Betrayal LIVE! on Virgin Voyages

Transcript

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Speaker 1 Hi everyone, it's Andrea. This week, we're doing something a little different.

Speaker 1 My producer, Monique, and I spent last week at sea with Virgin Voyages, where we produced Betrayal's first ever live show.

Speaker 1 Stacey Tyler and Michaela from Betrayal Season 3 joined us, as well as Caroline and her kids from season 4.

Speaker 1 If you listen to our show, you know that Stacey's husband Justin pled guilty to sexual abuse of a minor, including his abuse of his stepson Tyler.

Speaker 1 And in season four, Caroline's husband Joel was caught having sex in his police patrol car. He had carried on multiple affairs during their marriage, including some that happened while he was on duty.

Speaker 1 Together, we had an incredible conversation about survivor-centered true crime. and what it's like to have your real life turned into a true crime podcast.

Speaker 1 It's an emotional and in-depth conversation about the kind of work we do and what it means to the people who are at the center of it. We hope you enjoy.

Speaker 1 Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Gunning.
I'm the host and producer of Betrayal.

Speaker 45 I'm Monique. I'm a producer on Betrayal.

Speaker 45 I'm going to be moderating tonight so that Andrea can really be in the conversation because she has poured her soul into this show and she's also been a leader in the podcast industry bringing this show to TV, which we're on season three of Betrayal on Hulu.

Speaker 1 Just came out last month.

Speaker 1 When I started this show in 2019, I didn't know if one person would listen, if two people would listen. I could have never imagined being on a cruise doing our first live show.

Speaker 22 I know.

Speaker 47 It's really crazy.

Speaker 1 For those of you that don't know what betrayal is, it's a project where we focus on families whose lives have been upended due to devastating betrayal.

Speaker 1 And we focus on the crime and the aftermath, but it's really a show about strength and resilience.

Speaker 1 And so tonight we're going to focus on two families, the family from season three, which is Stacey Tyler and Michaela's story, and the family from season four

Speaker 1 about Caroline Brega and her kids.

Speaker 45 For a lot of the survivors we're going to bring out tonight, this is their first ever time talking about their story to a live audience.

Speaker 45 And it's a little strange to be on stage clapping and cheering for some of the worst things that have ever happened to someone.

Speaker 47 It can kind of feel like that, you know, true crime cruise.

Speaker 45 But we're really here to celebrate the survivors and the bravery and courage of these families to tell their stories. And that's what we're celebrating.

Speaker 1 So, without further ado, let's all welcome Stacey, Tyler, and Michaela.

Speaker 46 Hey y'all, how you doing?

Speaker 47 How you feeling?

Speaker 22 Good. Good.
Amazing.

Speaker 22 Nervous.

Speaker 47 You know,

Speaker 45 Stacey, the documentary came out a month ago. It seems like a lot of people here are already familiar with your story, are listeners of betrayal.

Speaker 45 So I want to start with what it was like for you to see your,

Speaker 45 I see you're emotional right now. What it was like to see your life played back on a true crime documentary.

Speaker 44 I don't think it was something that I ever thought would happen.

Speaker 44 It was a little different seeing it. I know me and Tyler have had conversations like it wasn't our story.
Like we were like, ooh, what's going to happen next?

Speaker 44 Like we didn't know.

Speaker 44 But yeah, there were some moments that were tough. I think when they went back to the good times or the good times that we thought were.

Speaker 44 They were a little hard. We were lucky to kind of sit through each other's interviews.

Speaker 44 So the things that we talked about were not new to us when the documentary came out because we got to sit and be a part of that with each other.

Speaker 44 So that was good. I think that helped us to kind of prepare for what was going to be on TV.

Speaker 45 Yeah, Tyler, what about for you? What was it like to see it all together? Watch it back.

Speaker 51 I mean, kind of just like similar to what my mom said, a lot of just like, ooh, this looks good. Like, it isn't our story.

Speaker 51 But really, the biggest thing for me was just finally seeing it in person and like like knowing that people would see my face with me being so young and everything I had been through.

Speaker 51 It's really big to me that I get my story out there and I show a lot of other young men that this is not so uncommon and a lot of other men go through these struggles.

Speaker 51 So it was a really good moment for me. I was really happy to see it in real time.

Speaker 45 Yeah, and you've already experienced people reaching out to you after the documentary.

Speaker 51 Yeah, I mean, it's when it first came out,

Speaker 51 I couldn't even keep up with all the messages. I mean, there was hundreds a day.

Speaker 51 And still, what, two months later at this point, I'd probably get at least five to 10 a day, which is still pretty crazy.

Speaker 51 I've had businesses hit me with job offers to work at a gym as a personal trainer. I've had some pretty big celebrities hit me up to continue telling my story and do some pretty big things.

Speaker 51 So I'm excited for that.

Speaker 22 Yeah,

Speaker 45 we're all so excited for you and proud of you. I want to talk about updates since the documentary came out.

Speaker 51 Yeah, so my stepfather, who you all saw in this documentary, he is currently suing me for defamation.

Speaker 51 Yeah, yeah, defamation. I made it all up.

Speaker 51 Yeah, suing me for defamation because everything I said was a lie. I wish I could show you all the papers.
It's a bunch of bullshit.

Speaker 51 I'm going to be real. I'm blunt.
I'm not going to hide who I am.

Speaker 51 Thank you guys. Yeah, but he wants to sue me for coming out and talking, but I hope he knows all that does is motivate me to keep coming.

Speaker 45 Yeah, Andrea, do you want to talk about that a little bit, about the defamation lawsuit and like the ways that we see those being used, I think, to manipulate a lot of times storytellers and try to silence people from telling their story, survivors?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I just think it was a scared tactic to try to keep Tyler from speaking. And, you know, oftentimes we see perpetrators try to control this story.
And

Speaker 1 I think he was used to being in control for a really long time. And,

Speaker 1 you know, you've got a great attorney and you're working on it. Yep.

Speaker 44 You know,

Speaker 44 his lawyer told me, you have to have character to say a defamation of character. And we've clearly proven that you don't have character.

Speaker 44 So, you know, everybody's a jailhouse lawyer.

Speaker 44 So, and we knew this was going to happen. He's filing appeals as well because he's throwing anything at the wall to make it stick and whatever.

Speaker 44 He's trying to appeal his sentence because it was too long, boohoo.

Speaker 44 We know that this is something that we're probably going to have to deal with for the rest of our lives because that is his right, I've been told.

Speaker 44 But, you know, in the end, he just constantly keeps burying himself because the district attorney told me the more appeals you file, the more it looks like you show no remorse.

Speaker 44 So she said, every time he does this, it's another nail in his coffin. So we fully intend that he's going to put himself there for his maximum sentence.

Speaker 45 We're going to bring your oldest daughter, Michaela, in in a second, but I want to talk about the family decision to participate in first the podcast and then the Hulu documentary.

Speaker 44 When they reached out to me about the podcast, I immediately talked to Michaela and Tyler about it because it's not my story. It's all of our stories.

Speaker 44 I wasn't going to exploit my child by going out and speaking without his knowledge. So I told him, if we do this, we do it all together.

Speaker 44 And it was just something that we felt, I think, that we needed to do for healing. And just, we wanted to take something like this and turn it into something good.

Speaker 44 And we knew that that was the only way that we could do it was to just make people more aware.

Speaker 44 Because I think when you first have this happen to you, you have so many people come up to you and say, Oh my gosh, you know, that was that happened to me, or that happened to my brother or this.

Speaker 44 And you don't, you have no idea how many people you know that have dealt with the same thing.

Speaker 44 I think we have a lot of broken people in this world, and I think it's because a lot of people stay silent about these things.

Speaker 44 So I think our hope was that we could reach a lot more hurting men and just change the world.

Speaker 51 Yeah, pretty much second that.

Speaker 51 But yeah, going into all this, it it was just about I knew what I had been through,

Speaker 51 you know, searching the web, looking things up. As a child going through all this, I genuinely thought I was the only boy in the world who knew what this was like.

Speaker 51 And I thought I was the only boy in the world who had gone through something like this. And that was a big part of the reason why I never talked,

Speaker 51 I never did anything to make a change because I thought this was just my life. This was where I was stuck.
No one would understand me.

Speaker 51 But as I've gone throughout this journey, I've shared my story, talked to endless people, I've realized

Speaker 51 it's an epidemic, to be honest. It's crazy the amount of men that I've realized who have gone through the exact same things I have.

Speaker 51 They say it's one in six, but with all the people I've talked to, it's probably even higher than that. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more one in four, one in three.

Speaker 51 You're not alone if you're a man who'd been through something like this.

Speaker 51 And when I was represented the opportunity to come through, do this, use my story to give other men what I didn't have, I couldn't pass it up.

Speaker 45 Andre, you've worked on this story now two years more almost. So, you know, a big part of production, we spend hours and hours and hours and hours.

Speaker 45 A lot of those moments never make it to air, especially with the Hulu documentary. You're filming a lot of things that never make it to air.
So can you tell me about some of those moments?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, there was one scene that we shot Tyler, and that was my favorite scene to do.

Speaker 45 I hate even calling it a scene, but it was.

Speaker 1 And we were just like working out and talking about life and where you are now. And I've known you for two years and you've grown so much.

Speaker 1 And I think one of the things that you were working on is learning to

Speaker 1 stop thinking about life in the conditional way. Like, if I do this, then I'll be happy.
If I get here, I'll be happy. If this happens, I'll be okay.

Speaker 1 Because that's what happens when survivors of abuse, they go through that because that

Speaker 1 exchange is conditional. It's transactional.

Speaker 1 And I feel like you've come such a long way to just be present and figure out who you want to be and do what you want to do. And we talked about that in the scene.
And that was like my favorite.

Speaker 1 And it didn't make it to air. I think, Michaela, you have a scene too that you love.

Speaker 47 Yeah, I had a scene. Tyler made a comment to me about how he was very thankful that I was like the stronghold for our family, and that he was very sorry that I was kind of put on the back burner.

Speaker 47 Like it was just very sweet, very emotional moment that I think a lot of people needed to see.

Speaker 47 And that got cut too.

Speaker 44 Michaela's kind of,

Speaker 44 I I don't want to say a silent victim,

Speaker 44 but I think that,

Speaker 44 you know, all of the focus was really on like Tyler and his healing and what happened to him. And it was a really good moment for us to say to you that, you know, we were sorry that

Speaker 44 you kind of got faded into the background a little bit because that was never anyone's intention.

Speaker 44 You know, so it was a sweet moment between everybody and we were really sad when the documentary came out. We were like, man,

Speaker 45 that was such a good moment. Yeah, like your mom was saying, you know, your part of this story can sometimes get overshadowed, but if it was not for you, we might not be sitting here.

Speaker 45 So, can you tell me a little bit about reporting to the police what that experience was for you?

Speaker 47 Yeah, so for those of you that didn't listen, Tyler's friend, who is, I guess we'll call him, for lack of better terms, the first victim, he reached out to me and disclosed to me that my stepdad had done this to him.

Speaker 47 And

Speaker 47 like

Speaker 47 full disclosure, I was driving and I opened the message and immediately started like bawling. And of course, like 40 million things are going through my head.

Speaker 47 One thing being this is why you don't text and drive. But

Speaker 47 I mean,

Speaker 47 so I pulled over, had like a two-minute cry, and then I was like, work mode. At the time, I worked worked at an outpatient psychiatry office, so I was like a mandated reporter.

Speaker 47 And so I immediately went to work mode and was like, Okay, these are the steps I need to do, and I'm going to do them. I do not care that he is my stepdad, I don't care who the fuck he is.

Speaker 47 And now, the scary part, I guess, for me was that this was different. At work, I just make a report, But here, he was already under investigation for the cameras.
And so I was like, okay,

Speaker 47 I feel like I need to talk to a detective or something.

Speaker 59 Like, I don't know.

Speaker 47 It was just like something in my brain didn't care that he was a father figure to me. It was like, let's get this done.
Let's do the right thing.

Speaker 45 And then that next few hours moved really quickly.

Speaker 58 Yeah, so

Speaker 47 I drove about an hour and a half or so to the police station and then when I got there I gave them my phone.

Speaker 47 They took all the evidence off of it, all the messages with his friend and then they were like, oh well while you're here let's go through this binder and they opened it and it was photos of friends, family, anything you can think of in the bathroom.

Speaker 47 They had me identify everybody. And then

Speaker 47 they whipped out another binder and that binder was all me.

Speaker 47 I saw my husband on some photos.

Speaker 49 And then after that, I left.

Speaker 47 I called mom. Immediately she's like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm leaving work.
I'm grabbing my kids and we're going.

Speaker 47 And I was like, well, I have a tiny little one bedroom apartment, but you could stay with me.

Speaker 47 Poor Tommy, he didn't even know any of this because it was like so fast, everything's happening that I didn't get time to tell him until it was, he was already off work and I was like, hey, by the way, mom and the kids are coming to our tiny little

Speaker 47 900 square foot one bedroom apartment. I worked from home for a few days, tried to help mom with the kids, tried to figure life out, and then Tyler came forward.

Speaker 45 Yeah. We're going to talk more about that time period and kind of like survival mode and how that gets represented in true crime stories.

Speaker 45 But I also want to talk about your position as the eldest daughter and Tyler's big sister.

Speaker 45 Can you tell me from your perspective what it's been like to watch Tyler's journey of coming forward and then getting to the place where he is today?

Speaker 47 Yeah, absolutely. Just watching him

Speaker 47 help

Speaker 47 other people is something that I can't even explain to anybody what kind of feeling that is inside as somebody who was his caretaker for a long time.

Speaker 22 Yeah. Yeah.
Well, thank you.

Speaker 45 What about for you, Stacey, watching Tyler go on this journey over the past few years with the show? What has that been like for you as a mom?

Speaker 44 I don't think anybody can ever understand

Speaker 54 what betrayal did for us.

Speaker 44 You know, we had a lot of people say things like, you know, gosh, why would you want to share that? Or why do you want to go national with that? And this and that.

Speaker 44 And I had those moments especially when people can be very cruel online and judge but I think seeing him grow and also just seeing the men that have came behind him and said

Speaker 44 you know I'm 50 some years old and I've never told anybody this in my life

Speaker 44 There are people that are free because of you and I'm incredibly proud to be your mother

Speaker 44 and I don't care what anybody says and I don't care,

Speaker 44 you know, if someone thinks I did something wrong. I think I did things wrong.
I promise you, if I was watching my documentary, I would have been like,

Speaker 22 girl,

Speaker 44 I would have talked shit about myself.

Speaker 44 It's true, you know, when you're in those kind of moments, you know, you're just coming from a place of just sheer chaos. But I'm just incredibly proud to be your mom.

Speaker 7 Well, thank you guys.

Speaker 44 He still doesn't take the trash out enough, though.

Speaker 44 We could work on that.

Speaker 51 She's lying.

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Speaker 22 Welcome back.

Speaker 1 We took a short break to bring out Caroline Berega from season four along with her two kids. Her daughter Nicole was on stage and her son participated from the audience to protect his anonymity.

Speaker 45 Thank you all so much for being here.

Speaker 54 Thank you for having us.

Speaker 45 Caroline, you know, I want to hear a little bit in your words about what you went through.

Speaker 54 It was an infamous Monday afternoon. I was at work and I opened my laptop and I was in an online meeting.
and I saw my phone go off.

Speaker 54 There was a chime and I saw that there were cameras around our house and that there was some movement. And as I looked at it, I noticed that my now ex-husband was dragging up the trash cans.

Speaker 54 And I thought to myself, oh, that's strange. I wonder what he's doing home so early.
Maybe he was out on an investigation or something happened and he just ran by to grab some lunch.

Speaker 54 And I continued to watch. And then it dawned on me, where's his take-home cop car? The take-home cop car wasn't in the driveway.
And so I texted him and I said, hey, is everything okay?

Speaker 54 And he didn't respond. And hey, is everything okay? I noticed that you're home really early.
And I just continued to watch the little dots, the three ellipses on my phone bounce.

Speaker 54 And finally, he responded. And he said, no, everything's not okay.
I've fucked up the worst I've ever fucked up in my life. You're going to want to divorce me.

Speaker 54 And I was scared. And I thought, you know, what happened? And so...

Speaker 54 After several attempts, he finally answered the phone and he was very stoic about it and just let me know what he did. And I was able to maintain my composure.

Speaker 54 I gently closed my laptop, and then I walked out and I made it to a street corner before I just completely lost it. And I said, What have you done?

Speaker 54 And he just emphasized repeatedly, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. Caroline, you have to tell the kids.
Reporters are going to start calling the house. You have to tell the kids.

Speaker 54 And I didn't know what to do. I drove home.

Speaker 49 I don't remember driving home.

Speaker 54 And when I got to the house, I was just kind of pacing. And Nicole came home, and she was very jovial, her typical self.
And she said, hey, who's doing my job for me? Who brought the trash up today?

Speaker 54 I mean, though it's ironic, the stuff you remember in times of trauma. And I just sat there staring at her.
And she said, are you okay? And I said, no. And she said, is daddy okay?

Speaker 54 I didn't even know how to respond. And I just said, no.

Speaker 54 And she got kind of this shock because when you're a cops kid, you live in fear that something happens to your dad.

Speaker 54 And the next words out of her mouth were, did he get caught cheating on you?

Speaker 54 And

Speaker 54 I just stared at her. And for those of you who have listened to the podcast, I can assure you, my son graduated with honors from a very prestigious university.

Speaker 54 But she did call him because we didn't have the rule book or a handbook on how you handle when a disclosure like this happens. And

Speaker 54 she said, hey, I got to talk to you. It's an emergency.
And he said, hey, I'm getting ready to take a chem exam. And she's like, no, it's an emergency.
So again, I can assure you, he did pass.

Speaker 54 Everything is fine.

Speaker 54 Next thing you know, our life was just a whirlwind and a snowball. And I went into autopilot and trying to make sure that I could have some form of normalcy and just get by.

Speaker 22 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 45 I want to talk a little bit about your husband's career as a police officer and

Speaker 45 you specifically, as his partner, for 25 years sacrificed so much personally

Speaker 45 to give him those advancements in his career, those late nights that you were taking care of the house and the kids.

Speaker 45 And a big part of your value system was believing in what he did and the institution he worked for.

Speaker 45 And that changed for you overnight. So, can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like and where you're at with that today?

Speaker 54 Absolutely. My ex-husband was a very decorated

Speaker 54 service member for the community, and we had a room in our home, our office, that were filled with just community and commanders' commendations.

Speaker 54 He joked and called it the Love Me Room because everything in there was all about him and showed all the love from the community of him. I knew when I married a cop what I was getting into.

Speaker 54 I'm not an anomaly of someone who marries into a law enforcement family.

Speaker 54 I made a sacrifice of knowing that I was going to have to be with the kids alone at night and I would be the person who would be aerating the field when I'm walking across to take them to practice and to dance class and that it would be something that would be busy.

Speaker 54 And I didn't sacrifice everything for me. I too have a career and you know do use my brain and my degrees.

Speaker 54 But I knew that I would be the person who would be able to have more flexibility to be there for our family and would also be the person who would be able to support him and his career as well.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 45 Yeah. You know, your career is something that your job has asked you not to talk about.
Otherwise, we would love to have featured it in the podcast and have it be a part of who you are on the show.

Speaker 45 But we understand and we want you to keep your job. So.
Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 45 Dre, can you talk a little bit about Caroline's story and why it stood out to you as

Speaker 45 the season you wanted to produce next?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it started off as a potential story for the weekly series. So you were actually working with Caroline directly, which is a little bit different.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And we were just talking about it in a production meeting, and there was research we had to do. And we had to, you know, find

Speaker 1 IA files on Joel.

Speaker 45 Internal affairs.

Speaker 1 Thank you. And we finally got them back.
And there was so much there.

Speaker 1 And we said to each other, this can't just be a weekly. We need to do 10 episodes on this story.

Speaker 45 It's very rare working in media to get internal affairs investigations, audio files from police investigations. And so we said, you know, this is something that we need to follow.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so that was the beginning of everything. Yeah.

Speaker 57 And you had already had a relationship with Mo, and I'm like, hi, you know?

Speaker 1 And, you know, we get this question a lot, like, why this story?

Speaker 1 And I oftentimes, especially from law enforcement, like, I've seen so much. This isn't the worst case ever.

Speaker 1 You know, it's important for betrayal to focus on stories that really feel like the everyday,

Speaker 1 that feel like that could be your neighbor or your friend, because it feels accessible. And then we can understand it.
And that's why I thought your story was important to share.

Speaker 45 Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk to you, Nicole.

Speaker 1 Hi. Hi.

Speaker 45 You're the one who originally found betrayal. So in a lot of ways, you're another reason we're here on stage.

Speaker 56 Yes, you're welcome.

Speaker 45 What has it been like for you to watch your mom over the past three years, you know, since your dad's actions came to light, but also this past year in particular, producing the podcast?

Speaker 56 She's always been such a like independent and powerful woman. So

Speaker 56 seeing her go through the 2022 year, which was, you know, infamous year.

Speaker 56 That was, of course, really hard because she just wasn't herself.

Speaker 56 But ever since we kind of got our footing as a new family, a family as three, she's really grown into someone that people go to,

Speaker 56 whether that's women that have experienced cheating and whatever else, or even women in our own police department where this happened, come to her as like a source of comfort and be a person that people can lean on.

Speaker 45 Caroline, I want to ask some questions to both of your kids, but before we do, I want to talk a little bit more about the institutional betrayal of the police department, because that was also a place where you put a lot of time and energy in and I think expected some support back.

Speaker 45 Institutional betrayal is a term we recently learned from this research psychologist, Dr. Jennifer Fried.

Speaker 45 And it's a different experience than the interpersonal betrayal you had with your ex-husband. And I want to talk a little bit about how that felt different, what that felt like.

Speaker 54 Sure.

Speaker 54 It's a phenomenon when you're in a law enforcement family. And I can say without making a big disclosure, I work in a very closely law enforcement related field.

Speaker 54 And when you're a part of a law enforcement family, law enforcement tends to hang out with law enforcement. These were people who were at the births of my kids.

Speaker 54 They showed up shortly thereafter with gifts. We did family functions together.
We celebrated together. There was law enforcement lined up in our wedding party.

Speaker 54 My ex-husband's groom's cake was a pig with a badge on it.

Speaker 54 So

Speaker 54 this was our life and it was a big piece of it. And I can tell you that

Speaker 54 you become fiercely protective of each other. And I had this big belief that, yes, there are bad apples in every organization, but they're few and far between.
I would chant that to myself.

Speaker 54 I was extremely protective over other law enforcement families, and you just become this big unit together. And

Speaker 54 as my ex-husband's double life began to unravel, I lost all that.

Speaker 54 So I didn't just lose my nuclear family. I lost my extended family within the law enforcement community.
And

Speaker 54 it was just vanished. My facade of what I had tried to raise my kids to believe about law enforcement and trusting law enforcement, what I believed about it completely vanished.

Speaker 54 So it was just not grief of my nuclear family, it was grief of my community.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 45 You know, like Andrea said, we first started working together. And I remember in the beginning, about a year and a half ago, before

Speaker 45 we did our very first interview, you were understandably very cautious about participating in this.

Speaker 45 So can you tell me a little bit about what you were weighing when you were deciding, do I want to tell this story publicly?

Speaker 54 It's not the most comfortable feeling to reveal the most private details of your life. And I was really struggling with how I wanted to approach this.
I was living in this silence and this constant

Speaker 54 internal thought of, oh my gosh, how did this happen to me? How did this happen? And I think that's really why the podcast drew me in so much.

Speaker 54 There's an episode in season one where it's the very first time I ever heard the term betrayal trauma, betrayal therapy.

Speaker 20 And I am not too proud to admit it.

Speaker 54 I listened to that episode at least a dozen times.

Speaker 54 I just resonated with me so much. And it was just really, really difficult to really imagine putting myself out there.
It was scary because I didn't want to have this define my kids.

Speaker 54 It certainly has shaped them, but it certainly does not define them whatsoever. And I work in a law enforcement-related community, so this was really difficult for me to, in essence,

Speaker 54 call out some of my colleagues and put that on blast. But

Speaker 54 I remember those conversations very, very well.

Speaker 54 And I would love to go back and tell myself, oh my God, suck it up, buttercup, put your head up, throw your shoulders back, and be the damn voice for women who are living in terror and shame to discuss this.

Speaker 11 Hell yeah.

Speaker 45 Wow.

Speaker 45 I want to pivot to Caroline's son in the audience and have you two talk as her children.

Speaker 45 I mean, you know, you have said that this was a family decision, and I remember when you were weighing if you wanted to do this, a big part of it was, I got to talk to my kids.

Speaker 45 I got to make sure my kids are okay with this. So I want to hear about what those conversations were like with y'all as a family about, are we on board with this? Are we going to participate?

Speaker 45 Are we going to support our mom in this? What was that like for y'all?

Speaker 45 Nicole, do you want to start?

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 56 So when my mom first came to us discussing the possibility of us doing the podcast and going forward with everything,

Speaker 56 I, of course, wanted my mom's narrative out there, our family's narrative out there, because we were so silent. People just assumed or they just flat out told lies about our family.

Speaker 56 And of course, my dad's presence in my town didn't help with that.

Speaker 22 So

Speaker 56 that was the main reason why I wanted to do this, or we wanted to do this as a family unit, to just put our voice out there and say

Speaker 56 we're solidified in our new sense of reality, and this is how we're going to move forward. And even though all of this happened, we came out on the other side stronger.

Speaker 52 I think it boils down to two main reasons. I think seeing the effect that the podcast had on both my mom and my sister and the value that they got from it, I think that was huge.

Speaker 52 And I also think that it takes courage to platform these stories, and it takes courage to tell these stories. And I think people need to hear them.

Speaker 52 And the messages that we receive on a daily basis of people people saying what we said listening to the podcast initially, you know, this could be us.

Speaker 52 And so I think it's important to let people know that you can go through these unfortunate circumstances, to say the least, and make it out on the other side.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 45 And I think that, Caroline's son, the way that we have navigated your privacy and your participation in this show, you you know, shows that there are different ways that you can

Speaker 45 incorporate different members of the family that have different comfort levels with their exposure.

Speaker 45 So, can you talk a little bit about why it was important for you to be a voice on the show and participate actively?

Speaker 22 Well,

Speaker 52 you have these prominent community members and law enforcement and other related fields just saying blatant lies about my entire family.

Speaker 52 And obviously, that didn't sit right with any of us. And so it's not about getting the truth, where it's not about getting our truth out there.

Speaker 52 It's literally just the truth out to the community, and that was a part of it. And

Speaker 52 I think also just

Speaker 52 this experience brought us closer together.

Speaker 52 And I think that having a unified front, and I'm appreciative of the accommodations to my privacy requests and all that, but being a unified front was huge, and I'm honored to be a part part of it, and I'm proud of them.

Speaker 1 I think what people often forget is,

Speaker 1 aside from the affairs, what Joel was doing was planting seeds about who you were as a person, as a wife, as a mother behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 So if he ever did get caught by a colleague, they would say, well, could you blame him? Like he was creating a story about you

Speaker 1 and you know putting your reputation on the line. So it was so much more than just the sexual misconduct within the CSPD.

Speaker 1 It was how he was using you and your image and what you've done for your family against you so that he could just get away with it. And that's, I think, really important

Speaker 1 because when we started working together, you're like, I want my truth to be told because he took that away from you. You really did.

Speaker 45 You know, truth and transparency has become a theme of the family that y'all have rebuilt with the three of you.

Speaker 45 And so, I want to talk about what that looks like when you have two adult children and you're saying, now we're pivoting, new family, and we're going to reconvene and make new values.

Speaker 45 So, what does it mean to have truth and transparency be such a big value in your family?

Speaker 54 I think I'm going to let my kids take that one.

Speaker 2 Well, going off of this, like, new family,

Speaker 56 everything happened in April, and then after that, we recognized that little things in our family we just kind of let slide, as I'm sure many other families can relate, like certain fights that we had, or behaviors, or whatever else we just didn't want to bring up.

Speaker 56 And so, moving forward with my mom, my brother, and myself, we realized that we just want to be our authentic selves.

Speaker 56 And to do that comes truth and accountability and recognizing each other's paths and really just being each other's advocates.

Speaker 52 And we had to go through this process of healing together. And it's a non-linear process.
It doesn't get better every single day. There's good days and bad days.
We still have good days and bad days.

Speaker 52 We're still healing. But I think it's the understanding of we're in it together and we're going to go through this together for the rest of our time here.

Speaker 52 And I think that was important too. And part of that, after facing so many lies and such profound deception

Speaker 52 and having that all come to light, obviously truth and transparency has to be a bedrock of a new foundation after you face that.

Speaker 54 The other piece that I had to face was the fact that certain things I tried to not say. And at one point, this one here looked at me and said, do not lie to me anymore.
He lied to us enough.

Speaker 54 And it's our turn to be able to make choices on if we're going to show up to something or do something. Do not lie to me like he did.
So I said, you have my word from here on out, no more.

Speaker 45 Andrea, I want to talk a little bit about institutional courage, which we as a production team encountered this term this year, and we've seen it in both of these families.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, family is an institution,

Speaker 1 and it takes courage to lead with truth and transparency to make sure these things don't happen in the future.

Speaker 1 And so I think By you guys sharing and knowing what was actually happening so you can make your own choices, that takes institutional courage.

Speaker 1 And, you know, obviously, there's the CSPD of it all.

Speaker 1 There are a lot of people inside CSPD that has known what Joel has been doing for a really long time, but were too afraid to speak out because they didn't want to throw a name out there and have backlash.

Speaker 1 So, I mean, it takes courage to come forward, but what's happening and what we researched at CSPD is that's not happening.

Speaker 1 And so, hopefully, by bringing awareness of what's going on with the misconduct, someone will do the right thing.

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Speaker 1 Welcome back. We're sharing the audio from our first ever Betrayal live show.

Speaker 1 We're talking with Stacey, Tyler, and Michaela from Betrayal Season 3, and Caroline Berega with her two kids from season four. One of our Betrayal producers, Monique, moderated the event.

Speaker 44 So I'll throw it back to her.

Speaker 45 All right, so I want to transition to talking as a big group. And I want to start just by talking about what it's like to be in person together.

Speaker 45 This was a little experiment that we were asked to participate in, and we didn't know how it would go. So what has it it been like?

Speaker 45 You know, you've had very different experiences, but you've also had a core similarity.

Speaker 54 I can tell you that after the first episode aired, I received an email from one of the producers who said, hey, Stacey wants to talk to you and she's asking if we can share your information.

Speaker 54 Is that okay? And I said, sure.

Speaker 54 And

Speaker 54 fast friends and sisterhood in this

Speaker 54 camaraderie in this crazy ass way and it was like trial by fire and she was like don't do X Y and Z don't read X Y and Z do this

Speaker 54 and

Speaker 54 it's been I felt like I knew her before we even stepped on the ship it's been incredible and I'm very grateful for you yeah I feel the same way we you know we've had a bond that I think we'll always you know we'll always have.

Speaker 44 I'm sure Ashley and Jen and all of them feel the same way. There's a lot of these, get this shit text message.

Speaker 44 You know, and you can't make this up, like, you know, especially with a lawsuit, you know. I was like, oh my God, girl, get this.

Speaker 44 But yeah,

Speaker 44 it's been incredible. And we've made some really great, great memories on this trip.
And

Speaker 44 just really incredible people.

Speaker 45 What's it been like for you, Dre, to see everyone come together and also meet listeners?

Speaker 1 I I think it was you who mentioned we should do it like a retreat or like a girls' weekend and I was like, hell yeah.

Speaker 1 But then this came about like a few weeks later. So maybe this is a trial run.

Speaker 1 And it's actually really great because you understand betrayal, you understand deception and how

Speaker 1 That can really fundamentally change your sense of reality and make you question yourself and the decisions that you made, especially in moments of survival and just trying to get through the next day.

Speaker 1 Like, I just need to wake up, get my clothes on, and get out the door. And those little things you guys can relate to on a very, you know, specific level.

Speaker 62 And so I knew you guys would hit it off.

Speaker 1 This has been such a joy.

Speaker 1 And I think it's just a testament to our community and it growing.

Speaker 44 It was either going to be this or we were going to crash Andrea's wedding. I I was like, I don't know if you know, but I'm coming.

Speaker 44 Even if I got to sit at a little table outside and just peek in.

Speaker 44 She was like, oh no, we're having a whole betrayal table.

Speaker 54 We are.

Speaker 45 I want to talk about the experience of actually living through what y'all have been through versus the product that we see at the end.

Speaker 45 The, you know, what is it, in total, five hours of audio or three hours of video. That is so different from what you actually lived through.

Speaker 45 And so I want to open it up to y'all to talk about what was a surprise to you and what was difficult to see or maybe really rewarding to see,

Speaker 45 but a little bit more about what it was like to see the things you had really gone through turned into

Speaker 45 a true crime podcast, a true crime docuseries.

Speaker 47 I think I could start with that. It actually wasn't too bad because I have to be honest, nothing beats actually living through it.
So it's almost like you're a little desensitized.

Speaker 47 But I think the hardest part for me was the recreation of the scene where Tyler tried to kill himself.

Speaker 47 He had called me at the time and I was two and a half hours away.

Speaker 47 And so like watching the reenactment, which I am well aware was dramatized and there was actors, but like just feeling that again, that I could have lost him, that really messed with me for a little bit.

Speaker 44 I think for us, it was

Speaker 44 an incredibly healing experience that I don't think we realized was going to be what it was.

Speaker 44 Even when we watched it or listened to the week's episode, because like I said, it's almost like you're listening to someone else's story, even though it is yours.

Speaker 44 And we would just sit down afterwards and we'd be like, that is crazy, these questions that they think of that just would get you thinking of things.

Speaker 44 And then we would go on these almost therapy sessions, you know, our car rides home, because we went up to Pennsylvania to film. It was about a three-hour drive.

Speaker 44 These three hour car rides, we would spend having like our own little therapy session. You know, so for us,

Speaker 44 you know, we're incredibly thankful to you because I think healing started with betrayal.

Speaker 44 So, you know, you may not have thought that it was going to do anything or one people or two people was going to listen to it, but I can tell you that it's been instrumental in all of our healing completely.

Speaker 44 I don't know, you know, you probably feel the same way.

Speaker 61 Absolutely.

Speaker 45 Has participating in betrayal in this production changed the way you think about true crime content?

Speaker 45 Like when you go to consume a podcast, watch a podcast, watch a podcast, listen to a podcast, or watch something? Has it changed the way you approach that and think about it?

Speaker 47 I know for me, it definitely has.

Speaker 47 I grew up watching Dateline, 2020,

Speaker 47 True Crime. Mom's been joking all weekend, or well, however many days we are now in.

Speaker 47 But she's been joking this whole time, like, you know, oh, kids watch Barney, Michaela's watching Dateline.

Speaker 44 She wanted to be Keith Morrison, baby doll.

Speaker 48 Yeah.

Speaker 54 So,

Speaker 47 you know, growing up up as a teen, early 20s, all that, you know, I watch these true crime documentaries and I'm like, oh, come the fuck on. Like, you knew.
Like, don't get out of here.

Speaker 47 And I would judge. Now I wouldn't go to social media and talk about it, but I would think that.
And then as this started to unravel, I was like, oh my God. people are thinking that about me.

Speaker 47 And so now when I watch true crime documentaries or listen to podcasts, like I have, my mindset is so different because

Speaker 47 in reality, you guys only get, you know, this tiny little sliver of what happened. And on top of that, like you're getting all the information, you know, detectives, policemen,

Speaker 47 judges. you know,

Speaker 47 the whole family, like everybody's giving stories, but we didn't have that, you know.

Speaker 47 We were day by day figuring it out.

Speaker 47 And so now, like, when I watch these shows,

Speaker 47 I have to remember, like, they probably didn't know. They didn't have all this ready-made, you know, little craft mac and cheese cup ready for them.

Speaker 47 You know, they had to go out and make the noodles. And so I think it's just really changed so much of like how I view other true crime docuseries.

Speaker 1 One of the questions I get a lot are, were there really any red flags? And a huge part about our project is really explaining that there often are none because perpetrators like Justin, Joel,

Speaker 1 really good at hiding who they really are.

Speaker 1 And so I think when audiences watch true crime and they have those thoughts, Michaela, I think it's a form of safety.

Speaker 1 Like, I would see that if it happened to me. And that's often not the case.
And that's why we are so open about not knowing because you didn't. And why would you even think that

Speaker 1 your husband could do what he did? Why would your brain go there? So that's a huge part about betrayal.

Speaker 44 Ashley put it really good in hers and it became so clear to me when she said it.

Speaker 44 She said, you know, it's like this puzzle and you have all these pieces and in 2015 you might have got this red flag then in 2017 you might have got this and when you're taking it over a course of the you know just and i were together seven years

Speaker 44 i don't think you didn't think back to something like oh let me put it together with that red flag you know let me start collecting the flags you know when it when you get to the end then you're like oh and then the puzzle it it becomes clear.

Speaker 44 It becomes a puzzle. But, you know, in this moment, you have a blue piece and a red piece and a yellow piece and nothing matches.

Speaker 44 And then they start to make you think that you're crazy for feeling this way. And I know for me,

Speaker 44 Justin would, you know, do things to me like, if there was something I was bothered by, you know, by him, it would just be like, well, you know,

Speaker 44 if that's the kind of husband you think I am, maybe we should get divorced. And for anyone who knew me personally, being a wife was something I took pride in.
I took pride in being a good wife.

Speaker 44 I loved being a good wife.

Speaker 44 And when he would say those things to me, instantly I would kind of crawl inside myself and think, you are a terrible, terrible wife.

Speaker 44 How can you think this about this man who's great to your kids, provided a good home to you, gave you this life?

Speaker 44 And so he would take that and manipulate it. So there's so much more than just, oh, well, you know, you missed red flags.
Well, yeah, there's red flags now.

Speaker 44 Now that you've told me, I mean, like, you know, I look at photos now that when I took them, I was just like, oh, these are such sweet moments, and they make me sick now because I see them in a different way.

Speaker 44 It was, that was probably one of the hardest things for the documentary was to see the photos of him and Tyler hugged up together that I used to think were sweet moments of just a man loving my kids, you know, like a father should,

Speaker 44 to now realizing how disgusting they were.

Speaker 44 So it's, it's, you know, you have to give a little bit of grace, I think.

Speaker 44 I'm the same way with Michaela is now, you know, I've run my mouth, I don't know how many times, and now if I'm watching TV, you know, a documentary and I'm like,

Speaker 44 and then I like sit back and I'm like, wait a minute, you know, I don't know her story. I don't know his story, you know.

Speaker 44 So I think we got to give people a little bit of grace and realize that in these moments when you're trying to navigate, you know, there's like Caroline said, there's a part of my story no one knows as well that I wasn't really allowed to share and I don't give a shit about sharing it right now,

Speaker 44 is I was also sued civilly by the boy's parents who found the camera. So while this was all going on, you know, civil attorney, criminal attorney, divorce attorney, I lost my home.

Speaker 44 You know, and you're literally just going from one thing to another every day of trying to put out fires and make sure that your children are still eating and not just only Pop-Tarts.

Speaker 44 You know, I mean, it's the truth. You just cannot, you make the best decision you can at the moment.
And did I screw up? Yeah.

Speaker 54 I can tell you that first year was autopilot, just absolute autopilot. I just wanted to get by.

Speaker 54 And,

Speaker 54 you know, anyone who's posted anything on Reddit or anything else, you can't beat me up any more than I beat up myself. I have questioned myself.

Speaker 54 I question everything about every decision I ever made.

Speaker 54 You know, there's an episode called, it's essentially the split screen episode, Revisionist History. And you hear my entire 25-year relationship with my ex-husband in the span of 38 minutes.

Speaker 54 And I tell you every single thing now in those 38 minutes that now I have a concern about. And I question all the time.
And I did that for that first year. And you don't really know.

Speaker 54 It's like the analogy of the frog in the pot. You don't know that it's boiling until you're out.
And I can see that it's boiling now that I'm out

Speaker 45 I want to talk a little bit more about survival mode with with you Dre because that's something we talk about all the time and

Speaker 45 really trying to understand and tell these kind of stories we often have to tell the story of that we have to tell that story of the survival mode year and all the choices that were made in that year but it is so difficult to convey that experience that you all had we can't make a year-long podcast we can't really be in your head.

Speaker 45 But can you talk about like the survival brain, the logic brain, and the ways that

Speaker 45 we try to make content that helps people understand that survival mode?

Speaker 1 I think one of the first questions I asked you, Stacey, when I came to visit you was like,

Speaker 1 when you would wake up in the morning after everything happened, like what was your first thought?

Speaker 1 Because when something horrible happens and your life is falling apart, just opening your eyes and realizing, no, I'm actually here. This is actually happening.
This is my real life.

Speaker 1 And I now have to get up and face the day. And so that's, I remember talking to you about that.

Speaker 1 And I think it is important to give people grace.

Speaker 1 and know that when this happens, they are literally just trying to get through their day and make a ton of decisions legally, financially, groceries on the table. Like it is really hard.

Speaker 1 And then with space, and if you work at it and you see a psychologist and you have your community and your family, you can slowly transition into the analytical brain and really

Speaker 1 sit with what happened. think through how it's occurring for you.

Speaker 1 And we just want to show our audience that those are two different experiences and that the majority of these individuals are living in survival mode for

Speaker 1 a year, two years, you know? And then with time

Speaker 1 and healing, you can look back and really start to process. But those are two different states of mind.

Speaker 44 Oh, yeah. I mean, you wake up and it's just, you know, life doesn't stop.
Your bills don't stop. Your work doesn't stop.

Speaker 44 You know, so you're navigating all this stuff while still having to make sound, rational decisions.

Speaker 44 And you open your eyes and you're like, Jesus, another, you know, like it's another day. And all you do is try to get through to get to bed that night.

Speaker 44 You know, I just, if I can make it to bed, if I can just make it to, you know, where I can go to sleep, I'll just go to sleep and I'll wake up and it'll be different tomorrow.

Speaker 44 And then you wake up and it's another day. And it's just, yeah, it's just, but it's a, it's a vicious cycle.
And living in that survivor moment, you know, you don't make the greatest of decisions.

Speaker 44 I mean, you just can't. You can't.
You do the best you can with what you have at the moment.

Speaker 45 I think that's one thing that makes the online comments feel so

Speaker 45 unfair and so hard for us. We have to track them as part of our job, is that we're tracking the comments we get.
And some of them are so personal and so vitriolic.

Speaker 45 And I think obviously it says more about the commenter than any of y'all.

Speaker 45 So, you know, I'm curious how you handle that, because I think that would make me short-circuit.

Speaker 47 At this point, we make it a joke, but like, somebody at one point made a comment at one, like, on, I don't know, TikTok or something, and said, like, oh, that sister of his, she's just so conceited.

Speaker 47 And, you know, she thinks like she's the shit. And I was like, well, first, you know, yeah, I'm confident.

Speaker 47 But secondly, like,

Speaker 47 okay, okay,

Speaker 47 you know, not trying to sound ridiculous, but if I was so conceited and, you know, didn't care about my brother, he wouldn't have gotten a whole arm tattoo for me.

Speaker 47 So good for you that you thought that.

Speaker 44 We'll send each other messages. I'll be like, how you doing today, you conceited bitch.

Speaker 22 Yeah.

Speaker 45 So, you know, now it's like we just turn them into jokes.

Speaker 47 And it's just a way to, you know, just laugh about it because, you know, hurt people hurt people.

Speaker 47 And it's nothing we can do. I can't help them.

Speaker 47 But instead, we can just laugh about it. And I know Tyler and I even made a whole TikTok video addressing a lot of the questions and mean comments that we were getting specifically about our mom.

Speaker 47 And I think that helped a lot.

Speaker 46 clear up a lot of things.

Speaker 51 Really, about 95% of the comments on like the stuff I make are pretty positive and then there's like the five percent like troll but to be honest about 85 90 percent of the time that troll has about third grade grammar or you can tell they didn't finish the show because they don't know shit about what's going on and they're just saying whatever so uh i just kind of ignore the trolls um if it's something that bad i'll delete the comment like if it's on my own stuff just because i don't want like other survivors to see that them to be discouraged but me myself i just tell them you know you can go fuck yourself.

Speaker 22 That's me.

Speaker 51 I don't care.

Speaker 44 Yeah,

Speaker 44 we have a lot of, I don't know if y'all noticed, we have a lot of dark humor.

Speaker 44 Humor is what carried us through a lot of this. Some people are uncomfortable with that.

Speaker 46 But

Speaker 44 the comments on the podcast really, really got me. And I decided when the documentary was going to come out,

Speaker 44 that if I had to be the martyr, you know, in this, and if people had to hate me for his story to get out and for his healing to come that I was okay taking that

Speaker 44 and that I really didn't give a shit because I know my truth and and you know, we have an incredible relationship

Speaker 44 You know, I know Caroline got a lot of shit about you know telling her children.

Speaker 44 I think it was out you know noble that you made it a point not to lie to your children We have to be honest with our children. We have to tell our children things that hard things

Speaker 44 I know I question myself a lot. Did I tell, did I talk about hard things with my children when they were little of, you know, that people can do these kinds of things to you.

Speaker 44 So I was incredibly proud of you for telling your children and being truthful. I know I had a lot of people with my littles

Speaker 44 that was just like, just tell him he died. I'm like, I wish he would die.

Speaker 44 I wish that was the truth.

Speaker 44 But it's not the truth and I'm not going to lie to them. You know, I tell them in little bits, but,

Speaker 44 you know,

Speaker 44 going back to the comments, but at the end of the day, yeah, you just have to

Speaker 44 have to separate that. But our way of dealing with that is joking.

Speaker 22 And

Speaker 44 we can be pretty nasty.

Speaker 44 Like Tyler said, we're like, they're probably in their mom's basement in a beanbag chair eating Cheetos.

Speaker 44 You know, like, we just have to, you just have to do it. It is what it is.

Speaker 54 Yeah, I didn't listen to their advice. And,

Speaker 54 you know, some of the things that were said, it's just very evident that there's a lot of people who clearly have read a manual that I haven't.

Speaker 54 I mean, whatever the title of that book is that says, hey, when your high-ranking police officer husband blows up your lives and reporters are getting ready to come to your door and then he moves out to the family RV, loses his job and relocates, here's what you should do.

Speaker 22 I didn't have that bad.

Speaker 61 I didn't have a mobile that carries that.

Speaker 54 Amazon Prime. So I didn't have that.
and I, you know, had to make decisions quickly financially, personally, emotionally. I had to make decisions as a parent and I was doing the best I could with it.

Speaker 54 I didn't have a three and four year old so this wasn't like I could somehow make a story up and you know discuss it like the tooth carrier or Santa about why dad didn't live with us anymore.

Speaker 54 He was no longer a police officer and that we were preparing for reporters to show up at the door.

Speaker 54 I didn't have the ability to be able to make something up and lie to them or tell a story or dance around it.

Speaker 58 I had to be very direct, very, very, very direct.

Speaker 54 And that's something that was difficult. It was hard.
It wasn't easy for me by any stretch of the means. And it wasn't easy to have these really blunt discussions with my kids.

Speaker 54 And I will tell you on a different note, you know, we do cope with dark humor.

Speaker 54 My son and I were golfing not too long ago before we came on the cruise.

Speaker 54 He just hit this ball a country mile and it just was gone. And he was like, yep, that ball left me like my dad.

Speaker 54 So, I mean,

Speaker 54 we say sideways stuff all the time, and that's how we cope with it. And that's really dark for a lot of people and hard for people to hear, but it's what we do.

Speaker 54 And, you know, there are a lot of things that occurred in our lives where it was so hard to have these tough discussions with them, but we had to have the discussions in order for us to get through.

Speaker 54 And having them both say, do not lie to me. If something's going on, prepare us.
Do not lie to me. It was hard.
It wasn't easy.

Speaker 54 It was not something that I would wish on anyone. So, you know, for those of you or anyone who you know who does have that manual,

Speaker 54 tell them I'm proud of them. And I'm so grateful that they're able to navigate it a lot better than I did.
I did the best I could.

Speaker 54 And the other thing I'll say about it is that there and some of the comments, people were like, I am horrified, you know, that she had this discussion with her kids.

Speaker 54 I'm horrified I had to have the discussion with my kids.

Speaker 44 Let's be horrified at the people who did the crime. Yep.

Speaker 4 I want to, you know, let's be horrified at them.

Speaker 54 And I do want to say that.

Speaker 54 That, you know, Stacey saying that, I do want to say the part that makes me so sad about some of those comments and some of the feedback that I've received from women who have thanked me for us telling our stories is that it's comments like those that keep people silent.

Speaker 47 Yeah.

Speaker 54 So you are a part of the problem and you are damning the solution.

Speaker 22 I like that.

Speaker 57 Yeah.

Speaker 45 What advice would y'all give to someone who was considering

Speaker 45 becoming the subject of a true crime podcast? Don't read the comments.

Speaker 47 I would have to say, don't be afraid.

Speaker 47 As I started seeing messages that Tyler was getting and I was getting and mom was getting and the betrayal podcast were getting. You know, I'm like, wow,

Speaker 47 if we all would have lived in fear, these people may not have ever had that and may not have ever come forward, may not have ever said their peace. And that's really sad.

Speaker 47 And so don't be afraid. Tell your story.
Scream it from the mountaintops. You know, it's better to do it that way instead of live in fear.

Speaker 51 People might say stuff online, but like I said, that's like the very odd select few. I can tell you, not a damn person

Speaker 51 face-to-face has made fun of me for what has happened to me. And I don't think anybody has the balls to

Speaker 51 because they know that's not right.

Speaker 51 So, really, I don't think that's something you have to worry about.

Speaker 1 Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to finish the conversation.

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Speaker 53 I remember reading one when I was younger that completely changed me. Years later, I found myself thinking about that book again.
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Speaker 45 We wanted to take some audience questions. Are there any audience questions?

Speaker 45 We have a few that have been brought in.

Speaker 22 Oh, we have one.

Speaker 26 Yes.

Speaker 55 So this is more for Carolyn. I listened to the whole podcast, and CSPD

Speaker 34 is probably the second biggest betrayal.

Speaker 55 How can they get away with it?

Speaker 63 And it's not just Joel, it's the other people in the department. and they came forward with it and they still

Speaker 54 I mean how it got to the point where he was able to retire even how do you even get past that I wish I had a solid answer for that and I I looked over at Andrea when I when you were asking that question

Speaker 54 there's so much more to the story that you would just fall out if you knew

Speaker 54 I can tell you One of the scariest things on the internal affairs tapes without broaching legal concern is that a very, very high-ranking female in the police department actually

Speaker 54 turned my ex-husband in for sexual harassment

Speaker 45 and nothing was done.

Speaker 54 It's sickening to hear. It's really, really sad.

Speaker 55 We can move to any place we want in the country. That's one place we would never move to.

Speaker 54 It is beautiful, though.

Speaker 44 Hi, I have a question for Stacey.

Speaker 44 How has your definition of trust changed? I trust very few. I work on that a lot.
I know that I have a really filthy mouth. I call myself a spicy Christian.
I love Jesus, but I cuss.

Speaker 44 And it's the truth. It's something that I think I have had to pray about because I don't trust people.

Speaker 44 And it's really hard for me because I am such a trust. I was such a trusting person, but, you know, when people tell me things, most of the time I'm like,

Speaker 22 you're lying.

Speaker 44 or you know I always kind of think like what next you know I analyze kind of what people say and stuff

Speaker 44 it's hard it's hard to ever trust somebody again I mean you lay next to somebody for seven years that you think you know and you roll over one day and they're completely someone that you had you had no idea you know so it's it's hard I think someday there'll be somebody that'll come along maybe you know I pray for money instead of a husband these days I really would just rather have money so I can go on cruises.

Speaker 44 Woo!

Speaker 44 But yeah, you know, it's a daily task to work on.

Speaker 44 Hi, first of all, I want to say thank you for coming out here and sharing your story. It's very, very courageous.

Speaker 44 But I wanted to ask the siblings, so being so young and naive to how evil people can be,

Speaker 44 Have you ever been guilt tripped for cutting your father off or no longer speaking to your father? Has anybody ever said, oh, give him a second chance, your father, etc., etc.

Speaker 52 Only in the comments of Spotify.

Speaker 56 Yeah, I think like what people don't realize is like our dad was a funny human being and we like being around him.

Speaker 56 So when it first all happened, like my brother and I were calling him up and asking all these sorts of questions.

Speaker 56 And then it came to the point where like he didn't come to my high school graduation, and he didn't come to this and that, and this.

Speaker 56 So, I was like, if he wasn't going to come to the big events, he's not going to come to the daily events. And so, then it's like, why worth trying?

Speaker 10 Hi, this is for Stacey.

Speaker 22 This is not really a question, it's more of a comment. I just want to tell you that I think you are amazing mother.
My mom did not believe me,

Speaker 22 and when I watched the episode, I was screaming at the TV because I was like yes mama yes you go so I just want to tell you thank you thank you for being with you

Speaker 44 thank you for that thank you for that I appreciate that

Speaker 44 Yeah, I can't imagine not believing my children. I mean, people gave me shit online like what took her so long to leave? I was like, shit, it happened on a Saturday.
I filed for divorce on Tuesday.

Speaker 44 Like with no proof. No, the abuse had not even come out.
He had not even come forward yet. And I was just like, that's some whack ass shit.
That's not happening in my house. We can file for divorce.

Speaker 44 It was three days that I was just like, I was willing to give everything up. But it was never about the money.
It was never about the nice house we lived in.

Speaker 44 I didn't give a crap if you worked at Sheets. Yeah, you know, it was three days before I was just like, you know, I'm believing what I'm being shown right now.

Speaker 45 You know, yeah.

Speaker 45 Well, our time is over, and I wish we could stay talking in front of this group because it feels really, really wonderful to be here and to have this out in the public. It feels really special.

Speaker 1 Yeah, thank you guys for coming. This show means so much to everyone here on stage, and it's been a joy.
So, thank you so much for coming.

Speaker 11 Thank you.

Speaker 52 Thank you guys.

Speaker 1 Thank you for listening. A special thank you to the listeners who came with us on the cruise.
Meeting all of you was such a delight. Thank you to iHeart and Virgin Voyages.

Speaker 1 And as always, thank you to our storytellers.

Speaker 1 On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly.

Speaker 64 This was my best friend. This was somebody who was in my house every single day.
This is somebody who I told all my secrets to.

Speaker 64 She did this because she wanted to.

Speaker 64 She did this because she likes to manipulate. She did this because she likes the control.

Speaker 1 If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That's betrayalpod at gmail.com.

Speaker 1 Or follow us on Instagram at betrayalpod. You can also connect with me on Instagram at it's Andrea Gunning.

Speaker 1 To access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the betrayal community, join our substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support.

Speaker 1 One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.

Speaker 1 Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.

Speaker 1 Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Monique Laborde.
Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Caitlin Golden, Olivia Hewitt, and Kristen Mel Curie.

Speaker 1 Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck.
Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins.

Speaker 1 Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIBE Music.

Speaker 1 And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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