The Confession, Part 3

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Speaker 1 Trevell, how are you?

Speaker 2 I'm well. I'm well.
I'm very grateful and I'm happy to, happy to be, be talking to you

Speaker 2 on this side.

Speaker 1 On this side.

Speaker 1 How long have you been out?

Speaker 2 Well, today it will be like a little under a month. Thursday will be a full month, a full four weeks.

Speaker 1 Last month, Trevell Coleman was released from prison after nearly 14 years.

Speaker 1 We first met him at Fishkill Correctional Facility last summer. In 1993, when he was 18 years old, he shot a man three times in Harlem.

Speaker 2 And I didn't plan on actually doing anything. I just had a gun.
And I was riding around and, you know, I happened to see a guy, you know what I mean? and um

Speaker 2 I was like okay well

Speaker 2 you know you know maybe I could just rob this guy you know

Speaker 1 Trevell rode away on his bicycle without knowing what had happened to the man for years and years he didn't tell anyone about that night the police never suspected him

Speaker 1 we shared Trevell's story in two episodes we released last fall They're called The Confession, Part 1 and 2.

Speaker 1 Trevell told us that he always thought about the man he'd shot and 17 years after the shooting travelle walked into a police station and turned himself in he was 36

Speaker 2 you know i started thinking about it more and more i'm like well look like you know if anything did happen

Speaker 2 you know that you know that will be you know i just felt like that was the only way

Speaker 2 You know, I could I can resolve it. You know what I mean? Like,

Speaker 2 and then I just thought about it. Well, if I turn myself in, I could find out what happened to him.
And if something did happen,

Speaker 2 then here we go. You know what I mean? And then I could kind of move on, whatever,

Speaker 2 you know, whatever happens after that, you know.

Speaker 1 Because you didn't know if he was alive or dead.

Speaker 2 No, I didn't. I didn't know.
You know, you know, after a while,

Speaker 2 you know, I told myself he was all right, you know.

Speaker 2 But I still didn't know. You know, I didn't know.
I didn't know for sure.

Speaker 1 Did it get to a point where

Speaker 1 even though if he had died you knew that you would be going to prison for a very long time it didn't matter anymore nah it didn't matter it was like

Speaker 2 it is what it is at that point and that's how that's how i looked at it like whatever happens you know this is this is it

Speaker 1 after he turned himself in He learned that the man he had shot had died. His name was John Hengel.

Speaker 1 Trevell Coleman was sentenced to prison, 15 years to life.

Speaker 1 Trevell's lawyer, Steve Zeidman.

Speaker 3 You know, I've heard of people turning themselves in, but it's usually

Speaker 3 soon thereafter the crime, or it's somebody who knows law enforcement is looking for them. What makes this entirely unique is that Trevell was never a suspect in the first place.

Speaker 3 So no, I've never experienced anything like someone coming forward 17 years after the fact. So no, this is absolutely extraordinary.

Speaker 1 When we last spoke with Trevell and Steve, they had submitted a clemency application and were waiting to hear from the governor's office.

Speaker 1 And then, in December of last year, Steve got a phone call.

Speaker 3 Getting that call from the governor from my perspective,

Speaker 3 it's hard to put in words because clemency is so rarely granted, even in as compelling a case as Trevell's.

Speaker 3 So when a call comes, you know, there have been times they've actually said to me, take a a seat. We have some good news for you.

Speaker 3 This was one of those moments.

Speaker 1 Trevell was being granted clemency.

Speaker 2 That feeling right there was probably

Speaker 2 more

Speaker 2 concentrated than actually getting out. Because at that point, you know, you were, you know, we were anticipating, you know, something good happening.

Speaker 2 But then again, you have these doubts like, well, maybe not. We don't know.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 So it was kind of like a, you know kind of a roller coaster of emotions that i was going through at that time and so it was like a it was like a weight was lifted type of thing you know what i mean

Speaker 3 they can the governor has the power to commute a sentence and basically say you're going home tomorrow or they can do what they did in travelling's case they can say we're reducing your sentence to make you immediately eligible to see the parole board So I was thrilled to hear the news that clemency was granted.

Speaker 3 I was not so happy to hear that he wasn't immediately going home because the parole board is never, you know, you can't guarantee that.

Speaker 1 Tell me a little bit about

Speaker 1 what

Speaker 1 you heard the clemency was going to be granted, and then you were going to have to go in front of the parole board. What did you have to do to prepare to go in front of the parole board?

Speaker 1 Was that meetings between both of you, kind of what are we going to say? What's our case here?

Speaker 3 Yeah, the process of preparing for the parole board, it's pretty daunting.

Speaker 3 Trevell and I met, we talked about the interview, we exchanged a lot of emails about what to expect, what are the trickier questions, what are the hard questions, how do you respond.

Speaker 3 I know Trevell on the inside working with other, with peers. There was a parole preparation workshop run by the men inside.

Speaker 3 But it's gathering materials to give to the board to make the best case possible, keeping your fingers crossed that you don't get some of the parole board commissioners who are unlikely to release anybody, frankly.

Speaker 3 Once you get a parole board, they it's just a matter of chance about who are going to be the parole commissioners. And remember, this is on video, it's not in person.

Speaker 3 There's supposed to be three parole board members, often there are just two, and

Speaker 3 not a lot of notice about who's going to be in front. So you can only prepare so much.
From my perspective, I prepare for the worst.

Speaker 3 And by the worst, I mean the commissioners who are going to ask, frankly, what I think are ridiculous questions. You know, why do you deserve parole? What would you say to the victim's family?

Speaker 3 Those sorts of questions, which there really is no good answer as far as they're concerned.

Speaker 3 So you try and prepare, you go through every possible permutation, and then trying to make sure that Trevell feels as ready as he possibly can.

Speaker 1 I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.

Speaker 1 And are you thinking the whole time, if this doesn't go well,

Speaker 2 We've got one shot here.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know, it's interesting, you say that when Trevell got clemency and was made immediately eligible to see the parole board, there are a bunch of folks saying, well, the governor gave him clemency.

Speaker 3 Of course, the parole board is going to grant release, which to me is like that anybody would just assume that is a little frightening.

Speaker 3 So you see the board, if you're denied, they can set your next interview two years down the road. If you're denied, then they can set your next interview two years after that.

Speaker 3 So the stakes remained real high.

Speaker 1 So it's not as though, okay, we'll be back next week. Correct.
We'll take another number.

Speaker 1 We'll wait. It's years, potentially, of life.

Speaker 3 There have been people who've been denied parole 10, 12, 14 times. One of the first people I ever worked with was in 44 years on a 25 to life sentence.
He'd been denied parole 14 times.

Speaker 1 The day of the parole hearing, Trevell was brought to a building at Fishkill. The parole hearing would take place over a video call.

Speaker 1 While you were waiting to be called, were you with other people who were going up against the parole board that day?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, yes, it was about 10 of us.

Speaker 1 Did you talk beforehand? Before?

Speaker 2 Yeah, we talked. It was, you know, a lot of it was nervous chatter.
You know what I'm saying? We were just consoling each other, not consoling each other, but just, you know,

Speaker 2 kind of helping each other get through it. Yo, man, you know, don't worry about it.
You know, oh, you should be all right, you know, you know, one of those things. Yo, look, how long you been in?

Speaker 2 Oh, man, don't worry about it. You know, stuff like that.
You know,

Speaker 2 it was a

Speaker 2 couple of guys there that I actually knew that I actually worked with. So we sat there and talked, you know.

Speaker 1 How does it actually work? I mean, do you, Trevell,

Speaker 1 what happened during the hearing? Steve, you were there on Zoom or?

Speaker 3 No, you can't have anybody present.

Speaker 2 Trevell's there.

Speaker 2 On his own.

Speaker 2 I was just there. I was,

Speaker 2 you go in a room and

Speaker 2 you go, you sit down and you're right in front of like a like a TV. You're probably about that big.

Speaker 2 And then the people pop up and they pan around and they introduce everybody. And then they usually have one central person to ask all the questions.

Speaker 1 Were you nervous?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was nervous because, you know, I mean, you know,

Speaker 2 it was just intimidating. I never experienced anything like that, you know.

Speaker 2 I didn't know if I was going to say the wrong thing. I didn't know, you know, I didn't know the temperature of, you know, how those things work.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Do you remember the first thing they asked you?

Speaker 2 I think the first thing they asked me was,

Speaker 2 how do I see,

Speaker 2 like, how do I, how do I think I'm different now?

Speaker 2 I think that was one of the first questions because when I first sat down,

Speaker 2 they just kind of just ran down everything. Like, they were talking.
You know what I mean? They didn't like ask me anything. They just was like, oh, okay.

Speaker 2 You know, you're Trevell Coleman, and is that correct? You know, I think that was the first question, maybe. You know what I'm saying? I was like, yes.

Speaker 2 And then they decided, so you committed this crime this day and this and that. And then they start went on, they went on and on.
But then, you know, that was the first question.

Speaker 2 They said, so why do you,

Speaker 2 how do you think you're different now?

Speaker 1 Do you remember what you said?

Speaker 2 I mean, I just told them that I was a follower back then. You know, and, you know, I've learned to be more of an individual these days.

Speaker 2 And I understand that that I had to have a more righteous direction in order to live, you know, unlike, you know, I was living, you know what I mean? And I understood that.

Speaker 1 Trevell told them about what he would do if he got out. He wanted to get a job and work on his music.

Speaker 1 When it was over, how did you feel like it went? Were you still nervous?

Speaker 2 I was. I was nervous because

Speaker 2 I wasn't nervous. I was uncertain.
I didn't know, you know, at that point, you know, no, they don't give you any indication of what they're going to do.

Speaker 2 Like, they're just okay, you know, all right, good. Thanks for thanks for coming today.

Speaker 2 And I saw, you know, I knew a couple of guys that went in there and, you know, it seemed like they did well. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 And then they wound up, you know, telling me later, like, yo, man, I didn't make it. You know what I'm saying? So I didn't know, I was, I didn't know what to think.
You know what I mean? I was like,

Speaker 2 you know, all I could do was wonder.

Speaker 2 But the only thing that did help me get through

Speaker 2 those long, long

Speaker 2 seven days, they said, We'll be getting back to you early next week. And this was maybe a Wednesday.

Speaker 2 She said, We'll be getting back to you early next week. So, you know, the first thing I thought, Monday, I should have an answer.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 So, that's what kind of helped me get through the weekend. I said, Okay, Monday,

Speaker 2 we'll be right back.

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Speaker 1 Steve, you know, you knew the day that Trevell was going up against the board. Were you

Speaker 1 differently, of course, but in the same way thinking, oh,

Speaker 1 what's going to happen? What's going to happen? Kind of on pins and needles.

Speaker 3 Very nervous, very anxious. And you know, the thing about it, too, is

Speaker 3 a case like Trevell's, because it was, because of who he is and the high-profile nature, that adds an extra element of concern.

Speaker 3 Because ultimately, whether it's the governor, the parole board, they know that their decision is going to be public, right? It's going to be scrutinized. It's going to be in the media.

Speaker 3 And in the back of my mind, I just kept being fearful. that somehow that was going to tip the scale in the wrong way.

Speaker 1 Were you trying to be positive, though, to Trevell? Were you trying to not let your quiet fears show?

Speaker 3 Yeah, always, always. Remember the last time we saw each other, just saying, and I know it sounds like a cliché, but you know, you got this.
He had the answers to every question.

Speaker 3 We really didn't need to even prepare that much. And it's also the way people come across.
And I know that that's subjective for all of us, but

Speaker 3 I mean, some people come across as just thoughtful, mature, humble. And to me, that matters to the parole board, whether it should or not, is a a whole other thing.
But

Speaker 3 I, yeah, confident. And, you know, trying to convey confidence and keep some of my own fears to myself.

Speaker 3 You know, just because with each passing day, there are two ways to think about it. You know, you're thinking, okay, is it with each passing day, is that good or bad?

Speaker 3 You know, there was a way in which I was hoping, okay, this was Wednesday, Friday. They should just let you know Friday, you got parole.

Speaker 3 And when we didn't hear Friday, that kind of made me a little concerned.

Speaker 1 Drevell,

Speaker 1 did everyone know that you had gone up against the parole board? You know, your friends,

Speaker 1 was everyone kind of waiting along with you to hear what was going to happen?

Speaker 2 Inside, not outside.

Speaker 1 I mean, of course, outside, but.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, yeah, well, inside, you know, just the people that I dealt with, like the people in my unit, you know, I mean, it's kind of a big thing when you go to the parole, when you're inside, because everybody knows what time is a certain set, like a certain week when everybody goes to parole.

Speaker 2 So, you know, I like ran into a couple people while I was walking over there. So people know that you're going to parole, you know.

Speaker 1 So did the guards know? Did you speak to any of the guards about what was happening?

Speaker 2 Yeah, some of them, like I said,

Speaker 2 there's really no secrets in prison, you know.

Speaker 2 Even the guards, oh, yeah, I heard you went to parole the other day. Good luck, you know, stuff like that.
You know, they were most, mostly supportive.

Speaker 1 On the Tuesday after his parole hearing, April 2nd, Trevell was called into an office at Fishkill.

Speaker 1 And you didn't know when they just said, come down here. You'd You'd know it could have been.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it could have been bad. So the thing is,

Speaker 2 it's true. Now I know it's not really a legend.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 In prison, they say if you get, when you go in the office, if you get a small envelope, if the envelope is really, really thin, if you see it and they hand you that, then you'll probably coming home.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? But if you get a thick envelope,

Speaker 2 That means it has all your stipulations, the reasons why they denied you and all of this stuff in there. So if you see a thick envelope, like

Speaker 2 kind of like understand what's getting ready to happen, you know? And I kind of saw some on the desk, you know, so I'm like, oh, I didn't know which one was mine, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 So I'm like, oh, man.

Speaker 2 So then I sat down.

Speaker 2 And then the lady, she said, she, she, like, reached over and look, and my envelope was, like, super thin. Like, I was like, wait a minute.
This might be good right here, you know? So I opened it.

Speaker 2 And, you know, and at first I really didn't know what I was reading.

Speaker 2 she said she said um all right go to the second page and I went and I'm looking and you know I expected it to have like you know old letters like approved

Speaker 2 all right so I was like you know so I just like was looking and all I saw was a date and I saw the date so I looked at the date and I really couldn't believe what I was reading I was like how come it say four 429 24 And she was like, well,

Speaker 2 if that's what it says, you made it.

Speaker 2 According to her, she didn't know

Speaker 2 what the result was, you know, but she said,

Speaker 2 well, that means you made it. You know what I mean? I was like, oh, really? So I was like, wow.
I said, praise the creator.

Speaker 2 And she said, yeah, I mean, you know, you made some good decisions, you know.

Speaker 2 So congratulations.

Speaker 1 What was that walk

Speaker 1 back to your unit like?

Speaker 2 Just talking about it is like, I got a little jump, you know, butterfly.

Speaker 2 You know, it was the feeling was,

Speaker 2 it was just so liberating. Like, you know, I was able to walk and look at, you know, in fish care, you could look at the highway when you're walking by.
And it's just,

Speaker 2 it was like, wow, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 But the funny thing about jail is

Speaker 2 unless you're walking out the gate,

Speaker 2 you still like you, I mean, I'm still in jail, you know?

Speaker 2 I still, the only thing that was going through my mind was like, I still have to wait 25 more days, you know, so I'm like, okay.

Speaker 3 The part that then became a little sticky, and this is where corrections and government officials can be a little cavalier about time, because they had the time, the release date wrong.

Speaker 1 Technically, Trevell was eligible for immediate release, but that's not what the paperwork said.

Speaker 3 And to try and get someone to pay attention, because their first response is, hey, the guy got paroled. Good enough.
This is great. He's going home in a couple of weeks.
Everything is good.

Speaker 3 What do you need us to look into?

Speaker 1 So it wasn't done yet. You saw that and said, okay, well, now we have to fix this.

Speaker 3 It's not, you know, it's from my perspective, and this is an outsider looking in, it's not done until you walk out the gate. You know, I tell family members you can't, don't exhale completely.

Speaker 3 Clemency is beautiful. Celebrate, but we're not there yet.
The parole board, the interview, looks like it went well.

Speaker 3 And even when you get the letter saying you're going home, until you walk out, until you walk out.

Speaker 2 Yeah, basically.

Speaker 3 Then you can exhale, and then you can fully celebrate.

Speaker 2 You know, that day, everybody that went to the parole board, you know, I saw them. We were all going, they all called us all at the same time.

Speaker 2 So people were, you know, coming from wherever they were coming from. But you saw them with their papers in their hands.
Some of them were looking sad. Some of them were,

Speaker 2 you know, you could tell that they made it. You know what I mean? So for me, when I got back, you know, I was, I was, I was overjoyed, you know what I mean? But then, so when I got back,

Speaker 2 Steve, my daughter, and my wife, the first three people I emailed, boom. Emailed them, sent it out.

Speaker 2 Then I called my mother and I said, and she told me, she said, look, if you get paroled, don't call me and say, you know, get this long, drawn out thing and just try to, you know,

Speaker 2 look, my, I got, you know,

Speaker 2 she said, say it quickly, like, just call me and just say, I'm coming home, you know what I mean? So when I called her, that's exactly what I did, you know?

Speaker 2 I said, I said, ma, I said, she picked the phone up and she knew something was up because I don't, I don't usually call her before 11:30, you know, and this was like it was about 9:30-ish, like, you know, so I called her.

Speaker 2 She said, What's going on? I said, Ma. And I was, I was getting ready to draw it out, too.
And then I was like, Oh, I remember what she said. I said, I'm coming home.

Speaker 2 And she just was like, Oh, she just screamed so loud. I was like, Oh, man.
We just laughed and just, you know, it was just a joyous occasion, man.

Speaker 2 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1 Everything was lined up for Trevell's release on April 29th.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm mentally preparing for a whole month. I'm like, okay, I got a little time to get myself together and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 April 2nd, I never forget in the morning, they called me. They said, yo,

Speaker 2 they want you to come down to the office and sign out. I was like, sign out?

Speaker 2 I said, I don't go home for another like almost 30 days. You know what I mean? It was April 2nd.
I go home in 27 days. So I'm like, I said, sir, why are y'all calling me so early to sign out?

Speaker 2 I'm not going home until the 29th. So he says, oh, no, you're going home April 4th.
You're going home on Tuesday or Thursday.

Speaker 2 I was like,

Speaker 2 and it was Tuesday. I said, sir, I said, you serious right now? I'm going home two days from now? He was like, yeah.

Speaker 1 The mistake that had been made with his release date had been fixed.

Speaker 3 I mean, that's why things happen so fast. Is when they finally realized it, they said, okay, wait a minute.
He's going home Thursday.

Speaker 2 Oh, I never really knew what happened. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Who was there when you walked out of the gate?

Speaker 2 Oh, my mother. My mother was there.
My ex-wife, my sons, my aunt,

Speaker 2 a friend of mine that drove her up there, my brother.

Speaker 1 What was that drive up to Fishkill like?

Speaker 1 Before it even came out,

Speaker 1 what were you all talking about?

Speaker 2 We were like

Speaker 3 the kid the day before Christmas.

Speaker 2 Like, it was so

Speaker 2 just such excitement.

Speaker 1 Trevell's brother, Karan.

Speaker 2 That's all we could talk about.

Speaker 2 Like, we would stop talking about it for 30 minutes to try to change the subject, but would somehow get right back to the joy of knowing that he would be home soon, you know.

Speaker 1 And what was it like to be able to be with your brother

Speaker 1 freely, right? Not in a visiting room, not of anyone monitoring what you were saying or what you should or shouldn't do.

Speaker 2 It's the best feeling in the world, you know? Like we're

Speaker 2 right now in the process of, you know, building a relationship as two grown men, you know, with kids. And, and, and, you know, I was a, I was a teenager when he, when he went away.

Speaker 2 And, um, you know, he was going through everything that he was going through. So we, you know, wasn't as close back then.

Speaker 2 So now that, you know, we're both, you know, free and grown and able to just, you know, build a new relationship. And

Speaker 2 it means the world.

Speaker 1 Did it feel surreal driving away?

Speaker 2 Yes. Yes,

Speaker 2 it felt like, you know, because I had drove down that same road plenty of times, like going to a trip or going to medical trips, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 That's the only time you really leave the facility, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 So, you know, the ride down that same road,

Speaker 2 like, and knowing I'm not coming back. You know, knowing that I don't have to come back that day,

Speaker 2 you know, stuff like that, it was definitely surreal.

Speaker 1 Steve, what is it like knowing that Trevell is out now, home?

Speaker 3 Well, Trevelle, you know, I mentioned this to him. There's a group called the Clemency Collective, which is 22 people who receive clemency.

Speaker 3 And there's a planned meeting to kind of welcome the newest member of the collective, which makes everybody pretty excited.

Speaker 3 But the other part of it is, and this is not to put a burden, you know, I'm saying this with Trevelle right here, but,

Speaker 3 you know, to the extent that it fits within his life to be sort of a spokesperson when the time comes, you know, for clemency, for what it meant for him, for what it means for others.

Speaker 3 You know, I'll say this other part too. When he got clemency, word spread so fast.
And I don't mean just, I mean, everywhere actually, but in the legal community, people knew about it.

Speaker 3 The governor's office obviously knew that he got parole.

Speaker 3 So it'd send a message. you know, because he's known to people, right? And so him getting clemency, him making parole, it reverberates.
My hope is it opens the door a little bit for others.

Speaker 1 Have these past four weeks been what you expected them to be, been what you thought about they would be when, you know, two years ago or three years ago, you were thinking, if there's a day when I'm out, has it lived up to what you thought it would be?

Speaker 2 Yes, I could say it has.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to.

Speaker 2 You know, I really didn't think about going home a lot, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Because I just, you know, that's just not, you know, healthy to do when you, you know, in there because, you know, you start thinking and you start getting anxious and, you know, you know, so I tried to just, from time to time, coming home did cross my mind, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 It was just a happy feeling, you know, of like, wow, maybe one day this will be over, you know.

Speaker 2 So for me to come home, it's that feeling manifested, you know. So

Speaker 2 I feel the joy that I thought I would feel, you know.

Speaker 2 When I I first came home, you know,

Speaker 2 it's definitely a difference. You notice that, you know, wow, you know, I'm able to, you know, do certain things, certain liberties are restored.
But, you know, it's kind of like riding a bike.

Speaker 2 Like, you really think,

Speaker 2 you know, you never really forget how it is to just be able to just move, you know?

Speaker 1 What was it like to be with your sons and daughter? I mean, what...

Speaker 1 You know, you talked about that when, you know, being out with them. And have you gotten to spend a lot of time with them since?

Speaker 2 I mean, I've got to spend not as much time as I would like, you know, but like I would like to like take a trip with them and like go somewhere and, you know, be able to relax and wake up and be with them again, you know, like things like that.

Speaker 2 But, you know, with the curfew that I have in the place where I'm staying. It's not, you know, that's not really, really possible.
Like right now, you know, I still got to come home every night.

Speaker 2 I mean, come back to that place place every night so i haven't had a chance to really like you know spend nights with them and stuff like that when that trip does happen where do you want to take everyone i don't know i would like to go with my kids i would like to take them to somewhere fun i'm trying to get away from saying disney world but you know

Speaker 1 are they too old for disney world

Speaker 2 nah no nobody's ever too old disney world so

Speaker 2 i'm probably gonna

Speaker 2 something like that you know what i mean i would want to take i don't want to take them to something like that.

Speaker 2 I also want to just experience things with them, you know, experience seeing different things. It doesn't have to be super exciting or anything.

Speaker 2 Just, you know, maybe just seeing, you know, a certain region or, you know, something like that.

Speaker 1 At his parole hearing last month, Trevell submitted a personal statement. In it, he wrote,

Speaker 1 By no means do I believe that I'm excused for taking Mr. Henkel's life.

Speaker 1 What I expect of myself is to be aware of the second chance at life I have been given and to be an example of love, mercy, truth, and forgiveness.

Speaker 1 Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer.
Katie Bishop is our supervising producer.

Speaker 1 Our producers are Susannah Robertson, Jackie Sejiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison, and Megan Kinnane. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti.

Speaker 1 Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com.
And you can sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal.com slash newsletter.

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Speaker 1 You'll get bonus behind-the-scene episodes twice a month with even more stories, like this week's episode about a man who planted 33 pipe bombs all over New York City and was finally caught using one of the first instances of criminal profiling.

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Speaker 1 I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.

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