#264 Colin Savage: The Frequent Flyer of Change Has Thoughts on AI—and Lifelong Learning — Part Two

Speaker 1 Hi everyone, welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer.

Speaker 1 I'm Vince Chen,

Speaker 1 your ambitious human host.

Speaker 1 Our show

Speaker 1 is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world.

Speaker 1 This is a three-part series with Colin Selvich.

Speaker 1 In part one,

Speaker 1 the first episode, we'll dive into Colin's fascinating journey as a self-proclaimed change addict, turned change guru.

Speaker 1 Colin's career spans continents, cultures, and industries, seven countries lived in, seven more seconded to, and projects in over 70 nations.

Speaker 1 From organizational transformation to personal reinvention,

Speaker 1 he has mastered the art of embracing change and applying those lessons to life.

Speaker 1 In this conversation, Colin unpacks his unique perspective on change.

Speaker 1 How throwing himself into the unknown led to unparalleled growth and insight.

Speaker 1 From leaving Canada with nothing but a suitcase and ambition to navigating industries from telecommunications to financial services.

Speaker 1 Colin shares how the constant evolution around him became his greatest teacher.

Speaker 1 In the next episodes, we'll explore the learning required for transformation,

Speaker 1 why Colin believes lifelong learning is outdated and skills decking is the future.

Speaker 1 And finally, in part three, We'll tackle AI, human intelligence, and why every one of us needs a personal AI strategy.

Speaker 1 Buckle up, this one is a ride.

Speaker 1 Like you said, one of the threats running through your experience is change. And strategy.

Speaker 1 You've worked with so many firms and organizations, guiding them through their transformations.

Speaker 1 So you must have seen countless business cases unfold.

Speaker 1 What have you learned from these consulting projects and organizational change initiatives that could apply to individual situations?

Speaker 1 Are there lessons from these business cases that also resonate? on a personal level, especially when we face dilemmas or crossroads in our own lives.

Speaker 1 One example is going to be a bit of a surprise to people because they will have read potentially how traditional this country is. And this is Japan.

Speaker 1 So I lived in Japan, as I mentioned, for quite a long time. I'm with the Japanese life insurance company.
We're in Brazil. We're seeing something that's a bit unique.

Speaker 1 In Japan, one of the largest minorities are youth people.

Speaker 1 And they are people who

Speaker 1 travel to Japan as youth. They have access to visas and other things, and they start their working life in Japan.
So they're actually indoctrinated.

Speaker 1 They learn working culture from being in Japanese companies, a lot of them and otherwise.

Speaker 1 They learn things like, hey, life insurance is important. You need to have it.
The discussion went, how are we going to go build this business by here?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 what came about was I learned that change, individual, team, and otherwise, comes from

Speaker 1 doing a lot of promotion. So Japan is a lot about individual conversation to get support or get direction.
Big organizations are great at providing that direction, but often indirect.

Speaker 1 You have to be acute to the team.

Speaker 1 So, hey, why don't we consider this? Why don't we do that? But also, it's measured and it's planned change. You can't just come up with an idea and throw it at people and get them to say yes or no.

Speaker 1 You've got to research your idea. This is the market size.
These are the people. This is what they would buy.

Speaker 1 This is how it would benefit them if they stayed where they are or then when they moved back. This is how we could

Speaker 1 dovetail or a pipeline into getting new people in a new market we might.

Speaker 1 So it took a lot of time, but I was very surprised then and very proud that we actually managed to get this kind of religion.

Speaker 1 I got support from lovely people within the organization. They provided their time to me.
We moved ahead. It took two years, but the change did happen.

Speaker 1 And it was actually a real shining example of just because you think a culture and a group of people are traditional in their practices doesn't mean they're averse to change.

Speaker 1 You just need to be, you know, from that change addict thing we were talking about,

Speaker 1 not willy-nilly, not, hey, let's just do it for the sake of doing it.

Speaker 1 Be measured, be strategic, be researched in what you want to change, and then find the kind and supportive voices. And if you find enough of them, you'll get groundswell and you'll be able to do it.

Speaker 1 If you don't, maybe your idea really isn't that great. Maybe you need to go back to the drawing.

Speaker 1 So learn to take the the interest and the novelty and the energy that comes from a potential change and have it fuel you to do the really important

Speaker 1 steps, the fundamental steps to maybe make that change happen. And the flip side would be actually back here in Canada.
I work for a quite traditional marketing company.

Speaker 1 Probably, if I tell you who it is, people will know right away. They brought me in as a changed person.
That's how I was recruited. Please come here.
We know our industry is on the decline.

Speaker 1 We're not really entirely sure where to go with it. We've seen what you did in other places.
We're eager to change. We watch

Speaker 1 they used all the right words.

Speaker 1 They were very receptive to the ideas before I moved in-house. I got in there and I asked, do you want me to be disruptive? Would you like me to push new initiatives?

Speaker 1 Absolutely, this is what we want. And within a month of me doing that, we don't really like that.

Speaker 1 Or that was a little too much. The reality is they were a different kind of ad.

Speaker 1 They were hooked on a legacy of very high revenue and high profit margin.

Speaker 1 And they weren't willing, they really weren't willing, and they hadn't done the time to figure out, do we want to change? Are we willing to forego some of that?

Speaker 1 to potentially make it somewhere else or maybe not.

Speaker 1 And even though they had all of the support, allegedly support from people above and their ownership and others, they were incredibly reluctant to do it.

Speaker 1 So I was sitting in a role where change was in my title, but I couldn't do anything.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I had built up Goodwill. I'd got some champions.
I was doing everything that change management tells you to do. pushing the needle here,

Speaker 1 scaling you here.

Speaker 1 And for the time period that I was there, they were wholly unwilling to take strong. And at a certain point, I had to, you know what? This isn't going to work for me.

Speaker 1 I'm pushing the rock up Elu,

Speaker 1 whatever the Greek mut do.

Speaker 1 And I'm not getting anywhere. And

Speaker 1 I'm being told two different stories. So we dig into it.
We find it really that like an external push from other people.

Speaker 1 So we don't want to do it. And it ended up being a failure for myself.
And it's something that I've taken on and I accept. And I learned a lot of really good lessons from it.

Speaker 1 And frankly, had some worklists of wonderful people that were driven to it. But when the entire organization has been dictated change

Speaker 1 and not really

Speaker 1 trusting of the person who's supposed to pilot it, then it's not going to happen. But in this instance, it's a little bit about.

Speaker 1 It's maybe less about the change addict thing, but learning about

Speaker 1 change guru, if that's a a good word or change guide which is all right maybe we need to take a step back figure out what is your definition of change is it collectively the same do we all think this is a good idea okay maybe we need the tailoring a little more specific

Speaker 1 and then move on from there and that's hopefully where i am now and how i actually go about it a little bit more it there's a little bit less less foot on the gas, more, let's put the car in park for a second and let's have a talk

Speaker 1 we'll drive a block down the road and then we're going to have another talk and that way we can get to the kind of again change that we're all trying to achieve and back to that definition of success it's not just keep steps directed by the outside or financial reasons only the wholesome uh way that we're going to evolve and change for the better i can totally relate to your canadian example i've had a similar experience myself

Speaker 1 We can chat more about it offline, but eventually it led to me leaving that company.

Speaker 1 If I think about it in a more personal context, like within a family, change isn't just about one person, it's a group decision that can lead to challenges too.

Speaker 1 For example,

Speaker 1 when I used to help younger professionals plan their MBA career paths, many of them would ask me, Vince, should I apply to this school or that school? Should I study in this city or another city?

Speaker 1 Often, these decisions weren't just about them.

Speaker 1 They were married, so the decision had to include their spouse. My answer to them was,

Speaker 1 This isn't just about you. What does your husband or wife think? think? Have you discussed whether it will mean long distance for two years?

Speaker 1 Will they move with you?

Speaker 1 If they do, will they be able to work? If not, what happens then?

Speaker 1 That's where the tension often starts. One partner wants to change, but the other doesn't.
Or they see the change differently.

Speaker 1 It creates conflict, and that's not unlike what happens in a business setting.

Speaker 1 One stakeholder might push for a big transformation, while others hesitate or resist because the interpretation of change is different.

Speaker 1 So yes, I think that dynamic applies across contexts, personal or professional.

Speaker 1 My neck is hurting from how much I'm nodding figuring that

Speaker 1 because one of the reasons and one of the benefits that I've had is partner that I'm with and she's actually been my sage. She's been my guide.

Speaker 1 The example that you with somebody from China wanting to give an MBA, they're married, what are they going to do?

Speaker 1 I have basically dragged my partner and then our kids around the world. It was only until the sort of the last one or two times.
that I realized I need to sit down and I need to talk to her.

Speaker 1 I need to ask her, what are you, what do you think about it? Not just me moving for a job and to be the traditional one at the time, but not anymore, but the breadwinner for a humble league.

Speaker 1 She has been the one that said, okay, so we're moving. All right, where are we moving? And then hit the ground running.

Speaker 1 And it was only later on, the last couple of times that I've asked and I'm concerned about this or I'm not sure how that's going to work or what are we going to do in this instance.

Speaker 1 And a lot of the things she's done is really ground

Speaker 1 why we were going to go and move somewhere else, why we were going to make significant change in our lives.

Speaker 1 To your example, I'm going to take it on and then everything's going to be hunky-dory and we're all going to be happy. And, but they weren't, they didn't know that they could voice it.

Speaker 1 And so now it's more like a collective. So now we're sitting around in Canada and we're thinking, so what's the next step? And my first step now is to go and talk to my...

Speaker 1 two teenage sons and my wife and say, hey, guys, what do you think about this?

Speaker 1 And the reality is, whatever our age is, and wherever our life is taken up,

Speaker 1 they'll come up with questions and problems and scenarios for that. That's a chance that's difficult.
And you've got to be a little bit more soul-searching to figure out: is this really right for me?

Speaker 1 Is this really what should happen? And if it does, how is it going to go? And how can I deal with it as in where it goes?

Speaker 1 Actually, you have so many degrees that

Speaker 1 people often ask me, Vince, are you collecting degrees? I usually laugh and off and say, no, I have three, and I took each one very seriously.

Speaker 1 I don't even bother explaining why I pursued two MBAs anymore. But looking at you, Colin, you have even more.

Speaker 1 Would you consider yourself a lifelong learner?

Speaker 1 I imagine you have some strong opinions on that term.

Speaker 1 A lot of people lean on lifelong learning when they are at the crossroads or want to make a change in their lives.

Speaker 1 They fall back on education, upskilling, retooling, whatever the buzzword of the day might be.

Speaker 1 But you've shared some interesting ideas with me about skill stacking.

Speaker 1 and how that might offer a more impactful approach.

Speaker 1 So what do you think of lifelong learning as a concept?

Speaker 1 How do you see it evolving and where does skills decking fit into the equation?

Speaker 1 Very recently, I found myself, and I think

Speaker 1 this also leads a little bit to my love for novelty. I don't think a day goes by where I don't find the topic that I go, hey, you know what? I should really study this.

Speaker 1 And then I go and I start to spend 10 minutes looking for universities where I could go and I can study. And I don't know if I'm ever actually going to

Speaker 1 get over that

Speaker 1 practice.

Speaker 1 But to talk to your specific comment about light blonde learning, the skills that I've so I am the product

Speaker 1 to

Speaker 1 academic people.

Speaker 1 So both of my parents were educators.

Speaker 1 They both were educators at all different levels. They were both academically inclined, and so was our family.
And

Speaker 1 it was ingrained in us

Speaker 1 very young in two ways. And the first one was we always had a room in our house that was more of a study than a den.
It was a room where there was a lot of books.

Speaker 1 a lot of things on the wall, inspirational quotes, all that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 And my parents often argued about who got teaches the big desk and do their writing and do their research and whatever else. And on one of the walls were all of their degrees.
So that's it.

Speaker 1 From a very early age, I'd look up at a wall and I'd see lots of pieces of paper and very nice frame.

Speaker 1 Oh, what are those? Well, that's my degree in education.

Speaker 1 So that was the first.

Speaker 1 And then the second one was, and this came more from a grandparent who actually didn't have a lot of education.

Speaker 1 He would relay to us as a little kid all the time, you know what?

Speaker 1 Like somebody can, they can take away your house, they can take away your possessions, they can take away your money, they can take your family, they can take your health, they can do all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 The only thing that they cannot take away from you is your education. And so I still believe that.
I still believe that's very true.

Speaker 1 And so anyway, from a long, from an early age with those kind of two things,

Speaker 1 it was education is important. Right.
And you should constantly be learning. Right.
And I don't, I didn't know at the time that you have to constantly be learning.

Speaker 1 Now it's related to keeping technology and technological advances and things like generative today. No, I didn't know how to study all that.

Speaker 1 It was more like you just should keep learning all the time. My parents were very flexible and it didn't really matter what,

Speaker 1 but it was important that it was with somebody who knows it. So there was an expert.
And at the end, there was going to be some kind of

Speaker 1 renkam. There was going to be a degree, a diploma,

Speaker 1 letters behind your name, whatever it is. So that's lifelong learning.
For me, there is continually learning from established institutions, programs, gathering up the diplomas and other things.

Speaker 1 And really, the area doesn't matter. Lifelong learning, learn whatever.

Speaker 1 But lifelong learning is, I think it's an outdated concept, and particularly because it just lacks spoken. I may be an example of that.

Speaker 1 And that's where I studied English literature, I studied philosophy, I studied liberal art. Then I went to Japan and then I did a master's degree in modern Japanese literature.

Speaker 1 Okay, there's a little bit of a connection there with literature, but different cultures, different languages.

Speaker 1 Then I go to the UK and I do a master's degree in social anthropology in Southeast Asia, learning Burmese. I lived in lots of countries, so that's where the interesting cultures, the people come from.

Speaker 1 I can back up again and find that I can connect them, but they didn't really have a focus on building expertise. They were

Speaker 1 disjointed variety of individual levels or understandings and mastery of skills and discipline. And then I had to actually build a pathway to connect.

Speaker 1 And one of the pathways that helped me do that was doing an MBA at Durham in the UK.

Speaker 1 And so I connected section anthropology, I connected multi-generational stuff, and I connected performance management from business to figure out a metric to understand how to support multi-generational organizations with different levels of performance management and guidance.

Speaker 1 But it wasn't purposeful. Fast forward a few years.
Now we're into the pandemic. I'm living here in Tatado.
I'm sitting like most of us were in our own little home offices.

Speaker 1 I'm going through things quickly.

Speaker 1 Then learning in other places, and I'm noticing connectivity between, hey, what if I learn how to be better at doing online presentation and whatnot from this short course, then I can use the skills, but I want the lecturer to maybe coach it in-house in my company.

Speaker 1 So everybody will be better at sitting in virtual meetings.

Speaker 1 Hey, there's this new performance management tool online because we're all living remotely.

Speaker 1 So worried about efficiency and all of those kind of thing how could i learn the technology behind it to maybe adapt it so we can add it to their practices we have in hell but it's still a little bit traditional paper bait building and building and building so what happened was i'm not entirely sure that stacking is the right word i think it's more like staircase

Speaker 1 and you've got overlaps half or a little bit more, but then you branch off into new areas. But you're constantly building this up.

Speaker 1 And now to round off my comment, now I'm learning for the last two years generative AI and I've learned large language model development. I've learned proper engineering, all those kind of things.

Speaker 1 But now that's actually connecting back in like almost reverse skill tracking with clear thought and clear writing. If you're not a good writer and you're not good at generating good writing,

Speaker 1 good step-by-step way to do something to build the proper prompt, it can't do what you want. It doesn't deliver what you would like.
And so you'll spend extra time tweaking it and tailoring it

Speaker 1 to finally get to what you would like.

Speaker 1 But if you were good at writing, which comes from spending a lot of time in literature,

Speaker 1 and you're good at research, which helps you figure out the steps to be able to get a result you'd like, combining those and learning how and understanding how

Speaker 1 a generative AI, in particular in prompt engineering, the skill that you need to do it, you're stacking those or you're staircasing all of those and you're going to be able to generate way better results in generative AI and other thing.

Speaker 1 And more importantly, even with people, being able to guide them to approach that, you're going to get the results matched there, which is better for everyone.

Speaker 1 Hopefully that's not a change roundabout way to get there. But I think, yeah, now lifelong learning is an outdated concept and

Speaker 1 it lacks focus for some people where the skill stacking is a little more concentrated and it will help you really build that cheese.

Speaker 1 But again, it's not going to be specific in an area, but you can apply it across swath of areas and it'll really help you advance your career and advance whatever you want to do to be a standout kind of person.

Speaker 1 I kind of agree. or disagree with what you just said.

Speaker 1 Lifelong learning is

Speaker 1 about the attitude, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 Lifelong learning isn't just about acquiring new knowledge.

Speaker 1 It's about figuring out how you learn best.

Speaker 1 Some people thrive in classroom settings or in-person workshops, while others prefer self-paced digital formats. The methods vary, but the goal is the same, which is to keep growing, to keep learning.

Speaker 1 When it comes to skill stacking,

Speaker 1 I see it as something deeper.

Speaker 1 You mentioned it's about purposefully merging diverse skills to solve complex challenges. And I think you're right.

Speaker 1 What's often missing isn't the means to learn. We have more access than effort to tools, training, and knowledge.

Speaker 1 The gap lies in connecting the dots between those skills and leveraging them in meaningful ways to multiply the impact.

Speaker 1 In my view, we are living in a tool economy, tool T-O-O-L.

Speaker 1 Everything is about the tool, whether it's ChatGPT, today, Google, yesterday, or whatever the next hot thing will be. The mindset is, if you have a problem, there's a tool for that.
Need a solution?

Speaker 1 Just grab a hammer, a screwdriver.

Speaker 1 What is the problem? Most of the time, those tools are just solving service-level symptoms, not addressing the deeper underlying issues.

Speaker 1 It's like putting a band-aid on a cut without treating the infection.

Speaker 1 Sure, the immediate problem looks solved, but the root cause persists.

Speaker 1 And people end up repeating the same mistakes.

Speaker 1 I see this pattern a lot, especially among knowledge workers.

Speaker 1 They buy into the idea of lifelong learning, sign up for courses, pay for certifications and stack up all these skills. But they don't actually go anywhere with them.
Why?

Speaker 1 Because the key isn't just acquiring skills, is in connecting them, applying them to real-life scenarios, case by case, and solving problems with them in an integrated manner.

Speaker 1 So the missing piece is less about technical skills and more about human skills, what most people call soft skills.

Speaker 1 Problem solving, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, communication, these are the connective tissue that make skills decking impactful.

Speaker 1 Without them, you're just collecting tools in a toolbox you don't know how to use effectively.

Speaker 1 That's where I think the future of lifelong learning needs to focus.

Speaker 1 Not just teaching new skills, but on helping people build the connections between them and apply them in meaningful impactful ways it's not about the tools themselves it's about what you build with them

Speaker 1 i agree yeah you you have brought the other hand that i'm not going to say that i'd forgotten But what I would add to what you're saying, and it's way the key chord, in

Speaker 1 the skill stacking, i differentiate between calling the person and calling the professional all the time

Speaker 1 so skill stacking those are skills back for my

Speaker 1 calling the person that's where lifelong learning for me

Speaker 1 and always will and so i'm very clear on what's the differentiator Because what you can do is if you're people like us or those listening that are like us, if you've got a whole crazy

Speaker 1 horizon of areas that you're interested in and you've read about, studied, done whatever to build up knowledge, it can be impossible to connect all the dots and make them all skipped.

Speaker 1 I love reading modern African history. I have three shelves of books in my house that are all about the Democratic Republic of the Congress.
I am never going to use that, at least not now.

Speaker 1 Oh, I got to go get that PhD in red.

Speaker 1 Or I need to go and this thing that I've been invested in for a long time and I enjoy reading about and it is a form of learning doesn't need to be something that I'm going to incorporate into my work life.

Speaker 1 And I purposely keep it separate. And that's the same thing of the musical instruments that happen to be gathering in bust, unfortunately, in the back of my room.
Those are also skills.

Speaker 1 that I'm learning throughout my life just for my own enjoyment. And I'm totally with you on the law of the instrument, right?

Speaker 1 If everything, if you've got a hammer and you're doing it, then it looks like a needle.

Speaker 1 I sit on a number of groups where we support startups and tech founders and entrepreneurs. And the drive to just leap to the solution because I think I can sell a widget to somebody.

Speaker 1 Rather than understanding to your point, like, is this actually a problem or is this a set of or something else? It just drives me nuts.

Speaker 1 And so we're just going to end up with now the toolkit is going to have 7,000 tools, 6,800 of which I don't know how to use, and 50 that are actually useful for me to figure out any kind of a dilemma that I'm preparing.

Speaker 1 I think, yeah, I think you've done Vinth a good job of reminding me that maybe the lifelong learning thing should be just for life.

Speaker 1 And the skill stacking should be where we focus on potentially getting the right kind of multi-skilled person who, to your point, doesn't just look down and build a tool, but is able to interact with others, is able to be empathetic, show emotional intelligence, all those kinds of things that I think maybe sometimes get sharp to the side over the, let's build the technical experience and skill ourselves up with.

Speaker 1 Now I know not just C ⁇ ,

Speaker 1 but I also know all of these other JavaScript and other kind of software so I can build my own AI model. Let's go ahead, right?

Speaker 1 Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media.

Speaker 1 I'm Viz Shen, your ambitious human host.

Speaker 1 Until next time, take care.