Jane Goodall: 91 & Thriving

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Speaker 1 Hello, daddy gang. Welcome back to another episode of Call Her Daddy.
This week's guest is Jane Goodall. I am freaking out, okay? I am so excited for you to watch this episode.

Speaker 1 Jane has dedicated her life to science and has made groundbreaking discoveries. She is truly a trailblazer and has paved the way forward for generations of women.

Speaker 1 Before we get into this interview, I did want to take a moment to acknowledge that I think that this episode might be a little different than what you're used to on Call Her Daddy every week.

Speaker 1 I know a lot of you come here to get to know some of the biggest celebrities on a more intimate level.

Speaker 1 And it obviously doesn't hurt when they spill some tea, but Sometimes I think it's good to switch it up and step away from the conversations that we're having on social media constantly 24-7.

Speaker 1 And so I wanted to sit down with someone who has spent their life truly connected to the real world. And that is why this conversation with Jane is genuinely so special.
Dr.

Speaker 1 Jane Goodall is 91 years old, the oldest guest that we've had on Call Her Daddy. And the wisdom that she carries is unlike anything that I've ever experienced.
Sitting across from her, I felt it.

Speaker 1 Her presence, her perspective, it was so grounding in a way that I didn't realize I even needed. And I want you to feel that too today.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I suggest watching this episode alone, whether you are on a walk, you're at the gym, you're laying in bed, you're at your home, you're at work, whatever it be.

Speaker 1 I just ask that you give yourself the space to really absorb what she is saying because I promise it's worth it. So

Speaker 1 let's get into it.

Speaker 1 What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy.

Speaker 1 Dr. Jane Goodall, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

Speaker 2 Hi, hello.

Speaker 1 How are you doing?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, this is, I'm in the middle of an American spring tour. And it's pretty exhausting, to be honest.
Yesterday was super exhausting.

Speaker 1 Can you tell me a little bit about what you're doing?

Speaker 2 Well, what I'm doing is

Speaker 2 trying to help people understand that we're going through very dark times. And if we don't get together and start doing what each of us can to make the world a better place,

Speaker 2 you know, the future is very uncertain.

Speaker 1 That's why I'm really excited that you're here today, because I, you walk into a room and I can just feel your wisdom and the things that you have learned throughout your life.

Speaker 1 It's like an honor to even just get to sit down with you for an hour. I love how you're like working so hard.
And it's, isn't it your birthday tomorrow?

Speaker 2 It is my birthday tomorrow. Jane.

Speaker 2 It's another way of, you know, what do I have to do? What's the hardest thing I have to do is raise money for all the different projects.

Speaker 2 You know, and people think, oh, Jane must be wealthy. She gives these lectures.
She gets lots of money. Yes, but the money goes to our projects.

Speaker 1 Do you ever take time for yourself? Like, are you going to celebrate on your 91st birthday? What are we doing tomorrow, Jane?

Speaker 2 People like to celebrate my birthday the whole year, so I get all these birthdays and all these birthday cakes.

Speaker 1 I didn't bring you a cake today because I knew you always get cakes from people. So I brought you whiskey instead.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's super.

Speaker 1 You like whiskey, right?

Speaker 2 Yes, well, you know, my mother.

Speaker 2 She died when she was 98.

Speaker 2 And she was sharp to the end, although she had Parkinson's. But she couldn't, she just didn't drink water.
She said it didn't agree with her. I don't like much water either.
She couldn't drink wine.

Speaker 2 So her tipple was whiskey. So we made a thing that seven o'clock, wherever I was, I would raise a toast to her.

Speaker 1 That is so sweet. And I love that your mom was like, water doesn't agree with me.
I'm more of a whiskey gal. What is your favorite kind of whiskey?

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 2 not the very expensive malty ones. I hope you didn't get a very expensive whiskey.

Speaker 1 I got you one that's like, it's my favorite whiskey recently. It's this Japanese whiskey.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's very good.

Speaker 1 You'll be taking it home today.

Speaker 1 What did you do for your 90th birthday? That's a big one.

Speaker 2 That again was celebrated the whole year. The only thing I really, really liked was

Speaker 2 when I was greeted on the beach by 90 dogs.

Speaker 1 90 dogs.

Speaker 2 90 dogs.

Speaker 1 See, that's why I brought Henry today. I have not, I said to you, I said, I have not brought Henry in a while because you want to be respectful.
You don't know when people are dog people are not.

Speaker 1 And when I knew that you're a dog person, immediately, selfishly, I'm like, Henry needs to meet the great Jane. Like, I was like, you have to meet him and he needs to meet you.
90 dogs.

Speaker 1 Who facilitated that?

Speaker 2 90 dogs. And it was in Carmel, Carmel on the Sea.
It was an off-leash part of the beach.

Speaker 2 And And everybody brought their dogs. And so I was throwing sticks in the sea.
And then it began to rain, and then it stopped raining. And it was just amazing.
It was wonderful.

Speaker 1 I like believe maybe that's like a part of what heaven feels like. It's just like you open your eyes and there's just dogs everywhere, happy, running free.

Speaker 2 And we've got a great photo of all the owners with their dogs and me sitting in front with the sea behind us. It's a great photo.

Speaker 1 I love it. You mentioned you travel 300 days a year for work.

Speaker 1 Jane, I get exhausted from a week of travel. Like, what is your secret? How do you do it?

Speaker 2 Well, I do it because I have to. You know, I've

Speaker 2 it

Speaker 2 probably sounds strange to you, but I've now, by now being, you know, 90, I feel that I was put on this planet with a mission. And right now, as I said, we're going through dark times.

Speaker 2 And the big problem is people are losing hope. Many people come up to me and say, Well, I look around at all that's going wrong in the world and I just feel helpless.

Speaker 2 And, you know, so I say, well, you can't solve the problems of the world, but what about where you live, your community? Is there something there?

Speaker 2 You feel you might like you don't like litter on the on the on the pavement or you don't like uh they're planning to dig up a little forest to put yet another supermall

Speaker 1 go and do something about it but you saying that you feel like you've been put on this earth with this mission like does it ever feel

Speaker 1 like too much of a burden to carry on your own and

Speaker 2 how as much as you put into it if you're not getting out of it like do you ever become exhausted well the thing is you know this mission keeps me going because there's so much to do yeah and if we lose hope we're doomed because if you lose hope, you become apathetic and do nothing.

Speaker 2 But I'm not alone. You know, the Jane Goodall Institute is now in 25 countries, different chapters.

Speaker 2 And in addition, there's our programme for young people, Roots and Tutes, which is humanitarian and environmental. And that's in 75 countries.
Wow.

Speaker 1 How incredible that

Speaker 1 you have left such a legacy that whether you were doing it or not doing it, it will now live on forever, hopefully.

Speaker 2 You said you have left. I'm not dead yet.

Speaker 1 No, I'm saying if you left and stopped, Jane, I mean, if you left and you decided, like, it's time to retire, like, I want to just go and relax on a beach somewhere.

Speaker 1 Like, if you decided to not do it, like, that is, I feel like the test of a real legacy is knowing that it is going to just keep living on because you've like touched so many people.

Speaker 2 No, not yet. I mean,

Speaker 2 I can't retire as long as as long as I can, you know.

Speaker 2 And if I become physically disabled, if my brain works, I want to do more writing because I love writing.

Speaker 1 Your little friend sitting next to you, what is his name again?

Speaker 2 Mr. H.

Speaker 1 Mr. H.

Speaker 1 Okay, I need this story because I wanted to ask you, obviously, you've had such an incredible career, but for some of my younger audience who maybe are becoming fans of you today or are fans of you, can you talk about like how you got into what you do and what you love?

Speaker 1 And also how does Mr. H play into your story?

Speaker 2 Okay, well, let me deal with Mr. H first.
Okay, let's get it. I can put him away.
Perfect. Mr.
H was given to me 34 years ago by a man who thought he was giving me a stuffed chimpanzee.

Speaker 2 His name is Gary Horne. He was blinded in the U.S.
Marines when he was 21. Anyway, he thought he was giving me a stuffed chimp and I made him hold the tail.

Speaker 2 I said, Gary, chimps chimps don't have tails. He said, never mind, take him with you and you know my spirits with you.
So he's been with me to 64 countries and he's extremely famous.

Speaker 2 And if you touch him, I say if you stroke him, the inspiration rubs off. So you asked how I got into it.
Well, I was born loving animals.

Speaker 2 And the most important thing in my young childhood was my mother, because she supported me.

Speaker 2 So when I was one and a half years old, I don't remember this, but she told me, she came into my room and found I'd taken a whole handful of wriggly earthworms to bed.

Speaker 2 And instead of getting angry like most mothers, because, you know, she just said, she told me later, Jane, you were looking so intently. I think maybe you were wondering how they walk without legs.

Speaker 2 So we took them back into the earth.

Speaker 2 Anyway, the point of that is that was the making of a little scientist, asking questions, not getting the answer, deciding to find out for yourself, making a mistake, not giving up and learning patience.

Speaker 2 And a different mother might have crushed that early curiosity. And I might not be talking to you now.

Speaker 1 I feel like there's so many people that could be listening that

Speaker 1 envy that, right? Because so much of when you're young, you're able to flourish based off of the environment that you grow up in.

Speaker 1 And there's a lot of kids that dream of things, and maybe it's cute when they're young, but as they start to get old, then the adults are like, That's not realistic.

Speaker 1 You can't make a career out of that, right?

Speaker 2 That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 When you told people that your dream in life was to go to Africa and to research,

Speaker 1 what was their reaction?

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Speaker 1 When you told people that your dream in life was to go to Africa and to research, what was their reaction?

Speaker 2 We have to remember to start with, I grew up in the war. Started when I was five.
And, you know, we didn't have much money. My father went off to join the army.

Speaker 2 And we went to live with my grandmother. It was house of women.

Speaker 2 And me and my sister, my mother, and her two sisters, and my grandmother.

Speaker 2 And because there was no television back then, hadn't been invented, which young, you probably find it hard to imagine, don't you?

Speaker 1 I find it hard, but I feel like I talked so much to my grandmother about her life because I just naturally want to know about people's life experiences.

Speaker 1 So if anything, I think there's a part now where we envy that. And I know that probably sounds weird.

Speaker 1 We're like, I envy the older generations having a much more like simplistic lifestyle because I do think it's kind of like corroding our brains in a capacity.

Speaker 2 No doubt. Yeah.
But anyway, you know, so I learned from being outside with nature, watching the squirrels and the birds garden in England and from books. I love books.

Speaker 2 Do you know Dr. Dolittle?

Speaker 1 Yes, of course.

Speaker 2 Well, I found the book of Dr. Doolittle when I was eight.
It came from the library. And then I used to save up just a few pennies of pocket money.
My sister bought sweets with them. I saved them.

Speaker 2 And I found a little second-hand bookshop. And I was 10 years old, and I found this tiny, cheap edition of Tarzan of the Apes.
Well, you know, no TV, Tarzan, no film, just the book.

Speaker 2 So I fell in love with this glorious lord of the jungle. And what did Tarzan do? He married the wrong Jane.

Speaker 2 So anyway, I knew there wasn't a Tarzan. That's when my dream began.
I will grow up, go to Africa, live with wild animals and write books. No thought of being a scientist.
No thought of, you know.

Speaker 2 And everybody said, that's ridiculous. I mean, you don't have money.
Africa's far away. And you're just a girl.
Not my mum.

Speaker 2 She said, if you really want to do something like this, you're going to have to work really hard. Take advantage of every opportunity.
And if you don't give up, hopefully you find a way.

Speaker 2 And that's the message I take around the world, particularly in disadvantaged communities. And I wish mom was alive.
And maybe she's listening.

Speaker 2 The number of people who said, Jane, I want to thank you. You've taught me because you did it.
I can do it too.

Speaker 1 I'm curious if you saw, because it's incredible the way you're speaking about your mom and how impactful she was in giving you this confidence to go forward with your dream. Did you see your mom

Speaker 1 living her life the way that she encouraged you to do it? Because I feel like sometimes with generations, it's like they didn't get to do certain things.

Speaker 1 So then they're like with their kids, they're like, go and do it and do it all. I wish I could have.
Like, was your mom someone that got to live out her dreams?

Speaker 2 Well, unfortunately, unfortunately, you know, she had two sisters and a brother.

Speaker 2 She was the third. So the brother went on to be a surgeon, a brilliant surgeon.
And her older sister was the first person to be qualified,

Speaker 2 first girl to be qualified as a physiotherapist. And mom was also going to college to do music.
But the war came and her father died. And sorry, not the war, it was her father dying.

Speaker 2 And then there was no money left. So she couldn't go to college.
So she became a secretary. So she had a good life, but not the life that she probably would have dreamed of.
So I was lucky.

Speaker 1 So my dream came true. Yeah, and I'm sure there was something, I mean, I'm not.

Speaker 1 a mother, but from what I can understand and talking to so many women who have children, like there is something innately in you that you want your child to have a better life than you, have even more experiences and more opportunities.

Speaker 1 And it's just, I think, it's beautiful to hear the way that you speak about your mother and how much she was willing to sacrifice in her life to make sure that you got what you needed.

Speaker 2 Parents, parents need to be supportive. You know, okay, so you're a little boy of three.
I'm going to be an engine driver. Oh, don't be silly.

Speaker 2 You're not going, but why not say, wow, you'll be a fabulous engine driver, the best engine driver, because you know they won't be an engine driver,

Speaker 2 but make them feel good.

Speaker 1 But I bet that's what your mom and her brain were like, oh, there's no way Jane's actually going to go to Africa. There's no way she's, and then you did it all.

Speaker 1 How often do you think in your career were you

Speaker 1 prejudged for

Speaker 1 being a woman and the way that you looked and then slowly you were able to garner the respect because of the work you were putting in?

Speaker 2 Well, I think I was kind of lucky because it wasn't a male-dominated field because there weren't

Speaker 2 nobody really was going out at that time. Now, of course, everybody is studying animals.
Back then, there were two primate studies and a giraffe study. Most studies were in captivity.

Speaker 2 And so everybody, you know, it was... It wasn't like it is today.
Yeah. And I was really lucky.
I had the whole feel. I mean, nobody had studied chimps in the wild.

Speaker 1 But studying chimps in the wild, like

Speaker 1 I need to

Speaker 1 understand

Speaker 1 from your perspective, you weren't going into a lab. You're going into the wilderness.
You're going to be surrounded by animals. At the time, you had no formal training.
Like,

Speaker 1 were you scared at all or did you have any hesitations?

Speaker 2 No, I wasn't scared. It was my dream, remember.
And

Speaker 2 there were two problems. First, money, always money, because I mean, as you say, I wasn't trained, hadn't been to college, but finally got money for six months from an American philanthropist.

Speaker 2 And second,

Speaker 2 it was Tanganyika back then, Tanzania today,

Speaker 2 and the British authorities said, we won't take responsibility. This is a stupid idea.
Young girl going in the forest. In the end, they said, oh, all right, but she can't come alone.

Speaker 2 That was when my amazing mother volunteered to come.

Speaker 2 That's incredible.

Speaker 2 And we, you know, our expedition was a shoestring. We had one old second-hand tent between us.

Speaker 2 We had to take a cook.

Speaker 2 And we had scant supplies, but I was, you know, up in the hills every day.

Speaker 1 You were 26 years years old. Like that is so

Speaker 1 incredible to know that you basically took a pretty untraditional trajectory with your life and you took a risk and you went for something that you know you were passionate about.

Speaker 1 Could you give any of my listeners

Speaker 1 We have a lot of young women listening who maybe they're thinking right now of like, should I take a risk, whether it's with their career or their life trajectory, whatever it be.

Speaker 1 Like, do you have any advice in taking risks as a young adult?

Speaker 2 Well, I can only think of the advice my mother gave me. You know, if you want to do something, work hard and take advantage of opportunity.

Speaker 2 The key thing is you've got to know you really want to do it. So today, you know, people take gap years.

Speaker 2 And that's really good because you can find out, is this really what I want to spend my life doing?

Speaker 2 And also, I meet young people and they're perhaps in their their second year at university and they say, well, you know, I actually made a mistake, but I can't change now.

Speaker 2 Well, that's the biggest mistake because if this is going to be the rest of your life, change now while you can into a different,

Speaker 2 you know, different career path.

Speaker 1 It's such a great lesson because I feel I feel like there's two types of people growing up.

Speaker 1 Either there's the person similar to yourself where you have this unwavering, undying love for something that you just know innately in your soul.

Speaker 1 Like, I have been called to do this, I want to do this. And then there are people who are a little lost or confused.
And that is also a very normal path.

Speaker 1 And they have to find what they love and they have to find what they're passionate about.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of times people in that category find themselves just trying to do things that other people are doing around them because, oh, well, my friend's doing this. Maybe I will do it.

Speaker 1 And it's hard to just originally find what makes you happy.

Speaker 1 So I love that advice of like, if you genuinely to your core know that this isn't what you want, well, first you need to just try it to know you don't want it and to go for it first.

Speaker 1 And then if you hate it. Yep.

Speaker 2 And, you know, there's another thing that some women really want to be homemakers. And yet it's it's getting so that they're despised.

Speaker 2 You want to stay at home and you want to cook and you want to look after your children instead of being out there having a career and, you know, standing up shoulder to shoulder with your male counterparts.

Speaker 2 Well, that's wrong too. Because

Speaker 2 if that makes you really happy, then

Speaker 2 your children will be happy. Your husband, if you have one, or your boyfriend, or whoever, probably will be happy.
And happiness is so important.

Speaker 2 It's the king of Bhutan who made this happiness index.

Speaker 2 And it's fascinating to see, you know, that getting more and more money and more and more fame and more and more, you know, doesn't necessarily make people happy.

Speaker 1 I think that's a very important topic that you just brought up that I think would be very helpful for people listening also about feeling like...

Speaker 1 you know, being a stay-at-home mom in a beautiful way. I think there's a lot of women who are now trailblazing in specific industries.

Speaker 1 And that's obviously such an incredible accomplishment that women are even allowed to sit next to men in rooms now. But I also think that there is no doubt that being a mother is a full-time job.

Speaker 1 And to not acknowledge the women who are fulfilled by that is also putting women down in a different capacity.

Speaker 2 It is in a different way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And you know, if we go back to the child, if the most important thing for the child is to be supported by two, three, four people who are consistently there, it doesn't have to be the biological mother.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I met the chief of a Latin American indigenous tribe, and he said to me, He said, Jane, we see our tribe as like an eagle.

Speaker 2 One wing is male, the other wing is female, and only when they're equal will the tribe fly high.

Speaker 2 Jane.

Speaker 1 I just want to pause. Like, I wish everyone could hear that.
That's incredible.

Speaker 1 And yet so many people don't believe that.

Speaker 2 No, they don't. And you know, the thing is, there are female characteristics and male characteristics.
We all have both.

Speaker 2 But basically, we need both.

Speaker 2 We need the sort of more

Speaker 2 dominating male characteristics to stand up to things in life that might knock us down. But we need the more nurturing

Speaker 2 role of the woman. We need both.

Speaker 1 We do. And I feel like especially in the like social and political climate right now, the brute is

Speaker 1 being rewarded and people think that being tough and masculine and aggressive is the way to always go. And we always see the pendulum swing.

Speaker 1 Like once we've had enough of that, then we will go back to the nurturing. And if we were able to establish a more like coexisting life,

Speaker 1 then both things could be present at the same time. But I feel like we're going so far to one side that then we almost feel like we have to overcorrect and go to the other.
And it's exhausting.

Speaker 2 But, you know, it's so sad. I've lived long enough to see this pendulum swing, moving towards, oh, we need more males.
We need in this society, we need,

Speaker 2 you know, a masculine society to deal with what we're going through. That's not right.

Speaker 1 It's not. And I can't imagine the

Speaker 1 feeling it evokes in you to have watched women start to

Speaker 1 garner more rights, only for it to almost be taken away to the point that we're losing more than previous generations.

Speaker 1 Before us something I was thinking about with your career also is, you you know, you talked about how there was no one really, it wasn't even a male-dominated field. It wasn't a field.

Speaker 1 And so you were venturing into this unknown territory. Yes, yes, which is exciting and exhilarating.
But I'm curious about the aspect of isolation. Like, in any

Speaker 2 form

Speaker 1 and time during your career where you're experiencing being alone in these pretty intense moments, like, did you feel lonely or were you just alone?

Speaker 2 No, I've never felt lonely. And

Speaker 2 some of the happiest days of my life, I did eventually get a degree in Cambridge.

Speaker 2 And then I went back to Gombi, you know, the chimp study.

Speaker 2 And I could spend hours and hours alone in the rainforest learning, yes, more about the chimpanzees, but also about this complex ecosystem where every plant and animal has a role to play and they're all interdependent.

Speaker 2 And what I discovered was that if you're out in a beautiful place with someone, someone you love or, you know, your family or something, then it's human beings in a beautiful environment.

Speaker 2 But when I was alone, there was...

Speaker 2 I wasn't, it was just, I was part of that world, not separated from it by being a human in that world.

Speaker 2 It's hard to explain, and it didn't happen that often, but when it did, it was a very basically spiritual experience.

Speaker 1 Understandably, I'll never probably understand like the level that you're describing of being immersed in that world and being alone. But I think we can all relate on some level of...

Speaker 1 If you do go watch a sunset by yourself and you're sitting in a canyon or your backyard and you're alone, And when you do things solo, there is like a deeper connection that you have.

Speaker 1 If you take a walk on the beach and there's no one there, if you're in water and you're alone, like there is being alone has so much power because you're really forced to also like connect with all of your senses.

Speaker 1 But it's so rare, I believe, that the recent generations are doing that because they've always got the phone and they have

Speaker 1 yes, oh yes, that thing, Jane, that thing. Could you give any advice on

Speaker 1 how can young adults get more comfortable with being alone?

Speaker 2 I mean, are you alone if you're always on Facebook or Instagram or video games? Are you really alone? No. Not really.

Speaker 1 No, because I think something that I envy, honestly, and I'm sure there are going to be people listening to this, that it's almost like it can make people emotional is like the way that you talk about this like genuine

Speaker 1 happiness and this

Speaker 1 connectivity you felt in your life to being at a place in time where you were so immersed in a world and completely disconnected from humanity and all those things that really bring just more crap to our lives and moments.

Speaker 1 Yes, it's beautiful to connect with humans, but we rarely are alone.

Speaker 1 I feel like there's a lot of young kids that feel like they're alone and they're laying in their bed, but then they're scrolling and they're watching other people.

Speaker 1 And so they're just observing what other human beings are doing and what other people are feeling and talking about. And you're just not actually having to self-reflect in any capacity.

Speaker 1 You're actually just like consuming an exorbitant amount of content that is then like shaping the next hour of your life.

Speaker 1 And then you're standing up and you feel depressed and you're curious as to why you don't feel fulfilled.

Speaker 1 And it's like, because you just watched everyone else living and you just sat and consumed it for hours. Now go live your life.
And I think that's what's so

Speaker 1 incredible about your story and your journey is how much you went and have lived and experienced and you love life.

Speaker 1 Can you share with me the moment that you obviously had this incredibly huge breakthrough discovery when you observed a chimpanzee using tools in the wild?

Speaker 1 What does that moment mean to you still to this day?

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Speaker 1 You obviously had this incredibly huge breakthrough discovery when you observed a chimpanzee using tools in the wild. What does that moment mean to you still to this day?

Speaker 2 Well, it was, you know, for the first four of my six months' money, the chimps. ran away.
I mean, they just vanished into the forest. And I just had to learn from a distance with binoculars.

Speaker 2 And then one chimpanzee began to lose his fear and let me get a bit closer and he had beautiful white hair on his chin. I called him David Greybeard.

Speaker 2 And on this day

Speaker 2 I was walking through the forest and I saw him sitting on a termite mound. So he was pulling out this with termites hanging on and eating them.

Speaker 2 And sometimes he was picking leafy twigs, then he had to strip the leaves to make a tool. And the reason this was so exciting is that at that time,

Speaker 2 it was thought by Western science that only humans used and made tools. We were defined as man, of course, man, the toolmaker.
And so when I wrote to my mentor, Louis Leakey, he was just so excited.

Speaker 2 And so, as we're defined as man, the tool maker, he said, we must redefine tool, redefine man, or accept chimpanzees as humans.

Speaker 2 And that was when the National Geographic stepped in and said, well, Jane's money runs out. We'll continue to support her.
And so then I could relax.

Speaker 2 And really, I got to know those chimpanzees almost like members of my family.

Speaker 1 You have had so many moments in your career where you've had to walk into rooms

Speaker 1 and explain something that maybe people had never heard before, where you're like, no, trust me, I saw it, this is what happened. And I think a lot of that takes,

Speaker 1 yes, having the truth on your side, but confidence to be able to walk into a room and do that. Like, do you have advice for women listening of how

Speaker 1 they can advocate for themselves? in an intimidating work situation.

Speaker 2 Well, I've been intimidated. Don't worry.
The first time I had to give a lecture, I thought I would die. And for the first, I don't know, it seemed forever I couldn't even breathe, but nobody noticed.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 basically,

Speaker 2 because I was so terrified of speaking in public, I practiced and I made a vow. I will never read a speech.
And I won't say um and uh.

Speaker 2 And if you listen, you find I very sell in the odd um, but basically, I don't. And so my advice to people is, you know, be sure of what you're going to say.

Speaker 2 And if necessary, practice. Like before every lecture, even if I've given the same one

Speaker 2 for the previous week, I always write down the point. So my mind is totally focused.
And always remember, you've given this speech before, but now you're talking to people who haven't heard it.

Speaker 2 So you've got to put the same enthusiasm.

Speaker 1 Like, I think there's a lot of people that are crippled with that anxiety of, like, I can't, I can't, I can't. Like, where do you internally go when you need to push through in moments?

Speaker 2 Well, I don't really know that first time. I did it because I had to do it.
Geographic, it was for the National Geographic. It was to 5,000 people in Constitution.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 if I didn't, you know, the geographic were paying for my field research. I had some students by then, and I had to do it.
So you do what you have to do, right? So I knew I had to do it. I practiced,

Speaker 2 and I just felt

Speaker 2 I can't let Leakey down, I can't let the geographic down.

Speaker 2 So you just grit your teeth. I mean, it's a bit like going to the dentist.
You don't really look forward to it, but you have to do it.

Speaker 2 But you say to yourself, you know, I'll be really brave and it will be over.

Speaker 1 That's so real, though, because then once it's over, you're like, oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.

Speaker 2 Well, I found I could do it, you see.

Speaker 1 Can we talk about the National Geographic? You were on the cover, and the first cover you had, there was this intense focus.

Speaker 1 First, well, it was obviously supposed to be about the work and your research, but there was an intense focus around

Speaker 1 you and how you looked and your body.

Speaker 1 What types of comments were people making about you?

Speaker 2 Well, some of the jealous male scientists will say, well, you know, she's just got this notoriety and she's getting money from geographic and they want her on the cover and they wouldn't put her on the cover if she didn't have nice legs.

Speaker 2 So if somebody said that today, they'd be sued, right? Back then, all I wanted was to get back to the chimps. So if my legs were getting me the money, thank you, legs.

Speaker 2 And if you look at those covers, they were jolly nice legs.

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. It's so typical, though, right? Like, try to discredit a woman because, well, she got there because of what she was wearing and her looks and blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 Like, it's, it's actually like the most obvious, weakest response to something.

Speaker 1 How do you think

Speaker 1 women can flip the script and use the way that people sexualize us and objectify us to our advantage?

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know, I did it by accepting that in a way they were right. So thank you.
Thank you for giving me this advantage.

Speaker 2 That's good to give me the money. But, you know, okay, I know that for me, it was a long time ago.
It was a different era.

Speaker 2 It wouldn't work today.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 all I can think of is, I don't know. I mean, you'd be better to give advice.
What advice would you give?

Speaker 1 I mean, it's hard because I think there's a line of like how far you lean into

Speaker 1 how much people sexualize us as women. And I think that

Speaker 1 there's going to innately be moments where you, someone says something inappropriate to you at work, or a man is trying to discredit you because your work can't be that good it's because you're hot and because people are giving you the position because of the way you look i think a lot of it in what we're talking about and it's kind of the theme of this episode actually just comes back to like how are you internally good with yourself and do you know your worth do you know your value and are you capable of standing in a room and as uncomfortable as comments can be, you leave and you don't feel like those knocked you down.

Speaker 1 If anything, you're able to take it, recognize the game that they're playing, but keep it moving because

Speaker 1 you're confident in what you bring to the table. And yeah, you may also be very attractive and that's okay.

Speaker 2 That's another gift. There we go, Jane.
It's a gift.

Speaker 2 You know, I've always got on super well with men. And

Speaker 2 nowadays, they say,

Speaker 2 we're doing a photo and they say,

Speaker 2 can I touch you? And I'm thinking, yeah, I say, hug me me if you like.

Speaker 1 Like, give me a hug.

Speaker 2 Yeah, mind you, women want to hug me too. That's fine.
Anybody can hug me. I need hugs.

Speaker 1 Okay, I'll give you a hug after that.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Can we talk a little bit about relationships? You ended up marrying a photographer from National Geographic. Can you tell me the story of how you two met?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 after

Speaker 2 I was finding out exciting things about the chimps and they were getting habituated to humans, the geographic, obviously, you know, that's the, they live on it, they wanted to make a film and they wanted good photographs.

Speaker 2 So they sent Hugo van Loewick.

Speaker 2 And I really didn't want him to come. I hadn't met him because I...
I just wanted to be there with the chimps, you know, I didn't want anybody. And I was afraid they'd be scared of him.

Speaker 2 And, you know, all my hard work would be undone.

Speaker 2 But as it was he came he loved animals he'd always wanted to be out there with them his route was photography yeah and we got on fine and and he you know it was thanks to his photos and film that everything i was saying about the chimps was corroborated and so he really really helped to

Speaker 2 to share the knowledge that chimpanzees really are like us. They really do have gestures and postures the same as ours that mean the same thing.

Speaker 1 I know that you kind of have said

Speaker 1 previously that you and your husband at the time drifted apart because your careers were moving in different directions. And I'm curious, like,

Speaker 1 how did you navigate? Because it's a very relatable topic, like navigating deciding between work and relationships. Like, how did you do that?

Speaker 2 Well, it ended ended gradually, and it ended because

Speaker 2 the geographic stopped paying Hugo to come to Gombi.

Speaker 2 He had to go on with his career, and he got some money to do films on the Serengeti.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I couldn't leave Gombi. I had to stay.
I mean, I was totally, you know, I couldn't leave Gombi. And so it slowly...
drifted apart and it was sad.

Speaker 2 And I think we did the right thing, but we kind of had to do it. You know, I definitely wish we could have carried on with that marriage because it was a good one.

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Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 1 it's the shopping season, and I love to buy clothes and things and treats and gifts and it's like I get so giddy during this time.

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Speaker 1 What do you think is your favorite part of aging and getting older as a woman?

Speaker 2 I don't think there's a favorite part of aging, quite honestly.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 I suppose, okay, if you look at it philosophically, the longer you live, the more you learn. And I don't like a day that I don't learn something, even a little thing.

Speaker 2 And the other thing is, you know, when you get older, you

Speaker 2 learn, well, I do, you learn more about what's going on in the rest of the world and how to interact with people. And basically,

Speaker 2 it would be nice if you didn't get old.

Speaker 1 It would be nice, Jane.

Speaker 1 We talked a little bit about earlier in the episode when we were talking just about how

Speaker 1 You really talk so much about hope and how important it is to have hope. And I think a lot of my listeners feel anxious and lost right now because of what is happening in the world.

Speaker 1 Like, do you have any message

Speaker 1 of how to stay hopeful?

Speaker 2 Yes, I do. That's my job now.
Okay. Tell us.
That's my actual job. Okay.
So,

Speaker 2 you know, I have my reasons for hope. Number one, I mentioned it's the young people.
So this Roots and Chutes program began in 1991 with 12 high school students in Tanzania.

Speaker 2 It's now got members from kindergarten, very strong in university, everything in between.

Speaker 2 More and more young adults are forming groups. We even get groups in old people's homes.
So it's broadened out and it's different from other programmes because

Speaker 2 because of learning, everything's interrelated.

Speaker 2 Every group chooses, well, the little ones can't choose, but once you get to middle school, they choose a project to help people, a project to help animals, a project help the environment, and they share this with each other.

Speaker 2 And once they roll up their sleeves, they work very hard because they chose the project.

Speaker 2 they're making a difference.

Speaker 2 They're planting trees, they're picking up trash, they're raising money to help refugees, they're volunteering in soup kitchens or animal shelters.

Speaker 2 And the main message of Roots and Shoots, which is for everybody,

Speaker 2 every day you live, you make an impact on the planet, and you have to choose what sort of impact you make. So, all around the world now, in 75 countries, young people are changing the world.

Speaker 2 And once they know the problems, and that's important, but then you empower them to take action in ways that they choose, They just, they're just, I mean, I go around visiting them and they're so full of enthusiasm.

Speaker 2 And, you know, so yes, we've got to create a world where their hope is viable.

Speaker 2 Next reason for hope is this extraordinary intellect that we have. And note, I don't call it intelligence because if we were intelligent, we would not be destroying our home, our only home.

Speaker 2 And sadly, we haven't always used our intellect wisely. We've forgotten the indigenous wisdom of saying, How does this decision affect generations in the future?

Speaker 2 How does it affect me now, my family now, my next political campaign, the next shareholder meeting? We've gone into a materialistic, very often greedy society, and we need to change.

Speaker 2 But this intellect is beginning to tell us what we need to do, how to do it, creating, you know, like alternative energy, for example.

Speaker 1 I am so

Speaker 1 honored that I got to sit down with you today. You

Speaker 1 and the way that you look at life is so inspiring. And I think I will admit, like, I'm a businesswoman running around all day, and I have meetings and I'm trying to do all these things.

Speaker 1 And it is very humbling, honestly, to sit with someone like you who has

Speaker 1 such the right

Speaker 1 understanding of what we should be prioritizing in life.

Speaker 1 And of course, everyone has different priorities of what will make them happy, but we have gotten so materialistic and we have gotten selfish and we have lost our way.

Speaker 1 And understandably, it's difficult because if you're a young woman sitting at home watching this right now, like, do you have that? It doesn't feel like there's much you can do.

Speaker 1 And I think today it's such a perfect example of like, but you can get involved and you can do something because something that stuck with me is like, these are people who are so happy.

Speaker 1 And why are they happy? Because they're doing something good and they're giving back. We all know how it feels on the most vain level to like give a gift to someone.

Speaker 1 It's always better to give than receive because you're like, oh my gosh, I feel that feeling can ignite something in future generations of coming together and making a difference because it is going to impact my children and then the next generation of children and so forth.

Speaker 1 So So, thank you so much for taking your time today. I know you were very busy, and I'm just honored that I got to sit down with you, Jane.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 I've had a great time talking to you and meeting Henry. Let's make Henry come and say goodbye.
Where is he? Henry! Henry, come! Henry, Henry!

Speaker 2 There he is!

Speaker 2 Yes, come and say goodbye. Say hi, Henry.
Come and say goodbye. See ya.
Hi, Jane. It's been so nice sharing all this time with you.

Speaker 2 Oh, good boy.

Speaker 2 Goodbye.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Good boy, Henry.

Speaker 1 We did it.

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