these are folks who pose absolutely no public safety threat.

Fewer than one in 10 undocumented people even have a criminal record.

And those who do are folks who have them for traffic violations or civil immigration type violations.

In other words, these are overwhelmingly people who live in our country and who pose no threat to anybody.

And they are being swept in under these Trump immigration orders, in addition to other people who have lawful status.

So let's talk about the lawful status for a moment.

When we understand that people are here legally and you describe the impact of these executive orders, what recourse do these immigrants have in our court of law, given the discretion that you laid out earlier?

Yeah, I mean, the recourse is narrow and we're seeing the Trump administration try to overstep its discretion and and legal authority to take away the rights these folks have to make a case in court to stay in the country.

So, for example, we've seen in the past few days the Trump administration signal stripping lawful protections from people from certain countries like Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua.

When the administration does that, these are folks who will now be vulnerable to deportation.

If they are put into deportation proceedings, they will have an opportunity under the Immigration and Nationality Act to go to court before an immigration judge and try to claim some kind of relief from deportation, to make a case for staying in the U.S.

by accessing some other form of protection like asylum or other forms of relief that the system offers.

The problem is that

the court system that we have in our current immigration system is incredibly backlogged.

There are over 2 million cases in our immigration court backlog right now.

And so even getting a day in court for many of these folks will be incredibly difficult.

Not to mention, of course, that this is a system where there is no right to an appointed lawyer, where over half of the people who go to court don't even have a lawyer to translate for them this incredibly complex area of law.

So aside from the logistical and accounting impossibilities of deporting 13, 14, 15 million people, and you referenced it a bit earlier.

What kind of impact would deporting even a fraction of those who are here, who are undocumented, have on our communities, on our economy, and on the nation as a whole?

Yeah, great and important question, Stacey.

So just to start, even the threat of mass deportation, right?

Even attempting to deport a million people per year, which would be more than what we've ever seen the United States government do, that threat alone has a chilling effect on the ground level, right?

We've already seen in these first two weeks, citrus farmers not showing up to work in California, other farm workers in Florida, New York not showing up, people not going to school, folks in Chicago hiding in their attics instead of showing up to their jobs.

That has an immediate impact on our local economies.

And many of those folks won't get swept up, but just being worried that they might means that they don't participate in our workforce.

They don't participate in day-to-day life.

Now, when we think about the longer-term effect of this, it's worth noting, right?

The 13 million undocumented people living here, they represent one in seven construction workers, one in seven agricultural workers.

In Texas, around 50% of construction workers are here in violation of civil immigration law, even though they're contributing richly to that industry in Texas.

Deporting that many folks or scaring them enough to not show up, that means higher food prices, higher housing costs.

It means not having a workforce for health care aid workers.

Those are real effects we'll start to feel quickly at the local economic level and over time.

in our national GDP and on a national economic scale.

Now, this is all putting aside the actual direct financial cost of trying to deport this many people.

At the American Immigration Council, we released a report last year where we looked at the cost of arresting, detaining, processing, and removing a million people per year.

And over a 10-year period, that would cost over a trillion dollars.

Those are dollars that could instead, of course, be used to start

Head Start programs all around the country to build affordable housing.

These are dollars that are being used for enforcement of of immigration instead of other solutions that folks have been seeking or that we understand them to be seeking from the results of this election.

And the final point I'll make about this, these costs, I mean, all this money and time to try to pull this off and none of that offers a meaningful solution to a broken immigration system, right?

It actually inserts more chaos and it wastes law enforcement resources in a way that does not make anybody safer at the end of the day.

Do we have any current data on how many detentions and deportations they've actually already carried out?

Right now, we know that ICE under the Trump administration has set a target of approximately 1,000 arrests per day.

In less than two weeks, we've seen ICE as a sub-agency make around 12,000 immigration arrests meeting their approximate goal.

We don't know whether they'll continue to meet that goal, whether that number will increase by day, but we know that this is more arrests per day and per month than we've seen from the US government in some time, and that they are doing this in particular by using community arrests, non-targeted enforcement actions,

and are starting to use worksite raids.

We don't know how many of these folks are actually being placed into removal proceedings or how many will actually be deported.

That's information we hope that the Department of Homeland Security will make public or at least share with Congress.

Right now, what we mostly have are the number of people who are being arrested.

We are recording this on Monday, February 3rd.

And last Friday, Trump's order for U.S.

military aircraft to deport detained migrants took effect, again, without Republican objection.

And so far, we know six planes have transported migrants to Latin America.

A U.S.

official noted this is the first time in recent memory that military aircraft has been used for such removal.

Why is this significant?

And can you talk about the decision made by Guatemala regarding migrants and the ongoing conversation with Venezuela?

Yeah, so what's significant about the Trump administration leaning on resources from other federal agencies and the U.S.

military is it's their way to get over these procedural and resource obstacles, right?

If they don't have funding from Congress for DHS to initiate this many deportations,

they're looking to other agencies, to the U.S.

military, to fill in with those resources.

So we should be alarmed when we see unprecedented use of the military for enforcing laws in the interior of our U.S., because that's a kind of authority that allows the Trump administration to follow through on this agenda faster than ever before.

And in terms of negotiations with other countries, right, what we're seeing is the Trump administration say to certain Latin American countries, First of all, we don't care what your politics are.

We'll negotiate with you if you're going to take more deportees back home.

And if you say no and you push back the way that we've seen, for example, Colombia do, then we're going to threaten you with the use of tariffs that will be economically crippling for your country and your people.

One of the pieces that's most terrifying to me is that Trump, as well as his fellow Republicans, are using these mechanisms to evade the checks and balances that are often the difference between autocracies and democracies.

They are trying to leverage what they can do without having to abide by the laws as they exist.

And one of the ways that he's attempting to do do this is the announced plan to use Guantanamo Bay to hold undocumented immigrants, calling it a tough place to get out of.

And he later ordered the construction of a 30,000-bed detention camp at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, which is in Cuba.

So I want you to talk for a second about what this decision says about the severity of his immigration policies that Republicans are suborning, but also what does it mean in light of the prior uses of Guantanamo as a federal military facility to be used for this domestic purpose?

Chaos, confusion, and fear is the point with the Trump administration, right?

They want headlines about arrests in communities and moving 30,000 people to Guantanamo.

The question is, do they really have the legal authority for the first time ever to put people on Guantanamo who are actually already here in the United States?

And there are some important legal challenges that will be filed to push back against the use of that authority.

And I want to flag that up top.

Now, you are correct that what we're seeing is the Trump administration, in addition to its fearful rhetoric, try to get around the obstacles they face and the delays they face in their mass deportation agenda.

And traditionally, Guantanamo has been a place where the U.S.

government can do things in secret.

And there isn't accountability for violations of due process.

There isn't accountability for the conditions people are subjected to.

And that is is what Trump is aiming to do here.

But the reality is that non-citizens in the United States who would be possibly removed and detained in Guantanamo Bay still have a right under immigration law to access immigration court proceedings.

And if the Trump administration does not allow them to access those proceedings, there is legal pushback that will be filed in the federal courts because he is still subject to the authority of Congress as expressed in the Immigration and Nationality Act.

And what we're seeing, of course, across sectors is the Trump administration overstep its constitutional bounds, ignore direction from Congress.

And so with the use of Guantanamo, that legal pushback in addition to public outcry will be incredibly important here.

Well, that takes us nicely to the part of the show that is so important, which is what do we do about it?

You talked about the fact that we can engage in legal action.

You talked about the protests that happened earlier.

So I want to start with level setting.

What would a humane immigration policy look like?

One that helps people move out of the shadows and allows them to fully participate in American life, both financially and socially?

Yeah, this is the question.

And unfortunately, in a moment like this, when we're inundated with so many changes and so much chaos, it's easy to lose track of the path ahead.

And the path ahead has to include some plan for giving the 13 million people who are here, who've been here for decades, a pathway to legal status.

Now, the thing Americans have to understand is that ultimately we want a system that encourages people to comply with the law, right?

To follow the rules.

That's the mark of a successful system.

Right now,

Immigration enforcement agencies are being funded at unprecedented levels.

That has increased over time.

And yet there are more people in violation of immigration law.

That means our system is not working.

It's not helping people comply with the law.

It's not incentivizing them to do that.

What we can do is have a system where we say, look, if you're in violation of the law, there are certain consequences.

No, it should not be deportation as a one-size-fits-all consequence, right?

We should not be sending people to death and indefinitely detaining them when they're contributing in this way to our country.

But there can still be some kind of consequence like, oh, you know, you have been here in violation for this many years.

Here's a pathway to citizenship, but you will have a two-year path to get there.

And if along the way you violate other rules, it might take longer to get that.

right you can have a system of consequences that's more humane and more reasonable but that actually puts people on a pathway to getting out of the shadows and honoring what they've been contributing to our country.

And so a shorter way of saying this that we hope to hear more Democrats frankly talk about is a fair system is one that is both including legalization and that has enforcement.

And the two can go hand in hand and they absolutely should not include at large community raids or terms like mass deportation.

or use of the national military.

There's no reason to do that.

These are not folks who make our lives any less safe.

In fact, they create opportunities.

Immigrants create jobs for other people.

Look, we can have an orderly system that makes Americans feel safe, but that also gives a pathway to legalization for the many people who've lived here and who contribute richly to our country.

One thing I believe in one of the reasons I wanted to do Assembly Required is that we've got to build our way to what we want.

And so if we want that humane policy, we've got to navigate the horrific behavior that is overtaking us right now.

So what actions can we take as regular folks to support immigrants in our communities right now, particularly those who may be under threat?

Yeah, so the first really important line of defense here is making sure people on the ground understand their rights.

You know, people have to know you don't have to open a door if an ICE officer knocks on it.

The warrant they have is an administrative warrant, not a judicial warrant.

Those rights, that education is critical.

We saw that in Chicago, where we saw the Trump administration try to sweep up people in the community.

And because they knew their rights, it was harder for ICE to meet that goal.

So, you know, part of disseminating rights information is making sure it's accessible in all the, you know, languages that our communities speak, making sure that folks on the ground are equipped with that information, that our businesses are sharing that.

Let's stay with that line of defense.

What are the best resources for people to use if they want to take on that responsibility?

Give us a couple of websites or a couple of organizations they could turn to.

Yeah, so the Immigrant Legal Resource Center, ILRC, has a famous red card.

You can go to their website, click on a link, print out a card in at least 20 languages.

It's pocket size, wallet size.

You can keep a stack of that at the coffee shop you run, at the restaurant you run.

You can hand it out at your local church.

That reminds people in the language they speak what their rights are if ICE shows up.

There are also resources on ILRC's website on what to do if ICE shows up to a school and you're a principal or you're a teacher, right?

What to do if you run a congregation at a place of faith, at a place of worship, if suddenly there's ICE nearby.

And these are all things we've already seen in two weeks.

So I would encourage folks to check out that website for know your rights information that can be easily shared in a digestible way.

Awesome.

Well, Nana, thank you so much for being with us.

Is there any last word you want to give to our audience before we get out there and take action?

The last word I would say is just, you know, the only way to push back on the confusion and chaos of this moment is for each of us to speak up on any platform that we have.

This is a moment where elected officials are being told it's unhelpful to talk about immigration, it's politically toxic.

And we have to push back on that idea by supporting folks on the ground and speaking up as much as we can.

So thanks so much for having me.

I'm so grateful.

Thank you so much for spending this time and giving such great information on Assembly Required.

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We've just focused on how Trump's immigration policies are going to impact millions of people who already live in the U.S.

and those who are trying to enter through the southern border.

Now we're going to talk about the global forces that influence immigration and how that impacts the flow of refugee and asylum seekers to our shores.

Joining me today is Jeremy Knindike, the president of Refugees International.

Prior to his current role, Jeremy worked for USAID, the U.S.

Agency for International Development, during both the Biden and Obama administrations, addressing everything from COVID-19 to disaster assistance.

Jeremy, welcome to Assembly Required.

My pleasure.

It's a privilege.

Thank you.

So we are recording this on Monday, February 3rd.

And at this very moment, members of Congress have

basically demanded entry to the shuttered USAID headquarters.

This is on the heels of some fairly, I would say, illegal, if not illegal, actions taken by the Secretary of State Marco Rubio and by President Trump and his shadow puppet President Elon Musk.

Can you spend a little bit of time explaining to our listeners what USAID is and why they should be paying attention to what's unfolding right now?

So USAID is the main foreign assistance arm of the federal government.

So anything from disaster relief, which are some of the programs that I used to lead.

So when you would see teams of American rescue personnel in Haiti after the earthquake, after a tsunami somewhere or a hurricane somewhere, those were USAID personnel.

Those were our teams.

They would go deploy after a major crisis and save lives.

It's also things like global health.

So up until the past week or so, the U.S.

would support 20 million people around the world on HIV treatments to keep their HIV infections suppressed.

And we have saved 25 million lives that would have been lost to HIV over the last 20 years.

That sort of global health programming is really a core part of what we do through the U.S.

government at USAID.

Ebola response, outbreak response, and then also things like long-term economic development, human rights and democracy work, rebuilding countries after crisis.

So in a sort of normal situation, we would be focused very heavily on Syria right now and trying to build up towards some sort of a more stable government and future for the country of Syria.

So it really runs the gamut, but it's a really critical and important way that America shows a face of generosity and support and solidarity and partnership to the world.

And

those are not values that you hear Trump or Elon Musk talk about very much.

And so it's not surprising to me that they're targeting USAID right out of the gate.

And knowing you're not a lawyer, but as someone who once worked for USAID, can you talk a little bit about what is happening right now and why it is so disturbing that the Secretary of State has been declared the head of the USAID.

Yeah, and in this case, you don't really need to be a lawyer to know this is illegal.

There's a great resource I would point people to.

A woman in Tess Bridgman, who I worked with in the Obama administration, she was a White House national security lawyer, has written a great piece on just security about the legalities of this.

But the bottom line is Congress enshrined USAID in law.

So it was originally established by John F.

Kennedy in 1961 through an executive order.

But later on, Congress did legislate it.

So it cannot be undone by an executive order, contrary to what Elon Musk and a lot of his minions and my Twitter mentions keep asserting.

Okay.

So we're going to do one more set of definitions and level setting before we jump into the heart of the conversation.

But I appreciate you doing this because I think it's so critical for those who are hearing the news and hearing the noise to understand just how dangerous what is unfolding is.

And so the other piece that I would love for you to describe are a couple of key terms that we're going to use.

Can you describe the difference between an asylum seeker and a refugee?

And just talk a little bit about the work that you do in this context.

So a refugee is someone who has fled across an international border because they are being persecuted or are unsafe in their home country.

And so that is, that comes out of the experience of the post-World War II era, where after World War II, there was enormous displacement in Europe.

And of course, there had been horrifying stories like

the St.

Louis, a boat of Jewish refugees from Europe who were refused entry into the United States and ultimately returned to Europe to, you know, many of whom were then harmed and killed.

You know, that there was a very strong feeling after World War II that we needed.

protection, we needed global systems to protect people like that.

So it comes out of that experience of displacement and war and persecution and really extermination during World War II.

So coming out of that in 1951, the world put together the Refugee Convention.

And the basic idea of the Refugee Convention, which the U.S.

was one of the lead signatories on, was that people should have access to protection when they are,

you know, when they are at grave harm in their home country, and that other countries should have a system to take them in and protect them.

And that is what we now call, in most countries, asylum.

So a refugee is someone who has fled across a border and been granted some form of asylum in another country.

An asylum seeker is someone who is trying to make it to a place where they can be safe, but has not yet been determined to have a valid case.

So when someone tries to come into the United States, if it is a, say, a Venezuelan who is fleeing state collapse and often targeted violence in their home country, making their way through very dangerous and unsafe conditions through Central America, comes to the U.S.

border, in theory, should be able to just present themselves at one of our border crossings and say, I have a fear of persecution.

I would like to seek asylum in the United States.

The reality is a lot messier and more complicated than that.

That's the theory of how it should work.

It's not often how it does work, and we can get into some of why.

Think of an asylum seeker almost as a refugee in waiting, someone who is asserting they deserve that status, but the state that would let them in has not yet granted it.

Well, okay, last one.

There has been a lot of conversation about TPS and the decision by Donald Trump to revoke it necessarily from Venezuelans, Nicaraguans, Haitians.

Can you talk a little bit about TPS and sort of the universe of those who are currently in the news?

So TPS is a really critical tool to protect people who are in this country and who cannot safely return to their home country.

And so it is often used if a country has fallen into civil war, if it has fallen into widespread state collapse or civil disorder.

And so places like Venezuela, places like Sudan, where there is an ongoing major civil war and famine, will often be designated for temporary protected status by the U.S.

President because it's a recognition that whether or not a Sudanese person or a Venezuelan person is in this country lawfully, they cannot be safely returned to the country they come from.

Haiti is another, of course, case of that right now.

There's widespread state collapse and violence in Haiti.

So this often becomes a way for people who are, you know, they maybe did not come here as refugees, but functionally are not too different from refugees in the sense that they cannot safely go home.

According to CBS, the Trump administration's freeze on the refugee resettlement program has left 22,000 people stranded.

At the top of the program, we talked about the fact that many of these folks have been through security checks and health checks and criminal background checks.

They have done everything they've been asked to do and now they are stopped.

Is this an accurate assessment of the state of play and where are these people coming from and what happens to them now?

So the Refugee Resettlement Program is a long-standing and traditionally very bipartisan program to bring people who are refugees in a third country to safety and to rebuild a new life in the United States.

And so, you know, this could be people, right?

Right now, many of those people in that program are Afghans.

So there are a lot of Afghans who are who have fled after the fall of Kabul, who are currently sheltering in Pakistan, but cannot safely stay there because as long as they are in Pakistan,

sometimes they are targeted for persecution.

They face a risk of being forced to go back

to potential harm or death in Afghanistan.

Pakistan has expelled a lot of Afghans.

And so the U.S.

government has this program for people who are in that kind of situation, who have fled their first country, their home country, but can't stay viably in their, you know, in the country where they currently are.

So it gives them a critical way to seek durable safety.

Many Afghans right now are stranded, people who had registered with the U.S.

government, been vetted by the U.S.

government, and now are stuck in unsafe and very precarious situations.

Many of these are

family members of people who have already come to the United States.

So many of the Afghans who fled after the fall of Kabul came here individually, still had family members left behind who were not able to get out at that time.

Those people are now stranded.

I heard another story of a South Sudanese family who could not safely return to South Sudan, who had been vetted, reviewed, approved for resettlement.

Most of the family flew in the first part of January, but they had one daughter,

a young adult daughter, who had a paperwork problem and had to stay back while that got fixed.

January 20 comes and goes.

The Trump administration stops all additional resettlement, and now that young woman is alone, stranded in a refugee camp without any family around to protect her.

Her family are here absolutely heartsick, unsure if she is safe, unsure if they will ever be able to reunite with her.

You know, these are the kind of human impacts that this refugee ban is having.

So much of the Trump administration's rhetoric, and by extension, the Republican Party's rhetoric about immigration paints everyone who comes here as criminals.

And in regards to helping refugees and others from around the world, they frame it not as prioritizing safety and security for all, but as us deprioritizing the needs of Americans.

Can you talk a bit about this rhetoric and what is harmful about it, but also what we should hear when we hear this?

Yeah, it is,

needless to say, it is deeply xenophobic.

It's also important to call out, out, it is just factually wrong.

It is disinformation.

There was a really seminal study done of the economic effects of resettling refugees to the United States.

This was chartered during the first Trump administration.

Stephen Miller wanted to have evidence that it was an economic harm to the United States to resettle refugees here.

And instead, what they found was it was a substantial economic benefit.

There has been a lot of research finding that resettling refugees to this country pays more money into the treasury over the first decade of their presence here than it costs to resettle them.

So it's actually a net economic benefit to the U.S.

taxpayer to welcome refugees in this country.

President Biden's parole program, which was kind of another tool that the president can use for bringing in people, they don't have to be refugees to be eligible, but generally it is targeted towards people from unsafe countries.

The parole program has brought in Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans.

Ukrainians were brought into the United States this way after the war began there, and Afghans were brought in this way.

They are filling critical jobs all over the country right now.

It's no secret to any of your listeners, we have huge labor gaps in the United States right now.

This is a way to help fill them and get a double benefit because it helps to revitalize U.S.

communities, it helps to fill

vacant jobs that Americans are not filling, and it provides protection and support to people who badly need it.

So it's an absolute win across the board.

But often those people are

a different color from what this administration prefers, frankly.

So I heard you say two things.

One, that Stephen Miller proved that refugees and asylum seekers are a net benefit to the U.S.

Accidentally.

Okay.

However it happens.

Exactly.

But the second, and I think this is worth digging into, there's a narrative that abounds that

we shouldn't be responsible, that as the richest country in the world, it's not our responsibility to take care of anyone else.

But I would argue, and I think your life's work shows, that we can take care of both our own needs and contribute to helping others.

So, what's your elevator pitch?

When someone is getting into this argument, when someone is trying to convince a friend, a neighbor, a co-worker who thinks that we shouldn't be dealing with this, that it's not our problem to be concerned with what happens elsewhere.

What do you think we should say?

Well, I'd say a few things.

First, it is the story of America.

My ancestors, if you go back a few generations, were poor people from the Netherlands who came here to build a better life for themselves.

And I like to think I'm contributing to the country in a positive way.

And it's a net good that I'm, you know, that they did that.

Every major wave of migration to the United States in history has faced exactly that same sort of attitude.

We are full.

We can't possibly take any more.

They're ruining our country.

All of this.

If you go back and look at the rhetoric around Irish and Italian immigrants from the first part of the 20th century, it is very similar to what we see today.

It is, as we know now, a huge economic and a huge cultural and social benefit to our country to be a welcoming country.

And most Americans agree with that.

Yes, there is a very vocal minority who are, of course, very opposed to that.

But we have done polling.

Other organizations like us have done polling looking at voter attitudes on welcoming people who are fleeing harm.

And even in September of last year, at the peak of the election season, at the peak of the anti-immigrant rhetoric, when hundreds of millions of dollars of anti-immigration advertising was on the airwaves, a solid majority, more than 60% of Americans believe we should continue to resettle refugees here, a solid majority of Independents, a solid majority of Democrats, and even a plurality of Republicans.

What we also find is that when people personally know a refugee, when they identify with that story and they can see that in their lives, that support shoots way up.

So among people who know a refugee, that support goes up across the board, including with Republicans, by 20 points.

And what that tells me is people identify with that.

That really is a core American value.

And part of the reason why you see so much gaslighting and disinformation and hundreds of millions of dollars of negative political advertising around immigration is to counteract that very basic fact that America at its core remains a welcoming country.

Last week, the Trump administration kept repeating, for example, that we spent $50 million on condoms for Gaza.

And you, I want to congratulate you.

You not only effectively pushed back against it and called it disinformation, you managed to, I think, be part of the course that shouted down the crazy.

But can you clarify that bit of disinformation and any other major misconceptions that are being promoted?

Yeah, and I think this is a really instructive case because one of the things that you've heard a lot, you've seen a lot in Elon's Twitter feed, and you're hearing now repeated by the president is, well, this is all waste, fraud, and corruption.

And when they are pressed to give an example of that,

they talk about the condoms.

None of it is real.

So what I, you know, when I first saw this, and I've worked on reproductive health programs and I've worked in disaster response and, you know, something about that figure just struck me as wrong.

So I reached out to a few friends who work on reproductive health procurement.

The U.S.

government buys a lot of condoms for its reproductive health programs.

It sends none of them to Gaza for the record, but it does buy a lot of them for elsewhere.

And so I just asked, how much, you know, how much do those things cost when we buy them in bulk?

And the answer was, well, between four and five cents a piece.

So $50 million at that level would be more than a billion condoms.

There is no world in which, I mean, it's just, when you put it that way, there is no world in which anyone would think to send a billion condoms to the 2 million people in Gaza.

It also, of course, you know, never mind the fact that the Israeli government controls anything that goes in and out of Gaza and would never let those truckloads.

So it's an absurdity, but it's an absurdity, I think, that's very instructive because they are not bothering to talk about plausible things.

They are not bothering to find real stories.

They are making stuff up.

They are spouting untruths and then using that as their pretext to gut a federal agency that they do not like.

Jeremy, you have been incredibly helpful.

And so I'm going to close with this.

One thing that we do on the show is not just give people people information so they can understand where we are, but give them tools for making an impact on an individual and local level.

But with a subject like this, some of us can feel not only overwhelmed, but powerless.

What would you say to them?

Are there ways for...

average folks to get involved to help refugee families who are already here, assist those who are coming to the U.S., or just something that you think needs to be done in this moment to protect and preserve our national belief in doing for others.

Absolutely.

And I would talk about a national level and I would talk about a very local level.

To start with the high level, the national level,

everyone who cares about these issues should be reaching out to their members of Congress, particularly if they are in a red district or a red state and saying, save USAID.

We care.

about doing good in the world.

We think the richest country on earth

should do good in the world no matter what the richest man in the world thinks about that.

So Republicans in particular need to be hearing that, but all members of Congress need to know that their constituents care about this.

And if they do, it will materially help to protect USAID against some of these attacks.

Similarly, while you're talking to them, talk about the importance of continuing to welcome refugees and protect people in this country.

The refugee resettlement program also needs saving.

It is also being targeted by a ban right now.

At a local level, you know, one of the interesting things about refugee policy in the United States is that a lot of the things that make life

better for refugees and newcomers in the United States are actually state and local policies.

So access to education, access to labor.

So talk to your mayor, engage in your local government, engage in your state government.

We have a program called the Refugee Advocacy Lab that works in a number of states, and that's the website, refugeeadvocacylab.org.

Works in a number of states that to advance those kinds of welcoming policies at the state and city level.

And then I'd go one more level down.

In your own community, find ways to gather with other allies of refugees and displaced people.

It's really important we build community right now.

I talk to a lot of people who feel very isolated, who don't know and

aren't connecting with other people who share their values.

You know, organize a book group, organize a movie group.

There's a great book by Jonathan Blitzer called Everyone Who Has Gone is Here, Looking at the Global Displacement Crisis.

That's a great place to start.

And also reach out to mutual aid societies that are supporting migrants in your community because there's a lot to do there and they always need extra sets of hands.

Jeremy, thank you so much for your time, for your efforts, for your energy, and for being with us here on Assembly Required.

It's my pleasure.

Thanks so much, Stacey.

Thank you.

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So, I know we've covered a lot of ground in today's episode.

And even though things may seem dire, We are here together because we know we can build the world we deserve.

And that means that we are going to take take on tough issues like immigration.

Immigrants have, since the very beginning, helped shape who we are as a nation.

Therefore, supporting our friends, our loved ones, and our communities that are most impacted by Republican attempts to rewrite that important history will be essential.

So here's your toolkit for this week.

Number one, be curious.

To understand more about undocumented immigration, asylum seekers, and refugees, go to the organizations that focus on each of these for more information.

That includes Refugees International and the American Immigration Council with gratitude again to our guest.

Number two, we're going to solve problems.

I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again.

Call and write your members of Congress.

In fact, we just had a member of Congress tell us, call and write your members of Congress.

Let them know that these issues matter to you and that you want them to fight on your behalf, on their constituents' behalf, and you want them to oppose harmful legislation and attempts by Donald Trump to evade responsibility.

The congressional switchboard number is 202-224-3121.

So just give them a call.

When they answer, give them your state and your zip code and ask to be transferred to your representative.

Then call back for your two senators.

And remember, your party doesn't matter and it doesn't matter which party they're in.

They are U.S.

representatives and U.S.

senators.

So if you live in their district or their state, you have the right to speak up and the right to expect a response.

But I need you to also share your concerns on social media, in your local papers, especially in rural areas or on minority media, and with your friends and family.

As Senator Booker told us, communications do matter.

Number three, do good.

If you want to help refugees resettle in the U.S., find an organization in your home state that does that work.

Remember, these are families that have left everything behind.

You can help with donations or volunteering your time, whatever you have the capacity to do.

And as we were encouraged, for those who are facing deportation and detention, we can also hand out information so migrants know their rights.

Please visit the Immigrant Legal Resource Center at illrc.org for for resources and other ways to get involved.

Okay, this week we're also going to do something a little different to answer our listener questions.

We are delighted to get so many voicemails and emails and comments and it's not possible to respond to them all and get to the next episode.

So I want you to know that we do see them and we pay attention.

Therefore, I would like to welcome our producer, Alona Minkowski, to tell us a bit about what's been on your minds.

Thanks, Dacey.

Well, we get a lot of listener voicemails.

We get a lot of listener emails.

And as you mentioned, we're so grateful for all of them.

I have to say that even though it's been a bit of a dark start to the year and it feels like very stressful times,

you know, our listeners have really been enjoying the guests that we've had on.

And I think that that feedback has been overwhelming, whether it was Kenji Yoshino or Melissa Murray or Senator Corey Booker.

They are making themselves heard loud and clear that they really, really love the guests that we've had on recently.

And, you know, one thing that I notice every week when I'm reading through all these questions that people send in is everyone wants you to give them the answer on how it is that they can do something, how it is that they can get involved and help.

And I think that's very relatable, right?

It's very easy to feel overwhelmed when everything feels like it's going in the wrong direction.

And And so I thought maybe you could offer us a little bit of insight into your own history and past.

What was the first, you know, good thing that you did that helped you kind of streamline, pick your lane and feel like you were making a difference.

So I can't remember the very first thing I did because I grew up with parents who had us doing lots of things.

But I will tell you, I recently wrote a children's book called Stacey Speaks Up.

And for me, it's the distillation of what I remember, which was I saw a problem.

I tried to find somebody else to fix it.

So I went to an adult and the adult told me that I needed to use my voice.

In real life, what I did was find some friends to try to help.

But in the book, Stacy, little Stacey, finds some friends and they do a petition.

And then they actually talk to the people in power, in this case, the school board.

But I think it's important to remember that our job.

is to marry empathy with advocacy.

We first have to know why we care.

And then our next step is to just find one small way to help.

And so for me, that meant finding someone, finding the adult in charge, and telling them about a problem that maybe they didn't see because they were too far removed.

And often that's really the issue.

It's not that the problem is too big to solve, it's that sometimes people just don't see it because they get so used to it being wrong that they forget that we can make it right.

Okay, that's very, very helpful.

And now I do want to read you one question from a listener this week.

This one comes from Sue, and she is from upstate New York, says she loves the show.

And she says, while I may not be able to solve complex issues like TikTok,

I believe that citizen action groups can play a huge role in pushing back on important issues like women's reproductive freedom.

Perhaps you could take some time to explain how people can form citizen action groups in their local areas.

Can you answer that one for us?

I have no idea.

I'm so excited to talk about this.

There is a fantastic organization, Indivisible, that was created in the wake of the 2016 elections.

They have grown across the country, and this is what they do.

You can visit them at indivisible.org, where they have toolkits, guides.

They can tell you about local groups that already exist in your community.

And if there aren't those groups, they can tell you how to form them.

One of the most important things is not to reinvent the wheel.

We might build a new car, we might take a new direction, but we don't have to reinvent what's already been done.

And indivisible.org does an amazing job of helping citizen action groups come together, find resources, and get good done.

Amazing.

All right, Stacey.

Well, that was a great answer.

I will be back again on another episode to fill you in on how our listeners are thinking and feeling.

Thanks so much, Alona.

Appreciate you coming by.

So to wrap up, I did want to tell you all that not only do I hear what you ask, I want to share what you do.

And this is from another listener who said, I loved your episode with Corey Booker and his idea of radical empathy.

You asked for comments on what we are doing to be light to combat the darkness the election of Donald Trump has brought to our country.

Well, this listener said, I decided to volunteer for a local nonprofit called Matthew House that helps refugees and immigrants.

I'm learning how to teach English as a second language, ESL, to refugees and immigrants.

My first night volunteering was this past Thursday, and I am volunteering twice a month after work.

In addition, I am making financial donations to this nonprofit.

I want to say thank you to that listener for taking the time to share what you're doing.

And I want all the rest of you to tell us what you've learned, what you've solved.

Send us an email at assemblyrequired at crooked.com or leave us a voicemail.

And you and your questions and comments not only might be featured on the pod, but you might have the wonderful Alona reading it out loud.

Our number is 213-293-9509.

That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams.

I am delighted to be here with you, and I look forward to meeting you here again next week.

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a crooked media production.

Our lead show producer is Alona Minkowski.

and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco.

Kirill Polaviev is our video producer.

This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis.

Our theme song is by Vasilius Votopoulos.

Thank you to Matt DeGroat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, and Samantha Slossberg for production support.

Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Haringer, and me, Stacey Abrams.

Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

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