Take the Wheel PT 1

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I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson.

I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st-century lens.

Some are solved, and some are cold.

Very cold.

This is Buried Bones.

Hey, Paul.

Hey, Kate.

How's it going with you?

It's going well, and I'll tell you why.

I want to tell you about an episode that I don't know if you've heard yet that I recorded for Wicked Words.

I feel like I've interviewed some big names, including you, of course, like a David Gran and, you know, all of these, I feel like really big nonfiction folks.

And then across my email comes, do you want an interview with Marsha Clark?

Oh, okay.

So I was just awestruck.

I really was.

And she could not be sweeter.

And the interview is fantastic.

You should listen to it.

It is not about OJ.

Okay.

Nor did she want, I don't know if she ever wants to talk about O.J.

Simpson ever again.

I think she says says she sort of blocked it out of her mind, essentially.

Where were you when that case was going on?

Were you in Northern California or Central or where were you?

No, I was working for the Sheriff's Crime Lab at the time.

In fact, I was somewhat following the case.

It was a big deal in forensics because of all the evidence, particularly DNA that was being presented.

And so we were following it pretty closely.

In fact, I actually faxed information down to the LAPD crime lab because their criminalists obviously didn't know what he was talking about when it came to crime scene photography.

And the defense was really exploiting him on the stand.

And I was like, okay, you need to really understand how focal length with camera lenses can really change the front to rear aspect ratios.

So I compiled all this information and faxed it down.

But I distinctly remember that case.

Of course, I remember Marcia Clark.

In fact, I've spoken with Marcia over the phone.

She was getting involved with TV production, and I'm not sure if she still is or not, but we had chatted a little bit.

Then I actually sat next to Christopher Darden for a dinner.

I think it was an award ceremony at a CrimeCon,

so I got to chat with him a little bit, real nice guy.

And of course,

they have this whole OJ trial hanging over their heads for forever, in essence.

But I most certainly understand sort of how things kind of went awry for them and don't put a whole heck of a lot of personal blame on either one of them.

Yeah, absolutely.

I read, there was an article and I think the headline was something like, Marcia Clark has been absolved.

And it was kind of how she's gone from, I don't remember her being as villainized as, you know, this magazine and a lot of other media has said.

Back in 95, I was too busy working in a news station to really even pay attention to all that.

But now she's become this feminist icon, which she is after talking to her.

It's probably my favorite interview of all the interviews.

Sorry, everybody else that I've ever, including you, I've ever done on Wicked Words because she's so engaging and much like you, you know, she had the case.

She had O.J.

Simpson, you had the Golden State Killer.

And she certainly could have taken money back from a big, you know, book deal that she had and then just sort of gone off.

But she has just stayed so active.

She has novels.

She's got now two nonfiction books.

And I was talking to her about the latest one that's set in 1953.

As you said, she does TV stuff all the time.

So she really has stayed active.

And it was just so interesting to talk with her about the case that she was talking about on my show.

Yeah, you know, I've completely lost track of her, to be frank, you know, so I didn't know, I don't know what she's been up to.

So this is the first time hearing.

Yeah.

We talked a little bit about the misogyny that was happening, which was pervasive, of course.

And she was told to soften her hair and she was told to wear, you know, kind of less, I guess, masculine was the insinuation clothing, which she said, this is what I wear to court.

This isn't masculine to me, to use a softer tone.

So there was so much stuff, you know, looking back on it.

She just said, it just takes so long to process things like that, that this is stuff that you're just trying to do your job.

And that's the kind of thing that happens.

She was investigating a case from 53 that the district attorney at the time was heading up this case.

It was a huge murder trial of a botched home invasion.

And she said that this district attorney was an icon to her when she was working in LA as a prosecutor.

Everybody knew who this guy was long after he was dead.

And then she said, I looked in the case and it was awful.

He was awful.

He did so many illegal things then and now.

And she said, it's really dispiriting to have this person in your head, like who you're trying to strive to be.

And then when she actually looked and worked one of his cases, you know, 60, 70 years later to just see how many times he failed.

And, and it was just really disheartening for her.

It was interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause I'm thinking 1953.

So we're talking just a handful of years after the Black Dahlia case.

Out there in LA, you know, so that kind of puts in perspective because I've kind of dug into the Black Dahlia a little bit from the investigative side.

You know, and of course, law enforcement was, you know, so, I don't know, primordial, if you will, relative to today in terms of how they handled investigations and crime scenes and forensics.

That case, of course, never went to trial, but I can only imagine, you know, her assessment of sort of the legal mind that she held in great and high regard and now seeing, oh, well, maybe not so.

Yeah, absolutely.

It was putting plants in jail cells with a young woman, you know, not taking an account into her background, and then, you know, ultimately issuing a death sentence to a woman woman who was executed for essentially you know being a decoy and that was it and i said would you do that now and she said no now they're accessory to murder accessory after the fact they're all these things you know but she got looped in with the other two robbers who ended up killing somebody and and she just said it was it's a little stunning and the district attorney who she respected so much could have said you know sort of mitigating circumstances with leniency she was saying with leniency and he didn't do it i mean and this this young woman really did very little she knew something was going to happen, but she didn't suspect a murder would happen at all.

And then you're executing a mother of three or four people.

Yeah.

You know, it really underscores, you know, the power that the elected DA has.

You know, and I've been in the room where the death penalty is being debated for a particular case.

And of course, that's led by the elected DA.

And then the prosecutor who's handling the case presents the case.

And now you have very senior prosecutors, chief of investigations.

I happen to be in a couple of these during the course of my career with the DA's office.

And today it is taken very seriously.

And most certainly, you know, this scenario you're talking about where it sounds like she was an accessory in California.

Maybe this felony murder aspect is what they use to go after her.

But in essence, to apply the death penalty as if she's the one that's actually committing the murder, you know, that sounds way over the top.

Yeah.

And I mean, he nicknamed her the defendant Bloody Babs

in the courtroom in front of the jury.

And I said, Is that I feel like every other question was, is that legal?

Is that legal now?

Is that legal now?

And every answer was like, no, no, no, no.

And that's the issue.

Well, the defense would object.

You know, that's prejudicial.

That's influencing the jury.

It was startling to me.

So anyway, Marcia Clark, I am a huge fan.

And I even said it from the beginning.

I said, I don't think I use the word fangirl, but I'm really going to try to not gush.

And she said, well, thank you.

I listened to your show.

So very cool.

Marcia Clark is a celebrity in my little world of celebrities.

So I thought you'd find that interesting.

And we are hanging out in Southern California.

in the Pacific Palisades, actually, for this story.

But this is not 1953.

This is 1935.

Okay.

To me, I think you're going to find this interesting enough.

We're making this a double, and it involves Hollywood and an actress who I found so interesting that I actually watched one of her films from 1930, I think it was from 33 or so.

So there's a lot happening with this story.

No, it sounds, sounds cool.

Now, I don't think I've ever been in Pacific Palisades, but of course I'm very much aware of it.

Yeah, yeah, of course, especially with the fires earlier this year.

And I had been thinking about that.

So I feel like every time I have a case where I see that phrase of that neighborhood, Pacific Palisades, I'm always going to think about the fire.

So we are really going far back.

We're looking at 90 years ago.

So let's go ahead and set the scene.

So we are in 1935.

Remind me when Black Dahlia happened because I actually have not looked at the case at all.

I would love for you and I to talk about it, and I think we will.

You're going to have to bring it up if you think it reminds you of this in any way.

Okay, well, Black Dahlia was late 40s.

I believe it was 1947, but right now I'm a little fuzzy on the exact year that it happened.

I actually interviewed, there was an author, this Steve Hodell, who's former LAPD homicide, robbery homicide.

And he's written several books on the Black Dahlia.

And he's claiming his father is the offender in the Black Dahlia case.

I'm not convinced.

Let's just put it that way.

But it is a case that I'm highly interested in.

And I actually did reach out to a professional friend at LADA's office saying I'd be willing to help.

And basically, I got back from LAPD and the LADA's office.

Well, not at this time.

They have other priorities from something that was 80 years ago.

I guess you're right.

It was in 47.

Black Dahlia was in 47.

Yeah.

Well, basically, they said that they were looking at some things from the case, you know, so

it sounds like they have an interest in pursuing it.

But of course, a 1947 case will take the back burner when anything else pops up.

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We'll see you on board.

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Well, this is a a confusing case.

I don't know if it's a cold case.

So, this is 1935, the morning of Monday, December 16th.

There is a housekeeper named May, and she's a little bit more of an assistant, I think, to an actress, movie star.

Really, I'm not even going to say actress, movie star named Thelma Todd.

And, you know, I really was curious about Thelma.

I told you I watched one of her movies, and I would say movie star.

I mean, she really has a presence.

She is very well known.

And I'm going to show you a picture of her shortly, which sometimes I show you, you know, the people who are involved.

Sometimes I don't.

If I think it's relevant, you know, I'll show it to you.

And it'll be relevant, I think, in this case.

So her housekeeper shows up.

She is at a house in the Pacific Palisades, as I told you.

This is a neighborhood of LA.

If nobody knows that.

It's a seaside community that over the past decade or so has emerged as a secluded neighborhood for movie movie stars and studio executives.

And they build these incredible Mediterranean style homes so they can get away from the hustle and bustle of Hollywood.

It's very, very hilly.

So the housekeeper May

works for 29-year-old Thelma Todd.

She is a movie star.

And I'm just going to jump right to it.

She's our victim.

I think I want to give you kind of a lot of context about her up front because I do think it's relevant, especially with witnesses coming up.

So she is not a small-time actress.

She was in 120 feature films, feature films, and a lot of shorts over the last nine years.

So she starred with names you're going to recognize, right?

Buster Keaton, the Marx Brothers, Laurel and Hardy, and then a whole list of people who I'm pretty sure are famous, but I had not heard of.

She was slapstick.

That was her specialty.

And that's why I wanted to watch one of her films.

So there's a film called The Tin Man, and it's a short, and it was really good.

I watched it on YouTube.

And she is very Lucy of I Love Lucy.

She's paired up with a woman in the scene that I was watching.

You know, they're very, very Lucy and Ethel.

And so I watched it before I really dug into the story just because any opportunity, I know you do this too, any opportunity I have to feel like I have a deeper connection with our victim, I wanted to take.

And so, you know, it just kind of left me sad more than anything, but sad's appropriate when you're looking into an investigation.

Also, I assume, I know you want to know everything about the victim.

I'm not sure this movie that I watched was relevant to this case.

I actually know it wasn't, but I just felt like I really wanted to see.

Do you feel like that too?

Well, you know, with the cases that I work, you know, one of the first things that I do is try to learn as much about the victim as I possibly can.

You know, and I've said this over and over: victimology is huge.

You know, so who the victim is, what the victim is up to, you know, where the victim is going, you know, all these circumstances surrounding the victim sometimes can lead to the investigation to determine who's the one that's the offender, who's the one that's responsible for, let's say, if it's a homicide.

So that's important.

You know, for the cases that I primarily focused in on, you know, out of the 60s and the 70s, oftentimes I didn't have video of the victims.

Like nowadays, you know, if somebody ends up being a victim, there's all this social media stuff that's been posted and you can really see the victim in life.

In this case, 1935 with Thelma Todd,

this is probably an unusual circumstance where now, you know, a homicide victim, you can actually see in life.

Now she's portraying somebody.

She's an actress, right?

So it's not necessarily her and her personality, but it's still a living person that you know ended up dying for one reason or another.

Yeah.

One thing about Thelma that I think would occur with any Hollywood actress or actor or anybody who's well-known is this would be somebody who strangers would recognize.

You know, we're often talking about that.

In all of my cases, it feels like I hear the same thing over and over again, especially in the 1800s.

It looks like that guy.

Yeah, that guy looked like your suspect.

But Thelma Todd was, and I'm going to show you the photo in a second.

Thelma Todd would have stood out even in Pacific Palisades at this time.

So that's what makes to me this story really interesting, too.

Well, it sounds like she was a highly successful actor, you know.

So she was.

Celebrity, famous.

Yeah,

you know, the name is tickling my brain, you know, but I'm not picturing who she is.

Well, you can picture her now.

And this is a headshot.

Let me know what you think.

Oh, yeah.

One of the things that I do that people might think is somewhat strange is there's a YouTube channel called Hollywood Graveyard.

And it's very well done.

And this guy, he goes to the various cemeteries around, and he's now doing it all over the world, but he started out there in the LA area.

And he

tells stories about the various celebrities that are buried or interred in some manner at these various cemeteries.

And I believe that he's covered Thelma Todd, if she's out there.

She looks very familiar.

Yeah.

So Gene Harlow was considered the original bombshell.

And bombshell now, I think, would be considered an insult for a woman, or, you know, dismissive and really concentrating on her looks.

But Thelma Todd was in that category for Hollywood in the 1930s.

She was definitely considered the blonde bombshell.

I'm going to skip right over that and just say she was an excellent actress, obviously incredibly successful.

And she was also somebody who had businesses.

And that plays into it a little bit here, too.

Where we are when all this stuff starts to happen with Thelma is at the time of her death, she was shooting a movie and she was starring in two Howl Roach films that were about to be released.

One was called All-American Toothache.

I watched part of that.

And another one was called Bohemian Girl.

And that's on my list.

So she lives in an apartment above the restaurant that she owns.

She runs this place.

It's called Thelma Todd's Sidewalk Cafe.

And it's on what we now call the Pacific Coast Highway, right on the ocean.

So this is sort of her retirement plan and she was one of the very first celebrities to sort of use her brand, you know, put her actual name on a cafe rather than just calling it the Sidewalk Cafe.

She put her name on it and that was not usual.

So that's what we mean by she was sort of innovative and somebody who really wanted to be aggressive, recognizing that at age 29 in the 1930s, she could have been not far, another decade off of her career, unfortunately.

I don't know, but she was planning ahead.

So now we've got a Hollywood actress who also seems to have some money and she has an investment in a business and is well known.

So that's where we stand right now.

Okay.

Yeah.

So in essence, this celebrity aspect is, of course, going to draw attention.

And just from her, you know, the prolific nature of the number of films she's been in, you know, people that may have bad intent, of course, are going to assume she's got a lot of money.

And it sounds like with with some of the business aspects, she's utilizing her money wisely.

So she even has more money than maybe the average actress at that time.

Yep.

So let's talk about her as a person.

So May, the housekeeper, wants to find out where Thelma is, but she also kind of understands that Thelma is a young woman who likes to go out a lot.

She stays out late at night.

She might not come home.

And so I don't think she's particularly alarmed just yet.

It's not out of character for her to sleep away from home, especially on a weekend.

She has a really active social life.

And we have some more details on what her social life was like coming up.

May looks to this apartment.

There's no one there.

Then she goes to the house up the hill.

And this is where Thelma stays sometimes.

She is not there either.

Now, here is just sort of a theoretical question, I guess.

May has not decided to call the police yet.

And, you know, I know it's because she's thinking in her head, well, she doesn't have to report to me when she's doing what and when.

But at the same time, you know, at what point should somebody call the police?

Is it if somebody has not come home and it's completely out of their character?

I just don't know what, at what point do you sort of draw that line?

It's intimidating to call the police, Paul, to me at least, because, you know, if somebody walks through the door, you feel stupid, yet you have to explain stuff.

So I think probably a lot of people feel like that.

Yeah, I can see where there would be some reservation.

You know, it's so variable as to when somebody should call the police.

You know, here with May,

it sounds like, I mean, you described her as a housekeeper, but it sounds like she was more of a, like an assistant, you know, helping Thelma with all her day in and day out activities, coordinating things, etc.

So more of like an executive assistant.

And so I would say, you know, under that set of circumstances, you know, it sounds like Thelma not coming back to the apartment that particular night.

It's a Sunday night, and you know, we're going to find out that she was last seen Saturday.

Okay.

So, as far as May knew, Thelma went out, and I'll tell you with who in a little bit, Saturday night.

She hasn't talked to her since.

And it's Monday morning, and she, I think, she's thinking, well, I don't know, because it's been Sunday and Monday.

I'm surprised she's not here Monday morning because she would have been working at the cafe and doing stuff for the cafe.

I would say, you know, May's insight into what Thelma's normal routine would be because of May's position with Thelma, where she's now seeing Thelma is not doing what she normally would.

You know, now it's stepping outside the routine, depending on like if Thelma is not showing up at the restaurant, the restaurant ends up having to be closed or whatever, you know, or Thelma has some sort of meeting with a network executive or whatever it is, and May's going, ooh, Thelma wouldn't do this.

Now, at this point, then there should be concern.

Yeah.

Because now this is outside of the victimology that we know of for Thelma or that May knows of For Thelman.

And I would say that's kind of the same for any time somebody goes missing.

You know, law enforcement needs to do a better job listening to the families because the families go, this isn't right, right?

But oftentimes they're reporting an adult missing.

And so many times when that happens, law enforcement, you know, goes, well, this person has just left and they have an absolute right to leave.

And we're not going to spend resources to try to track that person down until there's a set of circumstances in which now we think there's an endangered aspect to this missing adult.

But with Thelma right now, it seems like May is recognizing Thelma would not normally be missing at this particular time during the day.

Absolutely.

This October, we're doing something very different.

We'll be recording buried bones live at sea.

That's right.

Kate and I will both be part of the first ever True Crime Podcast Voyage, hosted by Virgin Voyages and iHeart Podcasts.

This is five nights of mystery, luxury, and Halloween fun, sailing to the Dominican Republic and Bimini Bahamas, adults only.

No kids, no stress.

Expect a live podcast recording of buried bones, crime-themed trivia, behind-the-scenes sessions with iHeart hosts, and yes, plenty of surprises.

And it's all wrapped in the full Virgin Voyages experience.

20-plus eateries, Michelin star chef-curated menus, luxe staterooms, Wi-Fi, and entertainment included.

It's not just a cruise, it's a celebration of thoughtful true crime storytelling, and we want you to join us.

Book your cabin now at virginvoyages.com/slash true crime.

That's virginvoyages.com/slash true crime.

We'll see you on board.

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So May knows there are a few more places she can check.

She's not in the apartment down below.

She's not up the hill at this place.

And this is a big hill too, you know, where she would kind of go back and forth between staying at the house at the top of the hill, staying in her apartment.

So May decides she needs to look a few more places.

Before we talk about, you know, where else she looks, I want to say that the reason that Thelma stays at the house on the hill sometimes is that she's been dating a movie director for quite a while.

His name is Roland West, and he's the one who owns that house.

Nobody's at this house, and May has apparently a key to be able to get in.

Roland and Thelma, this is where things get a little complicated.

Roland and Thelma own the apartment above the restaurant together, but they have separate bedrooms, which are divided by a sliding wooden door.

And Roland is still technically married to another actress named Jewel Carmen.

Jewel is not a big Hollywood star.

She's a small-time actress, and it sounds like her career acting might be somewhat over.

So she is married to Roland.

And technically, while Thelma owns part of the restaurant, Thelma Todd's Cafe, Roland and Jewel together own part of it also.

It's a little murky what this whole relationship thing is like, but it doesn't sound like there have been public blow-ups.

They're not in the press.

It seems like whatever is happening seems kind of cordial in a way, or maybe they've worked out some kind of an agreement.

But now you've got Thelma involved with another Hollywood actress and then a director, and everybody seems to be kind of sharing residences.

It kind of gets odd after this.

Yeah, you know, of course, you know, this sounds like the typical lover's triangle, you know, in which you could potentially have jealousies arise.

And it really does come down to, you know, what does Jewel, Roland's wife, know about his relationship with Thelma?

Is this something that she has accepted?

You know, so of course, early investigations into the victimology.

And once this is found out, then it's, you know, talking to Roland, talking to Jewel.

And okay, what's going on here?

You know, is this something that's just an open type of marriage?

And this was an accepted relationship.

There's financial aspects that bind the three together up and beyond the relationships, you know, with the ownership of the restaurant, et cetera.

So that's, that's interesting.

What do you think about the separate bedrooms thing?

Is that surprising to you, knowing he's married?

And I do think Jules stays there.

I don't know.

I don't think I'm, you know, I'm not overly surprised by that.

I think it just depends on what Thelma and Roland's relationship really is like.

You know, and it could just be a convenience aspect, you know, whether maybe these rooms above the restaurant are very small, you know, or they just prefer to sleep separately when they're not engaging together.

You know, I don't know.

You know, I don't put a lot of weight on that right now.

You know, I think just the dynamics of the Thelma, Roland, and Jewel triangle, of course, is

a red flag, at least at this stage.

Okay, let me tell you about the connection and how you would travel from the apartment, which is by the ocean, up to this monster hill to get to Roland's beautiful house.

The restaurant and the apartment are directly downhill from Roland's house, and I will have two incredibly confusing maps for you in just a few minutes.

Thank you for that.

You're welcome for that.

Sometimes I think that these are awful maps, and then you look at them and go, well, this is the best thing I've ever seen, Kate.

Thank you.

Bring me more of these terrible maps.

So we'll see what you say.

But to get from the apartment or the cafe up to Roland's place in a car, there are a lot of little hairpin turns that you would have to get to.

It's not easy.

It's not a straight shot.

And then if you're going by foot, it would have been a hell of a climb.

It's several steep staircases in the hillside.

Thelma, and I'll tell you a little bit more about this in a second, had developed a heart condition.

And May used to drive her up in her car to get to the top if she wanted to spend the night at Roland's house.

And then Thelma would drive down, or maybe May would walk up.

And it didn't seem like a huge deal for May, but it was substantial.

I don't know if you want to see that now, but it does come into play about Thelma and how she would have gone from one place to the other if she had a heart condition.

Or we could get to her, what happens to her.

yeah let's get to let's let's get to sort of the the heart of the uh the matter okay and then we can expand out from there there's no sign of thelma anywhere may looks in the house's two-car garage so i think i said this before on most days may is going to park her own car in this garage so she'll drive up she'll park her car or walk up or whatever and then she'll drive thelma's car to the bottom of the cliff where the cafe and the apartment are so that thelma doesn't have to make this trek because she fainted on the set of a film and her mom says the doctor diagnosed her with this heart condition.

So what would that be?

Is that just a slow heart rate or low?

I don't know what that would even be.

It could be anything, I guess.

Just low blood pressure, you know, you know, she stood up too quickly.

And, you know, so it just depends.

But of course, you know, the heart condition is something that has to be weighed in in terms of, you know, what happens to Thelma down the road?

You know, is this something where she could have had a fatal incident and is found dead right now?

Of course, I know nothing about what's going on with Thelma.

So in the garage, May finds Thelma's total kick-ass car.

And I liked it so much that I included not it because I couldn't find a photo of it, but I included this type of car.

So you probably know it because you're a smartie about cars.

This is a chocolate brown Lincoln Phanton.

Have you heard of that?

Oh, yeah.

I've heard of that for sure.

I just wanted to show it to you.

I mean, this car, and not to talk about her looks, but she would have looked gorgeous in this car, and she had a driver much of the time.

I mean, this is what I mean by later on when we have witnesses to different things, she would have stood out on so many different levels.

And I know that this is still Hollywood, but this was a beautiful car.

Yeah, no, that's a head turner.

Thelma's a head turner.

So, of course, you know, she's, you know, she's driving around in a vehicle like this.

She's not trying to be discreet.

And, you know, she's like, here I am.

Okay.

May sees her car.

She is alarmed because she couldn't find Thelma anywhere else.

She looks inside the car, and this is where we see Thelma's body.

May does not examine her at all.

She just sees her slumped over

and she gets very upset.

Of course, she runs down to the cafe, flying down those steep steps.

She finds a general manager.

He calls the police.

So this is all Monday morning.

And she was last seen Saturday night, as far as we know right now.

So, I can tell you what her body looked like, but I also can immediately talk about the autopsy too.

So, you tell me.

I know you like autopsy stuff, but what do you think?

Yeah, well, let's

get into the crime scene first in terms of understanding

her body in context, you know, in situ in the back of this car, and then go into the autopsy.

So, she is found slumped over the steering wheel.

We find out that her nose is broken and she was bleeding from the mouth, but police think it's because she passed out and hit her face against the steering wheel.

I think one of the reasons is, this is an interesting bit here.

May said the garage was closed and that when she saw Thelma and she saw, you know, a little bit of bleeding and she's laying over the steering wheel, that she was unusually red.

Her face was really red.

Let's kind of start there.

They're not saying trauma and their immediate response is not, this is, you know, somebody who's been beaten up.

But what do you kind of think so far the way that I've laid it out?

Or do you need more info?

Well, I think with sort of the thumbnail sketch, broken nose, bleeding out of the mouth, which, you know, possibly can occur as a result of, you know, the trauma to the nose.

In terms of evaluating the fracture to the nose, you know, it is, you know, how much damage is truly there?

Is it consistent with somebody who's just now passes out and nose hits a hard steering wheel?

Or is there more damage to that?

And so that'd be something that would be determined at autopsy, as well as what other injuries she has on her body.

You know, the red.

kind of it sounds like her face is flush

and you know there's a variety of reasons why that can occur you know one of the first things, just due to the context of where she's found in a car inside a closed garage, is is it possible that there's a carbon monoxide poisoning,

accidental potentially?

You know, she was sitting in that car for too long.

Is the car still running when May, you know, enters in?

Does she detect something's wrong?

Is the car completely out of gas, but the ignition is turned like it's still running?

You know, then that might suggest that, you know, she, for whatever reason, drove into the garage, closed the garage, and stayed in there too long and then ultimately succumbed to carbon monoxide.

So there's that aspect.

You know, is there potentially, does the heart condition weigh in?

Is there a circulatory type of issue that's causing the red flushing?

And then, of course, there's different acts of violence, such as strangulation, you know, which could cause that red flushing.

So at this point, I think, you know, the investigators are they're evaluating what's going on it is unusual to see a homicide victim just seated in a car slumped over the steering wheel if it's not a gunshot victim you know we often see that today with shootings but I'm assuming right now she's not a gunshot victim or a stabbing victim or something like that.

And so now they're assessing things and reconstructing and they're probably going, this very likely could just be

an accidental death or could be a natural if she had, if the heart condition weighed in as to the reason why she, you know, ended up deceased inside this vehicle.

Yeah, and I think there's a lot of speculation about that.

Was it the heart condition that contributed to this?

Did she climb up all of those stairs herself and then something happened?

She got into the car.

So let me just tell you a couple of facts that are important, and then we can get to the autopsy.

Number one, May saw Thelma Saturday night before she went to an event, and she said she's wearing the same clothing.

She was wearing a mauve and silver dress and a mink coat and lots of expensive jewelry.

She had an expensive handbag with her.

None of it was touched.

It's all there.

So, you know, at first blush, she's been there since Saturday night, early Sunday morning, whenever, you know, she left this event.

So they're trying to get a timeline together, but that's going to come into question soon.

The other note is that police do find the key and the ignition to her fancy car.

It was turned to the on position, but the car was not running.

So this is out of my pay grade.

So I'm just going to tell you what it is and you can tell me what you think.

This is a combustible engine.

So there is no catalytic converter.

I don't even know what that was.

I didn't until I had to pay for one.

And then I found out really quick what it is.

It's expensive because of the precious metals inside there i mean i think it's the worst thing you can pay for so i can thank my kids for all the driving with that with to get a new catalytic converter he said how did you put this many miles on this car it's only a couple years old so the police say that this is because the car's engine because it's a combustible engine needs oxygen to run so if something happens and the car is turned on once the garage is filled up with carbon monoxide there's no more oxygen and the engine would just cut off does that sound right?

Yes, it does.

What happens now with the engine?

First of all, what kind of engines do we have now?

I know we should know that I should know that.

It's the same, you know, in terms of for gasoline engines, in essence, they're just combustion engines.

And so, you know, they're fundamentally operate the same way as this particular engine, just obviously more advanced.

You need oxygen for fire.

Well, that's in essence what happens inside the cylinder of, you know, one of the chambers within these engines.

And

this particular car possibly had anywhere from eight to 12 cylinders.

And there's a spark plug in each cylinder.

And then there's a source of fuel that sprays into the cylinder.

And so now you have this gas vapor.

And then as the cylinder comes up, and compresses that gas, there's a spark from the spark plug that ignites the gas.

And in order for that gas to actually combust to produce pressure to force the cylinder down, which ultimately is the mechanism that is translated into being able to move the vehicle, once there's no oxygen, that combustion engine can't operate anymore.

So if that garage filled up with sufficient carbon monoxide, I would say, yeah, theoretically, it's possible that the engine just died and had been left running for a period of time.

Okay.

Well, let's keep that in mind because, you know, there are a lot of theories that are going to be floating around 1935 LA pretty soon.

There is someone who comes, a doctor who comes and examines her body.

His name is J.P.

Sampson.

When Dr.

Sampson looks at Thelma's body, he says she has been dead for about 12 hours.

Now, I don't know how he determines that.

I don't think they use liver temperature, but maybe it was rigor.

But just doing math, let's say this happens at 9 a.m.

That puts her death at 9 p.m.

Sunday night, but she's wearing the clothes from Saturday night.

So, you know, one of the things I want to address about her clothes, you know, May sees her leaving Saturday night in those clothes.

What we don't know is, is it possible?

that she stayed in those clothes alive for how long period of time?

Or did she redress into those clothes?

And those are the clothes she came back to Roland's place in in this vehicle.

So it's kind of hard to draw a firm conclusion that whatever happened to Thelma happened Saturday night because we just don't know anything about her state of dress and how long she had those clothes on before she ended up dying.

So it's interesting.

I would say what you could conclude is, well, she did not get back to her residence or a location where she had clothes that she would be wanting to change into.

You know, that would be part of it.

To try to timeline exactly when something happened to Thelma based on her dress would be tough.

Yes, I have had times in my youth where I have been in the same clothing for 36 hours and I wasn't camping.

I was living in New York.

So, yes, we'll see.

I don't trust the 12-hour timeline either.

I guess we'll just see how this progresses.

Well, and even the pathologist saying she's been dead for 12 hours, that's just a rough, rough guess.

So we've got the autopsy.

Thelma's brain and organs are described in the autopsy report as scarlet red of blood, and her body is also discolored red.

Her blood is found to have a 75 to 80 percent saturation of carbon monoxide.

Which is classic.

You know, this is

when you see somebody like this and at autopsy, the pathologist is immediately going, okay, we've got carbon monoxide.

You know, this is even before there's any type of toxicology testing going on.

It's this is almost diagnostic.

You know, and the question is, is, you know, at this point, okay, is this, is it accidental?

Is it natural?

Or is there a chance that there is violence inflicted on her to a point to where she is is unconscious and is left inside this garage.

And now the carbon monoxide is building up from the running car, and then she succumbs to the carbon monoxide poisoning.

But the reality is that there was a violent act at the hands of another.

So, too early to really draw a conclusion, but most certainly at this point, unless you tell me of other significant injuries to her, at this point, carbon monoxide sounds like the primary cause of death.

Yes.

And there are no other significant injuries other than what I had mentioned before, a little bleeding at the mouth and a broken nose, which investigators conclude very quickly is because, you know, when carbon monoxide started to take effect, that her face hit the steering wheel, which would have been a very heavy steering wheel, a wood probably or mahogany.

I don't know what it would have been.

And broke her nose.

The question I think that is going to come is, is this suicide?

Is this an accident?

How would this have been an accident?

Or is this something else?

Because there are a lot of complicated things happening.

Right now, it appears that

the medical findings aren't differentiating the manner of death.

So there is no sign of strangulation.

There's no defensive injuries.

Obviously, I've already asked.

There's no stab wounds, no gunshot wounds, etc.

So, fundamentally, you've got a fractured nose, bleeding out of the the mouth,

and carbon monoxide poisoning.

Basically, all types of manners of death potentially are on the table, though homicide kind of becomes less likely, but not eliminated based on these circumstances.

I'm going to talk in a little bit about what she did that night, who she was with, and the circumstances about why homicide definitely needs to stay on the table.

The coroner, so there was Dr.

Sampson, but there's also a coroner, a separate person, who said after his examination that Thelma had been dead more like 30 hours when she was found, which of course is much closer to the Saturday night mark.

Again, what's reliable here and what isn't?

I don't have notes on what they were using.

I think it was probably rigor.

I don't think they were using liver temperature at this point.

You know, rigor would be part of it.

You know, that's one of the first things that the pathologists are going to note in terms of how long the body has been dead.

You know, the body temperature, you know, this was occurring mid-December, you know, but you're also dealing with L.A., you know, on the coastal front there.

You know, it's maybe 70 degrees in the wintertime at times.

You know, it's not excessively hot.

It's not excessively cold.

My assessment, what I would want to be taking a look at.

You know, they're, they're drawing a conclusion that she hit her nose on the steering wheel.

If that's what happened, you know, you imagine her head going forward, she's basically collapsing and probably doesn't revive after that point, right?

So now are the blood flows out of the nose, the blood patterns inside the vehicle consistent with that last movement of her body that caused the bleeding to occur?

Or is there blood in discrete locations that would not line up with this idea of just slumping forward as if she, let's say somebody punched her in the nose, she gets knocked out, and then that person puts her into a seated position in the driver's seat, you know, and leaves the vehicle running inside this closed garage.

You know, that's where now you have to start really paying attention to the details.

And I'm not sure you have those details.

Well, let's see.

We do have a lot of information about what she did that night, and you're right, like more theories and maybe a little bit more information.

Do you think that carbon monoxide poisoning would throw off time of death estimations at all?

Or no?

Generally not.

Now, part of what we look at at a crime scene is lividity.

The blood settles with gravity after you die.

Your heart is no longer pumping.

And so, as Thelma is seated there, slumped over, heart stops, blood settles to the lower parts of her body, showing the position that she's in.

That lividity is something that I would be paying attention to to see had she laid in a position different than the position that she is ultimately found in.

Lavidity sets after a certain period of time.

So if somebody is moved prior to the lividity setting, then the lividity, the blood shifts inside the body.

And so the original lividity pattern is changed.

But once the lividity pattern sets, when the body's moved from the time that they die to the time that they ultimately are found, the lividity will show that.

And the extent of the lividity is possibly something the pathologist may be relying upon to get a better sense in terms of how long somebody's been dead under select circumstances the carbon monoxide poisoning can make it tougher to see the faint lividity aspects just because of the coloration due to the carbon monoxide Various decomposition processes are occurring and if she's been dead for 30 hours, it's possible you could start to see some of like her veins become darker as the bacteria are starting to decompose the blood inside the veins.

They become very prominent looking.

This is what we call marbling.

And that possibly can occur within that 30-hour period of time.

Or you could start to see the dissension of the, you know, the bloating of the abdomen.

you know, as the gases from the gut bacteria start to build up, or you get a greenish tinge to the abdomen.

You know, this is indicating that she's probably been dead longer than 12 hours.

So the pathologist, if he's doing proper documentation in his autopsy report, if he's saying she's been dead for 30 hours, then he should be listing the characteristics that he is observing to come to that opinion.

Well, as we wrap up this first episode, I'm going to talk about why this is a two-parter

because there were a lot of suspicions about her death.

There were a lot of things that investigators thought were really odd and her mother really thought was odd.

So number one, we've already noted that her car is parked in the garage at the top of this massive hill.

And I will give you a hint for the next episode.

She did not drive it.

She had a driver.

who took her to an event and then took her and dropped her off at 3 a.m.

at her apartment.

Oh.

Right.

And her car had been at Roland's house up the hill all day.

She just didn't want to deal with driving.

And she had a driver, you know, take her places that day.

Her mother says there is no way at three in the morning, she climbed the steps.

That would have just taken her out completely.

She had never done it before to get up to Roland's house.

How did she get up to Roland's house?

And she's also had some threats in the last couple of months.

So there's a lot happening with this story.

Yeah, so the plot thickens.

Very good.

You stole that from some hard-boiled detective

novel you read.

Have you ever said that in real life?

The plot thickens?

No, not that I can recall.

Except now.

Okay, so next week we will talk more about the absolutely fantastic Thelma Todd and the tragedy that is her death, whatever happened to her.

Hopefully, by the end of the next episode, we will get to the bottom of this.

I hope so too.

I will see you next week.

All right, Kate, thank you.

Thanks.

This has been an Exactly right production.

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buried bones sources.

Our senior producer is Alexis Emorosi.

Research by Marin McClashin, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Toliday.

Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at Buried Bones Pod.

Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked: A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Deco the Criminal Mind, is available now.

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