#264 Colin Savage: The Frequent Flyer of Change Has Thoughts on AI—and Lifelong Learning — Part Two

You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy.
Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites.
With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates, so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non-sponsored jobs.
Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.
And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash P-O-D-K-A-T-Z 12. Just go to Indeed.com slash P-O-D-K-A-T-Z 12 right now

and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

Terms and conditions apply. Hiring our show, Chief Change Officer.
I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world.
This is a three-part series with Colin Selvich. In part one, the first episode, we'll dive into Colin's fascinating journey as a self-proclaimed change addict turned change guru.
Colin's career spans continents, cultures, and industries. Seven countries lived in, seven more seek contact to, and projects in over 70 nations.
From organizational transformation to personal reinvention, he has mastered the art of embracing change and applying those lessons to life.

In this conversation, Colin unpacks his unique perspective on change.

How throwing himself into the unknown led to unparalleled growth and insight.

From leaving Canada with nothing but a suitcase and ambition, to navigating industries from telecommunications to financial services, Colin shares how the constant evolution around him became his greatest teacher. In the next episodes, we'll explore the learning required for transformation, why Colin believes lifelong learning is outdated and skills decking is the future.
And finally, in part three, we'll tackle AI, human intelligence, and why every one of us needs a personal AI strategy.

Buckle up, this one is a ride. Like you said, one of the threats running through your experience is change and strategy.
You've worked with so many firms and organizations, guiding them through their transformations. So you must have seen Cognos business cases unfold.
What have you learned from these consulting projects and organizational change initiatives that could apply to individual situations? Are there lessons from these business cases that also resonate on a personal level, especially when we face dilemmas or crossroads

in our own lives? One example is going to be a bit of a surprise to people because they will have read, potentially, how traditional this country is. And this is Japan.
So I lived in Japan, as I mentioned, for quite a long time. And with the Japanese life insurance company, we're in Brazil.
We're seeing something that's a bit unique. In Japan, one of the largest minorities are really.
And they are people who travel to Japan as youth. They have access to visas and other things, and they start their working life in

Japan. So they're actually indoctrinated.
They learn working culture from being in Japanese companies while other than otherwise. They learn things like, hey, life insurance is important.
You need to have it. The discussion went, how are we going to go build this different idea? And what came about was I learned that change, individual, team, and otherwise, comes from doing a lot of promotion.
So Japan is a lot about individual conversation to get support or get direction. Big organizations are great at providing that direction, but often indirect.
You have to be a cute direction. So, hey, why don't we consider this? Why don't we do that? But also, it's measured and it's planned to change.
You can't just come up with an idea and throw it at people and get them to say yes or no. You've got to research your idea.
This is the market side. These are the people.
This is what they would buy. This is how it would benefit them if they stayed where they are or then when they moved back this is how we could link a dovetail or a pipeline into getting new people in a new market we might make so it took a lot of time but i was very surprised and very proud that we actually managed to get this kind of relief.

I got support from lovely people within the organization.

They provided their time to me.

We moved ahead.

It took two years, but the change did happen.

And it was actually a real shining example of just because you think a culture and a group of people are traditional in their practices, doesn't mean they're averse to change. You just need to be, from that change addict thing we were talking about, not willy-nilly, not, hey, let's just do it for the sake of doing it.
Be measured, be strategic, be researched in what you want to change, and then find the kind and supportive voices.

And if you find enough of them, you'll get groundswell and you'll be able to do it.

If you don't, maybe your idea really isn't that great.

Maybe you need to go back to the drawing.

So learn to take the interest and the novelty and the energy that comes from potential change and have it fuel you to do the really important steps, the fundamental steps to maybe make that change happen. And the flip side would be actually back here in Canada.
I worked for a quite traditional marketing company. Probably if I tell you who it is, people will know right away.
They brought me in as a changed person. That's how I was recruited.
Please come here. We know our industry is on the decline.
We're not really entirely sure where to go with it. We've seen what you did in other places.
We're eager to change. We want a chance.
They used all the right word.

They were very receptive to the idea before I moved in-house.

I got in there and I asked, do you want me to be disruptive?

Would you like me to push new initiatives?

Absolutely, this is what we want.

And within a month of me doing that, we don't really like this. Or that was a little too much.
The reality is they were a different kind of ad. They were hooked on a legacy of very high revenue and high profit margin.
And they weren't willing. They really weren't willing.
And they hadn't done the time to figure out, do we want to change? Are we willing to forego some of that to potentially make it somewhere else? Or maybe not. And even though they had all of the support, allegedly support from people above and their ownership and others, they were incredibly reluctant to do it.
So I was sitting in a role where change was in my title, but I couldn't do anything. And I had built up Goodwill.
I'd got some champions. I was doing everything that change management tells you to do, pushing the needle here, scaling your time here.
And for the time period that I was there, they were wholly unwilling to stay strong. And at a certain point, I had to, you know what, it isn't going to work for me.
I'm pushing the rock up hill, as whatever the Greek myth is. And I'm not getting anywhere.
And I'm being told two different stories. So we dig into it, which might have really like an external push from other people.
So we don't want to do it. And it ended up being a failure for myself.
And it's something that I've taken on and I accept. And I learned a lot of really good lessons from it.
And frankly, I had some work with some wonderful people that were driven to it.

But when the entire organization has been dictated change and not really trusting of the person who's supposed to pilot it, then it's not going to happen. But in this instance, it's a little bit about, it's maybe less about the change addict thing,

but learning about that change guru, if that's a good word, or change guide, which is, all right, maybe we need to take a step back and figure out what is your definition of change? Is it collectively the same? Do we all think it's a good idea? Okay, maybe we need to tailor it a little more specifically and then move on from there. And that's hopefully where I am now and how I actually go about it a little bit more.
There's a little bit less put on the gas, more let's put the car in park for a second and let's have a talk. We'll drive a block down the road and then we're going to have another talk.
And that way we can get to the kind of, again, change that we're all trying to achieve. And back to that definition of six steps.
It's not just keep that directed by the outside or financial reasons, only the whole way that we're going to evolve in and change for the day. I can totally relate to your Canadian example.
I've had a similar experience myself.

We can chat more about it offline, but eventually it led to me leaving that company. If I think about it in a more personal context, like within a family, change isn't just about one person.

It's a group decision that can lead to challenges too. For example, when I used to help younger professionals plan their MBA career paths, many of them would ask me, Vince, should I apply to this school or that school? Should I study in this city or another city? Often, these decisions weren't just about them.
They were married, so the decision had to include the spouse. My answer to them was, this isn't just about you.
What does your husband or wife say? Have you discussed whether it will mean long distance for two years? Will they move with you? If they do, will they be able to work? If not, what happens then? That's where the tension often starts. One partner wants to change, but the other doesn't.
Or they see the change differently. It creates conflict.
And that's not unlike what happens in a business setting. One stakeholder might push for a big transformation, while others hesitate or resist because the interpretation of change is different.
So yes, I think that dynamic applies across contexts, personal or professional. My neck is hurting from how much I'm nodding for your example.
Because one of the reasons and one of the benefits that I've had is the partner that I'm with. And she's actually been my sage.
She's been my guide. The example that you, with somebody from China, one of you, you're an MBA, they're married, I have basically dragged my partner and then our kid around the world.
It was only until the sort of the last one or two time that I realized I need to sit down and I need to talk to her. I need to ask her, what are you, what do you think about it? It's not just me moving for a job and to be the traditional one at the time, but not anymore, but the breadwinner for Emily, she has been the one that said, okay, so we're moving.
All right, where are we moving? And then hit the ground running. And it was only later on the last couple of times that I've asked them, I'm concerned about this, or I'm not sure how that's going to work, or what are we going to do in this thing? And a lot of the things she's done is really ground or why we were going to go and move somewhere else however we're going to make significant change in our lives to your example i'm going to take it on and then everything's going to be hunky-dory and we're all going to be happy and but they weren't they didn't know that they could voice it and so now it's more like a collective so So now we're sitting around in Canada and we're thinking, so what's the next step? And my first step now is to go and talk to my two teenage sons and my wife and say, hey, guys, what do you think about this? And the reality is, whatever our age is and wherever our life is taken up, they'll come up with questions and problems and scenarios or that's a chance that's difficult.
And you've got to be a little bit more soul-searching to figure out, is this really right for me? Is this really what should happen? And if it's done, how is it going to go? And how can I deal with it as and where it goes? Actually, you have so many degrees that people often ask me, Vince, are you collecting degrees? I usually laugh it off and say, no, I have three, and I talk each one very seriously. I don't even bother explaining why I pursued two MBAs anymore.
But looking at you, Colin, you have even more. Would you consider yourself a lifelong learner? I imagine you have some strong opinions on that term.
A lot of people lean on lifelong learning when they are at the crossroads or want to make a change in their lives. They fall back on education, upskilling, retooling, whatever the best word of the day might be.
But you've shared some interesting ideas with me about skill stacking and how that might offer a more impactful approach. So what do you think of lifelong learning as a concept? How do you see it evolving and where does skills decking fit into the equation? Very recently, I found myself,

and I think this also leads a little bit

to my love for novelty.

I don't think a day goes by

where I don't find the topic that I go,

hey, you know what?

I should have studied it.

And then I go and I start,

I spend 10 minutes looking for universities

where I could go and I can study.

And I don't know

if I'm ever actually going to get over that practice but to to talk to your specific comment about light law and learning to skill stacker so I am the the product uh, two academic people.

And so both of my parents were educators. They both were educators at all different levels.
They were both academically inclined. And so was our family.
And it was ingrained in us very young in two ways. And the first one was, we always had a room in our house that was more of a study than a den.
It was a room where there was a lot of books, a lot of things on the wall, inspirational quotes, all that kind. And my parents often argued about who got to use the big desk and do their writing and do their research and whatever else.
And on one of the walls were all of their degrees. So that's it.
From a very early age, I'd look up at a wall and I'd see lots of people with paper and very nice writing. Oh, what are those? Well, that's my degree in education.
So that was the first. And then the second one was, and this came more from, from a grandparent who actually didn't have a lot of education.
He would relay to us as a little kid all the time, you know what? Like somebody can, they can take away your house. They can take away your possessions.
They can take away your money. They can take your family.
They can take your health. They can do all that kind of stuff.
The only thing that they cannot take away from you is your education. And so I still believe that.
I still believe that's very true. And so anyway, from a long, from my early age, with those kind of two things, it was education is important, right? And you should constantly be learning, right? And I don't, I didn't know at the time that you had to constantly be learning.
Now it's related to keeping technology and technological advances and things like generative AI that I'm not studying. It was more like you just should keep learning all the time.
My parents were very flexible and it didn't really matter what. But it was important that it was with somebody who knows it.
So there was an expert. And at the end, there was going to be some kind of a written comment.
There was going to be a degree, a diploma, letters behind your name, whatever it is. So that's lifelong learning.
For me, there's continually learning from established institutions, program, gathering up the diploma and other things.

And really, the area doesn't matter.

Lifelong learning, learn whatever.

But lifelong learning is, I think it's an outdated concept,

and particularly because it just lacks focus.

I may be an example of that.

And that's where I studied English literature, I studied philosophy, I studied liberal art. Then I went to Japan and then I did a master's degree in modern Japanese literature.
Okay, there's a little bit of a connection there with literature, but different cultures, different languages. Then I go to the UK and I do a master's degree in social anthropology in Southeast Asia, learning for me.
I lived in lots of countries, but that's where the interesting cultures, the people come from. I can back up again and find that I can connect them, but they didn't really have a focus on building expertise.
They were disjointed variety of individual level or understanding and mastery of skills and discipline. And then I had to actually build pathways.
And one of the pathways that helped me do that was doing an MBA at Durham in the UK. And so I connected social anthropology, I connected multi-generational stuff, and I connected performance management for business to figure out a metric to understand how to support multi-generational organizations with different levels of performance management and guidance.
But it wasn't purposeful. Fast forward a few years, now we're into the pandemic.
I'm living here in Canada. I'm sitting like most of us were in our own little home offices.
I'm going through things like LinkedIn learning in other places. And I'm noticing connectivity between, hey, what if I learn how to be better at doing online presentation and whatnot from the short course?

Then I can use the skills that I want to go to the lecturer to maybe coach it in-house in my company. So everybody will be better at sitting in virtual meetings.
Hey, there's this new performance management tool online because we're all living remotely so we're worried about efficiency and all of those kind of things. How could I learn the technology behind it to maybe adapt it so we can add it to the practice we have in town? But there's still a little bit traditional.
Paper big. Building, building, building.
So what happened was, I'm not entirely sure that stacking is the right word. I think it's more like staircase.
And you've got overlaps half or a little bit more, but then you branch off into new areas. But you're constantly building your thought.
And now to round off my comment, now I'm learning for the last two years generative AI and I've learned large language model development. I've learned prompt engineering, all those kinds of things.
But now that's actually connecting back in like almost reverse skill tracking with clear thought and clear writing. If you're not a good writer and you're not good at generating good writing, good step-by-step way to do something to build the proper prong, it can't do what you want.
It doesn't deliver what you would like. And so you'll spend extra time tweaking it and tailoring yourself.
I finally get to what you would like. But if you were good at writing, which comes from spending a lot of time in literature, and you're good at research, which helps you figure out the steps to be able to get the result you'd like, combining those and learning how and understanding how in a generative, a

particular prompting, the skill that you need to do it, you're stacking those or you're staircasing all of those and you're going to be able to generate way better results in generative AI. And more importantly, even with people being able to guide them through a process, you're going get the result master which is better for everyone hopefully that's not a two round about what we need to get there but i think yeah now lifelong learning is an outdated concept and then it lacks focus for some people where the skill stacking is a little more concentrated and it will help you really build a cheese but But again, it's not going to be specific in an area, but you can fly it across a swath of area.
And it'll really help you advance your career and advance whatever you want to do to be a standout kind of person. I kind of agree or disagree with what you just said.
Lifelong learning is about the attitude, in my opinion. Lifelong learning isn't just about acquiring new knowledge.
It's about figuring out how you learn best. Some people thrive in classroom settings or in-person workshops, while others prefer self-paced digital formats.
The methods vary, but the goal is the same, which is to keep growing, to keep learning. When it comes to skill stacking, I see it as something deeper.
You mentioned it's about purposefully merging diverse skills to solve complex challenges, and I think you're right. What's often missing isn't the means to learn.
We have more access than ever to tools, training, and knowledge. The gap lies in connecting the dots between those skills and leveraging them in meaningful ways to multiply the impact.
In my view, we are living in a tool economy.

Tool, T-O-O-L.

Everything is about the tool.

Whether it's ChetGPT today, Google yesterday, or whatever the next hot thing will be.

The mindset is, if you have a problem, there's a tool for that.

Need a solution?

Just grab a hammer, a screwdriver. What is the problem? Most of the time, those tools are just solving service-level symptoms, not addressing the deeper underlying issues.
It's like putting a Band-Aid on the cut without treating the infection. Sure, the immediate problem looks solved, but the root cause persists, and people end up repeating the same mistakes.
I see this pattern a lot, especially among knowledge workers.

They buy into the idea of lifelong learning, sign up for courses, pay for certifications, and stack up all these skills. But they don't actually go anywhere with them.
Why? Because the key isn't just acquiring skills, it's in connecting them, applying them to real-life scenarios, case-by-case, and solving problems with them in an integrated manner. So the missing piece is less about technical skills and more about human skills, what most people call soft skills.
Problem solving, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, communication, these are the connective tissue that make skill stacking impactful. Without them, you're just collecting tools in a toolbox you don't know how to use effectively.
That's where I think the future of lifelong learning needs to focus. Not just teaching new skills, but on helping people build the connections between them and apply them in meaningful, impactful ways.
It's not about the tools themselves. It's about what you build with them.
I agree. Yeah, you have brought the other hand that I'm not going to say that I forgot.
But what I would add to what you're saying, and you tweet the court in the skill stacking.

I differentiate between calling the person and calling the professional all the time.

So skill stacking, those are skills back for my calling the person.

That's where lifelong learning for me and always grow.

And so I'm very clear on what's the differentiator. Because what you can do is if you're people like us or those listening that are like us, if you've got a whole crazy horizon of areas that you're interested in and you've read about, studied, done whatever to build up knowledge, it can be impossible to connect all the dots and make them all skip.
I love reading modern African history. I have three shelves of books in my house that are all about the Democratic Republic of the Congress.
I am never going to use that, at least not now. Oh, I gotta go get that PhD in rent.
Or I need to go in this thing that I've been invested in for a long time and I enjoy reading about and it is a form of learning doesn't need to be something that I'm going to incorporate into my work life. And I purposely keep it separate.
And that's the same thing of the musical instruments that happen to be gathered in bust, unfortunately, in the back of my room. Those are also skills that I'm learning throughout my life just for my own enjoyment.
And I'm totally with you on the law of the instrument, right? If everything, if you've got a hammer and you're good at it, then it'll look like a nail. I sit on a number of groups where we support startups and tech founders and entrepreneurs.
And the drive to just leap to the solution, because I think I can sell a widget to somebody, rather than understanding to your point, like, is this actually a problem or is this a set of or something else?

It just drives me nuts. And so we're just going to end up with now the toolkit is going to have 7,000 tools, 6,800 of which I don't know how to use.
And 50 that are actually useful for me to figure out any kind of a dilemma that I'm approaching. I think you've done a good job

Of reminding me that

Maybe the light to figure out any kind of a dilemma that I'm approaching. I think, yeah, I think you've done a good job of reminding me that maybe the lifelong learning thing should be just for life and the skill stacking should be where we focus on potentially getting the right kind of multi-skilled person who, to your point, doesn't just look down and build a tool, but is able to interact

with others, is able to be empathetic, show emotional intelligence, all those kind of

things that I think maybe sometimes get sharp to the side over the, let's build the technical

experience and skill ourselves up with, now I know not just C++, but I also know all of

these other JavaScript and other kind of software so I can build my own AI market. Let's go.
Right? Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews,

check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host.

Until next time, take care.