Flew the Coop PT 2

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Are there two sides to every story?

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I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson.

I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

And And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

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Hey, Paul.

Hey, Kate.

How are you?

I'm doing well.

I'm ready to get into this case again of this missing woman who goes to find her fiancé on his chicken farm and then vanishes and her parents are so upset about it and then we make some pretty big discoveries and I know I left you hanging on this case the last time and we know that things have gone very badly for Elsie well I would say so I mean considering she's dismembered and scattered around Norman's potato farm and the chicken coop areas

so it's not a good place to be I want to give a little trigger warning We have some talk of suicide in this half of the episode.

So I just want everybody to know that we will be talking about someone taking their own life.

So we're in England, 1924.

There's a young woman, you know, named Elsie Cameron.

She's engaged to a guy named Norman Thorne, who has a chicken farm outside of London.

She lives in London.

They're, as I said, engaged, but he is creating some distance.

And after a few years of dating, and then they become engaged maybe about a year earlier.

She says, I'm pregnant.

He says, I'm in love with someone else.

And she says, I'm coming up on December 6th.

We know she shows up on December 5th instead.

And then her parents don't hear from her.

And it's total devastation, I'm assuming, from her parents when the police do a search of his chicken farm and they see some freshly dug dirt.

And they dig and they find several key pieces of evidence.

So, her jewelry, a suitcase, and then, of course, they come up with a human torso, which we were assuming is going to be Elsie's.

So, Norman, when approached by the police, says, Okay, let me tell you what happened.

First, I'll show you where the rest of her body parts are, terrifying.

And they find her legs and her head, and essentially enough information to give them some idea of what happened.

So, I think my big question was: why would Norman do this?

I know that he's caught with a human torso on his property.

He's not admitting to murder.

He is saying, I dismembered her.

So then the big question is, what is Norman going to say happened to Elsie where he is so willing to turn over all of this information to the police and let them search wherever they want on his chicken farm when he had denied even seeing her before?

Sure.

Well, obviously he's caught in a lie, you know, so now he's the evidence has been found, Elsie has been found, and he's offering up information, you know, and of course, is he minimizing during, you know, this stage of confessing?

There's always that possibility.

He may admit to select acts that he thinks are relatively minor and then try to point the finger at somebody else who's actually the one responsible for the homicide.

Now, I think, did you say that he admitted to the dismemberment?

He will admit to the the dismemberment, yes.

Got it.

But he's pointing the finger somewhere else for the actual homicide.

Sounds like it.

So I'll tell you what Helena Normenton, the barrister, says, because she was really heavily involved in observing this case with this, you know, kind of a legal eye on it.

So Helena says that Norman had severed the head halfway up the back of the neck, but low down by the breastbone in front.

What is that exactly?

Because then they found the torso.

And I guess I assumed, sort of, I don't know, maybe I don't know the boundaries of what's considered a torso versus a decapitation.

You know, at least the way that Helena is describing that, and I'm not sure it's indicating the direction that, you know, the cutting occurred, but she's describing that you have a cut that's halfway up the back part of the neck, and then it's angled downward to the front toward your breastbone.

This is your sternum.

So for whatever reason, this decapitation took that path to remove Elsie's head.

Now, typically, a torso is usually just

the upper body, the rib cage, down to the pelvis, and that the extremities have been removed.

So, the arms, the legs, and the head have been removed.

That's usually how a torso is defined.

And oftentimes, you'll see where a torso is further dissected into an upper and lower part.

Okay.

So at least we have information because we have these body parts.

Like I remember reading how all pieces of the body would be valuable, but a torso would be valuable, be vital to the organs.

We will know if she was actually pregnant.

Is that right?

Is that what we can assume here with the torso?

Very possibly.

You know, with such a large part of the body, oftentimes the injuries that cause death are present within the torso area, like a stabbing to the heart or a gunshot wound, but not necessarily.

And with Elsie's case, yes,

provided that the reproductive organs are still present, that they would be able to determine if she had been pregnant.

What Helena says, which is interesting, is that he had put her head in a tin.

And she believed it was, and I think the prosecutors eventually will say, that he put her head in a tin to prevent its quick decomposition as part of evidence because the way he severed her head preserved the neck.

So the prosecutors believe that he put this head in the tin so that they will be able to clearly see her neck.

Okay.

Do you see where this could be going, what his defense could be here?

Well, at least with the way I'm interpreting that he's wanting to preserve the neck as evidence, that indicates that the neck is demonstrating possibly cause of death, ligature and or manual strangulation, cut throat, stabbing to the neck, which considering in my assessment of Norman, he's stupid from a committing crime standpoint.

At this point, we don't know if he's the one who actually killed Elsie.

But in essence, to scatter her body on his property, the suitcase is buried on his property, her jewelry's on the property, you generally don't want to do that because it just points the fingers right back at you.

And it doesn't sound like he did really all that great of a job of getting rid of this evidence in terms of hiding it.

But for him to claim that he's preserving Elsie's head and neck because the neck is going to provide evidence.

That's why he's decapitating her in the way he did.

I'm surprised that he did that.

I'm not sure how it can be used as a defense just yet.

So I'm very interested to hear more as you go along.

And, you know, I don't think he said that.

I think that Helena, the barrister, assumed that's why he was doing it.

But now you're going to know why.

So the police interrogate Norman.

He does admit to dismembering Elsie.

He's adamant he did not murder her.

And so he starts to unravel this story to explain to the police how all this came about.

He says that on December 5th, she surprised him, you know, as was probably her point.

She shows up at the farm a day early.

He had gotten her letter saying she would be there on the 6th.

She shows up on the 5th.

She says, we're getting married.

I'm moving in with you in this tiny 85 square foot Reno hut.

And sort of that is that.

I don't think this was a romantic discussion.

I think this was probably kind of a threatening in some way discussion.

Like this, you know, this is the way it is.

I don't care about your girlfriend.

We are doing this because this is the situation we're in.

They began arguing, and Norman said to Elsie, I'm meeting this woman.

I have plans to meet her and her mother at the train station later today.

Norman says that he promised to help Elizabeth and her mom carry some packages back to their house.

Remember, I think that they're close by.

And he said, You're not moving in with me.

I'm going.

This is not happening.

I don't want to be in a relationship with you anymore.

He didn't acknowledge the baby, it sounds like, at least he says that he didn't.

He said, I am going to go find a room for you to stay in where, you know, you don't have to go back tonight if you want.

But he said, you know, you're not going to move in with me.

He says he left the hut.

He met with Elizabeth.

He said when he came back a few hours later, Elsie was dead.

She had hanged herself in his hut using his washing line.

Okay.

That's why the barrister believes he preserved her head and neck so you could see the mark and it would back up his story.

He said he found her body.

He panicked.

He thought because of their what was turning into a very acrimonious situation between the two of them that he would be pegged rightly for her murder.

And so instead of going to get help, you know, to see if she was still alive or something, he chose to dismember her body with a hacksaw.

He buried her remains, which we know, and then he said he burned her clothing in his stove.

And now you can react.

And now we know why he did this.

Well, you know, it is a plausible scenario in terms of the relationship and the position Norman has taken, somewhat with Elsie's predisposition to depression, I guess, you know, at least with, you know, some of the concerns about her mental health.

But this is where it comes down to, okay, what does this neck show?

Are the injuries to the neck consistent with a hanging, or is there something more going on?

And my concern is whether or not they have a reasonably competent pathologist or medical personnel who can assess that accurately.

We do, but we don't know if he's on the right side or not.

So this is where we have to figure out which way we want to go.

There is the finding of the coroner's jury.

There is the coroner's report and of course the pregnancy.

And then we have the experts coming in.

And Bernard Spillsbury, who you've heard of before, because we've talked about him on several cases, he is the most well-known pathologist, I believe, in Great Britain history.

So he ends up coming in on this case.

And I'm not going to tell you what side he comes in on yet.

Okay.

But do we want to go in order and just sort of see what everybody's saying steps along the way?

Or do you want to jump?

The neck doesn't come in until Spillsbury comes in.

I will remind you, though, they said advanced decomposition, even though it was December, and even though he put it in a 10.

Yeah.

There's some difficulty in figuring out what happened in this case.

It's not clear-cut.

No, just go in order.

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So, Norman makes this admission, and then, of course, investigators and the crown prosecutor say, well, we're going to have to figure out what's what here because they did know about her supposed mental condition.

There's all sorts of misogyny happening in the media and with doctors in this time period.

I don't know truly what Elsie's condition was.

You know, this is before she was pregnant when they were calling her kind of melancholy and everything else.

She could have truly been, you know, really going through something.

I think that was an observation from her parents also.

It's just hard to know because of this time period how severe, how competent the doctors were, any of that kind of stuff.

You also just just think about just her, you know, the state of the relationship and where it's at.

I think the average person is going to be upset, probably depressed.

This man that she loves is in love with another woman.

You know, life is going to get difficult to Elsie.

So just the observations of being melancholy, depressed, you know, I don't think that's indicative of somebody who is suicidal or somebody who's going to strike out in a rage or a violent act.

Absolutely.

So, you know, what we do know is that she ended up dismembered and dead.

And we're just trying to figure out whether he was the cause of it or whether she was the cause of it.

So one thing that was interesting from the book that I had just written, The Sinner's All About, was, you know, this was the story of a woman who was found hanging just sort of like this, at least Norman claims that's what happened.

And the argument was that she was, Sarah Cornell was incredibly depressed, very upset about, you know, being pregnant and what she said said was a sexual assault.

And there was a woman who got on the stand, one of the matrons.

I don't think I told you this when I talked to you about the book.

There was a woman who got on the stand in Sarah's case and the prosecutor said to her, do you think Ephraim Avery killed Sarah Cornell?

And she was very cagey, but what she said.

was one way or the other, he's responsible for her death.

So it's either he murdered her or what he did to her, which she says was a sexual assault resulting in a pregnancy, resulted in her taking her own life, which I thought was one of the most interesting

lines in the whole book.

One way or the other, this man is absolutely responsible for her death.

And I think that's what we're trying to figure out, but this body is decomposing

every second.

With Elsie's case, you could have Norman, who actually did kill her and then is trying to cover up the crime.

Or if the circumstances of the relationship with Norman are are such, you know, then you could say, yeah, indirectly, you know, Norman could be thought to be responsible for Elsie taking her life.

But, you know, from a legal standpoint, you know, homicide is defined as, you know, death at the hands of another fundamentally.

You know, just because you get into a bad relationship doesn't make that one person responsible for somebody taking their own life.

So that's just an interesting thought.

But again, I'm wanting the details about Elsie.

I want to see if we can, you know, kind of really figure out what happened here.

Well, here's the first bombshell.

When they do an autopsy, Elsie was not pregnant.

So she could have legitimately thought she was and didn't know that she wasn't.

Maybe she had it in a regular period.

I don't know.

That's why I'm saying I'm fairly certain she didn't go to a doctor who would have confirmed it.

I mean, in 1832, a doctor confirmed that Sarah Cornell was pregnant.

So they would be able to confirm it.

She was certainly not pregnant, but of course the rumor was that she lied to pressure Norman into marrying her.

So what you know about Elsie, I have an opinion.

What's your opinion about, I don't know if this is victimology, but what do you think?

Well, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is in terms of now law enforcement is investigating this case.

And at a certain point, Elsie is indicating that she's pregnant.

From Norman's perspective, and maybe even from the parents' perspective, you know, when did L C conceive?

Did she visit Norman three months prior?

You know, and Norman say, yeah, we had sex, you know, and the parents said, yeah, she was out there three months ago.

Then I would expect, you know, at autopsy that they would be able to, even at this timeframe, to determine that, you know, she was pregnant.

But let's say she's only a couple of weeks along, right?

She's missed her period.

and at advanced state of decomposition, it may be tough, you know, for pathologists to conclude whether she's pregnant or not.

You know, so that's where I think, you know, first part of what I would drill down on with the medical side, but most certainly, you know, this is where, you know, at the very beginning, I could sense that this situation with Elsie, you know, Norman is feeling trapped.

And Elsie could be using, you know, this fake pregnancy as a way to further kind of capture Norman into maintaining a relationship with her.

Yeah.

For sure.

One of the things investigators do when he says that she had hanged herself was they start looking in his hut for evidence of a hanging.

So it sounds like Norman had said he found her hanging from the beams in the hut.

I'm assuming this hut looked to me like if that was the hut, low ceilings.

It seemed like, though, that might not be the first choice for someone to use it seems like it could be difficult would it be unusual to find somebody from a beam in the ceiling rather than like a doorknob or or something that's a little bit more accessible well you know and i think you just you know stated that yeah hangings can be accomplished from remarkably low items that all you have to do you can literally be laying down on the floor and just have let's say the ligature around the neck tied to a doorknob as you mentioned, versus, you know, the thing you typically see on TV shows or in the movies where somebody goes over a wood beam and is standing on a, you know, a stool and then kicks the stool away.

More of, you know, like being,

you know, hung, you know, in public executions.

So at least with cases, you know, that we typically see, you don't generally see the, you know, the hangings where somebody is, you know, hanging from something really high up.

I most certainly haven't had a case like that.

Plenty of textbook examples of that, though.

Okay.

Well, this is an experiment.

I always find experiments interesting.

This, I'm sure, would not be allowed in a court of law, and I don't think was in 1924.

So the investigators want to know whether or not there's evidence in the beams, like Norman said, of maybe grooves that have been kind of cut in or impressions made from this washing line that she used.

So, this is what they did.

They did a little experiment.

They filled sacks with weights equivalent to Elsie's body weight, and then they suspend these sacks from the beams using this same type of washing line.

They make a note of the grooves.

They must have taken photos that were in the beams.

And then they, of course, they search all the beams and they find no similar grooves in the beams.

That does not seem like a great experiment.

Am I wrong here?

Well, it's most certainly a step to take if you're looking, you know, for some evidence.

You know, if Norman's saying she was literally suspended from this washing line and it was tied around the beam, what kind of wood is it?

Does it compress?

You think about a beam with the hard corners, you know, the squared off corners, and you have this weight.

that is focused in that wood.

I would expect that there would be some evidence.

But maybe it's more of

the beam is more of like a log.

It's more circular.

Did she just step off of a chair and there's not a lot of swinging?

You know, maybe you're not going to see abrasive actions by this washing line.

And it comes down to how is the washing line actually, you know, secured to the beam.

I mean, there's a lot of variables here.

So it's, you know, the experiment that they did is a step to evaluate, but there's probably more steps that need to be thought of and looked at.

But I go, you know, back to the autopsy, and I know you're holding out on me with the neck injuries because, you know, what they see with the neck could be pretty diagnostic in terms of whether, you know, she was truly hanging with full body weight or she was.

strangled you know so that's where i'm kind of again i i'm kind of focusing in on what I think is going to answer the question.

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Well, just to wrap up the question about the beams, Norman's defense is later going to say this is all BS

because, you know, we weren't there to supervise the experiment number one.

And just like what you said, there are minute details about the weight distribution, the placement of the washing line, bodies are different than sacks full of weights.

I mean, all of that stuff.

So I think that was not allowed in or dismissed.

So don't worry about that too much.

There was a big question as they're going through their investigation about her mental health.

They said, you know, assuming that she was genuinely pregnant, which seems possible, would she actually take her own life and that of her unborn child's life?

I, to be honest, don't take that seriously at all.

I just think people can be in a desperate situation.

And I would never predict that a lot of the people that I read about would have reacted the way they reacted.

So I think, you know, in a high-pressure situation where she is feeling like she's having a mental break, nothing would surprise me.

But the investigators are saying, this is not really the way this woman would have reacted.

And I'm not so sure.

yeah you know that's so subjective yeah you know and oftentimes you know where there's these questionable deaths there's uh what's called a psychological autopsy where they do dig into the deceased mental state whether it be mental health issues what's going on in the victim's life at the time what prior psychological evaluations have occurred, you know, and these doctors, these PhD psychiatrists, you know, they have a background of dealing with a broad group of individuals where they can kind of say this person, the deceased, is demonstrating certain behaviors that would be consistent with somebody who is possibly going to take their life.

But you can't say it with any type of confirmation.

Okay.

We have to move on to stomach contents, which you and I both have said, I mean, varies.

You can tell me what you think about this.

The coroner says that after they analyzed Elsie's stomach contents, it looks like she had eaten around two hours before her death.

But I know that the rate of digestion can change based on the person or the food, all of that stuff.

So do you put much

veracity in that sort of a statement?

Two hours is when she ate?

No, I wouldn't, in terms of putting it at that specific of a figure, you know, it's more of has the stomach emptied?

Or is there still stomach contents that are recognizable foodstuffs, whether it be visibly recognizable or even microscopically recognizable?

And then the pathologist can say, based on sort of the averages, the last meal that the victim ate is consistent with whatever

the witness statements are saying.

But in terms of trying to predict, let's say, her actual time of meal without any other corroborating investigative evidence to suggest what time she last ate.

That's really tough, especially just to say it was about two hours ago.

Well, our barrister, Helena Normanton, who I respect incredibly, I think is really stretching here when I tell you what she says in a second.

So Norman says they ate dinner around 9.10 together.

Elsie stayed for dinner, even though, you know, they were arguing and everything.

And that put Elsie's death, if

this is right, and we know it's probably not, somewhere in 1040 to 1110.

But that's when Norman was picking up Elizabeth and her mother because it was a train.

It was on, you know, time.

There was a schedule there.

So it sounds like he could have been lying.

This is what Helena says.

If Norman killed Elsie Cameron, it must have been by inflicting upon her multiple injuries just after they ate and leaving her in a dying state so as to expire in his absence while he coolly coolly went off to meet the other girl and behaved in a manner which seems to have aroused none of her suspicions.

That seems pretty specific, especially when we're relying on something that's not particularly reliable.

Yeah, you know, and then, of course, the, you know, the details about multiple injuries to Elsie, you know, are those present at autopsy.

Even though we're dealing with a decomposed body, there could be still evidence of those injuries.

So it's corroborating, it's corroborating and refuting these statements and and taking a look at what the evidence says.

Okay.

Well, let's get to what the prosecutor, crown prosecutor, ends up doing.

He is ultimately arrested, of course, for her murder.

And a few months later in April, his case goes to trial and everybody starts, you know, searching for their experts.

From American Sherlock, Oscar Heinrich was asked by the prosecutor to come down for the David Lampson case, a man who was accused of murdering his wife in the bathtub.

And Oscar gets gets down to their little cottage where this takes place, and the blood is for him in all the wrong places.

And he tells the prosecutor, I don't think this was murder.

I think this was a slip and fall.

And now I'm going to go call the defense team.

So I wonder about that with experts.

You know, do you feel like most experts have that sort of integrity?

Oscar did not always have integrity, but do you feel like that?

Or do you think that they are truly, there are a lot of them that are truly kind of guns for hire hire and they'll say whatever, you know, the prosecutor or the defense team, whoever's got the money, they will say whatever they need to say.

Well, when you start talking about experts, you know, ethics is everything.

You know, and

it's experience, it's expertise, of course, you know, but it fundamentally does come down to ethics.

And unfortunately, there are individuals out there that will tailor their opinions based on who's paying them or if there's any other type of bias that they may have.

And even sometimes ethical experts may form an opinion that's incorrect, particularly when it is a subject matter that you don't have the black and white objective type of information to form your opinion with.

Well, we'll see.

We've got Bernard Spilsbury, who is the greatest pathologist in the history of pathologists, at least in the UK.

And he is very, very well known.

He, I believe, worked on the John Reginald Christie case, the one I mentioned before.

And he's popped up in several of our cases.

Now, Maren has said to me, this is going to drive you crazy.

She's convinced that there are autopsy photos out there of Elsie Cameron, but she wasn't able to find them.

And so that, of course, drove me crazy.

And I searched for them.

I couldn't find them.

So I wish we had photos because sometimes in this time period, we get well-documented photos.

So, you know, you're just going to have to go off of an incredibly well-versed, well-known pathologist who is going to be for this time period will have the most educated information for us.

We'll see.

Okay.

So this is what he said.

He looks at with a throat and the way that Norman says he cut up Elsie and he looked at it and he says she did not have rope markings on her neck.

There is a mark there and it's irrefutable.

He says it.

Everybody says it visible to anyone who saw her remains.

There's a mark there.

But he thinks it was a crease or like a wrinkle, anything that you'd find on a neck of a similarly aged person.

So it seems odd.

I know that she's decomposing, but would he really mistake a crease for a rope, you know, burn or impression, whatever that would have been in her neck?

That seems like two very different things to me.

Norman's describing what Elsie hung herself with as a washing line.

So I'm thinking that that this is a cordage that's roughly maybe a quarter of an inch in diameter.

Do we have any information more specific than it's just a washing line?

No, just a washing line.

And it doesn't talk about how thick it is or thin it is.

I mean, it could vary.

Well, this is where, you know, Norman statements in terms of how he found Elsie, and it sounds like she is fully suspended from a beam using this washing line.

Her entire body weight is now being focused on this very thin cordage around her neck.

These lines in a true full body weight hanging, these are very significant and deep furrows that are left behind in the tissues of the neck.

In addition, the structures inside the neck show damage.

So if Spilsbury is looking for these furrows under this type of hanging and he's not seeing anything like like that.

That's hugely significant from my perspective.

He's saying there's a mark.

Now, what is that mark?

Is it just something, you know, a normal crease in normal anatomy of the neck skin?

Or is it, you know, maybe an abrasion or something else that could have happened during a struggle?

You know, don't know, you know, especially without the photos.

But the lack of evidence of this ligature digging into Elsie's neck, I've got concerns.

Yeah.

And even if there were Paul, he could have done it.

He could have strangled her.

So let's say there's ligature strangulation.

That often is you've got a different configuration in terms of how the rope goes around the neck.

And there can be variants.

In a hanging, a full body weight hanging, that rope is going to be up under the jaw.

And if the person is like leaning kind of forward with the rope going up from behind, you'll see abrasions and everything else that show such a steep angle because the entire body weight is pulling that rope up versus strangulation.

It's more parallel, if you will, to the ground.

If I'm going to put somebody like in a standing position.

Now it will vary and you can also have it differ from side to side.

But a true full body weight hanging is pretty obvious looking.

That's where I'm going.

Okay, Spilsbury is, you know, he is a very experienced pathologist and he knows what to look for and he's not seeing that.

I'm thinking, I've got concerns about Norman telling the truth.

So let me tell you about the physical evidence that Spilsbury says to him proves that she did not take her own life with hanging.

And then I'll tell you what he says he sees probably happen to her.

Okay, so two different things for you to react to.

So here's the first thing.

He He said, of course, she's in a state of decomposition, so this makes it more difficult.

But he said that had she hanged herself, there would be bruises and blood leakage into the tissue around her neck.

Or he said, I would have seen signs of asphyxiation.

Do those make sense to you?

No, absolutely.

Okay.

You know, the signs of the blood and the tissues inside the neck.

as well as asphyxiation aspects.

You know, you're cutting off the blood flow to the brain.

You're increasing blood pressure initially when the heart is beating.

So now you get the blood vessels in the eyes starting to, you know, kind of burst, these little capillaries burst, and it's classic patychia, these little red dots, as well as other blood vessels and capillaries in the face.

And then the neck, you know, you've got this tremendous force, you know, full body weight hanging around the muscles inside the neck.

And so you'll see bruising where that, you know, that noose is digging in.

The trachea, the larynx can be damaged.

So this is where if all of this is absent,

I was thinking, well, maybe there is manual strangulation or ligature strangulation, but if he's not even seeing, you know, damage to the neck, nor, you know, the signs of asphyxiation, then maybe this is not a strangulation either.

Okay.

Now, this is not me holding out on you, but I did want to delay Spillsbury's observations because I think he is the most reliable source here.

And I think it would have been case closed if I had disclosed this earlier.

So, Spilsbury says, this is what I think happened.

Her glasses were broken nearby.

Her necklace was broken nearby.

He thinks that she was severely beaten and suffered a lethal head injury, which resulted in her dying of shock.

He says she had bruises on her ankles, her elbows, her shins, some hemorrhage inside her eyeballs, and a particularly large bruise on her head, which he says is a crushing blow.

And I was wondering if dismemberment could have caused any of this, but, you know.

Well, I would say that Spilsbury probably can account for what he can see in the tissues based off of the dismemberment.

Some of these bruises and stuff most certainly could indicate a struggle.

With what he is seeing internally is is that there's a significant blow.

And is this from a weapon?

Is this from her head being thrust up against the wall or down on the floor?

But it sounds like he is attributing her death possibly to the head injury.

And the other injuries indicate that there was a struggle between Norman and Elsie.

You know, this is homicide.

Yep, that's what he says.

So, of course, Norman's defense team disagrees.

They hire three well-known experts who, as you can imagine, are going to contradict everything that Spillsbury says.

They say that the marks on Elsie's neck are consistent with rope marks made by hanging, not wrinkles.

They were able to see the body.

several weeks after Spillsbury saw the body.

And the body had already been in the ground for several weeks.

So you have to think that they're, I don't know why they were so late to the game, but you have to think that the body had really decomposed at that point.

So I don't know.

Aside from the fact that they're contradicting, you know, this pathologist who is so well known, I don't know.

I guess I would think that, you know, they weren't given enough information to begin with because they were so late to the party here.

Well, it also could just be battle of the experts.

Yeah.

You know, the defense, you know, over here in the United States, the defense has to put on a

competent trial and find

experts to contradict somebody with the reputation of Spillsbury, you know, and whether or not these other medical experts or pathologists truly have any expertise, or if they do, are they altering their opinion?

Right now, at least with what you told me they said, I mean, it sure does not add up.

You know, this is, again, taking into, you have to take this in context with Norman's statement of how he found Elsie hanging.

She's not laying down on the ground from a doorknob.

She is hanging from the beam, full body weight hanging.

That is so informative to what kinds of injuries her neck is going to have.

And Spilsbury knows that.

And it would be very easy in this day and age to demonstrate that through photos of other cases.

And people would see, oh, yeah, that's unmistakable.

Well, let me just tell you for fun to, you you know, what they said.

First of all, one interesting piece of information is, you know, you had asked about whether the skull was fractured.

It was not.

One thing that the original coroner noted about Elsie and her body was that she had particularly delicate bones, so delicate that he pointed it out in this report, which had been documented in the autopsy.

And they were called as thin as blotting paper.

That's thin.

One of the experts for the defense said that if Elsie had been beaten to death and suffered a forceful blow to the head, surely her skull would have been fractured.

Does that make sense to you?

I don't think anybody could make that statement.

The observation of her being in anthropological terms, gracious versus robust, you could have like a very robust person, right, with robust structure.

And you can have somebody who's gracile or more petite in their structure.

And yes, there's mechanical advantages for strength purposes or resistance to forces with somebody who's more robust.

However, you know, the skull itself, we don't know the circumstances of how the hemorrhaging inside her brain occurred.

But the fact that the skull is not crushed in tells me, well, it's not that big of a force.

And it's probably a very broad surface that the skull is hitting.

It's not a narrow, it's not like a hammer with a very focused force that can, you know, punch through the skull.

You can have a significant blow.

And I'll use the example of somebody taking somebody's head and thrusting it really hard onto a floor.

It may not even lacerate the scalp.

However, the forces internal to the skull potentially could cause hemorrhaging in the brain, subarachnoid hemorrhaging.

And then so that's that autopsy where they will take the calbarium off, they take the brain out, and they can see the hemorrhaging inside and go, yes, definitely could be cause of death.

So Spilsbury, I think, is spot on.

You know, he's seeing something to his level of expertise, to his eyes, that is, it's significant enough to be a cause of death.

Well, the doctors say he's all wrong.

Of course, I mean, they're getting this body several weeks later.

One of them said the marks on her neck did have blood that leaked into the surrounding tissue.

So that is indicative of a hanging.

That Spilsbury exaggerated the bruising on Elsie's body.

He said that it might have been caused as Elsie's body fell to the floor after Norman cut the washing line that she was hanging from.

The hemorrhaging in her eyeballs, he said, could in fact be produced by a hanging.

So I'll pause there before we get to their theory about when she died and how she died.

Does any of that stuff add up?

For me to differentiate Spilsbury and what he is concluding versus these doctors, I'd have to see the photos, you know, and maybe even take those photos to a pathologist that I trust, if it's outside of my experience and expertise.

You know, this is where now it's so hard to differentiate that kind of detail.

You know, it's just Spilsbury is a very experienced and competent pathologist.

I don't know the background of these other doctors.

Are they even pathologists?

They are.

They're professional pathologists who have testified, you know, but again, even if they are being honest here, they're getting the body so many weeks later.

She had to be exhumed.

You know, her body was not being held in some secure area.

And also recognize, you know, right after she's recovered, technically there should have been an autopsy done.

Then you pull in this noted pathologist who's now doing his own assessment of the body.

And we don't know exactly to what extent he is altering the body.

And then the body goes into the ground, you know, and what kind of process did the body undergo?

You know, it's, it's dismembered.

They're not, you know, going to embalm this body.

How were these body parts handled before they were dug up?

So, you know, I think to your point, you know, you're recognizing, yes, the defense experts are having a

worse starting point, you know, in terms of what they might be able to see so many weeks later.

You know, they have to explain why there weren't clearer signs of damage to her neck and brain and lungs and all of that.

You know, everything that Spillsbury is saying should be there with a hanging that isn't there.

So this is what they say happened, the defense.

Instead of this being a simple hanging where she, you know, her neck breaks or she dies quickly, what they think happened was she was only partially suffocated by the time she was found by Norman.

He cut her down.

She was not dead.

She was unconscious.

He did not know.

He thought she was dead.

And they think she might have been alive for several more minutes and then died of shock, which is the only thing that they agree with Spillsbury on.

I mean, Spilsbury thought he hit her in the back of the head and she died of shock.

I mean, it's a possibility, you know, but that's where, you know, how long was he gone?

You know, when did she hang herself relative to when he came in the door?

Yeah.

I just go back to what I feel is the most objective objective evidence that contradicts Norman's statement about what happened.

And that has to do with Spilsbury's observation of the lack of a rope furrow, a lack to the damage to the neck structures, a lack of hemorrhaging to the strap muscles, you know, or any of the other neck structures.

And these other pathologists are trying to suggest that some of these other minor injuries to the neck area are consistent with a full body weight hanging.

I put so much more veracity on what I'm hearing from Spilsbury than these other doctors.

And it has nothing to do with Spilsbury's reputation.

I just know what he would be looking for, and he's not seeing it.

And I'm going, okay, she wasn't hanging the way Norman said she was hanging.

Whether she's alive or not when he cuts her down, I mean, that becomes trivial, you know, because I don't think he's cutting her down.

Yeah.

So thank goodness we're moving finally off of the medical stuff.

Norman takes the stand, idiot,

and he talks, I mean, this guy, he talks about his romances with both Elsie and Elizabeth, and he's definitely not doing himself any favors.

At one point, when he's asked which woman he likes more, he says, I do not know I was particularly desirous of marrying any at the time.

Of the two, I suppose I thought more of the other girl, which is Elizabeth.

And then Maren has a cheeky little note in here.

She said, of course, it's not exactly a heartwarming thing to hear from the lips of a man who had already severed one of the women's heads.

So, this is all to say, you know, even with the best argument from the pathologist that he hired, Norman is not looking very good.

I don't think things are going well for him with this trial.

No, you know, and they're hearing directly from him, you know, that he was partial to this other woman.

Yeah.

You know, and we just know in these lovers' triangles, you know, jealousy and rage often went out, you know, and this is where Elsie was putting demands on Norman that was going to impact his ability to continue having a relationship with Elizabeth.

I mean, we don't need to have motive in cases, but right there, the jury is hearing directly from Norman.

He has motive.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

So a couple of interesting notes, you know, before we get to the verdict.

One is that the judge, I mean, this was classic in the UK.

And I don't know in this time period if the the judges did this, but the judge says to the jury upon giving jury instructions, he says that Spillsbury's insight is, quote, the very best opinion that can be obtained.

I mean, how is that okay?

I probably agree with him, but these were similar instructions that the judge in John Reginald Christie's case in 1953 gave.

Very biased.

It was sort of like, here's your verdict.

I mean, this is who you should be listening to.

It's definitely biasing the jury.

You know, the jury is there to evaluate each of these experts and the veracity of each of their experts per their observations.

For the judge to come out and do that, obviously, I'm agreeing with what I'm hearing of Spilsbury's opinions, but completely inappropriate instructions to the jury.

Yeah, absolutely.

And grounds for an appeal, I would have thought.

The jury hands down a verdict, and it's probably no surprise that it's guilty.

And he is sentenced to death, which, you know, of course, there is, I will say, a little bit of a ruckus over whether or not the death penalty was appropriate in this case, because some people interpreted some reasonable doubt based on these three pathologists who took the stand on behalf of Norman.

Arthur Conan Doyle, you know, Sherlock Holmes author, was one of the people who said, this should not be an execution case.

This, you know, we need to look at the evidence.

And he was not saying Norman is not guilty.

He was saying, I don't think there's enough evidence to warrant this being a capital case.

So the public got involved.

It did not help Norman at all.

And he was hanged in April of 1925 at the age of 25.

He told his father in the last letter, two days before he's executed, he writes to his dad and he said, quote, never mind, dad, don't worry.

I am a martyr to Spillsburyism.

The interpretation is that, you know, Spillsbury is a man who so many people respect.

If he says you're guilty, you're guilty, regardless of if you are guilty or not.

Of course, I don't think you and I believe that, but that was his statement was that, you know, obviously he's blaming this pathologist for all of his woes.

Well, I mean, he's sitting there in court and he's hearing Spillsbury, you know, testify.

I got to think Norman didn't know, you know, what kind of evidence would would be present if Elsie had hung herself.

Yeah.

It's a, from my perspective, it's an obvious homicide.

I think whether it's a death eligible case, I think I don't know what the laws of England are in terms of differentiating a death sentence from, let's say, life without the possibility of being paroled.

Right.

But, you know, most certainly he's responsible, probably killed her that evening,

and try to cover it up by dismembering her body, getting rid of the evidence, sending letters back to the parents' house, you know, just to stage the scene.

Everything is pointing strong at Norman.

He lied and his, I would say, naive and ignorant perspective on what these crimes look like, he came up with a scenario that he didn't realize that pathologists would be able to differentiate what's going on.

He got caught.

You know, I was thinking, Paul is all of this started with her saying, I'm pregnant.

And now you're going to have to step up and be a man and marry me.

And if she really believed she was pregnant, then, you know, rightly so, and especially in this time period, I wonder what Norman's reaction was when he found out that she actually wasn't pregnant.

I don't know if he would have killed her.

I think he would have said, bug off.

I'm breaking up with you like many men did.

I'm leaving you and that's it.

But I think it was the pregnancy thing, the being trapped thing that triggered this.

I could be wrong.

He could have murdered many other people after this.

I don't know.

It does come down to, you know, kind of evaluating the violence he inflicted on Elsie.

Yeah.

Whether or not he felt trapped, it doesn't matter if Elsie's lying or not about her pregnancy.

Yeah.

You know, he acts out in a way that kills Elsie.

Yep.

And that just demonstrates a

certain type of criminal behavior that somebody down the road may be confronted with Norman's rage.

They got the right guy, came with the right verdict.

Now, whether or not he should have been executed, you know, I really can't say or weigh in on that.

It's just, I'm not shedding a tear for Norman, to be frank.

No, I mean, the UK doesn't have the death penalty any longer, but I do think that this is always a reminder, and I've said this with listeners all about too.

There are Elsie Camerons and Sarah Cornell's before them, and there are them that are going to happen tomorrow because of the vulnerability of women when they are pregnant and just the fear that comes up.

And so, you know, this is why I think cases like this are really important.

And this is why we're not going to do a story like this next week.

I need a break from, I mean, I really felt I needed a break after Sarah Cornell's case for that book, but I feel like we keep doing these stories.

And there's like, I hope people finally get it that women are really vulnerable when they're pregnant.

Sure.

No question about it.

So I'm looking forward to the different type of case you're going to bring me next week.

Yes, sir.

I'll see you then.

Sounds good.

Thanks, Kate.

This has been an Exactly Right Production.

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buried bones sources.

Our senior producer is Alexis Emorosi.

Research by Marin McClashin, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

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Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer.

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