S4: E8 — Solace

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Speaker 1 Hey guys, before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're looking for new stories of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series, which returns in August.

Speaker 1 If you've experienced Betrayal and feel ready to share your story, now is a great time to reach out. Email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
That's betrayalpod

Speaker 1 at gmail.com.

Speaker 16 It is not to your detriment that you have loved and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person.

Speaker 16 You unfortunately just got an unhealthy, really sick person who was so invested in keeping you out of his whole double life that he was living

Speaker 16 and used every tactic in the world to keep you blind to that.

Speaker 1 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Season 4, Episode 8,

Speaker 16 Solace.

Speaker 1 Caroline Berega has been dealing with the fallout of her husband's betrayal for more than three years.

Speaker 1 When you've been married for half your life, the recovery is long, unpredictable.

Speaker 1 At the beginning, it's just about getting through the next hour, the next 24 hours, being able to get yourself to work or show up for your kids.

Speaker 1 Now Caroline is reaching the point where she can start to truly process and heal from that experience. We connected Caroline with Kristen Snowden, an expert in betrayal trauma and infidelity.

Speaker 1 She's a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of California and a certified life coach.

Speaker 16 My specialty is helping couples and individuals navigate relationship crises that have been brought upon by uncovering an unknown addiction or infidelity.

Speaker 16 And that's either chemical addictions or processed addictions such as sex, porn, love addiction.

Speaker 1 Addiction is a loaded term and one we want to use carefully. Most of us know someone who struggled with a chemical addiction, like one to alcohol or opioids.
Process addictions are different.

Speaker 1 They involve compulsive behaviors that activate the brain's reward system. The DSM-5, the official manual clinicians use to diagnose mental health disorders, only recognizes one process addiction.

Speaker 1 That's gambling disorder. Others, like sex addiction, remain controversial and are not officially classified as mental health diagnoses.

Speaker 1 This is not to say the experience of sex addiction isn't real and valid, but without a diagnostic criteria, the label can be misunderstood, misused, or even abused.

Speaker 1 Joel began using the word addiction to describe his behavior, but only after he was caught.

Speaker 17 You'll remember the text he sent Caroline from rehab: low self-esteem, self-esteem, self-hatred, depression, anxiety, addiction all contributed to my behavior and actions.

Speaker 17 Sane people would not do what I did, but I literally was not in my right mind.

Speaker 1 We don't know if Joel has been diagnosed with any addictions to substances, but because Joel referred to himself as an addict, you'll hear Kristen and Caroline use that term in this conversation.

Speaker 1 They're also using it as a shorthand for his compulsive and destructive behavior.

Speaker 1 Kristen started one of the first dual diagnosis treatment programs for people with both chemical addictions and sexual acting out behaviors.

Speaker 1 But in the last 10 years, her focus has shifted to helping betrayed partners.

Speaker 1 She runs groups for those that have been betrayed, and she has a YouTube channel where she shares free resources for those navigating relationship crises.

Speaker 16 I want betrayed partners to have that specialty training and education that they deserve that I think is going to help launch them into the ability to heal from these traumas.

Speaker 1 When Kristen first meets with new clients, she often begins with this metaphor.

Speaker 16 Something that we do all day, every day is we drive. And what we do is we're essentially taking for granted that everybody else around us is going to follow the rules of the road.

Speaker 16 And that is what we're doing when we're in these long-term relationships with our partners.

Speaker 16 We have very direct spoken rules, but also unspoken rules that we're gonna give each other the benefit of the doubt. We're gonna do our best to do no harm.

Speaker 16 We're gonna follow the rules and move along in the correct way together.

Speaker 16 And then all of a sudden, when you uncover that your partner is capable of lying, sneaking around, It is as if someone is asking you every day to just go do the basic things like just go drive to the grocery store, just go drop your kids off.

Speaker 16 But oh, by the way, no one's going to follow the rules of the road. Hope you make it there, okay.

Speaker 16 Suddenly, the drive, the simple drive that you took for granted every single day

Speaker 16 becomes the most terrifying, hyper-vigilant, soul-sucking experience because you don't know what's coming at you.

Speaker 16 And that is like the best metaphor I have to help people understand what these betrayed partners are going through from the minute they find out what their partner's done and onward.

Speaker 1 Kristen often works with people like Caroline, people who've been left to pick up the pieces in the wake of their partner's betrayal.

Speaker 16 She's my quintessential client. Unfortunately, I've seen hundreds of her, if not thousands.

Speaker 1 Kristen met with Caroline several times over the course of this season. With their permission, we'd like to share excerpts from those sessions with you.

Speaker 1 Caroline started with a problem she confronts often in her life, feeling on edge in the city she calls home. All she sees are places where Joel arranged his meetups.

Speaker 1 These are landmarks that memorialize her husband's affairs.

Speaker 18 There's really only one way to drive to our local airport, and I hate the drive. I hate it.
All I can do is think about, this is where he did this at. This is where he did this at.

Speaker 18 How many people did he meet in this area? How many times did this occur? Like it is just repetitive in me.

Speaker 16 How do you feel in your body when you're driving to the airport and you're crossing all those triggering places and spaces? What does it feel like?

Speaker 18 It could be the coldest morning in Colorado

Speaker 18 and I will start sweating when I reach that area of town. I will have my

Speaker 18 heat completely turned off. I'll need to crack the window and the nausea starts and my brain just starts churning.

Speaker 18 This is the area where he did this. How many times did he meet someone?

Speaker 18 It will just continuously churn, and I'll keep playing it and replaying it and replaying it even after I park, when I'm bringing my luggage up, when I'm checking in. It just continuously plays in me.

Speaker 18 The piece of it that is so aggravating is that

Speaker 18 I have no control over it.

Speaker 18 I'm still reliving it every time I drive that route.

Speaker 18 I think that I am a strong female, but I will tell you that if you want to test someone's ability to stay strong, go through this and have to live it every day.

Speaker 16 Right. That's why I always think it's interesting, but there's really no such thing in the diagnostic manuals that categorizes betrayal as a form of trauma.

Speaker 16 DTSD doesn't really fall in that because, you know, it has to be a life-threatening event.

Speaker 16 And people don't consider these things to be life-threatening. But I mean, I could imagine you feel like you have PTSD symptoms.

Speaker 18 I know I do. And I think it's evidenced by the fact that my kids and I say, unless it was an absolute life-threatening event, we will never call law enforcement.

Speaker 16 I'm sorry.

Speaker 16 It's like a systemic betrayal, similar to people who've been betrayed to by the like religious organizations, like abused by the people in charge and then shunned and ignored and never validated or supported by their community.

Speaker 18 You know, I pride myself in being someone who can compartmentalize and keep myself together, but it is a struggle to keep every emotion in and keep my shoulders back and my head high, constantly running into his colleagues.

Speaker 16 What's the story you're telling yourself about what they are experiencing when they see you?

Speaker 18 When life blew up, initially to me and my kids, Joel said it was my fault. It was my fault because we weren't having sex as much as he wanted to.
I wasn't doing things that he wanted to sexually.

Speaker 18 Like he pointed the finger at me.

Speaker 18 And this is also the narrative that he started telling all of his employment.

Speaker 18 They're thinking to themselves, we know what Joel did. We've been told that you're the reason why this happened.
He had to go seek sex sex elsewhere because he wasn't getting it at home.

Speaker 18 He needed to go find it around the community. This is all your fault.
You caused him to lose his job. In one of his disciplinary write-ups, it actually says

Speaker 18 Joel discussed that he was having problems with his wife at home.

Speaker 18 It's like everyone heard this narrative but me.

Speaker 18 I didn't know this. In my world, we were living this really blessed, utopian life.

Speaker 18 I didn't know that this was being put on blast about me. Yeah.

Speaker 16 What is that like on top of the shame that you just generally experience from being betrayed by your intimate partner and finding out that he's led this whole doable life?

Speaker 16 What is that like to have this community

Speaker 16 where they're blaming you or using your apparent marital life to justify his behavior?

Speaker 18 It just continued to involve this constant nausea and chaos in my life.

Speaker 18 And to have to have this pretend face and this very low affect to not show emotion was miserable.

Speaker 18 And it definitely doesn't feel sustainable to continue to try to have this pretend normal at work.

Speaker 18 It doesn't feel good to have this pretend normal at community events where I see police officers who stare at me and my kids when we're together.

Speaker 18 My daughter was in a car accident her junior year shortly after he blew up our lives. About a month and a week later, she was T-boned and hit by a driver.

Speaker 18 And when I went out to the scene to see her, thank God she was okay.

Speaker 18 But even in that moment,

Speaker 18 Cops were pulling up to the scene

Speaker 18 and I could hear them. They didn't even care that we were there, what we had just gone through.
I could hear them. Oh my God, there's Kern's wife and his kid.
Oh my God, can you believe that?

Speaker 18 He's in rehab right now. I could hear them.

Speaker 16 And like your moment of raw vulnerability.

Speaker 18 Yes, I am terrified for my daughter. I am terrified seeing how she looks.
She's just an absolute shock. Even in that moment, it's thrown in my face.

Speaker 16 It must be overwhelming, especially when part of your trauma has been being lied to.

Speaker 16 I can imagine it being just even more frustrating, to say the least, that you continue to be surrounded by a community that keeps telling you that you're to blame.

Speaker 16 There's such a healing and release of trauma that happens when a community can share in validating that what happened was not okay and that was scary and that rocked our world.

Speaker 16 And I just, I'm so sad that you've been denied.

Speaker 16 I'm hearing that you live in a community

Speaker 16 where there's just a lack of empathy for what you and the kids have gone through.

Speaker 18 I think it's not only a lack of empathy, I think it is the belief of a false narrative.

Speaker 16 What do you tell yourself about why they can kind of be so non-empathetic, why they're so invested in holding on to Joel's story?

Speaker 18 Hear me out because I'm going to sound very self-loathing while I say this.

Speaker 18 I did it.

Speaker 18 I believe Joel.

Speaker 18 I mean, I initially carried this guilt when he looked at me and he said, well, we weren't having sex enough. You were paying more attention to the kids than you did to me.

Speaker 18 I didn't feel like you loved me.

Speaker 18 And in the moments of it, I doubted myself. I thought, oh my God, were we having sex enough? Did I show you that I loved you? Did I pay more attention to the kids than you?

Speaker 18 I mean, He got in my head when he was excusing his behaviors until I know the extent of what he did.

Speaker 18 When it became reality, I was able to let go some of that guilt and that burden. But this was someone who was extremely well liked within the department.

Speaker 18 You know, he was friendly and got along with people and he supported his officers and all of these things.

Speaker 18 My husband lived a double life.

Speaker 18 And in my gut, I believe that He is an extremely intelligent man. And I do think that he knew as things were progressing, he was about ready to be caught.

Speaker 18 And he needed to start shifting the blame or provide excuses. And people believe him.

Speaker 16 When betrayal happens in a relationship, in a marriage, the vulnerability of the fact that that can happen to anybody, that you can be blindsided by someone you trust and love and they can hurt you the most, I think that hits too close to home for most people.

Speaker 16 So they have to package it up in a way that makes you different than them.

Speaker 16 You know, it's scary to think that my partner can just go out, have a bunch of sex with somebody else, lie, sneak around, keep doing it.

Speaker 16 If I really sat with the vulnerability of that, it would just lock me up. Like the powerlessness of that is just too scary.

Speaker 16 As a defense mechanism, I have to make your story different so I can go back and carry on in my life.

Speaker 16 So the story has to be, be, Caroline didn't give him enough sex. Well, I give my partner enough sex.
And that just others her in a way where it allows me to just not feel the vulnerability.

Speaker 16 Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Speaker 18 It makes sense.

Speaker 18 Like a lot of sense.

Speaker 16 It's just in this realm of infidelities

Speaker 16 where there seems to be this really strong focus on the betrayed partner.

Speaker 16 No one blames the wife or the spouse or a partner for someone's heroin addiction or for someone's gambling addiction.

Speaker 16 There's just something about the fact that in people's brains, they want to make it a relational problem when it is not a relational problem.

Speaker 16 What I always say is it's like this additional trauma and abuse that happens that will, as you're saying, shut a betrayed partner down, stop them from wanting to share their story, cause them to feel even more isolated after they've already been betrayed by the person they've made themselves most exposed to.

Speaker 16 Why are we talking about, like, well, did you have sex with them enough? Were you nagging?

Speaker 16 I mean, it does nothing but harm.

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Speaker 1 Caroline is talking to Kristen Snowden, a licensed therapist and life coach who specializes in betrayal trauma.

Speaker 18 The other night,

Speaker 18 I was at a very popular brewery, and I walk in and I'm standing in line and I hear Caroline and I turn and I look and it's one of Joel's best friends.

Speaker 18 When Joel got in trouble, he turned to this person and he goes over, opens his arm, gives me a hug. I did like one of these where I just kept my arms straight down.

Speaker 18 You know, like, I don't want you to physically touch me.

Speaker 16 Like you had a physiological response to to him. Yes.

Speaker 18 We don't need to have physical contact. I do not want to hug you.
We are not friends. I know what you have said about me.
You know, I just kept my arms straight down, very stiff.

Speaker 18 And he was like, how are you? And I just stopped him and I said, you know what? I know all of the horrible things you have said about me and the blame you have placed on me.

Speaker 18 There's no need for us to talk.

Speaker 18 And he looked at me and he kind of got this smirk and he said, okay.

Speaker 18 But for the first time in a long time, it felt empowering to not take it, to not engage in it.

Speaker 16 What do you think the difference was?

Speaker 16 Why now?

Speaker 18 I think the difference at this point is that I know I'm not alone. For a long time, I felt like this could never happen to anyone else.
And this almost shame and guilt and the

Speaker 18 personification of Joel's actions onto me and my my kids just filled me with embarrassment.

Speaker 18 You know, that was one of the things that drew me in with the podcast is hearing, oh my God, like this happened to someone else.

Speaker 18 Since everything happened, I feel like in my past life, I was this pretty confident person.

Speaker 18 But since my ex-husband's secret life had been revealed to me,

Speaker 18 I mean, it just really put a weight of constant insecurity on me, just constant. And it's been a really long time since I have been able to keep my head up, like a really long time.

Speaker 16 It's common for us to feel less confident and standing in our own reality when we're surrounded by people who are questioning our reality.

Speaker 16 There was so many elements where you were saying, look, this is, you're in a different location. Where are you? No, you're crazy.
No, I don't know. What's wrong with you?

Speaker 16 So you're in a constant environment with him where he was questioning your reality.

Speaker 16 And then after he left, you were living in this world where everyone was kind of validating his narrative

Speaker 16 and not extending grace and empathy towards you in a very, very painful way. So I could completely understand why you've struggled so much to stand in your confidence.

Speaker 16 It's so traumatizing to have someone dismantle your instincts and intuition and question your reality, question your sanity. It is a huge casualty of betrayal.

Speaker 18 Yes, spot on.

Speaker 16 I always say like you've been traumatized and now you're responsible for trying your best to mitigate those unfortunate circumstances, right? That you now have a traumatized body.

Speaker 16 You're going to have trauma triggers, trauma responses. It gets really confusing.
Like, is this a red flag or is this like a trauma response, a trauma trigger that's coming up for me?

Speaker 16 And so it's, it's just really important to have a couple people in your community where you can bounce this off of and validate, am I crazy?

Speaker 16 Because it's just the most benign things you find yourself questioning.

Speaker 16 That is one of the healing pathways after being betrayed.

Speaker 16 You can't do it on your own.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 16 And so it's this counterintuitive thing, right?

Speaker 16 People come to me because their lives have been devastated devastated and turned upside down because they have opened their heart and their life to a person

Speaker 16 and they have just been lied to and their whole lives destroyed, their families destroyed because of it. And one of my treatment processes is to say, well, and now you need to go to a group.

Speaker 16 And most understandably so, they'd say, hell no.

Speaker 16 Like, I've exposed myself enough.

Speaker 1 I'm popping in here for just a second. Caroline, like many people people who've been betrayed, was initially resistant to group workshops, but eventually she decided to give them a shot.

Speaker 1 And she joined a group Kristen runs for betrayed partners.

Speaker 18 One of the big pieces of why I fell in that category was because

Speaker 18 it's hard to believe

Speaker 18 there are

Speaker 18 evil humans out there that would do the same thing to other innocent people.

Speaker 18 And

Speaker 18 then being being in that group, hearing, oh my God, this happened to all of you. Yeah.

Speaker 18 And replace my name with your name. And our stories are almost parallel to each other.
I mean, we walked a very similar path.

Speaker 18 You feel so alone, though, at the beginning when it happens.

Speaker 18 Like this could not happen to anyone else, especially when you're surrounded with friends and family members who assumedly are living these very healthy marriages and healthy relationships.

Speaker 18 And like you're just on this little island by yourself that no one else would really understand.

Speaker 16 Yeah. And what has it been like to be in a group where you're around several women who are betrayed partners of sex addicts? And I mean, what's that been like to hear all those stories?

Speaker 18 There's been, I mean, a great sense of camaraderie, definitely, some validation.

Speaker 16 And I always think it's very interesting.

Speaker 16 One of the myths about betrayal trauma is: we think that this, the person that got betrayed, the person that got bamboozled and lied to, is this passive person that just kind of gets fooled.

Speaker 16 But so often, I run into betrayed partners, and in every other facet of their life, they're extremely clear about what they want, what they need.

Speaker 16 And it just shows the manipulation power that their addict partners use.

Speaker 18 100% accurate.

Speaker 16 You've seen in these groups, these phenomenal women who are just so smart, have these careers, had these lives, had these great children, and then just got sideswiped and blindsided by their partner's behavior that they had no idea.

Speaker 16 And these betrayed partners often are so busy, in fact, living their lives.

Speaker 16 trying to be the best parents they can be, be the best partners that they can be, and don't even realize that people can lie and deceive and commit illegal acts.

Speaker 16 All of those are so far off their radar.

Speaker 16 That is why they are kind of victimized over such a long period of time. That is why they are often so primed to let their partners' lies kind of trump their own instincts and intuition.

Speaker 18 Yes, yes.

Speaker 16 And I'm just going to say it. You're a beautiful woman.
You're well spoken. You're educated.
You have this career. You have these kids.
and it just starts ticking stories off of people's lists.

Speaker 16 Like they can't write the story that you were unattractive or you were crazy or you were money hungry. I mean, because you're just, you're none of those things.

Speaker 16 You're a high-functioning, attractive, loving, stable human being that happened to marry an unhealthy person.

Speaker 16 And you are still suffering the consequences.

Speaker 18 Thank you for saying that.

Speaker 18 That makes me like, thank you.

Speaker 18 Thank you.

Speaker 16 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 16 It is not to your detriment that you have loved and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person.

Speaker 16 You unfortunately just got

Speaker 16 the person.

Speaker 16 who was so invested in keeping you out of his whole double life that he was living

Speaker 16 and used every tactic in the world to keep you blind to that.

Speaker 18 I heard from multiple family members and then some of his subsequent online paramours, he actually used me filing the divorce as a tool to garner sympathy.

Speaker 18 His comment to people was, I was sick and Caroline wouldn't work with me. You know, Caroline wouldn't stay with me and see me through getting the therapy I needed.

Speaker 18 You know, she just wanted to run right away. That was one of the things that he had told people.

Speaker 18 And it had been used against me of, well, if you really loved him, you would have stuck it out with him.

Speaker 16 Well, and better yet, someone in recovery who's really reckoned with the fact that there are consequences to every action is understanding that, like,

Speaker 16 these are the typical consequences that come with that behavior.

Speaker 16 I made bad choices and I lied and I snuck around and I broke my vows and I exposed my family to a lot of uncertainty and unsafety. And it's heartbreaking and horrible.
And I wish that wasn't the case.

Speaker 16 I wish I'd changed sooner. I mean, those are words of someone who's moving through recovery.

Speaker 16 His words are more reflective of somebody who's just always constantly building that wall of entitlement. I work so hard.
I'm entitled to go do this. She's always nagging me.

Speaker 16 I'm entitled to go do this. I didn't get that promotion.
I'm entitled to go do this. It's my birthday.
I'm entitled to go do this. I had childhood trauma.
I'm entitled to go do this.

Speaker 16 Those are dangerous, dangerous people. That is not a sign of someone who is, as we say in the 12-step world, who's humbled and surrendered.

Speaker 16 It is a sign of someone who is always setting up justification, rationale, and entitlement to go out and do what they want to do because I get to.

Speaker 16 They are not thinking about the family system. They are not thinking about their values and goals.
They're not, definitely not thinking about the true consequences to their behaviors.

Speaker 16 And those were all things required for someone to live in recovery.

Speaker 18 It was funny because you actually said this to me last week. I had this moment of like a mind fuck of like,

Speaker 18 did I give it up my all? Should I have stayed in?

Speaker 18 You know, I made a vow to stay with him in sickness and in health.

Speaker 1 As a reminder, Caroline made the decision to leave the marriage after she got a call from a case manager at Joel's rehab facility.

Speaker 1 The case manager told Caroline that Joel was one of the worst cases of sex addiction she'd ever seen. He wasn't taking the treatment seriously.

Speaker 1 And when Caroline realized he wasn't doing the work, she decided their marriage was irreparable.

Speaker 18 And that's why I tried to separate our lives as quick as I could.

Speaker 1 Caroline reflected back on this moment after hearing the stories of other women in Kristen's group, some some of whom were trying to repair their marriages.

Speaker 18 I took pause for a second of seeing these women really try

Speaker 18 and then saying, You know, I think I'm to the point now where I can walk away because I've really done everything. I've exhausted all efforts.

Speaker 18 And I had a moment of, I should have exhausted all efforts. Why didn't I do that? So this past week, two of them did say it.

Speaker 18 I wish I would have left right away. And like after we hung up, I just,

Speaker 18 I don't know, I just like cried and cried and cried just because it was validating.

Speaker 18 There's so many things that just you replan your head like, did I, should I, could I,

Speaker 18 even though I know

Speaker 18 I did the right thing, but hearing someone say, I wish I did that,

Speaker 18 it just felt validating.

Speaker 16 And like we said, in any given group, there's always a story in your head that should I have tried harder? Should I have left sooner?

Speaker 16 It is the conundrum.

Speaker 18 Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 16 You know, having hope that they'll change.

Speaker 16 And then it's the painful

Speaker 16 coming to that hard conclusion when you're just like, I don't think this person's ever going to change. It's not always the case.

Speaker 16 I obviously do work with couples and addicts in recovery who do pivot and change.

Speaker 16 So I always say it's okay to leave and it's okay to stay.

Speaker 16 But especially the betrayed partners who don't get the closure.

Speaker 16 The full disclosure of what really happened, a full understanding of why they did what they did, with a newfound understanding because they've done all this work to understand their poor coping skills.

Speaker 16 what led them to do these behaviors and what was really going on in their head.

Speaker 16 It is so hard for betrayed partners to move through and heal without that closure.

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Speaker 1 We've been listening to Caroline talk with Kristen Snowden about healing after betrayal. One of the things Caroline addressed in her sessions was how to have healthy relationships going forward.

Speaker 18 Every Sunday, a group of friends and I get together and we do something called Separate Club. I mean, they're kind of my core group of people, like my trusted circle, the ones who know the full story.

Speaker 18 But one of the things about being

Speaker 18 in that circle is that they've seen me on this journey of attempting to move forward, attempting to garner some semblance of normalcy.

Speaker 18 And they've seen me go from very, very scared to start dating to, I'm going to rip the band-aid off and go on my first date. Or I think I'll hang out with this person for a little bit.

Speaker 18 Oh, this person is not healthier. These qualities are things that I don't want around me.

Speaker 18 And I will make

Speaker 18 excuses very quick to not let things be serious or feel vulnerable in any way. And then there's been times where I have thought, I just am starting to feel too close and I'd rather

Speaker 18 run before I feel hurt.

Speaker 18 Well,

Speaker 18 for the first time,

Speaker 18 maybe ever, since this happened, I have been around someone who is just, if you just

Speaker 18 saw this person, my joke is that this is like a mother's dream. I mean, this is someone who is personable and handsome and amazing, has done good service for the community and to his country.

Speaker 18 And there are times where I have been getting ready to hang out with him, and I will literally be putting on my makeup and think to myself, you should run tonight.

Speaker 18 Tonight's the night you should just go to dinner and then ghost him, never speak to him again.

Speaker 18 And I can't really tell you why.

Speaker 18 It's just this feeling of protect yourself now before you feel any more vulnerable. Run.

Speaker 18 Nothing has gone wrong. There's been no red flag.
There's nothing except this internal voice in me that says, you're starting to let your guard down. Protect yourself.
Go, go now. Yeah.

Speaker 18 And,

Speaker 18 you know, this supper club that I do,

Speaker 18 I took a chance and invited him to supper club.

Speaker 18 He walked in just a little bit late. Now, the excuse for being late, something came up with his kids.
He was just running a little bit late. Was it two hours late? No, an hour late, not even close.

Speaker 18 Nothing like that. But in that moment, I thought, there it is.
There's your reason. Do it, do it now.

Speaker 18 Just ridiculous.

Speaker 18 And

Speaker 18 one of my friends in Supper Club actually said,

Speaker 18 do not let this be this reason that you let something good go.

Speaker 18 Don't do it.

Speaker 18 So I know people see it

Speaker 18 and I know it, but I don't know how to let go of that feeling.

Speaker 16 Well, honestly, because once you've had your instincts and intuition totally destroyed and dismantled and been told, oh, it's night outside when the sun is beaming in your eyes.

Speaker 16 It's so common to constantly struggle with the inner compass of what's safe and what's not safe.

Speaker 16 When we have these wounded parts in us, these really

Speaker 16 hurt parts, because understandably so, you have been victimized. We often want to push them away because we're sitting there getting ready for the date.
We should be happy.

Speaker 16 We tell ourselves what we should be, right? This is a good person. It's great that we're dating.
As you said, all the moms of the world would love him.

Speaker 16 So instinctively want to push out that scared part that's screaming out. But you have to do kind of something that is counterintuitive, which is go into that part and learn more.

Speaker 16 And it actually is pretty amazing, like the stories that scared part will tell you.

Speaker 18 Yeah, I think that's a really good challenge.

Speaker 16 And for a woman, let's say, especially a nurturing mom like you, it helps with our paradigm shift if we view it as like a scared child or even a scared teenager. And you listen to it like a mom

Speaker 16 because you're not judging it. You're not saying, What's wrong with you? This guy's great.
Like, stop it, shut up. Instead, you can say, What's scary? All right, how can I help you feel safe?

Speaker 16 What do we know now

Speaker 16 versus what we're feeling inside? And can we get through this?

Speaker 16 And then you and I talked about this before, but it's also all about

Speaker 16 the repair attempt that happens once you bring this to the person you're dating.

Speaker 16 You now have taken the minute to be like, this triggered the heck out of me. I feel really unsafe.
Lateness does not just mean being late to me.

Speaker 16 There's this amazing repair attempt that can happen in a future relationship. where this time

Speaker 16 your partner doesn't invalidate you. They don't tell you you're crazy.
They can say, you know, I'm sorry this made you feel scared or upset.

Speaker 16 I'm sorry this triggered a history, but let me help you feel safer this time.

Speaker 18 So it's interesting that you bring that last part up because

Speaker 18 I wanted to be fair and I actually told him about the podcast. And so telling him about the podcast meant that I had to

Speaker 18 tell him

Speaker 18 about my history.

Speaker 18 And I admit that I not only told him to be fair, but I also told him because there was this piece of me that was like,

Speaker 18 so you're going to hear this and you're going to see just the insanity that I've had to experience. Let me see if I can get you to run.

Speaker 18 And

Speaker 18 his response was,

Speaker 18 I think you're really brave.

Speaker 16 Wow.

Speaker 16 And how healing was that sentence?

Speaker 18 It was

Speaker 18 just like, oh my God.

Speaker 18 Oh my God. Like, thank you.

Speaker 18 It had been a really long time to hear someone.

Speaker 18 I mean, of course, my friends, my friends have seen and heard, and they know the insanity and the wheel of insanity that I was locked into and what I was going through.

Speaker 18 But for him to have taken pause, listened to me, asked relevant clarifying questions, and then ended ended it with, I think you're really brave.

Speaker 18 It took

Speaker 18 this weight off of me

Speaker 18 and to have just this pause for,

Speaker 18 wait,

Speaker 18 there is some humanity in this.

Speaker 16 That is so healing. I mean, that's why I also say why betrayal trauma can never be healed on your own, because these are severe attachment wounds.
These are wounds that came due to others

Speaker 16 breaking your heart and betraying you. So a lot of the healing and rewiring has to occur in a relationship setting.
And as you mentioned, good friends, family, but your brain has to find new evidence.

Speaker 16 that your ex's behaviors were more unique and an anomaly that you can avoid by taking healthy steps and setting up boundaries and keeping other safe people around you for a checks and balance system.

Speaker 16 But these are the rule. He was the exception.
These are the rule. And you can still feel safe and vulnerable with these people.

Speaker 18 It's tough, though. That's scary.

Speaker 16 Well, and let's like talk to those scared parts for a second. What is different? You know, update those scared parts that were betrayed and blindsided.

Speaker 10 What is different now?

Speaker 18 Well, one of the biggest things is that I'm not married

Speaker 18 and I'm not locked into

Speaker 18 this need to believe or

Speaker 18 feel like I needed to have blind trust in someone

Speaker 18 that I am my own authority. I can make my own decisions on this.
I don't need to believe anyone for anything.

Speaker 16 Yeah. I always say I never let someone tell me what my reality and my experience is.

Speaker 16 You never get to tell me that.

Speaker 16 And even if, even, even if I am inaccurate with like thinking that you're somewhere or that you were cheating and you're not cheating, the bottom line is my experiences, I'm questioning

Speaker 16 your choices. I'm not feeling safe in this relationship.

Speaker 16 I'm experiencing incongruencies that are making me want to pull away. I don't feel respected.
I don't feel like you're hearing me. And those are all important things to be relentless about.

Speaker 16 I'm supposed to feel safe with other people. And so when I don't, it's my job, my responsibility to really go inside and say, okay, what is happening that's making me not feel safe?

Speaker 16 A partner who loves you, who considers you a partner, you guys should both be invested in helping the other person feel safe, be able to talk it out, negotiate, validate,

Speaker 16 change the way you approach issues that aren't working.

Speaker 16 But from the parts work, I would say don't ignore those parts. They're not bad.
But you have to dive deeper into that part and understand what's it trying to tell you.

Speaker 16 And then the other piece is to let them know,

Speaker 16 this isn't updated information. I didn't know how to keep myself safe in the past.
I was completely bamboozled. I was deprived of all the information I needed to keep myself safe.

Speaker 16 I didn't even know what I didn't even know.

Speaker 16 But look how much more I know now.

Speaker 18 Thank you, Kristen. You have no idea.
This means so much to me. The fact that I have this clarity and insight now, I just, I can't thank you enough.

Speaker 1 A quick note before we end. Caroline and Kristen discussed attachment wounds and parts work, which are just two approaches to dealing with trauma responses.

Speaker 1 Kristen recommended that Caroline seek out further evidence-based trauma therapy practices, such as EMDR, neurofeedback, brain spotting, and internal family systems work.

Speaker 1 It's critical for anyone seeking therapeutic care to work with a licensed professional. If you want more from Kristen, go to her website, kristensnowden.com.
We've linked it in the show notes.

Speaker 1 On the next episode of Betrayal, we discuss how grief is a marathon. Well, this is the first year that we have actually gotten to sink.
My brother just crossed the finish line.

Speaker 1 Thank you for listening to Betrayal Season 4. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
That's betrayalpod

Speaker 1 at gmail.com. Also, please be sure to follow us on Instagram at betrayalpod and me, Andrea H.
Gunning, for all betrayal content, news, and updates.

Speaker 1 One way to support the series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal.
Five-star reviews help us know you appreciate what we do.

Speaker 1 Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.

Speaker 1 Betrayal is hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Caitlin Golden.
Also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Fetterman. Our associate producer is Kristen Melcuri.

Speaker 1 Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreinchek.

Speaker 1 Story editing by Monique Laborde. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio.
Editing by Tanner Robbins. Special thanks to voice actor John Balomo.
And special thanks to Caroline and her family.

Speaker 1 Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.

Speaker 1 Music library provided by MyMusic. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 11 And now, Superhuman Shaq.

Speaker 12 I keep telling them not to say that. I'm no superhuman.
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Speaker 12 Let's just say it can sound a lot like this.

Speaker 12 Sound familiar? Learn more at don't sleep on OSA.com.

Speaker 11 This information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

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