S3: E4 – Him or Me

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Speaker 16 I remember sitting there crying, and I was like, This child who you called yours, this is the child that you loved so much, and you want him burned in a barrel? How disgusting!

Speaker 1 I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal Season 3, Episode 4.

Speaker 1 Him or me?

Speaker 1 Dr. Justin Rutherford never expected to be incarcerated.
He seemed genuinely surprised to be in jail. Stacy and her family had moved back to the Virginia area to be closer to family and friends.

Speaker 1 Justin's godmother, Nanny Dee, had done the same. He wrote frequent letters to Nanny.
She looked after him as a child and had always been there for him as an adult.

Speaker 1 She did not believe the accusations against him. He shared his complaints with her about the lack of amenities in jail.

Speaker 6 The only chairs here are hard, as well as the beds. And this is probably TMI, but the diet they give us caused me the worst constipation.
It really makes things terrible.

Speaker 1 Once Tyler came forward, the Berks County District Attorney's Office was able to build a strong case against Justin. There was a good chance he could be sentenced to decades in jail.

Speaker 1 And that was largely because of what Tyler was able to share during his forensic interview.

Speaker 17 I don't remember if it was Detective Fick or Weaver.

Speaker 17 One of them I had spoken to, and they said they were so proud of Tyler because they had never seen a child or heard a child give such a detailed interview as far as how much information he recalled.

Speaker 1 As the trial date drew closer, Justin's letters to family and friends grew more frenzied.

Speaker 6 Nanny, call around to some of the lawyers below. Explain my charges and deal that was offered, which is basically 15 to 30 or open plea.
See if they think they could do better.

Speaker 6 and see if they would do pro bono or reduced fee due to money already spent on current lawyer.

Speaker 1 Justin's father had an adopted daughter. Justin wrote to her.

Speaker 6 It's been a while since we have spoken. I miss you and the fam so much.
I feel like we were the closest and you came to visit regularly.

Speaker 6 I am curious what you think of all of this shit.

Speaker 6 This is a compliment. You were

Speaker 6 always the um shadiest in our group of siblings

Speaker 6 and I was wondering if you still have contacts into the shady realm. Send me the answer through text on the tablet, but don't mention the question as everything is recorded through text and phone.

Speaker 6 If the answer is yes, I will send you another letter with more info. Please, keep this between us.
Please.

Speaker 6 On the contrary, if you think I'm a piece of shit who deserves to be here, just ignore this letter.

Speaker 1 She ignored it. Nanny, however, stayed in regular contact with Justin, and he sent her many letters from jail like this.

Speaker 6 I can't. live life knowing I won't be able to be with my kids until they are adults, that I was a failure, and not given a chance at redemption.

Speaker 6 And honestly, if it comes down to it, I guess

Speaker 6 I'll have to take the pain away myself.

Speaker 6 I don't want it to end that way,

Speaker 6 but I literally can't do it. I'm not strong enough to serve so long.

Speaker 1 Justin was doing anything he could to get out of the Berks County jail where he was awaiting trial. Tyler was in a kind of jail as well.

Speaker 1 A jail that Justin had built.

Speaker 18 When the abuse was going on, that was just my normal day-to-day life.

Speaker 18 I didn't think much of it. It was just how things went and it was expected to happen.

Speaker 18 It wasn't a shock.

Speaker 18 I was used to it. I was trained.

Speaker 18 And I'd finally had time to like deal with all those emotions away from Justin.

Speaker 18 It was like my first time actually trying to get through it all instead of just like be numbed to it or whatnot.

Speaker 18 All the emotions,

Speaker 18 they just flood into your mind, flood into your body.

Speaker 18 It's just overwhelming, overstimulating. Anything is going to set you off.
It's like you have a short fuse.

Speaker 18 At least it was for me.

Speaker 1 Stacey wanted to do something nice for the kids, to get away from the whole mess at home. So she took them to Disney World.

Speaker 1 It's called the happiest place on earth. But for Tyler, it was anything but.

Speaker 18 Everyone smiled on their faces. And like in my head, it was a completely different atmosphere.
It was like I was in a different spot.

Speaker 18 Like Stranger Things, how they have the upside down. That's where I was.

Speaker 18 I mean, I was in the same place, but in my mind, I was in a different atmosphere.

Speaker 18 A few nights I was just sitting on the balcony by myself while everyone was inside.

Speaker 18 I just wanted to jump

Speaker 18 because we were about like four or five stories up. Like I didn't really want to but I guess I just I didn't see another way to stop the anxiety.
It was so bad.

Speaker 18 That was just like a way to switch it off and no going back.

Speaker 1 At Disney, Tyler Tyler started fearing for his little brother and sister.

Speaker 1 The lines, throngs of people everywhere, he still carries that with him.

Speaker 18 I just, I worry with the littles being in public. I hate when they run off.
I don't like them being more than like a foot from me, but I just, I just worry so much.

Speaker 18 I don't know if it's fear of them getting hurt, fear of somebody taking them, but when they're in public, I want them to be raped by either me or my mom's side and nowhere else.

Speaker 1 He appreciated his mom trying to show the kids a good time after all they'd been through. But the anxiety was unrelenting, punishing.
It followed Tyler when he was awake, asleep. It didn't matter.

Speaker 1 Tyler had a great therapist, but that weekly meeting was no match for the pervasive thoughts that plagued him 24-7.

Speaker 18 I definitely struggled with both depression and anxiety, but to me,

Speaker 18 anxiety was my killer.

Speaker 18 It just seemed like there was no way to get by it.

Speaker 18 This was about a week after the Disney trip. I was at school.
It was just a normal day. And I started to have some pretty bad anxiety.
I would say more so like a panic attack.

Speaker 18 Like my heart was beating really fast and the thoughts were just going left and right in my head going crazy. And I just, I couldn't shake it no matter what I did.
It was terrible.

Speaker 18 It lasted all the way until I got back home. I'm like, damn it, I'm 10 hours into this.
And it's just getting worse and worse.

Speaker 18 So I decided I was going to take matters into my own hands that day. I wanted to kill myself, but I didn't want my family to know I tried to do that or hurt them.
So.

Speaker 18 I tried to make it look natural like a heart attack and down like a whole tub of pre-workout gym energy drinks and whatnot. You're usually supposed to take like a scoop.

Speaker 18 Like two scoops is too much, and your heart's going crazy. So I wouldn't say I downed the whole tub, but I definitely tried to down as much as I could in a short period of time.

Speaker 18 And that just made it even worse to the point where it literally felt like my heart was gonna come out of my chest.

Speaker 18 Like I thought I was dying. So I called my sister.

Speaker 6 I got the phone call.

Speaker 19 It was a FaceTime video from him. He's crying and he's like, I'm scared.
My chest feels funny. And

Speaker 19 he's like, I took something.

Speaker 19 I made him stay on the phone with me. And

Speaker 19 EMS got there.

Speaker 1 Mom got there.

Speaker 18 They sent the paramedics. They said I was all right.

Speaker 18 I would just have a very fast heart rate for a while. It was all the caffeine.

Speaker 17 They took him to the hospital.

Speaker 19 and then that's when he got admitted.

Speaker 1 Tyler was admitted into a mental health facility in Virginia with a reputable youth program.

Speaker 17 Not only did Justin ruin his childhood,

Speaker 17 but now he doesn't even want to live on this earth.

Speaker 1 I felt like he had took enough from him

Speaker 17 and I think that's what made me angry, is he knew how much my kids meant to me.

Speaker 17 If Tyler would have died, I say I probably would have just jumped with him

Speaker 1 because I don't know how parents live without their kids.

Speaker 18 I stayed there for I think about eight days and the whole time just went through therapy.

Speaker 1 The inpatient program gave him helpful strategies to deal with his anxiety.

Speaker 18 They gave us a bunch of like papers and handouts to keep. They had like good coping mechanisms on there.

Speaker 18 I kept that paper and took it with me wherever I went.

Speaker 1 Tyler recognized his treatment as an opportunity.

Speaker 18 You just got to want it because there's definitely kids in there who didn't want it and therefore it didn't help them like it did me.

Speaker 18 Like I know a kid who said he'd been in and out of them for like six years and then after you go so many times They make you stay longer and longer and he was telling me his last stay in one was like nine months

Speaker 18 So I saw that and took that as a sign that I need to learn what I need to learn and get out of here and go live my life.

Speaker 1 Tyler was determined to make strides in his mental health. He didn't want this to be the rest of his life.

Speaker 18 I honestly thought it was like a good break from life. Like I actually enjoyed it because it was just calm and it helped teach me a lot.

Speaker 1 Tyler told me that he still has some rough patches and weeks of feeling bad, but he's he's doing much better and suicide doesn't enter his mind anymore.

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Speaker 1 Stacy and Tyler had a lot of dates to deal with. meetings with prosecutors and court appearances.

Speaker 1 A few months after Tyler finished his treatment and about two years after Justin was arrested, there was a special day Stacy's whole family was looking forward to.

Speaker 1 The August 2023 wedding of Stacy's eldest daughter, Michaela, to her longtime boyfriend Tommy. There was a lot of joy leading up to the wedding, but it was also a time of reflection.

Speaker 1 Justin's absence was deeply felt. Even with the knowledge of his crimes, Michaela was like his daughter.
She called Justin dad.

Speaker 1 She felt cheated.

Speaker 19 For Father's Day one year, I said, when I'm old enough and find the right man who loves me the way that you do,

Speaker 19 will you walk me down the aisle?

Speaker 19 Some nights we would be planning and I would cry.

Speaker 17 It's like a missing piece, but also like, I don't want that piece here.

Speaker 1 Michaela walked a fine line between feeling excitement for her big day and respecting the grief around her.

Speaker 19 It was hard for me to be truly happy with it, like, oh, I'm getting married, because everyone around me is miserable. And here I am, like,

Speaker 19 oh, what color do you want to wear to my wedding?

Speaker 1 When the day finally came, the whole family rose to the occasion. Just talking about it makes Stacey emotional.

Speaker 16 Michaela's wedding was beautiful in August.

Speaker 16 There was so much joy that day. And that was a day that was going to be really hard for me that ended up not

Speaker 6 at all.

Speaker 16 Like, and that was i can 100 say a god thing because

Speaker 1 you know it just it was a beautiful day they were all dressed beautifully they danced michaela and tommy are a great couple it was a celebration of them of family of survival of making it this far

Speaker 16 for a window of a weekend i think we just forgot about things

Speaker 16 Like I would have just loved to live in that weekend of Michaela's wedding because that was our first time where we just had fun.

Speaker 16 We didn't think about it. We didn't talk about it.
Like, today's a day of being joyful and new beginnings. And there's a lot missing that day, but there was also so much more.

Speaker 1 While the family reveled in a new chapter of love, Justin continued stewing in jail.

Speaker 1 A trial was just months away now. He knew he couldn't stay there.
He organized his thoughts and came up with three strategies to avoid prison. Options one, two, and three.

Speaker 1 Option one had been mentioned in his letters with both Stacy and Nanny. The option was suicide, though Stacy didn't fall for Justin's threats to take his life.
It probably hurt Nanny much more.

Speaker 1 Option two was mentioned, but still vague. We'll return to that later.
And then there was option three, persuading Tyler to recant his statement to detectives.

Speaker 6 Dear nanny,

Speaker 6 thank you for trying option three.

Speaker 6 If you could please try to continue to push for him to drop it.

Speaker 6 Here's why I can't go to trial. And they say there's too much evidence.

Speaker 6 It is true that I did the camera. I have an issue with voyeurism.
It's true.

Speaker 6 Please keep this to yourself.

Speaker 1 Finally, an admission that he did put the camera camera in the house.

Speaker 6 The camera is basically what screwed me because there is no evidence otherwise for the rape charges. I do swear to you, Nanny, that I never raped anyone.

Speaker 6 So basically, I should be serving maybe a year for my true crimes, but instead may end up serving much more.

Speaker 6 I'm not gonna lie. I got myself in a pickle.
But please, don't let me serve time that is unjust.

Speaker 1 This is hard to stomach. I got myself in a pickle is something you say when you make plans with two different friends on the same night.
Not a phrase when you use to describe these kinds of charges.

Speaker 1 He continues.

Speaker 6 I would be institutionalized and have no way to ever retire. It's literally the worst ending to my life I could imagine.

Speaker 6 Please keep trying option three, because we're approaching the line of no return.

Speaker 6 Love Justin.

Speaker 1 Sergeant Fick found the relationship between Nanny D and Justin puzzling.

Speaker 22 I listened to a lot of jailhouse calls from her and Justin.

Speaker 1 Their communication did not sound like an aunt and nephew or godmother and godson.

Speaker 22 I mean, there's times they talk like they're husband and wife.

Speaker 22 I was confused by that. I know she supports Justin.
He has a lot of people fooling his family.

Speaker 1 Meg McCallum, the lead assistant district attorney of Berks County, was busy preparing for trial. She was assigned to prosecute the case.

Speaker 20 I have been specifically doing sexual assault prosecution for 10 and a half years now.

Speaker 20 When it comes forward, these families are devastated because unfortunately, nine times out of ten, what we are seeing is that it was somebody very close, if not a family member, who has committed these crimes against these children.

Speaker 20 It is hard because there's that part of them that you love, that you have grown a relationship, grown this family with.

Speaker 20 It's not all bad. And it's similar with domestic violence victims, where the cycle just kind of keeps going because he was doing good, kind, helpful things.

Speaker 20 And

Speaker 20 those parts of him that

Speaker 20 were not hidden were the good parts and were probably genuinely good to them. But he obviously had this side that nobody would have anticipated, nobody would have expected him to do where

Speaker 20 he was raping this little boy since he was tiny.

Speaker 1 ADA McCallum pointed out that there are times when these cases can't be prosecuted.

Speaker 20 Sometimes I have to make the hard decision where I don't believe a child is going to be able to make it through the process, or I just don't think that we're going to be able to get a beyond the reasonable doubt verdict.

Speaker 20 And so sometimes those cases are not approved.

Speaker 20 That's actually probably the hardest thing that I have to do because then I have to tell that family, it's not the time for this.

Speaker 1 And what about Tyler? Could he make it through a trial?

Speaker 20 There was no question based on my review of his interview and his discussions with my detectives and even when I met him at the preliminary hearing.

Speaker 20 He was going to be okay.

Speaker 1 And what if Justin got what he wanted and Tyler didn't testify?

Speaker 20 If Tyler didn't cooperate and if Tyler wasn't willing to testify in this case at a trial, we would not be able to convict Justin Rutherford of the crimes for his conduct against Tyler.

Speaker 20 In Pennsylvania specifically, I have to call child victims to testify unless there is some other evidence

Speaker 20 where it's videotaped or something like that, or somebody witnesses it in order to sustain my convictions. And so

Speaker 20 because sexual offenses occur secretly, they happen for a very long time. We have almost no evidence ever other than the victim's own words.

Speaker 20 Their words become the most important thing for the prosecution.

Speaker 1 The district attorney's office had solid evidence against Justin. They believed he needed to be held accountable for his crimes and kept off the streets.
So they made a plea offer.

Speaker 1 Justin found the offer unacceptable.

Speaker 6 Dear nanny, I am so sad that you want me to take this deal. I don't understand how you think it is okay for me to be in here for 15, 30 years.

Speaker 6 Do you think I'm guilty?

Speaker 6 Do you not believe me?

Speaker 6 I mean, I know it's not your fault I'm in here, but I thought you would do everything

Speaker 6 you could to prevent this injustice.

Speaker 6 I don't know how you sit there idly by and watch as he takes everything, not just from me,

Speaker 6 but you and the kids.

Speaker 1 He takes everything?

Speaker 1 The he is Tyler. The he is a 16-year-old boy who has just lost everything.

Speaker 1 According to Justin, Tyler was doing this to him, to Nanny D and the kids. And Nanny wasn't doing anything about it.

Speaker 6 I lost my wife, house, car,

Speaker 23 job.

Speaker 6 If I took this deal, I would not only lose my kids, since I would not be out until they were adults, but I would lose my career. I would never practice medicine again.

Speaker 6 If they had my DNA or an eyewitness. But literally, they have nothing.

Speaker 1 If Justin thought nothing of Tyler's testimony, why was he trying so hard to have him recant?

Speaker 6 You always said you would do anything for me.

Speaker 6 You could negotiate other terms such as money, treatment, etc.

Speaker 6 I'll complete treatment and never contact him if he recants and doesn't testify.

Speaker 6 I know I'm putting you in a difficult spot and it's not something I like to do. But Nanny, this is not fair, and you know it.

Speaker 6 I am backed into a corner with nowhere to go. I just can't take the pain of not being there for you and the kids.
The pain of being labeled...

Speaker 6 you know what? The pain of losing my reputation, career, and the pain of being a failure. Bad father.

Speaker 1 In these letters, Justin emotionally torments his godmother, Nanny. He uses suicide and dying as a negotiation tactic.
The blood would be on her hands.

Speaker 1 Justin must have thought that would work on Nanny. He knew...

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Speaker 1 But she really loved him.

Speaker 1 Time was running out for Justin. His court date was approaching.
He realized that option three, persuading Tyler to recant, was not going to happen.

Speaker 1 He didn't seem too eager to pull the trigger on option one, taking his own life.

Speaker 1 He was ready to deploy option two.

Speaker 1 He wrote to Nanny,

Speaker 6 Even the Bible is full of God smiting one's enemies. For example, David versus Goliath.
At this point, you have to choose a side. It's either me or him.

Speaker 1 He should have known that the police monitored his communication, but at that point, he didn't seem to care. He was done being reasonable.

Speaker 6 I really need you to do this, and I mean ASAP. Look, I have tried every other way.

Speaker 6 I'm not saying you have to do it personally.

Speaker 1 Was he really suggesting what I think he is suggesting?

Speaker 6 I am done fucking around.

Speaker 6 The offer they gave me is the same as this 23-year-old kid who stabbed his mother 60 plus times. all because of stories that were made up after the camera thing went down

Speaker 1 he even suggested this

Speaker 6 go downtown martinsburg and look for a druggie just get it done

Speaker 6 offer less than ten thousand

Speaker 6 pay after

Speaker 17 cash

Speaker 1 any old druggie would do to kill tyler Remember, this man was a doctor. Justin always told Nanny he loved her and would look after her in his letters, but he seemed quite willing to risk her freedom.

Speaker 6 Nanny,

Speaker 6 I am asking you to trade your few remaining years for my 40 plus.

Speaker 6 That is, if you do it.

Speaker 6 Obviously, talk to no one else and ask for a lawyer immediately, if questioned.

Speaker 1 And if she could find a willing assassin, he offered guidance on the best time to approach the target.

Speaker 6 I recommend after work, but you do it how you wish.

Speaker 6 This is not the road I wanted,

Speaker 6 but it is the one that must be taken.

Speaker 6 It's either that

Speaker 6 or me.

Speaker 1 In case Nanny wasn't taking the suicide threat to heart, he concluded the letter with his own obituary.

Speaker 6 33-year-old male with so much potential.

Speaker 6 Good doctor, good father, wrongfully accused.

Speaker 6 Survived.

Speaker 1 Nanny wasn't going to find someone to kill Tyler. He would take the matter into his own hands and find someone on the inside.

Speaker 1 What was Justin offering?

Speaker 1 Money, of course.

Speaker 1 Other inmates probably thought he was rich since he was a doctor.

Speaker 22 He just basically said, you know, when I get out of here, I'll make sure that you're comfortable.

Speaker 1 Justin would do anything, anything to save himself. The details were all in the affidavit of probable cause.

Speaker 1 The affidavit says,

Speaker 1 Rutherford wrote down the victim's address, his schedule, the car he operates, his interests, and other personal identifying information. Rutherford also drew a floor plan of the victim's residence.

Speaker 1 It continues.

Speaker 1 Through the use of covert recording devices, investigators were able to intercept communications Rutherford made while incarcerated at Berks County jail system.

Speaker 1 During this interception, investigators heard Rutherford discuss having the victim murdered.

Speaker 1 During the interception, Rutherford stated that a Monday night after 7 p.m. would be the best time as it is dark and no one else would be home.

Speaker 1 Rutherford stated to use gloves and to wear layers of clothing, so no DNA is found. Rutherford stated as soon as you knock him out, it's painless and no evidence.

Speaker 1 The affidavit also contained Justin's instructions for disposing the body. Rutherford also stated that the victim could be buried in the forest somewhere.

Speaker 1 Rutherford also stated that the victim could be burned in a barrel, as this would be like a cremation and is also a good way to get rid of any evidence.

Speaker 1 It was all on tape.

Speaker 1 Sergeant Fick had suspected that Justin wouldn't just try to persuade his godmother nanny.

Speaker 22 When we got possession of the jailhouse letters,

Speaker 22 I wanted to arrest him for that. At that point, we were told they felt we needed more.
I went to other state prisons and interviewed individuals that were cellmates and on the block with Justin.

Speaker 22 And they all told me that's all he would talk about.

Speaker 22 But the good news is, we did have the chance to use an informant to obtain information how he wanted to have Tyler killed.

Speaker 1 They caught a break. Another prisoner whose release date was near came forward.
He was disturbed by Justin's persistent solicitation of him to kill Tyler when he was released.

Speaker 1 At first, the informant didn't believe Justin.

Speaker 22 He thought he was joking because when you're in there, you have nothing else to do. You're going to blow steam off.
I wish he was dead. I get it.
But he went too far.

Speaker 22 He did not just say, I wish he was dead, or, you know, I wish someone would kill him.

Speaker 22 He actually gave details, giving him a layout of the home, what it looks like, Tyler's interests, and explain different scenarios on how to kill him, make sure that there's no evidence.

Speaker 22 He stepped way over that line.

Speaker 1 Justin knew the layout of the home where Tyler was living, the nights he worked, where his room was in the new house.

Speaker 6 How?

Speaker 1 In the last episode, Stacey explained that she allowed the littles to send and receive letters from Justin in jail. But there was more.
Stacy also permitted Justin to have video calls with them.

Speaker 16 That's how he drew the map. The kids video chatted and wanted to show him their new house.

Speaker 16 You know, you thought you were doing the right thing. You know, what could it harm letting him talk to the little ones? But then the whole time he was like plotting this stuff in the back.

Speaker 1 Stacy didn't want Tyler to be in the house during these calls.

Speaker 16 I would say, Tyler's not home this night. He's got to work.
That'd be a great night for you to call. So like he knew his work schedule because of that.

Speaker 16 I never

Speaker 16 thought twice about, oh my God, I just told him that he's at work.

Speaker 1 Detectives drove down to Stacey's home from Berks County to tell her about Justin's plot in person.

Speaker 16 I remember sitting there crying and I was like,

Speaker 16 this child who you called yours, this is the child that you loved so much and you want him burned in a barrel. How disgusting.
He knew how much my kids mean to me. And you were okay taking that.

Speaker 16 You were okay taking another thing from me. You were okay taking another thing from your two children, their brother.

Speaker 16 It was sick to think that the person that loved him so much was willing to get rid of him to save his own self. So from that point on, I slept with a loaded gun next to my bed.

Speaker 17 I mean, I was going to shoot to kill if he was coming after me and my kids.

Speaker 16 When Tyler would come home from work, I would stay up and wait, especially on Monday nights, because it was supposed to be done on a Monday night.

Speaker 16 Monday nights were really bothersome for me. But I couldn't stop for the longest time waiting up and watching for him to come in.

Speaker 1 Justin thought he was smarter than everyone, but he wasn't smarter than the Berks County detectives. They planted a recording device and captured evidence of his plans to kill Tyler.

Speaker 1 Justin Justin had exhausted his options, and option one seemed more like a ruse to manipulate Nanny.

Speaker 1 Now, Assistant District Attorney Meg McCallum had a new option of her own, and it was one Justin probably never saw coming.

Speaker 20 Charges were brought against Justin Rutherford for a solicitation to commit a murder, specifically of Tyler.

Speaker 20 And I legally and ethically believe that we had sufficient evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Speaker 1 On the next episode of Betrayal, Stacey and Tyler finally get their day in court.

Speaker 17 I wanted to look at him because I wanted him to see my face when I was reading what I said to him.

Speaker 1 And Justin's words shock everyone.

Speaker 6 It had nothing to do with your age. I mean,

Speaker 6 love can strike you at any point. You know, look at Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher.

Speaker 1 If you're a man who has experienced sexual abuse or assault, or you know someone who is seeking support, go to onein6.org. That's the number one I-N number6.org.

Speaker 1 Find a path to a happier, healthier future. If you would like to reach out to the betrayal team, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com.
That's betrayalpod at gmail.com.

Speaker 1 Also, please be sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all betrayal content, news, and updates. We're grateful for your support.

Speaker 1 One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.
Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.

Speaker 1 Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison.

Speaker 1 Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Carrie Hartman.
Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristen Melchiori and Caitlin Golden.

Speaker 1 Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreinchek. Voice acting by Andrew Dobby.
Special thanks to Stacey Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of Stacey and Tyler's friends and family.

Speaker 1 Audio editing and mixing by Matt Salvecchio. Editing support from Nico Aruka.
Betrayals theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIBE Music.

Speaker 1 And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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