Talking Dateline: Wrong Turns

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Speaker 11 Hello, everybody. I'm Keith Morrison, and we are talking Dateline.
Today, I'm here with... Oh, we couldn't get anybody else.
So it's Josh Mankiewicz. Hello, Josh.
Hi.

Speaker 11 So we're going to talk about this episode, right? Which is called Wrong Terms. Named after my career, yes.

Speaker 11 Yeah, that's that's accurate. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed.

Speaker 11 So go there and listen to it and stream it on Peacock and then come back here. And there are spoilers here, of course, so be careful about that.

Speaker 11 For this talking dateline, Josh has a never-before-heard clip from his interview with Detective Stoyer. Did I get that right, Josh? Stoyer?

Speaker 11 That's his name.

Speaker 11 But to recap, when Justin Hilbert's body was found on the side of the road, investigators never imagined another murder would help them piece together the question of who killed Justin.

Speaker 11 Investigators uncovered a murder plot fueled by greed and jealousy, but one which went horribly wrong.

Speaker 11 The intended victim survived, but her boyfriend Justin, and one of her boyfriend's killers, was killed as well. Josh, let's talk.
Dateline. This was quite a remarkable story.

Speaker 11 I mean, it was one of those stories, Josh, it seems to me, that you say if it was fiction, you wouldn't believe it. It just seemed too fanciful, too strange.

Speaker 11 I mean, it's nuts, and it's astonishing for its sort of audacity and its just absolute evilness

Speaker 11 and greed and jealousy and hatred and stunning incompetence by the criminals

Speaker 11 who, you know, blurted out their plan right in front of somebody else who ended up talking with law enforcement.

Speaker 11 And look, we've done, you and I have done plenty of stories before in which somebody kills their spouse for the insurance money.

Speaker 11 But this is a little bit different because, first of all, that insurance policy was in its last hours of life, which meant the killing had to happen within a very finite period of time.

Speaker 11 So Tanya had to die then,

Speaker 11 and they couldn't make it happen, and then everything fell apart after that. What was it like to sit with Tanya and talk to a woman who you knew and she knew was to be the target of a murder plot?

Speaker 11 And somehow she managed to survive, but her husband died. Without her, I don't know that we could have done this story because this is kind of her story.

Speaker 11 She's the intended victim, although she didn't leave her house that night and so therefore didn't get killed.

Speaker 11 And she's also the victim because the father of her child and the man that she, I think, really had loved since they were about 14 years old was taken from her.

Speaker 11 And as murder will often, it seems to have broken the relationship between Tonya and Justin's parents. Which I feel very bad about.

Speaker 11 Originally, they were going to the court hearings and motion hearings and status conferences together to sort of show this united front for Justin.

Speaker 11 But, you know, Justin's parents are sort of unable to get past the idea that without his involvement with Tanya, he's still alive. They certainly don't believe that she had anything to do with it.

Speaker 11 And I don't think anybody thinks that this could have been foreseen.

Speaker 11 But that said, you know, the mom said to me, you know, Justin's mom, like, look, if they're not together, if they don't get reinvolved,

Speaker 11 my son's still alive. That may not be a rational thing, but it's what the parents are dealing with.
It's just hard, too hard.

Speaker 11 Because those parents, every minute, every minute of the day, they're thinking about their son.

Speaker 11 Every time they wake up in the morning and go to bed at night, that's the only thing they can think about.

Speaker 11 And if she reminds them of that even more, I can see why they couldn't do it. Aaron Trevor Barrett, how soon in the process did Dateline begin to cover this story?

Speaker 11 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I think we began to cover it fairly quickly. It took a very long time to get from murder to courtroom.
And partly that's because this plot took a while to unravel.

Speaker 11 And in part because, you know, COVID, I think, is still

Speaker 11 a sort of bomb that was dropped into the criminal justice world.

Speaker 11 And the ripples, you know, are still being felt because stuff got delayed, and therefore other things got delayed, and just everything takes longer now.

Speaker 11 Is there a scenario that if Bailey wasn't killed, do you think investigators would ever have figured this out?

Speaker 11 You know, there's no way to know, obviously. I mean, you know, there's a couple of different schools of thought about Bailey.
One is that, you know, she was killed because

Speaker 11 Jared thought she was the weak link and she was going to talk. You know, but look, you've got a very sort of

Speaker 11 this triumvirate of evil.

Speaker 11 I mean, you get Jared Bischoff, this controlling Navy guy who, you know, married Tanya, treated her horribly, and then wanted to exact some vengeance when she left him and they got divorced.

Speaker 11 You have Bailey Sharp, who was Jared's new girlfriend and co-conspirator, and she went along with this, and the prosecutor made it very clear to us if she were alive, she would be facing a murder charge, no question.

Speaker 11 And Danny Serrano,

Speaker 11 you know, probably the muscle here, and also a career criminal with the proverbial rap sheet as long as your arm, and a very sophisticated guy because when they find his DNA and fingerprints on Justin's car, he cops the auto theft to give himself an alibi for murder.

Speaker 11 Which brings us to the different jurisdictions problems. In that one police department was investigating one murder, a different police department, the other murder.

Speaker 11 And, you know, it took a long time for one to figure out what the other was doing. And they're right in the same place.
Riverside Police investigated Bailey's murder.

Speaker 11 Riverside County Sheriff's Office investigated Justin's murder and that plot.

Speaker 11 And it wasn't clear until Ricky, who'd spoken to Riverside Police, ended up speaking to the Riverside Sheriff's Office that the sort of dimensions of that plot became clear.

Speaker 11 Tell me about a little bit more about, what was his name, Alcoholic Ricky? Alcoholic Ricky. Well, Alcoholic Ricky was in Bailey's phone.
That was his name in the phone. He worked at the Hookah Lounge.

Speaker 11 He'd gotten to know Jared and

Speaker 11 Bailey and Danny Serrano, who were occasional customers there, and overheard this conversation about how

Speaker 11 if Jared's wife died, Jared would get an insurance payout. And he's the person, Ricky's the person,

Speaker 11 who sort of made that connection to investigators. Without him, I don't think there would have been a case, really, would there?

Speaker 11 I think they didn't know what the motive was. Was Ricky ever the subject of any suspicion at all on the part of investigators? I don't believe that he was ever under suspicion.

Speaker 11 At one point, as we talk about in the story,

Speaker 11 Ricky discloses something that he hadn't talked about earlier, which was that when Danny

Speaker 11 Serrano comes back from what appears to be

Speaker 11 Justin's actual killing, Ricky describes him as having bloody clothing. That doesn't change.
What did change is that Danny apparently gave Ricky the bloody clothing and said, get rid of this.

Speaker 11 And Ricky did, because I think he was terrified of these guys.

Speaker 11 In Ricky's case, one wonders what would have happened had he known who to call, because it wasn't who you would expect it to be from his point of view.

Speaker 11 This has happened to a lot of people, but I'll tell a small story.

Speaker 11 My car was broken into some time ago. The only important thing that was stolen out of the car was my iPad.

Speaker 11 And, you know, you want your iPad, so I called the police as part of this. Eventually, somebody came around.

Speaker 11 Let me just parenthetically say that I'm sort of astonished that the police did not snap to attention when it was your voice on the phone.

Speaker 11 Eventually they came around, looked at the broken window, and they said they'd do what they could.

Speaker 11 But I could see that the iPad was moving out of their jurisdiction. One small town to the next small town, to the next small town, to the next small town.
Now there are four police departments.

Speaker 11 And I don't know where the darn thing is, right? Pardon my French.

Speaker 11 And so you have to know which police department to call because you don't know who's investigating what. And in Ricky's case, I mean, how would he know who was investigating this case?

Speaker 11 Did that make any sense, what I just said to you? Yes, although I'm anxious to hear the end now of that story and whether or not you actually got your iPad back. I did find it, yeah.

Speaker 11 I found it on my phone. You did get it back.
But really, but not from the police.

Speaker 11 Although they were nice

Speaker 11 guys and they put a little bit of effort into it, but they've got more important things to do than finding

Speaker 11 some old dude's iPad. But you got it it back because what you bought it back from the 50s? I found it using the Find My iPhone app thing.

Speaker 11 And what went there and duked it out with the guy? This is where I want this story to go.

Speaker 11 Yes, absolutely. I had a fist fight and I took him down, by golly.

Speaker 11 That's what we need more of on Talking Dayline. That's right.
Telling us about the fights he got into. It was buried under a bush.

Speaker 11 Not buried exactly, but it was hidden underneath a bush beside the road, not far from

Speaker 11 a

Speaker 11 fast food place, where I think the thief actually was at the time that I found the iPad. That's a good story.
Thank you. Right? And then, as I recall, that's not the end of the story, is it?

Speaker 11 Then you went into the fast food place and said, who just ordered a knuckle sandwich? And the next thing you know, that guy was making out with the floor. You bet.
You bet.

Speaker 11 That's my way of doing business. That's the Keith I know.

Speaker 11 You bet. When we get back, we've got a clip from Josh's interview with Detective Stoyer.
He'll tell us what it was like sitting face to face with the parents of a suspected killer.

Speaker 1 Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, The Three Questions with Andy Richter.

Speaker 4 Each week, I invite friends, comedians, actors, and musicians to discuss these three questions.

Speaker 3 Where do you come from? Where are you going? And what have you learned?

Speaker 5 New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bow and Ted Danson, Tig Nataro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more.

Speaker 2 You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call-in show episodes, where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating disasters, bad teachers, and lots more.

Speaker 10 Listen to the three questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 11 So, you sat down with Detective Stoyer, Josh, to talk motives for Danny, Jared, and Bailey with regard to Justin's murder, and what it was like telling Bailey's parents about her involvement in his death.

Speaker 11 That detective had a job to do, that's for sure. So here is a clip that did not make it into the episode.

Speaker 11 What's the driving force here? Is this money? Is this jealousy? Is this hatred?

Speaker 11 I think it's a little bit all three. And I think it was different for each person.

Speaker 11 It looked like Danny was motivated strictly by greed.

Speaker 11 Bailey, obviously, money again.

Speaker 11 But Jarrett,

Speaker 11 money, all three, money, hatred, jealousy.

Speaker 11 And it just

Speaker 11 pushed him to that point.

Speaker 11 Over a very long period of time, Bailey Sharp went from victim to unindicted co-conspirator and only unindicted because she'd been murdered. Yeah.
How do you tell her parents that?

Speaker 11 It's a difficult conversation.

Speaker 11 But just

Speaker 11 the family had struggled with Bailey for some time. An unfortunate but inevitable, I think, result, given the

Speaker 11 lifestyle that she had fallen into. I think this was very difficult for

Speaker 11 Sergeant Stewyer because, you know, normally when you are a police officer and you're making a death notification, like that's hard enough to talk to grieving parents and say, your son or daughter is no longer with us.

Speaker 11 It's something else to say, you know, your son or daughter is no longer with us. And if they were,

Speaker 11 they'd be on trial for murder. Now, Bailey's, that didn't happen in that conversation.
Bailey's family didn't learn about that for a while.

Speaker 11 But like, that's a double whammy, which is you've lost your kid. And by the way, because they were involved in a murder plot.

Speaker 11 And I, and my heart broke for the parents of Bailey, who had struggled clearly with her addiction problems for a long time. You know, we've seen parents on Dateline

Speaker 11 who enable their kids, who make excuses for their kids, who lie for their kids, who give alibis, who hide evidence, who like, you know, do everything they can to get their kid off the hook.

Speaker 11 Bailey's parents aren't like that at all. They completely recognize what happened here.

Speaker 11 It tears them up that this addiction that they were really hoping that she was going to get past ended up being sort of the thing that connected her to this murder plot.

Speaker 11 I mean, her dad's a detective with Seattle PD. And I said to him, like, you know, I'm sure you said to her, don't hang out with the wrong kind of people.
I'm sure you said, you know,

Speaker 11 don't get involved with drugs. And I'm sure you told her, try to get off drugs once you're on drugs.

Speaker 11 And I said to him, but you probably didn't need to tell her or thought you didn't need to tell her, don't get involved in a murder plot. But she did.

Speaker 11 I mean, and they're not, they don't apologize for that. They don't explain it.
They don't try to lessen it.

Speaker 11 They are as horrified by it as any parent would be.

Speaker 11 And they're not pretending. And they see this very clearly, which is sort of another reason why

Speaker 11 you can't help but feel terrible for them. I was, I must say, a little surprised that they agreed to come on television and talk to you.
No, I mean, I,

Speaker 11 you know, I don't even think it was like taking their castor oil. I mean, it wasn't like they felt like they deserve some sort of, you know, you know, public discussion of this.
I mean,

Speaker 11 they were absolutely, completely upfront. They are ashamed of what she did.
You know, they spent a huge amount of time just thinking of her as a murder victim, which she was.

Speaker 11 And then later they realized, oh, she's also a murderer.

Speaker 11 And I thought their willingness to sit down and discuss this as forthrightly as they did was really nothing short of admirable. And

Speaker 11 your heart breaks for them. I thought it was very sensitively handled.
And

Speaker 11 I hate giving any credit to you, Michael Witz, because I deserve it.

Speaker 11 I know how that sticks in your throat. I know it does.
But then I know who you are working with on this story, so I understand. And they're much more talented than I am.
So that's, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Yes, Michelle Madigan is an amazing producer, partly because of the fact that she is an incredibly astute and sympathetic,

Speaker 11 understanding woman who knows what people are going through.

Speaker 11 She's a mom, and she's got kids, and she's, yeah, and that, I think, helps her connect with people. And Rebecca Glaser,

Speaker 11 also

Speaker 11 producing this episode, also a rising star at Dateline. No question about it.
Yeah, we have some wonderful people we work with. Well, listen, I noticed something

Speaker 11 about this episode, which I've noticed before, and I think that people who watch Dateline would like to know about a little style issue.

Speaker 11 You seem to sit at a desk or a table with the people on the other side talking to you. Is that the method you use for interviews? Well, this is going to be the.

Speaker 11 I thought the you getting in a fist fight part was going to be the best part of talking Dateline, but now I think this is going to be.

Speaker 11 So,

Speaker 11 I know that you traditionally work without notes because you know every detail of the story, absolutely cold. So, you can sit across from someone and you don't need any notes.

Speaker 11 I, on the other hand, am more of,

Speaker 11 you know, more of a mortal than you are.

Speaker 11 And I don't have your phenomenal memory or your command of the facts. Right.
Well, I'm aware of that.

Speaker 11 That being said, I mean, those are those are

Speaker 11 everyone is aware of that at daylight, yes. But I like to work off of notes.
I have all the questions written out

Speaker 11 in front of me,

Speaker 11 and I have them in very big type and bold because I don't wear contact lenses, and so I don't want to wear these glasses on television. I don't see why not.
They look pretty good on you.

Speaker 11 Eventually, I'm going to have to, but

Speaker 11 they look smarter, Josh.

Speaker 11 That's the point of those glasses.

Speaker 11 I could hardly look any dumber. So

Speaker 11 I'm sort of a detective.

Speaker 11 No. Sort of.
That's nice of you, but no.

Speaker 11 So I like to have all my notes in front of me, and I spread them out on a tabletop, which is why

Speaker 11 I have a table. And there's a table that some of our crews here in Los Angeles carry around with them.
So that same table has been in a bunch of different

Speaker 11 interviews in Southern California and elsewhere in the West. Yes.

Speaker 11 Wait a minute. They take it out of town?

Speaker 11 It has been taken out of town and brought back to town. It's just a very traditional folding table with a wooden top.
But it's,

Speaker 11 yeah, it's been in a lot of date lines. It has.
And it helps me because

Speaker 11 I can take notes on it.

Speaker 11 I can rest my elbows on it.

Speaker 11 You probably have a kind of an emotional connection to that table now.

Speaker 11 You use it so often.

Speaker 11 We're like this. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Yeah. I mean, closer than the one I have to you, let me just say.

Speaker 11 But that wouldn't take much. Yeah.

Speaker 11 And then one more thing about the table, which is that if the person across from you gets angry and tries to lunge at you,

Speaker 11 which has happened to me at least one time on dateline, you get the table there,

Speaker 11 which kind of slows them down and allows me to say, no, no, the person you really want is Keith Morrison.

Speaker 11 Yeah. No, when people lunge at me, they

Speaker 11 usually, you know.

Speaker 11 Actually, nobody's ever lunged at me, Josh. So that's something you've got over me.
Nobody? You ever made anybody so angry that they wanted to take a swing at you?

Speaker 11 I mean, I'm not talking about people who work at date line. I'm talking about people who are working on that.
I don't think so. I don't think so.
No. No.

Speaker 11 They may have thought those thoughts, but they didn't do anything with them. Sure, it's occurred to them.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right. Thank you, Josh.
I appreciate that.

Speaker 11 I think we're going to talk to Michelle Madigan in a moment. About social media questions, yes.
Until we meet again, Josh. Until we meet again.

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Speaker 15 Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Madigan, one of the producers of this episode Wrong Turns.
It turns out both Josh and Keith are filming today.

Speaker 15 So my co-producer, Rebecca Glazer, and I are here and we'll go through your questions from social media.

Speaker 11 Hi, Rebecca. Hi, Michelle.

Speaker 15 So Rebecca Rebecca was on X on Friday answering viewer questions.

Speaker 15 And I'm not sure if all of our listeners know that, but if you do watch the episode live, we have a producer online during the broadcast to answer the questions that come up.

Speaker 15 And, you know, Josh was online Friday too. So definitely if you're watching, join us on social media.
It's a... a lot of interaction and this one was was pretty active.

Speaker 15 Yeah, so there were a lot of comments on Facebook about the twists and turns of the case. So Bridget Falcons Taylor on Facebook said, that was one of the best episodes I've seen in a while.

Speaker 15 I kept having to rewind to make sure I understood what was happening. And then Nick Nero says, one of the best state lines ever and best is in all caps.
Lots of twists and turns.

Speaker 15 Michelle, it was kind of a twisty turny case for us to follow too, because we didn't even know who all the players were when we first started, right? Oh, exactly.

Speaker 15 Initially, I understood that there were two murders and two defendants, but I did not know how they were all connected. But one thing I knew was that Tanya, Justin's girlfriend, was going to be key.

Speaker 15 And I really needed to speak with her to help understand how all of them were connected.

Speaker 15 The big thing for me as the case was making its way through the system was to really learn more about Bailey Sharp. She was such a mystery to me.

Speaker 15 And I think she was a mystery to a lot of our audience too, right, Rebecca?

Speaker 15 Yeah, a lot of people on X thought that Bailey Sharp was a fake Facebook profile until the part of the episode where we found out that she had been murdered, which is something that we didn't even think about as we were writing.

Speaker 15 So that's sort of an interesting thing that we saw pop up.

Speaker 15 Rebecca, you were at the trial every day. What was it like to be in the courtroom? I mentioned this on X too, but it was fascinating to me how there were no other reporters in the courtroom.

Speaker 15 As the story of what happened started to unfold in trial, I was just more and more shocked that there was no one else there

Speaker 15 because it was it was so fascinating. What happened? I remember you called me and said something interesting happened during a break.
So the judge was off the bench and it was quiet.

Speaker 15 And I remember hearing someone say, Rebecca, and it was Jared. And he was looking right at me.
And it turned out he just, he wanted my business card and was interested in talking with me.

Speaker 15 But it's a little jarring to hear your name called out across the courtroom by the defendant.

Speaker 15 And he was actually interested in sitting down and doing an interview with us, but eventually his lawyer recommended against it just because the case is going through appeals and which is pretty standard.

Speaker 15 But he was interested in talking initially. This next topic is a big one.
On Facebook, a lot of people were talking about the broken relationship between Justin's family.

Speaker 15 and Tanya and her baby and Justin's baby Logan. Peg Watson Ebert said, Justin's parents are missing a relationship with their grandson.
Why would they do that?

Speaker 15 And then Jill Todd said, hopefully someday Justin's parents will be able to embrace their grandson and Tanya. You know, we can't judge.
We don't know all the dynamics.

Speaker 15 You know, everybody's going to go through this process very differently.

Speaker 15 You know, I think we addressed it in the story as much as we could, but that's a heavy part of this case that both Rebecca and I wanted to be very sensitive about. At the end of the day,

Speaker 15 it's their grieving process to go through. And, you know, they allowed us a window into a small part of that.

Speaker 15 And, you know, we we don't know how they'll feel in the future or really the full extent of of how they all feel about each other we can never understand that thank you so much for listening remember if you have any questions for us about our stories or dateline you can reach out to us on social at dateline nbc also get ready for keith's latest original podcast series the man in the black mask when a man goes missing from a movie set a real-life horror story unfolds beginning october 15th you can listen to the latest episodes completely free.

Speaker 15 Or to begin listening now, subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or DatelinePremium.com. I can't wait.
I love his podcasts.

Speaker 15 And of course, we'll see you on Fridays for Dateline on NBC.

Speaker 1 Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, The Three Questions with Andy Richter.

Speaker 4 Each week, I invite friends, comedians, actors, and musicians to discuss these three questions.

Speaker 3 Where do you come from? Where are you going? And what have you learned?

Speaker 5 New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bow and Ted Danson, Tig Nataro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more.

Speaker 2 You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call-in show episodes, where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating disasters, bad teachers, and lots more.

Speaker 10 Listen to the three questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.