Gaza Under Siege: Netanyahu’s Use of Violence to Maintain Power

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Speaker 1 Welcome to Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm your host, Stacey Abrams.

Speaker 1 Over the past few months, we've been talking about the rise of authoritarianism in the United States using my framework of the 10 steps to autocracy.

Speaker 1 We've dug into the reality that millions of Americans feel abandoned by a system that no longer serves them, if they believe it ever did.

Speaker 1 In response, and accelerated by the wanton actions of this Republican regime, trust in democratic institutions is fracturing, leaving many confused, disillusioned, and disengaged.

Speaker 1 This widespread disillusionment with democracy's protections has set us on a dangerous trajectory to authoritarianism. But unfortunately, we're not alone.

Speaker 1 Around the globe, democracy experts are sounding the alarm about an ideological fracturing, one that sees promise in backsliding away from democracy.

Speaker 1 Right-wing nationalism is gaining ground across almost every continent, from European hardliners to Latin American despots to Africa's new wave of democratic dictators and Middle Eastern strongmen.

Speaker 1 Wherever they are, these autocrats are doing whatever is necessary to stay in power.

Speaker 1 One of the most entrenched examples is Benjamin Netanyahu's Israel, a country with an ultra-right-wing prime minister who has embraced the most extreme anti-democratic elements in order to stay in power.

Speaker 1 From attempts to weaken competing powers to attacking media and the truth, he has presided over the erosion of democracy in Israel.

Speaker 1 When Israel faced attack on October 7th, 2023, a declaration of war against Hamas fits squarely in the understood response to the horror.

Speaker 1 Nations around the world and Americans like myself believed that the murder of 1200 Israelis and the demand of return of Israeli hostages justified aggressive action, though the subsequent response became wildly disproportionate.

Speaker 1 But step nine in the authoritarian playbook seeks to normalize state violence as a means not of protection, but of control.

Speaker 1 The two-year result of Netanyahu's pursuit of unfettered power has been a campaign of unrelenting devastation against the Palestinian people, a campaign which experts and allies around the world and across ideology have called genocide.

Speaker 1 Netanyahu's autocratic consolidation of power has been conducted under the guise of a war that many in the Israeli intelligence and military communities, let alone the families of hostages, hostages, believe served his ambition of staying in office.

Speaker 1 Even in a period of ceasefire, he has continued to authorize killings that have added more than 100 people, including dozens of children, to the death toll.

Speaker 1 Now, I will acknowledge here that some listening to this episode will be concerned that I'm criticizing Israel's right to exist or to defend itself. I am not.

Speaker 1 I support a democratic state of Israel and a democratic state of Palestine. But that is not the issue before us today on the show.

Speaker 1 You see, in the quest to recognize authoritarianism and defend individual rights and liberties, we don't get to selectively acknowledge those who act against the perquisites of democracy.

Speaker 1 To do otherwise is to participate in hiding the truth. And here, the threat is clear.
As democracies weaken, autocrats thrive.

Speaker 1 And if we don't recognize these patterns, both abroad and here at home, with our friends and our enemies, we risk watching freedom vanish in real time.

Speaker 1 Today on the show, we'll be speaking with Senator Chris Van Holland about how he is approaching democracy's position in Israel and here in America.

Speaker 1 And we'll be joined by foreign policy analyst and author Rula Jabril to discuss the current state of the conflict, the role of authoritarianism in the region, and what we can do to help.

Speaker 1 Rula, thank you so much for joining today on Assembly Required.

Speaker 3 Thank you for having me, Stacey. So good to see you.

Speaker 1 So Rula, you were telling me about the origin of your name, which I think is a nice way to start this conversation. Can you tell our audience about where Rula comes from?

Speaker 3 Rula is a Middle Eastern name that you can find very often in Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, across the Middle East, predominantly.

Speaker 3 And Rulah is a name of a tribe, tribe that was ruled by women, because men were always gone, whether it's trade or war. So the...

Speaker 3 you know there was there was some kind of assembly and women the elderly women decided that they take over because the men were gone many of them didn't return and

Speaker 3 till now there's a poem about this tribe and their strength and their resilience.

Speaker 3 I must say, when my father and my mother decided to give me that name, I think my mother intention was, we had it enough with men leading and ruling. They created a disaster.

Speaker 3 So let's give this girl a name, which means, you know, a leader.

Speaker 1 Well, you've certainly been a leader on

Speaker 1 the clarion call about what's happening in Palestine and what's happening between Israel and Palestine.

Speaker 1 And we know that after two years, we finally have a ceasefire agreement in place between Israel and Hamas, but Israel has continued to kill Palestinians.

Speaker 1 And humanitarian groups are warning that they are still facing obstruction in the delivery of aid. Can you walk us through what's happening in Gaza right now in spite of the ceasefire?

Speaker 3 So the ceasefire agreement was signed two weeks ago. It was was imposed on the Israelis.
The Israelis

Speaker 3 didn't want that agreement. And I'm talking about the government of Israel.
Netanyahu did not want that agreement. But something changed in the last month

Speaker 3 because I think it became clear to this American administration, especially after

Speaker 3 Israel bombed Qatar,

Speaker 3 why the bombing in Qatar changed. a lot of what we're seeing today.
Qatar is, you know, there is a military base, the biggest American military base in the Middle East is in Qatar called Al-Audaida.

Speaker 3 There's tens of thousands of American soldiers. But also, Donald Trump has a very special relationship with a lot of these rulers, very rich rulers in the region.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 somehow that

Speaker 3 changed his approach to

Speaker 3 especially to unconditional support to Israel and imposed on them what a lot of the leaders in the Middle East would have trying to lobby America to do, which is impose a ceasefire, threaten to cut military aid.

Speaker 3 This is the only way they will stop the war. And they saw that for almost two years, nobody was willing really to do the work.
Donald Trump decided to do it.

Speaker 3 His desire to have a Nobel Peace Prize, he thought this might get him.

Speaker 3 But for any ceasefire to hold, it requires serious pressure on Israel, but also it requires a serious threat of sanctions and serious threat to withhold military aid.

Speaker 3 Stacey, I just want to conclude saying that last week, 450 prominent Jewish intellectuals, Oscar-winning directors, and others published in a newspaper a letter begging the world to sanction Israel, begging the world to save Israel from itself and apply sanction so the mass killing and mass starvation ends.

Speaker 1 One of the reasons I wanted to have you on today and to have this conversation is that in the United States, we have a difficult time having complex conversations.

Speaker 1 And there is a deep and long-standing,

Speaker 1 not just partnership, but defense of Israel in this country. I personally have had the opportunity to visit Israel and to visit West Bank settlements and to see what it's like firsthand.

Speaker 1 And there is something compelling when you are in conversation in Tel Aviv. There is something, however, that is deeply damning when you can see over the settlements and into

Speaker 1 where Palestinians live. Can you describe the conditions that Palestinians lived in prior to October 7th as a way of bringing us together about the conversation we need to have?

Speaker 3 So Stacey,

Speaker 3 I am a Palestinian.

Speaker 3 I was born in Haifa and I lived my entire life in Jerusalem, in East Jerusalem, in occupied East Jerusalem.

Speaker 3 I am a member of the Afro-Palestinian community. So we are Palestinians who happen to have their ancestors also be African.

Speaker 3 And we have an amazing neighborhood in the old city of Jerusalem called Babil Majlis. And it's at the center of that neighborhood next to the Aksa Mosque.

Speaker 3 Very close to us, there is a holy sepulchre, which is the most important church. The keys of that church are in the hands of a Muslim family.

Speaker 3 The protector and the custodian of that church for centuries have to be, was and continue to be two Muslim families and Nashashibi Asari. Those Muslim families wanted to protect the church.

Speaker 3 I think that's the biggest honor to protect the church. I think there's an unspoken agreement in Palestine for centuries, which is communities take care of each other.

Speaker 3 The freedom, our freedom, our liberty, our rights are intertwined.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 to be upheld, they have to be upheld for everyone. Otherwise, it doesn't work.
And I think that was a history that we were told as children.

Speaker 3 At a very young age, we were told by our grandparents and our parents. And that is the soul of Jerusalem.

Speaker 3 However, since 1967, since Israel occupied illegally the West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem, millions of people have been living without political right, civil right, social right whatsoever.

Speaker 3 And the only answer that Israel or the only methodology and way to deal with the Palestinians who are living in this part of

Speaker 3 the country was through violence, whether it's settler violence or the IDF violence.

Speaker 3 And the saddest part that a lot of people who claim to be friends of Israel ignored at the core that Zionism and especially the laws that were emanated, especially 2008 law that says that Israel is a state and a country that is exclusively for Jewish Israeli.

Speaker 3 It's only them that have the right to self-determination.

Speaker 3 The problem with that declaration, that means the millions of Palestinians, 7 million Palestinians, if you exclude them from the right of self-determination, you are declaring your country as, you know, I don't want to even use the word racist, an apartheid country that have sets of laws and rules that are different, depend on your ethnicity.

Speaker 3 America was always going to be a great nation. It has so many incredible, you know, elements to it, but it also had slavery and it had Jim Crow.

Speaker 3 You cannot study the history of America, looking at sending a man to the moon and Lincoln, but not study what happened to African Americans. Exactly the same for Israel.

Speaker 3 I think it's paramount at this point to look at the reality for what it is, to look at the laws. We have segregated laws, we had racist laws, and we have also laws that apply only to Palestinians.

Speaker 3 The Israeli parliament approved a motion

Speaker 3 for death penalty only for Palestinians if they are convicted of terrorism. What if an Israeli is convicted of terrorism? Well, they said the law doesn't apply to him because

Speaker 3 he has a superior status. What is that superior status? His religion.
I have a Jewish husband.

Speaker 3 My Jewish husband, who was not born in Israel, who is not an Israeli citizen, would have a superior status than I do and my entire family simply because of his faith.

Speaker 3 And I, who am born in that country, and my ancestor for centuries lived in that country, we have no rights. This is exactly the heart, the core of the conflict.

Speaker 1 Is your answer a two-state solution? And if so, how would that manifest itself? I mean, you just described what is necessarily a religious ethno-state for Israel.

Speaker 1 And I would presume the same would be intended for Palestine. But what would a two-state solution look like in your mind?

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 in 1993, Palestinians gave the biggest concession ever. They signed an agreement accepting 22% of their historical land, accepted the West Bank and Gaza.

Speaker 3 And they decided, you know, we need to move forward. We need a state.
We need to give our people hope and self-determination.

Speaker 3 That 22%

Speaker 3 was all that's left that they thought they could take. But also they were willing to, we're open for some kind of federation.

Speaker 3 with the Israelis. And I think the whole reasoning behind it, and a lot of our thinking that we together as two nations, we have the younger generation.

Speaker 3 I mean, Palestinians are like, you know, if you look at 70% of Palestinians are under 30. So you have a lot of young people.

Speaker 3 You look at the Israelis, like there's a lot of brilliant technological development and, you know, the startup, all of that.

Speaker 3 So we thought together we could create truly, you know, the city on the hill for the entire Middle East.

Speaker 3 You know, give an example of how we can treat each other with respect, but also how we can move forward through diplomacy, dialogue, coexistence, and not colonization.

Speaker 3 But then you had a force, which is a far-right in Israel, that killed the prime minister of Israel who signed that agreement that incited against any politician who would dare to talk to the Palestinian and treat them as if they're equal human beings, because they continue to call us animals.

Speaker 3 Stacey, one of my first memories as a Palestinian, I had, like you, this beautiful curly hair before I started doing television where they told me that I have to iron my hair.

Speaker 3 But I have this curly hair and I remember I was going to school at age six with my dad.

Speaker 3 And there was an Israeli soldier in front of our neighborhood because every neighborhood in Jerusalem, you have like, you know, a station of Israeli military.

Speaker 3 And I remember that soldier called me a word that I didn't. I didn't understand.
And he said, kushim.

Speaker 3 And he kept repeating kushim. And I saw my father shocked.
And I kept asking,

Speaker 3 What did he say? What is that word? And he said, Don't listen to that, don't worry. But I was so curious.
I went to my school and asked one of my friends. He said, Yeah, he called you monkey.

Speaker 3 And that's the kind of

Speaker 3 reality I grew up in. I grew up in with my dad, who the soldier knew very well, would stop him every time just to humiliate him.
He would take his

Speaker 3 ID, drop it on the floor so he could see my father on his knees. That is our reality, reality, a reality where,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 Jewish Israeli soldiers dominate our life with violence and force and humiliation.

Speaker 3 On multiple occasions, when you go to the airport, the kind of degrading treatment that many women are subjected to, myself included, which is, you know, the cavity search.

Speaker 3 My daughter was subjected to that when she was a teenager and she was horrified and crying. And she told me, this place reeks of hatred.
It reeks of supremacy.

Speaker 3 So, whatever future we have, we need to tackle that supremacist idea that

Speaker 3 you are better than others, that your own safety depends on the mass slaughter and mass starvation of others. That idea needs to be de-radicalized in the Israeli society.

Speaker 3 It can only happen when we have open discussion about what is said every night on Israeli televisions, what is said every day on the Israeli parliament, and why they feel openly happy and entitled to use that kind of language against Palestinians.

Speaker 3 That kind of language, I'm sure, was used in America against African Americans and Latino Americans.

Speaker 3 It took society a lot of years to see that it all starts with words, with dehumanization, with collective criminalization. I honestly don't care whether it's one state or two state.

Speaker 3 All I care about that whatever political solution, because there's only one solution, which is a political one, we reach that solution by convincing the Israelis as well that coexistence is their best hope for a future of safety, security, and integration in a larger word.

Speaker 1 So I want to push you on something you said a second ago about one state or two, because in past interviews, you have pointed out that statehood is the key to lasting security, which I think Netanyahu agrees with, which is why he has consistently opposed Palestinian statehood.

Speaker 1 Now, he's not the first prime minister to do this, but what in your mind differentiates Netanyahu's position from other prime ministers who had similar viewpoints to his?

Speaker 3 Netanyahu

Speaker 3 is a criminal. He has a criminal mindset.
He doesn't believe in any rules and any laws and anything. I mean, he's on trial for corruption in his own country.

Speaker 3 But he has no problem two years ago encompassing, incorporating, and getting in his own government people who are convicted terrorists, like Beng Veer.

Speaker 3 Beng Veer was convicted for terrorism and racism and incitement to violence, convicted by an Israeli court.

Speaker 3 Yet he had no problem getting that guy to be his interior minister, the minister of national security, who is in charge of arming the settlers who attack Palestinians every night.

Speaker 3 Netanyahu is so ruthless.

Speaker 3 He's so ruthless that he preferred to negotiate with Hamas, armed Hamas. He is currently arming ISIS

Speaker 3 in Gaza and the objective of having ISIS there so ISIS can fight Hamas. This is the kind of thinking that got us to October 7 in the first place.

Speaker 3 Two days before October 7, he allowed the Gulani units on the border to be taken from the border to go to protect

Speaker 3 the settlers in occupied West Bank when there is no Hamas. Again, he underestimated Hamas and here we are.

Speaker 3 There's something that disturbed me about Netanyahu profoundly is how he treats his political opponent. When Obama came to office, I remember the kind of disgusting racist rhetoric by

Speaker 3 the Israelis, especially the government of Netanyahu, against Netanyahu.

Speaker 3 And I remember the wife of the Minister of Defense making a joke saying, I like my...

Speaker 3 I like my coffee black and weak like Obama.

Speaker 3 And I always remember

Speaker 3 when Netanyahu was at the White Tower, when he was wagging his finger in Obama's face because Obama wanted to do

Speaker 3 a political diplomatic deal with Iran. So they have, you know, to avoid a war, you have to cut a deal.
You have to compromise. He doesn't believe in compromise.

Speaker 3 But the kind of language and racism, and I thought about it, why did they treat the most powerful man on earth that way? If it's not a demographic threat, then it's an intellectual threat.

Speaker 3 That's why they prefer to talk to Victor Urban or to the fascists in Europe. They hated Obama.
They continue to hate Obama because he was simply black.

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Speaker 1 I want to talk for a second about

Speaker 1 the connection you just drew between Orban and Netanyahu.

Speaker 1 Like so many others, I have been arguing that Netanyahu is following an authoritarian playbook.

Speaker 1 And that, as you've laid out, goes from his attempts to weaken the judiciary to his fomenting of state violence.

Speaker 1 He and his regime have taken very dramatic anti-democratic steps when it comes to the free press. And you know better than many, Israel has prevented Western journalists from entering Gaza.

Speaker 1 222 Palestinian journalists have been killed by the Israeli army. The International Federation of Journalists have recorded no comparable death toll since its formation.

Speaker 1 The death toll is higher than that of the Second World War, Vietnam, Korea, Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

Speaker 1 What have you observed about the impact this has had on global media coverage? Many of the items you just laid out do not make it across to the U.S. We don't know these things.

Speaker 1 And so can you talk briefly about what you've observed and what biases you have seen when it comes to coverage from Western news outlets?

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 Thank you for this question.

Speaker 3 Let me start by saying I wrote a book, the title of the book of Genocide. For me, the first chapter was Propaganda and Genocide.

Speaker 3 For the last seven years, I've been teaching a course at the University of Miami titled Propaganda and Genocide. There's a direct correlation.

Speaker 3 If you visit any Holocaust museum, the first thing you see written on the wall, the Holocaust didn't start with the masking, it started with words,

Speaker 3 with criminalization, demonization, and collective criminalization.

Speaker 3 October 7, after October 7,

Speaker 3 I was very careful about the use of words and try to understand

Speaker 3 how they weaponized fear, the government.

Speaker 3 They start immediately by spinning stories that we know were almost impossible they had happened. The 40 beheaded babies, that story never happened.
Some children were killed, absolutely.

Speaker 3 Mila Cohen, seven months old, with a bullet because there was an exchange of fire, but beheaded babies and baked babies in the oven, that made headlines.

Speaker 3 Then our Israeli colleagues said that never happened. But that story was never retracted.
Nobody apologized

Speaker 3 in the international media, in the American media. That was headline all over the world.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry to say this. Even some politicians said that they know of those beheaded babies.
They saw pictures and then they had say, oh, no, the White House came out and said, no, no, maybe

Speaker 3 we heard about it from the Israelis, but we didn't see any pictures. But I believe that that story paved the way for the mass killing of a lot of Palestinian children.

Speaker 3 22,000 Palestinian children were murdered. When it comes to Israel-Palestine, I think for a long time,

Speaker 3 the Israeli government relied on a lot of our media here, not to ask them rough questions, but exactly to print their statements.

Speaker 3 When they killed 280 Palestinian journalists, 280 in two years, a lot of them photo reporters, a lot of them incredible journalists like Anas Sharif, Ismail Rhul, Maryam Daka, and so many, so many.

Speaker 3 And when we asked the Israeli media,

Speaker 3 the Israeli actually army, can you tell us why were they killed? Said, oh, there was a camera, Hamas camera in a hospital, like in Nasser hospital. I was like, what do you mean, Hamas camera?

Speaker 3 This is Reuters' camera. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 In the media, you could read Hamas' camera. So there's no real

Speaker 3 fact-checking or accountability for telling lies. When Israel told us that some of the journalists were members of, you know, members of Hamas, we asked them when did they become members of Hamas?

Speaker 3 And then they came back saying, well, this and that and that were members of Hamas in 2007 and 2008. This is when they started.
I checked the names.

Speaker 3 Ismail Rul,

Speaker 3 Anas al-Sharif were children when Israel said, claim that they were members of Hamas. They were nine-year-old and 10-year-old.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 the whole preposterous lie, and they continue to lie. And nobody is actually

Speaker 3 brave enough to say Israeli is misleading us on that. The only time they did it when Israeli buried and killed 15 paramedics last March,

Speaker 3 they lied about that. They said, well, they had to kill them because they were scared that the ambulances had Hamas fighters.
They asked them to put the light on. They didn't.

Speaker 3 The light was on and we discovered that because somebody filmed themselves while they were being killed.

Speaker 3 You know, a paramedic, his name is Ahmed, filmed himself and said, this is my last message to my mother. Forgive me.
I want to save lives.

Speaker 3 Today in Israel, the prosecutor of the Israeli army was accused of leaking a video.

Speaker 3 The video she leaked is from Sidadman, which is a torture center in Israel, where Palestinians' detainees were raped with a stick, were tortured, and some of them died. She opened the investigation.

Speaker 3 They pressured her to shut down the investigation. Then to prove that she was investigating a real crime, that she leaked the video.
We have the video. Today, Netanyahu issued an arrest warrant.

Speaker 3 His government issued against her for investigating the rape. of Palestinian detainees.
If this is not torture, I don't know what is. So Israel is committing crimes.

Speaker 3 It's not trying to investigate the crimes, it's actually trying to investigate and arrest the people who are investigating these crimes.

Speaker 1 Are there people in the Israeli government who understand

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 this is

Speaker 1 not just wrong, but that this is a seizure of power that will not stop? And the reason I ask is that in the United States, we have been fixated on Donald Trump because he is the president.

Speaker 1 But my constant warning is that while he may occupy the seat of power now, the intention is that power never leaves.

Speaker 1 And I wonder if you are finding within Israel, as we are trying to foment here in the U.S.,

Speaker 1 competing powers, people who know that this is wrong, who want to do what is right. And what you've described is the authoritarian power of Netanyahu and his regime.

Speaker 1 Who is pushing back within the government? You just described a prosecutor who was willing to lose her job and possibly her freedom.

Speaker 1 Are there others in the Israeli government who are calling this out?

Speaker 1 Because that information is not making its way across to the U.S., but I think it's emblematic, if it exists, of how universal the responsibility to resist is.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I have more hope for America to resist Trump and Trumpism than in Israel.

Speaker 3 Again, the reason why we are,

Speaker 3 I have hope for the United States is freedom of press. The opposition actually call out Trump every time he does something, but also the public opinion is

Speaker 3 clear about their rejection of what Trump is doing. including independent and a lot of Republicans, especially when it comes to the issue of Israel.

Speaker 3 For the first time, there's a clear debate within the MAGA movement.

Speaker 3 Why do we need to to send Israel $30 billion when we're starving at home, when people are literally starving, when children don't have health care?

Speaker 3 So I think there's a real conversation that the country is having about why America needs to bankroll and enable and protect a state that is committing those kind of crimes.

Speaker 3 It's not in America's national security. Whenever I would speak about Israel for the last 15 years of my life in America, I would be shut down.

Speaker 3 You can talk about anything, including the president being a fascist president. But if you say Netanyahu is a fascist, there's a panic, Stacey.

Speaker 3 So even that war on the truth that Netanyahu is waging in Gaza, that's why he's not allowing people to enter Gaza and killing journalists left and right.

Speaker 3 You kill that amount of journalists when your enemy is the truth. This is a war.
on what kind of information and what kind of knowledge and narrative Americans will be allowed to know about Israel.

Speaker 3 And I think the Iron Dome started cracking because of the genocide in Gaza and TikTok and

Speaker 3 the overwhelming information coming out of Gaza. People could not unsee what they've seen.
So they start changing their opinion.

Speaker 1 So Rula, is there no one in Israel who is pushing back?

Speaker 3 Not in the government.

Speaker 3 I would say there was one thing that

Speaker 3 there's human rights organizations, Pit Salem, breaking the silence, others, but they are outside the government. In the government, we know one thing.

Speaker 3 Even the opposition believe in the annexation.

Speaker 3 Opposition leaders talk about Palestinians, you know, sometimes they talk about them in a way where I think the same way probably during Jim Crow, people talked about African Americans, if not worse.

Speaker 3 We saw that they voted for all the bills that Netanyahu wanted, whether annexation, whether, you know,

Speaker 3 the bill to establish an ethno-state where only Jews has special rights and everybody else not. So they voted for that.

Speaker 3 Actually, I was stunned when Netanyahu came to the UN and talked against recognition of the Palestinian state by others, France and Belgium and others.

Speaker 3 The New York Times pinned an article by an Israeli general.

Speaker 3 And the Israeli general, who was, you know, one of the leaders of the opposition, he said, it's not only Netanyahu that believe in those things, all of us in Israel. And he was right.

Speaker 3 The only opposition are those nine or eight members in the parliament who happen to be, you know,

Speaker 3 the far, far left. Let's put it this way.

Speaker 1 So, Rula, you've given us a very damning and

Speaker 1 comprehensive image of what is happening. And I always like to ask our guest, you know, what can we do to help

Speaker 1 i'm not sure there's an answer, but I'm going to ask you the same question.

Speaker 1 What is the most constructive way for people who have been moved by this conversation to support this Palestinian people right now?

Speaker 3 I would say three things.

Speaker 3 And I would put on top of that is

Speaker 3 for me, the most important thing, I think we're reaching a Shinders list moment now. Whoever we can evacuate out of Gaza, who want to leave, we need to help them leave

Speaker 3 because whoever will stay will be be exterminated.

Speaker 3 Israel decided that Palestinians as Palestinians in Gaza should not exist. So, whether it will take them two years, three years, but the decision has been made.

Speaker 3 So, if there's a place to evacuate children, we have 60,000 orphans, students,

Speaker 3 people who would like to study. I mean, Donald Trump now is preventing and Rubia decided not to give visa to children, especially injured children from Gaza or students.

Speaker 3 So I'm happy to be doing this actually with other European countries, in Ireland and in Italy. Spain has their own thing, but if anybody

Speaker 3 has the ability to encourage other countries, I think that would be a good outcome. Second, what we can do here in the United States,

Speaker 3 I think we need to work on the Democratic Party to make them understand that those pro-Israel donors

Speaker 3 who want to dictate the kind of agenda, the kind of platform that Democrats will have and have on Israel.

Speaker 3 And I think this, we need to invite a lot of our allies, progressives, to make them understand that we cannot be viewed as the party that talks about civil rights and human rights and democracy, yet take money from the pro-Israel lobby.

Speaker 3 whose only goal, strategic goal, is to send arms and

Speaker 3 armament to Israel. So I think this is an

Speaker 3 before

Speaker 3 this genocide, people were willing to forgive this or ignore it. I don't think they can now.

Speaker 3 If we want young people to vote in masses, if we want minority to vote in masses, we need to listen to them. We need to be consistent.

Speaker 3 We cannot lecture them about democracy and dignity and human rights and about how Ukraine has the right to defend itself because it's an occupied nation, but then turn around and ignore what's happening in Palestine.

Speaker 3 Third, and this is for me the most important thing:

Speaker 3 we have now documented proof by American officials, many of them who resigned from the State Department and others, that proved that Israel committed war crimes.

Speaker 3 61% of American Jews believe Israel is committing war crimes.

Speaker 3 Yet, our own laws in America, the Leahy law, says any country that violates human rights, use starvation as a weapon of war, or commit war crimes,

Speaker 3 we cannot continue to aid or send military aid to that country. Yet, I think America is violating its own laws in this moment.
And I think this is a topic we can win on.

Speaker 3 Winning on, meaning conditioning military aid to respect of those laws.

Speaker 3 So I think there should be a conversation with the Democratic Party about the kind of messages, but the kind of policy you put in place. I think we need to be...

Speaker 3 to understand that the future, whatever you will do in foreign policy, the issue of of Gaza will come out. This is a Gaza generation.
We had a Vietnam generation, an Iraq generation.

Speaker 3 This is Gaza generation.

Speaker 1 This has been a very sobering, very informative, and incredibly important conversation. Thank you so much for joining me here on Assembly Required.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Thank you, Stacey.

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Speaker 1 Senator Van Hollen, thank you so much for joining me here today on Assembly Required.

Speaker 2 It's absolutely great to be with you. Thanks for all you're doing.

Speaker 1 Well, I want to thank you for what you've been doing. You have been a very clear voice and a very

Speaker 1 important show of courage in a moment that sometimes feels devoid of it. We just spoke with foreign policy analyst Rula DeBril, who broke down what's happening in Gaza, what's happening in Israel.

Speaker 1 And I wanted to start with asking you to talk about the ceasefire plan and the 20-point plan that's been promoted. Will the ceasefire hold?

Speaker 1 And what is your analysis of the proposed long-term plan for Israel and Gaza?

Speaker 2 Well, these are very big questions, of course. And I don't know for sure whether the ceasefire plan will hold.
It's very fragile.

Speaker 2 I'm glad that we finally got a ceasefire, finally got the return of the living hostages, finally began to get more humanitarian assistance into

Speaker 2 people who were starving in Gaza, although we still need a lot more humanitarian aid to go in.

Speaker 2 This was a big step forward, long overdue, should have happened earlier.

Speaker 2 But of course, the next part of the plan may be even harder in some ways, because now we've got to go from a ceasefire, if it can hold, to

Speaker 2 actually the next day, the day after,

Speaker 2 in Gaza, with the ultimate goal of having the Palestinian people being able to govern Gaza as they need to be able to do.

Speaker 2 And in my view, set the foundation for what ultimately would be a two-state solution, connecting Palestinians in Gaza to Palestinians in the West Bank.

Speaker 2 And to get through the 20-point plan and arrive at that destination is going to require sustained and concerted efforts by not just the United States, but many others.

Speaker 1 Well, you and Senator Jeff Merkley visited Gaza's borders borders back in August, and you were near the borders with Egypt and Israel, as well as the West Bank and Jerusalem, and you monitored international aid, how it was getting through, how it was being distributed.

Speaker 1 Can you walk us through not only what you saw on the ground, but what needs to happen next?

Speaker 2 Yes, Stacey, Senator Merkley and I were there at the end of August. This was before the ceasefire, And

Speaker 2 just a little trickle of aid was getting in.

Speaker 2 You know, it had followed a period of many months earlier this year when there had been a complete embargo placed on food and other humanitarian assistance into Gaza by the Netanyahu government, a total cutoff.

Speaker 2 And then they replaced the UN humanitarian system aid delivery with this group called GHF Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. There was nothing humanitarian about it.

Speaker 2 But back then, we went to the Gaza border. That's the border between Egypt and Gaza.
And we were able to walk up a tall building and peer over the border.

Speaker 2 And the city of Rafah had been just reduced to rubble.

Speaker 2 nothing really sustainable at all there. And that, of course, is the challenge with all of Gaza.
I mean, it is totally reduced to rubble in so so many areas.

Speaker 2 The scale of devastation and death is enormous.

Speaker 2 And that is why it's going to require a huge sustained effort to try to begin the rebuilding.

Speaker 2 Over 60,000 Palestinians have been killed, over half of them women and children.

Speaker 2 And schools have been leveled to the ground, homes have been leveled to the ground.

Speaker 2 It's important to remember that at one point, the war aim, the war aim of the Netanyahu government was to push all the Palestinians out of Gaza. That had been their war aim for a while.

Speaker 2 As part of this 20-point plan, at least they have, in word, abandoned that goal. But that will be the big challenge going forward,

Speaker 2 making Gaza a place that people can live and ultimately work and become self-governing under Palestinian governance.

Speaker 1 Senator, one of of the reasons I wanted you on the show today is that you made headlines for stating what other members of Congress have been very reluctant to admit, and that is that the United States has been complicit in the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

Speaker 1 And we just heard from Rula Jabril, who paints a very

Speaker 1 damning picture of the ongoing treatment of Palestinians throughout Israel, but particularly in Gaza. And And I was thinking as she was speaking about my reflexive rejection of that idea.

Speaker 1 I was a state legislator who got invited like so many of us do to visit Israel. The group I traveled with back in 2014 was actually a group that worked very closely with the Palestinians as well.
And

Speaker 1 still, my reflexive rejection of her description

Speaker 1 defies what I know to be true.

Speaker 1 And one of the reasons I wanted you on the show is to talk about why you, from a very strong position of privilege and power, felt compelled to call out what you were saying.

Speaker 2 Well, Stacey, it's because at the end of the day, I do believe that the United States should stand up for principles and values. I mean, we are far, far from perfect.

Speaker 2 But if we're going to have any credibility around the world when it comes to standing up for human rights, for freedom, for democracy, we can't only apply those standards to our adversaries, right?

Speaker 2 It's easy to call out China for their abuse and what they do to the Uyghurs,

Speaker 2 but it's harder when we have to call out longtime partners and friendly countries, in this case, Israel under the Netanyahu

Speaker 2 government. I was very clear that after the heinous Hamas attacks on October 7th, that Israel had a right, in fact, a duty, to defend itself.

Speaker 2 But it became quite clear early on that the goal of the Netanyahu government was not just to target Hamas, but to impose collective punishment on the Palestinian people in Gaza.

Speaker 2 They're very clear about these war aims that they had. Netanyahu said, we have to, you know, destroy these homes, so nobody will have any place to return to.

Speaker 2 Members of the cabinet like Smotrich and Ben Gavir, who have very significant influential positions, have essentially

Speaker 2 called for the removal of all Palestinians from Gaza, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Gaza.

Speaker 2 And if you look at the ongoing Israeli occupation on the West Bank, where you see this big increase in settler violence trying to push Palestinians off the land, that's an example of ethnic cleansing in slow motion.

Speaker 2 And so it's going to be really important that the United States take a stand. Unfortunately, we have been complicit in what has happened there.

Speaker 2 We've been providing since the very beginning of the war billions and billions of dollars of offensive weapons and never even paused those weapons when the Netanyahu government had cut off all humanitarian and food assistance to Palestinians in Gaza.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 the United States

Speaker 2 shares responsibility

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 2 what has been a policy of ethnic cleansing by the Netanyahu government in Gaza.

Speaker 2 And I think all of us who believe that our country should fight for the values we say we believe in, freedom and human rights, we need to step up at this moment because we're not going to achieve any long-term stability or peace in the Middle East between Israelis and Palestinians until both Israelis and Palestinians can have their security assured, but also their human rights and dignity and freedom assured.

Speaker 2 And that is the big challenge right now as we try to rebuild in Gaza.

Speaker 1 Do you think that there is movement within the

Speaker 1 left and Congress towards the position that you hold? Because right now there has been, I mean, you are very clear voice, there have been a handful of very clear voices, but we have not seen a shift.

Speaker 1 Do you think that's coming? And do you think there's a role for the public to play in promoting exactly what you've described, which is making certain that we live our values?

Speaker 2 Well, let me start with the second part. I definitely think there's a role for the public to play.
In fact, I think the public is way ahead of the Congress on this.

Speaker 2 And when I say public, I mean people of all faiths across the United States,

Speaker 2 including the Jewish community and especially younger members of the Jewish community who've been a very important part of the movement on college campuses, raising concerns about the Netanyahu government's actions in Gaza and on the West Bank.

Speaker 2 And so this is an area where the American people, I think, are way ahead of the Congress. The Congress is a bubble.
Congress, unfortunately, for a very long time

Speaker 2 has been sort of captive to certain

Speaker 2 particular

Speaker 2 elements of the lobby. This is the AIPAC wing of the lobby.
There are other very important organizations that stand up.

Speaker 2 uh for human rights and two-state solution in in israel like j street and others uh but But APAC has been sort of the big lobby.

Speaker 2 I mean, for many years when people were doing rankings of the most powerful lobbies in Congress, APAC was always in the top three to five.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 right now, if you're asking me if the public has an important role, the answer is absolutely yes. And Congress has really been

Speaker 2 very slow to stand up for what we say we believe in when I say we, the American American people, when it comes to a foreign policy based on human rights, freedom, and dignity for everybody.

Speaker 1 You know, we've seen this rise of right-wing leadership globally, and there's been a particular strain of authoritarianism that we saw in Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, that we see in Victor Orban in Hungary.

Speaker 1 And, you know, Netanyahu is no exception.

Speaker 1 And just last week, a foremost expert on backsliding democracies found that Israel had slid into competitive authoritarianism, much like the United States.

Speaker 1 Can you describe the authoritarian tactics that you are seeing leveraged by Israeli leadership?

Speaker 1 And if you feel comfortable comparing it to similarities that we are seeing here in the U.S., I've been spending a lot of time on the show talking about authoritarianism, how we recognize it, because we can't combat it if we don't understand it.

Speaker 1 And one of the reasons for today's show is to demonstrate that this is not just an American problem. This is an international challenge.

Speaker 2 Well, I think you're absolutely right, Stacey. That is a through line in

Speaker 2 the United States, Israel, and other countries around the world under the current governments.

Speaker 2 And remember that, you know, long before the

Speaker 2 Hamas attacks of October 7th, the Netanyahu government was trying to dismantle the independence of the judiciary in Israel. This was a big fight.

Speaker 2 I mean, there were thousands of people in Israel taking to the streets to protest what the Netanyahu government was doing. They had to step back a little bit, but then they also made gains.

Speaker 2 And of course, here in the United States, you have Donald Trump, you know, trying to launch a full-blown assault on the independence of the courts and weaponizing the Department of Justice,

Speaker 2 not to ensure equal protection of the law, but specifically, you know, to go after disfavored groups and people.

Speaker 2 You also see in Israel this effort to crack down on elements of the free press.

Speaker 2 Recently, the newspaper, the independent newspaper in Israel, Haaretz, that has done a good job of exposing the actions of the Netanyahu government in Gaza as well as the West Bank,

Speaker 2 has come under a lot of fire. I mean, there are folks who are associated with the Netanyahu government

Speaker 2 who are trying to literally literally

Speaker 2 shut down parts of it,

Speaker 2 push it to the side.

Speaker 2 One

Speaker 2 very sort of well-known

Speaker 2 speaker close to Netanyahu there said that

Speaker 2 Haretz was being treasonous.

Speaker 2 Right now in Israel, there's been exposed the fact that some of the Palestinian prisoners had been raped. There was video released.

Speaker 2 And instead of sort of taking a step back and saying, this is outrageous, what happened to this prisoner, that

Speaker 2 this was torture, instead, all the focus in Israel is on going after the very senior military officer

Speaker 2 who leaked it. So there are definitely these efforts to crack down on free speech, on independent media.

Speaker 2 And I'll just say, Stacey, the biggest example in many ways is Netanyahu has refused to allow international press into Gaza, even to this day.

Speaker 2 Obviously, international press are, people

Speaker 2 are grown-ups. They can make their own decisions about what risks they should take.
But the fact that the Netanyahu government continues to deny any press,

Speaker 2 except for those that are escorted specifically by the IDF and shown exactly what the IDF wants them to see, is a sign that they clearly don't want the world to know

Speaker 2 what happened. happened.
We know some of what happened because of the videos that we were able to see, but international press remains blocked.

Speaker 2 And so I do see this as an ongoing effort from the Netanyahu government to the Trump administration to crack down on independent, an independent judiciary and freedom of the speech

Speaker 2 and other important freedoms.

Speaker 1 Senator, one of the critiques that we keep hearing is there's nothing that can be done.

Speaker 1 But I know you have and your colleagues have done your best to access rules that sometimes are either overlooked or simply misunderstood.

Speaker 1 Can you talk about the Leahy Law and walk us through it and talk about how it could apply to Israel as a way of the U.S. really starting to take action?

Speaker 2 Yes, the Leahy Laws, named after former Senator Pat Leahy from Vermont, essentially say that the United States should not be providing, selling, financing military equipment to any unit of any foreign military that is engaged in gross violations of human rights.

Speaker 2 That is the standard. Now, when it comes to the application of the Leahy laws, Israel has always been given sort of a

Speaker 2 special treatment, meaning they're not subjected to the same

Speaker 2 process of review that other countries are. For other countries, it's a much easier process for determining Leahy law violations.

Speaker 2 They don't all have to flow up through the Secretary of State, for example. But Israel has sort of special dispensation.

Speaker 2 Even despite that,

Speaker 2 And there was just recently a Washington Post story that revealed this.

Speaker 2 Within the State Department, there have been findings of about over 500 instances where the Leahy law was violated by Israel in Gaza.

Speaker 2 And one of the great frustrations that many of us have had is that despite those findings within agencies at the State Department, both during the Biden administration

Speaker 2 and now I'm sure within the Trump administration,

Speaker 2 those efforts to expose that wrongdoing have essentially been squashed.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 this is a real issue. I'm glad you raised the issue of the Leahy laws because this is the law of the land.
We're supposed to be applying this equally to recipients of U.S.

Speaker 2 military assistance around the world.

Speaker 2 But Israel has been given very special treatment when it comes to the Leahy law. In the last administration, there were a couple findings of violations that did go to the Secretary of State.

Speaker 2 And as the administration wound down, they were simply ignored and sent sort of back into the bowels of the State Department.

Speaker 2 And it's just one example of American laws not being applied to the actions of the Netanyahu government and Israel.

Speaker 2 Because another law that's been on the books is something called the Humanitarian Aid Corridors Act that says that any country receiving U.S.

Speaker 2 military assistance has to make sure that they allow the United States to provide humanitarian aid and other relief into war zones where that U.S. military equipment is being used.

Speaker 2 Clearly, Gaza applied. It was a case in point, and yet neither the Biden administration nor the Trump administration have applied that law.

Speaker 1 I'm going to ask you to

Speaker 1 become a predictor of the future.

Speaker 1 We know that Israel is foundationally a religious ethno-state. It was intentionally designed that way.

Speaker 1 And the conversation about a two-state solution has to presuppose equality for Palestinians, but it also has to understand how we treat and how Israel treats Israeli Arabs.

Speaker 1 What does an effective two-state solution look like? Have we ever seen the parameters? And if it does exist, how do we make it so?

Speaker 2 Well, this has, of course, been the goal of so many of us for such a long time. And

Speaker 2 even as the United States has held up the idea of a two-state solution with self-determination for both Palestinians and Israelis, it's been made so much more difficult by the fact that Israel has continued to expand its illegal settlements on the West Bank.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I believe that in an Israel that's a homeland for for the Jewish people, but also one where everybody who lives in Israel has equal rights. I mean, equal justice under the law should apply.

Speaker 2 And if you create a Palestinian state next door

Speaker 2 and make sure all the security guarantees are in place for Israelis, of course, and also for Palestinians, it will be important that they also

Speaker 2 have a system where they apply equal rights to everybody living in a Palestinian state, whether they be Palestinians or whether they be Jews.

Speaker 2 And so that is the vision of a two-state solution. But it's one thing to have that idea.
It's another thing to get there given all the headwinds

Speaker 2 that we've faced, because it's gotten to the point where

Speaker 2 it's been used to postpone some of the harder questions about

Speaker 2 rights, about freedom, because ultimately what we need to do is end the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and do so in a way that assures and guarantees security for Israel as well as for Palestinians.

Speaker 2 And if we can accomplish that, Israel's security will be further strengthened by bringing other Arab states in the region that have not yet recognized Israel, like Saudi Arabia, into the fold, into a broader security agreement.

Speaker 2 That is the vision.

Speaker 1 So what can Americans do to help you make that so?

Speaker 2 Well, Americans need to be very clear about what our purpose is and our principles. And if we're going to get from where we are today to

Speaker 2 a world where there's self-determination for Israelis and as well as for Palestinians, it will require the United States to use much more levers of its influence to end the Israeli occupation of the West Bank.

Speaker 2 Because even setting aside Gaza, what we're witnessing on the West Bank is this acceleration of settler violence, pushing people off their lands.

Speaker 2 When Senator Merkley and I were there, it was not that long after a number of Palestinians on the West Bank had been killed by Israeli settlers,

Speaker 2 where one of the Christian villages on the West Bank, Palestinian Christian villages of Taipei,

Speaker 2 had been attacked and had been subject to all sorts of vandalism, attempts to set fire around a church.

Speaker 2 So ultimately, the United States needs to decide: are we going to be serious about calling for self-determination and security? Yes, for the Israeli people in Israel, but also it has to be yes for

Speaker 2 Palestinians.

Speaker 2 Otherwise, we're going to be in the middle of this conflict forever and ever and ever.

Speaker 2 While we want to make sure, in my view, that we have a secure homeland for the Jewish people in a state of Israel, we also need to deal with the other consequences of making that happen.

Speaker 2 And that is the injustices that have been visited upon the Palestinian people. And until we get to that core issue, Stacey,

Speaker 2 we're not going to have peace and long-term stability in the region.

Speaker 1 Senator Chris Van Holland, thank you so much for your leadership, for your clarity, and for joining us here today. I appreciate you.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Back at you.

Speaker 1 As always on Assembly Required, we're here to give you real, actionable tools to face today's biggest challenges. First, be curious.
Learn more about the history of Israel and Palestine.

Speaker 1 Pick up a copy of Rashid Khalidi's 100 Years' War on Palestine to gain a better understanding of the region and how we arrived at the current tragedy. Number two, solve problems.

Speaker 1 Authoritarianism and the abuses that sustain it are wrong, regardless of the perpetrator. So, call your members of Congress and ask them to enforce the Leahy Law.

Speaker 1 Also, check out the organization Tech for Palestine, an incubator for advocacy projects in support of Palestinian liberation, and donate and get involved. Third, do good.

Speaker 1 More than half a million people in Gaza are trapped in famine, facing widespread starvation, destitution, and preventable deaths.

Speaker 1 Over 1 million more are experiencing emergency levels of food insecurity.

Speaker 1 Organizations like the World Food Program are scaling up operations and aim to feed up to 1.6 million people over the next three months. If you can, please donate.

Speaker 1 Doctors Without Borders, the Palestinian Children's Relief Fund, and the World Central Kitchen are also great places to give.

Speaker 1 Look, this is a tough conversation. One that entangles religion, politics, ethnicity, and discrimination.
But at its core, this is a show about how we do what's right, even when it's hard.

Speaker 1 Genocide is wrong. Permanent refugee camps are wrong.
And under Netanyahu, what's happening in today's Israel is wrong. And if you agree, take action.

Speaker 1 As always, if you like what you hear, be sure to share this episode and subscribe on all of your favorite platforms. And to meet the demands of the algorithm, please rate the show and leave a comment.

Speaker 1 You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, Apple, or wherever you go to listen and learn.

Speaker 1 Please also check out my sub stack, Assembly Notes, for more information about what we discussed on the podcast and other tools to help us protect our democracy.

Speaker 1 And thank you to the thousands of you who have signed up for the 10 Steps Campaign at 10stepsCampaign.org.

Speaker 1 We've recently updated the site to add more resources, a glossary, and a Spanish language version.

Speaker 1 We have a toolkit coming online shortly, and we're constantly adding new organizations and and examples of how to get involved.

Speaker 1 I'd love to hear more about what you're doing to process the current regime and what tools or resources would be helpful. And please practice step two and share the site with your friends and family.

Speaker 1 If you have a report, a question, or a comment for me, send it in. You can start with an email to assemblyrequired at crooked.com or leave us a voicemail.

Speaker 1 and you and your questions and comments might be featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509.

Speaker 1 Well, this wraps up the episode. Well, that wraps up this episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams.
Be careful out there, and I'll meet you here next week.

Speaker 1 Assembly Required is a crooked media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farah Safari.
Kirill Polaviev is our video producer.

Speaker 1 This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Photopoulos.

Speaker 1 Thank you to Matt DeGroote, Kyle Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Heathcote, and Priyanka Muntha for production support. Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abrams.

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