More Happier: Talking Romance Writing with Stacey Abrams and Lori Gottlieb

Hi everyone, it's Stacey here.

Our team is off this week because of Labor Day, but I wanted to share something special.

You may not know this, but in addition to politics and writing legal thrillers, I also write romantic suspense novels.

For me, romance is fantastic entertainment and so much more.

A good romance combines hope, resilience, and a chance to make mistakes and make them right.

And it celebrates the human connections that sustain us when the world feels overwhelming.

That's why I was delighted to join happiness expert Gretchen Rubin and therapist Lori Gottlieb on the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast for a romance roundtable conversation.

We talked about how romance novels have evolved beyond toxic masculine tropes, why dating culture could use a rewrite, and what my characters have taught me about how to love.

Fighting for justice takes all kinds, and this was a great conversation about what love has to do with it.

I hope you enjoy.

This special episode, the Romance Roundtable, is brought to you exclusively by Audible.

Do you love a good love story?

The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you.

You may love a story about a dalliance with a duke or perhaps a sexy billionaire set in the big city or at the hockey rink or in another realm with dragons.

Hear modern rom-coms from authors like Lily Chu, romanticy series from Sarah J.

Moss and Rebecca Yarrow, regency favorites like the new Audible original Pride and Prejudice, plus the really steamy stuff.

Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com.

Hello, we are here for More Happier, a podcast where we get happier.

Today's episode is a special edition in our roundtable conversation series, and the topic today is romance.

Because for so many of us, romance is an important aspect of a happier life, so it's a great subject for a roundtable discussion.

The three of us are here today to talk it over.

I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness and human nature, and I'm host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.

And here today are my two terrific guests.

First, Stacey Abrams.

Stacey, yes, Stacey Abrams is a best-selling author whose romance novels written under the pen name Selena Montgomery.

I love the idea of having a pen name, explores themes of passion, justice, identity, and power.

Her latest book, Coded Justice, is a legal thriller that takes on questions of technology, ethics, and accountability with romance woven in too.

You may also know her.

as a nationally recognized political leader and voting rights advocate.

She served as minority leader of the Georgia House of Representatives and founded Fair Fight Action and other civic organizations to expand voting access and representation.

Hello, Stacey.

Thank you so much for having me, Gretchen.

It's so fun to have you here.

And I am also excited to be talking to Lori Gottlieb.

Lori Gottlieb is a psychotherapist and New York Times best-selling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has sold more than 3 million copies.

In addition to her clinical practice, she is also co-host of the popular Dear Therapist podcast and writes the Ask the Therapist column for the New York Times.

Hello, Lori.

So great to be here, Gretchen.

Well, it's so fun to be here today to talk to you too about the state of romance.

So in fiction, Stacey, that's your lane.

The reality of it, Lori, that's your lane.

And then where the two of these meet in our daily lives.

And I think we all have some stock ideas of what romance looks like.

But today, let's talk about what romance really means today in our modern lives.

in 2025.

Let's get into it, the mysteries and science of attraction, maintaining passion, practical suggestions for making and keeping connections, and what we value most these days in our most intimate lives.

And let's start with fiction with Stacey.

I am someone who loves fiction and I really place tremendous value on the role of fiction in our lives.

We can learn so much about human nature by studying novels.

Plus, what is more fun than reading?

Nothing.

So, Stacey, when you think about building romance into your stories, how do you think about that element?

I always start with what's the most honest way to connect people,

especially when you're writing suspense, which is what I write, whether I'm writing romantic suspense or legal thrillers, I'm already suspending disbelief about what's happening around them.

People don't get shot at this often by, you know, nefarious third parties

or being threatened by rogue AI.

So the question is, if you're going to create a human relationship, it has to feel so grounded that the absurdities make sense.

And starting there means having characters that you know well enough to understand what do they like, what don't they like, and what do they need.

And often romance is about finding someone who is what you need, but that you are something that they need.

And constructing a novel, you have to think about how do you unravel and reveal each of those pieces and set it up so that it happens in between, you know, mayhem and torture.

Well, when you say what people need, what kind of things do you think of as what people need?

So, for example, my very very first romance novel, it was a spy who basically felt responsible for the death of people around her, including the death of the best friend of the man she was in love with.

He was angry with her, had given up his back.

He basically abandoned his career because he could not trust.

And so she needed to find someone who understood her and could.

help her forgive herself.

And he needed someone who could push him past his suspicions and his instinctive rejection of support.

And so they had to find each other, but they had to navigate the fact that maybe sort of she killed his best friend.

And they had to save the world while they were doing it.

Right.

Oh, so by a need, it's very specific.

That's so interesting.

I will say it's typically a core need that we, if we were told to articulate it, we could, but it would take talking to Lori first and laying on a couch.

But you can usually tell that with most people, we kind of know with our friends, this is a person or this is a gap.

And you don't want someone to fill your hole, but you want someone who helps you understand how to make yourself better.

So I'm also very intentional about never having the solution to a problem be another person.

It's having another person help my main character find their own solution.

Interesting.

Now, have you noticed a shift in what readers expect from romance in fiction today as opposed to like 10 years or 20 years ago?

Are there certain tropes or themes that fall in and out of favor that you've noticed?

I mean, certainly in the early 80s, early 90s, hypermasculinity was a big part of the romance novel genre.

We've seen that hypermasculinity necessarily be reduced in part because it often was a cloak for non-consent or for an aggressive approach to romance.

That was a bit of a shorthand.

I don't have to deal with my issues because I can just sweep you up in an embrace.

and tell you who you need to be.

But I think it's also women, because I write from a woman's perspective, it's making sure that the women who are at the center of the novels have as much agency in who they want to be with as they do in the fact that they're going to fall in love and what they do with their daily lives.

And just back to sort of what you were saying before about you want to write something that feels real and that people can really identify with, but you're in these tremendously heightened circumstances that most of us do not face and seem sort of extreme.

How do you balance that idea of the fantastical or the idealized elements in romance, which is part of what people like in romance, and also the sense of realism that people can connect with?

Because we want both things at the same time.

That seems hard to manage.

Well, when I'm writing a suspense novel, my theory is I can write something that is improbable but not impossible.

When it comes to romance, you want to write things that are idealized but not absurd.

Meaning, that you are going to have the conversation instead of talking past each other.

You are going to confront this instead of pretending you didn't see the note.

It's idealized in the sense that people behave better than they would have to.

They eventually do.

They make the mistakes.

And you can't follow a journey if there aren't detours.

But I try to make certain that you're not screaming at the book, just do this.

Unless it's you, if you're screaming, it should be because you're encouraging, not because you're frustrated and about to throw the book across the room.

And I think the fantastical elements that tend to happen are ones where problems get automatically solved or worse, where those problems aren't real and they're just in the heads of the person.

That to me, and this goes back to the tropes, making sure we no longer dismiss legitimate pain or pretend that legitimate pain can be overcome with a good kiss and a good romance.

Like a very easy resolution, you feel like that's not satisfying anymore.

That's not giving people the working through of a problem.

Exactly.

They want to join you in the journey, but they want to believe that when they leave you behind and can't come and visit you on Thursday, that you're still going to be okay.

And if you have the sort of sort of Damocles of emotional harm hanging out there, I'm going to be worried about you.

And so I need to know that you at least now have the tools to navigate once I close the book.

Yeah.

When you're trying to build characters that really feel like they're related to each other, you said part of it is that need that they're fulfilling.

But what else do you do to make it feel earned and natural?

Because I almost think that this is something that people do look to fiction as kind of a model for like, how do people have conversations?

Or like, how would you handle that moment of engagement?

Do you listen to people that you overhear in a coffee shop?

How do you listen so that it has that ring of truth?

Yeah.

So in Coded Justice, which is a legal thriller, there is a relationship.

Avery Keene, my main character, has a boyfriend that she met in the first book under very dark circumstances.

And they're still together.

But there's a tension that's developing.

There are other people who might like her and she's got to figure out where does she sit.

And so one of the scenes in the book is a conversation that she has first with her best friend.

And so I think it's important that you have a broad canvas of people.

Yes.

And so, yeah, right.

So I've replicated conversations I've had with girlfriends, girlfriends have had with me, where I'm like, you do know what you said.

You do know what that is.

And so, you know, that conversation you have where you're telling what happened from your point of view.

Yes.

And then your best friend's like, you are full of

what did you actually think happened?

So I have that kind of scene.

And then I have a scene where they actually don't directly confront what's happening, but they both know there's something.

And so I think before you jump to the resolution, you owe the reader the journey of both sides understanding there's something happening.

And so I try to make sure there are small scenes that really signal we all know what we're seeing without there having to be a lot of exposition.

Because to your point about conversation, we learn most in dialogue.

And in writing, it's easier to tell than it is to show.

And I try really hard to find ways to show the dynamic.

It may be a hand on the small of her back.

It may be her leaning her head against his shoulder or bringing him dinner.

But it's something that signals that I know something has happened.

And in addition to the big conversation we have to have, let's show the small elements of relationship that feel familiar so that when the next terrible, crazy thing happens, I believe enough in you that I'm going to trust you to come back and make it better.

Yeah.

And when you're reading and all that is so satisfying to see those small changes happen, that's what gives it that ring of truth.

So interesting.

Well, coming up, we're going to hear from lauri gottlieb about the realities of modern relationships that she has observed as a therapist and also in her own life but before that i want to say thanks to our sponsor today audible do you love a captivating love story are you hungry for a romance that will transport you to another place in time you can find whatever you're looking for with audible The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you.

Do you enjoy a love story featuring a Duke or perhaps a sexy entrepreneur?

Do you prefer a story set in the excitement of a big city, in the charm of a small town, at a busy ranch or a bustling college campus?

Or maybe on a movie set, at the beach or by a hockey rink?

Do you seek out stories set in the distant past, in the familiar present, or in the remote future?

Or maybe nothing on this earth satisfies your imagination and you want to find find love in another realm with dragons.

Maybe you love a story in which friends become lovers or enemies become lovers.

Or maybe you love a story of a second chance or forced proximity or a love triangle.

That's one of my favorites.

I love a good love triangle.

You can find all those stories and more with Audible.

With Audible, you can hear modern rom-coms from authors like Lily Chu, the latest romanticy series from Sarah J.

Moss and Rebecca Yaros, regency favorites like the new Audible original Pride and Prejudice, plus all the really steamy stuff.

When it comes to what romance you're into, you can find anything and everything you're looking for with Audible.

Audible is the leading creator and provider of premium audio storytelling.

Audible excites the imagination with stories and ideas that open you up to more possibilities.

Listening can change your mood, your life, maybe even the world.

Listening gives you a break from the everyday and allows you to dream bigger.

And if you've never listened on Audible before, here is a great deal for you.

Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at Audible.com.

That's right.

Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at Audible.com.

And now let's turn to some observations and insights from Lori, and then we'll have a a conversation with all three of us at the end.

But first, Laurie, you deal with people.

I'm sure relationships come up all the time.

What do you think are some of the major misconceptions about romance that people have these days?

Maybe from their own upbringing, maybe it's from the media, maybe it's from fiction.

Do we have any ideas that just aren't very helpful?

Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones is that people think romance needs to be really big, like the grand romantic gesture.

And sometimes the most romantic thing is the really small thing.

It's like what Stacey was saying, like, did the person put their hand on the small of your back when you were entering a restaurant?

The little things that they notice about you.

There's such an intimacy around just being noticed and understood.

And so a romantic gesture is just maybe something a little bit unexpected because we need a little mystery to it, but that happens to come from a grounded place and not a, let's do this huge thing and that's going to be romantic because it doesn't feel personal and it doesn't feel like you're really known.

So the more that the gesture includes something very specific about you makes it incredibly romantic.

So you think people have this kind of idea that you need to have this prom posal Instagram grand gesture with a hundred roses or something, whereas in fact, what really makes people feel loved and seen is when you're like, oh, I saw your favorite super random flavor of ice cream in the drugstore and so I brought some home for you.

Yes, yes.

Or it's like, you know, I'm going to make this dessert that I know you love, but it's a surprise.

And you come in from a day at work and you were not expecting that.

And that's incredibly romantic.

So it feels, it seems like it's domestic, but it's actually romantic.

Is there anything else?

Any other kind of big watch outs that's very useful to think about?

Both on the receiving end and on the giving end, I would say.

I think that people put too much pressure.

on the need for romance.

So romance comes organically.

The best romance is something that naturally happens.

Of course, you have to be intentional about it, but you don't want to put pressure on it.

So when they're a holiday, like Valentine's Day, everybody's trying so hard to be romantic.

And most people end up saying, I had the worst time at this restaurant with, you know, it was like this beautiful restaurant, but it didn't feel romantic at all, you know, or the flowers or this or that.

There's sort of these expectations and these symbols, like it has to be flowers or jewelry or whatever these symbols are of romance that don't tend to really speak to, I think, what can be an elevated sense of romance.

It reminds me, I had this couple and the woman woman was saying to her husband, you know what the most romantic words you could say to me?

You know what, three words, I would really like to hear more.

And he, of course, said, I love you.

I need to say I love you more.

She said, no, it's I understand you.

She's like, that is so romantic.

When you say, I understand you.

It's so intimate to be understood fully by this person that you're, you know, that you have this chemistry with.

Well, now when people are so busy, there's so much pressure, there's so many demands on our time.

Do you think people give priority to their romantic relationships these days?

Do you think that is something?

I mean, people are certainly drawn to reading about romance.

They love reading about romance.

Do you think that in their own lives they're making it a priority?

I think they aren't making it a priority as much as they could.

I think that's why, partly why Stacey's books, which are excellent anyway, but I think that's why people want to read about it because they feel like, wait a minute, I need more of that.

That's missing in my life.

And so I think that people need to think more about it.

But again, in these smaller ways, I love what Stacey said earlier about sort of the intersection of mayhem and torture, which I thought was an apt description of romance.

Oh, yeah.

Right?

So it's like you want it to be something that feels different and exciting.

But you know, like when you're in the beginning of a relationship and it feels so romantic, because you're like, will this person call me?

Do they like me?

What's going to happen next?

Are we going to kiss on this date?

You know, what's going to happen?

Are we going to end up in bed together?

It's all that sort of the torture of like waiting between dates.

And then there's the mayhem of just it takes you out of your everyday life.

So I think when people want to focus on romance, they need to think, what would take us out of our everyday life right now?

Like it could be the simplest thing of let's go dancing.

We don't do that.

Like let's just go dancing, right?

It's the simplest thing or even things that make you feel like doing something that does not feel like your daily thing.

Like let's go to an amusement park and have this.

scary experience on a roller coaster.

The research that shows that if a couple does something that elevates their heart rate, they read it as emotional excitement, even though it's just like, no, that's just roller coaster, but you can kind of fake it.

Right.

And you're also, you're in this heightened state.

And I think, you know, it's when you're doing an activity.

So, you know, a lot of people say, well, like fighting crime.

Exactly.

You have to really up the antsy there.

Yeah.

But I do think that some people will say, oh, it's really romantic if we're like sitting on the couch watching Netflix.

And it can be really romantic if the mood is right and you have the setting right.

But it's also really romantic to do something completely out of both of your ordinary experiences, you know, like going on the roller coasters or taking a dance class or whatever it is.

Well, speaking of torture and mayhem, let's talk about the dating apps and online interactions.

How has that changed the way people develop a romantic connection these days?

Is it making it easier to fast track to intimacy?

It's kind of a different courtship.

How do you see that playing out?

I think it's much less romantic.

So so many of my therapy clients are using the dating apps and they're all talking about how they're missing that element of courtship.

They're missing that element of, first of all, discovery, getting to know someone.

You know, you've got all this information on an app and then you project onto it.

It's like, oh, this person likes this music.

That means they must be like this kind of person.

And so you have all this kind of pre-loaded information, but also there's not a lot of focus on one person because people will go on a date.

They will say, oh, I had a pretty good time.

And then they go home and there's more notifications on their app and they're like, what about this person?

What about this person?

And so it becomes more job interviewing than it does

looking for, being curious about another person and seeing who they are.

And that the excitement, there's the romance of discovering who another person is.

And when you feel like, well, I'm just looking at these profiles, it's like looking at a lot of resumes.

And it feels like people are looking at your resume.

And it doesn't feel like there's that intangible jein seism that's happening between the two of you.

Yeah, it just makes it much harder.

Well, what are some unspoken rules or expectations that seem to govern modern romance that might have been different in previous generations?

Are there different rules?

Are people confused about how to go forward?

I think that the rules would be more helpful.

So people went through this phase where they rebelled against the rules.

There are so many books that say throw out the rules, right?

And there are certain rules you don't want to have because they're kind of manipulative and passive aggressive.

But I think certain rules, like if you're not interested in someone don't ghost them

those kinds of rules right people think that there are no rules at all and so then people get very hurt people don't know what to expect people don't know what is expected of them yes someone might be interested in you or you might be interested in them and you think well am i supposed to wait a day am i not supposed to wait a day well they think i'm not interested if i you know, wait too long or I don't wait long enough.

Do I feel pathetic and desperate to them?

So, you know, people don't know what the rules are.

And I think it's kind of like what we need is an aquarium.

So before there was kind of a fishbowl, the rules were too constrictive.

And then it just became an ocean where nobody knows what they're doing and everyone's kind of lost just swimming around.

And I think we need more of an aquarium where it's, these are the conventions that most people go by.

And it kind of gives you a sense of understanding, well, what does the person mean by that?

Or can we communicate this in this way?

Well, it's funny that you say that because I took a watercolor class and the teacher was so committed to saying that there are no rules and there's no right way and wrong way that when somebody was asking about three-point perspective, she was just like, clearly, there is a way to do that where it looks like you have perspective.

And yet she didn't want to say there was a right way to do it.

And I was like, it's okay.

You can say this is the rule for how to like draw that way.

But I think there is this feeling like there should be no rules, but then you don't know how to behave properly.

And I wonder, Stacey, do you think that this is part of why fiction is satisfying?

Because it is a universe where you sort of understand,

it feels more understandable why people are doing what they're doing.

And you are sort of in this place where you do understand the rules or the universe that you're in.

Whereas now it's like you're playing by your rules.

Somebody's got their own rules.

It's hard to navigate.

Yeah.

I mean, part of it is there's the rule that it's romance, which helps constrain.

I mean, to Lori's point about the fishbowl and the ocean.

Yeah.

You at least want to know that you're in water.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was talking to a guy where he was like, oh, I'm always friends with women.

They always want to be friends with me, but he didn't want to use dating apps.

And somebody's like, but the thing about a dating app is you can say, I'm looking for a long-term relationship.

And they'll know that's what you want because you keep getting friend zoned.

You need to tell people that you're looking for romance.

Exactly.

And part of writing romance well is being clear about the intention, even if the person doesn't intend to fall in love, but you know that.

So you're on the journey of discovery when they realize they're wrong, or the person is looking for love and you're with them as they stumble through.

But it gives the reader a reason to stay.

And I think to Lori's point, if you don't have a reason to be there, you don't have a reason to stay.

And that's where rules help.

They help give us at least

guardrails help.

Otherwise, you're falling off the side of bridges and you can't, I'm sorry, I'm extending the metaphor way too far for a writer.

But you do want the ability to have some, not constraint on who you are.

but some guardrails so that you also have guides for where you're trying to get to.

Right.

Well, do you think, both of you tackle this, do you think that there is a way that fictional portrayals of romance help people understand their own relationships or navigate their own relationships?

I mean, even if they are somewhat idealized, but do you think it does help people make sense of what they're experiencing?

Or do you think that maybe it because it's idealized, does it raise their expectations too high?

What do you think?

So I'm going to let Lori tell me if I'm messing up people's lives first, and then I'll tell you what I think.

Okay, okay, okay.

I think that people might have unrealistic expectations, but I also think that at least they're getting some sense of what that excitement can look like.

You know, especially for people in today's world where they don't get a lot of romance, where they can say, oh, you know what?

I would like some of that in my life.

I would like to be more intentional about getting some of that in my life.

And I think the other thing that Stacey said earlier was about how we don't want to complete another person, but another person can help us become complete by motivating us to fill in the gaps in our own lives.

And so there's this saying, we marry our unfinished business that we definitely are, you know, that chemistry, when we talk about romance, that chemistry initially is often a little bit of, there's something that's kind of unfinished in you and you kind of see it in the other person and they kind of see it in you.

And there's this chemical explosion that happens.

Now, coming back to reality, then when you get together, you have to see, well, is this the kind of a healthy unfinished business that we can help each other with and help each other grow?

Or is this something where we're trying to get the other person to complete us?

But I love what fiction does.

And fiction kind of shows us the ways in which we can have a healthy version of that.

And I wonder sometimes if you see an unhealthy version play out, maybe that's useful too, because you say, like, oh, I recognize this pattern.

Oh, I've had that conversation myself.

And let's look how it's playing out.

in a way that's not good.

Well, what do you think, Stacey?

Yeah, in my novel, Never Tell, it's my serial killer romance novel.

But the intention was to show a young woman who had been in a terrible, toxic relationship, trying to find her way.

She did not want to fall in love, but there's a scene, one of my favorite scenes to write.

She is talking to another young woman who has had a similar background and similar experience.

And she says something to the effect of, you know, I can believe in you for you.

until you can believe in yourself.

And there's something about romance that lets us believe that the possibility is out there.

Even if we can't see it right now, it's waiting for us.

And I think the fictionalized version is a renewal system.

It says, as long as people are writing about romance, as long as they are talking about what's possible, it gives us the sense that maybe the look and the search can go on.

It's the hardship is when we forget that we are not those characters.

and we expect the other person in the relationship to respond the way the character did in the book.

Yes.

And so part of our responsibility is to recognize that we may have read the book, but the other person hasn't.

And so we've got to have some grace for that.

But we also have to remember that we're not that idealized character either.

And I think where fiction can be so helpful is it's a mirror to who we are and are not, but it's also a roadmap to what else we want to be.

And do you think that that does happen sometimes where people almost are like, I'll play this character and you'll play that character.

Like I'll say my lines.

Now you need to say your lines, but that's not how relationships work in real life.

And yet you can get sort of drawn into this thinking of there are sort of a play that could be played out.

I've seen that in my own life with people.

And it's just like you're not both in the same play.

Also, I think there's something to remember that our partners will disappoint us and we will disappoint them.

And so, you know, I think when people have this romantic checklist of I want all these qualities and the person has to be like this and they have to know what to say and they have to be charming and funny in every moment.

Well, first of all, I'm not realistic, but also it's not just what is on your list.

I'll say to people, okay, so that's your list of what you want.

Make a list now of all the things that someone would have to put up with to be with you.

Ooh, that is a great exercise.

Because then you have a little more grace for the other person.

It's that, you know, you also are a human being and you also have things that might not be in their script of romance either.

And yet what I think is great about romance is that it transcends those things.

That people then say, look, I'm not perfect.

You're not perfect.

We don't hold each other to these perfect standards and there's something incredibly romantic about and I love you deeply for all of who you are including that and you know all the other good parts so it's not just like with romance I think where people get kind of tripped up is they think only the good parts are part of it but there's something so romantic about being loved for the entirety of who you are which might not fit into the rubric of what you would maybe put on a list of what's romantic.

I mean, one of the things I use in my novels is just always in the back of my head is the line from the musical rent.

You know, I've got baggage, you've got baggage.

I'm looking for baggage that goes with mine.

Oh, yes.

And I misquoted.

So I've got baggage, you've got baggage too.

Anyway, there's a purist who's going to be mad at me, but the whole point is that last line, I'm looking for baggage that goes with mine.

And to Lori's point, part of it is we've got to acknowledge our own baggage.

And I think the richest characters that I write, the books I love and go back to, the baggage of the characters is what I'm wanting.

I want to see what you've done wrong.

I want to know how I can map differently.

But it also is a reminder that it's okay and that I'm a little broken and I don't need you to fix me.

I just need you to recognize that the broken pieces are there and that I'm still worth the investment.

I think some of the most exciting and transcendent moments of connection, either that I've seen in novels or in television shows, movies, plays, is when there is a moment where you can see that someone is making a choice of how to respond.

And they're sort of like, are they going to respond the way they've always responded?

Or are they now going to see that there is a possibility to make a bigger choice and to do something with more grace and love?

And then when they do that, and yet, Stacey, back to your point, it's like, it has to feel earned.

It has to feel like somebody would actually do in the moment.

But when they make that choice, it does make you feel like there is a possibility for more love in the world.

There is an opportunity for people to make a different choice.

That is the more loving choice.

And Lori, I imagine you see these moments in your work.

And it's just whenever you encounter them in life or in fiction, it's like that is what is so exciting, I think.

There's something I often say with couples, which is before you say something, imagine how it's going to land on the other person.

And there's something about those moments where the person couldn't do it, couldn't do it, couldn't do it.

And then you see it happen right in front of you where all of a sudden they make a different choice and they say it a different way.

And you see the results in the partner because we're all doing this dance.

And so if you change your dance steps, the other person's going to change their dance steps too, or else they're going to fall off the dance floor or leave the dance floor.

And so when you make that choice, when you imagine what is it going to feel like when I say this, how's it going to land on the other person?

They're going to have a totally different reaction to you too.

And I'm sure you practically see like a light bulb going on over their head.

You know?

Yeah, I mean, that's one of the things that surprised me most like in writing about happiness is we can't change other people, but when I change, a relationship changes.

And when a relationship changes, the atmosphere around us changes.

And so sometimes we we do change other people just by changing ourselves.

What I like to say is we can't change other people, but we can influence other people to change.

There you go.

Stacey, do you think that reading romance novels makes people more loving?

Or do you think sometimes people just read it for just the joy of it and it doesn't really sink in?

Or both, maybe.

I'm just curious.

I think it's both.

I think when you read a really good romance novel that has rich characters who have earned their joy, but who who have also changed in a way that feels authentic and accessible.

It stays with you because the book stays with you.

That character stays with you.

And it's hard to have something living in your head that doesn't influence who you are.

So I don't think it's these seismic moments, but I do think there's influence.

And for people for whom it's just a skim and move, they're not really diving deep so that you're not going to see a lot of change.

But at least during the times they're reading, they're not out there being mean.

So there's that.

And Lori, what do you think?

do you think that reading romance can help people to see a like a different path i think there's something really hopeful about reading romance yes i think we really need that sense of hope it's hopeful that's a really good word for it so yes the characters are idealized and they're saying the right things eventually you know as they go through their journeys But I also think it gives us hope that we can change too, that we can have something different, that if we are more aware, we can maybe have the kind of thing that we want with a partner.

So I find them incredibly hopeful.

Okay, last question for each of you.

I always like to ask guests if they have a try this at home suggestion for listeners, something simple and concrete that they could do in their everyday lives to make their lives, in this case, more romantic, to bring more romance into their lives.

So Stacey, do you have a suggestion?

So I talk about the four quadrants that Dwight Eisenhower had.

Things that are important and urgent, things that are important but not urgent, things that are urgent but not important.

But my favorite section is the not important, not urgent.

We rarely let ourselves go there.

And I think that's like at least once a week.

Make certain that you and your partner are doing something that's not important and not urgent.

And if you don't have a partner, do it for yourself so that you're ready when you meet someone because you've given yourself this chance to decompress.

You didn't change anything.

You didn't help anybody.

And that was perfectly okay.

Well, and you're not marching through a to-do list or like racing around a hardware store.

You just, let's just stroll down the street.

And exactly.

I love that because everybody talks about the other quadrants, but nobody talks about that quadrant.

I am a firm believer in not important and not urgent.

I love that.

Lori, how about you?

First of all, I love that so much.

Yes.

Not important, not urgent.

I feel like that needs to be a mug.

Yeah.

Yes.

And a life practice.

Yes.

I think that something that.

people undervalue about romance is the sense of being delighted in by the other person.

Yes.

There's that sense of this person is just delighted to be with me and I'm just delighted to be with that other person.

But we forget that in our daily lives.

You know, we're like going through things.

You know, we know the other person loves us.

Right.

But do they delight in us?

So some things that my therapy clients have found is that when they do something that shows their delight, it's the smallest thing.

You know, I delight in the way that they laugh when this happens, right?

And you really make it clear that you delight in that, in that moment.

I think just sharing how much you delight in the other person is the smallest thing.

It doesn't, it's not expensive.

It's not a big deal.

You don't have to plan it.

It just, when you notice yourself delighting in your partner, communicate that.

It just changes the entire environment in the room.

And I think it's something that we don't share enough.

We might be thinking it, but we don't actually share it.

And even if you don't have a partner, when do you delight in yourself?

What are those moments when you delight in yourself?

Can you take a moment and say, that was delightful?

I really love that about myself.

Well, I love that we're ending on the notes of of delight and not urgent and not important.

That sounds just so enticing.

So, thank you, Lori.

Thank you, Stacey.

And that is it for this romance roundtable episode of Happier.

Thank you to Stacey Abrams and Lori Gottlieb for this terrific conversation.

It was so much fun.

Thanks to our producer, Chuck Reed, and to Audible.

Remember, the best time to start a happiness project is 20 years ago.

The second best time is now.

Thanks for listening to the Romance Roundtable, which was brought to you exclusively by Audible.

Do you love a good love story?

The Audible Romance Collection has audiobooks that will satisfy every side of you.

You may love a story about a dalliance with a duke or perhaps a sexy entrepreneur.

You may love one set in the big city, or at the hockey rink, or in another realm with dragons.

Hear modern rom-coms from authors like Lily Chu, romanticy series from Sarah J.

Moss and Rebecca Yaros, regency favorites like the new Audible original Pride and Prejudice, plus the really steamy stuff.

Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com.

Go to Audible.com.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Gretchen and Lori as much as I did.

If you take one thing from this episode, let it be this.

Love stories and the connections that sustain us aren't a distraction from the fight for justice.

They remind us why the fight matters.

We can choose care over isolation and hope over cynicism.

Love is a revolutionary idea.

If you want more conversations like this one, I encourage you to subscribe to Happier with Gretchen Rubin, wherever you get your podcast.

Each week, Gretchen and her sister Elizabeth Kraft talk about practical strategies for building better habits, finding joy in daily life, and creating more connection.

All the things that keep us grounded when the world feels like it's going crazy.

Well, that wraps up this special episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams.

Keep believing in happy endings, and I'll meet you here next week.

Assembly Required is a crooked media production.

Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts, and our associate producer is Farah Safari.

Kirill Polaviev is our video producer.

This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis.

Our theme song is by Vasilis Photopoulos.

Thank you to Matt DeGroat, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote, and Priyanka Muntha for production support.

Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abrams.

I'm going to put you on, nephew.

All right, um.

Welcome to McDonald's.

Can I take your order?

Miss, I've been hitting up McDonald's for years.

Now it's back.

We need snack wraps.

What's a snack rap?

It's the return of something great.

Snack wrap is back.