Kids on the Case

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Speaker 3 I've always just naturally been curious. Like I've been a natural investigator my entire life.

Speaker 4 This is Jessica Maple. Back in 2011, she was finishing sixth grade and starting to make plans for her perfect summer.
And what she really wanted to do was go to a policy debate camp.

Speaker 3 And then my mother said, hey, Jessica, I just got an email from the school and the county is going to have a junior district attorney camp.

Speaker 4 Jessica was annoyed that her mother assumed that district attorney camp would be anything like policy debate camp. She was 12.

Speaker 3 And I'm just like, mom, I'm not into this type of stuff, so

Speaker 3 I don't want to go. And she's like, well, you're going anyway.
So I was a bit upset until I went that first day.

Speaker 4 For years, district attorney Paul Howard led camps for Atlanta's middle school students.

Speaker 4 Campers didn't swim or canoe or make friendship bracelets. They spent their days at police stations and observing criminal trials.
They had to abide by the junior DA creed.

Speaker 4 On the first day of camp, each camper was issued a uniform.

Speaker 3 We had this giant oversized kind of blazer with a police badge.

Speaker 3 We wore khaki pants and polos.

Speaker 3 So we were all matching.

Speaker 3 And, you know, we had the district attorney come in and then some of the attorneys that he works with and they were saying, hey, everybody, welcome to Junior District Attorney Camp.

Speaker 3 And at the end of this camp, you guys are going to be like district attorneys.

Speaker 4 Jessica loved it, everything about it. Every day after her camp, her mother would pick her up and Jessica would tell her who she met and what she'd learned.

Speaker 4 But one day, She got in the car and her mother was upset.

Speaker 3 And then she explained to me that someone broke into her grandmother's house and we don't know who did it. They took a lot of things.

Speaker 3 And so she was really upset because that's actually where she grew up.

Speaker 3 So she held a lot of memories there and it just was really upsetting to her because it's just having someone invade a space that's special to you is very emotional.

Speaker 4 When Jessica's great grandmother passed away years earlier, The family kept her house in the small town of Fitzgerald, Georgia, exactly how she'd left it. Until someone broke in and took everything.

Speaker 3 Her dining room set was gone, her washer and dryer was gone, her sofa was gone, somebody took all of her like crystal vases.

Speaker 3 They took her record console, the bedroom sets were gone. It was pretty empty.
It just looked like somebody came in and moved out.

Speaker 4 Her washer and dryer.

Speaker 3 A washer and dryer, yes. And the oven too.

Speaker 4 Jessica says that a police officer told her mother that the odds of finding the person or people who did this weren't good. He sort of insinuated the family was at fault somehow.

Speaker 3 And the police officer was just like, did you guys give anybody a key?

Speaker 3 Because it just looks like somebody had a key because there's like no forced points of entry or anything. And it just seems like that's the only thing that happened here.

Speaker 4 After the police left, Jessica and her mother stayed behind, giving everything another look.

Speaker 3 I actually went around to the side of the house where the garage was, and by the garage door windows, there were three little fingerprints.

Speaker 3 And I remember in junior DA camp, I was like, oh, fingerprints, this is definitely some evidence. So we can send this off to the GPI, and then we can find whoever broke into my grandmother's house.

Speaker 4 The GBI is the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. Jessica's mother called the police and asked them to come back to have a a look at the fingerprints.

Speaker 3 And so I showed that to them and they were just like, that's not enough. We need at least like, you know, seven fingerprints.
It's going to take entirely too long.

Speaker 4 And at this point, you were thinking, I don't think that I can count on the police to solve this crime. It's up to me.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. I was just like, okay, I have the tools and the knowledge on how to solve this crime.
So now we're going to investigate this and figure out who did this. Because I'm pretty unhappy.

Speaker 3 My mother was upset, my dad's upset,

Speaker 3 and I just want to get to the bottom of this.

Speaker 4 Did you say to your mother at any point, don't worry, I've got this. I'm on it.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 I told her, I was like, hey, mom, I'm going to figure this out and we're going to figure out who did this because justice needs to be served.

Speaker 4 Jessica began her investigation.

Speaker 4 I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal.

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Speaker 4 jessica maple's first step was to go around her great-grandmother's house and take note of everything that was missing she made a checklist and so i was just like okay i remember how old this looks we even have photos so it's time to essentially search for these items did you have a little notebook i did

Speaker 4 were you wearing your badge

Speaker 3 no i left the badge at home i should have had it with me i would have looked way more official.

Speaker 4 I would have been wearing the badge. I don't think I'd ever taken the badge off.

Speaker 4 After Jessica cataloged everything that was missing, she started thinking about the next logical step.

Speaker 3 So the town's not that big. So there are about like three pawn shops.
And one of these pawn shops was actually on the same street as my grandmother's house.

Speaker 4 When you said to your mother, we're going to the pawn shop, what was her response?

Speaker 3 She was just like, okay, I know you have these junior DA skills, so I'm just going to listen to you. We're just going to follow what you say, and we're just going to go.

Speaker 4 They walked into the pawn shop and started looking around.

Speaker 3 And then, lo and behold, I see my grandmother's living room set and her dining room set. And it's set up like it's like a little furniture shop.
And it's just there.

Speaker 3 And I look at my mom like, mom, wow. And she takes out like her envelope full of her like childhood photos.
And it's like her as a kid in front of this, the same exact dining room set.

Speaker 4 The owner of the pawn shop came over and asked if they needed help.

Speaker 3 I said, yes, sir. In fact, I do.

Speaker 4 Jessica asked the owner of the pawn shop to tell her everything he knew about this table and chairs.

Speaker 3 He said, well, two men brought this in and,

Speaker 3 you know, they just took it off their truck and they brought it in here. And so I asked him, I said, hey,

Speaker 3 do you mind giving me like photocopies of their IDs?

Speaker 3 And he was like,

Speaker 3 why do you need it? I said, well, this furniture was stolen from my grandmother's house. And he was like, oh, okay, I'll be right back.

Speaker 4 The pawn shop owner gave Jessica a form that included scans of two young men's IDs. She and her mother drove straight to the police station.

Speaker 3 So I got out the car and I felt pretty confident. I was just like, okay, I think I solved this.

Speaker 3 So I go inside of the police station and I find the officer, well, the investigator who is on the case. And so I pass it to him and I say, hey, I did your job again.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 on this. form I have like the IDs of the guys who did it so now you guys can go out and arrest them

Speaker 3 and then the police officer well, the investigator, he said, well, we can't quite do that.

Speaker 3 We have to do our own investigation.

Speaker 4 Jessica decided that the police could continue their investigation and she would continue hers.

Speaker 4 She had the names and addresses of the people who pawned the furniture and she asked her mother if they could go to one of the houses just to see if anyone was around.

Speaker 3 And so We passed by the house. My mom was just like, hey, do you see that person outside? And so I turn and it's a young man and his mother sitting outside on their porch.

Speaker 3 And I told her, I was like, hey, mom, I think that's him. It looks just like him.

Speaker 4 Jessica didn't hesitate. She jumped out of the car and marched up to the porch.

Speaker 3 So I walk up and I'm like, hello, I'm Jessica.

Speaker 4 Her mother was trailing behind.

Speaker 3 And they turn around and they look at me and they're just like, oh, hello, Jessica. And I say, You look very familiar, sir.
And the young man looks up at me. He's like, what?

Speaker 3 I was like, yes, you look very familiar. And so then I pull out like the little sheet where like the ID is and I'm like, is this you? And he's like,

Speaker 3 yes, this, this is me. And then the mother was just like, okay, what's going on here? And then I said, you know that house? And then I mentioned the street where my grandmother's house was.

Speaker 3 He said, yeah, I know that house. I'm like, oh, really?

Speaker 3 Well, did you happen to take some furniture to a pawn shop? And he pretty much gave himself away at that point because, you know, he couldn't deny it because that's him on the pawn shop little form.

Speaker 3 And he's just like,

Speaker 3 yeah,

Speaker 3 I did. And I was like, well, did you, you know, break into this house, you know, my grandmother's house? And he's all like, yeah, I did.
And his mother was like, oh my gosh, what?

Speaker 4 Jessica and her mother drove back to the police station so Jessica could tell the investigator that not only had she found one of the suspects, but she had also obtained a confession.

Speaker 4 The owner of the pawn shop agreed to return her grandmother's items.

Speaker 4 When Jessica went back to camp that Monday, all of the campers were asked to describe one way in which Junior District Attorney Camp had been helpful in their real lives.

Speaker 4 When Jessica told her story, no one could believe it. And then the rest of the country found out about it, too.
Here she is, being interviewed with District Attorney Paul Howard on National News.

Speaker 7 So, what was the response that you got when you pointed out this clue that you found?

Speaker 8 Well, when they came, they're all they said, Wow.

Speaker 8 And that was it.

Speaker 7 So, so now you talk to the manager, what happens?

Speaker 8 He like brings out two sheets of paper and it had IDs on them. And I thought to myself, this is really helpful.

Speaker 8 Then he finally admitted it.

Speaker 7 You got him to craft. Yes.
Confess. Yes.
Right there on the street.

Speaker 7 Well, this, this is,

Speaker 7 I mean, it's amazing, but it's beyond amazing. I mean, how old are you? I'm 12.

Speaker 3 12 years old.

Speaker 4 What did your mother say at the end of this all?

Speaker 3 My mother said, Jessica, you are so smart. You're so bright.
You are so intelligent. Like, you are amazing for solving this.
And you pretty much did this all on your own. Like,

Speaker 3 You're great. And I knew you going to junior DA camp.
I knew that was such a great idea. And I looked at her and I said, you're right, mom.
You're right.

Speaker 1 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 4 What did you say to your to your mother? What did you say when you walked in the door?

Speaker 9 I was like, mom, the craziest thing just happened.

Speaker 4 This is Griffin Steele. He's ten now, but when he was seven, he found something very strange.
Can you tell me about that day? Take me through that day.

Speaker 10 Okay, so

Speaker 9 my dad had to go to Lowe's and ask me if I wanted to come with him, so I did. And then after that, we decided to stop by our local speedway.

Speaker 4 That's a gas station.

Speaker 9 Yes, it is.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 so we went in the store and my dad bought me a cherry-flavored Gatorade.

Speaker 9 And I finished drinking the Gatorade pretty early. So I went to throw it away on the trash can that was outside.

Speaker 9 And then I look in the trash can and I find that there's like

Speaker 9 a ton of money in there.

Speaker 4 How much money did it seem like?

Speaker 9 From looking at it, I didn't have much perspective back then, but I would say that it was probably

Speaker 9 a little bit more than $10,000 maybe.

Speaker 4 $10,000?

Speaker 4 I bet that's the most money you'd ever seen in your life.

Speaker 9 Besides on TV, yes.

Speaker 12 Well, I mean, I was a little bit...

Speaker 12 I was confused when he said, hey, dad, look at this trash can. It's full of money.

Speaker 13 And I said, what?

Speaker 4 Griffin's dad, Shane Steel.

Speaker 12 And I walked over there and, I mean,

Speaker 12 you know, it's just something you never see. I was trying to figure out what to do because it was a very public place.
There was cars everywhere. And,

Speaker 12 you know, I'm standing there with this trash can full of money and trying to figure out how to get it out of public view without looking like I'm doing something wrong. So

Speaker 12 I just decided to just the bag was it was a brand new trash can that didn't have anything in it except the money. So I just folded it up, tied it up, and put it in the back of my truck.

Speaker 12 But, you know, the whole time it was like answering that question: like, what would you do if you found a bunch of money on the side of the road?

Speaker 10 It was

Speaker 9 strange because, like, a lot of it was covered in red dye.

Speaker 9 I asked the dad why it was covered in red, and he said that there were exploded die packs on it because whenever there was a bank robbery, they would put

Speaker 9 die packs inside the

Speaker 9 mixed in with the other

Speaker 9 mixed in with the normal money so that whenever they stole it there was like a trip by the door so as soon as that happened the die packs would explode and it would cover all the money in red die

Speaker 12 and it was still hot you know the money was still hot so it obviously just that die pack just went off like maybe 15 minutes at the most before we found it so

Speaker 11 yeah

Speaker 4 Shane and Griffin called a friend who was a police officer to ask what they should do. He told told them that there had been a bank robbery just 45 minutes ago.

Speaker 4 So they called 911 and sat down on a bench to wait. Shane took a picture of Griffin with the money.

Speaker 9 It's just me with like,

Speaker 9 I'm like gasping, and I have like all the money in front of me inside the trash bag. And it's like

Speaker 9 it's one of the biggest mistakes of a picture I've ever put online.

Speaker 4 Because your mouth is wide open?

Speaker 9 Yeah, it's

Speaker 9 very cringeworthy.

Speaker 4 Police in Horry County, South Carolina, arrested a man a few days later who had allegedly robbed the bank on the day Griffin found the money, as well as another bank a few days earlier.

Speaker 4 He was convicted of grand larceny, two counts of entering a bank with intent to steal, and second-degree burglary.

Speaker 4 Did you tell your friends?

Speaker 9 Um, yes, as a child, I was

Speaker 11 uh

Speaker 13 annoying, annoying.

Speaker 9 So I was basically going around and bragging to people, oh, look what I'd found.

Speaker 4 But do you think that you've grown out of being annoying now at almost 11? Okay, it was just a phase.

Speaker 14 Correct. Okay.

Speaker 14 Well, they always seem to get themselves in crazy situations.

Speaker 4 Griffin's mother, Carol Steele. She says the bank that had been robbed gave Griffin a $250 reward on one of those oversized novelty checks.

Speaker 14 A huge check, as tall as he was at the time, and it's still in his bedroom now. Oh, he's carrying it around the house.

Speaker 3 He's carrying it.

Speaker 12 He has that check that's hanging on the side of his room.

Speaker 4 Griffin's older brother, Jackson, he's 13. So every time you walk into his room, you have to see the check.

Speaker 12 Yes.

Speaker 4 Do you two get along generally?

Speaker 12 A lot better this year.

Speaker 4 Okay, he told me he used to be annoying.

Speaker 12 Well, he wasn't the one that...

Speaker 12 He wasn't annoying. It was just me being a jerk.

Speaker 4 Oh, really? Well, that's a nice brother.

Speaker 4 Both of you are really generous to admit being annoying and you admit being a jerk. That's nice.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 4 What's he like? Is he kind of a kid that is always getting into things, kind of like a detective?

Speaker 14 He is actually the family snoop. So anytime that we misplace anything in the house, we ask Griffin where it is and he absolutely knows where it is.

Speaker 4 Like what? Your keys, your wallet?

Speaker 14 Yes, the remote controls. We're always asking him, where's the remote control?

Speaker 15 My tennis rackets. I hadn't played tennis in a while.

Speaker 14 And I said, Griffin, where are my tennis rackets?

Speaker 15 And he said, they're in the hallway closet at the very top of it.

Speaker 14 And I was like, you're too, what are you doing at the top of the hallway closet?

Speaker 4 He just, there's something about him he knows.

Speaker 14 Yes, exactly. And he's a helper, just a helper personality, too.

Speaker 4 Here's another story.

Speaker 4 Four years ago in a small village outside of London called Capel, the National Police Service got a call that an industrial facility had been broken into by at least two men.

Speaker 4 Rory Niblock is a tactical flight officer with the National Police Service.

Speaker 11 I work on the police helicopter.

Speaker 4 He says that a lot of the time he gets into his helicopter with very little information. So you knew that

Speaker 4 you were looking for people who had maybe broken in somewhere and they might be running. That's really all you knew.

Speaker 11 That's right. Yep.
Very limited descriptions, not overly familiar with the area, very rural, so

Speaker 11 plenty of places to hide, woodland, etc. So that's all we knew when we were en route.

Speaker 4 It took about 10 minutes to get to the right area, but by then there was no one anywhere in sight.

Speaker 11 So we started looking at nearby farms

Speaker 11 and it was at that stage that we saw neighbouring premises, people,

Speaker 11 farmers, etc. indicating, waving their hands saying you want to look that way, because

Speaker 11 we obviously didn't know what they wanted to say.

Speaker 4 So you were flying over and you'd look down and you'd see these people standing in their backyards and their fields waving their arms, you know, saying this way, this way.

Speaker 11 That's right, exactly that. And

Speaker 11 we're flying at between one and two thousand feet. So you can imagine people look fairly small on the ground.

Speaker 11 But you can make out that there were a number of people in adjacent property saying you need to search in that direction. And that's when we commenced the search.

Speaker 4 They had seen two guys running through their yard, obviously not supposed to be there.

Speaker 11 That's right. Yep.
Clearly trying to acting furtively. And they had no purpose to be, it's such a rural location.
They had no purpose to be there. So we were confident these were the people concerned.

Speaker 4 The two suspects ran together through farms and yards. And then, when they reached a wide open field, they split up and ran in opposite directions.

Speaker 4 There was no way to keep track of both men from the air. They knew one had run into the woods, and they'd lost track of the other one.

Speaker 11 It was then that when my colleague,

Speaker 11 Neil Parrick, the pilot, said, what are those kids doing down there?

Speaker 4 Rory looked out of the window and saw a group of small children. He later learned they were out hunting for Easter eggs.
He says kids love helicopters.

Speaker 4 He sees kids all the time and never pays very much attention.

Speaker 11 As you can imagine, any young child seeing a colourful helicopter circling in the air, they generally wave anyway and say, look at me, look at me, I'm bouncing on the trampoline, can you see me, kind of thing?

Speaker 11 So that's why you tend to dismiss

Speaker 11 what they're doing. So I initially sort of discounted what he was saying,

Speaker 11 as if to say, not now, Neil. You know, I'm following the suspect.
And he said, no, these kids are... These kids in the field are lying in the shape of an arrow.

Speaker 11 And then it became became apparent that the kids the group of children who were out on this east egg hunt were actually trying to assist saying the other suspect has gone this way

Speaker 4 how many how many kids were there

Speaker 11 there were actually 12 altogether but I think only eight of them I think the other some were didn't want to get muddy but eight of them I believe eight of them actually formed the arrow and

Speaker 11 blessed them in order to help their public duty. They were prepared to sacrifice their Sunday best clothing and lay in a cloud field.

Speaker 4 The helicopter followed the arrow and they found their suspect.

Speaker 4 Rory says both men were apprehended and charged with burglary.

Speaker 4 After they'd wrapped everything up, they landed the helicopter and Rory got out to say hello and thank you to these children who'd helped solve the case.

Speaker 11 The parents said it was the children's idea. They said we should form an LO.

Speaker 11 And I think if my young child said that to me, I'd probably prior to this event say, don't be silly.

Speaker 4 Rory says the kids offered him some of their Easter candy.

Speaker 4 Hello? Logan?

Speaker 10 Oh, yes, this is Logan.

Speaker 4 Hi, Logan. It's Phoebe.

Speaker 10 Oh, hello, Phoebe.

Speaker 4 How are you doing?

Speaker 4 Good. Thanks for doing this.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 10 We're trying to help out.

Speaker 4 So, Logan, let's just start with you introducing yourself.

Speaker 10 Um, so my name is Logan and

Speaker 10 like that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, tell me your first name and your last name.

Speaker 10 All right, um, I'm Logan Holtman, and yeah.

Speaker 4 How old are you?

Speaker 10 Um, I'm ten years old.

Speaker 4 Ten years old.

Speaker 5 Um

Speaker 4 what do you think you want to be when you grow up?

Speaker 10 Um,

Speaker 10 when I grow up I might want I think I might want to be either a detective or um

Speaker 10 a teacher maybe.

Speaker 4 Okay. Does it kind of go back and forth depending on the day? Yeah.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Last fall Logan was playing in his Roseville, California neighborhood with his friend Cashton. His friends Hope and McKenna were playing nearby.

Speaker 10 So my friends said they heard a helicopter saying,

Speaker 10 uh, somebody was missing, please help come find her.

Speaker 4 Coming down from the helicopter, like it was recording, like sending down.

Speaker 10 Yeah, it was a big microphone.

Speaker 4 On the helicopter.

Speaker 4 Okay, so the helicopter said, someone's missing, please help find her. Did it say who was missing?

Speaker 10 I think they said it was a 97-year-old lady.

Speaker 4 A woman who had dementia had gone missing from a residential care facility in the area. They needed to find her before it got dark, and it was already after four o'clock.

Speaker 10 So we decided to start looking and

Speaker 10 trying to find her.

Speaker 4 Logan and his three friends put together a plan and got on their bikes.

Speaker 10 We had a certain area actually. We knew she was in the neighborhood because we heard that she was from a care home somewhere and we were like she's probably on the trail.

Speaker 10 And we went down the trail and whenever we saw somebody, we'd ask them if they knew anything about it or if they could also start helping.

Speaker 10 So there's a police officer we found and he was telling us about her and we told him we'd look out. So we were looking down the trail and I skid my knee while we were there

Speaker 10 and then

Speaker 10 we went back home. Everybody ate dinner and my brother helped me get some band-aids on and

Speaker 10 um if you want to talk to my mom, she's making breakfast right now, but you'll be able to talk to her.

Speaker 4 It's okay.

Speaker 10 Oh, she's coming over right now.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Hello.

Speaker 4 Hi, this is Phoebe.

Speaker 13 Hi.

Speaker 4 Here's Logan's mother, Alyssa Holfman.

Speaker 13 I didn't really know what was happening until he came inside.

Speaker 13 And he, at that point, had been, you know, scratched up, so he fell down. And so that's when he told me that he had fallen down on this trail while they were looking for this lady.

Speaker 13 And I had heard the helicopters overhead, but I didn't realize that he and his friends had decided to go out and try to find her.

Speaker 13 So it was all kind of like unexpected news when he came running in the door telling me that you know he's trying to find this lady with his friends.

Speaker 13 Um, and so his brother that was here is a Boy Scout, so we call him the medic.

Speaker 13 And he, you know, got Logan all patched up, got him cleaned up, and then he said, Mom, I'm gonna go back out and we're gonna find her. And I was like, Okay, sweetheart.

Speaker 10 I packed up some snacks and we went looking again.

Speaker 4 What types of snacks did you pack?

Speaker 10 Uh, canola bars, fruit snacks, uh,

Speaker 10 like I think these little yogurt, go-gurt things.

Speaker 4 Okay. And so you put them in a little backpack or something?

Speaker 10 Uh, yeah.

Speaker 4 They went out again, this time on foot.

Speaker 10 And we were heading towards the trail to look there again,

Speaker 10 but we just found her walking around.

Speaker 4 And what did you say when you saw her?

Speaker 10 Uh, we were all like, oh, that guy, guys, that looks like her. And it was, it was, uh, the lady.

Speaker 4 Logan and his friends, Cashton, Hope, and McKenna, all went up to her and tried their best to make her feel comfortable. It was 6.30 and just starting to get dark.

Speaker 10 So Cash and Hope called their dad. He came over.

Speaker 10 And I didn't have my phone on me right at that second, so I wasn't able to call my mom.

Speaker 10 But we got the police and everybody to come by.

Speaker 10 Did you...

Speaker 4 Is this surprising for you that Logan would

Speaker 4 help with this charge and take this on or not that surprising?

Speaker 13 Well, I mean, he is such a great kid. I wasn't shocked that he decided to go out and try to help.

Speaker 13 I was just really surprised that it was he and a group of, you know, 10 and 11-year-olds that actually found her.

Speaker 4 Logan later told reporters, I like helping, except if it's chores.

Speaker 4 The woman was returned safely to her residential care center and reunited with her family. Logan and his friends had a party in a treehouse to celebrate.
They ate goldfish and watched TikToks.

Speaker 4 The Roseville police told reporters that they'd been a little surprised to hear such a young voice on the phone when they got the call.

Speaker 4 So, the police thanked you for helping them, huh?

Speaker 10 Later, they sent this little

Speaker 10 package or something.

Speaker 4 What was in the package?

Speaker 10 So, it had like a little Kit Kat bar and then

Speaker 10 a gift card to uh

Speaker 10 movie grill.

Speaker 10 Studio movie grill.

Speaker 4 To the studio movie grill.

Speaker 10 And the thank you letter.

Speaker 4 Did did your friends get the thank-you letter too?

Speaker 10 Mm-hmm. We all got the same thing and it was really nice.

Speaker 4 Did you did you learn anything about about being a detective during this whole thing?

Speaker 10 Well, that you have to kind of piece things together and you're gonna have to... It might take a long time because we spent like two hours trying to find her.

Speaker 4 But you didn't give up?

Speaker 10 No.

Speaker 4 Why did you want to help find her? What were you thinking about?

Speaker 10 Because she needed help.

Speaker 1 Criminal is created by Lauren Spohr and me.

Speaker 4 Needy Wilson Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer.
Our producers are Susannah Robertson, Jackie Sagico, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison, and Megan Kinnane.

Speaker 4 Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti.

Speaker 4 This episode was mixed by Rob Byers and Michael Rayfield.

Speaker 4 Special thanks to Matthew Majack.

Speaker 4 Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com.
And you can sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal.com newsletter.

Speaker 1 We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal Plus.

Speaker 4 You can listen to Criminal, This Is Love, and Phoebe Reads a Mystery without any ads. Plus, you'll get bonus episodes.
To learn more, go to thisiscriminal.com/slash plus.

Speaker 4 We're on Facebook at Criminal Show and Instagram at criminal underscore podcast.

Speaker 5 We're also on YouTube at youtube.com/slash criminal podcast.

Speaker 4 Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.

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Speaker 6 This message comes from ATT. America's first network is also its fastest and most reliable.

Speaker 6 Based on RootMetrics United States Root Score Report, first half 2025, tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types.

Speaker 6 Your experiences may vary. Root Metrics rankings are not an endorsement of ATT.
When you compare, there's no comparison. ATT.