How to Stand Up to Project 2025 and Save Public Education

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Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media.

I'm your host, Stacey Abrams.

On this show, we try to take complicated issues and untangle them for our audience.

We want to make sure that listeners can take action on the things they care about.

and that they understand those things.

We are trying our best to break through the analysis paralysis that is taking hold of so many of us, but we also want to dispel the desperation that keeps us inactive.

So often the issues seem so big and so complicated, doing nothing seems like the smartest thing to do.

Or we think it's too big for us to solve alone and we wait for someone to call us in.

Well, consider this your call.

Because since November, we have had a lot of conversation about what is going to happen next.

What can we expect in a second Donald Trump administration with a Republican-controlled Congress and a rubber-stamping Supreme Court?

Listeners have written in to ask us about everything from how to protect same-sex marriage rights to what will happen to their health care and on a more basic level, how to move forward in what can feel like a shocking and terrifying time for so many.

And among the responses we've been getting, there's one topic that has come up the most, and that's education.

In fact, here's one of the calls we've gotten from our listeners.

This is from Kieran from right here in Georgia.

My name is Kieran Krishnamurti.

I live in Savannah, Georgia.

I don't have a lot of money, but I try to support your organization as much as I can.

Right now, I'm trying to do local things.

And I wondered if you knew of anything I could do with the Department of Education since the Trump administration is talking about shutting it down.

But if there's anything I can do, I would really love to be able to.

Bye-bye.

So what Kieran is referring to, and thank you, Kieran, for calling in, she's referring to a pledge from the president-elect who has promised to shut down the Department of Education.

This is the department which oversees everything from special education to funding learning for the poorest kids in our country.

He's also said he wants to cut federal funding for schools, especially those that teach critical race theory, basically the study of how racism has and does exist in social systems and laws.

And he wants to roll back Title IX protections, which are the laws that prohibit discrimination based on gender.

And then there's Project 2025, the 900-page conservative policy blueprint that was put forth by the Heritage Foundation, was written by many Trump advisors, and by people he has already selected to join his administration, which he told us he didn't believe in or know about.

And it turns out maybe he was lying.

Project 2025 provides even more detail about potential changes that Trump will try to make to education.

Here's how MSNBC's Ali Belshi describes it.

Beyond privatizing schools and eliminating most of the protections for disadvantaged students, Project 2025 also seeks to

take on the so-called woke agenda in education.

Woke is all through this document, by the way, even though regular people don't use that expression.

As Heritage Foundation president President Kevin Roberts puts so clearly in his forward, quote, the noxious tenets of critical race theory and gender ideology should be excised from curricula in every public school in the country, end quote.

So among the advocates for dismantling public education as we know it is U.S.

Senator Mike Rounds.

He has already introduced legislation to start dismantling the Department of Education and redistribute key programs and funding to other federal agencies.

In fact, these would be the agencies that do not have a singular focus or expertise on preserving public education, because that's kind of the point.

The attack on public education is not a drill.

It is a mission statement.

And I take them very seriously and I take it very personally.

You see, public education saved my family's life.

My parents grew up in Jim Crow, Mississippi, denied access to the fullest measure of public education, and yet, what they were able to claw out and carve out changed our futures.

I grew up in the first generation that took college for granted.

But too often, a family's income or zip code determines if their child has a strong beginning or receives an education that can power a lifetime of opportunity.

My parents were the first in their families to go to college, and that changed how we see ourselves and how we've been able to engage.

College isn't for everyone, but education belongs to all of us.

I'm in the first generation to not attend segregated schools, but I'm also in the first generation to believe that we could lose access to public education if we aren't vigilant.

My dad used to say, they can take your job, they can take your house, but no one can take what's in your mind.

And that is the promise we make to children in America through public education.

The Department of Education matters.

And that's why we're going to break down how and why we can defend it and what a president can feasibly do to it or not.

Because here at Assembly Required, we do not panic.

We look carefully at an issue, we dissect the most important things about it, and we figure out entry points for action.

And to do that, we call on experts.

Today, I'm joined by two people who are here to teach us what we need to know.

John Vallant is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and director director of the Brown Center of Education Policy.

He specializes in K-12 education policy.

And Kate Nazimi, who is the co-founder of a local organization in Central Bucks, Pennsylvania.

It's called Advocates for Inclusive Education.

She has two kids in the local public school system and organizes allies to support public education along with other parents, teachers, and activists in her community.

That conversation after the break.

John Vellant, Kate Nazimi, welcome welcome to Assembly Required.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you.

It's an honor.

Well, thank you so much for being here.

I'm going to start with you, Kate.

Conservative activists have been swept into power.

They are threatening to ban and rewrite the narratives.

I don't know if this sounds familiar to you, but

We are in the moment where people are watching change happen.

And you watched conservative activists take over your school district, ban books, rewrite curricula.

How did you fight back?

And more importantly, did it work?

Sure, thanks.

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about what it might look like here with a return to some of that really divisive rhetoric and

action.

And so, sure, I mean,

we

were coming off the heels of the pandemic, and we had a board that

had great contempt for a lot of the guidance around masking.

And so, our community was really divided.

And I just share that to kind of give you a sense of what it was like before a new board was seated.

And

we started to see these restrictions being rolled out against teachers and what books kids could read

and

what they were being taught.

And so, really, the first thing I did was quite simply attend a school board meeting and listen really carefully to what was being shared.

And

there was our library coordinator who was sharing a policy for library collections.

And it was met with, again, contempt.

And I knew right then that there was going to be an issue with censorship here in the district.

And so it was really a matter of just

talking to folks in the community, asking them who they knew at the like a national sort of level in terms of like attorneys and support.

So I sent the policies off to various organizations, various legal organizations, which anybody could do in any community.

And I just asked them simply to read it and to tell us what they see as potentially being problematic for students in the district.

And so we just started that way by gathering support from educators and professionals and then we'd share that information out to the community during public comment.

Well first I thought that simply just having mention of violating First Amendment rights of students would be like enough for the policies to to to put an end to the policies.

And I see you're smiling but like I totally was naive.

I thought, oh, for sure.

Like, I remember getting so excited for getting the letters and running into the school board room, getting enough time to like read these out.

And they had already received them.

And I thought, this is it.

It's going to do it.

Like, they're going to drop this policy.

They're going to follow the librarians.

But no, they just like bulldozed ahead.

So then we knew it was more or less just sort of, how can we educate the public about what's happening here in the district and throw sand in the gears, like slow this down so that the books remain on the shelves, the teachers are able to teach.

And the way we did that was we sort of formed this organization.

It's really just two people, myself and a retired English teacher, Catherine Semish.

And we start, we just kind of threw everything we had, every skill we had.

like out there.

So we developed a blog and a newsletter and we just advertised that through word of mouth.

We asked people to sign up.

So we kept people informed like through writing and through our blog.

We organized people in like playgrounds, community groups to come and attend the meetings to really see, it was really important for people to see kind of like what was happening.

This was an important opening because what I wanted people to understand and I thought it was so important for you to go first.

We are in this moment where we can feel overwhelmed by the sheer scope of what is to come.

And what you accomplished in central Pennsylvania in a moment that came after a crisis, when that crisis was leveraged to push a conservative orthodoxy and to fundamentally change

the norms, you understood that that was a moment to respond.

And John, I'm going to come to you because I think it's important for us to understand how that applies specifically to education, education, that the underpinnings of society, the underpinnings of our democracy, the underpinnings of our functionality is based on what we know.

And we have a whole federal department whose sole job it is is to be the department of education.

So I would love to have you talk a bit about what the Department of Education does, which is so much more complicated than most folks realize.

And so

can you talk a little bit about

how you think about the Department of Education and your work?

For sure.

The context that you're placing that in, I think, is that we've had this kind of strange conversation going on now about whether to dismantle the U.S.

Department of Education.

And it really feels very out of place to a lot of us, partly because

this is a genuinely tough time for U.S.

schools.

And so it just seems strange that we would be going after this federal department that kind of oversees our education system.

And then also because a lot of people just don't know what the U.S.

Department of Education does.

And so it's this, it's a sort of odd conversation where to me, really what's been going on is that the department has become a symbol of public schools.

And so it's become sort of what people attack when they're trying to attack US public schools.

So now what the department actually does.

So the federal government, when it comes to K-12 education, it provides about 10% of funding for schools, and its role is limited, but it's important.

So the kind of core parts of the federal federal rule in education are one, protection of students' civil rights.

So it enforces civil rights law that cuts across a lot of different types of law.

Two, it provides compensatory funding for groups of students who we might worry would otherwise be underfunded.

So if we had an education system that relied entirely on state and local funding, and like if we relied on property taxes, we would have a vastly unequal set of resources that were available to students.

It would be students who live in places that have the highest property value would have far and away the most resources to pay for schools.

So, part of what the federal government's role is, is that it tries to offset that a little bit.

So, it puts a little bit of funding in, generally

in support of students who are lower income, and then also other groups that would otherwise be underfunded.

So, in particular, students with disabilities receive some important funding from the federal government.

And then it plays some important roles in research and development.

It oversees our loan portfolio portfolio in higher education.

But what I think is really important to understand about the US Department of Education is the department is what administers a lot of these programs that were actually established in laws that often predate the department.

So even if somehow we were to get rid of the US Department of Education, which I think is very unlikely for a lot of reasons, those laws still exist.

So getting rid of the Department of Education doesn't mean that we get rid of Title I funding or that we get rid of protections and resources for students with disabilities.

The Department of Education is just the agency that exists to administer those programs and kind of make sure that everything is moving as it should.

Thank you for explaining that.

We have

an elementary school librarian in Missouri who wrote to us that she was extremely worried about the potential elimination of the Department of Education.

If this happens, she asked, you know, what would it mean for states like hers?

where federal funding is a lifeline for so many school districts.

And Kate, that brings me back to you because part of the challenge in Pennsylvania and elsewhere is how education is actually delivered in the United States.

John just explained that federal funding is matched with state and local funding,

but most of the laws are implemented at the state and local level.

And so, you know, 40% of funding for special education comes from the federal government.

But also, civil rights laws to protect students against discrimination based on race, gender, or sexual orientation, or identity are federal laws, not state laws.

As a local activist,

when you think about the money comes from here, the laws come from here, and there's this swirl that becomes the school district.

Can you describe what your experience would have been like if you were trying to hold local leaders accountable without these federal laws as backup?

It would have made the work look a lot different, you know,

and it would have been a much larger challenge because what the laws do for us as just community organizers is it gave us so much

credibility to our argument when we could point to

places where the policy could potentially break the law.

And not only did that work with

how our school board maybe interpreted

what we were advocating for, but it brought the larger community in and it also brought more recognition for the work itself.

So

having legal protections is,

you know, it was critical

to supporting the kids, like having that ability.

And the concern I have about just the Department of Education

moving

those protections or loosening those protections for students.

And even with Title I funding, is, and John, I don't know, your thoughts on this or Stacey, but when that, if that would be moved to the states, my assumption would be that not all states would be

equal in the treatment of students.

And so, you know, these are human rights that we're talking about,

like Head Start, you know, and other programs, universal funding

for like school lunches and stuff.

And I just don't understand how we could support something that wouldn't give that to every American, you know, child.

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We know that Senator Mike Brown's bill

I talked about at the top of the program.

What concerns me is exactly what Kate's raising, which is that the title of his bill is Returning Education to Our States Act.

But as you pointed out, a number of the laws that we rely on are federal laws that predated the Department of Education.

But the intention seems to be to fracture how effectively effectively the federal government can actually administer and implement and maintain protections for students across the country, irrespective of where they live.

So can you talk a little bit about

what they're up to and what the implications are?

Sure.

So when I'm thinking about what we might expect from the Trump administration, I think we should draw a line between what actions would require Congress's cooperation and what actions would not.

So if they want to shut down the U.S.

Department of Education, as long as the Senate filibuster remains in place, they would need 60 Senate votes and there's no way that's going to happen.

I think even beyond that, they would have trouble rallying all Republicans to shut down the Department of Education because it just required a lot of political capital.

And really, even if you read Project 2025, what they're talking about isn't even much of a shrinking of government.

It really is just this reshuffling to move programs into other agencies.

And I think people would see through it.

It's really expensive and messy.

They would need Congress to do that.

I think that's unlikely.

If it were something like eliminating Title I, which again is this funding that goes to students living in poverty, that too would require congressional action.

That would get no support from Democrats and would actually be very unpopular among many congressional Republicans, which is an important part of the story politically, which is, and it's, we've seen it in school choice issues, we've seen it with Title I.

A lot of what the department does and a lot of the resources that the department distributes actually go disproportionately to conservative areas.

They go in particular to rural Republican areas that would get hit the hardest if we were to take away some of those sources of funding.

So

everything that is on the side that would require congressional cooperation, I think we should look at a little bit skeptically about whether they really are going to push hard on that.

Now, there are some other things they can do that don't require congressional cooperation, and that's where I am expecting them to move fairly quickly.

And a lot of that is about civil rights protections.

And so this is kind of what I'm most concerned about most immediately.

I think they will do a lot very quickly on Title IX.

And so Title IX gets kind of redefined.

It's defined in law, but there's room for the department to interpret it.

And we see, as we move from Democratic presidents to Republican presidents and back and forth, we see some reinterpretation.

I think we might see.

a sort of supercharged reinterpretation in this administration.

So what I'm certainly expecting is they will do away with some Biden administration guidance that extended protections based on sex for sex-based discrimination to also apply based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

I think that very quickly will go away.

I could see them getting a bit more aggressive, particularly when it comes to transgender student rights, and trying to make claims, for example, that if a school district allows transgender students to participate in girls' sports, they're violating those sex-based discrimination practices.

And then they could start to threaten districts' funding and do and sort of play some games around there.

I think we will see them change the definitions of sexual harassment and assault, which will apply to college campuses and potentially to K-12 systems too.

So there is a lot of kind of messing around and redefining those laws in ways or reinterpreting those laws in ways that they want to reinterpret them that they can do even without congressional cooperation.

And I think that is a much more likely starting point than a sort of true dismantling of the department.

John, I want to make certain our listeners understand exactly what you've just described because what you've articulated is what worries me the most, but I want to give some definition.

So Title I is the federal funding program that was designed to provide additional resources for poor, for low-income students.

So when you hear Title I, that's about how we spend money on the most disadvantaged children in our schools.

Then you've got Title IX, which prohibits gender discrimination in our schools.

Most of the time when we talk about Title IX in the school system, it's around sports.

And that's where most people experience it the first time.

But what you were laying out, and Kate, I'm going to bring this back to you as well, is that there is the absolute authority within the administration without congressional action to reinterpret how they administer and how they define discrimination for the purposes of

the federal government and education.

And so the attacks on transgender children, the pitting of communities against one another with regards to

youth sports, that's part of how they can weaponize Title IX.

And Kate, I know you saw a great deal of this beginning with the conversation about book bans.

Can you talk a little bit about what that looked like when you started to see this Title IX war being waged in your community?

Sure.

So that's exactly right.

Much of the

target with the book ban, well, with the

restrictions on books, we did ban two books.

We had 60 books that were challenged to were banned.

You know, it was the same that you saw across the country.

There was

just an intense focus on queer and trans characters and stories.

And then that moved into

another policy that was limiting our teachers' ability to support and advocate for all students.

They weren't allowed to hang like a pride flag or a symbol of inclusion in their classroom.

And the children's identities were sort of conflated as being considered political.

So we were banning sort of social political activity in classrooms.

There was no real outright obvious discrimination.

That's why unpacking the policies and the motivations behind them was really important.

So, something we learned early on,

I was researching a case in 2021 in Ohio, and

they were arguing for the removal of books that were sexually explicit.

And the

rationale behind that argument was to sort of skirt legal scrutiny over sexual orientation and gender identity.

So I don't know if I'm answering your question, but

the way that it worked here, and I suspect it will work going forward, is it will be

like disguised or dressed up as being

something that it is not, to kind of

minimize the

the backlash against the outright discrimination.

So you'll see here, like with trans kids in sports, our community has been at odds about this for a very long time.

And the argument is

protection of girls.

You know, we have to watch out, look out for our girls.

So, if that were the case, then you'd think our community would be concerned about a girl playing on a boys' football team or co-ed sports, but they're not.

So,

I suppose that

the really like the important work is to

understand what the motivation is behind it, which is typically exclusion from something based on immutable characteristics, whatever they are, and to call it out for exactly what it is, and then to call in the greater

calling of what a public school is all about, which is to welcome all kids and include all kids from all backgrounds at all times.

I mean, it's a really

beautiful American

objective and goal and something we are constantly striving toward.

And there's always backlash.

So.

John, and just picking up on Kate's point about protecting children, we know that one of the long-held conservative concerns is the obligation of our public schools to educate all children, irrespective of their documentation status.

Can you talk a little bit about what could be done by a Trump administration with regards to children who speak English as a second language or children who are not documented, and

what worries you about what could happen next?

So by law, even undocumented children have a right to access our public schools.

And really, that should be a point of pride for all of us as a country.

I mean, if you go back in history, when it comes to our schools, they have not been perfect forever.

But we were early adopters of a universal public education system.

And we should feel good about that.

And it has always been a place where all kids, regardless of background, regardless of disability status, regardless of what language they speak, they can go and they can know that they're going to get a certain level of education.

That is protected by law.

Now,

so I would put immigration in the mix of issues where I don't know what's going to happen because I think it's going to be top of mind for this administration.

I think transgender students and transgender issues are another one.

So they may push in, they may push on some of those laws.

They may try to change something and change access, but it is protected by that access to schools is protected by law regardless of what language you speak, regardless of

your immigration set, your citizenship status.

You have a right to enter.

a public school in the United States.

And that is the law of the land right now.

So I don't know in what direction they will push.

I would not be surprised if we start to see some action in that direction.

And the other place where I think this is really going to be relevant for schools is if we see a big push on immigration enforcement, and we start to see large numbers of deportations, well, there are a lot of schools that are going to be really affected by that.

And it could be that it's kids who are seeing parents deported.

It could be that it's schools that are losing a lot of students.

It could be teachers who are at risk.

And that's going to be incredibly disruptive for a lot of schools across the country and I hope that real thought is given to that about the impacts on the families that are at risk of deportation but also to these communities and to their schools and to what it'll mean to everyone who's a part of that school because that will be a type of disruption that I'm not sure we've really experienced here.

I just wanted to share that Our community, I just am so proud of our like Central Bucks community.

We have an immigrants' right

group who's already working before it's even happened to figure out ways we can help support and protect the immigrants here and the children.

So that is a real antidote to what's coming our way is to just kind of like identify the problems early and get to it.

As someone who has been doing this work intensely, has this been what you've always done or were you new to this work?

And can you talk a little bit about how you navigated

becoming an activist when that wasn't your original calling?

You know, I haven't always done this, but I grew up with an awesome mom and she really modeled how to advocate for people.

I had a sister who had significant education needs and mental health needs.

And so I got to sort of be an observer to her

incredible advocacy and strength and just perseverance.

And And that really impacted me.

And

anyway, I have a background in education and special education.

And I also have a background in design and communications.

I've worked in higher ed for a long time doing communication work.

But I've been home with my girls raising them.

And so,

no, I...

I am not, this was not something I

thought I would be organizing.

I just honestly,

believe in the freedom to read.

Books are just so powerful, important.

People need to see themselves in books and I feel so strongly about that.

And when I saw

folks trying to prevent that from happening, you know, I was like, no, that is like very, very wrong.

And I would do whatever it would take.

I just felt extremely motivated.

And that motivation led to all these other actions,

had all these meetings.

Like people want to help.

We are good humans, most of us, you know.

I just woke up every day and was like, I just want to do good and I have no interest in personal like power or I just, I, I, I really am more comfortable.

Like, for example, this podcast is very difficult for me to do.

I, I, I'm so grateful for the opportunity, but I'm, I'm quiet and I'm nervous, but I know that that this, I know your platform and maybe what I say will help another community do something, you know, to help, you know, change what's on the ground.

And

I'm amazed with how much power you can actually have, how much change you can make when you are not in power and you are just a common

person.

Well, Kate.

if this is you quiet and shy yeah i feel very sorry for your opponents

oh really No.

No, this is fantastic.

And John, I want to bring you back in because part of what we want to do with this podcast, part of what Kate describes so effectively is knowing what we're facing.

And you've spent your career really diving into understanding education, understanding education policy.

As a former lawmaker, I can tell you not everyone making the laws understands what they're doing to the degree that you do.

We are often governed by people who are learning as they go.

And that's not a bad thing.

This is not a knock on legislators.

You've got lots of different topics.

And so we try to learn as much as we can on as many topics as we can.

But the kind of expertise that you hold is so critical.

Can you talk a bit about how someone who hears Kate and says, I want to do this, how can you help them think about learning about policy and understanding what they should be asking for, what they should be looking for as they start their journey of engagement?

Sure.

And so Kate is doing incredible work in Central Bucks.

In Central Bucks, we've all been reading about the work that's been going on in Central Bucks, and it's really amazing stuff.

And it's not just Kate, though.

There are people across the country who are doing work in their local schools.

It really is amazing.

And it's coming at a time when we've had this kind of nationalization of ugly culture war politics in schools.

And it's really been important to have people engaging locally.

And maybe they don't have, you know, research backgrounds and haven't spent their careers studying policy and studying research, but they might have kids or they know some teachers or maybe they taught.

And that's really the kind of information and the kind of background that you need to engage.

And one of the things that I love about schools and about education systems in the U.S.

is they are probably our most accessible public institutions.

I mean, you can walk in to a school board meeting and you can be heard and you can communicate with your school board members.

You can talk to your school principal.

There's an on-the-ground grassroots side to education that is hard to find in a lot of other policy areas.

So, I mean, if you're upset about what you think the Trump administration might do on foreign policy, it can be hard, honestly, to change how foreign policy looks.

If you're upset about what's going on in your kids' schools, well, you can walk into a school board meeting, you can run for school board, you can do do some of the things that Kate's doing.

And that really does make a big difference because we have a really decentralized school system.

And the expertise that it takes to run that system,

it's not a bunch of sort of textbook expertise.

It's really the experiences of teachers and of parents and of others who know something about what they want for their kids.

And if you know how to navigate that system, and again, it really isn't very hard.

It just takes a little bit of initiative to get involved and get engaged.

Education is absolutely a place where you can have impact in that way.

What brought you to this conversation?

So my background actually is in ethics and philosophy and in thinking about what is a just society and what is a just state.

And my view is really it starts with education, it starts with school.

I think education is our pathway to dignity.

I think it's our pathway to something resembling equity.

And so really, I think education is sort of the foundation of a lot of what we do and what a lot of other policy is built on and so for me i'm sort of a researcher by by nature i you know i study policies and try to understand what are the effects of different policies and why do we have these these inequalities we have and what can we do to address those inequalities and then a lot of my work is trying to find people like Kate who have sort of such good intentions and good ideas about how to reshape their systems locally so that we can try to start a conversation between people who are making decisions when it comes to local and state policy in particular and some of the research that we do in Byworld.

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You've just raised local and state policy.

And for me, the conversation, it may begin at the federal level, but I am myopically focused on local and state implementation and effect,

particularly around the issue of education, because we know that while there may be federal law or federal policy, there is a very intentional devolution of power to the states that makes it easier to fracture us as a country.

Yes, we are decentralized in education, but we have federal laws and mores that say that we should all be treated roughly the same.

And yet around the country, state governments are taking aggressive advantage of the 2022 Carson versus Macon decision.

And for those who don't follow this stuff the way I do, this was a Supreme Court decision that reversed decades of precedent.

And it ruled that states cannot be prohibited from funding religious schools or allowing them to access public school funding.

And so this added religious schools to the list of private schools that could siphon off public school dollars for public, I mean, for private education.

Given the number of voucher bills that are around the country at the state level, this to me seems like the most active area in education policy that we aren't talking about as much as we should.

So, John, what are you seeing and what do you think we should be on the lookout for?

So, I think that is exactly right.

I think this is exactly where our eyes should be focused.

So,

if you look across the country at big policy trends right now, one very striking trend is that we've seen a push, especially in red states, but also in a couple of purple states, toward building what are essentially universal school voucher programs.

And school vouchers have existed for a long time where they're basically government money that would go to families to pay for private school tuition or other kinds of educational expenses.

And we have a very different breed of those policies that have emerged in the last few years where they're available to everyone.

and they're big programs.

So in Arizona, for example, it doesn't matter if you're the wealthiest family in the state of Arizona, you can get this public money and go pay for the private school that you were already paying for anyway.

It just essentially becomes a discount.

And in Arizona, and we've done some research on Arizona, among other places, those are the families that are benefiting from those policies.

It's wealthy families and wealthy communities sending their kids to expensive private schools.

And there has been an interest among many Republicans to try to do something at the federal level when it comes to private school choice.

programs, whether it's a voucher program or something that looks like a voucher program.

And they've had, so they've had trouble getting it passed.

And actually in the first Trump administration, they tried to create what's called a tax credit scholarship program, where basically you give tax credits to people who donate money to organizations that then give vouchers to families.

And the first Trump administration tried to pass that, and they ran up against too much opposition.

from Democrats, but also from those rural Republicans we were talking about earlier who looked around and said, wait a minute, we don't have a bunch of fancy private schools in my area.

Why would we want this policy?

And now we're very likely to see something, some kind of push again, because it has become this sort of red state push in that direction.

But the politics here too are quite interesting because if they tried to pass a private school choice program as a standalone bill, it would very likely fail.

Again, with opposition both unified from Democrats and from a lot of these Republicans who are skeptical.

So what I think is most likely that they're going to do is they're going to try to sneak a big private school choice program into the tax bill next year.

And I hope people are paying attention to that because that

there's a bit of a shell game when it comes to the money because it's a tax credit and then the funds go to these organizations and those to those funds go to families and then to schools.

And so it's a bit hard to follow what it is.

And that tax bill conversation is going to talk about a lot of different issues, but this is a big one.

And it's a big one for public schools because it's going to mean a whole lot of resources that otherwise might have found their way to public schools will find their way to private schools instead.

And

it is a policy and an approach that is inherently antagonistic to our public education system.

And so when people start talking, if that conversation starts about tax credit scholarship programs and what that might look like in tax bills, I would hear that as private school vouchers because it is structurally a little bit differently, but fundamentally, it is the same thing.

And it would pose just as much a threat to public schools as any of those voucher programs that we've talked about in the past.

Absolutely.

Kate, what does that look like in your area?

Have you all been in conversation, especially with teachers or other parents, about how they feel about private school voucher programs?

Georgia has the tax credit.

We were one of the starter states for this tax credit idea.

And how do you feel about it as a parent?

We here in Central Bucks, and

we love our schools, our community schools.

In fact, we are embroiled in a debate over three elementary schools that may need to combine for financial reasons.

And there are people petitioning just to keep their elementary school open.

So

it's a losing issue.

when people understand what's happening and what's at stake.

And there's a wonderful group called Education Voters with PA, and they're in central Pennsylvania, and they have been advocating for equitable funding for all schools for a very, very long time.

They were very influential in the latest school funding bill.

And I mention this because they are just a tremendous resource for all communities

to try to understand what a voucher program would look like.

And we know it just is exactly as John said, it creates just this, you know, stratified sort of system of have and have-nots.

And it just does, it disadvantages so many people.

And it just continues to advantage the wealthy.

And in fact, the whole school choice movement, in my opinion, has really taken advantage of

what people are calling cultural war issues to use to divide communities,

to find favor in private school options.

And really, this is going to benefit who?

Like the billionaires who are going to be making a buck off of education.

And

it's, it's, I think I have always felt

that as complicated and flawed as public education can be,

it is always,

it is always beloved.

And you can really, like, we used to throw out this image of just one of our high school graduation photos where everyone's on the field and they throw their hats up in the air and it just combines like the entire community.

And I mean, that is what schools schools are for communities.

They're anchors.

They're places where people gather.

Nobody wants to see their neighborhood schools closing.

And when you, when you kind of talk about it in those terms, like,

you know, people

typically, you know, will oppose any effort to do so.

I'd like to share a listener question with you that dovetails with what you just said.

Liam Stitt is a 16-year-old in Kaiser, Oregon.

And he wrote, while I'm not old old enough to vote, I have a fascination with politics and government.

I am even the youth liaison from my city's parks and recreation board.

The thing is, it feels like politicians are too busy to talk with constituents.

Is this true?

I've sent various emails and letters to some of my state and federal representatives before, but I always get an automated response.

It can feel disappointing.

I want to know how I can get involved.

apart from learning about it and how can I make sure I am heard when speaking about issues that matter to me.

Okay, here's a thought, Liam.

So, they're not responding to you via email and letters.

Uh, you could show up if that's a possibility for you, just get out there and knock on the door.

Uh, start researching, like looking for local groups that

are advocating issues.

I think, I think it was environmental issues.

Um,

attend a like a township or a city meeting in person.

Make a public comment, introduce yourself to your local leaders.

Many times it's like the hyper-local, like 16.

Okay, so teachers, start asking your teachers first.

It's really about networking

and

using your passion and your voice to kind of just keep going.

It can be a long road or it could be just poof, magically you get in touch with the right person who can help amplify your issue so john do you have advice for liam and as you think about it i also want you to think as someone who is constantly seeing education from the policy perspective and it's informed by what i think is a profound conversation that you had about ethics and how we situate ourselves in society What do you wish more people understood about how education policy decisions are made and their ability to have an impact?

Sure.

So to take the second part of that that question first, I think I mean this very literally.

If you're concerned about what's going on in your schools and you want to have a voice in how education looks locally, you would have more impact being elected as a school board member than you would being elected as president of the United States.

Like that is our school system.

Our school system is hyper local.

And if you're whether you're running for school board and you're actually an elected representative or you're just finding ways to influence decisions that the school board is making, like for all of the conversation that we were having now about the Trump administration and schools, it is really important what happens at the local level and it's really important what happens at the state level and especially locally.

Those are fundamentally accessible institutions.

So I would say to those who are thinking about what can they do, you really can actually do a lot in this space.

And down to I would consider running for school board.

And Liam, that goes for you too.

I mean, I love at age 16 that you're thinking about that already.

I would echo everything Kate said.

I would just say to keep at them.

So

sometimes the reasons why people aren't getting back to you are sort of innocuous and

it's not that they're ignoring you.

Sometimes people get busy.

I mean, I do a lot of work now talking with school board members and our school board members across the country, typically they're

unpaid or definitely underpaid.

They work a lot of hours, they hear from a lot of people, often people who are pretty angry with them.

So keep at people and don't, you know, don't let up.

And I agree with Kate that

go to them.

You know, if it, if making phone calls and sending emails isn't enough, go, you know, go show up in public comment periods and be ready to run for a seat or to be that student liaison on the school board or whatever it may be.

So keep at it because again, these are just fundamentally accessible

institutions of government.

And that's not true for all of our institutions.

And so I would take advantage of that when it comes to schools.

John Vellant, Kate Nazimi, you have given us a lot to think about.

You have helped us understand that the Department of Education is likely not going anywhere, but we've got a lot of other fights we have to fight.

Thank you so much for giving us the steps to get started.

John Vellant, Kate Nazimi, thanks so much for joining me on Assembly Required.

Thanks, Saisie.

Thank you.

As Kate and John talked about, we have a moment before us where we can defend public education, but also the fundamental values that make us strong.

In fact, they gave us a few ideas.

Number one, ask for help.

Get the information you need.

Number two, put sand in the gears.

Make it hard for the people who want to do wrong to do it fast.

And three, show,

don't just tell.

Make certain people understand what it feels like for these changes to be made or for better to be done.

In fact, each week, here's what we do at Assembly Required.

We try to leave the audience with a way to take action, an opportunity to make a difference, and a way to get involved, or just get started on working out a solution, in a segment we like to call our toolkit.

Here at Assembly Required, we encourage the audience to be curious, to solve problems, and do good.

First, check out the work of Advocates for Inclusive Education on Instagram at AFIE Bucks.

There, you can see what a call to action looks like, and you can see links to their blogs and resources.

Perhaps Perhaps it can serve as a template for you, either for you to use to create your own organization or find people that are doing similar things in your community.

And by the way, Kate and her friends, they won.

In 2022, they flipped the school district and started rolling back many of the changes made.

Number two, we should all take a page out of Kate's book and make a list of the people we know and where they work.

Do you know someone who teaches law at the local college that knows folks at the legal organization who can protect transgender rights, or a manager at a local store who can help arrange food drives for children during holiday breaks.

Maybe you'll be surprised at the extent of your network and get some ideas about how to jump in and help.

If you want to tell us what you've learned and what you've solved, send us an email at assemblyrequired at crooked.com or leave us a voicemail, and you and your questions and comments might be featured on the pod.

Our number is 213-293-9509.

That That wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams.

I'll meet you here next week.

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams is a crooked media production.

Our lead show producer is Alona Minkowski, and our associate producer is Paulina Velasco.

Kirill Polaviev is our video producer.

This episode was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton.

Our theme song is by Vasilius Vitopoulos.

Thank you to Matt DeGroat, Kyle Seglund, Tyler Boozer, and Samantha Slossberg for production support.

Our executive producers are Katie Long, Madeline Haringer, and me, Stacey Aprils.

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That's why we have thousands of ASC certified technicians to help you get more out of your car.

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