Confidence Classic: NEVER Let Imposter Syndrome Hold You Back with Michelle “Mace” Curran Former Fighter Pilot & Founder of Upside Down Dreams

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Speaker 2 I think it's a false assumption that a lot of people have that vulnerability equals weakness, equals people looking down on you, not respecting you. It hurts your credibility.

Speaker 2 But I think about the leaders that I had that I worked for throughout my career and the ones that really

Speaker 2 changed my trajectory and were the best to work for and built these amazingly cohesive teams were the ones that would admit when they didn't know something, when they didn't have the answers, and didn't always appear confident and unwavering.

Speaker 2 There's a time for that, especially in the military. But when you have those walls up all the time, it actually

Speaker 2 turns out to be a weakness.

Speaker 1 Come on this journey

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Speaker 1 Meet a different guest each week.

Speaker 3 I'm so excited for you to meet my guest today, Michelle, or you can call her Mace Curran. She has led an impressive career as a fighter pilot during her 13 years in the United States Air Force.

Speaker 3 From 2019 to 2021, she flew as the only female pilot for the Air Force Thunderbirds and performed for millions across the country and internationally.

Speaker 3 Michelle was also named the Distinguished Alumna of the Year by the University of St. Thomas in 2021.

Speaker 3 She's been featured on several well-known media platforms, including the Kelly Clarkson Show, CBS Evening News, Glamour, and of course, today on Creating Confidence.

Speaker 3 Before joining the Thunderbirds, Michelle was a combat-proven fighter pilot, completing missions across Europe, Asia, and the Middle East.

Speaker 3 She has a passion for pushing her limits clearly, inspiring others, and changing lives.

Speaker 3 As the lead solo for the Thunderbirds, Michelle realized the flying was cool, but the best part was inspiring others to overcome their fears and pursue their dreams, just like she did.

Speaker 3 Since transitioning out of the military, she's founded her company, Upside Down Dreams, and is committed to empowering men and women of all ages to overcome obstacles and the fear of failure.

Speaker 3 She has inspired thousands through her passion for breaking barriers, setting the example of what can be accomplished through hard work. When she isn't speaking, she volunteers.

Speaker 3 I mean, this woman has an amazing family. She's living her best life.
Michelle, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Speaker 2 It's a pleasure to be here, Heather.

Speaker 3 When people hear about you being a fighter jet pilot, I mean, it sounds so crazy looking at you and seeing this very attractive young woman.

Speaker 3 You assume in your mind, and I know it's not the case, but I want you to share with everyone.

Speaker 3 I assume in my mind, like you grew up in this military family, you were groomed from day one to like fly jets. And you've always had this passion for flying and fighting.

Speaker 3 But tell me, is that what it was like growing up in your life?

Speaker 2 No, definitely not. I people, when I was on the Thunderbirds, would always be like, how did you get to this spot? Which is just such an open-ended question.

Speaker 2 I was like, well, how much time do you have? But I always would say that I kind of just stumbled into it, which is half joking, but sort of true.

Speaker 2 I grew up in a small town in northern Wisconsin, kind of in the middle of nowhere. I grew up in the country.
I was a really outdoorsy kid, very adventurous, but super shy, super quiet.

Speaker 2 I would be the last kid in class that would want to, you know, get in front of my peers, that would want to raise my hand. I was just a little bit of a wallflower.
And I was was also driven, though.

Speaker 2 So kind of a dichotomy there with being pretty quiet and introverted.

Speaker 2 But behind the scenes, I was working my butt off, which led to me being a straight A student, which eventually opened up a bunch of doors for me. But not a military family, not an aviation family.

Speaker 2 I never went to a single air show as a child, which is so funny now. But I needed a way to pay for college and Air Force ROTC kind of filtered to the top after exploring some options.

Speaker 2 And that was how I started down that path. But even for the first couple of years in that program, I was a criminal justice major.
I wanted to be an FBI agent or work for the CIA.

Speaker 2 And I still didn't know that I wanted to be a pilot. That kind of came halfway through college when I actually saw my first fighter jet.
I had never seen one.

Speaker 2 I'm, you know, here I am probably 20 years old, never seen a fighter aircraft fly.

Speaker 2 But I'm about to be in the Air Force in just a couple of years because you owe some time back when they pay for your education.

Speaker 2 And we visited a base and I saw a jet taking off in full afterburner with like the loud jet noise that vibrates your body, the afterburner flame shooting out the back.

Speaker 2 And I was like, holy crap, I want to do that. It was just like a visceral reaction.
I got so excited. I had never experienced that before.

Speaker 2 And it was an immediate decision to pivot and figure out what I needed to do to become a pilot.

Speaker 3 So I appreciate that you had that moment where you're like, wait a minute, this is calling to me. Like, this is something bigger than me.
Right. I totally, totally get that.

Speaker 3 However, most people, when they have that moment, they try to dismiss it. Like, who am I to say I could fly a fighter jet? Like, what do I know about this?

Speaker 3 How am I going to, how were you able to drop that imposter syndrome or transition from, you know, this one lifestyle to what could be possible for you?

Speaker 2 I definitely didn't drop the imposter syndrome. It was something that I struggled with for a lot of my career.
And we can talk more about that.

Speaker 2 I think the excitement was just so apparent to me that that kind of, for that moment at least, overrode all of those doubts.

Speaker 2 Those definitely came later as I got into the meat of becoming a fighter pilot and realized that there was a lot more to it than I thought. It was a lot more difficult than I thought.

Speaker 2 And there were a lot of intricacies of the demands of it, the culture fitting in. not being a lot of women in that field.
So there's a whole bunch more to go into there.

Speaker 2 But I think it was just that one moment I already knew I was going to the Air Force. I was already driven.
I mean, going to be an FBI agent or a CIA agent isn't an easy career choice either.

Speaker 2 Also both very male-dominated. So at that time as a, you know, young college student, I didn't quite realize what I was getting into.
And I was just all in. So I was a goal setter.

Speaker 2 I set that as my new goal and just worked towards it relentlessly until I got there.

Speaker 3 How were you able to hold yourself accountable in those earlier times, like making that leap into that unknown?

Speaker 3 For me, I know that's typically the hardest time when you're trying to find your footing and really don't have any credibility yet. How did you push yourself through those tough moments?

Speaker 2 It wasn't always as smooth as it probably seemed to an outsider. There were moments when even when I had gotten there where

Speaker 2 I hate to say this now because I talk to people about not doing this, but I guess that comes from my personal experience and the lessons lessons I learned.

Speaker 2 But there was a point early on in my career where I was fully qualified as a fighter pilot. So I've gone through all the formal training pipelines, which

Speaker 2 those are so, they're very demanding, but they also show you exactly the way. You know, here's your syllabus.
Here is your next test. Here's your next simulator.

Speaker 2 Here's your next check ride, your flight, whatever. This is how we rank people in the class.

Speaker 2 This is where you have to be in your class to, you know, have a chance to get a fighter aircraft because it's very competitive we had two in my class of 25 students so it's difficult but the path is the path to success is laid out in front of you and you're with all these people that are your peers that are struggling with the same thing so while i found that difficult and stressful i also did well in that environment where it was like here's clear cut this is how i compete this is how i do well um it was more when i got to my first combat squadron where

Speaker 2 i suddenly felt in way over over my head. And yes, I was with this squadron of other fighter pilots who are supposed to be, you know, my peers, my mentors, but I was the youngest.
I was brand new.

Speaker 2 I just stepped into this environment and I felt very alone.

Speaker 2 And there were points then when if I hadn't owed the Air Force a big long contract after they just spent millions of dollars to train me, I would have left.

Speaker 2 When the going got tough, like really tough, and all that self-doubt crept in and I really felt like an imposter. When I was at the worst part of that, I would have left if it was an option.

Speaker 3 But it just legitimately was not an option.

Speaker 2 It's not an option. I mean, you're in the military, you have a service commitment that you're signed to.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure there was an option to switch career fields and stay in the military. But the idea of letting other people down after I had just

Speaker 2 because from an outside perspective, people were very impressed with what I was doing. They're like, you know, she worked so hard.
She went on full ride to college.

Speaker 2 She decided she wanted to be a fighter pilot and boom, she made it happen, which is all true.

Speaker 2 But from the perspective that I was at at that point, I was in a place I shouldn't be and I didn't deserve to be there.

Speaker 3 Well, I'm glad that you share that because I know on the outside looking in, people always come up with their own stories, like, oh, of course it worked for her. She was such a great student.

Speaker 3 She could find a way. Of course, she belonged there.
And it's nice to hear that you actually felt like you didn't belong there.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think that's why I share that story now.
And I'm so transparent and vulnerable with with people as I speak about my career.

Speaker 2 The Thunderbirds kind of gave me this platform where I could really inspire a lot of people. And

Speaker 2 I could definitely do that by just being like, hey, look, I flew those cool jets really close together and upside down really fast.

Speaker 2 Like that's impressive enough on its own lasting impact when you're actually truthful and vulnerable with people and share what you really struggled with.

Speaker 2 Because they don't expect that when they see the finished product of a Thunderbird pilot. And suddenly you're super relatable.

Speaker 2 And instead of putting you on a pedestal and having this huge gap between where they are and where you are, which makes it really difficult for them to envision them achieving something like that, you just close that gap when you're like, hey, you know, all those things that you're worried about, that voice of self-doubt that chimes in, that.

Speaker 2 anxious feeling you get in your stomach when you're about to put yourself out. No, like I've been there.
I've struggled through all of that. I'm a a human just like you.

Speaker 3 When I think of fighter jets, and the only thing I know is Top Gun, which I'm sure a lot of people feel that the same way. I actually have been to the shows.
I've probably seen you fly.

Speaker 3 I've probably had that amazing experience, right? And so I, to me, it seems like other level, level confidence, other level swag, just people who have it so together.

Speaker 3 When you finally made it into this elite elite group, did you feel your confidence spike or did you feel different than the guys that you were surrounded with i still

Speaker 2 struggled with it i automatically had this credibility i guess and power to inspire people from just putting the uniform on overnight that was acquired from the day i went from a green flight suit to wearing the very very fitted blue flight suit um i suddenly was given that but I had done a lot of work leading up to being on the Thunderbirds to get myself to a point where I acknowledged, you know, my self-doubt and feeling like an imposter i knew it was a thing and something i struggled with but i had kind of learned to control it and i don't want to say fake it till you make it because i kind of hate that saying but i was able to acknowledge it and have perspective on it and realize that my perspective on where i was didn't always match up with the truth and with reality.

Speaker 2 And it's like super easy to write this narrative in your head. And it can be very difficult to actually shed light on how everyone else sees it.

Speaker 2 And sometimes it takes, you know, other people's perspectives to be like, oh, I'm actually doing great.

Speaker 2 And because there was a point earlier on when someone could have told me that over and over and over, and it wouldn't have mattered.

Speaker 2 They would have just bounced off and I would have gone home that day and been like, I'm not good enough to be here. But I learned to control that with some practice over time.

Speaker 3 Practice is huge. What about mentors? Was there anybody there mentoring you that was really pulling you along?

Speaker 2 So initially I did not have a mentor and I did not seek one out when I should have.

Speaker 2 When I was in that part of my career where I was really new and everything felt very overwhelming, I also felt like I had to prove myself in this new culture that I didn't really naturally fit in with, being a little bit more reserved.

Speaker 2 You seem top gun and. the personalities portrayed on there, you know, are very type A, in your face, confident, bordering on arrogant in the movie.
But

Speaker 2 I mean, that's the arrogance part isn't really true, true, but the confidence part is true. And I just didn't feel like I naturally fit into that.

Speaker 2 And so, one of the big ways that I dealt with that is I did not want to show weakness. I did not want to ask for help.
I had to prove myself.

Speaker 2 And so, it's very difficult to find a mentor and develop a deep relationship with anyone when you're afraid to be vulnerable with anyone in any of your peers, anyone in your career field.

Speaker 2 As I got into it a couple of years, I started to find other women, other female fighter pilots.

Speaker 2 The community is so small that we kind of seek each other out when we end up in the same country or city together. And so there were four of us.
Masawa, Japan was where I was first stationed.

Speaker 2 So way up north in Japan where they get a ton of snow, very isolated. There ended up being four of us.
And two of the women there were further along in their careers than I was.

Speaker 2 They had already been doing this for five, six years at that point. And they kind of started to take me under their wing.

Speaker 2 And once I got to a point where I felt like I could actually confide in them and I looked up to them. They were instructors.
They were well respected.

Speaker 2 And I started to realize that all those things I was dealing with, I wasn't the only one, that they had felt the same way.

Speaker 2 And so just realizing that I was not unique in those struggles was very empowering. So that definitely helped.

Speaker 2 And as I got further into my career, I realized the power of finding those people that can help guide you.

Speaker 2 And now, I mean, I would not have made the leap from being active duty military for my entire adult life to being an entrepreneur without so many people being willing to take calls from me and answer what are probably dumb questions and just, you know, mentor me along the way.

Speaker 2 So it's such a valuable resource, and I wish I would have realized that sooner. Meet a different guest each week.

Speaker 2 Confidence clearly.

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Speaker 1 I ask you to try to find your passion.

Speaker 3 You know, it's so interesting, Michelle, is that my background was I was in corporate America.

Speaker 3 And when you just described what it felt like that you wanted to appear incredibly strong, you wanted to appear confident.

Speaker 3 You didn't want to ask for help because you wanted people to think you warranted the spot that you had. That's exactly how I came up in corporate America and felt the same way.

Speaker 3 A very male-dominated business. I was one of, you know, only a handful of women.
And I remember thinking, like, put this mask on so that people will say, oh, she's a force to be reckoned with.

Speaker 3 When really inside, I was thinking, I am not a force to be reckoned with, but I'm going to sure pretend I am until I actually can become it. And yes, that does work.

Speaker 3 But to your point, it would have been so much more valuable to open up to a few people and ask for help and say, hey, I don't have all the answers. I'm really not that tough.

Speaker 3 I'm kind of putting a front on because the minute you start opening up that vulnerability and open that door, someone is going to step in to help you, which it sounds like happened for you.

Speaker 3 And it definitely happened for me. But I made it so much harder that it definitely didn't have to be.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's a false assumption that a lot of people have that vulnerability equals weakness, equals people looking down on you, not respecting you.

Speaker 2 It hurts your credibility.

Speaker 2 But I think about the leaders that I had that I worked for throughout my career and the ones that really changed my trajectory and were the best to work for and built these amazingly cohesive teams were the ones that would admit.

Speaker 2 when they didn't know something, when they didn't have the answers.

Speaker 2 They had people, they created a team, you know, that did have the answers, but they were the ones that didn't pretend they knew everything and didn't always appear confident and unwavering there's a time for that especially in the military but when you have those walls up all the time it actually that turns out to be a weakness so true that is so flipping true it's the reverse of what we thought So I want to talk a little bit about how there really were only four women in this role.

Speaker 3 And how did that differentiate you? How did you leverage that to your advantage? Or was that a weakness?

Speaker 3 How did that work in the military? Because to me, that sounds incredibly polarizing, but I wonder how that experience was like for you.

Speaker 2 So yeah, at that first assignment, there were four of us at that entire base, which had over probably about 100 F-16 pilots and there are four women.

Speaker 2 In the Air Force in general, about 2% to 3% at any given time of fighter pilots are women. So it's extremely small in the entire force.
Initially, I think I viewed it as a weakness.

Speaker 2 And that was part of that disconnect of not feeling like I could be my true self at work and like I had to fit into this culture that I didn't naturally align with. And like I had something to prove.

Speaker 2 I always felt like I was under a microscope. And honestly, that never went away because I was.

Speaker 2 You have the people that rally around you and are so inspired by you, especially once I was in the visible role of being on the Thunderbirds.

Speaker 2 But then I also had the people that were just watching like a hawk waiting for me to fail. And I was acutely aware that they were there.

Speaker 2 But as I got to the point where I applied to be a Thunderbird pilot, I saw it as a strength because

Speaker 2 this isn't a combat squadron. It's not the same mission set as the other units.

Speaker 2 The mission of the Thunderbirds is to recruit, obviously, but also to inspire people, inspire people that might never join the military, just inspire people in general.

Speaker 2 to step into that role. There hadn't been another female pilot on the team for five years at that point.
I was the fourth one one to come on to fly in the demo in the teams.

Speaker 2 It'll be 70 years since the team's been around next year. So the first one was in 2005 and there had been a five-year gap.
And so I saw my gender in that role.

Speaker 2 And when your mission is to inspire and every single demo pilot is a white male, being a woman is a strength. And there were no lowered standards.

Speaker 2 My flying had to be as good as everyone else's because it's very small margins for air error and with high repercussions, obviously.

Speaker 2 But the other part of the mission, I could reach people that they could never reach. And I became very aware of that.

Speaker 2 And I tried to use that as much as possible to reach as many people as I could in that three years that I was in that role.

Speaker 3 For people who don't understand, haven't been to one of your shows, because I'm visualizing, you know, the planes stacked on top of each other and one's upside down.

Speaker 2 But for people who haven't seen it, can you just explain a little bit about what really goes on what you guys were doing yeah so i'll give you kind of the broad description if no one or for people that haven't seen the thunderbird so six aircraft f-16s fighter aircraft they've probably seen top guns so kind of similar that's the f-18 but same idea we would fly in formation all six of us and we would be anywhere from 18 inches to three feet apart during that we do rolls loops so we're going fully upside down We're doing all kinds of precise maneuvering very close together.

Speaker 2 And those are at speeds of over five, well, up to 500 miles an hour in formation, over 400 miles an hour consistently. Then you have the solos, which is the role that I played.

Speaker 2 So I was the lead solo number five. And number five and number six, the solos will split off from the other four aircraft.

Speaker 2 And we do the maneuver you described where one person's upside down, one person's right side up. And there's...

Speaker 2 There's some trickery and angles that are being played with there to make it look like the jets are touching when they obviously aren't, but still very close together my second and third year on the team when i became the lead solo i was always the one that was inverted so i spent a lot of time hanging upside down it was actually a pretty cool role to be in as the only female pilot because i had my hair braided and i have my helmet sitting here behind me my braid would hang out the back of my helmet and when i would fly upside down the braid would stick up and so you could actually see it from the ground and you would see it in photos and it was like this beacon to women and little girls that they could see from the ground if they look closely.

Speaker 2 So that was really cool to to be in the role where I was, you know, the pilot that was flying upside down all the time. But yeah, we would fly as fast as we could without breaking the sound barrier.

Speaker 2 So over 600 miles an hour for people that are familiar with G-forces. I would pull up to nine Gs, which is nine times the weight of your body pushing down on you.

Speaker 2 So there's, we could do a whole episode just on what that feels like.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's, it's a lot. It's, you have to be very focused.
It's very hard on the body. It's like being a professional athlete because we were flying all the time.

Speaker 2 It's very impressive visually and it's very impactful for people when they see the show.

Speaker 3 It's incredible. What role does trust and culture amongst the team play? And how were you guys able to develop that amongst one another at such a major level?

Speaker 2 Yeah, trust is absolutely critical. And I mean, there were times we were together all the time.
There are 12 officers on that team. The same six pilots fly in the demonstration every single show.

Speaker 2 We don't have any backups. So you are with those people all the time.
And you're on the road like you were a band on tour, right? March through November, you're gone.

Speaker 2 240 days of the year, you're away from home. So you see these people more than you see your family.

Speaker 2 So you are in a little bit of a pressure cooker, which means there, of course, will be little personality conflicts.

Speaker 2 Not everything is perfect all the time, but the environment and the culture there, there's this extreme level of accountability where the standards are laid out to an extreme level and you're taught

Speaker 2 very specific, precise standards that you need to meet. And every single flight that you fly, you come back in, you have a video taken from the ground.

Speaker 2 like the crowd's perspective that is a recording.

Speaker 2 You have the video from inside your aircraft that shows your airspeed your altitude your g-forces all of that every single flight you sit down with all the other pilots and you analyze that and figure out everything that went wrong and how you can do it better and there's never a perfect flight net like we had some really good flights especially on the third year when you're pretty experienced but there's never a perfect flight and just having that that expectation set that this is what we do every time we're going to look at this.

Speaker 2 And it doesn't matter who you are on the team, whether you're the boss leading it or you're the person that's your first year.

Speaker 2 The expectation is you admit the mistakes you made and we all look at how we can get better from them.

Speaker 2 So there's this huge level of humility that's built in that I think is people don't expect after they see Hollywood's portrayal of fighter pilots. But that is how we operate it on such a high level is

Speaker 2 no mistakes are brushed under the rug. Everyone's willing to admit them because we realize it's for the betterment of the entire team.

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Speaker 3 That's so powerful, that level of accountability. And whether that be in business or flying a jet, right? Like just introducing that really high standard.

Speaker 3 And like you said, it's offering up humility because we all make mistakes. We're going to make mistakes every day, but let's embrace them.
Let's roll that tape again and see how we can get better.

Speaker 3 And as you know, now that I'm sure you're doing a lot of speeches, I often watch back my speeches, which I'm sure you do now that you're describing this, right? To like roll back that tape.

Speaker 3 Where did I go wrong? How, what could I have done better? What did people respond to or not? It is not comfortable watching that footage, my friends.

Speaker 3 I mean, how do you feel when you're watching that kind of footage?

Speaker 2 No, I mean, so this is a whole new world to me, especially. So I'm definitely hard on myself.
And I'm like, oh, like, what are you doing with your hand? Like, why are you making that face?

Speaker 2 Your voice cracked right there. Like, are you a 13-year-old boy? Like,

Speaker 2 what's happening? So I try to keep perspective that, like, on the Thunderbirds, the stuff that I recognize and don't think went well, the audience probably didn't even notice.

Speaker 2 But I want it to be as good as possible. I want to over-deliver in everything that I do.

Speaker 2 And I want even people that are familiar with my background, with my story, that got on a call with me before I went and spoke for them that were already on board. They were already teammates.

Speaker 2 And they, you know, the advocate and the company that got me on that stage, I want them to be like, she was so much better than I expected.

Speaker 2 I think that's just kind of ingrained in my personality at this point with 13 years of living in that culture all the time. But there's definitely some lessons there that, you know, any team can pull.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. What about, is there a fine line between holding yourself accountable to high standards and perfectionism and beating yourself up? How do you navigate that?

Speaker 2 Oh, absolutely. I struggled with that early in my career while I was still trying to figure out how to differentiate those things and kind of realizing that everyone

Speaker 2 has those failures, those setbacks, those struggles. And being in a setting where people are admitting them right after the flight is a great visual for showing you that.

Speaker 2 Even, you know, the most experienced pilots, the most respected pilots in your unit. are still making mistakes and being around people that are willing to fess up to them.

Speaker 2 And especially in, I had a couple of different environments that I was in where you felt like you were judged and ridiculed when you made a mistake, even though they would say all day long you weren't.

Speaker 2 And then another,

Speaker 2 a different unit, so a different group of people where it just felt so obvious that you weren't judged and ridiculed. Like it was this, I call it a culture of trust where you trusted.

Speaker 2 They talk about psychological security, right? Where you can fail and it's okay.

Speaker 2 You can make mistakes and we'll learn from the mistakes and we'll take whatever the results were of those mistakes and we'll own them and we'll deal with them.

Speaker 2 Sometimes they can be pretty serious, you know, depending what the mission is, but we're not going to look at that person and start attacking them and breaking down their character.

Speaker 2 Like that does not benefit us. And so just being brought up in the environment where I started to recognize the difference between those two.

Speaker 2 and how much better I performed in one over the other, like the carrot or the stick, stick, right? The stick works, but it's not sustainable.

Speaker 2 And that starts to break down that trust between everyone on the team over time.

Speaker 2 So I think that helped give me perspective on the mistakes that I would make.

Speaker 2 But I mean, if it was something big or something that I knew I was better than that I shouldn't have done, not just something small.

Speaker 2 I'm like, I'm a better pilot than what I just showed, or I'm a better officer or teammate or whatever. I mean, it would bother me.
So I think it's something I still struggle with.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think it's something that a lot of people struggle with, especially when they're holding themselves to these really high standards.

Speaker 3 And to your point, when you're in these cultures where people really aren't embracing failure and they don't want you to have it, and I love that you brought that up.

Speaker 3 The difference being in an environment that really is full of trust and support versus one that verbalizes they are, but you know, you are being judged and you are not supported, is such a polar opposite.

Speaker 3 And there is just no way you'll ever thrive to the same level if you don't find that true, loyal, embracing, supportive culture. It is such a game changer.
Okay.

Speaker 3 So I want to talk a little bit about, first of all, you made this incredible leap into becoming a jet fighter pilot, which is crazy insane.

Speaker 3 You overcame so much fear, so much, you know, lacking confidence, self-doubt, imposter syndrome. You overcame all that.
Now you made it to the pinnacles. You're inspiring people.

Speaker 3 You're loving what you're doing. You have passion and purpose.

Speaker 3 How do you go from that to making a leap like, oh, hey, let me jump into the dark again and start over as an entrepreneur having no idea and I'll be your rookie again and start over.

Speaker 3 Like, what thrusts you into wanting to do that again?

Speaker 2 So, a couple of things.

Speaker 2 There was the assignment I had before joining the Thunderbirds, which is when I had to decide to apply to the team, I went through some very intentional self-work, I guess you would call it, mindset shifting because I was coming off of that.

Speaker 2 that time in Japan that I mentioned where I was just filled with self-doubt and struggling with that. And I was over it as I got to this next vibe.
I was not the person I wanted to be.

Speaker 2 I was sick of pretending. And I just got to a point where I realized no one was coming to save me, that I

Speaker 2 had to save myself. And that was such a scary realization, I think, but then it rapidly became extremely empowering.

Speaker 2 And so I went through this time of just promising myself I would say yes to things that came up because I'd recognized earlier in my career, there were times when, you know, an opportunity to go to some specialized training or lead a big high profile project or something like that, and where they're looking for volunteers.

Speaker 2 And I knew I should do it.

Speaker 2 It's going to make me a better pilot, a better leader, whatever, but I wouldn't volunteer because that fear of the chance of failing and vulnerability that comes with putting yourself out there would overpower that.

Speaker 2 And so as I got to this new, I, you know, I moved from Japan to Texas. So physical change of location, entirely a new group of people that helped, of course, act as a catalyst.

Speaker 2 And that new squadron had that culture of trust that I mentioned.

Speaker 2 But I made a conscious promise to myself, which I feel like sounds so cheesy, that I would make the bold choice when those chances, when those forks in the road came up, and they were so obvious, because I would feel that initial draw, but then I would feel that anxious doubt creep in almost immediately.

Speaker 2 So I became acutely aware of what that felt like. And I made a promise to start making those bold decisions.
And it was little things.

Speaker 2 it was like signing up for a marathon i traveled to nepal by myself and trekked ever space camp i started doing technical mountaineering i became an instructor pilot i deployed for the first time all of these things that are fairly insignificant by themselves but it's almost like you train your body when you're learning a new sport or when you're working out and you get stronger and stronger faster and faster you can do that with your mind and with your level of discomfort that you can tolerate right like you walk into a really cold pool and it sucks at first.

Speaker 2 And then you're in there for five, 10 minutes and you're like, oh, come in, the water's great.

Speaker 2 As your friend's like, no, this water feels terrible because your body adjusts and you get used to it and your tolerance for discomfort goes up for that short amount of time.

Speaker 2 And you can train yourself to do that. And so I'd done that over these about two years leading up to applying for the Thunderbirds.
And that's what even

Speaker 2 which applying to the team is terrifying. It's super intimidating.
It's very vulnerable. You're put on the spot.
You're asked all kinds of questions. You're interviewed by a panel of 12 people.

Speaker 2 You're put on camera and like do a mock TV interview, which is something I'd never done and was terrifying at first. So I did that.

Speaker 2 I got to a point where I was willing to be brave enough to put myself out there, apply. I become a Thunderbird.
And now I'm looking at my time on the team ending. It's normally a two-year gig.

Speaker 2 I ended up doing three years because the pandemic threw a wrench in 2020. And honestly, before the pandemic, I was already planning on leaving active duty.

Speaker 2 I just knew I was ready to do something else and I wanted a little bit more control of my life.

Speaker 2 And so I was looking at jobs and sales and tech. I was looking at going to the airlines, which is what a lot of people do when they leave.
And then the pandemic happened.

Speaker 2 And now my time to leave the military and go into the civilian world has shifted right an entire year.

Speaker 2 And the economy, who knows what's happening, the airline industry, who knows what's happening. So it forced me to kind of reflect on what I really wanted if the airlines wasn't an option.

Speaker 2 And it just gave me more time to think outside of kind of the status quo of what people would expect.

Speaker 2 And I realized that the part of being on the team on the Thunderbirds that I loved the most, the flying was super fun.

Speaker 2 It was the most fun flying in my career, was that feeling I got when I saw you know this kid or this woman or whoever it was come up and I would have a conversation with them and I could see it impact them and I could see it change them.

Speaker 2 And I was on the team long enough at that point where people had started to circle back and update me on things that they had gone after.

Speaker 2 And I would tear up when I would tell my husband about these messages I would get on Instagram, where, you know, some girl had reached out to me two years prior and I had had a really short conversation with her as she went into whatever new thing it was.

Speaker 2 And then she's like, hey, I don't know if you remember me, but I got that promotion or I got that dream job or I went to that college or whatever it was. And it was just so fulfilling.

Speaker 2 And so I started to think about how I could still impact people at that level.

Speaker 2 And I had a couple of mentors at this point who I met while I was on the Thunderbirds that were in the media space and did some speaking.

Speaker 2 And they were like, hey, there would be a market for you to get into speaking. And I think you could really impact people.
positively. And at first I kind of was like, oh, yeah, sure, whatever.

Speaker 2 But then that little seed that had been planted started to grow into something bigger and I started to explore it.

Speaker 2 And I think it was the combination of that, that self-reflection, but then also that that mindset that I had trained myself to have where I know that I can make it happen.

Speaker 2 That's what allows me to take a leap of faith from, you know, working for the government, active duty military, you do have a security blanket. You have job security.

Speaker 2 You know how much you're going to get paid. You know, you're going to get paid.
You have health insurance, all the things.

Speaker 2 And going to be an entrepreneur, a solo entrepreneur is just so on the opposite end of that spectrum. But kind of just that realizing that I had the power, I hold the cards, I control my success.

Speaker 2 I took that leap without a lot of fear, which was hard for a lot of people to understand.

Speaker 2 But I'm what, seven months into it, and I have not regretted it for a second.

Speaker 2 Even the days where I've been trying to fall asleep and I'm suddenly like, How am I going to pay my bills next month?

Speaker 2 Because you have that, especially when you're.

Speaker 3 The struggle is real. Yes, this is real.

Speaker 2 But I believe in my own ability to save myself so much that I can deal with those small moments of doubt and push through them. And

Speaker 2 I'm so motivated and so excited right now. And it's so rewarding.
I'm loving every second of it.

Speaker 2 Confidence clearly.

Speaker 2 I ask you to try to find your passion.

Speaker 3 The one thing that really seems to drive you is that sense of purpose. Of course, you know, I truly believe that's when you find what your purpose is on this planet, like it's magic, right?

Speaker 3 And you found yours when you were getting these messages and these people were coming up to you and it's just propelled you to new heights.

Speaker 3 I truly believe that purpose is just, it's such a catalyst to getting you to move through fear. Like you said, you trained yourself for it, right? You need to put in those reps.

Speaker 3 You've got to force yourself into the cocktail parties you don't want to go to. You got to force yourself into the classes that you don't, you want to step up and teach.
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 It's like climbing a ladder. You get stronger and stronger and go higher and higher and you can just go for that much more.

Speaker 3 But when you align with your purpose and what you're really meant to do, there's something so much bigger than ourselves that's at work behind you. Do you get that sense?

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard to describe it to people.

Speaker 2 because you're like, oh, I'm passionate about it. And they're like, well, weren't you passionate about, you know, flying F-16s? Like that, like, that's a dream job.
Everyone wants to do that.

Speaker 2 People will give their right arm to have that. Why would you walk away from it?

Speaker 2 And I think just the fulfillment that I felt from the secondary part of the mission while I was on the team of being able to impact people in a positive way was more fulfilling than anything I ever experienced in the cockpit, which is hard to explain to people and can be difficult to see from the outside.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I know it's there. I feel it.
And it drives me every day. And it's just so cool to be in a spot where I own my destiny, which sounds really, I'm not talking like in a magical fairy sense, right?

Speaker 2 Like manifesting if I stay here long enough, but I'm talking about like, what do I want my life to look like? Setting that as the light at the end of the tunnel.

Speaker 2 And what do I need to do to make it happen? Like you, you actually do manifest your success. I mean, and that's, that's how you do it.

Speaker 3 So you do believe in manifesting.

Speaker 2 I guess. I think it's just not the, I don't know, maybe I have a

Speaker 2 incorrect understanding of the definition of manifesting, but I feel like you, you think of people with like, or at least I do, people with like meditating and crystals and that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 I'm more, I guess I do use visualization and we use it in the cockpit all the time to rehearse stuff. We call it chair flying, but.

Speaker 2 you know, sitting in your desk chair and flying through a flight and all of the pinch points. And I do that with speaking as well.

Speaker 2 I always always ask for a picture of the venue because I want to see what I don't want to walk in there and think it's going to be 500 people and then it's like 50 and they're in folding chairs and I think it's this and that just messes with your mind.

Speaker 2 So yeah, all about visualization.

Speaker 2 Maybe I'll get more into manifesting.

Speaker 3 I totally agree. Not only do I disagree on this, but I've had neuroscientists on the show to talk about how powerful visualization is and why people are so successful when they use it.

Speaker 3 I'm not surprised at all that you were using it when you're flying planes.

Speaker 3 And I'm so glad you're using it with speaking when I was giving my TED Talk, I watched TED Talks every single night for probably six months, you know, because I wanted to see that red circle and I wanted to immerse myself in the red circle and visualize myself being there.

Speaker 3 I went to the venue ahead of time. I took photos of everything.
I took video of everything.

Speaker 3 just like you because i wanted to feel so familiar and so comfortable in that place even before i ever got up and took that stage so for anyone listening and visualize and visualize more because this stuff works and align with your purpose even if you you haven't found it yet, keep getting out there, testing and trying different things.

Speaker 3 Because, Michelle, you never thought when you were a kid that you'd end up being an inspirational speaker speaking all around the world to companies and inspiring people, right?

Speaker 3 You had no idea that was going to be your purpose of life.

Speaker 2 That was my worst nightmare. I was such a shy kid, I wouldn't even raise my hand in class.
You know, being put on the spot in front of 15 other students was terrifying.

Speaker 2 And I've had a couple of people be like, so, you know, some of of the most common fears that people have are flying,

Speaker 2 public speaking, like, what's next? And I'm like, if it better not involve spiders, because that's where I draw the line. But you just learn to control the fear.

Speaker 2 It doesn't just disappear. You just learn to recognize it as what it is and do it anyway.

Speaker 3 Have you had the imposter syndrome issue with the speaking business?

Speaker 2 Not as much, but there have been a few few distinct points.

Speaker 2 My first paid event was at a private school and it was high schoolers and I felt like it was very easy to speak to them, even though that's terrifying for a lot of people.

Speaker 2 It was an all-boys school as well, which is just, which is funny. I think it was great for them to hear my perspective.
But I had just started doing it.

Speaker 2 It was a couple of weeks later and I had a big financial institution reach out.

Speaker 2 And they're like, hey, our wealth management branch, the leaders of our wealth management branch are having a small quarterly meeting with 20 of them.

Speaker 2 Next week in like six days, we want you to fly there and speak to them.

Speaker 2 And I was like, in my head, they were all like six-year-old dudes in suits that were all going to be like, who's this girl talking to us? That is not what it was like at all.

Speaker 2 But I had one of those distinct moments that I talked about before where I'm like, you will make a bold choice. And I got off the call and I was like, I was in this office and I was here by myself.

Speaker 2 And I was like, holy crap. Am I ready? Like I was talking out loud to myself.

Speaker 2 Am I ready for this? And then I was like, they're willing to pay me a full fee to fly me there next week. I'm not doing anything else.
Like I have a couple of calls I can move.

Speaker 2 Why would I say no to this opportunity? Because my initial reaction had been that anxiety where I was like, oh my gosh, this is. I am not good enough yet to speak to this audience.

Speaker 2 This is high stakes. They're paying a lot of money.
Like, what if I don't don't deliver?

Speaker 2 It went awesome. And I've stayed in touch with a bunch of the people that I met there.
It was just such a great group. It was a great experience.

Speaker 2 And I was like, I am reminded again to not get in my own head because I could have totally said, no, it's only a week away. I'm not available and sabotaged myself.
I considered doing that.

Speaker 3 Well, I'm so proud you made the bold choice. You're inspiring me to make the bold choice today and every day.

Speaker 3 And hopefully for everybody listening, Michelle, how can people get in contact with you, keep up with you and and join you on this journey?

Speaker 2 So I put out quite a bit of content on both Instagram and on LinkedIn. I've grown a decent little tribe of people on Instagram, which is Mace, my call sign, underscore Kern, my last name.

Speaker 2 I put a lot of jet videos out, like cockpit videos. So if they scroll back a little bit, they can ride along on a whole bunch of different flights because there's probably over 100 videos on there.

Speaker 2 And then as I jumped into the entrepreneurship world, LinkedIn, I post almost every day there. It's just Michelle Mace Kern.
So my call sign and quotes in the middle.

Speaker 2 And I talk about a lot of the stuff we talked about today, imposter syndrome, trust.

Speaker 2 I put a lot of cool visuals with it, cockpit videos when we talk about trust, different videos from my career, from mountaineering. It's resonated really well with people.

Speaker 2 And it's been really fun to reflect on things I've learned. and translate it into something that can benefit other people.
So those are the two biggest places. And I do actually read all my DMs.

Speaker 2 I do not respond to all of them, but I respond to most of them.

Speaker 2 So that's the best way to reach out for business stuff, for media stuff, for questions, LinkedIn and Instagram.

Speaker 3 Well, Michelle, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for all the work you're doing.
And thank you for making your bold choices and inspiring us to do the same. Guys, check out Michelle.

Speaker 3 You'll catch her links below. And we'll see you next week.

Speaker 3 I couldn't be more excited for what you're going to hear. Start learning and growing.
Inevitably, something will happen. No one succeeds alone.

Speaker 3 You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

Speaker 1 I'm on this journey with me.