#387 Todd Davis: Inside 30 Years at FranklinCovey—What Most Leaders Still Get Wrong — Part One

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Hi everyone, welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer.

I'm Vince Chen,

your ambitious human host.

Our show

is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world.

Today, we are talking about leadership, trust, and why AI still can do what humans do best.

My guest is Todd Davis, former Chief People Officer.

at Franklin Covey, a publicly listed leadership training company.

Cold is the expert behind the bestseller, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and has spent 30 years coaching leaders and managers on how to actually work well with people.

In this two-part series, we get into the real stuff.

Why most leaders think they are clear in communicating and giving instructions, but they aren't.

How trust is built like a bank account, and why human intelligence is still the biggest competitive advantage.

Oh, there's a wild story about these seven habits changing someone's life

in the prison.

Let's dive right in.

Todd, good afternoon.

Welcome to our show.

Welcome to Chief Change Officer.

Thank you, Vince.

Really appreciate your invitation.

Todd Davis is from Franklin Covey, a name that's practically a household brand in the U.S.

When it comes to leadership training, Franklin Covey is like Starbucks.

Everyone knows it.

At some point, almost everyone has either read one of the books or attended one of the trainings through the employers.

And of course, one of the best-selling books in history is The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.

Honestly, who doesn't want to be more effective.

But let's be real.

Workplaces today are facing big challenges.

So I wanted Todd to join me and talk about how these habits can help solve or at least alleviate some of these issues.

Now, Todd, before we get into the book, I always ask my guests about their own journey, the transitions they've made, the paths they've taken.

But your story is different.

You've been with Franklin Covey over 30 years.

You are truly a loyalist.

Tell us about your journey.

What led you to Franklin Covey?

What kept you there for three decades?

And how the role has evolved over the years.

Then we'll dive deeper into the book and its impact.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

So yes, I have been with Franklin Covey for almost three decades.

Prior to that, I worked in the medical industry for about 10 years and I was a recruiter.

I recruited physicians and other medical personnel to staff hospitals and to staff clinics for a couple of organizations here in the western United States where I live and did that for about 10 years.

And then some friends of mine, they decided to form their own outsourcing company for human resource functions, for people.

functions.

And so they had an attorney to handle employment law and they had a benefits person.

And they asked me, because I had been recruiting for so long, to join them and recruit for these various companies.

And so organizations would contract with our group, provide these human resource services instead of hiring those kind of people inside their firm.

So we would contract with companies to provide those services.

And what was then called the Covey Leadership Center, it was before Covey had merged with Franklin.

They were one of our clients.

And so they contracted with us and I was involved in finding their consultants to, ironically, to do what I do now, finding their salespeople and different things like that.

And I had read the seven habits of highly effective people

about a year before I started working, being a contractor for them.

And I was, I was blown away by the content and how it was helping me already change my life.

And this is 30 years ago.

And so I loved being a contractor for them.

And then they said

that they wanted to bring recruitment in-house.

They wanted to hire a recruiter so i threw my hat in the ring and and interviewed and was selected so i started my journey with franklin covey as their recruitment manager

and and then and if i'm going too long you tell me to speed it up but i worked with prove a manager and then i had in a previous life i had uh worked as a content developer putting together training programs So after I recruited for Covey for a while, we merged with Franklin Quest.

Franklin Quest in the U.S.

here was the time management company.

They had the Franklin Day Planner.

And everybody over here in the U.S.

had these day planners.

They were very famous for that.

And Covey Leadership Center, as you mentioned, was famous for the seven habits.

And so we merged those companies and I went to work for their innovations department where we developed our training, different training solutions.

And I did that for several years.

And then the CEO at that time came to me.

This would be about 20 years ago now, came to me and said, we would like you to apply for the chief people officer role and the person that was in that role had left and i said well that's great but i don't have any human resource experience i had recruited but i didn't know anything about labor laws or employee relations or any of that and and he said i know that but you're really good with people that's what he said you're really good with people so i applied for it and along with some other candidates and i was selected And so I immediately surrounded myself with really talented people

in the human resource area.

And so that was about 20 years ago.

And I did that.

I was the chief people officer for 18 years.

And then a couple of years ago, well, about three years ago, we started recruiting for my replacement because I wanted to move into the role that I'm in now.

And so for the last year and a half, almost two years, I've been a full-time consultant where I go out and do our deliver our training.

I do keynotes.

I do podcasts, things like we're doing today.

So that was probably a long-winded answer to your short question, but that's been my journey.

Unlike your job, unlike your current job, your current role, if you guys are hiring again, let me know.

I'll send you my resume.

It'd be amazing.

You and I have had a couple of calls now, and I find you so fascinating.

You understand human nature so well, and you'd be really great at this, Vince.

We have international partners.

We're a global company.

We've been in the leadership space for four decades, 40 years.

And so, as you said, here in the U.S., we say this with humility, but we're touted as the most trusted leadership organization because we've been in the space for so long.

But we have offices all around the world and we have licensee partners that also cover Hong Kong and China.

And so anyway, yeah, let's for sure talk about that after.

Thank you.

Now, you spent most of your career in the people function, serving as chief people officer for a long time, and even before and after that, staying deeply involved in people-focused roles.

So, while your title hasn't changed much, you've seen workplace challenges evolve over the years, both as the insider leading teams and as an outsider coaching and consulting with organizations.

That brings me to a natural question.

What have you observed?

We can go a day without hearing about workplace workplace issues such as downsizing, burnout, culture shifts.

Every headline has something about the future of work.

From your perspective, what's happening?

And why do you think the seven habits is not just still relevant,

but maybe even more critical today and in the years to come?

Thank you.

That's a great setup and such an important, so many important topics you capture in that.

So when Dr.

Stephen R.

Covey, who is the author of The Seven Habits, when he first wrote The Seven Habits 35 years ago, he would, what he did prior to that is all of his research was around effectiveness, like you said up front.

And we define effectiveness.

People think of effectiveness as getting a lot of things done or being successful or whatever.

We define effectiveness as getting things done, but not just anything, getting the right things done, the things that move you forward, the things that move your organization forward, your team forward.

And not just once, but how do we get results today in a way that allows us to get even better results over and over again in the future?

So that was the organizations of the people he studied, people that seemed to be able to do that.

And then he identified the principles.

that were at work with these people doing that.

And he put them into a format.

He he calls them the seven habits, put them into a format that we could talk about them, understand them, and most importantly, start to implement them into our lives.

And so the reason that I have found that these have been as relevant, more relevant today than they were when Dr.

Covey first wrote about them was because they're based on principles, principles of effectiveness.

And principles, as we know, were as true a million years ago as they will be a million years from now.

They don't change.

Now, the application changes, the way we put them to work changes in this ever-changing world, but the principles themselves don't ever change.

And so this book is timeless.

And I have found in my space, in the people space, if I remember these principles and I treat others in a principle-centered way, we can solve things.

We can move forward.

We can get past issues and help everyone move forward and progress.

That's been my experience.

The seven habits.

The latest version is a revised edition of the original.

What's new?

What's been updated?

And why was now the right time for a refresh?

Yeah, great question.

So it's been out 35 years.

The book has, the book.

is there might be a foreword that's updated there might be but the principles haven't changed the habits themselves haven't changed we don't really rewrite the book, but about every eight to 10 years, we have a work session that goes along with the book.

We have many work sessions.

We have 29, 30 different work sessions in different areas of business.

But the seven habits is our foundational piece.

And the work session that is about two full days worth of content, and that can be taught consecutively, that can be taught spread out.

There's an on-demand that you can self-pace.

That changes.

We update that about every eight to 10 years because the application and how we put these these practices or these principles to work change.

And so that's what we have just launched.

And what has changed in this most recent version, we just continually get, make them more practical, more applicable, more inclusive.

When I say simplify,

anyone who's read the seven habits, it is a fire hose of powerful information.

And sometimes people just don't know where to start.

They understand it all, but they don't know how to apply it.

And so this latest version, we've made it very, I don't want to say simplified, but very practical so that I can go through the course and I can start applying these principles tomorrow or tonight in my personal relationships and certainly in my professional relationships.

Could you give us one example?

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So how we can, I'm happy to walk through all the habits, but let me just tell you, Habit one.

is very foundational.

It's habit one for a reason.

It's called be proactive.

And it's based on the principle of choice.

The principle being that we, while there is so much you and I cannot influence or change, we can choose our response to any situation.

In fact, when I have looked at your LinkedIn profile, Vince, and your background in history, and you've had some amazing experiences and some very challenging experiences, and I've thought about the choices that you have made, the way you have chosen to respond to those situations.

You know, we can't always create or fix the situation, but we can choose our response.

So that's the principle in Habit One.

And with the mindset, we look at a paradigm for every habit.

And the paradigm in habit one is, I can't change how things are, so I just have to go as a flow.

That's a common mindset.

It's not very effective.

The effective mindset is, I make my own choices and I'm responsible for my own happiness that comes from those choices.

And that's what I mean you do in your, what I've heard about you.

So with that mindset, then I learn, okay, what are the behaviors I want to model?

There are three behaviors or practices that we teach in Habit One.

The first is to pause before we respond, to separate stimulus from response.

We have to think about that because reactive response just happens.

We don't have to think about it.

But a proactive response, we have to separate stimulus from response and decide how we want to respond.

What's the most effective way?

That's the first practice.

The second practice is to work within what we call our circle of influence versus our circle of concern.

We can be concerned with everything going on in the world and problems at work and policies and things like that, but staying in that circle of influence actually shrinks, excuse me, staying within that circle of concern actually shrinks our circle of influence.

Effective people, they recognize these things that we're concerned about, but then they go into the inner circle and say, what can I do about this?

Where can I start to make an impact or live differently?

And then the third thing we talk about, the third practice, just in habit one, is using proactive language.

And the science shows that it's not just talk positively and things will happen.

It actually programs our brain.

The positive

proactive language opens up the creative portions of our brain and the synapses in our brain to come up with more solutions versus reactive language shuts down that creativity.

There's an activity we do to get to your question.

There's an activity, one of the activities we do there is people write a sentence, I may not be able to, and then they fill in the blank, but I can, and then they fill in that blank.

So for example, I may have been in my role for a long time at my organization and I love the organization, but I'm tired of my role.

In that activity, they would put, I may not be able to change my role.

but I can look at other opportunities within the company to, you know, change up what I'm doing every day.

So it's training people how to actually use proactive language.

I don't know if that's responsive, but that's.

You've got seven habits.

And honestly, if we were going to do this properly, I would dedicate seven episodes, one for each habit.

Because it's not just about the principles.

It's about the practice.

And with all the clients you've coached over the years, I'm sure you've seen some incredible stories of transformation.

Is there one that stands out?

Maybe a client who really struggled with one of the habits.

Maybe they had their own reasons, their own roadblocks.

But with your guidance, they were able to untangle themselves from that situation and fully embrace and practice the habit.

Have you come across a case like that?

Absolutely.

And I could, yeah, and I know we only have an hour, but so I won't take all that time.

But two things came to mind just now when you asked that, Vince.

The first, this happened many years ago.

We got a letter at Franklin Covey from a man who was in prison.

He was incarcerated in prison.

I don't know what crime he'd committed,

but he had been in prison for about 20 years.

And he wrote our company a letter and he said, I want you to know the seven habits of highly affected people has changed my life.

He had, it was in their prison library and he picked it out, didn't know anything about it.

And he said, as I started reading this, I looked back over my life and I could see areas where I could have made a different choice.

And he said, even here in the prison, and I don't know whether he was, has the lifetime sentence or not, but he said, even here in the prison, I am learning how to be much more proactive.

Think when.

Habit four is to think think when, have an abundance mindset.

Habit five, seek first to understand, then to be understood.

And he talked about his communication with the warden and with other prisoners and how this book had changed his life, even in this very challenging and sad situation.

And again, he was there because of some choices he had made, but that was really powerful.

More specifically, so many of the

situations I found myself in, helping leaders work a problem out between the two of them or helping an employee work with a leader better.

I would, we would reflect on all of the habits, but what I want to call out specifically is habit five that I just mentioned.

First, to understand, then to be understood.

This habit is based on the principle of respect and empathy.

And so the point here is that as human beings, whether I live in the U.S., whether I live in Hong Kong, wherever, we have a tendency to listen to others with the intent to reply.

We're listening to someone and we may not be talking over them.

We may be eye contact and nodding, but in our minds, we're already formulating what we want to say next.

And it doesn't come from a bad place.

We're helpers, we're fixers, we want to solve the problem.

And so we hear just enough of what the other person is saying that we think, oh, I know how to solve this, or I know what I've dealt with this before.

I know what their problem is.

And instead of continuing to listen to them, our mind is already working on the solution.

And again, that's not, those aren't bad, but people who are truly effective, those leaders who are truly effective, they, I love the word suspend.

I'm assuming it translates the same, but suspend is to not give up on, but to put aside for a minute my thoughts, my feelings, my response, and truly hear the other person.

As much as I can, put myself in their place.

And I found a lot of people, they hesitate to do that because they think, gosh, if Vince is talking and I'm totally listening, they're going to think I'm agreeing with them.

And people don't.

If you just listen, you're not agreeing or disagreeing.

You're just listening with the intent to truly understand,

not to reply.

That is one of the most effective tools any human being, certainly leaders, but can do.

I'll bet you have people in your life, Vince, that are like that.

They don't judge.

They're not advising or probing.

They're just listening to understand.

And yes, they may say something like, So when you say that frustrates you, tell me a little bit more about that.

They're totally in your space.

It is one of the most effective habits we can develop.

I guess, in today's terms, they call this active listening or listening with curiosity, right?

The reality is, some people don't listen at all anymore,

thanks to social media.

Technology has trained people to communicate in a one-way street, just saying what they want to say, without any real interest in what others think.

If they get a comment they don't like, they just delete it.

Oh, this is hostile.

I don't like it.

But back to your point about real listening.

Listening without judgment, without forming a response in your head while the other person is speaking.

It's about being present,

really hearing what someone is saying, stepping into their shoe.

Maybe they're sharing a tough experience

instead of immediately thinking, oh, how would I handle this?

Or what advice should I give?

It's about sitting with that story, feeling what they are expressing.

And in a business setting, that's even harder.

We are trained to analyze, to problem solve someone speaks, and we instantly jump to, oh, here's what you should do.

But what you're saying is, we should hold back.

Instead of rushing to fix something,

we should focus entirely on the speaker, the situation, the thought, the emotions.

And only then,

if they ask for advice, do we step in with insights

after

fully understanding, not before.

Did I get that right?

You said it perfectly.

And I think you used a word a few minutes ago when you said, be curious, ask questions.

In the course, in the book, and in my coaching, we talk about moving from I bet

to I wonder.

I bet Joe comes comes in late to work every day because he's probably as unorganized at home as he is here in the office.

Two, I wonder why Joe seems so stressed out and hurried when he comes in.

I wonder what's going on.

I should maybe take some time and get to understand him better.

So it's what you said, Vince, it's this natural curiosity, or maybe it's not so natural, maybe it's this, but this mindful curiosity to have this active listening.

versus autobiographical listening, where we're listening through our own frame of reference, where we're filtering everything through my past experiences or the way that I see that.

And we think it's helpful and it is helpful at a certain time, but not when we need to understand each other.

Dr.

Covey said, the deepest need of the human heart is to feel understood.

And I have seen that prove itself out over and over again.

And you think about it, whether it's two friends or whether it's two colleagues or two leaders or a leader and employee, when they truly take the time to understand each other, not agree or disagree, but really understand each other, they can solve problems that much quicker.

You asked for a specific example that I'm remembering now, a Christian who came to me, they didn't feel like their boss recognized their talent.

And I said, tell me a little bit more about that.

Why is it that you don't think that your boss, it was a man?

And why do you not think that he recognizes your talent?

I just never hear anything.

I don't hear anything negative, but I never hear anything positive.

I never hear anything, you know, about that.

And And I said, have you talked to him about that?

And they said, no, I haven't talked to him.

I would think that they should realize that on their own.

And I said, I don't disagree with you.

Let's think about what do you think would be important to him?

And I did a little T-chart.

And I said, okay, so here's what's important to you from what I'm understanding.

You'd like to be recognized a little bit more.

You'd like to be given some more challenging work.

We went through the list of the things and they said, yeah, that's it.

What do you think would be important to him?

And this person said, I don't know.

I'm not him.

And I said, I understand that, but put yourself in his place.

What do you think would be important to him?

And this was a really seasoned, talented person, but they just, it didn't come natural to them like it might to you and me to think about empathy through the lens of the other person.

So they said, they probably want to make sure that they're recognized.

And I said, okay, let's put that down.

They probably want to make sure that the project we're working on is done on time.

Okay, let's put that down.

They probably care that they're seen as a good leader.

So we came up with this list and I coached this person and I said, what do you think about, what if you took this list to your manager, your leader, and you said, hey, and I'll call him Joe.

Hey, Joe, I had some things I want to talk to you about, but I also, in my thinking, I wanted to make sure I'm thinking about what's important to you.

And here's a list I've created.

Can you tell me, am I off?

Am I on?

Are there things I'm missing?

And that discussion opened up this wonderful relationship between this leader and this employee.

And in that discussion, the employee then said, I work really hard.

And the leader said, oh, I know you do a great job.

And they said, I never know that.

You've never told me that.

And so this person helped the leader develop.

Anyway, long story short, this all stems from habit five and really taking time to understand each other.

A lot of what you talk about in your book,

you call them skills, human skills.

I like to call them human intelligence.

We live in a world where AI

drives the conversation every day.

It's about artificial intelligence.

But what I've noticed over the past 10 to 15 years is a huge decline in human intelligence.

I don't just mean things like empathy or resilience.

I'm talking about basic skills such as speaking, writing, listening.

We have ears, we have eyes, we have a mouth.

Yet, so many people don't even know how to communicate like real human beings.

Some don't even know when to say thank you or sorry.

And now people are outsourcing their thinking to AI.

Writing, which is so deeply connected to thought,

analysis, and expression.

is being handed over to tools like ChatGPT.

I worry that if we continue down this path, we'll start losing the art of being human.

What do you think?

Is this a real risk?

And if so, how do we stop it?

I couldn't agree with you more.

In fact, we just, I was just trying to find it here.

We just used, read and used a study.

It was done here in the U.S.

of 290 organizations that use AI at least once a week.

So they're high users of AI.

And their leaders were given a survey of what skills are most important for their success of the organization.

And there were, they have 25, I wish I could find, they have 25 skills laid out there, but the top three skills were creativity, interpersonal skills that you're just talking about.

and creativity, interpersonal skills.

And I think it had empathy, which is one of the interpersonal skills.

But their point was these leaders were saying, AI is wonderful.

It's doing a lot of things for us, but it cannot replace these interpersonal skills.

This very basic, like you said, this very basic thing that I learned growing up from my parents as far as just respect and thank you and would you have a few minutes and the way that we not just nice things, but things to really connect with other human beings.

And maybe I'll be wrong, but I don't see AI ever replacing that.

Even now, I've used AI to put together, I had to do a keynote for a couple of hours with an organization on generational leadership.

And I worked in that field and I've done that, but I still I use ChatGPT and I said, hey, here's the elements I'd like to include.

And it put a straw model together for me.

I had to apply my piece to that.

But I think AI can be a very useful tool, but I think that human connection.

It's a principle.

It's always going to be, always going to be needed.

Even if I ask ChatGPT to write me a letter or something, I'm going to want to go over it and make sure it has my tone and my and saying the things are the way that I want it to come across to the other person.

That's it for today.

We've talked about what makes leaders actually effective.

But next, we are diving into the real human side.

Why trust works like a bank account?

The biggest leadership blind spots.

And why most people don't really listen.

Oh, and wait till you hear Tolk's prison story.

See you in part two.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

If you like what you heard, Don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media.

I'm Vin Shen, your ambitious human host.

Until next time, take care.